The Tucker Carlson Show - August 14, 2026


Glenn Greenwald: Propaganda, Putin, AOC, and the New Movement Rising From the Ashes of MAGA


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 19 minutes

Words per minute

185.71

Word count

14,683

Sentence count

647

Harmful content

Misogyny

17

sentences flagged

Toxicity

30

sentences flagged

Hate speech

50

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
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00:00:30.000 Glenn Greenwald, thank you so much for doing this.
00:00:36.580 I'm so pleased that you're coming right now
00:00:38.820 because I need someone smarter than I am
00:00:40.600 to explain the connection that I feel
00:00:43.620 but can't quite articulate, and it's this.
00:00:45.440 So the Free Press, run by Barry Weiss,
00:00:48.160 and financed by others, of course,
00:00:50.960 just put out a video defending flock cameras.
00:00:54.360 And rather than playing it,
00:00:55.260 you can find it on the internet.
00:00:56.160 I'm just going to read you the description
00:00:57.320 in the headline, and here's what it is.
00:00:59.240 Ever feel like you're being watched?
00:01:01.520 This is the free press headline.
00:01:03.760 You might be right, but flock safety cameras aren't interested in you
00:01:07.840 unless you're a kidnapper, a thief, or up to no good. 0.77
00:01:12.800 And it's like literally Soviet propaganda. 0.51
00:01:15.520 You know, if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear.
00:01:18.400 As long as your soul is right with the party, you're okay.
00:01:22.620 Don't worry about the Panopticon. 0.94
00:01:25.720 So this is obviously disgusting. 0.68
00:01:27.420 it's anti-American, it's totalitarian, but it's also not that surprising coming from 0.69
00:01:33.520 the neocon oracle known as the free press. I can't quite explain why that's not surprising to me.
00:01:39.260 Why is their support of flock cameras consistent with their support of, say, the war with Iran?
00:01:46.160 Well, let's remember it was about 12, 13 years ago that we started the Snowden reporting
00:01:50.960 that really was the first meaningful, broad-based reporting that showed that the goal of the U.S.
00:01:58.240 government was to create an absolutely ubiquitous surveillance state that monitored, collected,
00:02:04.240 stored highly invasive and revealing information, not about terror suspects or potential pedophiles,
00:02:09.700 but about every single one of us. A ubiquitous surveillance state is how they described it
00:02:13.940 internally and what it was. And obviously it had all sorts of connections to the military and to
00:02:20.220 foreign policy goals. In fact, its basis was in the NSA, which is a key part of the Defense
00:02:27.060 Department, of the military planning unit, the U.S. security state. And all along, they also had
00:02:32.800 a very close, really indispensable partnership with Silicon Valley, with the largest tech
00:02:37.980 companies. In fact, one of the earliest stories we did was about how the tech companies were just
00:02:42.300 handing over en masse whatever information the NSA wanted without warrants or anything else,
00:02:47.620 because those companies need to keep a good relationship with the government because that's
00:02:51.320 where they get most of their largest contracts from. There's really no separation between the
00:02:55.920 private and public sector. But the companies and the sector that is most financially interested
00:03:01.740 in this surveillance state are the people in Silicon Valley, the people who, for example,
00:03:07.120 are running Palantir and have gotten unimaginably wealthy, multi-billionaire wealth from helping not
00:03:15.080 only to create a surveillance state but then merging it with the u.s military and this is what
00:03:19.380 the israelis of course set up in in gaza and it's one of the reasons why a lot of people one of the
00:03:24.660 loudest ones being charlie kirk were so incredulous that october 7th could happen and the israeli
00:03:30.440 government just had no idea that it was coming because they have gaza under one of the most
00:03:34.700 extreme surveillance systems ever to exist in all of human history and a lot of the reporting we did
00:03:40.920 was about the partnership between the NSA and the Israelis
00:03:45.380 and the amount of just raw intelligence
00:03:47.060 the NSA turns over about American citizens
00:03:49.580 to the Israeli government.
00:03:51.320 So you have all these component parts,
00:03:53.300 Peter Thiel and Palantir and Alex Karp,
00:03:55.960 Andreessen Horowitz that has invested
00:03:57.500 in a lot of these AI surveillance companies,
00:04:01.620 also invested in Palantir,
00:04:03.280 also a major investor in the free press.
00:04:06.180 And this is all part of the same group that,
00:04:09.020 as you say, is inextricably linked, not just to building a domestic surveillance state,
00:04:13.240 but also a foreign policy that is very neocon in nature, very warmongering in nature. They all
00:04:18.440 wanted the war in Iran. They all love and worship and revere Israel. And of course, 0.98
00:04:23.540 it is in the interest of people who wield the greatest power to find out and know as much about
00:04:28.820 that they can as their domestic population, because that gives them the greatest control.
00:04:32.740 And that's always been what the surveillance state is about.
00:04:35.560 But the irony of it is just is inescapable.
00:04:39.100 I mean, we're fighting these wars abroad so we can be free here in the United States.
00:04:43.140 We're fighting tyrants on behalf of freedom and democracy.
00:04:46.580 And that's basically what we're doing.
00:04:48.480 I mean, there's no one really making the argument that Iran was a physical threat to the United States.
00:04:53.920 I mean, the fringe Mark Levin types do.
00:04:56.020 But most people would not make that case.
00:04:58.380 They would say this is a tyranny.
00:05:00.380 They're killing their own people. 1.00
00:05:01.580 They're throwing gays off the roof. 1.00
00:05:03.280 They're shooting protesters. 1.00
00:05:04.780 And because and same with China, same with North Korea, same with Russia, because they allow their own citizens no freedom, we have to kill their governments. 0.92
00:05:13.800 But those same people making that argument are now endorsing tyranny and totalitarianism at home.
00:05:19.960 So it's like, what could possibly be the justification for their foreign policy?
00:05:23.980 you know as somebody who has really had to immerse myself in u.s war propaganda and just
00:05:30.500 war propaganda generally as somebody who has opposed pretty much every war that the united
00:05:34.360 states has fought over the last say 25 years there are a lot of things about war propaganda
00:05:38.340 that i think are universal that aren't that surprising it's a very effective science it's
00:05:42.320 been developed over decades really centuries using multiple fields of discipline and anthropology and
00:05:47.480 psychology and psychiatry it's a very precise science it's not surprising that it works but
00:05:53.140 sometimes there are things that are so brazen about it that even my respect for the efficacy
00:05:59.340 of propaganda makes me shocked that it does work. And one of the things that I find most shocking
00:06:03.540 is this idea that the United States goes to war against the tyrannical and dictatorial
00:06:12.060 government to the world because we want to free the oppressed people and bring them freedom and
00:06:15.780 democracy. When if you know anything about American history, our history is exactly the
00:06:20.640 opposite. We've spent so many decades overthrowing democratically elected leaders and imposing on
00:06:25.720 those countries some of the most brutal military dictatorships ever known in human history,
00:06:30.480 including, of course, in Iran and countless other places. Right now, our closest allies
00:06:34.460 that Trump loves most are the most brutal regimes in Saudi Arabia, the Emiratis, the Egyptians,
00:06:41.560 all over the world. That has always been our goal. And anyone who believed, there was actually an
00:06:45.920 article last week in the New York Times about how these idiotic Iranian exiles who have 0.99
00:06:50.600 lived for decades in london and toronto and and and chicago and la somehow got held up as the 1.00
00:06:57.480 voice of the iranian people who were saying please please come and bomb our country we want you to
00:07:01.900 free us now are saying oh my god we're so disillusioned it turns out trump really wasn't
00:07:06.120 interested in freeing the iranian people nor was netanyahu they were fighting the war solely for
00:07:10.980 their own interests and they're willing to kill as many of us as possible in order to advance that
00:07:15.060 and it's like oh that just occurred to you that that so yes there if you were to believe that 0.57
00:07:21.640 neocons and the like and their war propaganda about how they want to free the repressed people
00:07:25.700 of the worlds were actually real you would then find it oddly contradictory that they're imposing
00:07:30.500 this tyrannical surveillance state at home but if you understand which i think most reasonably
00:07:36.580 perceptive people do that spreading freedom and democracy have nothing to do with why we fight
00:07:42.300 wars. In fact, if anything, we're more interested in undercutting freedom and democracy. We prefer
00:07:46.640 dictatorships at our service who control their countries and suppress their populations for us.
00:07:52.080 Then it makes all the sense in the world that those same people would want to maintain as much
00:07:56.740 of a grip on the domestic population as they do on the rest of the world. And nothing, there is
00:08:01.660 nothing. This is, I think, the other point, Tucker, when we were doing the stoner reporting
00:08:06.640 and people really understood, oh, wow, it turns out that our government really was converting
00:08:12.780 What we were told was this very liberatory,
00:08:15.880 emancipatory technology, which was the internet.
00:08:18.300 They were actually converting it into its exact opposite,
00:08:20.540 the most coercive and potent means of human control
00:08:25.340 ever in human history.
00:08:27.500 I remember when we did one story about the ubiquity 0.83
00:08:32.220 of the ability to spy, people from the Stasi,
00:08:35.400 like who were actually in the Stasi in East Germany,
00:08:37.280 came out and expressed this kind of envy.
00:08:39.480 And they were like, oh, wow, we never dreamed
00:08:41.120 of being able to have powers that were this significant.
00:08:44.820 And one of the big responses was,
00:08:47.140 well, look, you know, the NSA tried to encourage people
00:08:49.860 to think this, all the other corporations did as well.
00:08:52.380 You don't need privacy. 0.98
00:08:53.840 Privacy is for losers and criminals. 1.00
00:08:55.400 It's for pedophiles and terrorists. 1.00
00:08:57.600 And if you don't have anything to hide, 0.88
00:09:00.120 then why do you need privacy?
