The Tucker Carlson Show - Tucker on Macklemore’s Cancellation and the So-Called “Conservatives” Championing Censorship

00:00:00.000 Last Friday was the year anniversary of Charlie Kirk's murder and the internet was flooded with

00:00:05.280 remembrances of Charlie and unfortunately even more so all kinds of predatory people trying to

00:00:11.400 use the memory of a fallen man for their own political or financial purposes. That's kind of

00:00:17.340 always the case. We sat it out because that was depressing to see. But you did see people who knew

00:00:24.160 him genuinely well and liked him and weren't trying to profit from his death raise the question

00:00:28.560 how do we honor his memory? And that is a completely fair question. But it begins with

00:00:33.460 a more fundamental question, which was, what was his life about? If you were to remember Charlie

00:00:38.380 Kirk, what are the first qualities of his that come to mind? Of course, are the personal qualities,

00:00:43.540 enthusiasm and decency and energy and intelligence. But his beliefs, well, as someone who knew Charlie

00:00:52.160 well, I would sum them up this way. He believed all kinds of things. But the main thing he believed

00:00:56.780 was Christianity. He was a sincerely religious man. He was a follower of Jesus.

00:01:03.480 And politically, he believed a lot of things as well. Of course, he spent a life talking about

00:01:07.960 them. But above all, he believed in free speech, the right of human beings to say what they think,

00:01:16.080 to share their deepest beliefs. And those two were directly related. Charlie Kirk believed in

00:01:22.620 free speech because he believed in God, and because he believed in God, he believed that

00:01:27.560 each person was created by God with a distinct soul. God does not create communities, God creates

00:01:33.100 individuals. And because they are individuals, sovereign individuals created in the likeness

00:01:39.980 of the Creator, each one has an inherent right to say what he thinks to his own conscience,

00:01:47.120 to make up his own mind and to express his conclusions. So that's where the belief

00:01:53.420 in free speech comes from. That's reflected, by the way, in the founding documents of the

00:01:59.220 United States. These are inherent rights. They're not given to us by the state. We are born with

00:02:03.800 them, and the purpose of the state is to protect them. And Charlie Kirk was an eloquent defender

00:02:09.560 of this idea and a great explainer of this idea, not just eloquent and good at it, but really one

00:02:15.560 the very few left. There are not a lot of people explaining why free speech is important and what

00:02:21.360 it is. But Charlie Kirk spent really the entirety of his public life doing that up until the day he

00:02:27.380 was murdered. We could have picked a lot of clips to show you on the question of Charlie Kirk and

00:02:33.020 free speech, but we just grabbed one and it's as good as any. Here's Charlie Kirk, I think last

00:02:39.480 year, but it could have been any year, explaining what free speech is and why he defends it. Watch.

00:02:44.960 I was wondering if you could talk about where you draw the line with free speech, hate speech and slander.

00:02:51.380 It's a terrific question.

00:02:54.460 My position is that even hate speech should be completely and totally allowed in our country.

00:03:00.360 The most disgusting speech should absolutely be protected.

00:03:03.820 And it's not a viewpoint that is held by the left.

00:03:06.980 The ACLU used to hold this viewpoint.

00:03:08.700 The American Civil Liberties Union, they sued so that legitimate Nazis could march through downtown Skokie.

00:03:15.360 You remember this back in the 80s and 90s?

00:03:18.200 Now, why would the ACLU do this?

00:03:20.760 Because they said, as soon as you use the word hate, that is a very subjective term.

00:03:26.860 Because then all of a sudden it is in the eyes or it is in the implementation of whomever has the power.

00:03:35.800 So here's my belief.

00:03:36.800 The more speech, the better.

00:03:38.700 Well, exactly. So not only is it answer good, the question actually reveals a lot, too. So the

00:03:43.640 question was, what's your view of free speech, hate speech, and slander? And Charlie didn't

00:03:50.880 explain the difference between those three categories, but it's worth just pausing for a

00:03:54.320 moment. So there's free speech, which, as described, is inherent to every person. You have an inherent

00:04:00.660 right. You were born with this right. You will die with this right. Whether or not it's abridged,

00:04:04.060 that still exists, to say what you think, to express your conscience out loud. There is a

00:04:10.240 category called hate speech, which, as Charlie just said, effectively means speech the people

00:04:15.160 in charge hate. And there's a third category called slander, and that's a legal category.

00:04:20.320 What's the difference between hate speech or ugly speech, speech I don't want to hear,

00:04:24.820 and slander? Well, it's worth saying the difference is slander is by definition untrue.

00:04:30.240 that is the legal definition of slander is factually incorrect you are lying you're lying

00:04:35.960 about somebody or something free speech and even this category called hate speech

00:04:41.920 those are true things and therefore they cannot be abridged ever why because you have to have

00:04:50.780 the right to tell the truth and any society that doesn't protect that right collapses

00:04:56.640 and is also, of course, morally stained. On what grounds are you suppressing something that's true?

00:05:03.980 So slander is by definition a lie, but protected speech is true, or it's believed by the person

00:05:10.740 who utters it to be true, and that's a meaningful distinction as well. I'm not lying. Of course,

00:05:15.060 I've been wrong about a ton of things and will be again, but this is my sincere belief. I mean it,

00:05:21.020 And that includes opinions, but also claims. I believe this is true.

00:05:26.140 And so if you are ruling over people, which is to say human beings, if you consider the people

00:05:33.820 you have care over or power over to be human beings, then by definition, you can never

00:05:40.380 prevent their right to say what they think is true. Of course, because by definition,

00:05:47.440 if you do that, you are not treating them as human beings because you don't consider them

00:05:50.960 human beings. That's how you treat a slave. You don't have to listen to what a slave says because

00:05:55.080 he's not a human being. So in the very same way you can tell your dogs to stop barking, you can tell

00:05:59.560 a slave to shut up because he doesn't have that right because he's not fully human.

00:06:05.180 So anybody in charge who tells you you're not allowed to say something that you believe is true

00:06:09.800 is not treating you as a human being. He's treating you as a slave. That's how he sees you.

00:06:15.340 And you should know that because underneath the impulse to censor other people, and it's always

00:06:22.600 dressed up as something else, concern, protection. But what really underlies it, of course,

00:06:29.820 is malice and contempt. I hate you. I don't consider you fully human. Therefore, I'm not 0.99

00:06:35.640 going to allow you to speak. That is unmistakably the message of every attempt to censor speech.

00:06:41.600 and as Charlie Kirk said pretty well in the clip we just showed you it is always employed by the

00:06:48.620 people in charge on their own behalf in other words censorship is the process of the people

00:06:55.140 in charge telling you you're not allowed to criticize them and of course they're clever

00:06:59.740 enough almost never to say that though increasingly they are saying that but in general they don't

00:07:05.580 and so they dress it up and they say well there's some group that's somehow powerless

00:07:09.840 and you can't criticize them because they don't have power

00:07:13.940 and your criticism of them is cruelty

00:07:16.600 and there's a power imbalance and you're punching down

00:07:19.500 and we're not going to allow that on their behalf.

00:07:22.900 Well, whether or not that's actually true and we could debate it,

00:07:25.980 the one thing you can be certain of

00:07:28.200 is the group they claim to be protecting is just a proxy for them.

00:07:32.760 It's just a proxy for them.

00:07:34.240 always attempts at censorship are an attempt to protect the people in charge from criticism

00:07:42.860 and has famously been noted if you want to know who is in charge ask yourself who you're not

00:07:47.820 allowed to criticize that's just a fact that's not a slur or a slander that is a fact because

00:07:53.540 of course you would never affect censorship except in defense of your own interests and that

00:08:00.940 is 100% of the time what happens. Censorship is used to protect the powerful from criticism,

00:08:08.280 to gird and protect their power. Of course, there's no other reason for it. And because

00:08:15.060 the people in charge are usually, in every age, no matter who they are, fairly clever and ruthless,

00:08:21.300 that's how they got there, they will almost always find some fairly sophisticated way to

00:08:27.980 hide that fact. And once again, they will tell you that your criticism of their behavior is

00:08:33.140 somehow cruelty or out of bounds. But no, what it really is, is a threat to their power, of course.

00:08:40.300 And so Charlie Kirk's prescription is the only prescription. And he said this repeatedly.

00:08:44.600 If you don't like speech you hear, there is only one way. There are not a myriad ways. There's one

00:08:51.060 way to combat that, and it's with more speech. Tell me how I'm wrong. And in fact, he spent the

00:08:57.600 last years of his life, touring the country, effectively asking crowds that. Tell me how I'm

00:09:01.820 wrong. Ask me anything. I'll defend any of my positions and I'll do so openly at length in

00:09:07.700 public. And if he died for anything, it's that. In fact, he died doing that. And so if you wanted

00:09:14.540 to honor his memory, of course, you would try to keep that dying tradition alive. No one seems to

00:09:20.080 be doing that. But what you wouldn't do under any circumstances is do the thing that he devoted his

00:09:26.500 life to fighting, which is shutting down speech you don't like, with threats or censorship or

00:09:32.780 even with back-of-the-hand dismissals and name-calling. No, you would pause and take

00:09:37.580 seriously the criticism, even if you think it's illegitimate, aimed at you or your beliefs and

00:09:42.440 explain why it's wrong and offer a counter vision of what you think is right. This was what the

00:09:49.260 right used to refer to famously as the marketplace of ideas because the idea was that the market

00:09:54.560 itself was self-correcting. That was the beauty of it. It was an invisible hand in charge of the

00:09:58.220 market. And it would find natural equilibrium if you just backed off and allowed that to happen.

