The Tucker Carlson Show - “Prepare for War” - Tucker Confronts Britain’s Most Pro-War Advocate

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00:00:19.900 Mr. Eastmark, thank you very much for having us in your home.

00:00:23.060 It's really pretty.

00:00:24.440 I'm sad to think of it being destroyed in the war you described.

00:00:27.600 What is this war and why do you have to fight it?

00:00:30.780 Okay.

00:00:31.780 What I've said is that the United Kingdom needs to be prepared for war.

00:00:36.140 That we are coming under attack in various ways from Russia.

00:00:39.480 We've had murders and attempted murders take place.

00:00:42.260 There was an attempted murder in Salisbury.

00:00:44.140 And there was a murder that took place in London by agents of Putin.

00:00:47.760 That Putin has invaded Ukraine and he is making threatening noises.

00:00:53.380 that some Russian people close to the state, not formally of the state,

00:00:58.920 have talked about the potential for nuclear war.

00:01:01.280 And the way to avoid war is to prepare for it.

00:01:04.660 And if you're prepared for war, it doesn't happen.

00:01:07.940 So that's what I'm talking about.

00:01:09.380 It's the preparedness, which I'm worried that we don't have.

00:01:13.740 Why would Putin want to threaten Britain?

00:01:17.140 Well, he is threatening Britain already.

00:01:18.400 I wonder why.

00:01:19.520 Why has he tried to poison people in Salisbury?

00:01:22.260 Why have his submarines been poking around near our undersea cables?

00:01:27.860 Do you have any sense of why?

00:01:29.060 Why would he want to do that?

00:01:30.620 Well, I think he wishes to reassert the power of Russia, which in many ways is now a failing state,

00:01:38.300 that its economy has been in the doldrums for years since the decline of the Soviet Union. 0.76

00:01:43.400 It's lost a good deal of territory, which is a very un-Russian thing,

00:01:48.800 that if you go really from the Romanovs taking charge in Russia

00:01:53.080 through to the collapse of the Soviet Union,

00:01:56.280 in most years, Russia expands.

00:02:00.380 And then you get the collapse of the Soviet Union

00:02:02.360 and Russia suddenly shrinks.

00:02:04.500 And it seems to me that that is looked upon by some Russians

00:02:07.220 as a matter of shame and against the historic destiny of Russia. 0.93

00:02:11.440 Hence, of course, the reason for activity in Georgia 0.89

00:02:15.140 and more recently in Ukraine.

00:02:18.800 clearly Russia wants some control over its neighbors.

00:02:22.000 It wants a sphere of influence as a nuclear armed power.

00:02:25.640 But I wonder, and assuming that everything you're saying is true

00:02:28.500 and we could debate it,

00:02:30.480 it still doesn't explain why Russia would want to pick a fight with Britain.

00:02:35.240 It's got a much larger economy than Britain's by, I think, basic measure.

00:02:40.160 No, no, no, it hasn't got a larger economy than Britain's.

00:02:41.680 It's got a smaller economy than Britain's.

00:02:43.340 It's got a larger military.

00:02:45.740 It's a much larger economy.

00:02:46.720 I mean, it has much more wealth and resources, and it has a much larger manufacturing sector.

00:02:51.280 Its GDP is smaller than the UK's.

00:02:53.880 Yeah, but GDP is not, I mean, the only measure of an economy.

00:02:57.540 It's a pretty important measure of an economy.

00:02:59.960 It's one measure. 0.76

00:03:01.400 Russia is an economic failure. 0.98

00:03:04.440 But it could have a huge economy, but it's got a small economy because it's deeply corrupt, 0.81

00:03:11.260 and it hasn't managed to use its resources effectively.

00:03:15.240 And so, although the population of Russia is bigger than that of the United Kingdom, very significantly,

00:03:21.620 its GDP per capita is so much lower that the total GDP of Russia is smaller than that of the United Kingdom.

00:03:27.820 Right.

00:03:28.720 Its inherent wealth dwarfs that of the UK.

00:03:32.060 It's the largest country in the world.

00:03:34.240 But leaving aside that, I'm not in charge of central planning in Russia.

00:03:36.520 Yeah, but inherent wealth isn't very useful, is it? 0.68

00:03:38.600 There are lots of African countries that have huge resources that have never been able to use them.

00:03:42.120 It depends what your timeline is.

00:03:43.200 Well, if you go for hundreds of years, they haven't used them.

00:03:47.380 Russia has consistently been a poor country in spite of its resources.

00:03:51.580 Okay. 0.97

00:03:52.440 I don't agree, but I will grant you that.

00:03:54.300 Okay.

00:03:54.920 But it still doesn't explain why Russia would benefit from fighting with the UK.

00:04:00.480 Do you imagine that they want to take your territory?

00:04:03.480 Russia has already shown itself to be aggressive, as we saw with the invasion of Ukraine,

00:04:08.960 which was not only illegal in international law,

00:04:15.020 but also against a specific agreement between Russia, the United States, the UK, and Ukraine,

00:04:22.780 that in return for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons,

00:04:27.300 Russia and the other signatories would allow its territorial integrity to be maintained.

00:04:34.560 We can debate why that war started.

00:04:37.120 I have a completely different view from yours, but these are subjective questions.

00:04:41.340 But I feel like we're avoiding the question I have asked you now three times,

00:04:44.860 which is why does any of that add up to Russia threatening the U.K.?

00:04:51.240 Do you believe in cause and effect?

00:04:52.640 Do you think there's some reason that Russia is mad at the U.K.?

00:04:55.260 Why do dictators attack?

00:04:57.560 They do because they can.

00:04:58.620 But you're nowhere near Russia.

00:04:59.820 This is not Belarus.

00:05:01.400 But we have the NATO agreement with Poland, which must feel under attack.

00:05:04.780 We know that the Baltic states feel threatened.

00:05:08.660 We know there have been cyber attacks on the Baltic states.

00:05:12.080 So, of course, we should be concerned about our fellow NATO members.

00:05:15.380 And we have Article 5 of NATO, which would then involve us.

00:05:18.460 And we've got Russians saying bellicose things about the United Kingdom.

00:05:23.220 So, of course, we should be aware.

00:05:24.460 But do you have any sense of why?

00:05:26.040 I guess it's—here's the point that I'm attempting to make,

00:05:29.200 and I just think it's important to understand it, whether or not you approve of it, 0.59

00:05:31.860 which is that from the Russian perspective, you are helping to fund a war against Russia.

00:05:36.640 And so, therefore, you're a combatant in that war.

00:05:38.520 They feel this way about the United States as well, and Germany, NATO.

00:05:43.380 But that is a legitimate perspective.

00:05:47.040 Can you not see that, that there's a reason that they're mad at the UK?

00:05:50.100 Well, Russia invaded Ukraine.

00:05:52.280 Right, but this is not Ukraine. This is the UK.

00:05:54.500 That's right. And what the UK is doing is supporting Ukraine and defending its territorial integrity.

00:05:59.060 Fighting a war against Russia.

00:06:00.160 So you are participating in a war.

00:06:02.320 But this is exactly the same as America helping Kuwait rescue itself from Iraq.

00:06:06.580 Right, except Iraq didn't have nuclear weapons.

00:06:09.480 But do you believe in territorial integrity of nation states?

00:06:12.680 In my own, for sure.

00:06:14.280 I'm not sure the territorial integrity of someone else's state is worth risking my life for.

00:06:20.660 The question is, first of all, can you guarantee it?

00:06:23.320 America did. 0.57

00:06:24.780 So do you think that was wrong? 0.84

00:06:26.700 Probably.

00:06:27.180 Because the quid pro quo was that Ukraine would have kept its nuclear weapons.

00:06:30.620 So you're saying Ukraine should have kept its nuclear weapons.

00:06:32.360 Well, there were many subsequent arrangements that were violated on all sides.

00:06:36.860 No, this is the fundamental point, which you're trying to get away from.

00:06:39.660 So let me put this back to you.

00:06:41.080 Please do.

00:06:41.580 The United States made an agreement with Ukraine, Russia, and the United Kingdom

00:06:45.300 that the territorial integrity of Ukraine would be inviolable

00:06:49.000 on condition that Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons.

00:06:52.760 Oh, no, you are mistaken.

00:06:54.200 The United States has never pledged to go to war with Russia.

00:06:57.760 I didn't say it did.

00:06:58.840 Okay, then it's what you're saying is immaterial, actually.

00:07:01.400 No, I'm saying it made this agreement with the other parties.

00:07:04.620 So there's a treaty that obligates the United States to fight a war against Russia?

00:07:07.320 No, it doesn't obligate it to fight a war.

00:07:08.160 Okay, then it's irrelevant what you're saying.

00:07:09.700 I'm saying that if you don't think America has an interest in this,

00:07:13.560 it shouldn't have signed the treaty, 0.61

00:07:14.900 and then Ukraine should have kept its nuclear weapons.

00:07:17.080 There is no treaty that obligates the United States,

00:07:19.460 I'm speaking with authority on this,

00:07:20.760 to fight Russia on the basis of what Russia did in February of 2020. 0.66

00:07:24.580 I'm well aware of that. 0.63

00:07:25.540 I'm well aware of what was said in relation to the nuclear weapons.

00:07:29.040 It is not an agreement to go to war, nor, strictly speaking, is Article 5 of NATO.

00:07:33.860 It's not a requirement to go to war.

00:07:35.400 It is a request that can be ignored.

00:07:37.600 It's not an automatic act of war that the member state affected can call upon Article 5.

00:07:44.200 I'm aware of that.

00:07:44.540 But it doesn't require an automatic response.

00:07:46.400 But what you're saying is that this treaty that was signed, where Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons, was entirely pointless.

00:07:52.200 Well, of course I'm not saying that at all.

00:07:53.360 What I'm saying is that there have been many subsequent agreements since, including a verbal agreement, which has been testified to by people who are present, that the United States would not expand NATO to Russia's borders, which is an understandable concern of Russia. 0.79

00:08:07.120 You don't want nuclear weapons controlled by another country on your borders.

00:08:10.220 Why would you?

00:08:11.540 And so, look, a lot has happened.

00:08:13.080 There was the overthrow of the Ukrainian government by NATO in 2014.

00:08:19.640 A lot has happened.

00:08:20.700 All sorts of things have happened.

00:08:21.740 My only point is right now we're on the brink of a nuclear exchange, and the question is why. 0.82

00:08:26.600 And I don't understand why it's in Britain's interest to be at war with Russia. 0.67

00:08:30.200 What I am arguing is that if we are prepared for war, war becomes less likely.