00:09:01.360 And of course, every single person has something to hide.
00:09:05.060 We all do things in secret and in private
00:09:07.520 that we wouldn't do in public.
00:09:09.260 Every single one of us has that division in our lives.
00:09:12.180 It's very healthy.
00:09:12.840 It's kind of fundamental to how human beings operate.
00:09:15.220 In a surveillance state, nothing gives greater tyrannical power to a centralized power than
00:09:21.100 the ability to surveil and monitor and know what people are doing at all times.
00:09:24.340 And to see Barry Weiss and the free press justifying it, cheering it, making it seem
00:09:28.880 all benign is exactly what you would expect of people who have that as their goal.
00:09:34.060 And not just benign, not just, you know, harmless and non-threatening.
00:09:38.380 They've actually taken it, I think, a step beyond that,
00:09:40.760 and they're scolding anyone who wants privacy.
00:09:45.060 And by the way, these are all pro-choice people
00:09:47.180 who believe Griswold versus Connecticut,
00:09:49.460 the 67 decision that gave us the right to privacy,
00:09:52.400 is really important, but you don't actually get the privacy.
00:09:54.840 So just to restate the headline,
00:09:58.040 it says, they're not interested in you
00:10:01.940 unless you're a kidnapper, a thief, or up to no good.
00:10:04.960 So basically, if you're worried about flock cameras,
00:10:07.860 You're up to no good. 1.00
00:10:08.680 You're a thief. 1.00
00:10:09.140 You're a kidnapper. 1.00
00:10:10.380 I mean, like they're yelling at us for caring.
00:10:13.380 Well, what they're trying to do is to essentially say that if you are somebody who craves privacy in your life, who wants to have areas of your life that are free of government or corporate monitoring and scrutiny, then essentially you're admitting that you do things that are wrong.
00:10:30.540 In fact, Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Google for many years, that's actually one time exactly
00:10:37.860 what he said when people were raising questions about the invasiveness of Google and how it's
00:10:41.760 creating this dragnet of ubiquitous surveillance.
00:10:44.960 He said, well, why don't you think about it this way?
00:10:46.660 If you're doing something that you don't want other people to know about it, maybe you should
00:10:49.700 stop doing it.
00:10:50.640 Maybe that's something that you ought not to be doing.
00:10:53.120 As though the mere fact that human beings crave privacy in any realm at any point in
00:10:58.720 our lives for any purpose suggests that we are somehow bad people because we want to hide things.
00:11:04.460 And the only reason to hide things is if you're a pedophile or otherwise engaged in dangerous
00:11:09.120 conduct that you shouldn't be engaged in. And ultimately, I think you're right. That is the
00:11:12.720 most pernicious and sinister part of this, which is to start trying to convince people that anybody
00:11:17.620 who actually cares about privacy cares about privacy only because they're doing things that
00:11:21.960 you should want the government to know about because they're probably really bad and dangerous
00:11:25.500 people. I just, I think sometimes we forget like how un-American that is. You know, when I went to
00:11:30.840 law school and like, you know, you study the Federalist Papers and the constitution and the
00:11:34.160 layout of it. I remember being kind of amazed. Like it really struck me how the founders had
00:11:40.940 this debate and they purposely imposed restrictions on police power, on state power,
00:11:48.180 knowing that it would make it easier for violent criminals, rapists, pedophiles to often escape.
00:11:55.500 And to do some more, like the police would be able to catch so many more criminals if they could just barge into your home at any time or search whatever it is that they wanted.
00:12:04.060 Privacy is so foundational to, you know, the state can't just come into your home and use your house to quarter their soldiers.
00:12:10.560 This is all the value of privacy that pervades every part of the Bill of Rights.
00:12:14.340 And what it means to be American and the idea that you should give up your privacy, that only bad people care about privacy, could not be any more anti-American in its ethos.
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00:14:23.120 Tucker, I don't think you would talk to your own population that way if you liked them.
00:14:30.320 I mean, the normal reaction to complaint, if someone you love says, you know, I don't
00:14:36.440 like what you're doing, part of you is like, okay, well, I love this person.
00:14:40.220 I'm going to listen.
00:14:41.420 I don't whip around and scream at the person for complaining.
00:14:43.960 And yet, again and again and again, you see this impulse from our leaders, particularly the ones who are pushing the war in Iran, the neocons, that suggest deep contempt for the American population.
00:14:57.080 And you saw it in the last 10 days in the debate over food inflation. 0.93
00:15:03.340 Rather than just make the argument that, no, the numbers aren't real, your lived experience is imaginary, it doesn't actually cost more to eat than it did five years ago, you're making it up in your mind, you're crazy.
00:15:13.960 they they've been scolding people like yelling at them like you know how dare you complain
00:15:19.700 about a 20 burrito you're not doing it right what is that you know this is i mean this is one of the
00:15:27.900 things that i think we've gotten away from so severely and maybe it was too gradual and it
00:15:32.900 kind of like the the the frog in the the boiling water metaphor but the whole idea of why congress
00:15:39.860 was supposed to approve wars was because war is something that by necessity affects every single
00:15:45.280 person in very fundamental ways. I mean, there was an assumption, even though it proved not to be
00:15:50.060 true, that obviously in times of war, you're going to have to pay more taxes because someone has to
00:15:55.180 pay for the war. They didn't know that we were just going to create this fiat system of money
00:15:58.240 and borrow trillions from China. But anyway, that was their assumption. But it would also affect
00:16:02.840 the country in every single other way. Your sons would be endangered because they were the ones
00:16:07.840 who would have to go fight.
00:16:08.680 And so it needed buy-in from the American people.
00:16:10.720 And the way to do that was to ensure
00:16:12.940 that the only way the president could start a war
00:16:17.240 is if the American people,
00:16:18.780 through their Congress, approved.
00:16:20.380 We just completely got rid of that.
00:16:22.060 That no longer exists.
00:16:23.360 It's like we just rewrote the Constitution.
00:16:26.060 And even though there hasn't been a declaration of war,
00:16:28.780 typically, political leaders have wanted
00:16:32.020 the buy-in of the American people before starting a war.
00:16:34.500 That was what the whole 18-month campaign
00:16:36.600 of what turned out to be lies,
00:16:37.720 But still, it was an 18-month PR campaign by George Bush and Dick Cheney and the rest to convince Americans why we needed to go and invade Iraq and take out Saddam Hussein.
00:16:46.380 They thought it was important that Americans got on board, and they did.
00:16:49.080 Two-thirds or more of Americans favored the war in Iraq at the time that it began.
00:16:53.620 That does not exist anymore.
00:16:55.020 There was no campaign of any kind, no pretense of caring about the American population thought when trying to sell this war in Iran that basically came out of nowhere.
00:17:03.140 polls showed that americans overwhelmingly were opposed to it and they've only gotten more opposed
00:17:08.100 and the the the reaction is who cares who cares what the american people think who cares if they
00:17:14.660 think it's not worth it to pay more gas prices and more at the supermarket when they're already
00:17:18.720 facing economic difficulties too bad for them they need to shut up and and accept it and take it
00:17:23.860 because our goals are more important it's a it's such a overtly contemptuous message as you say
00:17:29.880 that is being sent by our elite.
00:17:31.840 And then these are the same people who turn around
00:17:33.340 and wonder why Americans are so disgusted
00:17:35.960 by elite institutions that they're willing to vote
00:17:38.440 for anybody, left, right, socialist, far right,
00:17:42.520 whatever you call them,
00:17:43.980 that they see are radically opposing the establishment
00:17:47.400 and the people in power
00:17:48.940 because they have very good reasons,
00:17:50.280 so many good reasons to hate them.
00:17:52.120 So you're describing a political system
00:17:54.580 that's becoming legitimately volatile.
00:17:56.220 You know, people who had no chance at all,
00:17:59.540 who are truly fringe and ideas that were truly fringe,
00:18:02.360 including some that I personally have and articulate a lot,
00:18:05.460 are now much more mainstream.
00:18:07.520 So that suggests that the system is changing really fast
00:18:10.180 in a way that is good in some ways,
00:18:13.120 but also kind of scary in other ways.
00:18:14.800 And that's exactly why you don't, as you said,
00:18:19.000 embark on a massive project like a war
00:18:21.280 without the buy-in of the public, right?
00:18:23.280 Because it could hurt you.
00:18:24.900 But these people didn't even flinch.
00:18:27.420 And on a bipartisan level,
00:18:29.220 I mean, Trump did it, but, you know, there were Democrats, Democratic leaders were for it also.
00:18:34.740 So why aren't they afraid and still are?
00:18:37.600 Why aren't they afraid?
00:18:39.500 OK, so this is where I think this gets back to your first question.
00:18:42.320 And this is what I think.
00:18:43.140 Ultimately, I almost wrote a book on this one.
00:18:44.800 Actually, I was about to write a book on it when I met someone named Edward Snowden that kind of derailed me for a few years.
00:18:50.960 I remember growing up, I didn't know any rich people.
00:18:54.220 And one of the very first few rich people I really met or ever talked to was right when I started my blog early on.
00:19:00.780 I had this guy who was like a major high-level mathematician at one of the most lucrative hedge funds making enormous sums of money.
00:19:08.140 And I remember after the 2008 financial crisis, you know, I was doing a lot of reading about oligarchs in the past and how frightened they were of the public.
00:19:17.060 Like the greatest fear that the very wealthy had in America was of a populist uprising.
00:19:22.580 And that was how FDR was able to sell them on the New Deal was, look, you may not like
00:19:26.520 the New Deal, but if we don't make these people's lives better in some way, you know, you can
00:19:30.960 say goodbye to the whole capitalist system.
00:19:33.040 And they used to have yachts where they had safes full of their jewels because they thought
00:19:36.780 any moment they were going to, you know, have a kind of Bolshevik revolution.