00:10:03.920 So if two people had opposing views, they would debate those views in public.

00:10:10.220 And then the people watching could decide which was valid on the basis of the strength of the

00:10:14.780 arguments and the facts marshaled. That was the tradition of debate. In fact, that was the core

00:10:21.220 of the Western tradition of discourse, going all the way back to Athens. And that's what Charlie

00:10:27.080 Kirk was upholding when he was murdered. And what's interesting is that the last presidential

00:10:33.280 election, the 2024 election, though very few people said this out loud, really was a referendum

00:10:39.440 in part on this, because it was a reaction against what we now refer to as wokeism or cancel culture.

00:10:46.120 Well, what are those things? Well, they're really two things. They're identity politics, the idea

00:10:50.660 that on the basis of your bloodline, how you look, qualities you were born with, your genes,

00:10:57.340 you are subject to different rules than other people. Certain groups get treated differently

00:11:02.580 because of the nature of those groups. We are no longer equal in our citizenship. Some groups

00:11:08.300 are treated differently, usually better, but sometimes worse. 0.92

00:11:12.840 And because that is true, because certain groups get special rights, certain groups are the only

00:11:20.200 people who can use certain words, for example, literally, because of that, we have to constrain

00:11:28.580 the speech of everybody else. We need censorship in order to protect those groups. So to sort of

00:11:36.760 move beyond the details of this or that specific controversy, that's a pretty accurate description

00:11:41.980 of what wokeism and cancel culture were and are.

00:11:47.500 And the truth is, most people find it tiresome,

00:11:51.040 if not infuriating and immoral,

00:11:52.980 to live in a country governed by rules like that,

00:11:55.380 which are constantly changing,

00:11:56.680 never fully explained to anybody,

00:11:59.480 backed by no principles whatsoever

00:12:01.540 other than the interest of the people in charge.

00:12:04.560 And kind of no one likes that.

00:12:06.540 Who likes that?

00:12:07.380 In fact, it is so universally disliked

00:12:10.480 that standard or shifting standard whatever suits the people in charge

00:12:14.860 that even Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez congresswoman from Brooklyn who hopes to run for president in

00:12:21.180 this upcoming cycle was of course a great and famous practitioner of identity politics and

00:12:26.540 wokeism got elected to congress on it in fact she was out there the other day kind of mildly

00:12:32.280 denouncing it saying that was kind of silly in the same way that people who screamed at you for

00:12:38.500 not taking the COVID vax are now willing to say, yeah, we kind of went a little overboard,

00:12:41.740 a little overboard, got a little crazy, caught up in the moment.

00:12:45.760 And that's their way of acknowledging that their past behavior was reprehensible to some

00:12:50.800 extent, but also their way of avoiding any penalty for what they did by half admitting

00:12:58.900 that what they did is wrong.

00:13:00.820 And they do this because they don't really have an option.

00:13:03.320 I mean, nobody would defend the federal government's response to COVID at this point, and nobody

00:13:08.440 no sane person would defend wokeism circa 2022 at this point because it's just so obviously awful

00:13:16.660 and absurd and childish and cruel and it hurt a lot of people. So the point is if we're at a place

00:13:22.320 where even Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is admitting that wokeism is pretty stupid at best, I think we 0.99

00:13:31.520 can say conclusively that everybody's against it. The problem, however, is that not everybody 0.98

00:13:37.280 is against it. And this gets to the question of why it exists in the first place. It doesn't exist

00:13:43.120 because it's a remedy to some obvious injustice because there was just so much racism in America

00:13:49.040 or so much anti-Semitism in America that someone had to act before people got hurt. That's just

00:13:53.620 not true. There, of course, is racism and anti-Semitism and all kinds of bad attitudes

00:13:58.080 and hatreds and all of that. But that's not what these movements are about. Every single one of

00:14:04.920 them is an effort by the people in charge to protect their own power, obviously. And that's

00:14:09.500 just always true, no matter who's in charge. And so every group that's in charge faces the

00:14:14.440 temptation to dive headfirst into identity politics, which, by the way, has the ancillary

00:14:18.940 effect of dividing the country to the point where you can dominate the country. Fight amongst

00:14:24.020 yourselves. We sell you meme coins or invade Iran or whatever. So there's that, but it's also just

00:14:30.700 kind of a classic move employed by the powerful against everybody else. And so Charlie Cook

00:14:38.100 understood this. He understood that when he criticized wokeism or attacks on speech or

00:14:44.160 identity politics, he wasn't simply speaking to the people who were then in charge. And we checked

00:14:48.580 that clip you saw was from 2021 during the early Biden administration, Democrats were in charge.

00:14:57.580 He wasn't just criticizing them because he knew that in his own party, which was the

00:15:02.820 Republican Party, there were people who, if they ever got power, would immediately embrace

00:15:07.520 exactly the same worldview and employ exactly the same tactics against the entire country.

00:15:13.160 He knew those people existed because even then they existed.

00:15:18.000 And now, of course, they dominate completely the Republican Party.

00:15:21.780 And we could spend hours going through the irony and pulling the clips of Republicans

00:15:26.500 denouncing cancel culture. And then a year later, appearing on Fox News to champion cancel culture,

00:15:32.760 literally the cancellation of people whose opinions they don't like. But we're not going

00:15:36.820 to do that because it's just too easy and too depressing. But instead, we just want to show

00:15:41.620 you an example of what Charlie Kirk feared. And we're not guessing about this. Lots of people

00:15:45.580 jump up and down about the legacy of Charlie Kirk and try and grab it for their own. But we are

00:15:49.740 totally confident when we say that Charlie Kirk then, and were he still with us now, would oppose

00:15:58.380 what you're about to see. So this is a Republican congressman from New York called Mike Lawler,

00:16:05.160 and he's explaining his views on free speech. Watch. We have seen a rapid rise in anti-Semitism

00:16:11.380 on these college campuses, and we need to crack down on it. This is not a free speech issue. This

00:16:17.000 hate speech. Chanting from the river to the sea was not aspirational. It was absolutely vile

00:16:23.960 and intended to undermine Israel and frankly call for its extermination. And that cannot be

00:16:33.680 tolerated anywhere in this country. Oh, it cannot be tolerated. It's not free speech to have that

00:16:39.780 opinion. It's hate speech. It absolutely can't be tolerated. Now, that man, Mike Lawler, who again

00:16:44.840 is a Republican member of Congress, not one of the brighter ones, but still apparently a member

00:16:49.820 in good standing of the Republican Party serving in the House of Representatives. A little over a

00:16:56.700 year after that, sponsored legislation with his Democratic colleague, Josh Gottheimer, to ban

00:17:03.600 criticisms of the government of Israel, to encode in federal law the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism,

00:17:09.400 which is, well, seven out of 11 criteria are criticisms of the state of Israel. The government

00:17:16.240 of Israel and its behavior would be classified under federal law anti-Semitism and therefore

00:17:21.620 a hate crime. It would be illegal, for example, under the definition that he tried to encode in

00:17:26.460 federal law to describe what the Israelis are doing in Gaza as a genocide. But what if it is

00:17:33.260 a genocide? What if it meets every definition of genocide? What if murdering 20,000 children

00:17:40.520 could be proven, which it already has been? Would it be okay to say that? No. Not under that law,

00:17:47.540 which thankfully did not pass, but it will someday if this trajectory continues. So here you have a

00:17:54.180 Republican who no doubt would describe himself as a conservative, a constitutional conservative,

00:17:58.140 trying to ban criticism of a foreign country so it cannot be tolerated and what's interesting is

00:18:05.520 why so this is not a blanket ban that Mike Lawler is trying to get into federal law where you can't

00:18:11.620 criticize foreign countries there are plenty of foreign countries Mike Lawler would like you to

00:18:16.080 criticize in fact there are countries Mike Lawler's destruction has called for himself Russia for

00:18:20.420 example or Iran countries that his donors don't like so what you're watching here once again

00:18:28.240 is the most powerful people in the society Mike Lawler's donors of course he'll repeat whatever

00:18:34.340 they ask him to repeat trying to encode their preferences and their advantages in our legal

00:18:41.860 code in other words you take this 250 year old country and you take the machinery of the country

00:18:48.980 and you use it to your own benefit, to protect you and to make you richer. That's exactly what

00:18:53.940 you're seeing here. There's no principle at all involved in this. Mike Lawler is saying it should

00:19:00.200 not be allowed to criticize Israel, but you can criticize Russia. Again, why? Well, because Mike

00:19:06.760 Lawler's donors love Israel and they hate Russia. Therefore, you can criticize the country they hate,

00:19:13.440 but you're not allowed to criticize the country they love. Okay. So that's just like a total

00:19:18.400 collapse of the rule of law, of decency, and of the thing that you really have to have in order

00:19:25.820 to have a real country, which is a love of the truth. What's true, what's objectively true,

00:19:32.020 provably true, has to be, has to remain at the center of the project, has to remain at the

00:19:38.540 center of your legal code. You can't convict people of a crime unless you can prove that

00:19:42.540 they did it. You have to know the truth before you can punish someone. Therefore, if somebody

00:19:49.900 says something true, you have to allow them to say it, period, whether you like it or not.