00:08:34.820 That's the whole basis of deterrence.

00:08:36.460 It's the whole reason.

00:08:37.600 But if you stop fighting the war, they will be less likely to nuke you.

00:08:41.480 Oh, no, that's not true.

00:08:42.460 If you don't support Ukraine, if you allow Russia to take Ukraine, then it moves on to the next object.

00:08:50.260 Why is it up to the UK to decide whether or not Russia takes Ukraine?

00:08:55.880 Because it's strongly in our national interest and indeed of the United States.

00:08:59.080 In what way?

00:08:59.780 Because the one fundamental thing of the world order is the integrity of nation states.

00:09:05.380 If all nation states are up for grabs, for whichever country wants to take it, then why shouldn't China take Taiwan tomorrow?

00:09:13.620 Well, I don't know whether the UK can affect—

00:09:17.520 Would you worry to be a—

00:09:18.740 I assume that's going to happen, of course.

00:09:21.420 So you don't mind nation states invading each other?

00:09:23.840 I mind a lot of things, but the question is not simply do I think it's wrong.

00:09:28.800 The question is can I do anything about it and at what cost to my own population?

00:09:32.420 Well, you can.

00:09:33.200 So it's a much more complicated calculation than the one you're presenting.

00:09:36.560 You can if you project strength.

00:09:38.700 And I'm afraid what the West did towards Russia was project weakness that the agreements made over the Crimea by Germany and France made it look to Putin that he could do what he wanted.

00:09:52.440 He then miscalculated with Ukraine and found that the West was not going to go along with that.

00:09:59.000 And it's very important that you don't allow dictators to miscalculate.

00:10:03.160 Same is true of Saddam Hussein.

00:10:04.820 Saddam Hussein thought that he had had a message from the CIA,

00:10:08.340 and I'm sure you know all of this,

00:10:09.800 that invading Kuwait would not upset the Americans.

00:10:13.140 And when you project weakness, you make war more likely.

00:10:17.620 Well, the Cold War was one of the most intense moments in our history.

00:10:20.680 Regular people lived in fear of getting blown up by a nuke.

00:10:24.020 No one had any idea how that war would end.

00:10:26.500 It's easy to think that we knew for 50 years what we didn't

00:10:30.380 until the end that we would win.

00:10:32.260 So if you like history, you probably do like history,

00:10:34.420 you ought to learn more about this portion of American history.

00:10:38.540 And that's why you ought to watch a movie called The Brink of War.

00:10:41.120 It's streaming now on Angel.

00:10:43.000 The Brink of War takes viewers inside Ronald Reagan

00:10:45.380 and Mikhail Gorbachev's negotiations to end their country's stalemate.

00:10:48.860 And it shows how much the rest of the world sat on the edge of its seat

00:10:53.500 to see what would happen.

00:10:54.820 Millions of lives were at stake.

00:10:57.680 Now, unlike the leaders we have now,

00:10:59.660 Reagan understood that preventing a conflict was the only good outcome for the U.S. Nuclear war

00:11:05.460 is the ultimate disaster. That's wise, and that wisdom guided him along the path to peace. Though 0.55

00:11:11.500 he could have chosen war, he didn't. So watching this film makes you realize how much modern

00:11:17.840 Washington differs from previous generations, and not for the better. So if you're interested in

00:11:23.540 peace, in leadership, in diplomacy, then the brink of war is something you want to watch.

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00:12:39.680 Well, I think if you truncate the story, you can tell yourself that.

00:12:44.900 But you are truncating the story because that war ended in 1991, the first Gulf War.

00:12:50.640 And then 12 years later, there was another Gulf War in which more than a million people were killed.

00:12:55.500 Okay, on the second Gulf War, I share exactly—

00:12:57.540 And now there is—

00:12:58.520 Okay, on the second— 0.83

00:12:59.520 22 years later, another Gulf War, and Iran is using Iraq as a staging base to hit the United States. 0.79

00:13:06.140 So how did this work? 0.86

00:13:07.340 Okay, on the second Gulf War, I share what I think is your view. 0.60

00:13:10.760 I think you supported it at the time, but now I think it was a mistake.

00:13:14.440 I thought it was a mistake when I went to Iraq in December of 2003.

00:13:18.000 I knew immediately it was a mistake, and I've been apologizing ever since.

00:13:20.460 Let me do so again. I apologize.

00:13:21.920 I think it was a mistake, too. 1.00

00:13:23.200 I agree with you that the first Gulf War, I think, was absolutely right 0.94

00:13:26.840 because it was about the territorial integrity of nation-states.

00:13:30.120 I think there's one fundamental.

00:13:31.520 Well, if it was right, then how did it result in another war less than 15 years later?

00:13:35.440 Because the other war was none of our business.

00:13:37.120 It was the internal affairs of Iraq on a pretext of nuclear weapons that didn't exist. 0.65

00:13:41.920 But hold on.

00:13:42.820 The two wars are completely different.

00:13:44.320 And actually, George Bush Sr. got it right, because he had the opportunity to take Iraq

00:13:54.160 at the end of the first Gulf War. And he said, no, that is not the objective of this mission.

00:14:00.960 The objective of the mission was the territorial integrity of Kuwait. Now, where I think I disagree

00:14:06.460 with you is that the fundamental building block of any form of world order is the nation state.

00:14:14.320 And that therefore it's in all our interests to protect the nation state.

00:14:18.900 Because if aggressors can invade one nation state and get away with it, they will carry on.

00:14:23.920 And then you've got no global order at all.

00:14:26.180 Where I think we have made a mistake is in liberal interventionism, which I'm opposed to. 1.00

00:14:32.480 I think it is not my business how Iraq is managed internally by Iraqis. 0.99

00:14:38.540 That is a matter for them. 0.98

00:14:39.920 Or how Putin manages Russia.

00:14:41.700 Then why do you keep describing Putin as a dictator, as distinct from Zelensky, who has not been elected in seven years?

00:14:49.700 He's canceled the elections and banned the largest Christian denomination in the country and imprisoned people for criticizing him.

00:14:56.700 So he's not a dictator.

00:14:57.840 It would be very difficult for me to criticize him on canceling elections.

00:15:00.700 It's exactly what the UK did during the First and Second World War.

00:15:02.980 I'm merely saying, if you're not a liberal interventionist, why is Putin's form of government even material?

00:15:08.500 Why do you care?

00:15:09.400 It's up to him how he governs Russia. 0.86

00:15:10.960 It is my business when he starts invading neighboring countries. 0.80

00:15:14.180 But the question is not whether or not you approve of one nation's territorial expansion

00:15:18.660 or its need to control its neighbors, which is, by the way, the state of play for all great powers.

00:15:23.080 No country with nuclear weapons will tolerate another nation's nuclear weapons on its border, of course.

00:15:30.160 Well, that's the Cuban Missile Crisis, yes.

00:15:32.160 Of course.

00:15:33.020 Well, it's the current Iran war, because Israel and nuclear-armed power did not want Iran to have a nuclear weapon.

00:15:38.560 And I'm not criticizing anyone involved. 0.90

00:15:39.460 And this is very sensible. 0.64

00:15:40.360 We do not want Iran to have a nuclear weapon.

00:15:41.760 I don't want anyone to have a nuclear weapon.

00:15:43.000 I'm just saying that this is...

00:15:44.120 I want Britain to have nuclear weapons,

00:15:45.460 and I don't mind the United States having them.

00:15:46.720 I don't want anyone on our trails to have them.

00:15:48.200 I'm really saying that we can't be surprised by that response

00:15:51.600 because that's just the nature of great powers, okay?

00:15:55.080 Yes, that must be right.

00:15:56.240 My question is, what can you do about it?

00:16:00.660 So you have said that weakness abets aggression.

00:16:04.080 That's right.

00:16:04.420 Which is an often repeated axiom, 0.95

00:16:06.520 which I'm sure is entirely true, but it can be true.

00:16:10.420 But what's your option?

00:16:12.820 So Britain right now has apparently a military strength of under 19,000 ready for combat.

00:16:22.380 So for perspective, you know, there are battles in the First World War in which Britain lost more than 19,000 in one day.

00:16:28.260 So that's nothing.

00:16:30.220 Russia has one of the most powerful militaries in the world, a standing army of a million and a half.

00:16:34.280 Well, that's not necessarily the same as one of the most powerful militaries in the world, is it?

00:16:37.580 A very large number of troops is not necessarily a powerful army.

00:16:40.140 No, it's not. That's right.

00:16:41.360 But I'm not, and by the way, it's hard to know exactly how powerful the Russian military is.

00:16:45.360 It's very easy to know how powerful the British military is, which is not at all.

00:16:48.860 So, like, what is this?

00:16:50.040 Everyone thought the Russian military was sufficiently powerful that it could roll up Ukraine in a fortnight.

00:16:54.760 And it failed.

00:16:56.340 Well, they could send hypersonic missiles into Kiev today and end the war.

00:17:01.400 We're relying on Putin's restraint not to do that.

00:17:04.020 They could also nuke Ukraine if they wanted.

00:17:06.820 They could, but that would be... 0.75

00:17:08.780 I'm just saying, as a material fact, they have restrained themselves to a land war with people.

00:17:15.640 Where they were thought to be overwhelmingly powerful, and they've turned out not to be.

00:17:20.380 Well, they could be overwhelmingly powerful if they wanted to, like this afternoon, and they decided not to.

00:17:24.840 Well, they used nuclear weapons, but without...

00:17:27.060 They used hypersonic weapons, which can't be stopped. 0.69

00:17:28.960 If they took it up to an enormous stage, but actually, in 2022, people thought Russia would walk in and roll up Ukraine within a fortnight.

00:17:36.820 But again, do you disagree that they could if they wanted to today end this war?

00:17:42.260 Of course they could.

00:17:42.860 Well, I think if they took it to another level, they would risk other people.

00:17:47.440 If you keep pushing them, they'll do it.

00:17:48.640 And maybe that's the basis of this conversation, which is why are you pushing them to that point?

00:17:52.120 No, I'm not pushing them.

00:17:53.740 I'm pushing us to be prepared because they are making attacks on the West.

00:17:58.100 And we know this.

00:17:59.040 They are making cyber attacks.

00:18:00.460 They are making…

00:18:01.120 But do you see a connection between what the West is doing and Russia's attacks on the West?

00:18:05.600 Or is this just, what would be the other explanation for why they're doing this?