00:19:40.320 And that's why like John Rockefeller and Henry Ford used to ride down the street handing
00:19:43.440 money out.
00:19:43.940 That's where philanthropy came from to convince Americans to know they were good people because
00:19:48.200 they were scared.
00:19:49.540 And I remember after the financial crisis,
00:19:51.140 I said, you know, it really seems like
00:19:52.460 the elite class has completely lost its fear.
00:19:55.540 Like the greed that drove the financial crisis
00:19:58.640 and then the insistence that all the money be used
00:20:01.320 to bail out the richest people who caused it
00:20:03.100 and let everybody else drown,
00:20:04.480 like the entire middle class with foreclosures 0.80
00:20:06.580 and mortgages and all of that,
00:20:08.120 signals a kind of utter indifference to,
00:20:11.880 like that fear is gone.
00:20:13.460 And I think one of the,
00:20:15.380 and one of the things he says is,
00:20:16.480 yeah, I think it's absolutely gone.
00:20:17.780 And I think the reason it's gone is because they believe that the police state that they've
00:20:21.460 constructed is enough to keep them safe, no matter how angry the peasants are.
00:20:28.020 And I think that is a lot of where this surveillance state comes from.
00:20:31.540 Like if you have this massive wealth inequality, there are two ways to, I think, maintain it.
00:20:37.620 One is to play keep the public, the majority just enough so that they don't really feel
00:20:42.680 like it's worth it to go risk their lives and wage violence and a revolution because
00:20:47.180 they're at least minimally fed they have a enough of a decent life um just above the
00:20:51.740 assistance level but if you're not going to do that the alternative is just paramilitarize the
00:20:57.040 society build huge walls behind which all the rich live uh give extreme authorities uh of violence
00:21:04.080 and and surveillance to the police forces that you fund and construct that are there really to
00:21:09.400 protect that system and to protect you and i think so much of this mass surveillance and everything
00:21:14.220 else is that the recognition that that is the path that has been chosen. And, you know, I mean,
00:21:21.160 I guess the French elite thought that they were safe behind the walls of Versailles.
00:21:24.620 And to some extent, you can probably make yourself pretty safe. But at some point,
00:21:29.080 if you keep creating this kind of complete loss and of faith and trust in institutions of authority
00:21:35.740 and a belief, a very well-rounded belief that the suffering that people have in their lives
00:21:40.220 is due to those in power, not left, right, not Democrat versus Republican, not pro or anti-abortion
00:21:45.520 or pro and anti-trans or whatever. But based on what is being done with the distribution of power
00:21:50.180 and wealth, I don't think that even the greatest amount of paramilitarization and surveillance
00:21:56.640 will be enough to stop it. But that is definitely the goal. And it's tied into their ability to go
00:22:01.300 around having wars and not care if people are supportive of it or angry about it because they
00:22:06.720 They just believe, you know, Peter Thiel believes he can build his own private island and have Palantir surveil everybody, and he'll always know whatever threats are emerging.
00:22:13.680 And I think that is the mentality that they have opted for.
00:22:17.380 I've always thought that pharma played a role in this.
00:22:20.160 It is not simply surveilling and threatening people into obedience, but it's also changing the nature of people through benzodiazepines and SSRIs.
00:22:28.320 And there's the whole cornucopia of sort of suppressive drugs that to hand it out,
00:22:34.580 you can get them online without ever seeing a doctor.
00:22:37.540 And that seems like an instrument of social policy to me, of social control.
00:22:44.400 Yeah, I think marijuana is part of that as well.
00:22:46.640 I mean, I'm definitely somebody who believes in the legalization of marijuana
00:22:49.040 just because it gives the state way too much power to criminalize it.
00:22:52.100 Um, but the fact that so many people are ingesting so many substances that are being given to them, fed to them, recommended to them, promoted to them that are basically designed to just almost create a zombie state.
00:23:05.680 like sometimes anxiety is good yes anger is good these are the things that you know are are drivers
00:23:12.580 of us wanting better lives and if you sandpaper all the edges off of humanity and just turn them
00:23:18.460 into kind of like doped up narcoticized you know people who are willing to accept that
00:23:25.080 everything and anything and just kind of be content with it that is i mean it's very dystopian
00:23:31.360 And it sounds very dystopian, but it's also in a large, to a large extent, if you know people in your life, which you probably do, who are taking a large amount of antidepressants or Xanax or any of these medications, marijuana too, to put themselves constantly in a state of tranquility and acceptance and submission.
00:23:48.880 You can see the effects of it in their daily lives, but also on this kind of macro level that is very, very beneficial to people in power.
00:23:54.960 You want a population that's content and happy.
00:23:57.240 Turns out opium is the opium of the masses, right?
00:23:59.880 Drugs are the opium.
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00:26:17.380 so but can you expand i i snorted in agreement but i would if you wouldn't mind just explaining
00:26:24.420 a little more precisely your point that anxiety can be good because i do think americans are
00:26:31.500 trained to see pain in general but specifically anxiety is like the last thing you ever want to
00:26:37.000 deal with you should do whatever it takes to avoid ever feeling anxious why do you disagree
00:26:41.900 why do you think it can be hopeful? All of these human emotions that we have,
00:26:47.420 all of these human instincts that we have, these are fundamental to our survival. They're the
00:26:52.420 reason why natural selection has produced human beings that are capable of feeling all these
00:26:58.000 things and who do react in these ways to all of these events, because these are the sentiments
00:27:03.240 and feelings that maximize your chance of survival and not just survival, but you're thriving and
00:27:08.480 you're prospering and your ability to find happiness. And it's sort of like fear. Nobody
00:27:14.340 likes feeling fear, but I'm really glad that I have the ability to feel fear if something actually
00:27:19.980 dangerous is nearby because then I'll either protect myself from it or I'll try and flee or
00:27:24.460 I'll try and do things to save myself. If I just took pills that constantly eliminated my sense of
00:27:29.880 fear, I might feel better day to day, but it would also drastically impede the capabilities that I
00:27:35.680 have that are fundamental to my being a human being who can survive and thrive in the world.
00:27:39.960 And the same is true of anxiety. Anxiety is what tells us there's something wrong.
00:27:43.880 You know, anxiety tells us there's things that are going on that are not as they should be.
00:27:48.960 This is one of the most, this is what drives intellectual achievement. It's what drives
00:27:53.840 social and political change and revolutions. If you are willing to just take medication every day
00:28:00.480 in order to drown that out or suffocate it or kill it, you're taking away one of the most
00:28:05.680 important, valuable drivers that you have as a human being. And you'll just kind of stagnate.
00:28:09.960 You may be happier in the sense that people who perceive nothing are happy. You know,
00:28:14.900 if you perceive nothing, if you just limit what you know to a very small number of things,
00:28:20.260 you might be kind of that ignorance is bliss kind of formula. There is a level of happiness to it,
00:28:25.340 but it's very shallow. It's very superficial. And ultimately it's designed to make you accept
00:28:30.200 things that really you want not to accept, not to feel good about, not to be happy about.
00:28:34.380 It also reframes reality in a way that's very dishonest. So basically, therapy culture tells you it's on you. Like you've got this trauma that you're carrying around with, all of which, you know, there's truth in all of that, by the way, I'm not dismissing it.
00:28:49.300 But like big picture, a lot of Americans are really unhappy because the system is working against them.
00:28:55.580 The system that they did not create into which they were born, which has changed a lot over the past 30 years.
00:29:00.700 It is bad for you.
00:29:02.000 The way we're living is bad for you.
00:29:03.980 And that's the result of decisions that others made.
00:29:08.020 But when you get prescribed SSRIs or benzos, what is the therapist really saying?
00:29:13.200 Like your real problems are internal.
00:29:15.180 It's like, yeah, I've got internal problems, but I don't know, a $20 burrito and a lifetime
00:29:20.940 of debt, other people decided to create that system and it's hurting me.
00:29:26.320 So do you see what I'm saying?
00:29:27.280 You kind of like shift the blame from the guilty to yourself.
00:29:33.160 Yeah.
00:29:33.740 I mean, you do want all the tools as an individual that you can acquire to kind of combat external
00:29:40.760 forces and to keep yourself from, because sometimes those, those, those human instincts
00:29:46.040 can become excessive or off kilter. You know, fear is good, but paranoia isn't. Of course.
00:29:52.040 Anxiety is good, but you know, like crippling anxiety is, is a disorder. So it's not as though
00:29:57.240 those things can't go wrong and you want to always like turn them up to 10 and maximize them.
00:30:01.220 And sometimes those things can help, you know, individuals who are struggling with some sort of
00:30:05.540 disorder, you know, get themselves in order, but in general, and, you know, this was, this is,
00:30:11.800 you know, this has become, you know, such a common anecdote now when, when, when Trump won in 2016,
00:30:19.580 which is very shocking to most people, but to especially the liberals, to, to liberals,
00:30:23.980 you know, in every city and every, every part of the country, therapists reported that they had so
00:30:29.640 many patients seeking out therapy as a way of dealing with Trump's victory that they couldn't
00:30:34.180 even accommodate a portion of them. During COVID, people basically went insane, and they should have
00:30:41.960 because the conditions in which we were forced to live were so completely divergent from what
00:30:48.140 human beings need, just the minimum things you need of interactivity and going outside and
00:30:52.680 just normal human life, that those kinds of things are positive reactions. Those are the
00:30:58.740 kinds of things that make you angry and say, no, we're not going to accept this. But you're right.