00:19:56.200 If someone walks up to you and says, you've gained 30 pounds and you have, that might be a rude thing

00:20:02.160 to say. You might hate to hear it, but you cannot punish someone for telling the truth, even if it

00:20:07.300 stings but they're trying they trying and by they we mean everybody in charge and at this point

00:20:16.340 that means republicans but of course it's hard to get censorship through the congress

00:20:25.280 because we do have this thing called the bill of rights and the first right enumerated in it the

00:20:30.940 very first is the right to say what you think is true the first amendment protects your right

00:20:36.620 to say what you think is true and prevents the government from constraining that right in any

00:20:40.680 way. And this has been debated for 200 years. And so we know what the parameters are and they're

00:20:45.220 very, very wide. So it's going to be pretty hard for any sitting member of Congress to vote for

00:20:50.880 a Mike Lawler bill. So they have to find another way to prevent you from telling obvious truths

00:20:57.540 that they find inconvenient or that their donors don't care for. So how are they going to do that?

00:21:02.360 well, through threats of violence, of course. It always comes to that, through threats of violence,

00:21:08.320 through intimidation, through making you afraid to say what you think is true. And so it's probably

00:21:13.780 not surprising that the clip we're about to show you in just a moment comes from Nikki Haley. She's

00:21:18.480 the former governor of South Carolina and has some appealing qualities for sure. Not everything about

00:21:24.580 Nikki Haley is bad, but one thing about Nikki Haley is notable, which is her very high tolerance 0.58

00:21:29.160 for violence. So Nikki Haley was one of the very few Republican politicians who in the opening 0.99

00:21:36.840 hours of the George Floyd riots, when the city of Minneapolis was on fire and a police station was

00:21:41.920 burning to the ground, cars were flipped over, people were being shot to death, women were being 0.77

00:21:46.540 raped. Clearly things were getting out of control. This was mob violence, which is the scariest thing 0.95

00:21:52.020 and anyone who's ever seen it firsthand can confirm that. As she watched that on television,

00:21:57.520 Nikki Haley sent out a tweet saying, in effect, you go, mobs. America needs this,

00:22:05.400 the cleansing fire of rioting to burn the racism from our souls. We're dressing it up in a more

00:22:11.540 poetic way, but you can pull up the tweet because it's still on the internet. Nikki Haley saw the

00:22:16.220 destruction of an American city by violence and approved of it. So someone like that,

00:22:23.320 who is willing to tolerate the killing of people who did nothing wrong for the larger good of

00:22:30.900 purging racism from the American soul, probably doesn't have a very difficult time saying

00:22:38.480 something like this. Watch. When I get into office, the first thing we have to do is social

00:22:43.560 media accounts, social media companies, they have to show America their algorithms. Let us see why

00:22:49.120 they're pushing what they're pushing. The second thing is every person on social media should be

00:22:53.820 verified by their name. First of all, it's a national security threat. When you do that,

00:23:00.140 all of a sudden people have to stand by what they say and it gets rid of the Russian bots,

00:23:04.480 the Iranian bots and the Chinese bots. And then you're going to get some civility when people

00:23:09.400 know their name is next to what they say. It's a national security threat that you have opinions

00:23:16.160 that Nikki Haley's donors don't like, because the problem is Russian bots or Iranian bots,

00:23:23.660 North Korean bots, bots her donors don't like. The problem is not bots, of course. Nikki Haley's

00:23:27.980 totally in favor of bots if they're, say, Israeli bots, which dominate social media at the moment.

00:23:32.280 I haven't heard many complaints from Nikki Haley about that. That's not a national security threat.

00:23:36.300 The national security threat is that you might express something true, and we can't find you to

00:23:41.060 hold you accountable for that. So this kind of thinking can get you to, I don't know, North

00:23:46.520 Korea pretty quick. In fact, probably unlikely that North Korean politicians have the balls to 0.98

00:23:51.820 say something that open in public. Because if you have no right to express your view anonymously 0.93

00:23:59.340 online, why do you have a right to turn to your wife in bed with the shades closed and say

00:24:04.680 something naughty about Israel? That could be a national security threat too. Anytime people say

00:24:10.020 something out loud that Nikki Haley doesn't like, it's a national security threat, and we have to

00:24:14.960 find out who's saying it. So as a practical matter, why would it be so important for Nikki Haley

00:24:21.320 to strip the shield of anonymity from people on the internet? Why do we have to know who you are

00:24:26.980 if you criticize Israel? That's an interesting question. And the deeper question is, why would

00:24:33.540 people fear saying what they think about Israel to the point where they wouldn't say it under

00:24:38.380 their own name? That's a question worth asking too. Why are people so intimidated by Nikki Haley's

00:24:45.220 donors that they don't want to express their views openly? Don't you want to live in a country

00:24:49.560 where people just say what they think, where they're not afraid? Or would you rather live

00:24:53.480 in a country where people cower before the threats of figures like Nikki Haley and her national

00:25:00.860 security concerns, and they just won't say what they think because they know they could be hurt

00:25:06.180 for doing it. Well, Nikki Haley clearly prefers the latter. But by stripping the anonymity away

00:25:12.640 from people online, it would allow, I don't know, some organized nonprofit group to hunt down

00:25:20.960 anyone they find online expressing unapproved thoughts about Israel and hurt them, really hurt

00:25:28.860 them. So this clip is from the woman who changed her name, by the way, speaking of anonymity.

00:25:35.680 she had some kind of eastern european name now she has a kind of strange one syllable last name

00:25:40.560 anyway not using her real name in any case here is the woman who runs a group called stop

00:25:45.820 antisemitism which is a digital vigilante group and that's not an overstatement as you're about

00:25:51.120 to see but she's describing what her group does to people who criticize the israeli government

00:25:56.980 watch this we have featured more than 1 000 antisemites on our platforms 1 000

00:26:04.740 Not theorized about them, not quietly documented them, feature them publicly, clearly, and with evidence.

00:26:14.420 The results speak for themselves.

00:26:17.280 Approximately 400 of these Jew haters have faced real consequences, including firings, suspensions, and expulsions.

00:26:27.120 If you target Jewish students, your actions will not disappear into the darkness.

00:26:32.120 We will shine a light on you that, thanks to Google and SEO, will follow you for the rest of your life. 0.96

00:26:39.860 When you look for a job, when you look for a spouse, when you look for a nanny, when you look for anything,

00:26:45.900 our work will always be documented, again, thanks to Google and SEO.

00:26:51.500 Huh. When you look for a job, when you look for a spouse? Really?

00:26:58.380 So what are we talking about here

00:27:00.260 when she says when you target Jewish students,

00:27:02.440 when you hate Jews?

00:27:04.660 Well, of course, anyone who makes physical threats

00:27:07.140 against anybody, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu,

00:27:10.240 doesn't matter, that person has committed a crime

00:27:13.020 and we have, well, layers of law enforcement agencies

00:27:15.780 to deal with that, and they do, and they should.

00:27:18.920 But that's not what she's talking about.

00:27:20.780 She's talking about the IHRA,

00:27:24.340 International Holocaust Remembrance Association,

00:27:27.640 definition of anti-Semitism. And as noted, there are 11 examples of anti-Semitism, and seven

00:27:33.880 are criticism of the Israeli government, which, to remind you, is a foreign government. It's not

00:27:38.500 the U.S. government. By the way, criticism, including intemperate criticism of the U.S.

00:27:43.120 government, is always and everywhere allowed, and in fact encouraged in our schools by our

00:27:48.080 government officials. You can accuse the U.S. government, our government, the one that your

00:27:51.400 ancestors died for, in any way that you like. You can accuse them of sending crack into black

00:27:56.640 neighborhoods. And by the way, maybe they did. Who knows? We don't really know. But we know that 1.00

00:28:01.380 it's perfectly fine to speculate about that. We know that it's hate to suggest the Israeli

00:28:06.680 government might have been involved in the assassination of our president, John F. Kennedy,

00:28:11.180 in 1963, though there's evidence they were. But it's totally within bounds to suggest our CIA

00:28:16.700 was also involved. That's totally fine. And it looks like they were involved, by the way,

00:28:22.200 in that assassination. And that's fine. And there's no penalty for acknowledging that.

00:28:25.820 But to suggest that they might have worked in concert with the Israeli government, well, that will open you up to online vigilantism like that, where you can't have a job, you can't have a spouse, can you even live here?

00:28:41.040 Hard to know.

00:28:42.660 So when Nikki Haley calls for stripping the shield of anonymity from people who dare to 0.54

00:28:48.300 criticize her donor's favorite country, the reason she's doing it is so the woman you 0.92

00:28:54.060 just saw on the screen can bat clean up and round up the people foolish enough to say 1.00

00:28:59.000 what they really think and hurt them, not just in the short or medium term, but for 0.96

00:29:03.360 life.

00:29:04.120 No spouse for you.

00:29:05.260 No job for you. 0.99

00:29:06.460 Maybe you starve to death. 1.00

00:29:07.720 That's okay because you're a hater.