00:18:09.080 I actually think the reason for Russia going into Ukraine, what allowed them to do it, was our weakness earlier over the Crimea.

00:18:17.080 And that made it look as if we didn't really care.

00:18:19.940 And then it turned out that we did care.

00:18:23.120 I never cared, for the record, at all.

00:18:25.800 So that's my position. 0.89

00:18:26.720 You see, I cared because we had signed a treaty about the nuclear weapons being given up by Ukraine, as had your country. 0.81

00:18:33.640 and that as it was overwhelmingly in our interests, 0.78

00:18:37.740 expect you to agree with this,

00:18:39.220 for Ukraine not to be a nuclear power.

00:18:41.880 We didn't want small...

00:18:43.660 You keep referring to an event from 35 years ago

00:18:46.540 that is one small part of a long saga.

00:18:49.540 No, no, no, this is fundamental

00:18:51.000 because Russia would not have invaded Ukraine

00:18:54.460 if Ukraine had kept its nuclear weapons. 0.76

00:18:57.060 Well, Ukraine, being the most corrupt country in Europe, 0.54

00:18:58.940 might have already sold those nuclear weapons 0.84

00:19:00.400 to bad actors around the world,

00:19:01.620 which is one of the reasons that the United States forced them to get rid of them.

00:19:04.500 That's absolutely true.

00:19:05.080 I was there for this.

00:19:05.880 I'm not denying this. 0.87

00:19:07.440 I'm not denying that Ukraine has had enormous corruption and still does. 0.71

00:19:10.420 I'm saying that's why the rest of the world felt Ukraine could not be trusted,

00:19:13.340 not because we didn't want them to have sovereignty, but because...

00:19:15.860 We wanted to protect their sovereignty and for them not to have nuclear weapons

00:19:18.460 because we didn't want smaller states to have nuclear weapons.

00:19:21.580 We could live with Russia and China and India and Pakistan and Israel and the UK and France having nuclear weapons,

00:19:27.380 but we didn't want...

00:19:28.220 But I feel like we're at a cul-de-sac.

00:19:30.240 Right now, we are—

00:19:31.180 But this is fundamental, because you have to go back to why is it in our interest for Ukraine's territorial integrity to be maintained?

00:19:39.320 First of all, because the nation-state is the fundamental of global order.

00:19:44.820 Without the nation-state, there is no global order.

00:19:46.960 I'm not an internationalist.

00:19:48.960 And then there is the issue of, is America's word worth anything?

00:19:54.580 Do you have an interest?

00:19:55.820 if you persuade a state to give up nuclear weapons

00:19:58.140 and say that you believe its serotonin integrity should be maintained

00:20:01.980 and you are signatory to that treaty, does that matter?

00:20:04.680 Or do you just sign these things?

00:20:05.880 We have never signed a treaty obligating the...

00:20:08.880 I know you've said that before.

00:20:10.040 Well, we haven't.

00:20:10.980 I'm well aware of that.

00:20:11.700 And you keep pretending that we have.

00:20:12.420 No, I haven't.

00:20:13.480 No, you're not listening.

00:20:14.500 No obligation to be participants.

00:20:15.960 You seem to be devoid of nuance that the two questions are not the same.

00:20:20.460 Just because you've signed a treaty does not automatically commit you to fighting a war.

00:20:23.960 doesn't suggest the course of action that you're suggesting.

00:20:27.820 So the treaty is immaterial to this.

00:20:29.220 The treaty is pretty important.

00:20:30.200 Here's what I'm saying.

00:20:31.360 Let me ask you this question.

00:20:32.180 It gives you an interest in the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

00:20:33.800 Let me ask you this question.

00:20:34.780 There's a hierarchy of responsibility that a nation and an individual faces.

00:20:39.220 We've got all kinds of obligations, but we have to put them in order of importance.

00:20:43.240 And you seem to be suggesting that a nation's obligation

00:20:47.020 is to something called the international order.

00:20:50.340 No.

00:20:50.780 Over and above the interests of its own population.

00:20:53.120 No, I don't agree. No, that's not what I've said.

00:20:55.380 The national interest is my biggest concern.

00:20:58.740 Okay.

00:20:59.160 And the national interest is served overwhelmingly by the integrity of nation states.

00:21:03.660 Do you have majority support for war with Russia here in the UK?

00:21:06.460 Majority support for what?

00:21:07.660 A war with Russia.

00:21:08.740 Nobody wants to go to war with Russia.

00:21:10.380 Okay.

00:21:10.820 But that's why there is increasing support in this country for building up our military

00:21:16.360 so that we are able to defend ourselves.

00:21:18.240 How would you do that?

00:21:19.280 Well, you just spend more money on it.

00:21:20.600 You recruit more soldiers.

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00:21:40.020 We always say that.

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00:22:44.300 Slash Tucker.

00:22:45.680 So if you go from a fighting force of under 19,000, which is bigger than Estonia's, which is 5,000,

00:22:51.940 but still somewhat less than the three and a half million in the Russian army,

00:22:56.700 how much would that cost, and where would the money come from?

00:22:59.280 Well, there's plenty of money.

00:23:01.880 We're just spending it all on welfare at the moment.

00:23:04.560 We're about to spend 400 billion pounds a year on welfare.

00:23:07.480 On welfare. Specifically, what do you mean by welfare?

00:23:09.520 Well, welfare benefits people who are out of work.

00:23:11.620 Some of that's on pensions.

00:23:13.160 But our welfare benefit system has been ballooning.

00:23:16.720 If we could take even a part of that...

00:23:18.460 Then you could spend that on bombs.

00:23:19.640 So what are you doing?

00:23:20.480 That's a fair point.

00:23:21.800 Right. 1.00

00:23:22.040 We've got a crazy welfare system.

00:23:23.740 I mean, this country is not being well run.

00:23:27.020 We are spending much more money than we have.

00:23:29.480 And our defense spending is pitifully low.

00:23:32.800 It's even lower than it seems because we're at 2.7% of GDP.

00:23:36.920 Is there a public demand for more defense spending?

00:23:39.760 The public is getting increasingly worried.

00:23:41.480 The world is getting...

00:23:42.080 Do you think that the average Briton, if given the choice between food and housing assistance or unemployment benefits, would instead choose to forego those in favor of more bombs?

00:23:51.360 I think the country at large is deeply fed up with people on welfare who have made it a lifestyle choice.

00:23:56.960 I bet that's true.

00:23:57.520 But do you think if you put it up to a vote, a national referendum...

00:24:00.480 I think you would find that people want defense.

00:24:03.340 And that they'd be willing to reduce social spending.

00:24:06.400 I think they want to reduce social spending anyway.

00:24:08.640 Okay.

00:24:08.920 I think they might rather have the social spending in tax cuts, but people are deeply fed up.

00:24:13.540 Do you know, in this country, there are 6 million wonderful people who we should really admire,

00:24:18.480 who work, even though they would be better off on benefits.

00:24:21.940 Oh, I'm aware. I would never defend your disease tax code at all.

00:24:25.580 This is just crazy.

00:24:26.960 No, I'm in full agreement with you.

00:24:28.240 The question is, should you take that dividend, that savings,

00:24:32.980 and spend it on a pointless war that you can't possibly win that will only get your citizens killed?

00:24:37.560 We won't fight a war if we are defended.

00:24:40.240 So to what extent would you have to increase the size of your military to intimidate Russia, which possesses nuclear and hypersonic weapons?

00:24:47.740 Putin, it's not a question of intimidating.

00:24:49.720 We're not trying to intimidate Russia because we wouldn't succeed in intimidating Russia.

00:24:53.100 Now I'm totally confused.

00:24:54.220 It's a question of being taken seriously.

00:24:56.500 What's the difference?

00:24:57.080 Putin did not take Ukraine seriously.

00:24:59.420 He thought he could invade it and take it over very quickly.

00:25:01.960 What's the difference between intimidating someone and being taken seriously?

00:25:05.160 I thought they're identical concepts, aren't they?

00:25:06.940 No, I don't think they are.

00:25:08.180 Intimidation...

00:25:08.540 He'll just be impressed by your resolve?

00:25:10.560 Intimidation is throwing...

00:25:12.000 It is suggesting that you are intending to be aggressive.

00:25:14.700 It's suggesting there's a penalty for messing with you.

00:25:17.100 That's right.

00:25:17.980 No, I don't think that is right.

00:25:19.220 I think intimidating is showing that you want to be aggressive,

00:25:22.740 whereas showing resolve...

00:25:25.080 Scaring someone off.

00:25:26.460 I'm armed, back off.

00:25:27.940 I'm armed, so it's not in your interest to do anything.

00:25:30.820 Okay, so we're saying the same thing.

00:25:32.140 We're saying broadly the same, but I don't think it is intimidating.

00:25:34.440 Using different forms of English.

00:25:35.640 Because we're not going to intimidate.

00:25:36.680 nor do we want to but you're going to you want to tell russia if you mess with the uk it's just

00:25:43.100 not worth it we're scary enough that like go pick on someone else that's well ideally don't pick on

00:25:48.300 anybody but how much do you think you would from the condition of the british military right now

00:25:55.340 like how much would you have to spend how many people would have to join the british military

00:25:59.960 in order to have that effect on russia well it's a question of building up our overall defense

00:26:05.020 expenditure. The interim target is 3.5% of GDP. Whether that's enough is highly debatable. But

00:26:10.760 it's much more about equipment than it is about numbers. Okay, so you wouldn't have to have a

00:26:16.760 larger fighting force then? I'd be very surprised if you needed it. But it's not going to be a war

00:26:21.520 on British soil. Russia is not going to invade Britain. It's got a long way to go to get here.

00:26:29.080 It's a question about working... It could take out your capital city instantly. 0.86

00:26:32.460 It could, but then we could take out Moscow.

00:26:35.200 I mean, if you want to get to nuclear war,

00:26:37.220 but the reason we don't get to nuclear war is that both sides are armed.

00:26:41.140 So you're totally convinced that Russia would never use nuclear weapons

00:26:43.740 under any circumstances, offensively?

00:26:45.920 One could never go that far.

00:26:47.900 The whole point of... 0.65

00:26:49.060 Well, both Russia and the United States,

00:26:51.180 President Trump are both openly threatening to use offensive nuclear weapons.

00:26:56.220 To use tactical nuclear weapons at the moment.

00:26:58.960 Low-yield nuclear weapons, they're the same thing.

00:27:01.220 And the reason the Cold War strategy worked is because deterrents work.

00:27:08.300 But to make deterrents work, you have to be strong.