00:31:02.280 In our culture, we've been told that if we're dissatisfied with something, if we're angry
00:31:06.360 about something, if we feel anxious about something, you go and take a pill for it or
00:31:11.200 you go and fix it.
00:31:12.780 And sometimes it shouldn't be fixed.
00:31:14.340 Sometimes you feel those things because you should feel those things.
00:31:18.800 And, you know, again, I mean, there's from the 1950s and 1940s, there's, you know, books
00:31:24.200 by Orwell and Huxley and all these kinds of dystopian books about what to them was the
00:31:29.020 future, but to us as our present, based on the idea that we were essentially going to
00:31:33.860 be just kept in this constant state of chemical or entertainment, distraction, tranquility
00:31:42.420 in a way that would allow those in power to exploit us as much as they want, because
00:31:47.360 we've turned off those reactions that are so vital to resisting it.
00:31:52.220 Why is distraction bad?
00:31:54.140 you mentioned it's so interesting you mentioned distraction which is a tool of control but it's
00:31:59.840 also a source of suffering what what role does distraction play
00:32:03.580 well it's interesting i mean i don't think distraction as an in an absolute sense is bad
00:32:12.480 i think distraction sometimes can be a positive you know you go in you watch some sporting event
00:32:18.760 with your family or you watch some yep good film or read a good book you know you're in a way part
00:32:23.900 of what its value is, is it, it takes you away from your reality and puts you into a different
00:32:28.300 reality. So I don't think if, if, if managed and limited, it's, it's necessarily a bad thing,
00:32:34.080 but distraction has, is, is very addictive. I mean, we have companies that build products that
00:32:39.860 are designed to do nothing, but to addict you to the distraction that they provide. I mean,
00:32:44.760 I still think one of the most amazing articles was a, by the New York times interviewed a bunch
00:32:49.840 of parents who work for Silicon Valley companies, and they were always saying, I would never,
00:32:56.060 ever allow my kids to use the products that I'm creating for kids because I know what
00:33:01.220 they're designed to do, which is to completely distort and trap their brain into this never
00:33:07.360 ending need for just constant stimulation that has nothing to do with the real world.
00:33:12.020 They're designed to be addictive, like cigarettes were or all other kinds of substances were.
00:33:17.000 And if you can just keep people continuously distracted,
00:33:21.560 meaning not focused on reality,
00:33:23.740 then the people who are focused on reality
00:33:25.360 have a gigantic advantage,
00:33:26.680 which is that they can do anything that they want
00:33:28.500 and very few people will pay attention.
00:33:31.280 And you just feed them enough propaganda,
00:33:32.920 you feed them enough justification
00:33:34.460 and they're more eager to get back to that distraction,
00:33:38.880 which really becomes an addiction.
00:33:41.140 Well, you certainly see it in the country
00:33:43.280 since February 28th,
00:33:45.300 you know, the day that the war with Iran started and kind of the certain precipitous decline of
00:33:51.800 the United States began. Obviously, there's kind of no way out without a readjustment downward
00:33:56.560 in our standard of living. Like we know that's going to happen. And yet people don't seem as
00:34:03.640 agitated about it as you might have expected at the beginning. And most interesting of all,
00:34:09.660 there have been almost no protests, anti-war protests.
00:34:13.800 And having seen a lot of anti-war protests in my life,
00:34:17.160 I'm baffled.
00:34:18.040 This is the most significant war that we have fought,
00:34:21.340 I would argue, since the Second World War,
00:34:23.820 in that it'll change balance of power globally.
00:34:25.860 And there are no protests?
00:34:27.400 Like, what is going on?
00:34:30.660 Well, I think if you look at what has sparked
00:34:34.580 anti-war protests in the past,
00:34:37.440 it basically requires some visceral interaction with the war that makes people horrified and
00:34:43.580 sickened by what's happening the vietnam war protests were almost certainly induced primarily
00:34:49.740 by the fact that huge numbers of coffins and body bags were coming back to the united states on a
00:34:55.080 very regular basis and so people's neighbors and communities and people who they went to school
00:35:00.180 with or who worked with all had kids who were going over to the jungles of vietnam and coming
00:35:04.260 back dead um but it was also you know one of the first really televised wars i mean it wasn't
00:35:10.160 televised in the sense that the first iraq war was the gulf war or the wars now are but it was
00:35:15.960 still there was enough of a you know with with the the reporting that was done on some of the
00:35:21.400 massacres by the u.s military and the amount of death that was taking place so people felt that
00:35:26.240 in their neighborhoods they felt it in their communities there was no way to avoid it and
00:35:29.840 then even wars that have sparked anti-war protests more recently that didn't involve
00:35:34.160 american troops coming back home like the u.s funded and armed israeli destruction of gaza
00:35:39.220 was one where every single day people were seeing the most horrific carnage you know babies having
00:35:44.700 their limbs blown apart entire families being incinerated intense even though they were
00:35:48.960 completely defenseless basically the most horrific things you could possibly think of
00:35:52.300 and i think anyone with a basic moral conscience knowing that their government was paying for it
00:35:56.560 that their money was being used for it,
00:35:58.140 that their government's forces
00:35:59.600 were being diplomatically and militarily harnessed
00:36:02.180 to participate in it and to protect it,
00:36:05.240 felt this kind of immediacy,
00:36:06.900 this visceral disgust
00:36:08.480 that also caused them to protest.
00:36:10.320 We don't really have that,
00:36:11.240 either of those in Iran.
00:36:12.860 The number of American deaths
00:36:14.000 have been relatively limited
00:36:15.640 by virtue of the fact that Trump
00:36:16.760 has not ordered ground troops into Iran.
00:36:19.620 At the same time,
00:36:21.140 we've gotten very little visual
00:36:25.140 idea of how many people who are civilians have been killed in iran the very first day we know
00:36:32.180 that we killed 165 schoolgirls the very people we claim we were going to war to liberate
00:36:36.880 by just dropping a gigantic missile on their school and then a second missile when people 0.88
00:36:44.000 showed up to help them the notorious double strike missiles that the israelis use constantly
00:36:48.700 in gaza so it's not like this war has been free of atrocities and the like but i think it's been
00:36:55.100 kept hidden enough. We don't know the names of Iranian victims. We don't really get a full
00:36:59.500 glimpse of it is. And at the same time, given the few number of people who are fighting the war,
00:37:04.160 the fact that not many of them are coming back dead, I think it's been enough to just kind of
00:37:07.500 numb people and make them think, well, this isn't really something that's affecting me directly,
00:37:12.080 even though I'm paying more. I think there's a pretty high trigger for when people are going
00:37:17.320 to go out into the street and actually protest. I should also add, Tucker, this is something to
00:37:21.760 consider as well is the protest movement that occurred on American campuses about the war in
00:37:29.000 Gaza did not just peter out. Those were crushed. They were crushed through a combination of police
00:37:35.160 violence, but especially essentially the criminalization of those protests. Many of
00:37:39.840 those protesters got expelled. A lot of them got deported. They made very clear the government did
00:37:45.520 that they regarded protests against government policy, even though it's one of our most
00:37:49.560 foundational rights that's protected by the Constitution as something that was going to be
00:37:53.040 crushed through the use of police force and state punishments of all kind. And when you create a
00:37:58.660 climate where people know if they protest the government's war policies, there's a good chance
00:38:03.160 they're going to suffer personally. I think you raise the bar by design even higher for when people
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00:39:21.260 One of the reasons those protests took place is because there was evidence, as you just said, of what was happening in Gaza.
00:39:27.660 But there really, there's no coverage of the war and run or for that matter, coverage of the war against Russia from Russia's perspective.
00:39:35.860 So when the first Gulf War broke out in the winter of 1990 and 1991, CNN famously was there in Baghdad as the United States began its barrage of Baghdad.
00:39:45.280 And you could watch it live on television. 0.60
00:39:47.220 That's been true for every war.
00:39:48.640 It was even true in Afghanistan to some extent and Iraq.
00:39:51.980 But this war, how many American network correspondents are in Tehran right now?
00:39:57.480 How many are in Moscow covering that side? 0.83
00:39:59.980 It does seem intentional.
00:40:02.220 Like the propaganda is founded on lack of information, I think.
00:40:09.140 I mean, I think this is so crucial that the easiest way to prevent public outrage about public policy or public behavior that deserves outrage is simply to hide it.
00:40:22.880 You know, I did a lot of reporting on the atrocities inside factory farms, the way factory food is produced through the torture and slaughter of billions of animals.
00:40:32.740 And not just their slaughter, but their actual horrific torture, but also the grotesque public health conditions in which these animals are kept that contaminate the food pile, the risk of epidemics from antibiotics, et cetera, et cetera.
00:40:45.260 And so one of the ways this industry purposely ensures that nobody gets outraged by it is to cover it up.
00:40:50.820 They actually got used their control of state legislatures and all of the farming states to pass what are called ag-gag laws that made it a criminal offense for anybody to go get a job inside a factory farm and then film what was taking place, which was basically the way the only way that we ever got to a glimpse of what was happening there.
00:41:09.120 They criminalized it.
00:41:10.460 Eventually, courts overturned it as the obvious prohibition, violation of the First Amendment
00:41:14.620 that it was.
00:41:15.480 But that was their goal was to say, OK, we're going to use barbarism and savagery.
00:41:20.280 But as long as we prevent the public from knowing about it, they can't care because
00:41:24.060 they will never see it. 0.61
00:41:25.560 That has been very much the case with war. 0.64
00:41:28.160 I remember one time, I don't remember this, but in 2015, there was this kind of like lone
