TRIGGERnometry - Conversations with My Father - USSR, Communism and Modern Russia

00:00:00.000 I love shopping for new jackets and boots this season, and when I do, I always make sure I get cash back with Rakuten.

00:00:06.900 And it's not just fashion. You can earn cash back on electronics, beauty, travel, and more at stores like Sephora, Old Navy, and Expedia.

00:00:14.640 It's so easy to save that I always shop through Rakuten.

00:00:17.680 Join for free at rakuten.ca and get your cash back by Interacte Transfer, PayPal, or check.

00:00:22.980 Download the Rakuten app or sign up at rakuten.ca. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N dot C-A.

00:00:30.320 You're about to watch a conversation with one of the most intelligent, knowledgeable, and fascinating people I know, my father.

00:00:37.860 He's had a remarkable life, too. By his mid-twenties, he was making vaccines and then working at a Soviet nuclear facility.

00:00:44.760 By age 30, he was a successful businessman who was recruited into the Russian government.

00:00:49.340 The department in which he was a junior minister was tasked specifically with rebuilding the Soviet Union.

00:00:54.780 By age 35, he was living abroad and on the run under a cloud of false charges,

00:00:59.320 stemming from political disagreements over the direction of Russia.

00:01:03.280 Today, in his early 60s, exonerated of all the false allegations,

00:01:07.680 he spends his time thinking and writing about history, geopolitics, the battle of civilizations, mysticism, and a lot more.

00:01:14.920 My dad and I have different opinions on many things, but we've always been able to talk about anything, including our differences.

00:01:21.160 At points, the conversation was difficult, as we see the world from different perspectives,

00:01:26.540 especially when it comes to Vladimir Putin, the war in Ukraine, and Russian foreign policy.

00:01:32.100 But I think that itself will be illuminating.

00:01:35.020 Across the three interviews in total, we talked about him growing up in the Soviet Union,

00:01:39.960 why communism is a religion, how the USSR fell apart,

00:01:45.000 why America today reminds him of communist days in the Soviet Union,

00:01:49.340 his views of COVID and COVID vaccines as someone who used to make flu vaccines,

00:01:53.860 the crazy 90s in Russia that he lived through,

00:01:56.900 why Russians, according to him, won't trust the West for at least two generations,

00:02:01.620 how he went from being a scientist to co-founding one of modern Russia's first banks,

00:02:06.540 why he went into politics in the first place,

00:02:09.760 the power struggles he saw and was part of in the Yeltsin government,

00:02:13.560 why he believed in attempting to rebuild the Soviet Union after it collapsed,

00:02:18.320 how, according to him, pro-Western forces destroyed his government department

00:02:22.260 and forced him to flee the country,

00:02:24.780 why he respects Vladimir Putin,

00:02:27.200 the history of Russia,

00:02:29.020 Arnold Toynbee and the Battle of Civilizations,

00:02:31.900 why the war in Ukraine was inevitable, according to him,

00:02:34.760 was Russia provoked? That's a debate that we have.

00:02:37.940 Will Russia stop at Ukraine?

00:02:39.440 That's another conversation that's very popular in the West.

00:02:42.380 Can humanity even survive the Battle of Civilizations in the Nuclear Age?

00:02:46.820 The future of the Middle East,

00:02:48.740 Lev Gumilov's theory of ethnic group dynamics,

00:02:51.700 what is happening to modern Western civilization?

00:02:54.780 Mysticism,

00:02:55.680 his model of how societies are made up of four different groups

00:02:58.600 whose values determine their attitudes and behaviors,

00:03:01.140 why societies went from being run by priests and holy men

00:03:05.120 to being run by warriors and commanders

00:03:07.100 to now being run by businessmen,

00:03:08.840 how to work out your life's purpose,

00:03:11.080 why the scientific method is important but not sufficient,

00:03:14.160 according to him, for understanding reality.

00:03:16.160 Will science ever answer questions about the origin of the universe,

00:03:19.980 life and consciousness?

00:03:21.700 Does God exist?

00:03:23.160 Non-scientific tools for understanding the world.

00:03:25.980 The first part focuses on my father's life growing up in the Soviet Union,

00:03:29.960 the collapse of the USSR,

00:03:31.880 communism,

00:03:32.740 his journey into business and then politics in Russia,

00:03:36.040 eventually being forced to leave Russia under a cloud of false accusations.

00:03:40.360 In the second part,

00:03:41.480 we focus on history,

00:03:43.180 theories about geopolitics and tribal dynamics,

00:03:46.560 as well as Lev Gumilov's theory of ethnic group dynamics and a lot more.

00:03:50.900 And in the final part,

00:03:52.040 we talk about his model for understanding the world

00:03:54.480 through different groups in society

00:03:56.440 and how their attitudes and approaches are determined

00:03:59.080 by the type of roles that they play.

00:04:01.100 We also talk about mysticism.

00:04:02.960 We talk about God,

00:04:04.520 the existence of scientific explanations

00:04:06.420 or lack thereof for certain important things and more.

00:04:11.480 Dad, I'm glad we can have this conversation

00:04:14.480 because when I tell people even a fragment of your life story,

00:04:18.460 first, no one believes me,

00:04:21.000 especially in the West.

00:04:22.620 And second,

00:04:23.960 if they do believe me,

00:04:25.640 they're absolutely stunned.

00:04:27.980 They get surprised,

00:04:29.400 to put it mildly.

00:04:30.360 Yes,

00:04:30.980 to put it very mildly.

00:04:32.700 To live through so many events,

00:04:35.920 cataclysms and truly historic periods

00:04:38.940 on the course of one life

00:04:40.600 is very unusual.

00:04:42.380 So I'm glad we are going to have this conversation.

00:04:45.560 You know the Chinese proverb, right?

00:04:48.160 May you live in interesting times.

00:04:50.580 That's exactly what you did?

00:04:51.880 Yes.

00:04:52.660 You lived through a period of rapid change

00:04:55.240 and in your own life and your career,

00:04:57.800 you were involved in these changes.

00:04:59.440 So we'll have a fascinating conversation

00:05:02.740 about the Soviet Union,

00:05:04.540 its transformation into modern Russia.

00:05:08.040 We'll then have a separate conversation

00:05:10.140 about your political and geopolitical views.

00:05:14.180 And finally,

00:05:14.820 all things esoteric.

00:05:16.460 But let's start at the beginning of your life story.

00:05:18.980 You were born in 1962 in the Soviet Union.

00:05:21.880 On the 12th of April,

00:05:24.000 the first celebration of Cosmonauts' Day,

00:05:27.000 a year after Yuri Gagarin first went into space.

00:05:31.040 What can you tell people

00:05:32.280 who weren't born in that society

00:05:33.960 and never even saw it

00:05:35.720 about what it was like,

00:05:37.680 the 60s and 70s in the USSR?

00:05:40.520 You know,

00:05:41.540 when you're a child,

00:05:44.100 you take everything you experience as a given.

00:05:47.480 So I'll try to explain how I saw everything.

00:05:53.360 Today,

00:05:54.980 as someone who's a lot older,

00:05:57.860 I can say we were a fairly poor family,

00:06:01.340 especially given that my parents got divorced

00:06:05.760 when I was around three

00:06:07.620 and were no longer living together.

00:06:11.480 My mother lived with my grandmother

00:06:14.240 and great-grandmother.

00:06:17.000 That is,

00:06:17.720 with my father's mother and grandmother.

00:06:21.040 The four of us lived in a two-room apartment

00:06:24.080 on my mother's salary.

00:06:28.620 It was enough,

00:06:30.080 but only just,

00:06:31.240 no luxuries.

00:06:32.220 What was it enough for?

00:06:33.640 Enough

00:06:34.200 to eat,

00:06:37.020 to sometimes,

00:06:38.680 very rarely,

00:06:40.440 buy something we needed,

00:06:42.520 like clothes.

00:06:43.340 We didn't have a lot of choice

00:06:45.960 in terms of clothing.

00:06:48.440 It was very modest.

00:06:50.520 At that time,

00:06:51.440 people in the Soviet Union

00:06:53.180 mended clothes and footwear.

00:06:57.300 If something ripped,

00:06:59.600 we'd get it stitched.

00:07:03.640 If something cracked,

00:07:06.000 we'd take it to have it repaired,

00:07:08.980 to have the shoe leather replaced.

00:07:11.700 That's how we lived,

00:07:14.940 repairing clothes and footwear.

00:07:18.100 You went to school age seven?

00:07:20.220 Yes.

00:07:20.640 So it was in the late 60s?

00:07:23.580 Say 69.

00:07:25.880 I was at school from 1969

00:07:28.320 through to 1979.

00:07:31.420 At that time,

00:07:32.600 did you have the sense

00:07:33.860 that you lived in a country

00:07:35.100 that was trying to build communism,

00:07:36.760 that Lenin was everything,

00:07:40.600 and so on?

00:07:41.680 By this point,

00:07:43.460 there were already

00:07:44.440 a lot of jokes about this,

00:07:47.880 because it was a period,

00:07:50.120 I mean,

00:07:51.000 after Stalin's death,

00:07:53.460 the Khrushchev period

00:07:54.920 was a period of decline.

00:07:56.980 Stalin was far from ideal,

00:08:04.100 but when he was in charge,

00:08:06.400 there was order,

00:08:07.660 and anyone who tried

00:08:09.020 to break the law

00:08:10.140 would be ground into dust immediately.

00:08:14.660 But when Khrushchev came to power,

00:08:19.260 it was prohibited

00:08:20.540 to prosecute

00:08:22.480 or even investigate

00:08:24.580 senior communists.

00:08:27.240 The people at the top

00:08:28.780 became effectively exempt

00:08:30.760 from the law.

00:08:32.420 So the leadership

00:08:34.220 was starting to decompose

00:08:36.120 by this point?

00:08:37.280 Not the people

00:08:38.400 at the very top,

00:08:39.640 they were still ideological,

00:08:41.700 but the people in the middle,

00:08:43.180 the people

00:08:44.580 who would have been shot

00:08:46.100 under Stalin

00:08:46.840 for stealing

00:08:48.380 or abuse of power

00:08:49.780 were immune

00:08:51.560 from prosecution

00:08:53.280 under Khrushchev.

00:08:54.860 So there was

00:08:55.640 a growing sense

00:08:56.840 of disorder.

00:08:58.160 It was a kind of decline

00:08:59.760 in my view.

00:09:01.060 So by the time

00:09:02.200 I became aware

00:09:03.860 of the society

00:09:05.140 I was living in,

00:09:08.860 from age five onwards,

00:09:11.680 1967,

00:09:13.180 it was still

00:09:15.000 a socialist society,

00:09:18.740 but not entirely.

00:09:21.920 But I remember

00:09:23.040 that when I was small,

00:09:24.480 so in the 80s,

00:09:26.080 you and mum

00:09:26.900 tried to keep me

00:09:27.980 out of being

00:09:28.540 a little octobrist,

00:09:29.920 young pioneer,

00:09:31.280 and so on.

00:09:32.300 I don't remember that,

00:09:33.420 to be honest.

00:09:34.020 I was a little octobrist,

00:09:36.080 young pioneer,

00:09:37.500 and Komsomolets,

00:09:38.780 and I am not worried

00:09:40.040 about it.

00:09:40.660 I understand.

00:09:41.940 But you did your best

00:09:42.980 to keep me away from it.

00:09:44.800 Anyway,

00:09:45.400 in your childhood,

00:09:46.480 it was something

00:09:47.040 everyone went through.

00:09:47.900 Well,

00:09:48.580 not quite.

00:09:52.040 Everyone became

00:09:53.320 a little octobrist.

00:09:56.100 It was simple.

00:09:58.520 In grade two,

00:09:59.600 you'd be given a badge

00:10:01.120 and told you,

00:10:03.180 we're now

00:10:04.100 a little octobrist

00:10:05.940 in a society

00:10:07.480 where everyone understood

00:10:08.740 what that meant.

00:10:09.560 What was it?

00:10:10.760 What was the point

00:10:11.560 of this system?

00:10:12.840 I don't know

00:10:13.540 what the point

00:10:14.680 was exactly,

00:10:16.280 but it helped

00:10:17.240 give people

00:10:20.640 a sense

00:10:21.620 of we're all

00:10:22.740 part of

00:10:23.520 one world,

00:10:24.800 one community.

00:10:26.660 But it was

00:10:27.620 a process

00:10:28.180 of including you

00:10:29.300 in the Communist Party.

00:10:31.620 Yes,

00:10:32.000 it was

00:10:32.300 communist ideology.

00:10:33.760 It was part of that.

00:10:34.860 And then

00:10:35.720 almost everyone

00:10:38.000 went on

00:10:38.920 to become

00:10:39.520 a young pioneer.

00:10:41.560 But there were

00:10:42.320 certain conditions

00:10:43.440 and there was

00:10:44.700 an element of threat,

00:10:46.020 i.e.,

00:10:46.640 if you misbehave,

00:10:48.840 you won't become

00:10:49.620 a young pioneer.

00:10:50.840 Then what would happen?

00:10:53.040 Well,

00:10:54.180 if you're

00:10:55.380 considered human,

00:10:56.780 that's good,

00:10:57.700 right?

00:10:58.920 What about

00:10:59.920 if you're not?

00:11:01.380 That's bad,

00:11:02.580 right?

00:11:03.760 You're with us,

00:11:04.860 but not one of us.

00:11:07.080 You didn't become

00:11:08.020 a young pioneer.

00:11:10.040 It was a common

00:11:11.240 ideological timeline.

00:11:14.820 As a child,

00:11:16.060 you'd become

00:11:16.700 a little octobrist,

00:11:18.500 then a young pioneer,

00:11:19.960 then a Komsomolets.

00:11:21.520 And by the time

00:11:22.220 you became an adult,

00:11:23.780 you were a communist.

00:11:25.320 It was also possible

00:11:26.360 you wouldn't become

00:11:27.340 a communist.

00:11:28.140 Many people didn't.

00:11:29.300 Most people

00:11:30.020 became a Komsomolets,

00:11:31.680 but again,

00:11:32.220 not everyone.

00:11:33.400 Almost everyone

00:11:34.260 became a pioneer,

00:11:35.480 but again,

00:11:36.000 not everyone.

00:11:37.260 It was always

00:11:38.060 a festive event.

00:11:39.900 Becoming a little

00:11:40.860 octobrist

00:11:41.580 happened at school.

00:11:44.120 It was a celebration.

00:11:46.060 But when we became

00:11:47.120 young pioneers,

00:11:48.220 it was in the

00:11:48.960 Lenin Museum

00:11:49.700 in Tashkent.

00:11:50.600 It was very festive.

00:11:51.980 We were happy.

00:11:52.640 And the red tie

00:11:56.180 we wore

00:11:56.940 wasn't an issue.

00:11:59.700 We got used to it.

00:12:01.960 And you didn't have

00:12:03.200 to wear it

00:12:04.040 day to day.

00:12:05.400 I just want to compare

00:12:07.840 because even later,

00:12:10.540 when I was a kid,

00:12:12.000 I remember portraits

00:12:13.300 of Lenin

00:12:14.140 all over my school.

00:12:16.480 And I remember

00:12:17.200 you and mum

00:12:18.040 warning me

00:12:19.100 that people

00:12:20.080 would try to get

00:12:21.080 me involved

00:12:21.760 in all of this stuff.

00:12:23.740 But in your childhood,

00:12:25.160 this must have been

00:12:26.140 even more intense.

00:12:27.660 Yes.

00:12:28.880 The people of my age

00:12:30.200 all have

00:12:30.780 a pretty good

00:12:32.420 understanding

00:12:33.080 of Lenin's biography,

00:12:35.300 the history

00:12:35.920 of the Soviet Union.

00:12:38.780 And some of us

00:12:40.980 even know

00:12:41.500 the history

00:12:42.000 of the Russian Empire

00:12:43.260 and Russia

00:12:44.000 more generally,

00:12:45.940 as well as

00:12:46.780 the entire region.

00:12:48.480 We'll probably agree

00:12:49.900 that in the Soviet Union,

00:12:51.860 certain subjects

00:12:52.800 were taught well.

00:12:54.740 History,

00:12:55.920 maths,

00:12:56.760 the natural sciences.

00:12:58.980 But what I'm curious about,

00:13:01.660 given the context

00:13:02.980 that this was

00:13:03.720 a closed society,

00:13:05.620 what were you taught

00:13:06.960 about the West,

00:13:08.400 about America,

00:13:10.360 etc.?

00:13:11.980 At school,

00:13:13.260 nothing.

00:13:15.180 At school,

00:13:15.900 we studied English.

00:13:17.280 We were never told

00:13:18.240 that English

00:13:19.520 is the language

00:13:20.400 of the bad people.

00:13:21.980 Sure.

00:13:22.860 And I imagine

00:13:23.940 you would have been

00:13:24.840 given English books

00:13:26.040 to read, right?

00:13:27.640 We were taught

00:13:28.820 English very badly.

00:13:30.360 We were given

00:13:32.180 fragments of textbooks

00:13:33.840 and it was hardly

00:13:35.780 classical literature

00:13:37.060 because, you know,

00:13:38.680 the more classical

00:13:39.580 the literature,

00:13:40.560 the more complicated

00:13:41.660 the language.

00:13:42.780 We were given

00:13:43.980 simplified text.

00:13:46.340 Were you allowed

00:13:46.880 to read translations

00:13:47.920 of English language books?

00:13:49.900 Of course.

00:13:50.300 I had a lot of

00:13:50.840 American, European,

00:13:52.240 not just English,

00:13:53.160 but French and German books,

00:13:54.360 all of which I read

00:13:55.440 in Russian

00:13:55.860 with great pleasure.

00:13:56.580 There were plenty

00:13:57.540 of American, European,

00:13:58.720 not only English,

00:13:59.520 but also French

00:14:00.220 and German writers.

00:14:01.560 And I read all of this

00:14:02.380 in Russian with pleasure.

00:14:03.840 Later,

00:14:04.540 I tried

00:14:05.440 reading in English

00:14:08.700 what I'd read

00:14:10.240 in Russian

00:14:11.060 and realized

00:14:12.480 I know Russian

00:14:13.940 way better

00:14:14.940 and enjoy that more.

00:14:16.920 Broadway's smash hit

00:14:19.420 The Neil Diamond Musical

00:14:20.720 A Beautiful Noise

00:14:22.080 is coming to Toronto.

00:14:23.840 The true story

00:14:24.600 of a kid from Brooklyn

00:14:25.660 destined for something more

00:14:27.200 featuring all the songs

00:14:28.340 you love

00:14:28.980 including America,

00:14:30.400 Forever in Blue Jeans

00:14:31.420 and Sweet Caroline.

00:14:33.100 Like Jersey Boys

00:14:34.060 and Beautiful,

00:14:34.920 the next musical

00:14:35.860 mega hit is here.

00:14:37.180 The Neil Diamond Musical

00:14:38.480 A Beautiful Noise

00:14:39.840 April 28th

00:14:40.900 through June 7th,

00:14:41.940 2026

00:14:42.840 The Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:14:44.900 Get tickets

00:14:45.420 at Mirvish.com

00:14:46.760 Were you given

00:14:50.260 a particular view

00:14:51.580 of this unfamiliar

00:14:52.760 Western world

00:14:54.100 in a formal sense?