00:27:11.280 And there is no deterrent, really, if you go from step one to nuclear weapons in one fell swoop. 0.60

00:27:19.480 If your only real defense, if Russia does something in Poland or Estonia, is to go to nuclear war,

00:27:25.460 nobody's going to take you seriously on that.

00:27:27.800 No one's going to go from...

00:27:28.840 No one's going to take you seriously if you use a nuclear weapon?

00:27:31.160 I think people will take you very seriously.

00:27:32.400 No, no, no.

00:27:32.820 They're not going to take you seriously that you would use a nuclear weapon

00:27:35.460 because it wouldn't be proportionate.

00:27:37.440 So tell me how this plays out.

00:27:38.940 You've got to have the interim levels of defense as well.

00:27:43.220 You can't just go from, we're all pacifists, 0.63

00:27:46.300 but if you really do something nasty, we'll nuke you.

00:27:48.800 Because nobody will believe that you would use the nuclear bomb in those circumstances. 0.86

00:27:52.680 Because the level of aggression would not be high enough.

00:27:57.140 Would it be worth using a nuclear weapon against Russia?

00:28:01.020 to preserve the world order and to deter territorial aggression against sovereign states like Ukraine? 0.83

00:28:07.000 I think ultimately, nuclear weapons serve a very useful purpose as being the final threat. 0.77

00:28:14.560 Useful in what way?

00:28:15.800 To what end? 0.71

00:28:17.240 The whole Cold War strategy worked.

00:28:20.840 Russia and America did not go to war because both sides realized that the other could wipe them out.

00:28:26.060 Right. They talked about using nuclear weapons, but is using nuclear, the actual use of nuclear weapons, is that ever justified?

00:28:32.600 I think it was justified in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, yes. 0.97

00:28:35.360 I think it was justified in bringing the Second World War to an end. 0.97

00:28:37.760 Yes, unquestionably. 0.99

00:28:39.340 Unquestionably justified.

00:28:40.060 Unquestionably, yes. I thought the number of lives...

00:28:43.400 So it's justified to kill people who did nothing wrong?

00:28:47.240 Well, we're not talking about people who did nothing wrong.

00:28:49.280 Well, the populations of crowded cities are not responsible for the war of women and children getting incinerated.

00:28:56.820 We were in a state of total war.

00:28:59.000 Okay, well, we were not in a state of total war, actually.

00:29:02.720 There were no Japanese troops on American soil.

00:29:04.640 We were not in a state of total war.

00:29:05.840 That's not even close to a state of total war. 0.59

00:29:07.640 They had attacked American soil.

00:29:10.140 Four years before, and then they were losing.

00:29:11.800 But we were not in a state of total war.

00:29:12.820 But I'm asking you a theological question, which is, is it ever allowed, under the precepts of, say, Christianity,

00:29:19.280 to kill people who did nothing wrong, to kill women and children.

00:29:22.480 Does it meet Aquinas' test of a just war? 0.74

00:29:25.480 It does not.

00:29:26.120 I think it does.

00:29:26.980 How?

00:29:27.760 Well, are you a legitimate authority?

00:29:30.080 Yes, you are.

00:29:31.240 Is it an important cause?

00:29:32.860 Yes, because you have been attacked and you're defending yourself.

00:29:35.520 And is it proportionate?

00:29:36.480 Yes, because it actually shortens the duration of the war.

00:29:39.700 That's not the definition of proportionate.

00:29:41.580 Proportionate means that you're responding in a way that is not grandly larger than the initial attack.

00:29:48.600 The overall... 0.99

00:29:50.000 In other words, if you punch me in the face, I can't shoot you. 1.00

00:29:54.220 Yes, but this is different means of killing people. 1.00

00:29:58.680 But I'm zeroing it on... 0.97

00:29:59.700 You're not talking about a punch in the face.

00:30:00.680 You're talking about, is it legitimate that I... 1.00

00:30:02.640 I'm talking about killing people's kids. 0.79

00:30:03.840 It has nothing to do with it. 0.99

00:30:05.160 That's okay, because why?

00:30:06.340 We were at war with the whole country.

00:30:08.140 We were at war with the kids?

00:30:09.380 And it ended the war.

00:30:10.380 Yes, Japan was at war with the United States and the United Kingdom. 0.90

00:30:13.740 So if another nation says they're at war with us, it's okay to kill our kids?

00:30:18.060 Well, we don't want to be at war with other nations.

00:30:21.180 No, I'm asking an abstract question. 0.98

00:30:22.740 But you're asking a ridiculous question. 0.98

00:30:23.520 You're clearly fluent. 0.97

00:30:24.200 It's not a ridiculous question. 0.99

00:30:25.220 It's a ridiculous question. 0.97

00:30:26.260 Japan had attacked the United States. 0.98

00:30:29.000 I don't think its kids attacked the United States.

00:30:30.620 Had started a war. 0.99

00:30:31.500 Why not kill the people who started the war? 0.99

00:30:33.100 And, well, we did in the end. 1.00

00:30:38.040 The Japanese prime minister tried to commit suicide, 0.59

00:30:40.260 and we spent ages getting him back to good health. 0.73

00:30:42.200 We also killed tens of thousands of children in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 0.57

00:30:46.120 And you're saying that's okay. 1.00

00:30:47.380 Well, I think it was justified. 1.00

00:30:48.380 I think the use of nuclear weapons at the end of the Second World War was justified. 1.00

00:30:51.920 So what you're saying as a Christian is, yes, it is okay to kill children who did nothing wrong. 1.00

00:30:57.020 It was a proportionate response, yes. 0.80

00:30:58.440 Do you feel that that is a Christian position?

00:31:00.380 Yes. 0.94

00:31:01.420 I think it meets Aquinas' conditions of a just war.

00:31:05.000 Really?

00:31:05.700 Yes.

00:31:05.860 Has any pope since Aquinas confirmed that?

00:31:12.920 Have there been any papal statements saying, yes, under certain circumstances, it's okay to kill other people's kids?

00:31:18.560 The church has preached for centuries that there are conditions of a just war.

00:31:24.260 I don't think there has been any statements since 1945. 0.98

00:31:27.480 And I'm not Catholic, so I'm not an expert, but you are, so you tell me.

00:31:31.380 As a Catholic, you think that the church endorses killing people's kids?

00:31:35.500 Since 1945, there's only been one explicitly ex-cathedra statement by the Holy See, by the Holy Father.

00:31:42.920 I guess the question is, if you are willing to kill non-combatants who committed no crime,

00:31:51.720 if you're willing to murder the innocent, then in what sense are you better than the people you were fighting?

00:31:58.460 That once a war is engaged, the whole point of what I'm talking about, to go back to the opening part of your question,

00:32:05.500 I will come back to it, because it's to avoid war, and you avoid war by being strong.

00:32:11.240 Once you're in war, you are justified in winning the war.

00:32:15.580 So you can behave like an animal once the war starts.

00:32:17.500 And if the risk to you is sufficient, you can use nuclear weapons. 0.91

00:32:22.220 I think that is morally justifiable. 0.96

00:32:24.700 I mean, even leaving aside the details of America's use of those two bombs,

00:32:29.440 there was no risk to the United States.

00:32:31.020 Japan was in no condition to invade the United States.

00:32:33.180 It had never put troops on our shores.

00:32:35.680 So there was no risk to the United States.

00:32:36.400 It attacked you, but it wasn't likely to put troops on our shores.

00:32:38.440 It attacked a territory, right?

00:32:40.320 Well, it's attached to a state.

00:32:42.300 It was not a state.

00:32:43.340 It wasn't a state then.

00:32:44.260 Of course, you're quite right.

00:32:45.120 In December 14th.

00:32:45.760 But the point is, we were not at risk from an invasion by Japan in any sense. 0.90

00:32:51.220 It was a defeated nation. 0.90

00:32:52.180 We already firebombed Tokyo multiple times.

00:32:56.320 You see, that's where, do you think the firebombing of Tokyo was justified?

00:33:00.500 I don't think killing the innocent is ever justified under any circumstances.

00:33:04.880 And I think the basis of Western civilization is justice for the individual.

00:33:11.280 I believe that blood guilt and group punishment are antithetical to our entire civilization.

00:33:15.180 They're the things we fight against.

00:33:16.500 That's why the Gulag was wrong. 0.69

00:33:18.420 That's why what's happening in Gaza is wrong.

00:33:20.400 It's always wrong to kill people who did nothing wrong.

00:33:23.080 And if we don't think that, then on what basis are we administering our own justice systems that take such exquisite care to punish only the guilty?

00:33:30.740 I don't even understand what you're saying.

00:33:33.060 I think it's very difficult to have fought the Second World War without innocent people being killed.

00:33:37.820 I don't know. No one tried.

00:33:39.340 But maybe, I never understood why fight the Second World War in the first place.

00:33:43.760 Well, that's a very fundamental question.

00:33:46.580 How about the First World War?

00:33:48.120 Well, let's stick to the Second World War. 0.90

00:33:49.540 No, let's start with the first.

00:33:50.480 Well, we were on the second. 0.89

00:33:52.380 The Second World War, Hitler would have taken as much as he could have done. 0.89

00:33:56.920 Okay. 0.92

00:33:57.220 As he was showing.

00:33:58.460 And did you really want him to...

00:34:00.140 Well, Hitler said that 15% of Poland was once Germany, and it was given to Poland at the Treaty of Versailles.

00:34:08.300 That was German territory with Germans. 0.92

00:34:09.660 That was his case. 1.00

00:34:10.340 And by the way, that was true. 0.56

00:34:11.680 Except, except, except the Polish borders had been cut up by Russia and Russia and Austria.

00:34:17.080 I'm just saying the idea that Hitler just randomly rolled into Poland is a lie, and everyone believes it because they know nothing about the actual facts.

00:34:24.140 but the truth is

00:34:25.540 Germany had big pieces of it

00:34:27.620 carved off

00:34:28.160 including part of Prussia

00:34:29.000 and it was given to

00:34:29.900 this other country

00:34:30.660 it infuriated the Germans

00:34:31.500 maybe it shouldn't have 0.99

00:34:32.160 but it did

00:34:32.680 and that was a justification for it

00:34:34.040 the UK had nothing to do with it

00:34:36.520 at all

00:34:37.220 and they destroyed their empire

00:34:40.320 and their country

00:34:41.140 fighting this war

00:34:41.880 that they still pretend

00:34:42.540 was a good idea

00:34:43.200 but it wasn't

00:34:43.800 it was fundamental

00:34:44.660 it was the classic

00:34:46.800 good versus evil

00:34:48.020 has the UK benefited from it?