00:29:09.500 and of course the great overarching irony of all of this is who's the hater so if you go online and

00:29:17.460 say i think what the israeli government is doing to children in gaza is immoral because i'm not

00:29:22.720 for killing children you get screamed at and called a hater by someone who then tells you

00:29:28.440 you can never get married or have a job again who's the hater exactly of course but the problem

00:29:34.800 is because no one in authority has pushed back against any of this and because the temperature

00:29:39.240 has risen to a point that sincerely is dangerous it's accelerated and so there's no doubt trying

00:29:46.660 to be charitable about it that the woman you just saw from stop anti-semitism believes that she's

00:29:51.140 doing a virtuous thing she believes she is saving jewish people from nazis now of course her

00:29:57.240 definition is deranged most people who are against killing children are also anti-nazi

00:30:02.320 by definition. Of course, violence against innocence was one of the signature crimes of

00:30:08.100 the Nazi regime. That's why we're against the Nazis in the first place. We're not mad about 0.80

00:30:11.520 their economic policy. Most of us don't even know what it was. We're mad because they hurt

00:30:15.080 innocent people. And that's always and everywhere immoral. And so there's probably a huge overlap

00:30:21.260 between people who are disgusted by what the Israeli government is doing in the territories

00:30:25.240 it occupies and people who are also disgusted by what the Nazi regime did in the territories

00:30:30.540 it occupied probably almost a hundred percent overlap between those two groups

00:30:35.100 but because no one will say that out loud and because extremists have been allowed to hijack

00:30:43.460 the conversation and because there isn't actually free speech on this topic the free speech that

00:30:47.900 charlie kirk so assiduously called for the other side of the argument which is moderate and temperate

00:30:54.460 and fact-based and not hateful, which is universal rather than sectarian, which rejects identity

00:31:01.320 politics in favor of universally applicable standards for every human being, that side of

00:31:06.820 the argument rarely gets an airing, if ever. And so the net result of this is to, with every passing

00:31:16.540 day, make people crazier, angrier, and less restrained. And if that process continues long

00:31:24.640 enough, you wind up with Mark Levin. Basically, in the clip, we're about to show you calling for

00:31:30.420 Kristallnacht. Watch. For six months, I've been fighting these bastards, whether it's Tucker

00:31:37.580 Carlson or whether it's Nick Fuentes, and I've been looking over my shoulder looking for help. 0.99

00:31:44.080 And you know what I found?

00:31:47.100 Nothing.

00:31:49.280 Nothing.

00:31:51.780 We're here today to do something about this.

00:31:55.440 What do you mean we don't cancel people?

00:32:00.120 We cancel David Duke.

00:32:02.820 Donald Trump canceled David Duke.

00:32:05.440 We canceled Pat Buchanan.

00:32:07.620 We canceled the John Birch Society.

00:32:10.280 We canceled Joseph Sobrin. 0.99

00:32:11.780 we canceled pornography on tv we cancel stuff all the damn time hitler admires stalin admires 0.99

00:32:20.220 jew haters american haters churchill haters you're damn right we're going to cancel them 0.99

00:32:26.140 and de-platform them whenever you hear that guy tug you want to be serious because it does matter 0.96

00:32:32.240 and it is important to explain what's wrong with what he said but it's so disjointed and

00:32:37.120 and illogical and there's always at least a line or two in there that doesn't make any sense at

00:32:41.540 we canceled pornography on tv you know i think you've promoted pornography on tv as far as i know

00:32:47.260 um churchill haters just like throw it in there jew haters okay yeah i'm against jew haters

00:32:54.620 churchill haters you're not allowed to hate churchill now was like some british prime

00:33:00.460 minister who screwed up at gallipoli i think it's okay to dislike churchill no i kind of let me check

00:33:06.560 my passport and see if there's fine print in there about having to pledge loyalty to churchill i don't

00:33:11.340 recall that part of the american creed churchill haters where did that come from actually you

00:33:19.420 should think about it because if it's disqualifying to hate churchill maybe there's more to churchill

00:33:27.780 than we've been told why are they defending churchill now they've gotten pornography off tv

00:33:33.160 mark levin's against pornography sorry for the sidetrack there it's just impossible uh to parse

00:33:39.860 a Mark Levin speech without winding up in a cul-de-sac but to the center of what he's saying

00:33:44.980 here you have so the speech you just saw was given November 1st 2025 so that's almost exactly

00:33:50.360 one year from Donald Trump's second election as president which was the first Tuesday of course

00:33:57.000 of November 2024 and if you can recall back almost two years and ask yourself what was that

00:34:02.960 election about and if you voted for Trump and if you're watching this maybe you did I did

00:34:07.500 what were you voting for well probably a lot of things lower gas prices no more foreign wars

00:34:14.380 but one of the things you were voting against of course was what we called cancel culture

00:34:19.460 the idea that if you disagree with someone you just shut them down can't have a bank account

00:34:23.720 can't fly in an airplane can't have a job can't have a spouse we're just going to cancel you we're

00:34:29.280 not going to rebut what you're saying we're not going to explain why it's wrong we're not going 0.92

00:34:32.960 offer a competing vision that entices you over to our side, we're going to smack you in the face as 1.00

00:34:37.920 hard as we can until you shut up and never say it again. In fact, we may hurt you as a lesson to 1.00

00:34:42.900 everybody else. Hang you by your ankles so passers-by will know, don't say that. That's what 0.99

00:34:48.200 cancel culture is. And if there's one thing that virtually every single human being who voted for

00:34:53.440 Donald Trump fewer than two years ago voted against, it's cancel culture. And here's Donald

00:34:58.740 trump's favorite pundit a fox news host in good standing unlike some of us calling openly in a

00:35:07.460 speech on camera for cancel culture including canceling people who don't like winston churchill 1.00

00:35:11.920 but there's menace in his voice of course damn it bastards bastards 1.00

00:35:20.700 he wants to hurt people who disagree with him he's got what we used to refer to in right-wing 1.00

00:35:31.060 world is antifa face ah screwed up in rage i'm mad at my parents i'm gonna beat you in the face 0.96

00:35:37.880 with a flagpole antifa face mark levin maybe this is what power does to people maybe when they 0.99

00:35:45.780 finally have the ability to hurt others, when they think they can finally make words they don't like

00:35:52.080 go away, shut up or I'll hurt you, they can't resist using the power to do that. It may be that

00:35:56.980 power itself corrupts everyone who wields it. That's something we're thinking about. You don't

00:36:01.680 want to believe that, but there's a lot of evidence that that's true, given that the people we elected

00:36:07.040 fewer than two years ago wound up behaving exactly like the people they replaced, except a little more

00:36:12.880 aggressive and a little less disorganized because of course the upside of dealing with liberals is

00:36:18.700 they you know everything is like macrame and campfires they can never really get it together

00:36:23.440 they argue amongst themselves but you elect these guys and they're of course still disorganized and

00:36:30.380 flaky and no they probably couldn't organize your daughter's birthday party very well but

00:36:34.780 they're a little better than the kamala harris team so it's the same brand of politics but a

00:36:40.400 little harder edged. What? It's just remarkable to see it, and it makes you wonder, are there

00:36:46.320 options? And if you care about speech, which is to say if you care about humanity, because

00:36:52.420 there's no difference, we are defined by language and our ability to use it. It's not the opposable

00:36:58.320 thumb that separates us from animals. It's our tongue. It's language. It's words. In the beginning

00:37:03.800 was the Word, as the opening verse of John says, and it's true. The Word is the most important

00:37:13.940 thing. Words are the most important thing. They endure long past. Bullets or cannons or swords

00:37:21.440 have been replaced by some new technology that kills people, but all that in the end is forgotten.

00:37:25.760 Words remain. Your words define you, and if someone takes away your words and your ability

00:37:31.980 to articulate them. They've stripped you of your humanity. So in the end, it is the thing that we

00:37:38.060 have to defend. We have no choice. We have a moral obligation, an obligation, a duty to the people

00:37:44.320 who follow us to defend it. But now the question is who will defend it? Because when the party that

00:37:53.280 opposed free speech got beaten by the party that promised to uphold free speech, and then less than

00:38:00.520 two years later, both are united in their total opposition to free speech and are threatening

00:38:06.380 people, openly threatening people, hurting people who disagree with them and not even bothering to

00:38:12.300 explain why they're wrong. You have to ask if both parties are against it, who's for it?

00:38:19.880 And before you think too long, here's the answer. Everyone is for it except the people in charge.

00:38:24.080 That's the truth. People with power always oppose free speech. Everybody else, of course, clings to it like a life jacket. It's all they have in a country where people no longer have economic power, where the middle class hasn't been the majority of the country since 2015, where the integrity of our elections is, well, up for debate in a world where AI can hack anything.

00:38:50.320 Anyone who thinks electronic voting is secure hasn't thought about it very carefully.

00:38:55.840 So in a world where people don't have economic power, and they may or may not have political

00:39:00.200 power, what power do they have?

00:39:02.700 The power of their own conscience and their inalienable right to express what's on their

00:39:09.560 conscience.

00:39:10.220 They have, in the end, only one thing, and that's their words.