00:14:57.980 Well,

00:14:58.780 the ideological message

00:15:01.340 was this.

00:15:02.020 We're socialists.

00:15:03.400 We're right and good.

00:15:05.020 We're heading towards communism,

00:15:07.080 which is right and good.

00:15:09.140 And they,

00:15:10.620 Americans,

00:15:11.460 Brits,

00:15:11.940 French and Germans,

00:15:13.360 will also eventually

00:15:14.580 come to communism,

00:15:15.620 but they're on the wrong

00:15:16.620 path for now.

00:15:17.820 But the entire world

00:15:19.060 will be communist

00:15:19.960 one day.

00:15:21.160 What made communism

00:15:22.420 good and right

00:15:23.220 in this world view?

00:15:24.160 Why were we heading

00:15:24.960 towards it?

00:15:26.120 It was thought of

00:15:27.300 as the peak

00:15:28.320 of human happiness.

00:15:31.180 I've thought about

00:15:32.200 this a lot

00:15:32.960 and in my opinion,

00:15:35.380 communism

00:15:35.840 communism is religion.

00:15:38.280 It's a highly mystical religion.

00:15:41.240 If people were angels,

00:15:43.840 the best form of society

00:15:47.120 would be

00:15:48.420 a communist society.

00:15:50.720 But if people are demons,

00:15:52.620 the best form of society

00:15:54.300 is different,

00:15:55.300 namely capitalism.

00:15:56.900 Or we could say...

00:15:58.580 Well,

00:15:59.040 not demons,

00:16:00.340 but semi-demons.

00:16:01.600 If people are people.

00:16:03.620 Well,

00:16:04.460 here's a question.

00:16:05.440 There's such a thing

00:16:06.220 as human nature.

00:16:07.020 They're both good and bad.

00:16:08.580 Semi-angels,

00:16:09.800 semi-demons.

00:16:10.820 So a society

00:16:11.980 that tries to pretend

00:16:12.940 everyone is an angel

00:16:13.800 quickly becomes

00:16:14.540 a society of demons.

00:16:15.960 It doesn't try to pretend.

00:16:17.940 It says

00:16:18.560 we must all

00:16:20.140 become angels.

00:16:21.460 Come on, guys.

00:16:22.360 Be angels.

00:16:23.220 We are communists.

00:16:24.420 Be angels.

00:16:25.540 Did it work?

00:16:26.640 Did people manage

00:16:27.880 to be angels?

00:16:30.220 People

00:16:30.860 can't.

00:16:33.320 Not everyone

00:16:34.240 can be

00:16:35.020 even 80% angel.

00:16:36.880 Yes,

00:16:37.580 many did manage.

00:16:39.640 But the moment

00:16:40.540 there were a few people

00:16:42.180 within any micro-community

00:16:45.280 who weren't angels,

00:16:46.900 things became difficult

00:16:49.020 and uncomfortable

00:16:50.120 for the angels.

00:16:52.240 The simpler

00:16:53.020 the people,

00:16:55.140 the more kind

00:16:56.080 and honest they were

00:16:57.100 because

00:16:57.640 why fight over things?

00:17:00.140 I have bread,

00:17:02.220 butter,

00:17:03.520 some meat for dinner.

00:17:05.720 Everything's fine.

00:17:06.880 I have clothes.

00:17:08.840 I have work clothes.

00:17:11.040 I may not have everything.

00:17:13.840 For example,

00:17:16.480 my grandmother,

00:17:19.000 Valia,

00:17:20.540 lived in a single-story

00:17:22.260 building with two rooms.

00:17:24.900 The toilet was outside,

00:17:27.280 a hole in the ground.

00:17:29.060 In my Oxford speech,

00:17:30.080 I explained what

00:17:30.660 that kind of toilet is like.

00:17:31.920 Yes.

00:17:33.560 There was no running water

00:17:35.300 in her house.

00:17:37.840 She had to go down

00:17:39.280 the street

00:17:39.840 to a tap

00:17:40.500 where she'd get

00:17:41.440 water in a bucket

00:17:43.440 and carry it back home.

00:17:45.880 Initially,

00:17:46.520 there was no gas

00:17:47.420 in the house

00:17:48.100 but there was electricity.

00:17:50.320 Eventually,

00:17:51.080 they connected the gas

00:17:53.720 but there was no running water

00:17:55.860 and no sewer.

00:17:57.500 She'd go to the public bathhouse

00:17:59.280 once a week

00:18:00.080 unless it was really hot.

00:18:02.300 When it got really hot,

00:18:03.500 she had this

00:18:04.340 plywood outdoor toilet

00:18:06.880 and a plywood outdoor shower.

00:18:09.760 It had a container on top.

00:18:12.000 In the morning,

00:18:13.440 you'd put a few buckets

00:18:14.540 of water in there.

00:18:15.900 During the day,

00:18:16.700 the scorching Tashkent sun

00:18:19.260 would warm it up

00:18:20.260 and around 5 p.m.

00:18:22.080 you'd be able

00:18:22.720 to have a hot shower.

00:18:23.920 That's more or less

00:18:24.620 how it was.

00:18:25.820 We'll get back to my dad

00:18:27.280 in just a moment

00:18:28.140 but first,

00:18:29.180 let me tell you

00:18:29.860 about something

00:18:30.560 I personally use,

00:18:32.400 ground news.

00:18:33.380 In an era

00:18:33.980 where facts are so often

00:18:35.220 filtered through

00:18:35.880 partisan lenses,

00:18:37.120 it's more important

00:18:38.100 than ever

00:18:38.800 to know the full story

00:18:40.220 behind the headlines.

00:18:41.560 That's why

00:18:42.240 I trust Ground News,

00:18:43.860 a platform

00:18:44.520 that cuts through

00:18:45.420 media bias

00:18:46.140 to give you

00:18:46.640 a comprehensive view

00:18:47.740 of what's really happening.

00:18:49.760 With Ground News,

00:18:50.580 you can compare coverage

00:18:51.700 from over 50,000 sources

00:18:53.680 and assess each one's

00:18:55.220 political bias.

00:18:56.460 One of their standout features

00:18:57.920 is the blind spot feed

00:18:59.360 which highlights stories

00:19:00.860 under-reported

00:19:01.860 by either the left

00:19:02.800 or the right.

00:19:04.020 Let's look at

00:19:04.580 a couple of stories.

00:19:05.860 Follow along

00:19:06.460 at ground.news

00:19:07.620 slash trigonometry.

00:19:08.740 Look at this story

00:19:09.460 that is being covered

00:19:10.280 almost entirely

00:19:11.240 by outlets on the left.

00:19:13.340 How Trump could declare

00:19:14.480 a national emergency

00:19:15.620 to hit Canada

00:19:16.460 with 25% tariffs.

00:19:18.500 You can see why

00:19:19.100 the left will want

00:19:19.800 to amplify

00:19:20.280 that kind of story.

00:19:21.640 But here's a story

00:19:22.500 the right's really

00:19:23.400 focusing on.

00:19:24.560 Study finds

00:19:25.240 TikTok suppresses

00:19:26.440 anti-China content

00:19:27.860 influences opinions.

00:19:29.780 On the news story page,

00:19:31.100 you'll get a grasp

00:19:31.940 of where the gaps

00:19:32.940 in reporting lie.

00:19:34.280 You'll see a bias breakdown,

00:19:35.900 how reliable

00:19:36.640 each source is

00:19:37.900 and learn

00:19:38.620 how all the sources

00:19:39.780 are funded.

00:19:40.600 It's essential

00:19:41.200 for anyone who's serious

00:19:42.440 about staying informed.

00:19:44.120 Right now,

00:19:45.060 Trigonometry viewers

00:19:45.940 who subscribe

00:19:46.680 through our link

00:19:47.400 can get 40% off

00:19:49.120 their Unlimited Access

00:19:50.740 Vantage plan,

00:19:51.820 the same plan

00:19:52.400 that we use.

00:19:53.340 Just click the link

00:19:54.160 in the description

00:19:54.900 or scan the QR code

00:19:56.240 and subscribe

00:19:57.080 at ground.news

00:19:58.880 slash trigonometry.

00:20:00.120 This is the perfect way

00:20:01.440 to support transparency

00:20:02.460 in the media

00:20:03.160 while keeping yourself

00:20:04.300 informed.

00:20:05.100 Your subscription

00:20:05.740 helps Ground News

00:20:06.960 bring transparency

00:20:07.900 back to the media,

00:20:09.140 something that

00:20:09.600 I fully support.

00:20:10.540 Coming back to communism

00:20:12.380 and people as angels,

00:20:13.660 it's an interesting subject

00:20:14.820 that you raised.

00:20:16.180 Coming back

00:20:17.020 to the Communist Party

00:20:19.720 leaders

00:20:20.720 who you described

00:20:22.040 as still being ideological,

00:20:23.960 were they angels?

00:20:26.500 You know,

00:20:27.480 they were archangels.

00:20:29.960 It's a different thing.

00:20:31.520 It's a type of angel

00:20:33.000 but harsh,

00:20:35.240 tough.

00:20:36.620 An archangel

00:20:37.560 is someone

00:20:38.480 who will slaughter

00:20:39.880 anyone who misbehaves.

00:20:42.320 I understand

00:20:42.940 what you're saying

00:20:43.980 and it's an interesting

00:20:45.980 idea

00:20:46.760 but I'm asking

00:20:48.500 more about

00:20:49.220 their personal conduct.

00:20:50.880 Our viewers

00:20:51.320 don't know this.

00:20:53.220 But at a certain point

00:20:54.700 we lived in a country house

00:20:56.460 where these people

00:20:57.340 used to live.

00:21:00.120 Wealthy people

00:21:01.400 today would look

00:21:03.000 down on that

00:21:04.220 country house

00:21:05.440 as a piece

00:21:06.680 of crap.

00:21:09.280 We'll come to that

00:21:10.480 but we understood

00:21:11.580 pretty quickly

00:21:12.880 or at least

00:21:13.860 I did

00:21:14.620 that they

00:21:16.260 weren't living

00:21:17.320 in compliance

00:21:18.460 with communist

00:21:19.580 ideals.

00:21:20.960 For example,

00:21:22.060 they watched

00:21:22.840 banned western movies.

00:21:24.680 They weren't banned.

00:21:27.980 We also watched

00:21:28.900 western movies.

00:21:29.820 Not the full range

00:21:31.360 that they did.

00:21:32.360 We watched it

00:21:33.400 on TV.

00:21:34.780 Yes,

00:21:35.180 they had more rights.

00:21:36.700 They could watch

00:21:37.680 banned movies.

00:21:38.860 That's my point.

00:21:40.040 Things about which

00:21:41.420 the decision

00:21:42.340 hadn't been made

00:21:43.760 as to whether

00:21:44.640 it should be banned.

00:21:47.360 I'm not sure

00:21:48.140 that's the reason

00:21:49.100 their film libraries

00:21:50.320 included porn.

00:21:51.620 starting

00:21:52.700 with Khrushchev

00:21:54.700 they were

00:21:55.480 permitted to do

00:21:56.420 anything

00:21:56.840 and dealing

00:21:57.740 with them

00:21:58.260 was prohibited.

00:21:59.420 You don't think

00:21:59.980 this was happening

00:22:00.580 prior to Khrushchev?

00:22:01.780 Nonetheless,

00:22:02.960 all the powerful

00:22:03.860 people in the

00:22:04.760 Soviet Union

00:22:05.520 cost their country

00:22:06.560 less than one

00:22:07.640 the

00:22:08.100 Oligarch.

00:22:11.820 Yes.

00:22:12.900 Sure,

00:22:13.440 but oligarchs

00:22:14.220 don't pretend

00:22:14.780 to be archangels.

00:22:15.800 I'm trying to

00:22:16.340 understand.

00:22:17.340 Well,

00:22:17.940 it depends.

00:22:19.460 Some do.

00:22:20.260 Well,

00:22:21.380 maybe.

00:22:22.440 Let's come back

00:22:23.340 to the idea

00:22:23.920 of communism

00:22:24.660 as a religion.

00:22:27.060 In addition

00:22:27.720 to the fact

00:22:28.500 it's based,

00:22:29.480 we can probably

00:22:30.540 agree,

00:22:31.420 on a certain

00:22:32.420 ideological

00:22:33.540 viewpoint

00:22:34.420 that doesn't

00:22:35.180 match reality,

00:22:37.360 the idea

00:22:38.120 that all people

00:22:39.040 are angels,

00:22:39.840 why else

00:22:40.440 is it a religion?

00:22:42.020 The idea

00:22:42.920 isn't that

00:22:43.860 all people

00:22:44.520 are angels

00:22:45.260 but that

00:22:45.860 all people

00:22:46.560 can become

00:22:47.500 angels.

00:22:48.620 And it's

00:22:49.220 important

00:22:49.820 that they

00:22:50.440 do

00:22:50.760 and then

00:22:51.800 will arrive

00:22:52.600 at communism.

00:22:54.340 It's a religion

00:22:55.280 in the sense

00:22:56.260 that if

00:22:57.660 they hadn't

00:22:58.460 exiled God

00:22:59.700 it would be

00:23:01.280 perfect.

00:23:02.980 There's a God

00:23:03.920 and God

00:23:04.460 commanded us

00:23:05.240 to be communists

00:23:06.200 but they said

00:23:07.180 there's no God,

00:23:08.220 we are God.

00:23:09.100 It's a continuation

00:23:09.940 of what we may

00:23:11.200 discuss in our

00:23:12.260 next conversation.

00:23:14.240 The idea

00:23:14.800 invented in Europe

00:23:16.320 which I call

00:23:17.080 the evil

00:23:17.720 of humanism,

00:23:19.440 replacing God

00:23:20.560 with man,

00:23:21.700 man isn't a God,

00:23:23.740 we'll talk

00:23:24.800 about it

00:23:25.780 next time,

00:23:27.660 this was

00:23:28.700 another framework

00:23:30.580 that saw

00:23:32.000 man as

00:23:32.980 God-like.

00:23:35.160 And communism

00:23:36.580 also put man

00:23:38.160 in God's place.

00:23:39.780 Not only that,

00:23:41.200 but also that

00:23:42.080 the simpler

00:23:42.780 and more working

00:23:43.720 class that man

00:23:44.640 was,

00:23:45.140 the more important

00:23:46.000 a God he was,

00:23:47.460 something like that.

00:23:50.560 Religion involves

00:23:51.880 a whole host

00:23:52.820 of rituals.

00:23:54.400 We had plenty

00:23:55.280 of those.

00:23:56.340 Tell us about them.

00:23:57.820 I mentioned

00:23:58.360 we were inducted

00:24:00.220 into the young

00:24:00.840 pioneers in the

00:24:01.640 Lenin Museum.

00:24:02.760 Every capital

00:24:03.520 of every Soviet

00:24:04.400 republic and maybe

00:24:05.440 even every regional

00:24:06.400 capital had a

00:24:07.520 Lenin Museum.

00:24:08.540 What's funny is

00:24:09.300 that every one

00:24:09.920 of these museums

00:24:10.680 had his coat

00:24:11.480 which he was

00:24:12.600 wearing when

00:24:13.420 he was shot

00:24:14.220 at by that

00:24:15.000 woman,

00:24:15.600 I've forgotten

00:24:16.260 her name,

00:24:17.340 there was an

00:24:18.100 attempt on his

00:24:19.020 life and he

00:24:19.940 was shot.

00:24:21.280 So there was

00:24:22.260 a coat

00:24:23.120 with bullies.

00:24:24.080 It was in every

00:24:24.420 museum.

00:24:24.940 It was funny,

00:24:26.220 but it was

00:24:27.040 a ritual.

00:24:28.960 There were

00:24:29.620 many rituals.

00:24:31.460 For example,

00:24:32.460 I was a kid

00:24:36.200 and I went

00:24:37.220 to school

00:24:38.080 for free

00:24:39.080 and if I

00:24:39.960 wanted to

00:24:40.780 do anything

00:24:41.840 I spent

00:24:44.720 a lot of

00:24:45.940 time in the

00:24:46.760 palace of

00:24:47.480 young pioneers

00:24:48.560 in Tashkent

00:24:49.780 which had been

00:24:50.820 the Grand Duke's

00:24:52.040 palace before

00:24:53.140 that.

00:24:54.040 The Grand Duke

00:24:55.020 had been deported

00:24:56.100 to Turkestan

00:24:57.060 a long time

00:24:57.700 prior and his

00:24:58.680 police became

00:24:59.440 the police of

00:25:00.320 young pioneers.

00:25:01.180 So I went

00:25:02.420 there to

00:25:02.880 learn public

00:25:03.620 performance.

00:25:06.500 Reciting

00:25:07.380 poetry,

00:25:09.100 public

00:25:09.660 speaking,

00:25:11.240 etc.

00:25:12.680 I went

00:25:13.780 to this

00:25:14.660 club for

00:25:15.900 free.

00:25:18.420 And

00:25:18.780 eventually,

00:25:20.060 as a reward

00:25:21.120 for some

00:25:21.960 achievement or

00:25:23.120 other,

00:25:24.340 I was sent

00:25:25.140 to a republic

00:25:25.920 level young

00:25:26.820 pioneer summer

00:25:27.760 camp on the

00:25:28.580 coast of the

00:25:29.260 Aral Sea.

00:25:30.420 This wasn't

00:25:31.160 the best

00:25:31.600 deal.

00:25:32.520 My school

00:25:33.100 mate who

00:25:33.700 went there

00:25:34.200 with me won

00:25:34.900 a trip to

00:25:35.520 Artec,

00:25:36.080 whereas my

00:25:37.140 trip was in

00:25:38.000 Uzbekistan.

00:25:39.080 Interesting.

00:25:40.220 Again, you've

00:25:41.020 raised a subject

00:25:41.640 that our viewers

00:25:42.200 may be unfamiliar

00:25:42.900 with.

00:25:43.680 The idea

00:25:44.560 that you can't

00:25:45.640 buy what you

00:25:46.400 want even if

00:25:47.280 you have

00:25:47.700 money, to

00:25:49.080 get something

00:25:50.160 it has to

00:25:51.380 be issued

00:25:52.080 to you.

00:25:52.980 Tell us

00:25:53.400 about that.

00:25:54.080 Well, I

00:25:55.140 didn't

00:25:55.780 mention it,

00:25:57.140 but let

00:25:58.620 me explain

00:25:59.620 it.

00:26:00.100 It was

00:26:00.740 more

00:26:01.160 complicated.

00:26:03.560 Only

00:26:04.020 expensive

00:26:05.000 things had

00:26:06.260 limits.

00:26:07.860 You

00:26:08.160 couldn't

00:26:08.820 just go

00:26:09.580 buy a

00:26:10.360 car,

00:26:11.440 or

00:26:11.760 especially

00:26:13.780 an

00:26:15.080 apartment.

00:26:16.520 You couldn't

00:26:17.480 do that

00:26:17.980 because it

00:26:18.760 would be a

00:26:19.520 violation of

00:26:20.380 the socialist

00:26:21.120 system,

00:26:21.960 which said

00:26:22.560 that everyone

00:26:23.900 is equal.