00:34:50.520 we did the right thing

00:34:51.520 is it a better country

00:34:52.320 than it was? 0.90

00:34:53.000 To have defeated Hitler, yes. 0.91

00:34:54.880 So the UK is a better country now. 0.88

00:34:56.720 It's a healthier country now. 1.00

00:34:57.960 Otherwise, we'll be speaking German. 1.00

00:35:00.120 Who cares? 0.78

00:35:01.340 There are a lot of people in Britain who can't speak English.

00:35:03.760 So it would be nice to have at least a European language spoken in your country.

00:35:07.480 No, I see no advantage of speaking German over any other language. 0.93

00:35:11.400 We won't speak English. 0.96

00:35:12.380 Thank you so much. 1.00

00:35:12.880 But the point is, a war should benefit. 1.00

00:35:16.080 If a war is fought with the children of your citizens, which it is, 0.94

00:35:20.300 then that war should benefit those citizens. 0.95

00:35:23.180 And it did benefit this country.

00:35:24.260 In what ways?

00:35:24.980 It benefited this country.

00:35:26.180 Can you tell me how?

00:35:26.800 But as I said to you, 0.85

00:35:27.940 otherwise Germany would eventually have invaded us. 0.92

00:35:30.620 So Germany...

00:35:32.080 But we've had 80 years to assess. 0.63

00:35:33.380 Tell me the benefits.

00:35:34.600 Now sitting 80 years later as the grandson of,

00:35:36.760 I'm certain, people who fought in that war, I am.

00:35:39.200 Well, my grandfather was too old.

00:35:41.440 He was in the First World War and the Second World War.

00:35:43.080 My father was too young.

00:35:44.340 So we sort of missed the generation.

00:35:46.380 I'm saying now that we've had,

00:35:47.920 and as a lover of history,

00:35:50.300 Why don't you tell me the ways in which Britain benefited from,

00:35:54.800 and I'm going to use air quotes here, winning the Second World War?

00:35:58.440 Because from my perspective, it looks like the empire ended, 0.76

00:36:01.080 India was lost two years later, the United States took over the world

00:36:03.700 and has had troops here ever since. 0.97

00:36:05.660 You lost your sovereignty and your self-respect,

00:36:08.460 and this beautiful country has been destroyed.

00:36:10.840 We certainly didn't lose our self-respect over winning the war.

00:36:13.780 In terms of self-respect, that's a rather ethereal benefit.

00:36:17.960 our self-respect was hugely maintained by defeating the greatest evil the world has known. 1.00

00:36:22.240 Then why would you allow foreign troops on your soil ever since? 0.98

00:36:25.320 Because we wanted to stop the Russians. 0.94

00:36:29.220 Okay, but I mean, it's kind of a prerequisite of sovereignty and self-respect 0.99

00:36:32.540 not to have foreign soldiers on your soil for 80 years.

00:36:35.740 They're allies, we're in NATO together. 0.98

00:36:37.920 You can call them whatever you want, but they're still foreigners on your soil.

00:36:40.540 Yeah, they're very welcome here.

00:36:42.060 I know, that's the point I'm making.

00:36:43.760 But they're part of defending our shared interest, which we have.

00:36:48.340 And our shared interest is the nation state and maintaining its integrity and not having people thinking because there was a treaty some hundreds of years ago and Poland once had a bit of it that was Germany, we can now say we're going to take it.

00:37:00.820 I'm merely saying...

00:37:01.820 We cannot allow...

00:37:03.240 You use the phrase nation state, but it has no meaning if the nation state has no sovereignty.

00:37:08.500 This nation state has sovereignty.

00:37:09.700 How can it have sovereignty when it has foreign troops on its own?

00:37:12.040 We were able to pull out of the European Union.

00:37:15.280 That showed us an exercise in sovereignty.

00:37:18.640 You, well, that's all I'm saying.

00:37:20.760 I was on your side there and I feel so sad about what happened.

00:37:23.420 But my point is, if you don't have sovereignty, if you can't make decisions that are rooted in the core interests of your own population, then how are you a nation state?

00:37:32.360 But we do make interests that are in the core interests of our population.

00:37:35.080 Well, you're just telling me that you may need to prepare for a war on behalf of the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

00:37:42.380 And why is that in our interest?

00:37:43.680 Because if the territorial integrity of nation states is protected, there's much less need for us to go to war.

00:37:50.600 But what about your own territorial integrity?

00:37:52.760 Aren't you getting invaded by people in boats all the time?

00:37:55.400 Why don't you use the military to protect your own borders?

00:37:57.720 Oh, look, I'm not going to disagree with you on that.

00:38:00.100 We should definitely be much more—

00:38:02.080 But you're not calling for conscription or defense buildup or 3% of GDP to go to a military response to an invasion of your own country.

00:38:08.620 I think you can do it without a military response.

00:38:10.880 Why? 1.00

00:38:11.260 I think the Rwanda scheme would have worked. 1.00

00:38:14.620 No, but why not? 0.99

00:38:15.480 If you're so willing to commit military force and lives of Britain to defending Ukraine, why not commit them to defending your own country? 0.71

00:38:23.020 Because the small boats is a civil matter rather than a military matter. 0.66

00:38:28.240 Really?

00:38:29.000 What percentage of your population is foreign-born?

00:38:32.300 19%.

00:38:32.780 19%.

00:38:33.700 What was the percentage 20 years ago?

00:38:35.660 It was about 8%.

00:38:36.680 Okay.

00:38:37.280 What was the percentage 40 years ago?

00:38:39.000 It was 2%.

00:38:39.880 So like...

00:38:41.260 Look, I think our immigration policies have been catastrophic.

00:38:44.840 I think we've got it hopelessly wrong. 1.00

00:38:46.720 But it's not immigration, it's an invasion. 0.99

00:38:48.880 And so why not use the military?

00:38:50.680 Because actually the small boats is not the biggest part of it.

00:38:54.980 The biggest part of it, which is now coming down, thankfully, 0.93

00:38:57.840 but needs to be reduced much further, is legal immigration.

00:39:00.860 But you've also got the problem of visa overstaying, which is a massive problem.

00:39:06.000 And we don't even know the details of it.

00:39:08.780 So you're already admitting that you're not a nation state.

00:39:11.160 That's not true.

00:39:11.700 Because you can't control who comes in and out of your own country.

00:39:14.400 No, no.

00:39:14.860 What I'm saying is that there are failures in the administration.

00:39:18.120 Every country has...

00:39:19.360 How do we define nation state?

00:39:20.760 Well, let's deal with the first point first.

00:39:23.400 Every nation has crime that takes place in it.

00:39:26.160 This is crime that is taking place in this country. 1.00

00:39:28.340 This is civilian crime.

00:39:29.460 It's not military crime.

00:39:31.060 There are things you can do. 0.74

00:39:32.040 As Donald Trump has shown, you can get a grip on the new flow of illegal migrants. 0.52

00:39:38.540 It turns out even in America, it would be very difficult to remove the illegal migrants who are already there.

00:39:43.820 Well, we're not even trying. 1.00

00:39:44.980 Well, there you go.

00:39:45.700 Just for the record.

00:39:46.420 Okay, well, I'm glad you said that because it's not for me to make any disappointing comments.

00:39:51.320 The UK is not alone in lacking self-respect or the willingness to protect itself.

00:39:54.960 It doesn't stop you being a nation state.

00:39:57.040 But we have a serious political problem of immigration, which we need to deal with, 0.99

00:40:01.120 and particularly of illegal immigration, and we need to be deporting. 0.96

00:40:03.560 I'm just not sure what a nation state is, because the countries that you have described,

00:40:07.380 Ukraine specifically, which has been completely controlled by NATO and the United States

00:40:11.420 and the U.S. intel agencies since at least 2014, and we know that, it's on tape.

00:40:17.240 How is that a nation state? That's a proxy state.

00:40:19.700 That's a country controlled by a larger power.

00:40:21.700 Very interestingly, I think you make a very important point about Ukraine.

00:40:26.680 And Ukraine was, to a significant extent in 2022, still Russian-speaking.

00:40:34.340 Putin has created a strong feeling of Ukrainianism by his attack.

00:40:40.000 I'm sure, yeah.

00:40:40.880 And has strengthened Ukraine as a nation state.

00:40:43.360 It's a very interesting side effect.

00:40:44.940 That may be right, but I'm merely saying the pretense that Ukraine is this sovereign country,

00:40:51.560 when it's controlled by larger powers, is grating.

00:40:54.900 Because really, the choice is between a Ukraine controlled by the East, Russia, or the West, the United States.

00:41:01.780 That's the choice.

00:41:02.720 No one's actually suggesting Ukraine should be able to make independent decisions.

00:41:05.220 They tried to do that in 2014, and we overthrew the government.

00:41:07.780 I don't think that's right.

00:41:09.300 I think that the American interest is in having an independent Ukraine that makes its own decisions.

00:41:14.700 Really, what if an independent Ukraine wanted to link up with Russia?

00:41:17.500 Because they have a lot more in common with Russia than they do with most of Europe.

00:41:19.800 I think under current circumstances, that is extremely unlikely. 0.54

00:41:23.040 Well, it is now.

00:41:24.400 You're right.

00:41:25.500 But in 2014, it was moving in that direction,

00:41:28.500 and the U.S. government just kind of overthrew the government.

00:41:31.000 Well, you then got the invasion of Crimea at about that time,

00:41:34.780 and so you got active attack from Russia, which was deeply problematic.

00:41:39.140 But I think we're beginning to lose the wood for the trees

00:41:46.580 because the world is built up of nation states,

00:41:52.200 And nation states are the legitimate building blocks.

00:41:56.420 They sometimes are badly governed.

00:41:58.520 They are sometimes dictatorially governed.

00:42:00.880 But nonetheless, they have an inherent legitimacy.

00:42:04.120 If you don't believe in the nation state, what do you replace it with?

00:42:07.580 I do believe in the nation state.

00:42:09.060 That's why I don't believe in NATO.

00:42:10.640 So we agree, we agree.

00:42:12.240 So how is NATO consistent with your concept of the nation state?

00:42:15.240 Here you have a supra-national organization that's over these countries.

00:42:19.880 NATO is by far and away the best supranational organization

00:42:23.440 because it is a voluntary grouping with no ability to compel.

00:42:31.860 So the nation-state retains its nation-state capability within NATO.