00:41:33.440 gunman attack on the parliament, the Canadian parliament in Ottawa. 0.52
00:41:38.920 And it turned out the guy, even though he was Muslim, was mostly just psychiatrically ill, 0.95
00:41:44.080 had a long history of psychiatric illness. 0.95
00:41:46.180 And he killed one young guard who stood outside the parliament and nobody else.
00:41:51.640 And that guy became kind of an icon in Canada.
00:41:54.800 I was there the whole week.
00:41:55.820 They had marches in his name.
00:41:58.580 They interviewed all his family members.
00:42:00.040 And so there was a sense of, wow, our society has really suffered the loss of this valuable,
00:42:05.740 precious human life, which it has.
00:42:07.980 When have you ever heard the name of one of our victims from all the countries that we
00:42:13.140 bomb and have been bombing for 25 years, all throughout the war on terror, all always now,
00:42:18.220 all these bombs that dropped, these drones that have dropped on wedding parties, they're
00:42:21.500 all just dehumanized.
00:42:22.360 They're all kind of just swept under the rug.
00:42:24.300 Did you hear of any of the families of the 165 schoolgirls who we killed on the first
00:42:28.300 day of the war in Iran?
00:42:29.640 No, that's a very deliberate strategy to make sure that Americans don't think about and
00:42:34.040 don't focus on the amount of carnage and suffering and bloodshed that our military is causing against
00:42:39.780 innocent people, because that is the only way that you can get populations to accept these
00:42:45.020 constant wars is if you don't let them realize what actually it entails. And I think the reason
00:42:51.100 Gaza was an exception was because so many people in Gaza had so many cameras in their hand and 0.55
00:42:56.020 were uploading and had allies who could upload the actual carnage and the actual inhumanity
00:43:02.380 that was taking place in every day
00:43:03.740 and people couldn't avoid it.
00:43:05.140 But they made a lot of efforts
00:43:06.620 to try and prevent that from being seen as well.
00:43:09.300 That was what the ban of TikTok was ultimately about,
00:43:11.980 was it was not a fear of China
00:43:14.100 because that had been around forever.
00:43:16.100 The idea that we have to ban TikTok 1.00
00:43:17.720 because the Chinese have too much power
00:43:20.060 and that went nowhere. 1.00
00:43:21.240 The only time the TikTok ban picked up enough steam
00:43:23.300 and got votes in both parties
00:43:24.620 in the support of the Biden White House
00:43:25.860 was when the ADL came out and said,
00:43:27.860 the reason young people are being turned against Israel
00:43:30.240 in the war in Gaza
00:43:30.980 is because there's too many of these videos
00:43:32.960 circulating on TikTok.
00:43:34.340 And that's when the government intervened and said,
00:43:36.460 we can't allow TikTok to become
00:43:38.120 this uncontrolled realm of free speech
00:43:40.680 because it contaminates our youth
00:43:42.920 with the things we don't want them to know.
00:43:44.800 And that's why they took it out of the hands of ByteDance
00:43:46.840 and basically put it in the hands of Mark Andreessen
00:43:49.040 and Larry Ellison and people like that. 0.99
00:43:51.680 How bitterly ironic that it was a Chinese-owned company 1.00
00:43:54.780 that was bringing too much free speech 1.00
00:43:56.400 into the United States. 0.57
00:43:57.260 yeah well i mean that is one of the issues is for no one thinks china is a beacon of free speech 0.91
00:44:04.540 especially when it comes to their own people that's for sure but in a way they were the only
00:44:09.720 outlet that the u.s government couldn't fully control right like during covid the u.s government
00:44:14.780 had no problem whatsoever cracking down on any debates about the origins of covid about the
00:44:19.900 efficacies of the mask or social distancing or school lockdowns and its advisability they were
00:44:24.660 easily able to censor it because they had basic control over all of the American big tech platforms
00:44:30.040 because those big tech platforms need the U.S. government for all their defense contracts,
00:44:34.500 all the other contracts to get with the CIA and the Pentagon. They're never going to be
00:44:37.720 adversarial to the U.S. government. ByteDance didn't really have that vested interest in the
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00:46:16.560 My concern about the censorship that just covers all the main facts of these two wars in progress in Russia and Iran is that obviously it hardens us to the effects of what our policies actually do.
00:46:32.180 But it also makes it hard to make wise decisions because you have no idea the other side's perspective.
00:46:38.280 So, for example, I keep, including at dinner last night,
00:46:40.860 running into people who sincerely believe
00:46:43.040 that Ukraine is winning the war against Russia
00:46:45.300 and who have no idea that the United States
00:46:47.460 is actually fighting that war, NATO, but our proxy NATO.
00:46:50.660 But we're, the CIA is allowing all the targeting
00:46:53.660 to take place and we're running Ukraine.
00:46:56.540 But they don't, no one seems to know that.
00:46:58.660 And they seem, so it seems like a feedback loop,
00:47:01.400 like we're winning, or Ukraine is winning, amazingly,
00:47:04.700 and Rush is going to surrender at any moment now
00:47:08.680 and give back to the Donbass.
00:47:11.080 If you really believe that,
00:47:13.400 and it's not true, of course,
00:47:14.640 but if you believe that, 0.91
00:47:15.860 you're likely to do really dumb things that could, 0.83
00:47:19.140 well, God knows where they could wind up. 0.96
00:47:21.380 Do you see that happening?
00:47:23.280 Oh, I mean, I'm sure you've had this experience,
00:47:26.940 but sometimes I see things that happen
00:47:28.680 that actually shock and amaze me
00:47:31.120 and don't fully understand
00:47:32.800 why it doesn't produce more shock
00:47:35.820 and indignation in other people.
00:47:37.060 And so I just, everywhere I go,
00:47:38.640 I just try and bring it up
00:47:39.480 and just remind people,
00:47:40.500 hey, remember when that happened?
00:47:41.760 Hoping that one day people understand
00:47:43.480 how not just alarming it is on its own,
00:47:47.120 but how reflective it is
00:47:48.300 of how severely our discourse is controlled.
00:47:51.920 One of them was when young people on TikTok
00:47:53.920 discovered the Bin Laden letter
00:47:55.180 and started passing it around
00:47:56.500 and they bullied the Guardian
00:47:57.500 into taking that document off of its site.
00:47:59.920 So the links no longer worked
00:48:00.880 and they got TikTok to ban
00:48:02.000 any discussion of the bin Laden letter
00:48:03.380 because a bunch of young people were like,
00:48:04.840 wait a minute, I never knew before
00:48:06.340 that this is why people said
00:48:08.500 there was so much hatred
00:48:09.460 toward the United States and the Middle East
00:48:10.840 because we sanctioned Iraq 0.57
00:48:12.400 and killed 100,000 children,
00:48:14.960 put our military on their most sacred soil in Saudi Arabia, 0.80
00:48:18.240 but also have been funding Israel 0.82
00:48:20.480 in the middle of their region
00:48:21.320 to win all this aggression.
00:48:22.460 I always thought it was because what we were told, 1.00
00:48:24.340 like these Muslims hated women 1.00
00:48:25.780 walking around in bikinis 0.99
00:48:26.780 and hated the fact that we vote. 0.98
00:48:29.440 And they were shocked to discover this history
00:48:31.360 that they had never been told.
00:48:32.360 And immediately the attempt was
00:48:33.540 take it off the Guardian website
00:48:35.380 so that there's nowhere
00:48:36.320 they can read that letter
00:48:38.020 and then make TikTok
00:48:40.500 shut down the hashtag.
00:48:42.120 And that's one of the examples
00:48:43.960 that I always bring up.
00:48:45.300 But the other one is
00:48:46.360 right after the Russian invasion
00:48:50.260 of Ukraine in February of 2022,
00:48:54.180 the EU parliament
00:48:55.560 quickly enacted a law
00:48:58.420 that made it a criminal offense
00:49:00.580 to platform any Russian state media.
00:49:04.620 So if you're an adult citizen of the Netherlands
00:49:07.020 or Spain or wherever,
00:49:09.520 and you want to hear the Russian side of the story,
00:49:12.960 or you want to hear what Russia is saying
00:49:14.640 about why they decided to do this
00:49:17.400 or what's actually happening,
00:49:19.240 you can't because it's a crime now
00:49:21.460 to platform Russian state media.
00:49:24.380 European citizens were not allowed to hear it.
00:49:27.300 And when I was at Rumble,
00:49:28.280 they came to rumble and said the french government did and said you have rt and sputnik that you
00:49:35.060 allow on your site and you need to take those down because you law doesn't permit the dissemination
00:49:39.760 of those media outlets in our in our countries and when rumble said no they banned all of rumble at
00:49:45.080 the ip level so rumble was not available in france that's how rigorously enforced it was
00:49:50.480 now even at the height of the cold war you could go to the new york times and khrushchev would come
00:49:56.160 to the United States and give a speech and they would print the full text of the speech. He would
00:49:59.240 be interviewed. We would always hear from Soviet leaders. The Soviet Union, Richard Nixon would go
00:50:03.740 to the Soviet Union. He would go on national television and talk about the virtues of
00:50:07.800 capitalism and freedom and the like. This is a level of censorship so extreme that it shocks me
00:50:13.500 that people tolerate. But the reason for it is, is because if you actually hear the perspective
00:50:18.840 of the Russians, and I know you did this and I have gone to Russia and I've interviewed Russian
00:50:23.960 officials, because I do want to hear what they're saying. I do want to hear the perspective of the
00:50:27.880 other side in a war, but it's become almost like treasonous. You know, this climate has been
00:50:32.460 created where you're not supposed to listen to them. And any journalist who publish it or talk
00:50:37.320 about it are somehow traitors to the country or, or accused of being on the payroll of propaganda
00:50:43.620 simply for reporting what their perspective is, not just what our government officials want you
00:50:48.420 to know. And it is, you know, nothing makes propagandizing a population easier than if you
00:50:56.480 get to just banish the population from hearing any alternative views. What do you think the
00:51:02.300 purpose of this is? Like, what's the goal in the war against Russia? Like, what's the end game?
00:51:09.760 I mean, I'll just say in one sentence, from my perspective, it's the biggest country in the
00:51:13.680 world. It's a civilization as well as a nation state. And it has the world's largest nuclear
00:51:18.160 arsenal. So you're probably not going to defeat Russia, right? Let's just start there. 0.92