00:26:25.420 So, if

00:26:25.940 someone's a

00:26:27.240 lot wealthier

00:26:28.620 than someone

00:26:29.680 else, that's

00:26:31.080 bad.

00:26:32.320 The highest

00:26:33.600 salaries for

00:26:35.380 the top

00:26:36.000 people in

00:26:36.880 the country

00:26:37.680 were

00:26:38.080 approximately

00:26:39.180 five to

00:26:40.300 eight times

00:26:41.280 more than

00:26:42.800 what my

00:26:43.580 mother earned,

00:26:45.980 who was

00:26:46.960 just a

00:26:48.100 junior

00:26:48.580 lecturer.

00:26:50.840 That's

00:26:51.440 how it

00:26:52.120 was.

00:26:53.860 On the

00:26:54.580 other hand,

00:26:55.420 if you

00:26:55.760 were a

00:26:56.040 government

00:26:56.380 official,

00:26:57.380 not only

00:26:57.780 was your

00:26:58.220 salary not

00:26:58.940 160 but

00:27:00.660 700 rubles,

00:27:01.960 but also

00:27:02.840 you had

00:27:03.340 access to

00:27:04.380 a food

00:27:04.720 shop no

00:27:05.320 one else

00:27:05.860 had access

00:27:06.400 to except

00:27:06.960 other

00:27:07.380 government

00:27:07.880 officials.

00:27:09.100 There you

00:27:09.540 could buy

00:27:10.020 food that

00:27:10.680 cost two

00:27:11.280 rubles in

00:27:11.940 any other

00:27:12.420 shop for

00:27:13.400 45

00:27:14.020 kopecks,

00:27:14.960 because the

00:27:15.540 prices had

00:27:16.220 been kept

00:27:16.700 at the

00:27:17.080 level of

00:27:17.680 the 1920

00:27:18.380 this was

00:27:19.720 deliberate.

00:27:22.220 What about

00:27:23.100 the quality?

00:27:24.020 Was it

00:27:24.340 the same?

00:27:25.260 If you

00:27:25.760 remember,

00:27:26.800 when we

00:27:27.520 lived at

00:27:28.120 this country

00:27:29.000 house,

00:27:29.680 the quality

00:27:30.480 of the

00:27:31.120 food was

00:27:31.780 very high.

00:27:32.560 I remember

00:27:33.580 when you

00:27:34.080 were in

00:27:34.420 hospital once,

00:27:35.440 this may

00:27:35.880 have been

00:27:36.280 in the

00:27:36.660 1990s,

00:27:37.580 the USSR

00:27:38.320 had collapsed,

00:27:40.220 but the

00:27:40.740 customs and

00:27:41.960 some systems

00:27:42.820 were still

00:27:43.320 in place.

00:27:44.020 You told me

00:27:44.580 that in

00:27:45.080 your ward

00:27:45.920 there was

00:27:47.160 a woman

00:27:48.040 who was

00:27:49.520 from these

00:27:50.660 top party

00:27:51.580 circles,

00:27:52.920 it was

00:27:53.560 either you

00:27:54.400 or someone

00:27:55.340 else there

00:27:56.220 who took

00:27:57.280 out some

00:27:57.800 basic salami

00:27:59.000 out in

00:27:59.540 front of

00:28:00.000 her.

00:28:00.260 Yes,

00:28:00.880 that wasn't

00:28:01.380 something I

00:28:01.940 saw.

00:28:02.260 I told you

00:28:02.720 this story.

00:28:03.700 So she

00:28:04.260 saw someone

00:28:05.060 take out

00:28:05.660 this basic

00:28:06.440 sausage.

00:28:07.340 She said,

00:28:08.260 we don't

00:28:08.740 buy food

00:28:09.420 in the

00:28:09.900 city,

00:28:10.440 we don't

00:28:10.980 eat food,

00:28:11.760 that's for

00:28:12.320 the people.

00:28:13.480 Food for

00:28:14.060 the people.

00:28:14.840 I remember

00:28:15.420 this phrase

00:28:15.960 very well.

00:28:16.980 So these

00:28:17.480 special food

00:28:18.360 shops.

00:28:18.600 Yes,

00:28:19.760 that's what

00:28:20.820 I mean

00:28:21.440 when I say

00:28:22.520 decline.

00:28:24.060 This was

00:28:25.000 occurring by

00:28:26.340 the 80s

00:28:27.600 or so.

00:28:29.440 So you

00:28:29.940 watched this

00:28:30.620 happen?

00:28:32.380 Yes.

00:28:33.900 When I was

00:28:35.080 a kid,

00:28:36.340 I did a

00:28:37.180 lot of

00:28:37.600 the shopping,

00:28:38.640 the adults

00:28:39.320 would send

00:28:40.060 me to buy

00:28:40.800 things,

00:28:41.620 and I saw

00:28:42.680 it with

00:28:43.120 my own

00:28:43.660 eyes,

00:28:44.240 and I

00:28:44.580 saw how

00:28:45.240 over time

00:28:46.600 the choice

00:28:48.580 quality and

00:28:49.880 quantity of

00:28:51.140 everything went

00:28:52.480 down.

00:28:53.480 At the

00:28:54.080 beginning,

00:28:54.780 I might have

00:28:55.460 to queue

00:28:56.020 for 10

00:28:56.760 minutes to

00:28:57.540 buy meat.

00:28:59.060 I'd be

00:28:59.820 third or

00:29:02.000 fourth in

00:29:02.840 line.

00:29:03.500 By the

00:29:03.960 end, I'd

00:29:04.680 have to

00:29:05.240 queue for

00:29:05.960 hours to

00:29:07.620 buy a

00:29:08.260 kilo and

00:29:08.920 a half of

00:29:09.760 meat that

00:29:10.620 I was

00:29:11.180 allowed.

00:29:11.740 You

00:29:12.700 couldn't

00:29:13.280 buy more?

00:29:14.560 It was

00:29:15.080 often the

00:29:16.040 case in

00:29:16.520 stores.

00:29:17.460 We've got

00:29:17.820 a certain

00:29:18.200 amount of

00:29:18.800 meat, or

00:29:19.860 whatever else

00:29:20.860 it was, and

00:29:21.620 everyone was

00:29:22.280 allocated a

00:29:23.100 certain amount

00:29:23.700 they could

00:29:24.060 buy to

00:29:24.940 make sure

00:29:25.580 everyone got

00:29:26.580 some.

00:29:27.320 So by the

00:29:27.980 end, you'd

00:29:28.580 be allocated

00:29:30.100 a kilo and

00:29:31.080 a half, and

00:29:32.260 you'd wait

00:29:32.900 for hours in

00:29:34.120 a queue of

00:29:35.460 hundreds of

00:29:36.340 people.

00:29:37.400 That was the

00:29:38.240 economic decline

00:29:39.400 of the Soviet

00:29:40.180 Union.

00:29:40.780 Were you

00:29:41.420 given an

00:29:42.120 explanation for

00:29:43.140 why this

00:29:43.740 decline was

00:29:44.500 happening?

00:29:46.000 We were not

00:29:46.520 allowed to

00:29:47.220 call it

00:29:47.660 decline.

00:29:48.360 We weren't

00:29:48.860 even allowed

00:29:49.500 to notice

00:29:50.200 it.

00:29:50.940 Everything is

00:29:51.640 fine.

00:29:52.660 What would

00:29:53.160 have happened

00:29:53.640 to someone

00:29:54.140 who did

00:29:54.620 notice?

00:29:56.020 We all

00:29:56.820 knew.

00:29:57.640 What did

00:29:58.020 you know?

00:29:58.680 That there

00:29:59.140 were shortages

00:29:59.860 of different

00:30:00.900 things in

00:30:01.400 different cities.

00:30:02.360 But you

00:30:02.800 said you

00:30:03.140 weren't allowed

00:30:03.600 to notice?

00:30:04.540 In Tashkent,

00:30:05.200 things weren't

00:30:05.760 too bad.

00:30:06.440 In Moscow,

00:30:06.980 things were

00:30:07.560 very good.

00:30:08.240 Well,

00:30:08.560 Moscow is

00:30:09.060 Moscow.

00:30:09.420 My

00:30:10.560 grandmother

00:30:11.360 brought me

00:30:12.460 sweets from

00:30:13.380 Moscow that

00:30:14.540 I had never

00:30:15.260 seen because

00:30:16.260 we didn't have

00:30:17.300 them in Tashkent.

00:30:18.860 Whereas in

00:30:20.140 Norilsk, where

00:30:21.840 my wife and

00:30:22.960 your mother grew

00:30:24.060 up, they were

00:30:26.020 extremely well

00:30:27.100 supplied.

00:30:27.900 Well, provided

00:30:28.880 there was enough

00:30:29.920 because they could

00:30:30.860 only deliver food

00:30:32.200 there a few

00:30:33.460 months a year

00:30:34.480 when the ice

00:30:35.900 had melted.

00:30:36.680 But what they

00:30:37.600 delivered was

00:30:38.520 generously

00:30:39.280 distributed to

00:30:40.560 the citizens.

00:30:41.900 Let's come

00:30:42.400 back to the

00:30:42.900 idea that you

00:30:43.840 weren't allowed

00:30:44.580 to notice the

00:30:45.640 decline.

00:30:46.440 You weren't

00:30:46.840 allowed to

00:30:47.300 call it

00:30:47.700 decline.

00:30:48.420 By this

00:30:49.100 time, the

00:30:49.760 idea was

00:30:50.760 that criticising

00:30:53.020 something,

00:30:54.100 anything,

00:30:55.340 about the

00:30:56.120 Soviet Union

00:30:56.980 is completely

00:30:58.000 unacceptable.

00:30:59.600 We were

00:31:00.220 supposed to

00:31:01.020 be respectful.

00:31:01.940 What would

00:31:03.220 have happened

00:31:03.640 if you said

00:31:04.220 we've got

00:31:04.800 decline going

00:31:05.560 on, I

00:31:06.200 just spent

00:31:06.680 three hours

00:31:07.280 in line for

00:31:07.880 food at

00:31:08.300 school or

00:31:08.880 at work?

00:31:10.360 There'd be

00:31:10.760 a big

00:31:11.980 argument.

00:31:12.680 If you were

00:31:13.120 an adult and

00:31:13.980 were trying to

00:31:14.740 achieve something,

00:31:15.740 you would

00:31:16.040 almost certainly

00:31:17.000 have been in

00:31:18.160 real trouble.

00:31:19.500 What kind

00:31:20.020 of big

00:31:20.480 trouble?

00:31:21.880 Different

00:31:22.380 kinds.

00:31:23.640 You wouldn't

00:31:24.340 have been

00:31:24.800 shot like in

00:31:25.960 previous decades.

00:31:27.460 When people

00:31:28.360 could be

00:31:29.000 executed for

00:31:30.340 expressing

00:31:31.140 anger at

00:31:32.100 the state

00:31:32.860 or the

00:31:33.420 socialist

00:31:33.980 system,

00:31:35.020 but they

00:31:35.780 could have

00:31:36.320 kicked you

00:31:37.060 out of

00:31:37.540 the

00:31:37.780 Komsomol,

00:31:39.100 which meant

00:31:39.960 you wouldn't

00:31:40.640 be able to

00:31:41.420 go to

00:31:41.920 university.

00:31:44.520 You'd be

00:31:45.920 denied a

00:31:46.480 higher education.

00:31:47.560 Many things

00:31:48.060 could happen.

00:31:49.240 You could

00:31:49.620 be fired.

00:31:51.300 Yes.

00:31:51.860 They could

00:31:52.360 even put you

00:31:53.140 in a

00:31:53.440 psychiatric

00:31:53.840 hospital,

00:31:54.520 because you

00:31:55.120 can't possibly

00:31:55.860 be healthy

00:31:56.520 if you're

00:31:57.320 not happy.

00:31:58.040 Under the

00:31:58.660 socialist

00:31:59.120 system.

00:32:00.100 Yes.

00:32:01.140 there was

00:32:02.460 a time

00:32:02.860 in the

00:32:03.220 Soviet

00:32:03.460 Union

00:32:03.940 when

00:32:04.320 dissidents,

00:32:05.520 not a

00:32:06.220 huge number

00:32:06.940 of them,

00:32:07.620 but some,

00:32:08.700 instead of

00:32:09.300 being prosecuted

00:32:10.400 and punished,

00:32:11.380 were simply

00:32:11.980 declared

00:32:12.540 clinically

00:32:13.120 insane and

00:32:14.500 put in

00:32:15.000 prisons for

00:32:15.840 mentally ill

00:32:16.640 people,

00:32:17.600 i.e.

00:32:19.040 psychiatric

00:32:19.580 hospitals,

00:32:20.900 where they

00:32:21.640 were treated

00:32:22.800 extremely

00:32:24.020 badly.

00:32:25.880 It was

00:32:26.680 worse than

00:32:28.020 going to

00:32:28.920 prison.

00:32:29.680 So you

00:32:30.800 all knew

00:32:31.300 that something

00:32:31.800 like this

00:32:32.300 could happen

00:32:32.780 to you?

00:32:33.620 That was

00:32:34.360 one of the

00:32:35.220 errors of

00:32:36.180 the time,

00:32:37.060 because,

00:32:38.080 you know,

00:32:38.580 one of the

00:32:39.200 main ideas

00:32:40.060 is that

00:32:40.840 making

00:32:41.880 mistakes is

00:32:43.120 how you

00:32:43.740 ultimately

00:32:44.540 succeed.

00:32:46.040 But if

00:32:47.580 you refuse

00:32:48.260 to accept

00:32:48.960 that you

00:32:49.460 make mistakes,

00:32:50.520 you stop

00:32:50.980 growing,

00:32:52.000 you stay

00:32:52.600 as you are,

00:32:53.380 and you

00:32:53.700 can't move

00:32:54.340 forward.

00:32:55.200 The socialist

00:32:55.980 system declared

00:32:57.260 its goal

00:32:58.040 was to

00:32:58.920 move

00:32:59.200 towards

00:32:59.700 communism,

00:33:00.380 but as

00:33:01.140 soon as

00:33:01.540 we were

00:33:02.020 prohibited

00:33:02.700 from

00:33:03.180 acknowledging

00:33:03.920 the system

00:33:05.220 wasn't

00:33:05.760 perfect,

00:33:06.560 that put

00:33:07.200 the brakes

00:33:07.760 on.

00:33:08.540 So there

00:33:09.280 was no

00:33:09.660 feedback

00:33:10.120 mechanism?

00:33:11.320 I don't

00:33:11.820 know if

00:33:12.180 it's about

00:33:12.640 feedback,

00:33:13.220 but there

00:33:13.500 was no

00:33:13.860 ability to

00:33:14.500 draw

00:33:14.700 conclusions,

00:33:15.920 gain

00:33:16.160 experience,

00:33:17.400 adjust the

00:33:17.980 plan,

00:33:18.720 and move

00:33:19.200 towards the

00:33:19.780 original

00:33:20.220 objective.

00:33:21.220 What's the

00:33:21.660 point of

00:33:22.100 making

00:33:22.460 mistakes?

00:33:23.080 I gave

00:33:24.760 this a

00:33:25.280 go.

00:33:25.920 It didn't

00:33:26.580 work because

00:33:27.340 of X,

00:33:28.200 so let

00:33:28.880 me try

00:33:29.360 a different

00:33:29.920 way.

00:33:30.740 Okay,

00:33:31.220 that didn't

00:33:31.860 work,

00:33:32.320 either because

00:33:33.120 of Y.

00:33:34.040 Let's try

00:33:34.720 another way

00:33:35.500 that's

00:33:35.940 different to

00:33:36.660 both.

00:33:37.180 That worked.

00:33:38.460 But if

00:33:38.900 I keep

00:33:39.420 doing things

00:33:40.440 the original

00:33:41.260 way,

00:33:42.160 I'll never

00:33:42.920 achieve the

00:33:43.780 goal I'm

00:33:44.380 aiming for.

00:33:45.500 That's one

00:33:46.240 of the

00:33:46.680 reasons

00:33:47.220 communism

00:33:47.940 failed.

00:33:49.340 Were you

00:33:49.700 a communist

00:33:50.140 when you

00:33:50.480 were a

00:33:50.740 young man?

00:33:51.420 I was

00:33:52.080 a little

00:33:52.520 octobrist,

00:33:53.420 a young

00:33:53.780 pioneer,

00:33:55.380 but I

00:33:56.780 never tried

00:33:57.500 to join

00:33:58.120 the party.

00:33:58.940 Why not?

00:33:59.540 First of

00:34:00.400 all,

00:34:01.020 because I

00:34:01.860 didn't want

00:34:02.860 to.

00:34:03.940 See,

00:34:04.720 in the

00:34:05.400 1920s

00:34:06.920 and 1930s,

00:34:08.700 being a

00:34:09.400 communist

00:34:09.980 was an

00:34:11.000 honor.

00:34:12.220 It was

00:34:12.960 a sign

00:34:13.660 that you

00:34:14.360 had earned

00:34:15.300 something,

00:34:16.360 as I

00:34:16.800 mentioned

00:34:17.420 to you,

00:34:19.980 kshatriyas.

00:34:21.200 Our

00:34:21.420 audience

00:34:21.840 doesn't

00:34:22.200 know about

00:34:22.720 kshatriyas

00:34:23.340 yet,

00:34:23.660 so let's

00:34:24.020 keep them

00:34:24.440 out of

00:34:24.740 it for

00:34:25.020 now.

00:34:25.400 Okay,

00:34:25.880 well,

00:34:26.640 being a

00:34:27.500 communist

00:34:27.860 was an

00:34:28.620 honor and

00:34:29.180 a reward

00:34:29.740 in the

00:34:30.140 20s.

00:34:31.260 But by

00:34:31.660 my time,

00:34:32.620 it was

00:34:33.080 more like

00:34:33.680 if you

00:34:34.420 want to

00:34:34.820 be in

00:34:35.220 charge,

00:34:36.020 you need

00:34:36.400 to be

00:34:36.700 a

00:34:36.880 communist.

00:34:37.700 And if

00:34:38.200 you want

00:34:38.560 to be

00:34:38.820 a

00:34:39.000 communist,

00:34:39.920 it's

00:34:40.240 preferable

00:34:40.840 that you

00:34:41.360 are from

00:34:41.920 as ordinary

00:34:43.240 a background

00:34:44.060 as possible.

00:34:45.580 If your

00:34:46.040 parents were

00:34:46.660 members of

00:34:47.420 the

00:34:47.620 intelligentsia,

00:34:48.500 your chances

00:34:49.060 of becoming

00:34:49.820 a communist

00:34:50.460 were pretty

00:34:51.280 slim.

00:34:52.240 If your

00:34:52.680 parents were

00:34:53.340 peasants,

00:34:54.380 then your

00:34:54.840 chances were

00:34:55.560 better.

00:34:56.320 Your class

00:34:56.940 background

00:34:57.480 predetermined

00:34:58.320 your opportunities.

00:34:59.540 Your family

00:35:00.240 class background,

00:35:01.500 yes.