00:39:13.940 And so anyone who seeks to take that away from them is a blood enemy.

00:39:17.500 make no mistake and that gets us to the free speech case of the moment which is a unusually

00:39:26.180 illuminating one and it has to do with a performer called macklemore you may or may not be familiar

00:39:30.900 with but he was scheduled to give a performance with ed sheeran at gillette stadium recently and

00:39:38.620 he was canceled by robert craft owner of the patriots and owner of a number of stadiums who

00:39:44.820 who is, I think it's fair to say,

00:39:46.360 a fairly fanatical devotee of the state of Israel.

00:39:50.040 And not just devoted to the state of Israel,

00:39:51.800 which is fine, 0.84

00:39:54.100 but devoted to hurting anyone who is not

00:39:57.780 and slandering them as anti-Semites.

00:40:01.400 And so he canceled this performer's appearance

00:40:04.200 at his stadium and said,

00:40:05.400 anyone who criticizes the state of Israel,

00:40:07.420 and of course he dressed it up in false language, 0.94

00:40:10.100 anti-Semites, Nazis, Jew haters, 0.99

00:40:12.320 are not allowed here. 0.98

00:40:15.400 But what's interesting about this case is that the performer he canceled,

00:40:19.460 Macklemore, had a chance to speak for himself.

00:40:23.660 So we want to read this to you.

00:40:25.160 This is what he said on stage as he criticized the state of Israel's behavior in Gaza.

00:40:30.400 And just to be clear, anyone who's not criticizing what Israel is doing in Gaza

00:40:33.660 is either lying about it, and there's some of that,

00:40:36.180 or just doesn't know anything about it, and there's a lot of that.

00:40:38.820 Most people just don't know.

00:40:39.740 but five minutes of reading about it and not just some like partisan anti-israel take on it but just

00:40:46.560 the facts which have been gathered and widely disseminated anyone who reads about it for five

00:40:51.500 minutes cannot come away defending it because there is no defense of murdering tens of thousands 0.98

00:40:55.660 of children it's always and ever we're wrong whether jewish children or catholic children 0.90

00:40:59.840 or palestinian children doesn't matter in any case before we tell you what robert craft and

00:41:07.680 various news outlets said about this performer macklemore here's what macklemore himself said

00:41:12.880 because it matters these are the words that got him canceled as a jew hater and we're going to

00:41:18.560 read them quote to all my jewish brothers and sisters criticism of israel criticism of apartheid

00:41:26.200 being against genocide in no way is a criticism of you my message is for peace love for all human

00:41:33.080 beings to be treated with dignity, respect, and equality. So I say free Palestine. I say free

00:41:38.220 Lebanon, free Cuba. He goes on. To my Jewish brothers and sisters, criticism of Israel, 1.00

00:41:43.820 criticism of apartheid, being against genocide is no way a criticism of you because, by the way,

00:41:47.940 it's not. It's not. Criticism of the behavior of a secular government is not criticism of an

00:41:57.160 entire people many of whom disapprove in fact hate what that government is doing and so don't

00:42:03.880 anyone lie to you they are not the same thing that is not jew hate despite what the ihra definition

00:42:10.720 may try to impose on you and this country's legal code they are not the same thing and so that's

00:42:18.780 what he said so for saying that we want to put on the screen how fox news characterized that watch

00:42:24.420 this. This is the headline of the story. Anti-Semitic rapper booted from performing

00:42:31.640 at Gillette Stadium over Free Palestine chant. Anti-Semitic rapper. Okay, now. Now, it's actually 0.88

00:42:40.260 worth going on here. You find yourself in middle age doing things you never thought you would do,

00:42:44.600 which is like defending political rappers on your podcast, never thought I'd be here.

00:42:49.080 but it's not a defense of any one person it's a defense of the truth of the literal meaning of

00:42:55.700 words and the intent of the words and of reason but above all it's a defense of the inalienable

00:43:01.380 right of every person to express his conscience whether you or i like it or not so the fox news

00:43:08.280 piece and not to beat up on fox news but a lot of people uncritically believe what they watch

00:43:15.040 or read and so here's how foxnews.com characterized this controversy quote

00:43:21.620 mclemore is learning the hard way that concert goers paying top dollar for stadium shows

00:43:27.260 do not want to lecture on middle eastern geopolitics from the guy who wrote thrift shop

00:43:32.160 oh okay so what does that tell you concert goers you're paid a lot for these tickets aren't

00:43:39.560 interested in macklemore's views on the middle east well we haven't pulled the topic so of course

00:43:45.300 we don't know we watched a video of his performance on stage and we noticed that the whole stadium

00:43:51.380 seemed to be cheering him as he said free palestine but what do we know we're not pollsters

00:43:55.300 what we do know is that the audience didn't make the decision and in fact there's a way to know

00:44:01.740 what the audience thinks and that's by continuing a lot to allow macklemore to perform and if he

00:44:07.800 sells tickets well presumably the audience agrees or they wouldn't be buying them but the Fox News

00:44:12.720 piece in a very kind of clever feline incredibly dishonest way frames this as a decision that the

00:44:20.380 audience made concert goers you paid high dollar for tickets don't want to hear the lecture

00:44:24.900 really they're the ones who canceled him they're the ones who said you can't perform at the stadium

00:44:30.380 oh no one billionaire made that decision and then he got on the line with a bunch of other

00:44:36.080 billionaires who also own sports teams and said, we can't let this guy perform in our stadiums.

00:44:42.020 Is that the market at work? Is it actually the market at work? That's what they're telling you,

00:44:47.700 which his stadium. Really? Well, if that's going to be the standard, let's take a close look at

00:44:52.600 how we got the stadium. Were there state or federal tax dollars involved in that? Was that

00:44:57.380 purchase in any way subsidized by the public? Yeah, I think so. Has any stadium in the last

00:45:03.060 30 years in the United States been a product of pure market capitalism? Or are they all subsidized

00:45:10.040 by taxpayers? I don't know. We're going to have to grok that one. But our guess is that every

00:45:17.920 single stadium in the United States, including Gillette Stadium, which is owned by Robert Kraft,

00:45:24.140 is subsidized by taxpayers against their will. So it's not as simple as, oh, he owns it, or any of

00:45:30.360 these people own anything and we are strongly in favor of property rights strongly and justice

00:45:36.540 but that's not what's happening here this is a veto by one guy likely against the wishes

00:45:45.880 of the overwhelming majority of the american population so don't tell me this is a product

00:45:51.440 of the market at work this is censorship by the billionaire epstein class and by the way yes he

00:45:57.680 is mentioned in the Epstein files. Look it up. So why would you defend that? You could argue

00:46:04.580 about how to fix it. Not that easy to fix, really. There are some, and if this goes on long enough,

00:46:09.880 there will be many who just call from taking the stadium away from Robert Kraft. We're not for

00:46:13.560 that. We're not for anything radical or crazy, actually. This is a hotbed of moderation. But

00:46:22.360 We can tell you that if someone doesn't move to fix the current situation where a tiny

00:46:27.840 group of totally immoral, monomaniacal people who have no actual connection to the United

00:46:33.760 States or loyalty to it or love for it and don't care at all about the founding documents 0.53

00:46:42.600 and the spirit that they express, which is of individual sovereignty, if those people

00:46:49.540 continue behaving like this, you're going to get a radical population. So maybe short term,

00:46:55.500 Robert Kraft felt like he was doing a good thing, but getting this Jew hater off stage who just

00:47:00.140 spent, you know, five minutes on stage explaining how he loves Jews, but doesn't like the behavior

00:47:04.800 of the Netanyahu government. And it's like a good thing to slander him as an anti-Semite.

00:47:10.180 But long term, it's very foolish. And it's even more foolish to defend it, as many on the so-called 0.98

00:47:16.180 right are and that raises the question what does it mean to be on the right if you're defending 0.76

00:47:21.620 censorship by billionaires who share none of your values how are you conservative and how more

00:47:30.260 precisely a year and five days after the murder of charlie kirk are you upholding his memory well

00:47:35.340 that's the question we had to ask ourselves as we saw some we know very well and still like

00:47:40.100 but who appears every day on the Charlie Kirk show

00:47:45.020 say something we found absolutely remarkable

00:47:47.700 and this is not a personal attack

00:47:49.140 and it's done with some reluctance

00:47:50.440 but you just have to say it out loud

00:47:53.300 this is where we are

00:47:54.520 we're talking about a man called Blake Neff

00:47:55.940 who worked for me for years

00:47:57.020 always liked him a lot

00:47:58.980 helped get him the job that he currently has

00:48:00.920 but there was a pretty distressing

00:48:05.120 and highly revealing

00:48:07.620 which is why we're going to talk about it

00:48:09.240 profile of him in politico recently and there's a lot in there that we're not going to get involved

00:48:15.600 with but there was a passage that we do think is worth highlighting because it tells you a lot

00:48:24.240 about the total rot at the center of the conservative movement as of september 2026

00:48:30.560 and whenever you get this kind of rot you get people who literally can't hear themselves and

00:48:37.940 don't want to be too judgmental here, because a lot has happened in the last year, a lot of

00:48:42.520 traumatic events for the staff of Turning Point, and so you always want to extend grace to them.