00:42:36.580 It's not like the European Union or the International Criminal Court,

00:42:40.320 any of these things, which seek to override your sovereignty by a higher sovereignty.

00:42:45.780 NATO requires the cooperation of states within a structure,

00:42:49.120 but they are always the individual nation states,

00:42:52.920 except when you're at war,

00:42:54.620 when you agree that your troops may be commanded by an ally.

00:42:58.440 But we've agreed to the command of troops by allies in wartime

00:43:02.680 long before we had NATO.

00:43:06.420 That's a norm of international affairs for hundreds of years.

00:43:09.240 Yeah, I mean, you still give up your own sovereignty

00:43:11.640 because you wind up in a place where you're like,

00:43:13.900 you know, really, we have to defend.

00:43:16.480 No, you don't, because as we were discussing earlier,

00:43:18.980 Ukraine or Estonia or...

00:43:21.360 Ukraine is not a member of NATO, as you know.

00:43:23.200 No, no, but I'm saying I'm aware of that.

00:43:25.700 I know you are.

00:43:27.920 You don't get obliged to.

00:43:31.320 You get asked to.

00:43:33.260 Article 5 is not...

00:43:35.080 No, I understand that.

00:43:36.100 And that's important.

00:43:37.500 Let's just reinsert common sense here.

00:43:39.980 I just want to tie a bow on our previous conversation,

00:43:42.880 which is how specifically did the UK benefit

00:43:45.540 from its heroic victory in the second world?

00:43:48.540 Like, what are the material or spiritual benefits?

00:43:51.000 Like, how do you see this country as better than it was in 1945?

00:43:55.620 Well, I think if you think of it in terms of peace, there has now been peace in Europe between the major nations since 1945.

00:44:07.400 And in the history of the UK, our prosperity has always depended upon peace.

00:44:12.640 So is this a richer country than it was in 1945?

00:44:14.960 Much richer. Materially, much richer.

00:44:17.780 Really?

00:44:18.540 Oh, yeah, GDP growth from 1945.

00:44:22.120 What was the unemployment rate in 1945?

00:44:25.460 Everyone was in the army.

00:44:26.040 Well, of course, you're in a war, right? 1.00

00:44:27.860 It's an unfair question, I agree with that.

00:44:29.840 But we've got much more welfare.

00:44:31.780 I'm not saying we've got no problems,

00:44:33.580 but has our GDP grown in real terms?

00:44:36.060 GDP is not a measurement of national strength or prosperity at all.

00:44:40.040 It is a prosperity.

00:44:41.080 Of course not.

00:44:42.200 It's a measurement of money.

00:44:43.980 How much money is in the system, but it doesn't account for where it goes.

00:44:46.520 Okay, we are better fed, we are better housed, we have conveniences that weren't even thought of in 1945.

00:44:53.420 Happier country?

00:44:54.900 Happiness is a different concept.

00:44:57.140 Suicide rate, higher or lower?

00:44:58.880 Oh, it's much higher.

00:45:00.520 Well, that actually depends.

00:45:02.540 The thing about suicide is that it depends on the reporting of the rate.

00:45:07.960 In 1945, there's much more stigma around suicide.

00:45:10.680 Maybe.

00:45:11.260 And therefore, people were much more likely to record an accident. 0.97

00:45:14.420 It was a Christian country. 0.98

00:45:15.420 Now it's mostly atheist country. 1.00

00:45:17.440 Yes, I think that's a great tragedy. 1.00

00:45:19.080 Yeah.

00:45:20.060 But the point is...

00:45:21.100 I mean, you're an Episcopalian, aren't you?

00:45:22.920 But you don't believe in half things the Episcopalian church now says.

00:45:27.980 I don't believe in witchcraft.

00:45:29.560 No, nor do I.

00:45:30.320 No.

00:45:30.600 I'm out on that question.

00:45:31.280 You ought to come over to Rome.

00:45:33.600 Well, I certainly believe in Rome's position on murdering innocents.

00:45:37.640 I'm totally opposed. 1.00

00:45:38.420 So I admire that. 0.99

00:45:40.360 Whether it's in the womb or in Hiroshima.

00:45:42.480 They're against it and so am I.

00:45:43.840 I think the killing of the unborn child is the greatest tragedy of the West.

00:45:48.660 But you, bottom line, think, I just want to get this on tape,

00:45:51.060 you think the UK is a stronger, better country now than it was...

00:45:56.120 In 1945, yes, I do.

00:45:58.080 I think we have all sorts of problems.

00:45:59.880 I think we have bad governments.

00:46:02.640 I think immigration has been terribly badly handled.

00:46:06.220 I think we have too much state control.

00:46:08.500 But, of course, in 1945, we had masses of state control.

00:46:12.160 And I think there are huge ways in which we can improve the country.

00:46:16.640 But are we a better country in 1945? 0.75

00:46:18.320 Are we a better country for the fact that we defeated Nazism? 0.93

00:46:21.520 Yes, I think Hitler was one of the great evils the world ever saw. 0.90

00:46:25.060 And it was a good thing to ensure that that was destroyed because it would have destroyed us otherwise. 0.87

00:46:30.100 Yeah, I'm against the Nazis, against Hitler.

00:46:31.960 I don't think it was a good thing for you at all.

00:46:34.480 But, you know, I don't live here, so I'll leave it to you.

00:46:36.740 Also, I don't think you mentioned, touched on India.

00:46:39.900 I think it was very unlikely that we would have kept India much longer anyway.

00:46:45.480 Because the First World War— 0.73

00:46:46.440 India was going. 0.82

00:46:47.680 The First World War is a different question.

00:46:49.440 Okay, so without even getting into all of this, I'm just trying to get to the core question here, which is, is it worth it?

00:46:57.260 So Britain lost, I think, just in deaths in the Second World War, 450,000 maybe.

00:47:04.320 But let me, the point you've really challenged me on is the idea that being prepared deters war.

00:47:12.540 The experience of the UK in 1914 and in 1939 was that because we were thought to be soft, our enemy didn't take us seriously.

00:47:23.820 You joined both of those wars. You were not attacked in either war.

00:47:26.620 We joined both of those wars.

00:47:28.960 What are you even talking about?

00:47:30.180 The Kaiser knew that there was the guarantee to Belgium, and he thought the British wouldn't do anything about it.

00:47:35.800 He thought we weren't interested, we would not do anything.

00:47:38.260 So you went...

00:47:39.180 So we, unfortunately, our enemy in 1914 and in 1939, on both occasions, thought we were weak and a feat and would cave.

00:47:51.560 And therefore, felt it was free to...

00:47:55.020 So you're saying, in order to protect Belgium, it was worth destroying all...

00:48:00.160 of Europe and losing 1.5 million Britons?

00:48:03.140 You don't always listen, if I may say the same as to Tucker.

00:48:05.400 I do, I'm listening carefully.

00:48:06.120 What I said was that the enemy felt free to invade

00:48:08.920 because we were seen to be weak.

00:48:12.760 That's not the same as saying it was the right thing to do.

00:48:15.120 But you attacked them.

00:48:16.020 They did not attack you. 0.87

00:48:17.340 Well, we went to help the French. 0.94

00:48:19.520 You attacked them. 0.90

00:48:20.820 We had a treaty with Belgium, 0.99

00:48:22.120 but we went to help the French

00:48:23.120 who were falling back remarkably quickly in August 19th. 0.53

00:48:26.700 You attacked the Germans.

00:48:27.660 They did not attack you. 0.85

00:48:28.860 They attacked Belgium with whom we had a treaty on their way through to attack France.

00:48:33.140 But can't you take a big picture of you and answer the question, was it worth losing everything?

00:48:38.500 I'll happily come to that question, but I'm trying to make a point that you seem to refuse to allow me to make.

00:48:43.660 That had we, in 1914, been projecting strength, had the Kaiser thought there was a big British army and the British will take this seriously, he would not have gone through Belgium.

00:48:56.020 And if you had not gone through Belgium, we would not have gone to war.

00:48:59.480 And it is the projection of strength that avoids war.

00:49:04.420 And this is what we should be doing now.

00:49:06.340 We should learn from history that if your enemy thinks you are weak,

00:49:11.020 then you find you get into war by accident.

00:49:13.820 If you show that you are strong, then the invasion doesn't take place.

00:49:18.960 And if Hitler had thought we were strong, then Poland would not have been invaded.

00:49:23.200 Hitler did not want to go to war with the UK.

00:49:25.520 He thought we wouldn't do anything about Poland as we'd done nothing.

00:49:27.900 Hitler repeatedly said, I do not want to go to war with the UK.

00:49:30.260 Will you acknowledge that?

00:49:31.340 As we'd done nothing about Czechoslovakia, he thought we'd do nothing about Poland.

00:49:34.280 Will you acknowledge that Hitler said repeatedly in public and through diplomacy, I do not want war with the UK? 0.65

00:49:38.360 You seem to be putting more trust in Hitler than I would. 0.82

00:49:40.580 He said all sorts of things.

00:49:41.460 He said that.

00:49:42.080 He signed an agreement with Neville Chamberlain.

00:49:43.580 Did he say that?

00:49:44.440 I really don't care what he said because he signed a piece of paper with Neville Chamberlain saying he would not invade.

00:49:49.580 I'm very surprised you're verging on defending Hitler.

00:49:52.440 I think this is not really what you want to be doing.

00:49:54.780 Yeah, I guess I'm just a secret Nazi.

00:49:56.940 I'm actually not a secret Nazi. 0.86

00:49:58.600 I'm reassured.

00:49:59.820 And hardly a public Nazi.

00:50:01.480 I'm someone who tries to think clearly about cause and effect.

00:50:05.440 Yes.

00:50:06.500 And this is the point that I think you're missing.

00:50:08.540 The first world war is going unacknowledged by you.

00:50:11.020 So the high school you went to is called Eton.

00:50:12.800 No.

00:50:13.000 Eton lost 1,100, this is a high school, 1,100 students from, just from one school.

00:50:18.940 I think it was 1,200.

00:50:20.020 Was it 1,200?

00:50:20.480 Okay.

00:50:21.260 We effectively lost a full five-year period. 0.88

00:50:23.620 Well, you lost the entire nation and all of Christian Europe. 0.85

00:50:27.520 You ought to go and speak at Eton.

00:50:28.980 I don't think I would be welcome at Eton.

00:50:30.540 Oh, I'm sure.

00:50:31.380 I doubt it.

00:50:32.160 I think you would.

00:50:33.800 But here's my point.