00:35:02.160 You yourself

00:35:02.920 could have

00:35:03.400 been a

00:35:03.840 PhD.

00:35:04.820 But if your

00:35:05.480 mom and dad

00:35:06.220 were workers,

00:35:07.100 you could be a

00:35:07.780 communist.

00:35:08.580 I think for our

00:35:09.440 audience, this will

00:35:10.500 ring a lot of

00:35:11.220 bells, given

00:35:11.940 what's happening

00:35:12.900 in modern

00:35:13.960 Western society

00:35:15.140 where your

00:35:16.520 genetic roots

00:35:17.820 predetermine

00:35:19.460 which university

00:35:20.640 you can go

00:35:21.300 to, what

00:35:21.780 grades you'll

00:35:22.440 need, etc.

00:35:23.600 My suspicion

00:35:24.780 is that the

00:35:25.960 modern West,

00:35:27.860 especially the

00:35:28.940 US, is a

00:35:29.960 sort of copy

00:35:31.040 of the

00:35:31.640 Soviet Union.

00:35:32.940 I have that

00:35:33.520 same suspicion.

00:35:34.360 I even wrote

00:35:34.880 a book about

00:35:35.600 it.

00:35:36.120 The smell

00:35:36.840 is the

00:35:37.400 same.

00:35:37.980 Yes, we'll

00:35:38.660 come back to

00:35:39.140 that.

00:35:39.520 But I think

00:35:40.340 the issue

00:35:41.080 is in

00:35:41.560 socialism.

00:35:42.220 It's the

00:35:42.860 same mistakes

00:35:43.680 being made,

00:35:44.400 the ones

00:35:45.220 we've been

00:35:45.760 discussing.

00:35:46.800 Lack of

00:35:47.360 feedback.

00:35:48.300 Lack of

00:35:48.900 feedback.

00:35:50.180 Let's come

00:35:50.860 back to your

00:35:51.560 life story and

00:35:52.740 communism.

00:35:53.560 You made the

00:35:54.260 point, and I

00:35:54.940 emphasized your

00:35:56.000 point, that

00:35:57.660 the society

00:35:59.740 in which you

00:36:00.960 lived, the

00:36:03.300 family you were

00:36:04.080 born into,

00:36:05.080 largely predetermined

00:36:06.440 the options you

00:36:07.100 had in your

00:36:07.560 life.

00:36:07.860 To a large

00:36:08.880 extent, yes.

00:36:10.600 We're talking

00:36:11.260 about the

00:36:11.980 downsides, not

00:36:13.520 the upsides.

00:36:14.400 there were a

00:36:15.500 lot of

00:36:15.900 upsides as

00:36:16.800 well.

00:36:17.680 So, for

00:36:18.040 example,

00:36:18.720 Dima, my

00:36:20.080 classmate who's

00:36:21.180 visiting me

00:36:22.080 soon, who

00:36:23.220 like me, won

00:36:24.140 a gold medal,

00:36:25.800 in his case

00:36:26.640 for mathematics,

00:36:28.360 he was an

00:36:29.200 excellent

00:36:29.840 mathematician,

00:36:31.220 but he was

00:36:31.880 Jewish,

00:36:33.180 officially

00:36:34.000 Jewish.

00:36:34.700 What does

00:36:35.100 that mean?

00:36:35.860 It means

00:36:36.700 his paper

00:36:38.140 said he was

00:36:39.060 Jewish.

00:36:39.700 Jewish.

00:36:40.700 There were a

00:36:41.100 lot of Jews

00:36:41.920 whose papers

00:36:42.800 said it was

00:36:44.180 different.

00:36:45.220 I should

00:36:45.540 explain that

00:36:46.060 in the

00:36:46.380 USSR, your

00:36:47.780 passport had

00:36:48.620 two fields.

00:36:49.700 One was

00:36:50.080 nationality, and

00:36:51.700 the other

00:36:52.000 one?

00:36:54.340 You

00:36:54.940 surprised me.

00:36:56.080 What do you

00:36:56.400 mean?

00:36:56.660 Just your

00:36:57.520 nationality.

00:36:59.480 Hold on.

00:37:00.980 Field number

00:37:02.380 five in your

00:37:03.600 passport was

00:37:04.540 your nationality.

00:37:05.840 You mean the

00:37:06.540 internal passport

00:37:07.340 and the one

00:37:08.300 for foreign

00:37:08.740 travel?

00:37:09.460 Did it say

00:37:10.400 you were a

00:37:11.380 Soviet citizen?

00:37:12.440 It didn't have

00:37:13.180 field number

00:37:13.760 five.

00:37:14.380 Right.

00:37:15.140 It just said

00:37:15.620 Soviet citizen,

00:37:16.740 but your

00:37:17.160 internal passport

00:37:18.340 said the Jew,

00:37:19.620 Greek, Russian,

00:37:20.940 Ukrainian, or

00:37:21.920 whatever.

00:37:23.220 In the

00:37:23.640 internal

00:37:24.080 passport,

00:37:25.340 okay, so

00:37:26.740 your passport

00:37:27.680 actually recorded

00:37:28.940 what in

00:37:30.600 English we

00:37:31.460 would call

00:37:32.040 ethnicity.

00:37:33.740 Ethnos is

00:37:34.720 an important

00:37:35.360 term.

00:37:35.840 we'll discuss

00:37:36.520 later.

00:37:36.920 So your

00:37:37.420 ethnicity was

00:37:38.520 in your

00:37:38.880 passport?

00:37:39.720 Your

00:37:40.220 ethnic

00:37:41.580 background.

00:37:43.480 So I, for

00:37:44.180 example, am

00:37:45.160 half

00:37:45.580 Ponte

00:37:46.080 Greek, half

00:37:47.040 Polish,

00:37:48.420 Riga,

00:37:49.380 Ukrainian

00:37:49.960 Jew.

00:37:50.640 And the

00:37:51.380 difference

00:37:52.120 between you?

00:37:54.080 Even though

00:37:55.080 I'm thoroughly

00:37:55.800 Russian.

00:37:56.560 Culturally?

00:37:57.600 Culturally.

00:37:59.100 No, I am

00:37:59.880 not part of

00:38:01.000 the Ponte

00:38:01.760 Greek or

00:38:02.680 the Jewish

00:38:03.460 ethnos.

00:38:04.460 So we

00:38:04.920 were saying

00:38:05.540 that your

00:38:06.080 classmate was

00:38:07.060 officially a

00:38:07.920 Jew.

00:38:08.880 So what

00:38:09.360 did that

00:38:09.960 mean?

00:38:10.800 So he

00:38:12.880 was thrown

00:38:13.740 out.

00:38:15.080 When he

00:38:16.060 went to

00:38:16.820 apply to

00:38:17.720 Moscow

00:38:18.400 University,

00:38:19.360 he was

00:38:20.400 treated very

00:38:21.640 unjustly.

00:38:23.660 They failed

00:38:24.460 him at the

00:38:25.380 entrance exam,

00:38:27.280 but in such

00:38:28.760 a way that

00:38:29.600 he couldn't

00:38:30.540 appeal.

00:38:31.220 even

00:38:32.180 even though

00:38:32.500 he was

00:38:32.920 an A

00:38:33.260 grade

00:38:33.440 student

00:38:33.940 and

00:38:34.320 deserved

00:38:34.760 an A.

00:38:35.180 Because he

00:38:35.760 was officially

00:38:36.580 a Jew?

00:38:37.480 At the

00:38:37.880 time,

00:38:38.320 the

00:38:38.420 Mechanics

00:38:38.920 and

00:38:39.100 Mathematics

00:38:39.700 Faculty of

00:38:40.480 Moscow State

00:38:41.200 University

00:38:41.800 took zero

00:38:42.500 Jews.

00:38:43.180 Why?

00:38:43.800 Because the

00:38:44.560 head of

00:38:45.100 faculty made

00:38:46.140 that decision.

00:38:47.740 He was an

00:38:48.420 anti-Semite,

00:38:49.480 a communist

00:38:50.200 anti-Semite.

00:38:51.380 Why did a

00:38:52.100 communist

00:38:52.440 society,

00:38:53.480 a society

00:38:54.260 where everyone

00:38:55.000 is equal,

00:38:56.080 tolerate such

00:38:56.920 people in

00:38:57.560 senior leadership

00:38:58.260 roles?

00:39:00.320 You know,

00:39:01.060 anti-Semitism

00:39:01.800 is an

00:39:02.760 element of

00:39:03.700 nationalism.

00:39:05.320 The product

00:39:05.900 of nationalism

00:39:06.860 is an

00:39:07.980 antipathy

00:39:08.600 towards other

00:39:09.460 groups.

00:39:10.520 Jews were

00:39:11.760 a particularly

00:39:12.440 prominent group

00:39:13.520 in the Russian

00:39:14.200 Empire.

00:39:15.340 They were

00:39:15.680 particularly

00:39:16.260 visible.

00:39:17.140 So if

00:39:17.560 instead of

00:39:18.280 becoming a

00:39:19.000 socialist,

00:39:20.040 someone was

00:39:20.720 a nationalist,

00:39:21.880 then that

00:39:22.620 person became

00:39:23.480 an anti-Semite.

00:39:25.240 That's what

00:39:26.060 I'm asking.

00:39:27.240 The Soviet

00:39:28.080 Union was

00:39:28.760 a society

00:39:29.480 founded on

00:39:30.360 the idea

00:39:30.820 of friendship

00:39:31.580 of the

00:39:32.060 peoples,

00:39:32.920 intolerance

00:39:33.680 of intergroup

00:39:34.500 conflict.

00:39:35.820 We had jokes

00:39:36.240 about the

00:39:36.640 idea of

00:39:37.040 friendship

00:39:37.300 of the

00:39:37.620 peoples.

00:39:38.280 They asked

00:39:38.600 an Armenian,

00:39:39.100 what is

00:39:39.340 friendship

00:39:39.620 of the

00:39:39.940 peoples to

00:39:40.360 you?

00:39:40.740 He says,

00:39:41.400 it is when

00:39:42.640 a Georgian,

00:39:44.380 an Armenian,

00:39:45.320 a Pole,

00:39:45.940 a Frenchman,

00:39:46.920 and a Russian

00:39:47.580 get together,

00:39:48.940 have a glass

00:39:49.520 of vodka

00:39:50.100 together,

00:39:51.040 and go and

00:39:51.740 beat up

00:39:52.260 an Azerbejani.

00:39:55.760 So what

00:39:56.640 you're saying

00:39:57.340 is Soviet

00:39:58.020 society

00:39:58.640 didn't

00:39:59.140 succeed?

00:40:01.000 It tried

00:40:01.940 everything it

00:40:03.260 could initially

00:40:05.380 to accept

00:40:06.400 everyone and

00:40:07.620 to stunt

00:40:08.340 nationalism,

00:40:09.900 but stunting

00:40:11.160 nationalism takes

00:40:12.800 centuries,

00:40:14.020 not decades.

00:40:15.640 The Soviet

00:40:16.240 Union ran

00:40:17.380 out of time.

00:40:18.420 And that's

00:40:19.980 why,

00:40:21.040 even towards

00:40:22.020 the end

00:40:22.580 of the

00:40:22.920 Soviet Union,

00:40:23.900 which is the

00:40:24.380 period we're

00:40:24.920 talking about,

00:40:26.100 someone would

00:40:26.980 be prevented

00:40:27.800 from studying

00:40:28.860 because he

00:40:29.660 was officially

00:40:30.400 a Jew.

00:40:31.360 Yes,

00:40:32.140 at the

00:40:33.180 chemistry

00:40:33.520 faculty where

00:40:34.300 I studied,

00:40:34.900 we had

00:40:35.180 official Jews,

00:40:36.160 but the

00:40:36.460 mechanics and

00:40:37.100 maths faculty

00:40:37.840 didn't.

00:40:38.700 Dima,

00:40:39.060 my classmate,

00:40:39.740 was extremely

00:40:40.340 disappointed.

00:40:41.460 He returned

00:40:41.920 to Tashkent to

00:40:42.680 study.

00:40:43.460 Eventually,

00:40:43.800 he became a

00:40:44.460 successful

00:40:44.900 mathematician

00:40:45.440 in the U.S.

00:40:46.740 And now he

00:40:47.480 watches this

00:40:48.280 show,

00:40:48.720 so big

00:40:49.220 shout out

00:40:49.800 to him.

00:40:50.840 We started

00:40:51.640 this part

00:40:52.280 of the

00:40:52.540 conversation

00:40:53.200 with me

00:40:54.000 asking if

00:40:55.300 you were a

00:40:55.860 communist and

00:40:56.600 you said you

00:40:57.220 didn't join

00:40:57.920 the party

00:40:58.500 because you

00:40:59.000 didn't want

00:40:59.620 to.

00:41:00.440 I'd like to

00:41:01.060 get a better

00:41:01.540 idea of what

00:41:02.400 you meant.

00:41:03.080 I would have

00:41:03.700 had to do

00:41:04.460 a lot of

00:41:05.100 things I

00:41:05.700 didn't want

00:41:06.500 to do if

00:41:07.260 I'd become

00:41:07.980 a communist.

00:41:09.400 For example,

00:41:10.880 I wasn't a

00:41:12.080 communist in

00:41:12.940 terms of my

00:41:13.720 beliefs, but I

00:41:14.680 would have had

00:41:15.340 to act like a

00:41:16.280 communist.

00:41:17.520 How did a

00:41:18.220 communist have

00:41:18.820 to act?

00:41:19.820 It's a long

00:41:20.740 story.

00:41:22.200 It was

00:41:22.780 different for

00:41:23.840 everyone.

00:41:25.360 You had to

00:41:26.060 obey an extra

00:41:27.240 layer of party

00:41:28.600 managers, give

00:41:30.500 orders to

00:41:31.460 others, take

00:41:33.020 on lots of

00:41:33.880 social work.

00:41:35.400 I didn't always

00:41:36.600 want to do

00:41:37.380 that.

00:41:38.060 What does

00:41:38.640 social work

00:41:39.520 mean?

00:41:40.400 I'll give you

00:41:41.220 an example.

00:41:42.320 We started

00:41:42.860 talking about

00:41:43.780 my life

00:41:45.520 journey, and

00:41:46.220 we haven't

00:41:46.740 yet got to

00:41:47.360 university.

00:41:48.460 At uni, I

00:41:49.140 had social

00:41:49.700 work that I

00:41:50.440 voluntarily took

00:41:51.320 on.

00:41:52.080 In my first

00:41:52.740 year, I

00:41:53.160 made a big

00:41:53.700 mistake.

00:41:54.620 I signed

00:41:55.100 up for a

00:41:55.680 so-called

00:41:56.180 operations unit,

00:41:57.720 like a

00:41:58.340 student police

00:41:59.600 officer.

00:42:01.800 Why does a

00:42:03.020 university need

00:42:04.300 student police

00:42:05.280 officers?

00:42:06.000 to maintain

00:42:07.380 order, to

00:42:08.960 be on

00:42:09.680 watch in

00:42:10.760 dorms, to

00:42:12.160 prevent crime,

00:42:14.380 etc.

00:42:15.920 I just want

00:42:16.680 our audience

00:42:17.180 to understand,

00:42:18.940 there were

00:42:19.460 students whose

00:42:20.640 job it was to

00:42:21.780 go around the

00:42:22.640 university and

00:42:23.780 maintain order.

00:42:25.120 It was their

00:42:26.540 social work, which

00:42:27.940 was additional to

00:42:28.840 their studies and

00:42:29.640 everything else.

00:42:30.780 So in addition to

00:42:31.620 their studies, two

00:42:32.440 nights a week, they'd

00:42:33.580 have to be on duty in

00:42:34.640 this operations unit.

00:42:35.940 And it was a big

00:42:36.980 mistake because?

00:42:38.560 Because it was not

00:42:41.600 a pleasant job for

00:42:43.080 me to do.

00:42:44.420 Because you had to

00:42:45.680 use force against

00:42:47.020 people.

00:42:48.260 They may well have

00:42:49.400 been guilty, but I

00:42:50.760 had no desire to be

00:42:52.360 the one to tie their

00:42:53.780 hands.

00:42:54.880 I didn't want to be

00:42:56.160 a policeman.

00:42:56.980 So being a

00:42:58.460 communist and a

00:42:59.320 party member meant

00:43:00.420 at some point you'd

00:43:01.460 become a weapon of

00:43:02.520 the system.

00:43:03.480 Yes.

00:43:04.640 a weapon of the

00:43:05.740 system, you had

00:43:07.360 less freedom.

00:43:08.320 Against your fellow

00:43:09.220 citizens.

00:43:09.560 For example, it might

00:43:10.880 have been against

00:43:11.860 wrongdoers, but it's

00:43:13.760 just not my nature.

00:43:16.560 Some people like

00:43:18.040 beating up people who

00:43:19.920 deserve it and some

00:43:21.700 don't.

00:43:22.720 So being a party

00:43:24.240 member meant either

00:43:25.220 physically or

00:43:25.980 metaphorically beating

00:43:27.220 people.

00:43:27.840 It was like serving in

00:43:29.280 the army.

00:43:30.460 I am not a military

00:43:31.460 person.

00:43:32.660 I can do my duty.

00:43:33.740 For example, when I

00:43:34.820 was a student, we

00:43:36.260 did reservist

00:43:37.020 training.

00:43:37.660 Based on that, I

00:43:38.420 became a reserve

00:43:39.260 lieutenant.

00:43:42.260 But honestly, it's

00:43:44.520 not my nature.

00:43:47.340 Okay, got it.

00:43:48.620 I'm also not a

00:43:51.200 police officer.

00:43:52.560 But I did sign up

00:43:53.760 for this operations

00:43:54.660 unit and worked

00:43:55.720 there up until the

00:43:56.840 1980 Olympics as a

00:43:58.920 member of the

00:43:59.660 Olympics police force.

00:44:00.960 We were even on

00:44:02.220 duty in Red Square

00:44:03.320 at one point, which

00:44:04.940 was very interesting.

00:44:06.100 But after that, I

00:44:07.520 quit.

00:44:08.840 You realized it

00:44:10.060 wasn't for you.

00:44:11.380 It wasn't for me.

00:44:12.820 Then I became editor

00:44:13.880 of the wall

00:44:14.520 newspaper.

00:44:15.440 Your audience knows

00:44:16.300 what that is.

00:44:16.980 No.

00:44:17.240 Wall newspapers were

00:44:18.540 small private

00:44:19.580 newspapers published

00:44:20.720 on a piece of

00:44:21.500 cardboard on the

00:44:23.240 wall somewhere.

00:44:24.040 I became an editor

00:44:27.800 of the chemistry

00:44:29.080 faculty's wall

00:44:31.200 newspaper and that

00:44:32.920 turned out to be

00:44:33.980 important social work

00:44:35.580 and because of that,

00:44:37.100 I was asked to be a

00:44:38.400 member of the

00:44:39.200 student council.

00:44:40.520 Because of that, I

00:44:41.940 was allowed to go to

00:44:43.440 Berlin as part of a

00:44:45.240 student construction

00:44:46.380 brigade.

00:44:48.360 In the USSR, if you

00:44:50.780 were allowed to go

00:44:52.060 abroad, you were very

00:44:53.620 lucky.