00:48:47.260 I've tried to do that, even as they do things I disagree with, and I know that Charlie would

00:48:50.540 vehemently disagree with, and I've been frustrated by that, but haven't said a word. But the second

00:48:56.880 that you give up on the very core of Charlie Kirk's message while continuing to occupy his studio

00:49:03.220 under his name, I think it's important to say something, so that's what we're doing now.

00:49:06.460 so i want to read this to you this is a profile of blake neff from politico neff confessed to

00:49:12.820 grappling in a roundabout way with the possibility that his maximalist position on free speech

00:49:18.260 has helped foster the conditions that have allowed rank conspiracism to flourish i've reflected on

00:49:25.100 this often he said sipping a s'mores flavored cold brew on a leather couch in the studio's

00:49:29.540 green room so let's just stop right there a maximalist position on free speech and this is

00:49:34.260 By the way, that's not a Blake Neff quote, just to be completely fair, and we want to be fair.

00:49:38.900 That's the anti-free speech Politico author Ian Ward's kind of clever framing here.

00:49:49.220 But it's very common, maximalist position.

00:49:51.520 Well, there's no maximalist position on free speech any more than there is on pregnancy. 0.56

00:49:56.360 You either are for it, or you are pregnant, or you're not.

00:49:59.900 Free speech means acknowledging the inherent right of your fellow citizens, whether or not you like

00:50:05.140 them, to say what they really think, period. And if what they really think is repugnant to you,

00:50:11.040 and if they have some version of events that you consider a poisonous conspiracy theory,

00:50:15.180 there's not really anything you can do about it. In fact, there's literally nothing you can do

00:50:18.280 about it under our system, and I would also argue under Christian precepts, other than rebut it

00:50:26.660 and offer a competing vision

00:50:28.920 that is more compelling to listeners.

00:50:30.360 That's it.

00:50:31.120 As Charlie Kirk said at the outset of this segment,

00:50:33.860 more speech.

00:50:35.620 But that's not the conclusion

00:50:37.380 that many on the right are coming to.

00:50:40.040 Now, why?

00:50:41.580 Probably because they spend way too much time

00:50:43.300 on social media

00:50:44.120 and they read every attack on themselves

00:50:46.160 and they get more paranoid.

00:50:48.660 In fact, they become kind of a version

00:50:50.400 of what they claim to hate,

00:50:51.320 which is conspiracy nuts.

00:50:52.700 But they get completely overheated.

00:50:54.540 They feel like they're at war.

00:50:55.660 i'm at war never seen war of course they think they're at war they think they're under attack

00:51:02.860 and bit by bit it completely corrodes their decency but also their sense of proportion

00:51:10.480 and they wind up abandoning the principles they're there to uphold so as they sit day

00:51:18.000 after day underneath the sign that says charlie kirk on it they wind up with views like this

00:51:23.160 and we're going to read this and we're quoting this is blake neff the guy in the charlie kirk

00:51:27.160 show we got what we wanted on speech and that means we also have to endure a lot of things

00:51:32.960 that were tamped down on before neff sees only two potential paths forward this is a verbatim

00:51:37.500 quote either we have to make our peace with censorship and explain how we're going to do that

00:51:43.360 or we have to explain how we're going to combat this without censorship period but we've got to

00:51:50.000 confront it. And that's the point at which you just feel like, well, we're done. We may have to

00:51:59.560 make our peace with censorship. How would we do that? It's like saying, well, you know, I'm really

00:52:04.320 mad. We may have to make our peace with genocide. We may have to kill, you know, didn't ever think

00:52:09.040 I'd say it. Didn't ever think I'd be here. We're going to have to kill them all. Maybe there's 0.66

00:52:12.800 another way to do it. But it's possible we might have to make our peace with murdering all their

00:52:18.120 kids just because it's that important. It's that bad. Didn't ever think we'd come to this place, 0.75

00:52:23.640 but here we are. So we're going to think about it. No, you can never make your peace

00:52:31.060 with turning other people into slaves. You can never be the slave master because

00:52:40.740 because slavery is bad for them, but it's even worse for you. It is totally dehumanizing to

00:52:48.420 everyone involved to turn other human beings into something that is less than a human being,

00:52:54.600 and that is exactly what censorship does each and every time. So even to float that possibility

00:53:01.280 that you could, quote, make your peace with it, there will be no peace with censorship. You can't

00:53:06.720 have peace with censorship because you are suppressing by definition what people believe

00:53:12.520 is true so if you want to eliminate if you want to forestall even the possibility of peace

00:53:17.580 try to impose censorship it's an oxymoron make your peace with censorship

00:53:24.080 but that's where we are because people have lost any sense at all of what the principles

00:53:33.000 the ones that actually matter are and to restate those principles are not don't hurt other people's

00:53:39.400 feelings or tell truths that billionaires don't like those truths are respect the inherent the

00:53:46.320 god-given dignity within every person and that dignity is expressed through their ability to say

00:53:53.020 what they think not what you think other people have no obligation to repeat back what you think

00:53:59.500 they have an inherent right to say what they think because their interests and their dignity

00:54:05.060 and their humanity is every bit as important and every bit equal to yours and even on the

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00:58:02.480 the loss of principle. Meanwhile, we thought it'd be interesting to speak to someone who has been

00:58:07.000 historically on the other side of political debates from us. She has been for 19 years a host on

00:58:15.340 probably the most famous left-wing podcast, one of the very first left-wing podcasts in the world,

00:58:25.000 the Young Turks. And that's Anna Kasparian, who we just spoke to a moment ago. Here she is.

00:58:31.220 Anna Kasparian, thank you so much for doing this. Do you think we have free speech in the United

00:58:34.920 States as of now? I think it would be wrong to say that we have free speech, considering the

00:58:42.280 fact that we literally have the majority of our states passing laws that would punish American

00:58:48.200 citizens or organizations that are critical of Israel by denying them any public money or public

00:58:54.220 grant. That's clearly a violation of our constitutional rights because it's literally

00:58:59.420 the government getting involved and violating our freedom of expression. So no, at this current

00:59:04.900 moment, I would not say that we actually fully have free speech here in the United States.

00:59:09.880 Yes. There's a way, though, that free speech is not just defined as the Constitution defines it,

00:59:16.020 which is a system where the government stays neutral on speech, but also on a practical level,

00:59:22.020 if you are punished by organizations by saying denying you a job or housing or a right to a bank

00:59:29.780 account or a right to live peacefully in your own home then like in what sense do you have free

00:59:36.340 speech well i mean that's true uh now the argument is that if you are engaging in certain speech

00:59:43.540 you can't expect that it comes without consequence that's right that you that you should expect a

00:59:48.520 response that you might not like to that speech. And, you know, the big argument that you'll hear

00:59:53.720 from those defending, say, Robert Kraft today would argue, well, Robert Kraft is the billionaire

01:00:01.220 who owns the Gillette Stadium and he gets to decide what type of musical acts are able to

01:00:07.000 perform there. OK, I guess that's a fair point to make. But why don't we take a step back and

01:00:11.760 look at how this intermingles with our democratic process? Because if I can recall several years

01:00:18.300 ago, you had the world's elites getting together at the World Economic Forum to note that their

01:00:24.720 plan moving forward is to ensure that no one owns anything. In fact, all of us will just have to rent

01:00:30.900 things. So there will be the owners who own the property and then the rest of us. And so if we're

01:00:37.360 going to base free speech rights on property owners, the wealthy elite being able to squash

01:00:46.640 free speech because they happen to own things and we don't? Is that really a fair and just society?

01:00:51.780 And do we have the economic conditions on the ground to ensure that there's a level playing

01:00:55.740 field? So if one billionaire decides, no, I'm going to crush you because I don't like your

01:01:00.720 comments about a foreign country, are we going to have other opportunities or other platforms,

01:01:05.560 other means to put our work out into the world? That's the real question here. Yeah.

01:01:11.340 Yeah. Well, and in some way, I mean, the nature of our economy has changed. The economic structure

01:01:16.720 of the United States has changed. Obviously, there's much more concentration at the top.

01:01:20.660 But the truth is, rich people have always run this in every other country. I just think we

01:01:24.740 have a different kind of rich people. Previous generations of oligarchs felt like, well,

01:01:30.260 everybody has a right to say what he thinks. And if I disagree with you, I've got some obligation

01:01:35.480 to explain why and make a counter case. I don't see that gracefulness at all in evidence now.

01:01:41.760 It seems like our current leadership class, the current oligarchs who run everything,

01:01:46.860 just decide, like, if I disagree with you, I don't have to explain why. I don't have to convince

01:01:50.200 people that you're wrong and I'm right. I can just crush you and that's enough. 0.99

01:01:54.480 Well, there used to be a middleman, I guess, and that middleman used to be our government,

01:01:59.760 The government would step in and provide protections or defend ordinary people. And I'm worried about the lack of will among our political elite to do what they know is the right thing to do in serving the American people.

01:02:15.600 I mean, these are people who signed up to be public servants, yet all they do is serve moneyed interests who bribe them during their campaigns. And so just to give you one example, and I know you've been very critical of FDR, but not for the reason that I'm about to describe.