00:50:35.180 And if you do, you should go to the College Chapel,

00:50:37.680 because it is the most moving thing as you go past this list of names

00:50:41.400 of all the people who were killed,

00:50:43.300 and it is equivalent to a full five-year cohort.

00:50:47.200 And you don't think that's a waste?

00:50:49.660 I haven't actually answered your question

00:50:52.440 on whether it was right to go to war in the First World War.

00:50:55.840 I think it's a very different question from the Second World War.

00:50:58.640 But when you see those boys' names...

00:51:00.520 It was terrible.

00:51:02.480 But can anyone look at their mothers and say,

00:51:05.960 your son died for a good cause protecting Belgium?

00:51:09.700 Which we'd created.

00:51:11.420 It's always worth reminding the Belgians that.

00:51:14.600 That seems like a bigger lesson to me.

00:51:17.720 I think the lesson is the war would not have happened if we had projected strength.

00:51:21.140 Who knows?

00:51:21.720 But we know that the war wasn't worth fighting in the first place.

00:51:24.000 And that seems like the overriding lesson.

00:51:25.760 I think the difficulty...

00:51:27.380 I can draw many lines in the sand.

00:51:28.880 It matters at what point I do that, right?

00:51:31.240 If you appear strong, both sides during Cold War the whole time appeared strong.

00:51:38.080 And therefore there was no hot war.

00:51:40.720 The lesson I would draw is the appearance of strength is the best guarantor of peace.

00:51:48.780 The Kaiser referred to the contemptible little army that we've sent over.

00:51:52.700 But why would you even draw the line there?

00:51:54.900 Because he thought it was meaningless.

00:51:56.620 But why do you care? 0.59

00:51:57.460 Why was the First World War necessary?

00:52:01.780 In traditional British political terms, it was to maintain a balance of power on the continent because we felt threatened otherwise. 0.62

00:52:09.720 And we felt threatened by Germany in our imperial possessions and by the build-up of the German navy. 0.52

00:52:16.200 I'm not clear that the First World War was the right war to fight. 0.88

00:52:23.100 I am clear the Second World War was. 0.74

00:52:25.580 Do you see a connection between the wars?

00:52:30.280 This is the question really of the Treaty of Versailles.

00:52:32.980 The really interesting thing on the Treaty of Versailles is we make the terrible mistake of letting the French lead the negotiations.

00:52:39.720 because if you go back to the Congress of Vienna, which was led by Castlereagh,

00:52:46.940 Castlereagh's peace treaty with France, Napoleon said,

00:52:52.740 these are the terms I would have given Britain had I defeated Britain. We were so generous

00:52:58.460 that Napoleon himself said these were as generous as terms as he would have given had he won.

00:53:04.280 And that led to 100 years of peace. So I don't think we make a catastrophic mistake in Versailles.

00:53:09.460 Yes, of course we did.

00:53:11.400 But there's a great difference between seeing why things happen and viewing that as a justification.

00:53:19.040 I think the critical difference is being willing to apologize for mistakes.

00:53:23.280 We would have avoided the Second World War if we had been strong and if we had rearmed earlier.

00:53:30.000 And that's my worry now, is that we aren't learning the lessons of how we got into those two world wars

00:53:35.060 because we are weak and we do not have the defense expenditure that we need.

00:53:38.900 I mean, not to get crazy with alternate history or whatever, but you've just described two wars that killed millions and millions and millions of people, tens of millions of people, and totally destroyed your country and depopulated it in some places.

00:53:51.340 And both of them were initiated in the defense of small, basically irrelevant countries that are not contiguous to Britain.

00:53:58.640 You had no cultural history with you, no connection to whatsoever.

00:54:02.480 And on the basis of some theory that you keep repeating 80 years later, you destroyed your entire country and got millions of people killed. 0.90

00:54:10.100 Maybe that's one lesson.

00:54:11.000 We really didn't destroy the entire country.

00:54:13.960 There was a very large cost. 0.64

00:54:16.640 But I think you need to go back to the Napoleonic Wars.

00:54:20.320 Were the Napoleonic Wars worth fighting?

00:54:22.540 Is it worth trying to stop a dictator having a commanding position in Europe?

00:54:27.600 And it has usually been seen to be in British interests to stop that happening.

00:54:31.820 Do you think that, as in business, the cost needs to be part of the calculation, the potential cost?

00:54:36.520 So you're a businessman, right?

00:54:37.620 So you don't just look at the potential upside.

00:54:40.220 And that's absolutely right.

00:54:41.440 And this is why I was going on about the Congress of Vienna, because the Congress of Vienna led to 100 years of European peace.

00:54:48.980 So we got the peace right after we'd got the war right.

00:54:53.180 In the First World War, whether or not we got the war right is an arguable point.

00:54:57.620 But we unequivocally got the peace wrong.

00:55:02.660 And that then didn't lead to, you see, we got the peace of the Second World War right

00:55:09.720 and have had 80 years of peace since, pretty much.

00:55:14.180 The wars that have taken place within Europe have been sideshows.

00:55:17.340 And that allows for prosperity.

00:55:19.400 So if you get stability, that is hugely beneficial for your country.

00:55:24.380 So you did a segment on GB News recently, which precipitated this conversation, actually,

00:55:29.540 in which you were speaking with a former labor advisor

00:55:32.800 whose name I can't remember,

00:55:34.960 but more on the other side of British politics from you. 0.92

00:55:38.660 And you're both in agreement that we need to confront Russia. 0.62

00:55:41.060 We can't. 0.99

00:55:41.540 It's the most important thing to restrain this monster poop. 0.99

00:55:44.100 I don't want to confront Russia. 0.97

00:55:45.060 I just want us to be prepared.

00:55:46.900 I don't want us to be aggressive.

00:55:48.620 Well, the UK is confronting Russia because it's funding...

00:55:50.680 Oh, we're helping Ukraine. 0.63

00:55:51.360 It's funding the...

00:55:52.000 No, it's fighting a war against Russia right now.

00:55:53.860 We're helping Ukraine defend its territorial integrity.

00:55:56.440 They're fighting a war in Russia.

00:55:58.660 Anyway, you can...

00:55:59.620 No, no, no, they're fighting a war. 0.51

00:56:00.760 You are fighting a war with Russia. 0.56

00:56:01.260 We are not fighting a war with Russia, but Ukraine is.

00:56:04.100 And we are supporting Ukraine, but we are not directly at war with Russia.

00:56:07.440 Your citizens haven't died yet in great numbers.

00:56:09.700 But I would argue that the United States and Britain are both fighting a war against Russia.

00:56:13.620 If we are, we should do it properly, because I don't think we are.

00:56:17.000 And in that conversation, he said, the first thing we're going to need to do,

00:56:21.220 not in Russia, but here in the UK, is round up people who disagree with the program

00:56:25.440 and put them in jail.

00:56:26.520 And I was finding a historical precedent for that, but I can't think that this is necessary, or good, or right.

00:56:34.120 Now, the British government did that in the Second World War immediately. 0.58

00:56:37.660 It did it in the Second World War.

00:56:38.740 I knew a wonderful man, amazing man.

00:56:41.820 And I'd gathered to his father's, who was rounded up in 1939 when water was declared, was put in an enemy alien's camp in Shropshire.

00:56:53.780 and he was German, Jewish,

00:56:57.380 and all Germans were rounded up.

00:56:59.360 He was a fighting age.

00:57:00.400 The day he left the camp,

00:57:02.020 he joined the British army

00:57:03.100 and he ended the war as a brigadier.

00:57:05.200 Amazing.

00:57:06.180 Yeah, he sounds like a very forgiving man.

00:57:07.880 He was a wonderful man.

00:57:09.200 He sounds it.

00:57:10.200 But I'm not talking about people

00:57:11.780 who are rounded up as potential foreign nationals.

00:57:13.800 We can't round up people for their expression of opinions

00:57:16.560 and people must be free to oppose.

00:57:19.020 But the British government has never apologized

00:57:20.680 for violating its own ancient principles

00:57:23.640 by rounding up not simply members of the opposition party,

00:57:26.900 but their families.

00:57:28.080 Yeah, yeah.

00:57:28.960 And I'm talking with the Mosleys,

00:57:29.980 but also everyone who worked with the Mosleys,

00:57:32.140 the whole leadership and their wives.

00:57:34.080 And no one's ever apologized for that.

00:57:35.680 And it does raise the question. 0.84

00:57:37.360 In America, you arrested the Japanese, didn't you?

00:57:40.340 Hundreds of thousands of them.

00:57:42.420 Some of them, in fact, I think the majority were American citizens.

00:57:46.140 And does America apologize for that?

00:57:48.220 Yes, but not enough, as far as I'm concerned.

00:57:50.760 You can't arrest your own citizens because of how they look.

00:57:53.100 Like, that's what we're fighting against.

00:57:56.100 Not going to disagree with you on that.

00:57:57.420 So if there was an attempt, and there has been an attempt already in Britain to penalize people for opposing a war with Russia,

00:58:04.440 George Galloway was accused of being a foreign agent or something.

00:58:08.840 He's from here, as you know.

00:58:10.140 I know George.

00:58:11.160 Yeah.

00:58:11.900 You think he's a foreign agent?

00:58:13.240 No, I don't think George is a foreign agent.

00:58:14.580 Of course not.

00:58:14.760 George is a very brilliant orator and an interesting political figure.

00:58:19.200 Yes.

00:58:20.160 One of the best orators in modern British politics.

00:58:22.560 His views are completely bonkers, but that's another matter.

00:58:26.640 We don't need to go into George's. 0.73

00:58:27.620 Yeah, but I mean, it's okay.

00:58:29.320 I'm sure he thinks that of you too.

00:58:30.540 I'm sure he does.

00:58:31.000 I'm sure he does.

00:58:32.080 And you're being very gracious about him as a person.

00:58:34.380 And I, by the way, I...

00:58:35.220 He's charming when you meet him.

00:58:36.120 He's so charming.

00:58:36.960 But the point is, the British government...

00:58:39.020 Very good Catholic as well.

00:58:40.440 He is.

00:58:41.020 Great support of the old right laws. 0.67

00:58:43.200 A pro-life leftist.

00:58:44.020 Rather wonderfully, he met Pope Francis and told him,

00:58:47.700 I heard this on the grapevine,

00:58:48.760 and I hope it's true,

00:58:50.060 he told him that he shouldn't be so mean

00:58:51.500 about the Latin mass.

00:58:52.620 So I'm rather pro George Galloway.

00:58:55.380 I am too.