00:44:54.880 Not everyone got so

00:44:56.460 lucky.

00:44:57.440 Why weren't you

00:44:58.300 allowed to go abroad?

00:45:00.400 Thus, that was the

00:45:02.260 deal.

00:45:03.320 It went something

00:45:04.140 like this.

00:45:05.280 Our people live here.

00:45:07.600 Other places are

00:45:08.640 wrong and dangerous.

00:45:09.980 Anyone who goes there

00:45:11.040 must be a professional

00:45:12.160 trained to ensure they

00:45:14.100 are not affected by it.

00:45:16.060 Going to other

00:45:16.700 countries is harmful

00:45:17.740 for Soviet citizens.

00:45:18.880 Why?

00:45:19.740 Because you'll be

00:45:20.520 indoctrinated with

00:45:21.520 harmful ideas.

00:45:22.560 Such as?

00:45:23.200 That America is

00:45:24.660 better than the

00:45:25.500 Soviet Union.

00:45:26.680 That's indoctrination?

00:45:28.380 Of course, it's a

00:45:29.080 lie.

00:45:29.460 They'll indoctrinate

00:45:30.140 you otherwise.

00:45:30.900 That was the

00:45:31.420 official line.

00:45:33.180 I was allowed to

00:45:34.540 go to East

00:45:35.520 Germany because it

00:45:37.200 had and still

00:45:38.380 has strong

00:45:40.340 links with

00:45:41.180 Russia.

00:45:42.580 It was a very

00:45:43.620 friendly place

00:45:45.080 with a similar

00:45:46.760 mindset, but it

00:45:49.360 was still a

00:45:50.440 foreign place.

00:45:51.580 So you were

00:45:52.800 allowed to go

00:45:53.580 there as a

00:45:54.140 reward for your

00:45:54.880 achievements?

00:45:56.360 I was allowed

00:45:57.240 to go there

00:45:58.360 because I was

00:45:59.660 considered worthy,

00:46:02.240 reliable,

00:46:03.320 I did important

00:46:04.840 social work,

00:46:06.460 I was a member

00:46:07.580 of the student

00:46:08.520 council.

00:46:09.860 You couldn't be

00:46:10.860 corrupted by the

00:46:12.020 enemy's hostile

00:46:12.840 ideology.

00:46:14.160 Okay, I'm just

00:46:15.480 trying to finish

00:46:16.160 this thread of the

00:46:17.180 conversation.

00:46:17.860 It was a pain

00:46:20.720 in the ass.

00:46:22.320 Not awful.

00:46:23.260 Being a party

00:46:23.740 member?

00:46:24.100 It was a pain

00:46:24.900 in the ass.

00:46:25.860 Also, my parents

00:46:27.260 weren't members of

00:46:28.780 the proletariat.

00:46:30.260 My parents were

00:46:31.140 both lecturers,

00:46:33.300 scientists, the

00:46:34.880 intelligentsia.

00:46:36.520 They weren't from

00:46:37.620 the proletariat.

00:46:39.200 I see.

00:46:40.080 It made things

00:46:40.820 hard for me.

00:46:41.780 For me to become a

00:46:42.720 communist, it would

00:46:43.740 always be a pain in

00:46:44.700 the ass.

00:46:46.080 Forgive the

00:46:46.680 expression, I

00:46:47.940 wasn't prepared to

00:46:48.800 do that.

00:46:49.840 Whereas another

00:46:50.780 classmate of mine

00:46:51.860 with whom I

00:46:52.820 participated in

00:46:53.800 chemistry Olympics,

00:46:55.080 he was better than

00:46:55.920 me and a couple

00:46:56.900 of years younger,

00:46:57.940 he was enrolled

00:46:58.880 into the party

00:47:00.120 in his first year

00:47:01.140 of university.

00:47:02.660 By force.

00:47:03.640 What do you

00:47:03.960 mean?

00:47:04.440 He was told,

00:47:06.060 we've decided

00:47:06.880 you are worthy

00:47:08.080 and you have been

00:47:09.580 accepted into

00:47:10.740 the party.

00:47:11.980 What would have

00:47:12.680 happened if he'd

00:47:13.500 said no thanks?

00:47:14.360 He would have

00:47:15.440 been in so much

00:47:16.380 trouble, he never

00:47:17.440 would have said

00:47:18.260 that in the first

00:47:19.320 place.

00:47:20.180 He would have

00:47:20.680 been expelled.

00:47:21.800 So he understood

00:47:22.840 if he refused to

00:47:23.660 join the party,

00:47:24.380 he'd be punished?

00:47:25.620 He understood

00:47:26.460 he'd be kicked

00:47:27.660 out of university

00:47:28.740 and he'd become

00:47:29.960 a labourer.

00:47:30.860 And then eventually

00:47:31.860 he'd probably have

00:47:33.380 to join the party

00:47:34.420 anyway.

00:47:35.300 But as a labourer...

00:47:36.680 So he joined

00:47:38.300 the party,

00:47:39.920 he eventually

00:47:40.620 got the

00:47:41.760 Lenin bursary.

00:47:42.540 the Lenin

00:47:43.640 bursary

00:47:44.080 was 2.5

00:47:45.100 times the

00:47:45.580 usual

00:47:45.900 bursary.

00:47:47.080 Because he

00:47:47.600 had excellent

00:47:48.160 grades and

00:47:48.760 was a party

00:47:49.380 member,

00:47:49.940 it was great

00:47:50.540 for him,

00:47:51.240 but he had

00:47:51.800 to do a lot

00:47:52.380 of work

00:47:52.760 for it.

00:47:53.600 Do a lot

00:47:54.100 of work

00:47:54.500 or eat

00:47:54.860 a lot

00:47:55.140 of shit.

00:47:55.820 There's a

00:47:56.280 difference.

00:47:57.420 A lot

00:47:57.760 of work

00:47:58.160 as a

00:47:58.480 communist.

00:47:59.060 I'm certain

00:47:59.540 it involved

00:48:00.100 things he

00:48:00.560 didn't want

00:48:01.080 to do.

00:48:02.080 So what

00:48:02.540 I said...

00:48:03.540 By this

00:48:04.220 point,

00:48:04.560 we weren't

00:48:05.380 quite the

00:48:05.980 faithful

00:48:06.360 communists.

00:48:07.680 We were

00:48:08.040 quite

00:48:08.520 atheistic

00:48:10.320 in relation

00:48:11.300 to the

00:48:11.880 religion

00:48:12.340 of

00:48:12.680 communism.

00:48:13.780 You know,

00:48:14.340 the funny

00:48:14.800 story I

00:48:15.500 told you

00:48:15.960 about the

00:48:16.580 coats with

00:48:17.180 the holes.

00:48:18.660 It was

00:48:19.100 hard to

00:48:19.540 have faith

00:48:20.060 in that.

00:48:20.940 Yeah.

00:48:21.700 You'd

00:48:22.080 see it in

00:48:22.680 one city,

00:48:23.540 go to the

00:48:24.160 Lenin

00:48:24.460 museum in

00:48:25.420 another city

00:48:26.200 and see the

00:48:26.840 exact same

00:48:27.440 coat there.

00:48:28.120 It's

00:48:28.320 surprising.

00:48:28.800 So we're

00:48:30.380 now rapidly

00:48:31.280 approaching the

00:48:32.240 collapse of

00:48:32.880 the Soviet

00:48:33.400 Union.

00:48:35.140 Before we

00:48:35.780 do, let's

00:48:36.320 complete our

00:48:37.000 discussion of

00:48:37.780 the Soviet

00:48:38.300 communist

00:48:38.800 period by

00:48:39.820 touching on

00:48:40.580 the Cold

00:48:41.060 War.

00:48:42.360 Broadway's

00:48:42.920 smash hit,

00:48:43.860 the Neil

00:48:44.200 Diamond

00:48:44.500 musical,

00:48:45.280 A Beautiful

00:48:45.880 Noise,

00:48:46.740 is coming to

00:48:47.480 Toronto.

00:48:48.120 The true

00:48:48.520 story of a

00:48:49.200 kid from

00:48:49.600 Brooklyn destined

00:48:50.480 for something

00:48:51.080 more, featuring

00:48:51.920 all the songs

00:48:52.640 you love,

00:48:53.400 including

00:48:53.760 America,

00:48:54.680 Forever in

00:48:55.160 Blue Jeans,

00:48:55.920 and Sweet

00:48:56.380 Caroline.

00:48:57.380 Like Jersey

00:48:58.000 Boys and

00:48:58.620 Beautiful,

00:48:59.220 the next

00:48:59.680 musical

00:49:00.160 mega hit

00:49:00.780 is here,

00:49:01.480 the Neil

00:49:01.880 Diamond

00:49:02.240 musical,

00:49:03.060 A Beautiful

00:49:03.620 Noise,

00:49:04.280 April 28

00:49:05.060 through June

00:49:05.640 7th,

00:49:06.220 2026,

00:49:07.300 The Princess

00:49:07.760 of Wales

00:49:08.340 Theatre.

00:49:09.220 Get tickets

00:49:09.720 at

00:49:09.920 murvish.com.

00:49:14.400 Then we

00:49:15.340 should start

00:49:16.100 with World

00:49:16.740 War II,

00:49:17.520 not the

00:49:18.140 Cold War.

00:49:19.680 Okay,

00:49:20.480 say what

00:49:20.980 you wanted

00:49:21.520 to say

00:49:22.060 about that.

00:49:24.000 I just

00:49:24.920 want to

00:49:25.360 say that

00:49:25.880 the entire

00:49:26.480 history of

00:49:27.300 this socialist

00:49:28.000 state,

00:49:28.620 began with

00:49:29.540 the Russian

00:49:30.060 revolution.

00:49:31.720 Then the

00:49:32.420 global reforms,

00:49:34.400 which included

00:49:35.240 Stalin's purges,

00:49:36.980 which cleaned

00:49:38.400 out all the

00:49:40.400 country's leaders

00:49:41.240 in three

00:49:41.860 sequential waves.

00:49:44.040 I'm sure the

00:49:44.680 point of the

00:49:45.340 purges was to

00:49:46.880 eliminate the

00:49:48.140 revolutionaries.

00:49:49.660 They weren't

00:49:50.320 needed anymore.

00:49:52.000 Why would you

00:49:52.980 want revolutionaries

00:49:53.960 when you're

00:49:54.400 trying to

00:49:54.780 stabilize things?

00:49:56.540 A state

00:49:57.100 doesn't need

00:49:57.940 revolutionaries,

00:49:59.000 but creating a

00:49:59.920 state requires

00:50:00.720 revolutionaries.

00:50:02.180 That's why they

00:50:02.740 have to be

00:50:03.240 shot.

00:50:04.080 That's what

00:50:04.580 happened.

00:50:05.300 This was

00:50:05.820 Stalin's idea?

00:50:07.320 Not just

00:50:07.880 Stalin's.

00:50:08.840 Stalin would

00:50:09.480 have been

00:50:09.940 executed just

00:50:10.820 the same by

00:50:11.320 his rivals,

00:50:12.140 for the same

00:50:12.560 reasons.

00:50:13.300 For the same

00:50:14.080 reasons, yes.

00:50:15.360 But I wanted to

00:50:16.520 ask you about

00:50:17.420 the Cold War,

00:50:18.360 the period of

00:50:19.060 time we're

00:50:19.560 talking about,

00:50:20.980 the decline,

00:50:22.460 the growing

00:50:23.140 atheism towards

00:50:24.540 communist ideology

00:50:26.040 it occurred in

00:50:27.860 parallel with.

00:50:29.460 In the West,

00:50:30.500 this period is

00:50:31.480 seen as a

00:50:32.060 period of active

00:50:32.900 struggle with

00:50:34.080 the Soviet Union,

00:50:35.280 which it

00:50:35.640 basically was,

00:50:37.120 right?

00:50:37.920 Before that,

00:50:38.720 we fought against

00:50:39.520 Hitler and Nazi

00:50:40.380 Germany together.

00:50:41.520 Of course.

00:50:43.280 There were

00:50:44.100 lots of

00:50:45.040 other things

00:50:46.320 there was

00:50:47.480 a time

00:50:48.040 when the

00:50:48.740 Russian Empire

00:50:49.920 used its

00:50:51.360 fleet to

00:50:52.220 protect the

00:50:53.300 US from

00:50:54.140 Britain.

00:50:55.720 That's not

00:50:56.640 what I'm

00:50:57.100 talking about.

00:50:59.280 There were

00:51:00.340 many different

00:51:01.580 events in

00:51:02.540 history,

00:51:03.200 but inside

00:51:04.160 the Soviet

00:51:04.680 Union,

00:51:05.340 by this

00:51:05.760 point,

00:51:06.260 as I said,

00:51:07.680 this was

00:51:08.200 the Khrushchev-Breshne

00:51:09.320 period,

00:51:10.220 during which

00:51:11.460 there was a

00:51:12.160 decline.

00:51:13.480 So-called

00:51:13.900 stagnation.

00:51:15.600 Stagnation.

00:51:16.320 was after.

00:51:17.000 Stagnation was

00:51:17.800 the late

00:51:18.220 Brezhnev period.

00:51:20.440 What I'm

00:51:20.980 trying to

00:51:21.460 ask is

00:51:21.980 this.

00:51:23.800 Did you

00:51:24.360 have the

00:51:24.920 sense that

00:51:25.900 you lived in

00:51:26.520 a country that

00:51:27.300 was engaged

00:51:27.960 in a struggle

00:51:28.680 with a

00:51:29.140 mortal enemy?

00:51:31.480 I wouldn't

00:51:32.560 say I felt

00:51:33.480 we had a

00:51:34.280 mortal enemy.

00:51:35.800 This is a

00:51:36.500 very primitive

00:51:37.300 way of

00:51:38.000 thinking about

00:51:38.920 it, because

00:51:39.580 we can be

00:51:40.320 allies today,

00:51:41.320 and enemies

00:51:41.880 tomorrow.

00:51:42.760 We'll talk

00:51:43.360 about

00:51:43.700 civilizations

00:51:44.440 later.

00:51:45.480 We will,

00:51:46.740 we're rapidly

00:51:47.540 approaching the

00:51:48.360 period when

00:51:48.840 you left

00:51:49.200 Uzbekistan and

00:51:50.040 went to

00:51:50.360 Moscow State

00:51:50.960 University.

00:51:51.920 You were a

00:51:52.880 talented student,

00:51:54.480 especially in

00:51:55.340 natural sciences.

00:51:56.840 Chemistry was

00:51:57.820 your speciality.

00:51:59.320 Before I went

00:52:00.080 to grade seven,

00:52:02.040 I was given

00:52:02.960 a chemistry

00:52:03.640 textbook for

00:52:05.460 grade seven

00:52:06.140 and eight.

00:52:06.660 I read it

00:52:08.260 from cover

00:52:08.880 to cover

00:52:09.440 before school

00:52:10.180 even started,

00:52:11.260 because I

00:52:11.720 found it

00:52:12.200 fascinating.

00:52:13.520 Then I read

00:52:14.080 a lot of

00:52:14.580 other chemistry

00:52:15.340 books for

00:52:16.020 kids.

00:52:17.180 Then I

00:52:17.540 started reading

00:52:18.200 chemistry

00:52:18.700 books for

00:52:19.360 adults.

00:52:20.200 Then taking

00:52:21.100 part in

00:52:22.140 Olympiads,

00:52:23.580 I went to

00:52:24.540 Moscow,

00:52:25.380 because in

00:52:26.580 my last year

00:52:27.540 of school,

00:52:28.660 I got a

00:52:29.360 pretty good

00:52:29.960 result at

00:52:31.140 the old

00:52:31.580 Soviet

00:52:32.000 National

00:52:32.640 Chemistry

00:52:33.300 Olympiad,

00:52:34.100 and I was

00:52:35.060 invited to

00:52:35.960 be considered

00:52:36.820 to represent

00:52:37.920 the country

00:52:38.900 at the

00:52:39.500 International

00:52:40.220 Olympiad,

00:52:41.360 and everyone

00:52:42.140 in that group

00:52:43.220 was allowed

00:52:43.980 to join any

00:52:45.040 university in

00:52:46.480 the country

00:52:47.180 without taking

00:52:48.300 an entrance

00:52:49.060 exam.

00:52:50.340 I had a

00:52:50.960 choice to

00:52:51.500 make.

00:52:52.520 I thought

00:52:53.080 about going

00:52:53.780 back to

00:52:54.340 Tashkent.

00:52:55.520 It was

00:52:56.040 clear studying

00:52:57.080 chemistry.

00:52:58.720 There

00:52:59.020 wouldn't

00:52:59.500 work for

00:53:00.060 me, so

00:53:01.040 I would

00:53:01.840 end up

00:53:02.940 being a

00:53:04.080 doctor.

00:53:04.560 I had

00:53:06.120 an offer

00:53:06.920 to become

00:53:08.160 a surgeon.

00:53:09.780 There was

00:53:10.580 a wonderful

00:53:11.720 man, one

00:53:12.940 of the best

00:53:13.760 surgeons, who

00:53:15.140 was interested

00:53:16.040 in teaching

00:53:16.760 me from the

00:53:17.900 first year of

00:53:18.680 university.

00:53:20.360 Or I could

00:53:21.040 continue with

00:53:22.040 chemistry at

00:53:23.880 Moscow State

00:53:24.720 University.

00:53:26.280 After some

00:53:27.080 thought, I

00:53:28.260 picked the

00:53:28.860 capital.

00:53:29.300 the only

00:53:30.320 thing was

00:53:31.140 coming from

00:53:32.340 Tashkent with

00:53:33.820 its hot

00:53:34.380 climate, Moscow

00:53:35.660 winters were

00:53:36.820 horrible.

00:53:38.260 It was very

00:53:39.000 hard to get

00:53:39.840 used to them,

00:53:41.220 but obviously

00:53:42.040 I'm happy I

00:53:43.200 got the

00:53:44.000 education I

00:53:44.880 did, because

00:53:45.660 it was the

00:53:46.300 best university

00:53:47.260 in that era.

00:53:49.820 That was

00:53:50.520 good.

00:53:51.840 I wasn't the

00:53:52.960 best student

00:53:53.900 at my

00:53:54.660 faculty, but

00:53:55.880 I was

00:53:56.800 pretty good.

00:53:57.740 I am very

00:53:59.380 happy I

00:54:00.520 was taught

00:54:01.240 to think

00:54:02.060 like a

00:54:02.640 scientist.

00:54:04.460 It's not

00:54:05.180 the only

00:54:05.720 useful way

00:54:06.900 of thinking,

00:54:07.780 but you

00:54:08.080 cannot do

00:54:08.540 without it.

00:54:09.320 You have

00:54:09.640 to be able

00:54:10.180 to think

00:54:10.700 like a

00:54:11.140 scientist.

00:54:12.380 I'm glad

00:54:12.880 I was taught

00:54:13.520 this, and

00:54:14.400 to this day,

00:54:15.580 I remember

00:54:16.740 a lot of

00:54:17.360 chemistry.