00:51:23.420 So, but do they not know that? Or what, you know, like, what is the plan here?
00:51:30.040 You know, I have to confess, I've never had a clear answer. I've never gotten a clear answer.
00:51:36.340 I've never settled on a clear explanation for why the U.S. national security state has so much deep
00:51:44.620 animosity toward Russia and wants to destroy it.
00:51:47.260 And because this goes back way before Russiagate, it's one of the reasons why I hated Russiagate
00:51:50.420 so much, not just because it was a scandal with no evidence, but because I thought it
00:51:53.700 was dangerous in the extreme to start feeding Americans again on this idea that the gravest
00:51:58.320 threat to our democracy, the existential threat, happens to be the country with the largest
00:52:03.360 nuclear stockpile that we've all been trained for generations to hate and fear.
00:52:07.500 I just knew that that was not just dangerous, but very purposeful. 0.98
00:52:10.960 And if you go back even to 2010, 2011, Hillary Clinton at the State Department was absolutely obsessed with undermining and subverting Russia. 0.91
00:52:20.000 She was openly funding, in the name of, of course, democracy, anti-Putin opposition groups.
00:52:26.000 A lot of the protests that appeared on the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg and other places were funded by the National Endowment for Democracy under Hillary Clinton's orders, all kinds of covert operations.
00:52:36.460 When Hillary Clinton wrote her book, Hard Choices, when she got the Obama administration, the only real topic on which she clearly criticized Obama was what she thought was his refusal to, quote-unquote, confront Russia, both in Syria and in Ukraine.
00:52:54.520 And there has been this, you know, at neocons,
00:52:56.740 I mean, Jeffrey Goldberg did this interview with Obama
00:52:59.180 when he was on his way out
00:53:00.100 about the so-called Obama doctrine.
00:53:02.000 And Jeffrey Goldberg, as much as he reveres Obama,
00:53:04.580 was indignant and asking him,
00:53:06.600 why did you let Russia annex Crimea?
00:53:10.480 And why didn't you do more to stop Russia
00:53:12.440 when it came to Ukraine or Syria?
00:53:14.160 And Obama said, and if you go back and read this,
00:53:16.260 you're going to have a kind of different view of Obama.
00:53:18.660 He said, everybody in this town loves to beat their chest
00:53:22.200 and talk about how we're going to go to war
00:53:23.740 and we're going to, you know,
00:53:25.340 take not allow this and stand up to this.
00:53:27.600 And he said,
00:53:28.600 we don't have any vital interests in Ukraine.
00:53:30.620 We never have and we never will. 0.98
00:53:32.320 And Russia will always have, 0.93
00:53:34.760 look at Ukraine right on its border,
00:53:36.520 one of the most vulnerable hearts of its border
00:53:37.800 as a vital interest for obvious reasons,
00:53:41.000 the same way Mexico and Canada
00:53:42.160 are always going to be a vital interest to us.
00:53:44.100 And we're never going to,
00:53:46.260 they're always going to have 0.83
00:53:46.940 escalatory dominance there.
00:53:48.340 And if anyone in this town wants to stand up and say,
00:53:50.500 we should go to war with russia risk war with russia over who governs various provinces in
00:53:56.520 the donbass then let them actually say it but to me that's kind of insane and and it's just odd
00:54:03.220 because that was 2016 and it was just a couple months later when the entire democratic party 0.75
00:54:07.620 became utterly fixated on the grave threat posed by russia and you know i'll just tell you this
00:54:14.120 quick story tucker that i find that always sticks with me it's so interesting uh when i went to
00:54:19.680 russia one time i think it was like the second or third time after working with snowden there was a
00:54:25.200 time when snowden was trapped inside the international airport and the u.s government
00:54:30.180 didn't want anything more in the world than to get their hands on snowden and he was in russian
00:54:34.920 custody but inside the the airport because russia hadn't let him in and he couldn't and he couldn't
00:54:38.800 leave they were offering the russians everything that the russians wanted you may have all these
00:54:43.440 russian fugitives i'll hand them over to you and the russians refused and i thought for sure
00:54:47.700 Snowden was going to be handed over to the U.S., given what a high priority it was for the U.S.
00:54:52.920 And when I went to Russia, I asked, like, there was such an obvious deal there to be made. Why
00:54:56.840 wasn't the deal made? And what I was told was, in part, it's because Russia has, the Russian 0.95
00:55:03.820 identity has always been about offering free haven to those oppressed and persecuted in the West,
00:55:09.360 and they seeking refuge in Russia is kind of fundamental to Russia. And so if Putin turned
00:55:15.300 Snowden over to the U.S., it would be seen as anti-Russian, would be. I know a lot of people
00:55:19.360 in the U.S. think he's a totalitarian leader who doesn't have to care about Russian public opinion.
00:55:23.480 Of course, that's an absurd fairy tale. And they said he probably just would provoke so much
00:55:28.900 outrage that nothing would be really worth it. But they said the real reason is that so often
00:55:33.620 the U.S. and Russia end up not being able to do deals that are so obviously in both sides,
00:55:38.600 rational self-interest, because there's like this DNA, generationally cultivated hatred
00:55:43.880 within the military and intelligence establishments
00:55:46.360 of both countries that still believe
00:55:49.020 the other is this existential enemy
00:55:50.960 long after the Cold War is over
00:55:52.540 that just almost like inertia
00:55:54.740 drive each country to want to harm the other.
00:55:58.060 So I don't know why, Tucker.
00:55:59.660 I mean, it seems to me like the US and Russia
00:56:01.600 could do a lot of business.
00:56:02.540 It did do a lot of business under Obama.
00:56:04.140 They helped negotiate the Iran deal.
00:56:07.420 They were fundamental in fighting al-Qaeda and ISIS
00:56:11.140 alongside the U.S. in Syria with Assad.
00:56:15.140 And for some reason,
00:56:17.220 people in the national security state
00:56:18.500 for all kinds of,
00:56:19.780 I'll tell you one quick part of it too.
00:56:23.500 You know, a lot of the most hawkish neocons
00:56:26.680 in the United States 0.57
00:56:27.640 are people who are refugees,
00:56:30.920 Jewish refugees from the Soviet Union,
00:56:33.200 Ukraine and every part of the Soviet Union.
00:56:37.360 And Russia, when it was the USSR,
00:56:39.280 was considered pretty hostile toward Israel.
00:56:42.460 And so a lot of people who feel alignment with Israel,
00:56:44.840 who are loyal to Israel,
00:56:46.180 have long looked at Russia, the Russians, the Soviets,
00:56:49.040 as being one of their worst enemies
00:56:51.700 because they were adversarial to Israel.
00:56:54.160 They often were aligned with the Arabs in the Middle East.
00:56:56.940 And I think a lot of it is that residual
00:56:59.220 kind of cultural allegiance
00:57:03.860 that these people continue to harbor
00:57:05.740 even once they come and become American
00:57:07.360 cannon and start working in the U.S. national security state. For the last 50 years or so,
00:57:11.760 oil has been priced pretty much exclusively in U.S. dollars. It's called the petrodollar. And
00:57:16.800 the point was to give the dollar our currency built in demand around the world. And it's worked
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00:57:26.180 oil trades in Chinese yuan or other currencies. So the dollar's share of global reserves has
00:57:31.280 dropped to its lowest level in a quarter century. Central banks around the world now have more gold
00:57:36.300 than they've had in decades.
00:57:37.640 China's buying so much gold,
00:57:39.000 it's affecting the global price.
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00:58:06.300 but a lot of these people well i mean jeffrey goldberg at the atlantic for example tory and
00:58:16.260 newland uh formerly at dick cheney's office and then the state department i mean these
00:58:20.880 are american-born people they're not from they're american soviet moldova or wherever
00:58:26.880 yeah no but their families are from there you know it's i mean marco rubio is an american-born
00:58:32.680 American, but his parents come from Cuba. And if you grew up in an immigrant home, I didn't,
00:58:38.360 but I know plenty of people who did. My grandparents were, two of my grandparents
00:58:41.420 were immigrants. You hear and then develop a kind of affinity for the worldview that looks at that
00:58:48.120 country, that country of origin as a very special country to which you owe some kind of an allegiance.
00:58:53.600 And so you don't have to come from that country, although some of them do. But I think one of the
00:58:58.760 reasons why Marco Rubio is so eager to rule Cuba, which he absolutely is and is on the verge of
00:59:03.140 doing, is because that was the lifelong dream of his parents and his extended family and community
00:59:08.200 was that the United States government, the power of it, would be used to fix what they always
00:59:12.880 regarded as their country, the one to which they always planned to go back to once it was fixed.
00:59:17.180 And that's now what Marco Rubio is going to do. And the fact that he sees the world through this
00:59:21.380 Cuban immigrant experience obviously has a major role in that. I think that's true for a lot of
00:59:25.860 different groups, including people who were Soviet Jews or whose families became refugees from Soviet
00:59:33.680 Russia. Why the fixation on? I don't know. You tell me what you think is. Well, I think there's
00:59:39.760 something I don't know. First of all, I don't know the answer, but I do know because I've listened
00:59:44.140 very carefully as someone who's been agnostic on Russia my entire life. I'd never had strong
00:59:50.080 feelings about it ever. But I've listened carefully to people describe it in Washington
00:59:55.940 at the policymaking level. And you always get this sense that they feel, and sometimes even
01:00:02.660 just say it, that they have a right to control what happens in Russia. And I've always been
01:00:07.440 confused by that. Where does that right come from? It's like, it's almost like an ownership. Like
01:00:11.440 it was ours and this guy called Putin showed up and like took it over and he's illegitimate.
01:00:17.200 And from my American perspective, I'm like, I don't know, whatever you think of Putin, but it's not my country.
01:00:22.240 He was elected.
01:00:23.520 He is very popular.
01:00:24.740 No one can dispute that.
01:00:26.440 All polls show that.
01:00:27.420 Putin is way more popular than Trump or any American leader has ever been since Teddy Roosevelt.
01:00:32.440 So it's like, I don't, where do you get this feeling that you have a right to control what happens in this country?