01:02:30.980 you know fdr was savvy enough to realize that following the great depression uh communism

01:02:37.740 socialism was on the rise and he very much wanted to protect a capitalistic society so he realized

01:02:44.540 if i don't step in and implement some of these economic policies that will help improve the

01:02:51.220 quality of life for ordinary american workers we're headed toward socialism we're headed toward

01:02:56.300 communism and he didn't want that. And so it is same with Henry Ford. I mean, Henry Ford was the

01:03:03.460 CEO who decided, you know what? It makes sense to give them my workers the weekends off. It makes

01:03:09.700 sense for me to pay them enough money to be able to afford Ford vehicles. Like these are people who

01:03:16.380 don't just think about their personal benefits and what benefits them in the short term. They have

01:03:21.740 long-term goals that goes beyond their own self-indulgence. And we just don't have much

01:03:28.580 of that right now, either in our political elite or certainly not among the billionaire oligarchs

01:03:34.460 who we're unfortunately being ruled by right now. Yeah. There's not a lot of longitudinal

01:03:38.840 thinking. It seems like there's a kind of a day trade worldview in force. So you've always been

01:03:46.820 on the left or the progressive left. I don't think you're much of a Republican voter.

01:03:51.740 um and or haven't been anyway uh i think it's fair to say but i noticed that i think it's

01:03:56.880 complicated it's complicated it's complicated right well it's complicated for everybody

01:04:00.940 all of a sudden so i'm with you on the complexity but i on the question of free speech so i saw the

01:04:07.340 biden administration as totally opposed to free speech they're pressuring social media companies

01:04:11.620 to shut down people's accounts for disagreeing with them on covid or lots of other topics and

01:04:17.220 And I really believe that the Trump coalition was put there in part to defend free speech,

01:04:22.580 free expression, free exchange of ideas, including those you disagree with.

01:04:26.220 And yet it seems like a lot of its leaders pivoted almost immediately to a Biden like

01:04:32.340 position on speech where if I don't like you, I'm going to cancel you when they had just

01:04:38.560 run against what they call cancel culture like 20 minutes before.

01:04:41.460 Am I imagining that?

01:04:43.260 No, you're not imagining it.

01:04:44.440 And the fact of the matter is, regardless of which political side is doing it, and both

01:04:48.500 political sides do it, it's an attempt to hide something from the public, information

01:04:56.140 that they don't want the public knowing about.

01:04:57.920 And I think a big red flag, especially from the government, is when they say they're doing

01:05:03.700 something in the name of safety.

01:05:06.080 So in the case of the Biden administration, we want to keep you safe.

01:05:10.320 We don't want you to get COVID disinformation.

01:05:12.760 in the case of the Trump administration.

01:05:15.920 And by the way, also to some extent with Biden

01:05:18.160 on the Israel issue, there were efforts

01:05:21.500 and have been efforts to essentially say

01:05:24.060 we got to keep our Jewish community safe.

01:05:26.800 As a result of that, we can't let you say certain things

01:05:30.180 that are critical of the Israeli government,

01:05:32.140 which obviously makes no sense. 0.98

01:05:33.800 And we shouldn't be conflating the Jewish population

01:05:35.760 with a foreign country. 0.88

01:05:37.320 But Israel likes to hide behind human shields

01:05:40.500 in their own way.

01:05:41.520 So they intentionally make that conflation. But yeah, the word safety, once you hear the word

01:05:47.500 safety, and by the way, I've seen every political faction use similar arguments, even on the far

01:05:52.620 left, you know, stifling free speech on college campuses in some cases because students feel

01:05:59.060 unsafe. And I'm sorry, in that particular context, you are going to an institution to learn,

01:06:07.700 obviously, but also to be made uncomfortable. Like you're not growing, you're not learning

01:06:12.420 until you're actually being confronted with ideas that challenge your own.

01:06:17.640 Sure. And it's also a misread of the human condition. You're never safe. I mean,

01:06:21.460 the future is not assured and resistance to your narcissism is just like a fact of life

01:06:27.500 for everybody. And it ought to be, and that's how you become an adult, right? I mean, of course.

01:06:31.780 So you actually want confrontation because it draws you out of your own stupid little 1.00

01:06:37.440 universe. 1.00

01:06:38.700 But I just wonder if the left did it with cancel culture and wokeness or whatever you

01:06:45.260 want to call it, but that whole movement that we suffered through for so many years, and

01:06:48.740 now the right is doing exactly the same thing.

01:06:51.100 They just picked a different victim. 0.96

01:06:52.440 It was black people. 0.99

01:06:53.220 Now it's Jewish people. 1.00

01:06:54.400 It'll be somebody else. 0.99

01:06:55.400 It's always a cover for protecting the people in charge.

01:06:58.620 Then like who actually will defend free speech?

01:07:01.780 well there have always been very loud voices that have been consistent on protecting free

01:07:08.760 speech you know glenn greenwald happens to be one of them he's undeterred in that mission and in

01:07:13.900 fact the one area where he and i might have a disagreement on free speech is whether or not

01:07:18.920 corporations are considered people with protected speech and thus can provide unlimited campaign

01:07:26.580 bribes to politicians like he has defended that supreme court ruling i have a different perspective

01:07:31.460 on that. But in terms of in actual individuals practicing their free speech, he's always been

01:07:36.580 consistent. And whether the cancel culture proponents like it or not, we do still have

01:07:44.480 constitutional rights. And if someone is willing to take some issue to the court, I do believe that

01:07:50.960 the courts tend to side appropriately based on what our constitutional rights happen to be.

01:07:56.260 But that can be a costly way of pushing back and defending your free rights. And it becomes an even

01:08:01.440 bigger problem when, again, you literally have the government on a state-by-state case

01:08:07.760 passing laws. I mean, Ron DeSantis, the governor of Florida, literally went to Florida to sign

01:08:15.880 state legislation that made it clear, if you're criticizing Israel, we're not going to give you

01:08:20.760 any government money, no grants for you. Or even if it's a government institution, we're going to

01:08:25.480 strip you of your funding. That's ridiculous, especially since this has to do with criticizing

01:08:30.100 a foreign country. 0.96

01:08:31.480 You can criticize our country 1.00

01:08:33.020 as much as you want,

01:08:33.900 and I like that.

01:08:34.760 That's what we should have.

01:08:36.640 But we shouldn't have

01:08:37.460 certain protections 1.00

01:08:38.200 for a foreign country

01:08:39.900 that violate our free speech rights. 0.98

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01:12:10.160 My sense is it's a very anti-democratic,

01:12:13.140 small d democratic move too,

01:12:14.480 because i think most people hate this when you see aoc thinking about running for president get

01:12:19.960 up and admit like wokeness was went too far it was bad what she's really saying is secretly

01:12:25.140 everybody kind of hated that and you know it takes a few years for people to admit it because

01:12:30.260 people are due benefit from shutting down public conversations about this or that but like ordinary

01:12:35.420 people hate it and now she has to admit that very few people are admitting that now about our current

01:12:40.680 explosion of identity politics around Israel. But my sense is that deep down,

01:12:46.020 though, they may be afraid to say it. Most people really resent this. Do you think that?

01:12:49.920 Oh, I absolutely. I know for a fact that people resent it, but people are terrified.

01:12:54.760 I know. And for me, the reason why I'm a loud mouth about things like this is because I know

01:13:01.520 that when people see an individual public figure go out there unafraid to just say what needs to

01:13:09.400 be said it kind of gives them permission it gives them a little more comfort to come out and say

01:13:13.520 what they want to say and we do need to foster that kind of environment and i can't emphasize

01:13:18.340 this enough we can't give the censorious people regardless of where they fall on the political

01:13:24.960 spectrum or on the issue of israel we cannot give them an inch under any circumstance so like for me

01:13:30.980 when they come at you with a bad faith allegation the left falls for this almost every time and i'm

01:13:38.900 trying to get them to like think a little more savvy uh they're not looking for an apology and

01:13:44.200 in fact if you do apologize when you haven't really said anything wrong to begin with they

01:13:48.860 see that as an admission of guilt so don't give them an inch don't play their game don't play

01:13:53.880 their game as long as what you actually said wasn't coming from a place of hate where you're

01:13:59.000 trying to get people hurt you're just sharing your perspective on something don't let the bad

01:14:04.680 faith actors convince you that maybe apologizing will make like this crazy mob go away the mob is

01:14:10.580 not going to go away unless you ignore them and double down in fact so well you've you yeah you

01:14:18.480 got a congressional medal of honor for you for that i mean that's definitely the way you approach

01:14:22.960 it and god bless you for that graham plattner what just happened to the political candidate in

01:14:28.460 the state of maine graham plattner earlier this year seems like a pretty good example of what

01:14:33.220 you're describing? Now that we've had a month or two to assess it, what was that, do you think?