00:54:19.740 I remember

00:54:20.680 when I was

00:54:21.220 a little boy,

00:54:22.440 if you wanted

00:54:23.160 to show off

00:54:24.040 a bit, you'd

00:54:25.460 tell me you

00:54:26.220 could make a

00:54:26.980 bomb out of

00:54:27.620 basic household

00:54:28.620 ingredients.

00:54:30.180 I can still

00:54:30.920 do that

00:54:31.500 now, but

00:54:32.420 what would

00:54:32.980 be the

00:54:33.360 point?

00:54:34.140 I understand.

00:54:35.220 What I mean

00:54:35.960 is you had a

00:54:36.480 practical

00:54:36.900 understanding of

00:54:37.840 chemistry.

00:54:38.980 Well, I

00:54:41.040 worked with

00:54:41.760 poisons, I

00:54:44.000 worked with

00:54:44.860 explosive and

00:54:47.080 radioactive

00:54:47.580 substances, I

00:54:48.960 worked with

00:54:49.580 bacteria and

00:54:50.660 viruses.

00:54:51.760 I was a

00:54:52.660 virologist when

00:54:53.940 I worked under

00:54:54.840 academician

00:54:55.700 Chumakov at

00:54:56.920 the institute.

00:54:58.620 All this

00:54:59.300 whilst you

00:54:59.880 were a

00:55:00.300 student?

00:55:01.320 Yes, and

00:55:02.120 my work

00:55:02.520 experience

00:55:02.920 training after

00:55:03.580 I graduated.

00:55:04.460 Where did

00:55:04.960 you do your

00:55:05.420 work experience?

00:55:06.740 The Polio and

00:55:07.580 Viral Encephalitis

00:55:08.660 Institute under

00:55:09.680 academician

00:55:10.340 Chumakov.

00:55:10.960 He was still

00:55:11.460 alive.

00:55:11.900 I worked in

00:55:12.400 his lab.

00:55:14.180 First of

00:55:14.900 all, we

00:55:16.820 regularly made

00:55:18.400 a special

00:55:19.540 flu vaccine

00:55:20.600 for the

00:55:21.280 elderly and

00:55:22.180 children, for

00:55:23.920 the most

00:55:24.620 vulnerable.

00:55:26.320 The rest of

00:55:27.320 the time we

00:55:28.120 did various

00:55:28.980 types of

00:55:29.680 research,

00:55:30.900 including

00:55:31.440 trying to

00:55:32.300 find a

00:55:33.360 universal

00:55:33.940 solution for

00:55:35.180 all viruses.

00:55:36.860 One of the

00:55:37.400 ideas we

00:55:38.040 tried made a

00:55:39.380 little progress,

00:55:40.200 but my work

00:55:40.840 experience ended,

00:55:42.060 and by that

00:55:42.640 point I wasn't

00:55:43.500 that interested

00:55:44.200 in it.

00:55:44.820 But we had

00:55:45.660 some initial

00:55:46.820 results.

00:55:48.400 It was very

00:55:49.380 interesting.

00:55:51.400 This is a

00:55:52.140 serious detour,

00:55:53.320 but I wanted

00:55:53.940 to discuss

00:55:54.800 this with

00:55:55.440 you.

00:55:56.080 We all

00:55:57.020 know that

00:55:58.840 in recent

00:55:59.980 years,

00:56:00.820 vaccines

00:56:01.360 became

00:56:02.080 controversial

00:56:03.140 because of

00:56:04.000 what was

00:56:04.500 done.

00:56:05.120 As someone

00:56:06.060 who made

00:56:06.740 vaccines,

00:56:07.680 what can

00:56:08.140 you say

00:56:08.620 about it?

00:56:09.920 I published

00:56:10.840 an article

00:56:11.680 about this

00:56:12.640 on Facebook

00:56:13.460 actually,

00:56:14.720 right at the

00:56:15.700 beginning of

00:56:16.500 the panic

00:56:17.260 about COVID.

00:56:19.200 My view

00:56:19.900 is that

00:56:20.720 vaccines

00:56:22.200 aren't some

00:56:23.980 sort of

00:56:24.640 sacred thing.

00:56:26.260 I don't think

00:56:27.020 we need to

00:56:27.720 vaccinate everyone

00:56:28.920 against everything.

00:56:30.320 I also don't

00:56:31.160 think every

00:56:32.080 vaccine is

00:56:32.840 dangerous,

00:56:33.760 and I don't

00:56:34.380 agree with

00:56:34.980 people who

00:56:35.700 are against

00:56:37.320 vaccines

00:56:38.100 outright.

00:56:40.040 My view

00:56:40.640 is based

00:56:41.280 on pragmatism.

00:56:42.920 If your

00:56:44.060 risk from

00:56:45.040 being ill

00:56:46.020 is significantly

00:56:47.340 higher than

00:56:48.420 your risk

00:56:48.980 from being

00:56:49.600 vaccinated,

00:56:50.620 you should

00:56:51.100 get vaccinated.

00:56:51.960 You need

00:56:52.900 to be

00:56:53.420 vaccinated

00:56:53.980 against

00:56:54.880 certain

00:56:56.120 illnesses

00:56:56.680 because you'll

00:56:57.780 die,

00:56:58.580 or you've

00:56:59.400 got a

00:56:59.820 30% chance

00:57:01.160 of dying

00:57:01.860 if you're

00:57:02.480 unvaccinated.

00:57:03.660 In that

00:57:04.200 case,

00:57:05.280 get the

00:57:05.780 shot,

00:57:06.140 but we

00:57:07.160 shouldn't

00:57:07.680 be

00:57:07.900 vaccinating

00:57:08.640 children

00:57:09.200 against

00:57:09.840 diseases

00:57:10.460 that

00:57:10.960 used

00:57:11.400 to

00:57:11.680 kill

00:57:11.980 kids

00:57:12.600 in

00:57:13.100 the

00:57:13.300 19th

00:57:13.940 century

00:57:14.420 because

00:57:15.780 we have

00:57:16.300 drugs.

00:57:17.360 A child

00:57:17.940 that catches

00:57:19.500 one of the

00:57:20.880 diseases,

00:57:22.000 like measles

00:57:22.840 or whooping

00:57:23.720 cough,

00:57:24.740 can be

00:57:25.080 treated.

00:57:25.960 In the

00:57:26.500 19th

00:57:26.960 century,

00:57:27.560 they would

00:57:27.880 have died,

00:57:28.860 but now

00:57:29.240 they can

00:57:29.620 get treated,

00:57:30.660 so they

00:57:31.180 don't need

00:57:31.640 to be

00:57:31.920 vaccinated.

00:57:33.200 There are

00:57:33.520 other nuances.

00:57:34.260 not all

00:57:35.460 vaccines last

00:57:36.300 your full

00:57:36.760 life.

00:57:37.840 Some

00:57:38.160 last

00:57:38.880 8 years

00:57:40.260 on average,

00:57:42.140 many

00:57:42.820 viruses

00:57:43.720 change

00:57:44.740 over time.

00:57:45.900 The flu

00:57:46.220 changes

00:57:46.680 every year,

00:57:47.860 so every

00:57:48.400 year you

00:57:48.820 need a

00:57:49.220 new vaccine

00:57:49.780 for it.

00:57:50.820 The cycle

00:57:51.440 lasts about

00:57:52.220 60 years

00:57:53.040 before an

00:57:53.660 old variant

00:57:54.280 comes back

00:57:55.360 again.

00:57:56.060 If you

00:57:56.400 were vaccinated

00:57:57.300 60 years

00:57:58.220 ago,

00:57:58.620 you might

00:57:59.060 be immune

00:57:59.720 to the

00:58:00.160 old variant

00:58:00.900 which is

00:58:01.340 now back.

00:58:02.640 COVID

00:58:02.920 is the

00:58:03.440 same,

00:58:03.760 but the

00:58:04.360 change

00:58:04.820 is less

00:58:05.580 frequent.

00:58:06.860 The flu

00:58:07.260 is different.

00:58:08.900 It changes

00:58:09.680 every year,

00:58:11.240 whereas COVID

00:58:12.180 changes in a

00:58:13.240 different way

00:58:14.100 and not as

00:58:15.700 frequently.

00:58:16.760 During the

00:58:17.420 pandemic,

00:58:18.100 there was

00:58:18.460 the idea

00:58:19.020 everyone had

00:58:19.940 to take

00:58:20.480 a vaccine.

00:58:21.600 That was

00:58:21.980 wrong.

00:58:22.560 The real

00:58:22.900 idea seems

00:58:23.540 to have

00:58:23.900 been to

00:58:24.360 earn money.

00:58:25.100 That's my

00:58:25.480 cynical view.

00:58:26.280 We didn't

00:58:26.660 need to

00:58:27.040 vaccinate

00:58:27.480 everyone.

00:58:28.200 What's

00:58:28.420 more,

00:58:29.020 there are

00:58:29.440 serious

00:58:30.060 concerns

00:58:30.840 that the

00:58:32.020 majority

00:58:32.520 of people

00:58:33.720 who died

00:58:34.600 of COVID

00:58:35.420 in hospitals

00:58:36.980 weren't

00:58:38.640 killed by

00:58:39.380 COVID.

00:58:40.620 They died

00:58:41.580 because of

00:58:43.040 incorrect

00:58:43.640 ventilation.

00:58:45.380 It's

00:58:45.740 complicated,

00:58:47.200 but my

00:58:48.120 view is

00:58:48.720 that it's

00:58:49.540 important to

00:58:50.420 get vaccinated

00:58:51.160 against dangerous

00:58:52.340 diseases,

00:58:53.300 especially regional

00:58:54.480 ones.

00:58:55.060 If you're

00:58:55.500 going somewhere,

00:58:56.400 you should get

00:58:57.080 vaccinated against

00:58:58.300 the lethal

00:58:58.860 disease that's

00:59:00.140 prevalent there.

00:59:01.060 But getting

00:59:02.140 vaccinated against

00:59:03.360 every disease

00:59:04.120 possible is

00:59:04.940 also wrong.

00:59:06.140 You don't

00:59:06.480 need to do

00:59:06.980 that.

00:59:08.200 One of the

00:59:09.100 things that

00:59:09.640 people are

00:59:10.240 saying now

00:59:10.980 is that

00:59:11.600 they were

00:59:13.060 conducting

00:59:13.840 gain-of-function

00:59:14.960 research in

00:59:16.020 a lab in

00:59:16.760 China.

00:59:18.320 I don't know

00:59:18.900 if you're

00:59:19.300 familiar with

00:59:20.100 it, but

00:59:20.500 it's when

00:59:21.440 the virus is

00:59:22.440 manipulated in

00:59:23.740 such a way

00:59:24.640 that it is

00:59:25.880 enhanced or

00:59:26.900 something is

00:59:27.600 added to

00:59:28.460 it.

00:59:28.740 it's not

00:59:29.900 just the

00:59:30.360 Chinese who

00:59:30.920 are doing

00:59:31.380 such research.

00:59:32.580 I disapprove

00:59:33.300 of this very

00:59:34.000 strongly.

00:59:35.360 My view is

00:59:36.000 that it's

00:59:36.520 one area

00:59:37.700 of research

00:59:38.640 that should

00:59:39.260 be voluntarily

00:59:40.080 discontinued

00:59:41.200 by all

00:59:42.200 scientists

00:59:43.060 coming together

00:59:44.580 and deciding

00:59:45.560 that we

00:59:46.380 won't do

00:59:47.040 such research

00:59:48.160 because it

00:59:49.180 can harm

00:59:49.940 humanity.

00:59:51.780 We may

00:59:52.300 mean well,

00:59:53.740 but the

00:59:54.300 result will

00:59:55.140 be harmful.

00:59:56.340 We want

00:59:56.840 more knowledge,

00:59:57.780 but will

00:59:58.720 create

00:59:59.300 disaster.

01:00:00.520 The same

01:00:00.920 is true

01:00:01.480 of serious

01:00:02.280 modification

01:00:03.220 of humans.

01:00:05.100 It would

01:00:05.580 be a great

01:00:06.340 evil, even

01:00:07.600 though the

01:00:08.800 reason people

01:00:09.520 will do

01:00:09.980 this will

01:00:10.460 be positive.

01:00:11.720 I don't

01:00:12.180 think we

01:00:12.580 should be

01:00:12.960 doing this.

01:00:16.320 Do people

01:00:17.340 do such

01:00:18.140 research because

01:00:19.160 of the

01:00:19.640 arrogance of

01:00:20.480 scientists who

01:00:21.400 think we'll

01:00:22.400 do it because

01:00:23.200 we can?

01:00:25.200 There are

01:00:25.620 people who do

01:00:26.320 it for that

01:00:26.940 reason, but

01:00:28.240 I think the

01:00:28.820 real reason

01:00:29.480 is that there

01:00:30.540 are people

01:00:31.100 who are

01:00:31.580 willing to

01:00:32.140 pay for

01:00:32.600 such research.

01:00:33.540 Why is

01:00:33.920 that?

01:00:34.340 In the

01:00:34.760 hope of

01:00:36.000 making more

01:00:36.820 money.

01:00:38.060 During your

01:00:38.900 work experience

01:00:39.880 training, you

01:00:40.840 worked with

01:00:41.540 explosive

01:00:42.200 substances,

01:00:43.360 bacteria, and

01:00:44.440 so on.

01:00:45.840 Do I have

01:00:46.800 it right that

01:00:48.180 after that,

01:00:49.440 you worked at

01:00:50.340 a nuclear

01:00:50.880 facility?

01:00:51.560 Yep, it

01:00:54.020 was part of

01:00:55.600 the Nuclear

01:00:56.660 Physics

01:00:57.540 Institute in

01:00:59.060 Tashkent.

01:01:01.380 We handled

01:01:02.620 radioactive

01:01:03.960 materials there

01:01:05.160 and made

01:01:05.760 radioactive

01:01:06.320 products that

01:01:07.400 were sold to

01:01:08.300 hospitals.

01:01:10.180 Sold in the

01:01:11.780 Soviet meaning

01:01:12.780 of the term.

01:01:14.620 The state

01:01:15.280 took them

01:01:16.720 from us and

01:01:17.620 gave us money

01:01:18.640 and then

01:01:19.240 distributed them

01:01:20.480 to hospitals.

01:01:21.920 We were

01:01:22.300 well paid.

01:01:23.840 My wife and

01:01:24.620 I both

01:01:25.140 worked there

01:01:25.900 and earned

01:01:27.100 very good

01:01:27.720 money for

01:01:28.340 that time.

01:01:29.360 So you got

01:01:29.860 your chemistry

01:01:30.380 degree at

01:01:30.920 Moscow State

01:01:31.400 University and

01:01:32.640 go back to

01:01:33.380 Tashkent to

01:01:34.120 work at the

01:01:34.600 nuclear facility.

01:01:35.720 First, I did

01:01:36.840 work experience

01:01:38.080 for two years

01:01:39.000 at the Polio

01:01:39.820 Institute on

01:01:40.560 the outskirts

01:01:41.120 of Moscow.

01:01:42.040 It was on the

01:01:42.760 road to

01:01:43.220 Vnukovo airport.

01:01:44.580 Then Marina

01:01:45.080 and I, she

01:01:45.980 graduated from

01:01:46.740 university, I

01:01:47.800 finished my

01:01:48.460 work experience

01:01:49.240 placement, I

01:01:50.240 negotiated for

01:01:51.180 us to both be

01:01:52.440 employed at the

01:01:53.460 Nuclear Physics

01:01:54.240 Institute and we

01:01:55.380 worked there for

01:01:56.120 several years.

01:01:57.060 You lived with us

01:01:57.760 in Tashkent then?

01:01:59.040 Yes, I'd already

01:02:00.200 been born.

01:02:01.680 You weren't even

01:02:02.460 that small at this

01:02:03.300 point.

01:02:03.560 Yes, I would have

01:02:04.480 been four when we

01:02:05.180 moved back to

01:02:05.740 Tashkent.

01:02:06.780 So how did you

01:02:08.200 end up going back

01:02:09.060 to Moscow again?

01:02:11.460 I'll tell you

01:02:12.380 very briefly.

01:02:14.000 My university

01:02:15.140 grades meant

01:02:16.980 that I was

01:02:17.920 sent to

01:02:19.060 write and

01:02:20.660 defend my

01:02:23.340 dissertation at

01:02:25.120 one of the

01:02:26.120 best biochemistry

01:02:27.760 institutes in

01:02:29.040 the USSR.

01:02:30.840 The plan was

01:02:31.840 that I would

01:02:32.680 stay there to

01:02:33.780 do my PhD.

01:02:35.460 But by this

01:02:36.340 point my father

01:02:37.620 was in serious

01:02:38.760 trouble with the

01:02:39.900 KGB and all

01:02:42.160 members of our

01:02:43.820 family were

01:02:45.040 punished, including

01:02:46.820 me.

01:02:47.600 I was given a

01:02:48.860 C grade in an

01:02:50.400 exam for no

01:02:51.720 reason for a

01:02:52.860 political subject

01:02:54.180 and my PhD

01:02:55.580 recommendation was

01:02:57.160 taken away.

01:02:58.300 What was the

01:02:58.760 exam?

01:03:01.660 The exam was

01:03:03.680 called scientific

01:03:05.360 communism.

01:03:06.480 So they

01:03:10.720 failed you on

01:03:11.700 purpose?

01:03:12.600 At the exam they

01:03:13.560 listened to me in

01:03:14.700 silence then asked

01:03:15.640 me to go out

01:03:16.480 without telling me

01:03:17.660 what grade I got.

01:03:18.880 When the

01:03:19.180 examination ended

01:03:20.160 they put a sign up

01:03:21.380 showing who'd got

01:03:22.500 which grades.

01:03:23.840 I had a C.

01:03:25.060 That same day I was

01:03:26.040 called to the party

01:03:26.880 committee of the

01:03:28.040 faculty and informed

01:03:29.540 that my PhD

01:03:30.760 recommendation had

01:03:31.900 been withdrawn.

01:03:33.160 That was my

01:03:33.780 unofficial punishment

01:03:34.820 for my father being

01:03:35.960 a dissident.

01:03:37.000 So let's talk

01:03:37.820 about my

01:03:38.280 grandfather, your

01:03:39.540 father, being a

01:03:40.920 dissident from the

01:03:42.000 beginning.

01:03:44.460 Yes, he was a

01:03:45.560 dissident.

01:03:46.640 The first time he

01:03:47.640 really got in trouble

01:03:48.800 was in 1968.

01:03:51.600 At that time the

01:03:52.540 Soviet Union was

01:03:53.600 having problems with

01:03:55.140 the Czech

01:03:55.660 uprising which was

01:03:57.160 put down by East

01:03:58.440 Germans, Poles.

01:03:59.740 the so-called

01:04:02.760 Prague Spring.

01:04:05.760 Yes.

01:04:06.800 At that time my

01:04:08.460 father was doing

01:04:09.560 his PhD at the

01:04:10.840 physics faculty of

01:04:12.140 Moscow State

01:04:12.980 University.

01:04:14.240 He also went

01:04:15.020 there from Tashkent

01:04:16.280 in his day to do

01:04:17.420 his PhD.