01:00:38.000 But I have always noticed that a lot of these people seem to feel they have that right.
01:00:41.580 well there's a you know one of the i mean i i still think russiagate of all the moral panics
01:00:47.680 that we had you know like aoc yesterday called wokeism quote-unquote crazy um even they're
01:00:53.960 being forced now to acknowledge that was some insane moral panic i'm just trying to laugh it
01:00:57.480 off like it was just some fun zany trivial thing that went a little awry as opposed to this deeply 0.70
01:01:01.760 repressive mccarthyite you know bloodthirsty campaign to destroy people's lives for the 0.89
01:01:08.040 slightest deviation or thought crimes. But in any event, that was one. COVID was one. We've had a
01:01:12.720 lot of these. And I still think Russiagate was probably among the most deranged, especially the
01:01:18.560 one that got the most buy-in. And when people started saying with a straight face, oh, this is
01:01:24.860 the Russians trying to interfere in our secret democracy. And so that was something that only
01:01:29.400 the Russians do, that there's some kind of unprecedented crime. There's a Time Magazine 0.85
01:01:35.080 cover story from 1992 or 1993 where they have on the cover uncle sam and then two like prominent
01:01:43.540 clinton adjacent political advisors and a big picture of boris yeltsin and i forget exactly
01:01:49.600 the headline is but it's something like how americans help boris yeltsin win and it was
01:01:54.380 basically an armada of americans political consultants and strategists and the like going
01:01:59.160 over and creating the brand of boris yeltsin so that we could kind of control the privatization
01:02:04.040 process and every other aspect of Russian public life, which is one of the absolute worst moments
01:02:09.600 for Russians in all of their history. And they've had a lot of terrible moments,
01:02:13.480 but that post-Gorbachev, post-Cold War privatization, Yeltsin era, Russia was
01:02:18.660 absolutely sickening and atrocious in terms of the suffering that it brought. 0.94
01:02:22.320 And Americans were boasting of the role that they played, the central role they played 0.88
01:02:26.780 in causing all that to happen so that they could have basically an American puppet,
01:02:30.440 it, which was Boris Yeltsin, at the helm of Russia. And I think you're right that when
01:02:35.600 Putin came in, and this is so often what drives American foreign policy, is obviously has nothing
01:02:41.920 to do with whether a country is or a leader is democratic or repressive. We love more than
01:02:46.820 anything pro-American dictators. The more savage, the better. The thing we can't abide, the things
01:02:52.540 that causes us to want to overthrow countries and governments and do coups and the like, is when we
01:02:57.240 can't control a particular leader. We had the war in Libya once Gaddafi wanted to use revenues from
01:03:03.420 oil reserves to fund his own people instead of sending all that foreign capital out while his
01:03:08.500 country lived in poverty and misery. That's typically what happens. And Putin very much
01:03:12.220 represented this kind of nationalistic figure who wasn't hostile at all to the West, but also
01:03:17.620 wanted to preserve his own country's traditions and especially its sovereignty. Well, I think
01:03:23.100 that's really worth saying. I mean, Putin on the spectrum of Russian politics is firmly on the
01:03:29.680 moderate side. I mean, yes, right. And pro-European in his early career was in Europe and East Germany
01:03:36.120 as a KGB officer famously speaks German. I mean, he's tried to join NATO. So this idea that like
01:03:42.280 he is a Russian nationalist who hates the West on principle or for ideological reasons or whatever
01:03:47.920 is like totally insane. 0.51
01:03:49.340 And I do think we're going to see someone like that 0.68
01:03:52.280 lead Russia next.
01:03:53.380 There's no doubt in my mind.
01:03:55.220 But where did that,
01:03:56.260 why the fixation on lying to us
01:03:59.180 about who Putin is and what that system is,
01:04:01.140 it seems crazy to me.
01:04:05.640 I mean, this is what the US government does
01:04:08.360 and its allied media institutions do
01:04:11.580 when they want to demonize a foreign leader
01:04:13.520 to justify a war.
01:04:14.680 I mean, I, you know,
01:04:15.960 So the Democratic Party, and not just, you know, say like the Chuck Schumer wing of the Democratic Party, but AOC, Ilhan Omar, the whole squad, like every as far left as you can go to the far center right as you can go, were unanimous from the start in wanting to take hundreds of billions of dollars that they claim they really want to use to improve the material lives of American citizens at home.
01:04:41.940 and they wanted to send it to the coffers of Raytheon and Boeing and Palantir in order to
01:04:47.440 fuel the NATO war that does not save Ukraine. It sacrifices Ukraine for the geopolitical of
01:04:53.840 weakening Russia. Not a single Democrat dissented. I think now there was recently some exchange where
01:05:00.360 Ilhan Omar and Summer Lee said something, accused some neocon member of the Senate with whom they
01:05:07.480 were arguing online well you're the one who paid for the bombs that are dropping on on these people
01:05:12.260 and he reminded them no you're at you you also voted to send the money to to buy those bombs
01:05:17.740 for for ukraine and i think some of them are starting to have a little bit of second thoughts
01:05:21.960 once they see just how this war is escalating it's still very dangerous but that is when you
01:05:28.100 can create a kind of demonized single-headed figure and it's always based on this lie that
01:05:34.040 he's an absolute
01:05:36.140 autocrat. You just
01:05:38.100 make the country personalized into
01:05:40.080 that leader. It's a very standard neocon pro-war
01:05:42.180 propaganda technique. It's like,
01:05:44.140 I don't know if you remember, but back in 2008,
01:05:46.320 2010, we were constantly told that
01:05:47.960 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the
01:05:50.040 new Hitler. There's been so
01:05:52.140 many new Hitlers since and before.
01:05:54.640 He served two constitutional
01:05:56.000 terms, walked out of office
01:05:57.940 peacefully. No one has ever heard of him again until recently
01:06:00.160 when apparently the Israelis were trying to
01:06:01.760 reinstall him as the new leader.
01:06:04.040 of Iran, like the new Hitler. And of course, you know, Saddam, all these people we were once 0.97
01:06:08.500 aligned with, did business with, suddenly become overnight, you know, this wild caricature. If you
01:06:14.240 go back and look at what every American leader has said, who dealt with Vladimir Putin, going
01:06:18.100 back to Bill Clinton and George Bush and Obama, they always said he's a very rational, trustworthy,
01:06:24.300 you know, calculating leader. You can do agreements with him. And again, both Bush and Obama worked
01:06:30.080 closely with putin in all sorts of ways and then suddenly when it was time to fuel a war and to 0.85
01:06:35.760 re-demonize russia suddenly became putin is this madman unlike anything we've seen since hitler
01:06:41.120 you know overnight the the narrative changes and so many people uh succumb to it and that is one of
01:06:50.040 the main prongs of war propaganda is just to demonize these other political leaders so if
01:06:55.600 If AOC is describing wokeness as excessive or trying to make it laugh it off, or I saw
01:07:02.420 that she said yesterday that calling for the abolition of police, that's just something
01:07:06.560 you say during a pandemic.
01:07:08.080 I mean, just kind of joking around.
01:07:09.800 It's just a Halloween costume she wore for a day and discarded.
01:07:13.040 If she's talking like that, she's running for president, obviously.
01:07:17.920 How would you evaluate her politics?
01:07:20.540 If you're trying to understand, particularly for someone like me who's not a lifelong Democrat,
01:07:25.600 Who is she and how different is she from, say, Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer or Steny Hoyer or just the Democratic leadership?
01:07:35.660 I think the person who understood much earlier than almost anybody else who AOC was is Marjorie Taylor Greene.
01:07:47.160 Marjorie Taylor Greene,
01:07:48.160 even before what kind of became
01:07:49.960 her eye-opening and awakening
01:07:51.980 and transformation,
01:07:53.720 used to always object to this notion
01:07:55.440 that AOC was some kind of radical,
01:07:57.840 some kind of threat to establishment,
01:08:00.040 status quo dogma.
01:08:01.940 And she would always say,
01:08:02.960 AOC is not a radical.
01:08:04.280 AOC is a fraud. 1.00
01:08:05.920 She's a partisan hack. 1.00
01:08:07.540 She's there to put a kind of happier face 1.00
01:08:10.660 for younger people to commandeer 0.94
01:08:12.920 and steer them into the Democratic Party
01:08:14.420 and make them feel as though
01:08:15.560 they're joining a party.
01:08:16.460 that isn't really chuck schumer and joe biden's party or bill clinton and hillary clinton's party
01:08:21.080 it's like a nicer more socialistic kind of softer younger hipper version and in that way she kind
01:08:27.320 of becomes the democratic party's principal tool there's nothing in aoc's life remotely that
01:08:31.780 suggests any kind of anti-establishment or uh radical impulses of any kind you know she got
01:08:40.360 lucky she ran against uh one of these kind of guys who even though he is extremely powerful
01:08:46.160 within dc you know spends all his time in the back rooms yeah uh with lobbyists writing the
01:08:50.820 laws which is joe crawley who was going to be the successor nancy pelosi he's the kind of guy that
01:08:55.000 never goes on any shows no one in his district knows him doesn't know his name hasn't seen him
01:08:59.540 he has nothing to do with his district except he like nominally represents it so because she took
01:09:04.120 out a member of the Democratic establishment and was nominally part of DSA. Her branding was that
01:09:11.140 suited her that she was this very radical figure. She's anything but that. To me, she already has
01:09:16.860 morphed into Nancy Pelosi. Nancy Pelosi used to at one time be considered far too to the left from 1.00
01:09:22.580 San Francisco. And then all she did was she actually became extremely hawkish. Nancy Pelosi 1.00
01:09:26.780 made this very provocative visit to Taiwan to treat the Taiwanese. It was almost like a state
01:09:31.140 visit. It was very provocative to the Chinese 1.00
01:09:33.180 against what the Biden administration
01:09:34.820 was willing to do. She was an absolute hawk
01:09:37.220 on Israel and Iran and pretty
01:09:39.140 much everything else. She was
01:09:41.020 few people served corporate power 0.96
01:09:43.260 and corporate interests more than Nancy Pelosi. 1.00
01:09:45.080 AOC is well on her way to being that. 0.91
01:09:47.880 And we've seen it.
01:09:49.160 I mean, I could give you a thousand examples, but