01:14:40.160 Well, okay. So let me back up and give you my perspective on Grant Plattner and the entirety

01:14:46.560 of his campaign. So I'm in a kind of black-pilled place in life where the midterms are coming and

01:14:54.660 everyone thinks it's like, oh, it's going to make all the difference. It's not going to make all

01:14:57.820 the difference our political system's broken and i don't really have a dog in this fight believe it

01:15:03.680 or not so when gram platner came on the scene i'm like same old same old yes you're gonna do all

01:15:08.080 these wonderful things for working class americans i don't believe anybody okay fair and then the

01:15:12.420 tattoo thing happened you know and i side-eyed him because i'm like how do you have like he at

01:15:18.720 some point he realized the tattoo he got the skull and bones he realized that it was like a nazi

01:15:23.640 symbol. He even admitted that. And then he kept it on his person for years until he ran for Congress

01:15:30.040 and it became an issue. I thought that was weird, but whatever. For me, it's not disqualifying

01:15:35.000 necessarily. I just didn't buy his story. Final thing, though, was the allegation of forcible

01:15:41.420 rape, which I understand when someone has been raped and they're terrified to go to the authorities

01:15:49.760 because sometimes it ends up backfiring when you go to the authorities. It's insult to injury,

01:15:56.380 and you go through a terrible time. If you don't have hard evidence, people are going to deny you

01:16:00.700 or blame you. It's awful. So I can understand that. But the woman who accused him of forcible

01:16:07.280 rape, who she had been dating for two years, by the way, decided, I'm not going to go to the

01:16:13.440 authorities after he allegedly forcibly raped me i'm just gonna come out and talk about it in public

01:16:20.620 as the you know primary for platner's you know race approaches thus forcing him to drop out and

01:16:29.160 then we never heard from her again did she ever go to the authorities is she comfortable with the

01:16:33.640 fact that um if in fact she was allegedly raped by graham platner well now he's free to go wherever

01:16:40.380 he wants to go do whatever he wants to do and potentially rape someone else exactly and so for

01:16:45.240 me tucker i think the reason why she didn't go to the authorities and instead came out and told

01:16:50.800 the entire world about what allegedly happened is because i don't believe it actually happened

01:16:54.780 i just don't and the reporting on it uh intentionally omitted details that i think

01:17:01.140 the public should have known about you think right namely the fact that she sends him a

01:17:05.920 the way their interaction started that night she sends him a text message about how she needs a

01:17:10.820 glute massage but they omitted that from the reporting I just to me it looks like a fishy

01:17:17.900 story to say the glute being the butt muscles yes yeah pretty provocative text I mean look I

01:17:23.840 wasn't there you know I wasn't dating Graham Plattner I don't know but that seems that seems

01:17:29.380 like a relevant detail to me here's my take on it was less sophisticated than yours but i was just

01:17:36.520 trying to take a big picture assessment so here's a guy who's who's clearly going to beat susan

01:17:41.240 collins one of the most mediocre she's a joke of course susan collins um probably not an evil

01:17:48.080 person but like susan collins come on now he's gonna beat her he's a conventional democrat in

01:17:53.780 some ways but the big issue in which he disagrees with his party's leadership is israel and he just

01:17:58.940 says it he's like what's happening in Gaza is a crime because it is a crime and it's that issue

01:18:04.720 that torpedoes his candidacy because his own party including the state party in Maine turns against

01:18:11.900 him on orders from their donors that that seemed to be what happened to me but maybe I'm missing

01:18:17.420 something I mean if you do take a step back and you look at the specific candidates who have been

01:18:23.900 hounded and treated poorly throughout their primaries and even after they won their primaries

01:18:29.520 you'll notice that there is a through line and that through line is

01:18:32.780 criticism of israel criticism of u.s financial support for israel's wars genocides atrocities

01:18:42.660 things like that and um you can't argue that you want to be a public servant who genuinely believes

01:18:48.900 in an America first agenda when you're okay with doing things like merging the IDF with the US

01:18:55.480 military or continuing this like gravy train that we can't afford. We like, we are literally going

01:19:02.820 deeper and deeper and deeper into debt in order to pay for Israel's weapons. Trump just signed

01:19:07.980 off on another $3 billion for 2000 pound bombs for Israel. They're not even paying for it. We're

01:19:14.540 going to go into debt to provide it for them. And that is an injustice. And these are the types of

01:19:19.320 things they don't want us talking about. They want us to shut up. There is nothing in my commentary

01:19:23.660 right now that even touches on the Jewish identity. It's about morality. It's about

01:19:31.080 finite resources. It's about doing what's right for the American people as a member of the

01:19:37.440 political class. And somehow that is considered incredibly outrageous, dangerous, and offensive

01:19:44.340 to say. And other candidates who have said things like this tend to be the ones who are targeted

01:19:49.500 maniacally by people like Laura Loomer, who, by the way, last June, I don't know if people know 0.55

01:19:55.340 this, was bitching about the fact that not enough Americans hate Muslims. So maybe we need another 0.88

01:20:01.900 9-11. Yeah. So what does that make you think when somebody who's a very powerful player for some

01:20:13.100 reason at this moment within our political process calls for another 9-11. I mean, that

01:20:18.220 seems like an extraordinary thing to say. Not only is it extraordinary, I think

01:20:28.140 the bigger picture, I think the overarching issue that I'm struggling with

01:20:35.600 is what is my identity? Because I've always identified as American. I've always identified

01:20:42.060 find it as American, right? Like I love this country. I want to defend this country. I want

01:20:45.560 to live here for the rest of my life. My family, my brother is raising his four kids here. I want

01:20:50.580 them to thrive. I want everyone to thrive. But there are so many different things happening

01:20:54.460 simultaneously right now, Tucker, that makes me think, oh my God, like we are surrounded by people

01:20:59.380 who don't really see this as their country. Like they just, it's like a commuter country. Like you

01:21:06.540 come in, you take what you need, and then you go. And so when you have someone like Laura Loomer

01:21:12.000 saying, maybe we need another 9-11, disgusting. Okay. When you see the willingness of our 0.56

01:21:18.540 lawmakers to sell out our own country, put us deeper and deeper into debt on behalf of a foreign

01:21:23.600 country, it just feels like everything here is being exploited for other purposes. And I'm angry

01:21:32.860 about it and i know other americans are angry about it elaine chow elaine chow turns out to 0.98

01:21:37.740 have worked for the chinese government while serving in the the trump administration that

01:21:44.380 was a huge story that was uh broken by the daily caller i just reported on it yesterday on our show

01:21:48.980 how is that okay how is that okay two-time cabinet secretary in two separate administrations

01:21:56.000 her husband was senate majority leader and she's working for china and of course there'll be there

01:22:01.720 will never be any attempt to hold elaine chow accountable for that ever it's crazy but at least

01:22:07.980 i guess here's the the the point of my thoughts today on this specific topic at least we can still

01:22:14.080 acknowledge it report the truth about it try to call other people's attention to it rally support

01:22:20.320 for some kind of solution to it that's why speech is important and i just wonder given that all of

01:22:27.180 our conversations take place digitally and the digital platforms are owned by people who clearly

01:22:31.200 you're not committed to the concept of free speech. How long does this last?

01:22:37.700 I don't know, but I'm not going to stop. I'm not going to stop. And I'm willing to,

01:22:43.700 I mean, there have already been consequences for me personally, and I haven't stopped and I'm

01:22:47.340 going to keep going. Because the ability to express yourself is one of the most precious

01:22:53.500 rights that we have in this country. And I don't think that we should give it up willy-nilly.

01:22:59.060 I think some people have been willing to do that.

01:23:01.660 But honestly, if it takes sacrificing potentially everything, I'm going to keep speaking my

01:23:08.380 mind.

01:23:08.860 Yes.

01:23:09.160 I know no other way.

01:23:10.200 It's torture to not be able to speak your mind.

01:23:12.220 I can't imagine living in that type of society.

01:23:15.200 So look, there are consequences already.

01:23:18.060 Luckily, I work for Cenk Uygur, and Cenk Uygur really does believe in free speech.

01:23:21.780 Yes, he does.

01:23:22.860 You know, we have some big fights on the show time to time, and he's never once retaliated against me because we disagree.

01:23:29.420 And I just love that I'm lucky enough to work for him.

01:23:33.120 But even if he ended up firing me for speaking my mind, where there's a will, there's a way.

01:23:38.560 And if it means that I have to do menial work to make ends meet in order to continue being able to speak my mind, I'm going to keep speaking my mind.

01:23:46.660 But here's what I would say to the audience, because this is really important.

01:23:50.280 how about we don't give in to these people anymore how about we have each other's backs

01:23:55.920 as americans yes you get what i'm saying oh yes so like the whole macklemore debacle i think the

01:24:02.860 way that that played out was kind of fantastic because there's a lot of rage among americans

01:24:08.180 who don't think he said anything wrong even jesse waters he's like what did he said free

01:24:12.440 palestine i don't think that's hate speech and so people having macklemore's back and in fact

01:24:19.380 Ed Sheeran, being a coward in this scenario, has now lost like half a million followers on social

01:24:26.480 media because he didn't stand up for what was right. And so I love to see that. Let's do more

01:24:31.680 of that. Let's have each other's backs because you're not just defending one person, you're

01:24:35.740 defending the whole concept of freedom of expression. Amen. Boy. And on that note,

01:24:41.400 thank you. Thank you for everything you've done to preserve and expand the boundaries

01:24:46.300 of speech at cost to yourself and i i really think you'll be whatever you're going through

01:24:51.380 now i think you'll be rewarded for it in the end i believe that so anna casperian thank you so much

01:24:56.040 thanks tucker

The Tucker Carlson Show - September 17, 2026

Tucker on Macklemore’s Cancellation and the So-Called “Conservatives” Championing Censorship

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