01:04:20.080 They had a so-called

01:04:22.240 English club

01:04:23.420 where they spoke

01:04:26.860 English and

01:04:29.040 discussed the

01:04:29.740 Soviet response

01:04:30.720 to the Prague

01:04:31.380 Spring.

01:04:32.240 They were

01:04:32.740 critical and

01:04:33.520 naturally one of

01:04:35.380 the people there

01:04:36.140 was an

01:04:36.920 informant.

01:04:38.840 He reported

01:04:39.700 everyone to the

01:04:40.520 authorities.

01:04:41.140 They were all

01:04:41.620 interrogated.

01:04:43.840 As far as I can

01:04:44.760 tell from the

01:04:45.360 documents my

01:04:46.100 father refused to

01:04:47.220 answer any

01:04:47.820 questions and

01:04:49.520 so he was

01:04:50.960 told him he'd

01:04:52.880 be held

01:04:53.300 responsible for

01:04:54.280 everything.

01:04:56.240 In the end

01:04:57.480 he finished his

01:04:59.580 PhD program,

01:05:00.800 defended his

01:05:01.600 dissertation but

01:05:02.680 he couldn't find

01:05:03.820 employment as a

01:05:05.860 physicist.

01:05:07.480 He was forced

01:05:08.440 to look for

01:05:09.080 other work to

01:05:11.060 support his

01:05:11.880 family and so

01:05:13.880 that's how he

01:05:14.720 became a great

01:05:15.640 translator of

01:05:18.060 scientific literature

01:05:19.180 into English.

01:05:20.800 He brought

01:05:21.800 almost every

01:05:22.640 great physics

01:05:23.360 book available

01:05:24.140 to the

01:05:25.140 English-speaking

01:05:26.560 world with

01:05:27.600 his translations.

01:05:29.480 That was his

01:05:30.800 first incident.

01:05:33.160 Let's just

01:05:34.060 zoom in on it

01:05:35.080 a little bit.

01:05:36.760 Some people

01:05:37.440 watching and

01:05:38.120 listening might

01:05:38.740 be thinking

01:05:39.300 well it was

01:05:40.280 1968 so not

01:05:41.820 the 80s yet.

01:05:43.320 Why wasn't he

01:05:44.140 shipped off to a

01:05:45.000 psychiatric hospital?

01:05:46.560 Why didn't he

01:05:47.360 get a really

01:05:47.940 severe punishment?

01:05:48.820 Well, he

01:05:51.860 wasn't a

01:05:52.880 hardcore

01:05:54.360 dissident.

01:05:56.660 He was an

01:05:57.680 amateur

01:05:58.040 dissident.

01:05:58.640 And he was

01:06:00.920 punished accordingly.

01:06:03.240 Professional

01:06:03.800 dissidents.

01:06:05.280 As far as I

01:06:06.020 know, he

01:06:07.980 decided he

01:06:08.720 couldn't become a

01:06:09.540 professional.

01:06:10.040 A professional

01:06:11.460 dissident?

01:06:13.580 Yes.

01:06:15.200 He understood

01:06:16.360 that his

01:06:17.900 family would be

01:06:18.720 punished very

01:06:19.320 severely and he

01:06:20.120 can't afford to

01:06:20.800 have his wife

01:06:21.480 and daughter

01:06:22.040 suffer like that

01:06:24.140 for his desire

01:06:24.920 to be a

01:06:25.400 dissident.

01:06:26.340 So he never

01:06:27.180 became a

01:06:27.680 career dissident.

01:06:29.380 The punishments

01:06:30.480 he got were

01:06:31.280 commensurate with

01:06:32.220 that.

01:06:33.000 So at that

01:06:34.040 point, these

01:06:34.680 so-called

01:06:35.300 amateur

01:06:35.800 punishments

01:06:36.440 consisted of

01:06:37.300 him not

01:06:37.680 being allowed

01:06:38.220 to pursue

01:06:38.660 his career

01:06:39.180 in his

01:06:39.520 field.

01:06:40.480 Yes.

01:06:41.740 They said

01:06:42.500 to him,

01:06:43.760 you can't

01:06:44.720 work as a

01:06:45.280 physicist.

01:06:45.840 You're not

01:06:46.140 one of us.

01:06:47.340 We can't

01:06:47.780 trust you.

01:06:49.000 Go work

01:06:49.580 somewhere else.

01:06:50.960 So he

01:06:52.280 found a job

01:06:52.880 at some

01:06:53.280 institute where

01:06:54.180 he worked

01:06:54.620 as a

01:06:54.900 researcher,

01:06:55.460 but it

01:06:55.820 wasn't

01:06:56.100 physics.

01:06:57.140 It wasn't

01:06:57.600 his level.

01:06:58.540 So he

01:06:59.100 was prevented

01:06:59.720 from having

01:07:00.240 a career.

01:07:00.740 His wife

01:07:01.460 was also

01:07:01.900 fired,

01:07:02.340 right?

01:07:02.980 Not at

01:07:03.520 that time.

01:07:04.320 That was

01:07:04.900 the next

01:07:05.280 time.

01:07:05.860 So at

01:07:06.520 this point,

01:07:07.000 it was

01:07:07.200 just his

01:07:07.720 career that

01:07:08.420 got taken

01:07:09.040 away?

01:07:09.860 He was

01:07:10.180 told being

01:07:11.380 a physicist

01:07:11.800 wasn't for

01:07:12.460 him.

01:07:13.700 Physics

01:07:13.980 requires loyalty

01:07:14.860 to your

01:07:15.280 country,

01:07:15.760 and you

01:07:15.980 are a

01:07:16.240 dissident.

01:07:16.880 That was

01:07:17.260 the first

01:07:17.700 time.

01:07:18.640 The second

01:07:19.260 time was

01:07:19.900 when you

01:07:20.380 and the

01:07:20.680 whole family

01:07:21.300 were punished

01:07:21.980 as well.

01:07:23.100 My father

01:07:24.060 underwent

01:07:25.580 pretty

01:07:26.880 unpleasant

01:07:28.040 interrogations.

01:07:29.540 There were

01:07:30.000 some serious

01:07:30.800 informant

01:07:31.660 allegations

01:07:32.200 against him.

01:07:33.800 And to

01:07:34.640 be fair,

01:07:36.020 they had

01:07:36.500 this group

01:07:36.980 of amateur

01:07:37.440 dissidents

01:07:37.960 who were

01:07:38.400 openly and

01:07:39.080 harshly

01:07:39.460 critical of

01:07:40.000 the Soviet

01:07:40.380 Union,

01:07:40.860 communists,

01:07:41.960 and everything

01:07:42.480 else.

01:07:43.060 I listened

01:07:44.060 to their

01:07:44.840 discussions

01:07:45.800 sometimes,

01:07:47.000 but never

01:07:47.880 took part.

01:07:49.520 I just

01:07:50.060 listened and

01:07:50.860 realized they

01:07:51.680 are just as

01:07:52.240 crazy as

01:07:52.740 the communists.

01:07:54.040 And why

01:07:54.280 was that?

01:07:55.140 Why?

01:07:56.480 Because they

01:07:57.140 were extreme.

01:07:58.860 They had

01:07:59.260 strong convictions

01:08:00.180 but no

01:08:00.740 thinking,

01:08:01.260 just beliefs,

01:08:02.320 sacred beliefs.

01:08:04.020 This is evil,

01:08:05.060 this is wrong,

01:08:05.660 this guy is

01:08:06.060 evil.

01:08:07.200 What about

01:08:07.700 no, I

01:08:09.300 said this is

01:08:09.820 evil, so

01:08:10.300 it is.

01:08:11.820 If Ivanov

01:08:12.580 said it's

01:08:13.120 evil, then

01:08:13.640 it is.

01:08:15.040 I am not

01:08:15.760 a fan of

01:08:16.220 that.

01:08:16.460 It's important

01:08:16.960 to think

01:08:17.560 for yourself.

01:08:19.560 So this

01:08:19.860 was 1968,

01:08:21.440 and the

01:08:21.800 next time?

01:08:22.780 Here's

01:08:23.040 what happened.

01:08:24.100 He was

01:08:24.400 interrogated,

01:08:25.180 tortured,

01:08:25.700 he refused

01:08:26.220 to answer

01:08:26.600 questions.

01:08:27.540 Tortured?

01:08:28.480 Let's not

01:08:28.940 mislead people.

01:08:30.220 He wasn't

01:08:30.940 tortured like

01:08:31.960 he would

01:08:32.420 have been

01:08:32.900 under Stalin.

01:08:34.600 They used

01:08:35.280 sleep deprivation.

01:08:38.100 They would

01:08:38.680 interrogate him

01:08:39.620 all night,

01:08:40.880 and in the

01:08:41.320 morning he'd

01:08:41.800 have to be

01:08:42.220 at work.

01:08:43.400 They kept

01:08:44.080 this up for

01:08:44.620 a long time,

01:08:45.260 this was

01:08:45.580 very unpleasant.

01:08:47.400 And when

01:08:47.880 these people

01:08:48.460 are interrogating

01:08:49.360 you,

01:08:49.640 they're scaring

01:08:50.220 you.

01:08:51.500 They're

01:08:52.060 threatening

01:08:52.500 with things

01:08:53.140 that are

01:08:53.500 worse than

01:08:54.080 what's actually

01:08:54.720 going to

01:08:55.140 happen.

01:08:55.580 That's

01:08:55.780 something you

01:08:56.300 have to

01:08:56.640 endure,

01:08:57.160 to suffer

01:08:57.620 through.

01:08:59.780 After that

01:09:00.520 they said,

01:09:01.000 no,

01:09:01.640 okay,

01:09:02.040 you bastard,

01:09:03.400 you don't

01:09:04.720 want to

01:09:05.100 cooperate,

01:09:06.740 then everyone

01:09:07.620 will suffer.

01:09:10.060 They couldn't

01:09:10.500 do anything

01:09:10.940 else to him

01:09:11.580 because he

01:09:12.120 was completely

01:09:12.800 independent

01:09:13.440 of the

01:09:13.940 Soviet Union.

01:09:16.440 By this

01:09:17.240 point he

01:09:18.120 worked

01:09:18.920 exclusively

01:09:19.880 with

01:09:20.860 foreign

01:09:21.600 clients

01:09:22.580 for his

01:09:23.520 translations.

01:09:26.600 They

01:09:27.320 couldn't

01:09:27.840 take that

01:09:28.380 away from

01:09:29.140 him

01:09:29.540 unless they

01:09:31.840 put him

01:09:32.360 in prison

01:09:32.960 and they

01:09:33.640 had no

01:09:34.060 grounds to

01:09:34.720 do that.

01:09:36.120 And the

01:09:36.560 period where

01:09:37.380 you could

01:09:37.840 put people

01:09:38.580 in prison

01:09:39.240 for no

01:09:39.880 reason was

01:09:40.660 over.

01:09:42.480 So they

01:09:42.940 told him

01:09:43.680 everyone

01:09:45.240 else is

01:09:45.980 going to

01:09:46.500 have

01:09:46.760 problems.

01:09:48.540 They

01:09:48.780 fired his

01:09:49.460 wife.

01:09:50.540 Hold on,

01:09:51.460 this second

01:09:52.280 incident was

01:09:53.080 when?

01:09:55.280 I was

01:09:56.100 in my

01:09:56.680 fourth year

01:09:58.300 of university,

01:10:00.320 so it

01:10:00.960 would have

01:10:01.860 been

01:10:02.340 1984.

01:10:06.040 And this

01:10:06.520 was because

01:10:07.160 he'd been

01:10:07.600 critical of

01:10:08.260 the war

01:10:08.660 in Afghanistan?

01:10:10.360 I'm not

01:10:11.040 sure about it.

01:10:11.820 Why was

01:10:12.460 it?

01:10:12.660 It was

01:10:14.400 because

01:10:15.040 they had

01:10:15.700 a club

01:10:16.380 of

01:10:18.100 these

01:10:19.100 anti-Soviet

01:10:21.060 amateurs.

01:10:23.260 They got

01:10:23.880 together in

01:10:24.600 the evenings.

01:10:26.200 I'm sure

01:10:26.640 there were

01:10:27.040 informants

01:10:27.560 there too.

01:10:28.740 This was

01:10:29.080 pretty standard.

01:10:30.460 If 20

01:10:31.080 people get

01:10:31.560 together and

01:10:32.240 shout some

01:10:32.740 slogans,

01:10:33.920 one of them

01:10:34.520 then goes

01:10:35.180 and writes

01:10:35.660 a report.

01:10:36.740 That was

01:10:37.140 pretty normal.

01:10:37.700 so his

01:10:41.640 wife was

01:10:42.440 fired from

01:10:43.280 her job

01:10:43.840 at the

01:10:44.220 physics

01:10:44.580 faculty.

01:10:46.260 His

01:10:46.980 daughter,

01:10:48.320 my

01:10:48.620 stepsister,

01:10:50.360 was kicked

01:10:51.040 out of

01:10:51.580 Moscow

01:10:51.960 University.

01:10:54.060 She was

01:10:54.640 in her

01:10:55.000 first year

01:10:55.720 there.

01:10:57.220 The formal

01:10:57.920 reason was

01:10:58.840 that she

01:10:59.360 had engaged

01:11:00.320 in

01:11:01.040 dishonorable

01:11:02.960 conduct

01:11:03.460 incompatible

01:11:04.140 with being

01:11:04.600 a Soviet

01:11:04.980 student.

01:11:06.120 They claimed

01:11:06.680 she had

01:11:07.100 forged

01:11:07.500 medical

01:11:07.880 documents

01:11:08.400 or

01:11:08.600 something.

01:11:09.420 This

01:11:09.740 was all

01:11:10.200 an

01:11:10.400 excuse?

01:11:11.520 She

01:11:12.000 wasn't

01:11:12.480 even

01:11:12.780 an

01:11:13.080 adult.

01:11:13.680 It

01:11:13.780 was

01:11:14.060 totally

01:11:14.680 illegal.

01:11:17.560 And

01:11:18.140 by this

01:11:18.960 point,

01:11:19.440 the power

01:11:19.920 of the

01:11:20.400 KGB

01:11:20.900 was

01:11:21.300 waning

01:11:21.720 and the

01:11:22.280 people

01:11:22.640 responsible

01:11:23.340 for

01:11:23.920 children's

01:11:24.640 rights

01:11:25.140 got

01:11:26.620 involved

01:11:27.280 and said,

01:11:28.980 you have

01:11:29.880 no right

01:11:30.360 to do

01:11:30.680 this

01:11:30.960 without

01:11:31.200 our

01:11:31.520 approval.

01:11:32.960 Reinstate

01:11:33.440 her

01:11:33.600 immediately.

01:11:34.940 And she

01:11:35.300 was reinstated.

01:11:36.260 As for

01:11:36.580 me,

01:11:36.880 they just

01:11:37.260 gave me

01:11:37.620 a C

01:11:37.980 in the

01:11:38.300 exam on

01:11:39.720 scientific

01:11:40.300 communism for

01:11:41.120 no reason

01:11:41.660 and told

01:11:42.840 me I

01:11:43.120 can't do

01:11:43.440 my PhD

01:11:43.960 if I

01:11:44.320 got a

01:11:44.600 C in

01:11:44.960 this

01:11:45.140 exam.

01:11:46.320 Bye.

01:11:47.680 So there

01:11:48.120 was a

01:11:48.440 whole big

01:11:48.860 mess.

01:11:50.340 And

01:11:50.520 ultimately,

01:11:51.740 I ended

01:11:53.580 up doing

01:11:55.120 work experience

01:11:56.320 with

01:11:56.720 academician

01:11:57.520 Chumakov.

01:11:58.680 He was a

01:11:59.620 wonderful man

01:12:00.440 and I'm

01:12:01.520 very proud to

01:12:02.300 have worked

01:12:02.800 under him.

01:12:03.360 after that

01:12:04.920 you went

01:12:05.300 to

01:12:05.480 Tashkent.

01:12:07.020 Yes.

01:12:08.360 We

01:12:08.880 worked at

01:12:10.320 the Nuclear

01:12:10.680 Physics

01:12:10.980 Institute for

01:12:11.680 a while and

01:12:12.240 then I

01:12:12.560 realized the

01:12:13.060 Soviet Union

01:12:13.580 was coming

01:12:14.080 to an

01:12:14.380 end.

01:12:15.200 Hold on,

01:12:15.940 let's

01:12:16.240 definitely

01:12:16.600 talk about

01:12:17.200 that.

01:12:18.100 How did

01:12:18.840 you know

01:12:19.400 the Soviet

01:12:19.980 Union was

01:12:20.660 coming to

01:12:21.180 an end?

01:12:21.580 What year

01:12:22.000 was it?

01:12:23.900 It was

01:12:24.880 1989,

01:12:26.820 the very

01:12:27.700 end of

01:12:28.520 Perestroika.

01:12:29.760 What did

01:12:31.520 it coming

01:12:32.060 to an

01:12:32.560 end look

01:12:33.180 like?

01:12:35.320 You know,

01:12:36.140 I can't

01:12:36.520 give you

01:12:36.920 specific

01:12:37.460 indicators.

01:12:38.880 Everything

01:12:39.220 just seemed

01:12:40.000 to indicate

01:12:40.640 that

01:12:41.060 complete

01:12:42.580 chaos is

01:12:43.220 coming and

01:12:43.880 the system

01:12:44.380 won't

01:12:44.760 hold.

01:12:46.060 There

01:12:46.320 were very

01:12:46.740 strong

01:12:47.160 nationalistic

01:12:47.860 eruptions

01:12:48.440 in different

01:12:49.080 Soviet

01:12:49.520 republics.

01:12:51.140 Basically,

01:12:52.400 the central

01:12:53.060 imperial power

01:12:54.020 looked like

01:12:54.560 it was

01:12:54.920 gone.

01:12:55.720 Basically,

01:12:56.880 the central

01:12:57.840 imperial power

01:12:59.380 looked like

01:13:00.260 it was

01:13:00.820 gone.

01:13:01.660 It couldn't

01:13:02.060 hold it

01:13:02.360 all together.

01:13:03.160 At this

01:13:03.760 point,

01:13:04.080 Gorbachev

01:13:04.460 was in

01:13:04.880 charge.

01:13:06.140 And it

01:13:06.460 was his

01:13:06.880 last year

01:13:07.420 too.

01:13:09.300 There were

01:13:09.880 lots of

01:13:10.320 issues.

01:13:11.660 People in

01:13:12.400 the republics

01:13:13.140 were starting

01:13:13.700 to avoid

01:13:14.440 doing what

01:13:16.000 they were

01:13:16.380 told.

01:13:17.640 All sorts

01:13:18.240 of problems

01:13:18.920 and,

01:13:20.740 as always,

01:13:21.500 nationalism

01:13:21.880 started

01:13:22.440 rising.

01:13:23.660 So I

01:13:23.960 decided that

01:13:24.640 as non-Uzbeks,

01:13:25.920 staying in

01:13:27.260 Uzbekistan

01:13:27.860 wasn't the

01:13:28.380 smartest thing

01:13:29.000 to do.

01:13:29.380 besides,

01:13:32.220 it became

01:13:33.300 clear that

01:13:34.800 my job

01:13:36.080 was a

01:13:37.000 dead end.