00:58:56.600 But the point is,

00:58:57.300 George Galloway can't live in the nation of his birth

00:58:59.580 because he opposed...

00:59:00.700 George should be free to say what he says,

00:59:02.780 what he wants.

00:59:04.000 We should...

00:59:04.620 I'm very worried as a much broader point

00:59:07.180 about free speech in this country.

00:59:10.000 We can't simply adopt a First Amendment

00:59:12.100 because with an uncodified constitution,

00:59:14.620 it doesn't work.

00:59:15.840 but we have historically protected freedom of speech through the way politicians have behaved

00:59:23.120 and we are now attacking freedom of speech and i'm deeply concerned about that of course if people

00:59:28.500 want to be russian apologists they should be free to do so and they will be ridiculed for it thank

00:59:33.180 you for saying but they should be free to do so should journalists be should britain's be allowed

00:59:38.700 to watch rt or any other news source they want to in their own country of course they should

00:59:43.440 Good.

00:59:43.920 I'm very against banning things.

00:59:45.820 If you think of Lord Haw-Haw in the Second World War,

00:59:48.580 Germany calling, Germany calling,

00:59:51.140 he was a source of ridicule.

00:59:54.660 And actually, the more people listened to him, 1.00

00:59:56.200 the more ridiculous they thought the Germans were. 0.94

00:59:59.400 So I would never ban things, 0.94

01:00:01.180 because you get propaganda broadcast to you,

01:00:04.460 and you laugh at it.

01:00:05.320 The British laugh at most things most of the time.

01:00:07.700 Of course.

01:00:08.180 If we had RT coming through all the time,

01:00:10.280 we'd be giggling at it, thinking,

01:00:11.640 that's rum old stuff.

01:00:14.440 I think that's a wise and evolved point.

01:00:17.400 My final question to you is

01:00:18.400 if for whatever reason

01:00:20.940 Britain's war and America's war

01:00:23.380 against Russia

01:00:24.320 provokes Russia into responding

01:00:27.220 against the UK and the United States

01:00:29.040 and I pray that that doesn't happen

01:00:30.360 but if it does 1.00

01:00:32.200 and Britons are killed 0.99

01:00:34.160 will you be able to say

01:00:36.640 to their surviving loved ones

01:00:38.480 it was worth it

01:00:39.280 that your child died?

01:00:40.720 This is the most important question. Is a war worth your own life?

01:00:47.040 Yes.

01:00:47.920 And the freedom of the United Kingdom is certainly worth my rather elderly life, which won't be much use to anybody.

01:00:53.780 But you cannot say this country must be strong and must be ready to go to war without thinking that if it came to a bomb dropping on your house, that is a bomb you would have to accept.

01:01:03.900 I just don't understand, given what you've already just conceded, that the government of the United Kingdom is punishing and prohibiting people and ideas it doesn't like.

01:01:19.220 Russia is not doing that.

01:01:21.060 So how is—

01:01:21.960 What?

01:01:22.520 To you.

01:01:23.000 You can't say what, but in Russia, it's doing it in spades.

01:01:26.420 It's beating people up.

01:01:27.140 It's arresting them. 0.99

01:01:27.940 It's murdering them. 0.97

01:01:28.040 In your country?

01:01:29.360 Well, it's—

01:01:29.840 No, your citizens are under— 0.58

01:01:31.260 Russia has poisoned people in this country.

01:01:33.900 Russia has put fewer people in jail in the last year for social media posts than the UK has.

01:01:43.440 They just accidentally fall out of windows in Russia.

01:01:46.720 And nobody dares say anything in Russia because they get bullied in there.

01:01:49.280 If you're a Brit, neither of us live in Russia, but if you're a Brit, if you live in this country and your ancestors have lived here for thousands of years,

01:01:55.740 the threat to your freedom comes from your government, not Russia.

01:01:59.040 I'm not in favor of the way free speech is being policed in this country.

01:02:04.460 So why not try to overthrow your government?

01:02:06.320 Well, I hope to stand at the next election.

01:02:08.640 We have a democracy that functions.

01:02:10.480 But if they're oppressing you, if you can't say what you think, that's oppression.

01:02:13.700 They're not oppressing anything that I've tried to say.

01:02:17.820 But I think...

01:02:18.640 Wait a second.

01:02:20.660 That's not how free speech works.

01:02:21.740 No, no, I'm aware of that.

01:02:23.180 But I need to continue.

01:02:24.340 that they are applying laws, to my mind,

01:02:29.820 much too rigorously on people who are saying things

01:02:35.540 that are unpleasant but not dangerous. 0.91

01:02:39.040 I agree with that.

01:02:40.300 I'm not saying anything that is bordering on that.

01:02:43.940 I'm not justifying acts of violence.

01:02:46.820 I'm not pointing towards violence.

01:02:49.100 I'm not doing any of those sorts of things.

01:02:50.960 I think a state is entitled to say

01:02:53.040 that if you put on the internet,

01:02:57.060 let's go and string up Mr. X,

01:03:01.240 that that should be illegal.

01:03:03.080 But I don't think it should be illegal to say,

01:03:06.160 I wish Mr. X were strung up.

01:03:08.880 Exactly.

01:03:09.500 And that's the standard that we have in the United States.

01:03:10.940 And unfortunately, we have been aligning the two.

01:03:14.980 And people have been prosecuting for expressing a desire

01:03:17.620 rather than threatening an action.

01:03:19.800 Well, you're being very generous to your own government.

01:03:21.540 Many people have been prosecuted for expressing views that don't touch on violence at all.

01:03:25.840 There have been completely mad policemen who have gone around to people who have been rude about school teachers.

01:03:31.240 Or praying outside abortion clinics.

01:03:33.060 Which is dreadful. 0.55

01:03:34.860 So my question is, why is that not a much bigger problem than anything Russia is doing to you?

01:03:39.740 Because we have a functioning democracy, we'll have a general election,

01:03:42.100 and I hope we will have a conservative government that will restore freedom of speech.

01:03:47.020 because I think people are getting increasingly angry

01:03:49.260 about how their freedom of speech is being...

01:03:51.320 How can it be a functioning democracy without freedom of speech?

01:03:54.160 Well, because the limits that there are at the moment

01:03:57.520 are, to my mind, wrong and should not be allowed,

01:04:01.020 but they're not affecting normal political discourse. 1.00

01:04:05.120 You know, I'm very against people praying outside abortion clinics

01:04:09.940 being arrested.

01:04:11.580 I bet.

01:04:11.920 I think it's quite improper and is against freedom of speech,

01:04:15.480 but that is not at risk of determining a general election. They are not stopping people from

01:04:21.820 saying, I think Andy Burnham is a useless prime minister. There's no threat of that. 0.95

01:04:29.240 So, there's some overzealous enforcement of laws that are meant to stop harassment,

01:04:37.680 which to my mind go much too far, but there has been as yet no attempt to stop

01:04:44.200 free political speech.

01:04:45.940 Really?

01:04:46.480 So if I say free Palestine? 0.97

01:04:48.300 If you say free Palestine. 0.58

01:04:49.200 From the river to the sea?

01:04:50.700 I want Palestine to be free, 1.00

01:04:52.300 which I don't say, 0.94

01:04:53.060 but I don't know why

01:04:54.360 you wouldn't say that.

01:04:55.720 I can be arrested for that

01:04:56.800 in the UK.

01:04:57.360 Many have been.

01:04:57.880 Well, I think they've only

01:04:59.100 been arrested for saying that

01:05:00.440 if they've been saying it

01:05:01.780 in a way that appears

01:05:02.720 to threaten violence on marches.

01:05:05.080 Don't think they've...

01:05:05.720 If you put that

01:05:06.440 on your Twitter account... 0.93

01:05:07.580 Elderly women have been arrested?

01:05:09.360 I don't think they pose a... 1.00

01:05:10.280 Well, I happen to think 1.00

01:05:10.940 this has been completely stupid. 0.99

01:05:12.240 that they've banned whatever the organization is called. 1.00

01:05:15.920 Palestine Action, I think.

01:05:18.200 And then they've arrested elderly people who belong to it, 1.00

01:05:20.880 which has made the government look stupid. 0.99

01:05:23.300 But what about the elderly people? 1.00

01:05:24.900 What about them? 1.00

01:05:25.640 Who cares about the government? 1.00

01:05:26.760 The government is stupid. 1.00

01:05:28.220 I mean, who cares, right? 1.00

01:05:29.220 The reason this matters is that governments have power

01:05:33.360 to stop terrorist organizations.

01:05:35.160 Quite right.

01:05:36.260 They need to have that power. 0.85

01:05:38.080 But what they've done with Palestine Action 0.65

01:05:41.380 is confuse the people who support it politically

01:05:45.980 with the people who are bad people who want acts of violence.

01:05:50.240 And therefore, they've arrested elderly people who, to my mind, 0.88

01:05:54.000 very silly people, but nonetheless are entitled to their view. 0.89

01:05:57.680 I don't think the arrest of people for supporting a political view is right. 0.95

01:06:04.960 I do think it is reasonable to arrest people who propose and prepare acts of terrorism.

01:06:10.000 I agree.

01:06:10.400 So we're agreeing on that.

01:06:11.960 But yes, there has been overzealous efforts. 0.99

01:06:16.760 And as I say, I think it's made the government look very foolish. 0.90

01:06:19.820 And this is one of the great things about having freedom of the press and so on, 0.97

01:06:23.680 which we still have, is that governments, when they are overzealous,

01:06:28.940 which is in the nature of government, doesn't really work 0.96

01:06:32.780 because they get to look ridiculous. 0.96

01:06:35.340 I hope you're right. 0.87

01:06:37.000 I'm not pessimistic about the ultimate success of free speech in this country.

01:06:41.900 Well, I'm rooting for that, and I'm rooting for the country itself,

01:06:45.280 and I'm rooting for peace, and I hope you don't pick a fight with Russia.

01:06:48.640 We're not picking a fight with Russia. We just want to be strong.

01:06:51.240 And I am grateful for all the time that you have spent graciously entertaining my nasty questions.

01:06:56.740 No, they're not nasty at all. I don't have a concept of nasty question.

01:07:01.800 Thank you.

01:07:02.480 Thank you very much.

01:07:03.240 Mr. Riesma, thank you. And thank you truly for your graciousness.

01:07:06.200 It's a pleasure.

01:07:06.840 Pleasure.

01:07:07.200 Thank you.

The Tucker Carlson Show - October 02, 2026

“Prepare for War” - Tucker Confronts Britain’s Most Pro-War Advocate

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