01:09:50.820 suffice to say that that's who she really is.
01:09:54.480 The DSA
01:09:55.080 is descendant, obviously, and
01:09:57.200 DSA candidates are starting to win in primaries,
01:09:59.440 famously New York 3-1.
01:10:01.140 um are there dsa-led protests against the war with russia because it seems to me if you were
01:10:07.360 like actually against the establishment there's no bigger establishment project in the war against
01:10:12.760 russia it's been ongoing as you just said for 30 years and it enriches raytheon and boeing and the
01:10:18.800 rest of the defense contractors so like if you were a radical political party you'd start by
01:10:25.900 opposing that, are they? Well, some are. And I'll tell you this interesting thing. When I first
01:10:33.580 started really kind of connecting to and immersing myself in critiques of foreign policy and U.S.
01:10:40.240 oligarchy and the like, the models that I used were kind of what you might now call the old left,
01:10:46.540 like the ACLU civil libertarian. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
01:10:48.760 skokie you know even noam chomsky who was like just you know who thought that the intelligence
01:10:54.280 agencies and and the military industrial complex were the greatest evil what is the last time you
01:10:59.780 heard anybody associated on the left with any kind of platform like bernie sanders or aoc
01:11:04.380 talk about the evils of the cia or the uh or the the nsa oh they endorse abigail spanberger
01:11:11.420 as the cia literally takes over the commonwealth of virginia exactly at least and of the democratic 1.00
01:11:17.240 Party. And the reason is in so many ways, because Russiagate was a, basically it was a hoax that
01:11:23.540 emanated from the CIA and the FBI. And those people became the allies of the Democratic Party
01:11:28.520 against Trump. And they aligned with those people. Just to give you a very quick little
01:11:34.840 anecdote into that, well, Matt Taibbi went to testify about the Twitter files that showed this
01:11:40.260 constant, endless, coercive pressure from the Biden administration on big tech, including
01:11:45.240 Twitter to censor COVID dissidents, they had this guy, Colin Allred, who was a, who's a
01:11:51.340 Democratic congressman from Texas who said, you know, you should take off your tinfoil hat and
01:11:56.500 realize that maybe the good folks of the CIA and the FBI are censoring, not for any nefarious
01:12:01.800 purposes, but because they want to keep you safe. I was like, that's a democratic party is now the
01:12:08.460 one that tells you that you should be grateful for CIA censorship because all they want to do
01:12:12.540 is just help the good people stay safe and that's what the democratic party has become and that's
01:12:16.800 why there was basically no opposition to the you know they were told russia was what put trump in
01:12:21.960 office that that russia was the absolute aggressor and this was these were war crimes similar to the
01:12:28.280 worst wars you can imagine they all got just overnight convinced to to want to pour hundreds
01:12:32.760 of billions of dollars into the uh arms industry one of the candidates who won in new york dara 1.00
01:12:38.020 Liza Chevalier, who was actually one of the least likely to win. She ran against that 0.99
01:12:43.900 eight-year incumbent who was the head of the House Progressive Hispanic Caucus, and she won.
01:12:50.720 She was actually somebody who has a history of saying, we're not going to support this NATO war.
01:12:55.900 Why are we spending all this money to fund the NATO war against Russia, that sacrificing Ukrainians?
01:13:03.320 I was so happy to finally find someone on the left who reconnected to that old. 0.53
01:13:08.480 And, you know, she kind of quickly has downplayed it because Ukraine remains a religion on the left.
01:13:12.400 So there is some of that more positive radicalism among some of these DSA candidates.
01:13:17.680 The problem, though, Tucker, you see this with Trump and the MAGA movement, and you've definitely seen it with a lot of these supposedly radical candidates who became adjacent to the Democratic Party,
01:13:27.440 is you can think that you're taking over these parties
01:13:30.100 in order to like commandeer them
01:13:32.280 and their power to change their dogma to yours,
01:13:35.540 but infinitely more likely for so many reasons
01:13:38.180 is that it will commandeer you 0.99
01:13:40.100 and it will suck you in 0.99
01:13:42.520 and it will severely limit,
01:13:44.900 even if you have radical ideas or impulses
01:13:46.960 or outside of the norm or anti-establishment thoughts,
01:13:49.680 will severely limit your ability to advocate them
01:13:52.280 and to impose them.
01:13:53.140 that is uh the most bracing fact and i'm glad you said that but i'm also sort of sorry you said that
01:14:01.700 because it's so depressing do you see i mean is there anywhere and i almost hate to use the word
01:14:07.720 radical because i think this is also reasonable and pro-human like don't fight wars if you don't
01:14:12.920 have to don't you know lie to your own population these are not right these are not radical they
01:14:18.440 should be like foundational beliefs. But anyway, they're radical in this context
01:14:22.020 of our politics. Do you see any movement, actual reform movement rising out of the betrayal of
01:14:31.780 MAGA and the corruption of everyone else? I mean, the problem is, is that
01:14:37.860 our system of government has been constantly fortified each decade to make it harder and
01:14:45.760 harder to exist outside of the duopoly. And the reason is obvious that all politicians are either
01:14:51.100 members of the Republican or Democratic Party. And one of their most common interests is to make
01:14:55.680 sure that you only have the Democratic and Republican Party and that it's virtually
01:14:58.980 impossible for anyone to compete in a meaningful way with it. And so every law that gets passed,
01:15:05.060 every time there's election laws rewritten, every time it's in the direction of making it
01:15:09.200 increasingly more difficult for any kind of independent party or movement or third party
01:15:14.400 that wants to remain independent of both parties
01:15:16.600 to have any meaningful success.
01:15:18.860 I have to say, you know,
01:15:19.620 there are countries like in Europe,
01:15:22.000 in South America, including in Brazil,
01:15:23.440 that have a multi-party system.
01:15:26.080 Brazil has been like 26 parties, for example,
01:15:28.680 represented in the Congress.
01:15:30.500 But even in the democratic world,
01:15:32.020 things are starting to get polarized as well
01:15:34.200 between whether it's the populist and the populist right
01:15:37.800 or the populist right and the establishment left,
01:15:40.560 because people are just living on this politics of fear.
01:15:42.980 Like you don't have to like who you support
01:15:44.360 as long as they're less scary than the alternative.
01:15:47.800 So that's kind of a cultural norm
01:15:50.440 that has been developed and imposed
01:15:52.400 that further strengthens this difficulty.
01:15:55.440 At the same time,
01:15:56.480 like everything we've been talking about
01:15:57.720 throughout this entire discussion
01:15:59.020 is about the fact that Americans are,
01:16:02.160 you know, and this is for me what led to
01:16:03.820 not just selection of Trump, by the way,
01:16:05.300 but actually Obama as well, more than anything else,
01:16:07.840 is these were figures so unlikely in the past
01:16:10.920 and became possible only because people wanted
01:16:13.880 unlikely figures. They wanted the figures that didn't look like they came from the establishment
01:16:18.540 that they've come more and more to hate with good reason every year. And that is creating an
01:16:23.400 instability, which as you said before, can be scary because instability can lead to things
01:16:27.720 that are even worse than what you're rebelling against in the first place. But instability also
01:16:32.080 entails a lot of opportunity. And I can't tell you exactly how or when, but we are getting to
01:16:37.840 the point, I think, where people who never before would have considered it are going to be much more
01:16:42.300 open to identifying with movements or even kind of campaigns or parties that are not connected to
01:16:50.160 or identifying as Republican or Democrat. We've seen ones in the past that have worked like
01:16:55.680 Ross Perot. Of course, he was a billionaire, which is maybe what you need. But he had a very
01:17:02.120 successful third party candidacy based on the support by both Clinton and Bush 41 for a free
01:17:08.500 trade that, as he very presciently warned, would de-industrialize the country, suck out all jobs.
01:17:13.660 And, you know, you've seen that before, but I think we've never been more right for it because
01:17:18.600 both parties are hated and the system itself is hated. And I think people are craving
01:17:25.180 a credible alternative. It's just hard to create a credible alternative,
01:17:28.940 given all the barriers that have been deliberately erected.
01:17:32.120 But something is coming. You feel that?
01:17:33.840 for sure i mean no doubt how can it not i mean this is you know the biggest myth the biggest
01:17:40.980 lie of our political system is that the two political parties can't agree on anything they're
01:17:45.800 always at each other's throats it's always so polarized the reality is that the two political
01:17:49.880 parties agree on 90 at least of major policy issues the only time the media covers it is in
01:17:57.140 those very few cases when they disagree and it casts the appearance that they're always disagreeing
01:18:01.300 Obama himself, when, you know, they used to use this very vitriolic language against him,
01:18:05.600 like John Boehner and the House Republicans, he would always say in private, we all know it's
01:18:09.780 theater. We're all playing within the 40-yard line, you know, the two 40-yard lines. That's
01:18:14.860 the reality of the two political parties in the United States. This myth that there's these vast
01:18:19.080 fundamental differences between these two parties is crucial to giving you the sense that you have
01:18:23.880 this wild freedom, that everything is just so free-spirited and nothing is controlled or
01:18:29.720 limited when in reality, there's lockdown on most policy debates because both parties are fully
01:18:33.940 on board because they serve the same donor classes. They serve the same interests. And that is, I
01:18:40.900 think more and more people are realizing that. And I mean, the fact that we elected Donald Trump
01:18:45.460 twice, for me, pretty much proves that anything is possible. You have this amazing ability to
01:18:52.200 crystallize and explain things I've suspected or believed, but better than I ever could is
01:18:58.040 really the smartest. Glenn Greenwald, thank you
01:19:00.080 very much for that.
01:19:02.020 Always great talking to you, Dunker.
01:19:03.540 Thanks.