01:13:38.680 It became

01:13:39.720 boring.

01:13:42.160 I had

01:13:43.120 lots of

01:13:43.980 materials.

01:13:45.240 The equipment

01:13:46.080 was great,

01:13:47.460 but there

01:13:47.900 was no

01:13:48.460 great purpose.

01:13:50.260 There was

01:13:51.280 no mission?

01:13:52.760 No mission.

01:13:54.440 So I

01:13:55.160 decided to

01:13:55.840 go back

01:13:56.260 to doing

01:13:56.720 my PhD

01:13:57.340 and went

01:13:57.920 back to

01:13:58.300 the

01:13:58.480 chemistry

01:13:58.820 faculty

01:13:59.340 to do

01:13:59.760 that.

01:14:00.820 But it

01:14:01.240 wasn't the

01:14:01.720 course for

01:14:02.900 promising

01:14:03.380 students.

01:14:04.420 It was

01:14:05.180 one where

01:14:05.720 employees could

01:14:06.580 be sent.

01:14:07.720 So the

01:14:08.340 Nuclear

01:14:08.620 Physics

01:14:09.040 Institute

01:14:09.480 sent me

01:14:10.080 to do

01:14:10.400 that.

01:14:10.680 work.

01:14:11.680 But it

01:14:13.900 was the

01:14:14.720 radiation

01:14:15.720 chemistry

01:14:17.220 department,

01:14:18.560 which wasn't

01:14:20.440 my thing.

01:14:21.920 I am a

01:14:22.840 biochemist.

01:14:24.560 I really

01:14:27.560 didn't like

01:14:28.360 what was

01:14:28.940 happening

01:14:29.440 there.

01:14:30.140 And at

01:14:30.540 this time,

01:14:31.200 the country

01:14:31.740 began its

01:14:32.560 capitalist

01:14:33.120 experiment.

01:14:36.060 And because

01:14:37.800 me and

01:14:38.620 some guys

01:14:39.320 had already

01:14:39.980 been working,

01:14:42.080 we were

01:14:43.680 earning money

01:14:44.640 in a

01:14:45.100 semi-Soviet

01:14:46.040 way.

01:14:46.540 What does

01:14:49.600 that mean?

01:14:50.960 It means

01:14:52.260 we were

01:14:53.340 an association.

01:14:55.620 I've

01:14:55.940 forgotten

01:14:56.680 the word.

01:15:00.180 Cooperative?

01:15:01.380 Yes,

01:15:01.960 cooperative.

01:15:02.960 We fixed

01:15:03.700 cracks in

01:15:04.540 apartment

01:15:05.180 block walls.

01:15:07.420 We filled

01:15:08.680 them in

01:15:09.860 using

01:15:11.380 suspended

01:15:12.300 platforms.

01:15:13.420 I wasn't

01:15:14.940 allowed to

01:15:15.680 go onto

01:15:16.340 the

01:15:16.680 platforms.

01:15:18.620 They

01:15:19.420 said,

01:15:20.120 why don't

01:15:22.440 you manage

01:15:22.960 this

01:15:23.240 operation?

01:15:24.960 Go here,

01:15:25.840 go there.

01:15:26.980 I ended

01:15:27.700 up doing

01:15:28.340 48 circles

01:15:29.480 around

01:15:29.900 Moscow

01:15:30.380 with the

01:15:32.140 driver and

01:15:32.960 Zhiguli,

01:15:33.420 the cooperative

01:15:34.040 provided.

01:15:37.140 So how

01:15:38.440 did you,

01:15:39.760 a PhD

01:15:40.480 student,

01:15:41.460 end up

01:15:42.540 this

01:15:43.500 was

01:15:43.740 before

01:15:44.200 when I

01:15:45.680 was just

01:15:46.080 a student.

01:15:47.060 When I

01:15:47.600 started doing

01:15:48.360 my PhD,

01:15:50.100 a friend

01:15:50.560 called me

01:15:51.120 and said,

01:15:51.580 let's set

01:15:51.980 up a

01:15:52.300 bank.

01:15:53.300 Hold

01:15:53.600 on,

01:15:53.820 this is

01:15:54.160 the part

01:15:54.560 I always

01:15:55.020 tell people.

01:15:55.820 So I

01:15:56.180 decided,

01:15:57.140 hold on,

01:15:57.580 hold on,

01:15:58.580 this is

01:15:59.120 the part

01:15:59.560 I always

01:16:00.240 tell people

01:16:01.000 that they

01:16:01.820 don't

01:16:02.240 believe.

01:16:02.840 So let's

01:16:03.340 go through

01:16:03.820 this properly.

01:16:05.520 In the

01:16:06.260 Soviet Union

01:16:07.000 there was

01:16:07.620 an article

01:16:08.220 of law

01:16:09.000 which

01:16:10.280 dealt

01:16:10.780 with what

01:16:11.420 in English

01:16:12.000 we call

01:16:12.740 entrepreneurship.

01:16:15.160 I've

01:16:15.840 forgotten

01:16:16.220 the word

01:16:16.800 in Russian.

01:16:19.080 Entrepreneurship.

01:16:20.240 So

01:16:20.960 entrepreneurship

01:16:21.760 was illegal.

01:16:25.080 That

01:16:25.880 law

01:16:27.320 was

01:16:28.380 repealed.

01:16:30.520 When was

01:16:30.940 that?

01:16:31.380 At the

01:16:31.880 end of

01:16:32.200 the

01:16:32.380 perestroika

01:16:33.000 period.

01:16:33.920 They

01:16:34.460 decided

01:16:34.940 to allow

01:16:35.660 private

01:16:36.420 banks

01:16:36.860 and private

01:16:37.440 companies

01:16:38.120 they

01:16:39.620 announced

01:16:40.120 that

01:16:40.480 capitalism

01:16:40.960 was

01:16:41.380 now

01:16:41.600 allowed

01:16:42.160 in our

01:16:43.600 society.

01:16:45.180 It was

01:16:45.460 no longer

01:16:45.980 a crime.

01:16:47.500 So

01:16:47.720 capitalism

01:16:48.520 stopped

01:16:49.100 being a

01:16:49.540 crime.

01:16:50.260 Okay.

01:16:50.880 How did

01:16:51.400 you go

01:16:51.720 from

01:16:51.980 filling

01:16:52.320 cracks

01:16:52.700 and walls

01:16:53.200 to the

01:16:53.580 idea

01:16:53.940 of opening

01:16:54.400 a bank?

01:16:55.320 Well

01:16:55.600 there was

01:16:57.400 basically

01:16:57.840 one bank

01:16:58.720 in the

01:17:00.000 Soviet Union.

01:17:01.300 Well

01:17:01.660 no.

01:17:03.180 There were

01:17:03.780 several.

01:17:04.300 there was

01:17:04.800 the

01:17:04.980 state

01:17:05.280 bank

01:17:05.780 and it

01:17:06.300 had

01:17:06.480 the

01:17:06.660 savings

01:17:07.040 bank

01:17:07.440 for

01:17:07.660 the

01:17:07.820 people.

01:17:08.660 An

01:17:08.760 international

01:17:09.540 bank

01:17:10.500 for

01:17:10.840 something

01:17:11.420 else

01:17:11.920 but it

01:17:12.460 was a

01:17:13.040 single

01:17:13.480 system

01:17:14.160 and it

01:17:15.960 wasn't a

01:17:16.680 banking

01:17:17.100 system

01:17:17.780 in the

01:17:18.320 capitalist

01:17:18.880 sense.

01:17:20.980 There

01:17:21.160 were

01:17:21.740 no

01:17:23.520 capitalist

01:17:24.200 banks

01:17:24.780 in the

01:17:25.840 Soviet

01:17:26.100 Union.

01:17:27.020 So

01:17:27.300 when they

01:17:27.740 allowed

01:17:28.080 capitalism

01:17:28.740 and

01:17:29.040 banking

01:17:29.360 someone

01:17:29.780 had to

01:17:30.200 create

01:17:30.520 them.

01:17:31.400 Why

01:17:31.520 not?

01:17:32.120 But

01:17:32.280 what does

01:17:32.760 a

01:17:32.920 biochemist

01:17:33.620 like you

01:17:34.100 have to

01:17:34.460 do

01:17:34.620 with

01:17:34.800 it?

01:17:35.500 I

01:17:35.660 was a

01:17:36.180 biochemist

01:17:36.800 but my

01:17:37.360 colleague

01:17:37.900 who

01:17:39.640 headed

01:17:40.000 this

01:17:40.560 cooperative

01:17:41.500 was

01:17:42.120 younger

01:17:42.540 than me

01:17:43.080 by a

01:17:43.500 few

01:17:43.680 years.

01:17:45.340 He

01:17:45.580 had

01:17:45.960 the

01:17:46.200 idea

01:17:46.560 of

01:17:46.800 starting

01:17:47.240 a

01:17:47.480 bank,

01:17:48.900 a

01:17:49.120 stock

01:17:49.400 exchange

01:17:50.120 and

01:17:50.500 a

01:17:50.680 bank.

01:17:51.740 Wait,

01:17:52.100 wait,

01:17:52.320 wait.

01:17:52.920 So

01:17:53.260 a

01:17:53.720 biochemist

01:17:54.760 and a

01:17:55.220 physics

01:17:55.540 student

01:17:56.020 got

01:17:56.340 together

01:17:56.880 and

01:17:57.460 started

01:17:57.940 a

01:17:58.160 bank

01:17:58.460 and

01:17:58.620 a

01:17:58.780 stock

01:17:59.040 exchange.

01:18:00.020 Sorry,

01:18:00.660 what?

01:18:01.060 What do

01:18:01.380 you mean?

01:18:01.940 What?

01:18:02.820 We were

01:18:03.280 smart,

01:18:04.100 well-educated

01:18:05.460 people.

01:18:06.120 We had

01:18:06.360 degrees

01:18:06.800 from

01:18:07.100 universities.

01:18:08.200 So

01:18:08.400 what?

01:18:09.200 We were

01:18:09.660 smart

01:18:10.020 people

01:18:10.460 with a

01:18:10.900 broad

01:18:11.200 and good

01:18:11.640 education.

01:18:13.420 We

01:18:14.040 weren't

01:18:14.460 chemists,

01:18:15.200 we were

01:18:15.520 educated

01:18:16.060 people.

01:18:17.180 Today,

01:18:18.020 if you

01:18:19.040 only get

01:18:19.580 taught your

01:18:20.160 subject

01:18:20.640 and nothing

01:18:21.260 else,

01:18:23.080 that's not

01:18:23.760 a real

01:18:24.220 university.

01:18:25.680 That's a

01:18:26.500 technical

01:18:26.960 college.

01:18:28.140 A real

01:18:28.620 university

01:18:29.180 is where

01:18:29.900 you're given

01:18:30.520 a wide

01:18:31.040 range of

01:18:31.740 core

01:18:32.080 subjects

01:18:32.680 and the

01:18:34.540 ability to

01:18:35.220 think

01:18:35.500 independently.

01:18:37.560 That's the

01:18:38.260 type of

01:18:38.680 people we

01:18:39.220 were.

01:18:39.900 So you

01:18:40.700 were people

01:18:41.300 who were

01:18:41.720 well-educated,

01:18:43.080 erudite and

01:18:43.920 well-rounded,

01:18:45.020 who understood.

01:18:46.360 We understood

01:18:47.080 how a bank

01:18:49.100 was supposed

01:18:49.660 to work.

01:18:50.860 We knew

01:18:51.220 how to do

01:18:51.720 it.

01:18:52.360 We thought

01:18:53.080 it through

01:18:53.440 and registered

01:18:54.120 the bank,

01:18:55.320 set it up.

01:18:56.420 It was one

01:18:57.020 of the first,

01:18:58.220 maybe the third

01:18:59.020 or fourth

01:18:59.620 private bank.

01:19:00.500 I can tell

01:19:01.200 you that

01:19:01.580 nobody watching

01:19:02.620 who didn't

01:19:03.300 live through

01:19:03.820 that period

01:19:04.540 has any

01:19:05.720 idea what

01:19:06.540 you're talking

01:19:07.060 about.

01:19:07.740 There were

01:19:08.160 no banks.

01:19:09.060 There was

01:19:09.520 a need

01:19:09.800 for banks.

01:19:11.540 I get

01:19:12.080 it.

01:19:12.840 But can

01:19:14.000 you explain

01:19:14.840 to people

01:19:15.500 who are

01:19:15.920 used to

01:19:16.340 the idea

01:19:17.040 a bank

01:19:17.800 is an

01:19:18.240 institution

01:19:18.960 that has

01:19:19.540 existed

01:19:20.000 for hundreds

01:19:20.700 of years,

01:19:22.220 how is

01:19:22.940 it possible

01:19:23.760 that some

01:19:25.220 kids...

01:19:26.700 Well,

01:19:28.160 it's a

01:19:28.560 problem

01:19:28.920 that in

01:19:30.400 the US

01:19:30.980 the last

01:19:31.860 new bank

01:19:32.260 was set

01:19:32.660 up in

01:19:32.940 the 1960s.

01:19:34.820 It's a

01:19:35.100 problem.

01:19:35.880 That's a

01:19:36.200 different issue.

01:19:36.780 What I'm

01:19:37.120 asking is

01:19:37.700 how is it

01:19:38.600 possible for

01:19:39.280 there to

01:19:39.600 be a

01:19:39.920 society

01:19:40.460 where banks

01:19:41.780 are founded

01:19:42.260 by a bunch

01:19:42.940 of kids

01:19:43.420 with science

01:19:44.040 degrees?

01:19:44.940 Well,

01:19:45.480 who was

01:19:45.960 supposed to

01:19:46.600 set them

01:19:47.120 up?

01:19:48.340 For example,

01:19:49.100 the former

01:19:49.560 state bank,

01:19:50.480 which became

01:19:51.100 the new

01:19:51.540 state bank,

01:19:52.240 was doing

01:19:52.680 stupid

01:19:53.120 things.

01:19:53.980 Lots

01:19:54.380 of stupid

01:19:56.500 things.

01:19:57.000 when we

01:19:58.600 founded our

01:19:59.200 bank,

01:19:59.740 we had a

01:20:00.760 problem.

01:20:01.640 The value

01:20:02.220 of the

01:20:02.560 currency

01:20:02.980 changed

01:20:04.700 rapidly.

01:20:05.980 If you

01:20:06.600 needed 1,000

01:20:07.360 rubles

01:20:07.660 before,

01:20:08.120 now you

01:20:08.440 needed 500,000

01:20:09.580 rubles.

01:20:12.060 And all

01:20:13.840 of these

01:20:14.280 transactions

01:20:14.780 were made

01:20:15.380 in cash

01:20:15.860 at that

01:20:16.240 time.

01:20:17.160 So you

01:20:17.960 went from

01:20:18.740 needing a

01:20:19.320 briefcase to

01:20:20.260 carry it to

01:20:20.940 needing a

01:20:21.460 truck full of

01:20:22.140 cash.

01:20:22.480 It was

01:20:23.480 very

01:20:23.740 inconvenient

01:20:24.340 and it

01:20:25.720 was the

01:20:26.180 central bank

01:20:27.100 that was

01:20:28.160 supposed to

01:20:28.780 fix it,

01:20:29.660 but it

01:20:30.460 didn't.

01:20:31.560 We did

01:20:32.140 it instead.

01:20:33.860 So you

01:20:34.780 found a

01:20:35.360 bank.

01:20:36.100 Okay,

01:20:37.000 let's take

01:20:37.920 another small

01:20:38.780 detour.

01:20:39.600 I want to

01:20:40.160 understand the

01:20:42.160 experience of a

01:20:43.200 normal person

01:20:43.980 living through

01:20:44.680 this moment.

01:20:46.080 Everything is

01:20:46.980 crumbling around

01:20:47.920 you.

01:20:49.020 In the

01:20:49.440 Soviet Union,

01:20:50.820 scientists,

01:20:51.500 military

01:20:52.180 servicemen

01:20:53.020 and other

01:20:53.840 professions

01:20:54.440 were the

01:20:54.920 most respected

01:20:55.920 and the

01:20:56.860 best paid.

01:20:57.840 The party

01:20:58.640 bosses were

01:20:59.560 the best

01:21:00.260 paid.

01:21:01.620 And government

01:21:02.460 officials.

01:21:04.040 And after

01:21:04.440 them,

01:21:04.860 scientists,

01:21:05.560 military

01:21:05.820 servicemen,

01:21:06.540 right?

01:21:07.140 Military

01:21:07.680 servicemen,

01:21:08.780 then engineers,

01:21:09.820 then scientists.

01:21:11.020 Then it all

01:21:11.700 comes crashing

01:21:12.480 down.

01:21:13.040 I remember

01:21:13.580 going to

01:21:14.220 school where

01:21:15.220 I would

01:21:15.540 take a

01:21:16.000 bus,

01:21:16.740 then the

01:21:17.140 metro,

01:21:17.800 and then

01:21:18.240 walk.

01:21:19.640 I remember

01:21:20.240 walking past

01:21:21.260 people,

01:21:21.880 some of

01:21:22.280 whom may

01:21:22.700 have been

01:21:23.100 scientists,

01:21:24.000 who were

01:21:24.460 selling their

01:21:25.100 belongings,

01:21:25.920 furniture,

01:21:26.720 clothes,

01:21:27.400 etc.

01:21:29.820 Yes,

01:21:30.480 that was

01:21:30.880 the case.

01:21:32.800 If the

01:21:33.440 state stops

01:21:34.180 funding

01:21:34.600 research,

01:21:35.900 scientists

01:21:37.220 can't earn

01:21:38.320 a living.

01:21:39.920 At that

01:21:40.360 time,

01:21:40.780 the state

01:21:41.140 stopped

01:21:41.560 funding

01:21:42.080 many things

01:21:43.760 due to

01:21:44.200 the general

01:21:44.740 confusion.

01:21:46.100 So they

01:21:46.900 stopped

01:21:47.320 funding some

01:21:47.960 things that

01:21:48.380 they used

01:21:48.700 to fund.

01:21:49.880 The idea

01:21:50.640 that we

01:21:52.560 must do

01:21:53.040 everything

01:21:53.500 ended.

01:21:54.880 We can't

01:21:55.500 afford this,

01:21:56.220 we can't

01:21:56.560 afford that,

01:21:57.160 we don't

01:21:57.460 have money.

01:21:58.740 That was

01:21:59.160 for a

01:21:59.480 while.

01:22:00.460 The

01:22:00.720 understanding

01:22:01.360 of what

01:22:02.000 needs funding

01:22:02.780 came back

01:22:03.540 after about

01:22:04.880 three years.

01:22:06.180 For that

01:22:06.840 three-year

01:22:07.320 period,

01:22:07.780 I took

01:22:08.060 part in

01:22:09.060 various

01:22:09.860 rescue

01:22:10.280 missions,

01:22:10.820 like the

01:22:11.960 International

01:22:12.580 Chemistry

01:22:13.320 Olympiad

01:22:13.920 team,

01:22:14.400 which I

01:22:15.060 took to

01:22:15.640 three

01:22:16.100 Olympiads

01:22:17.120 without any

01:22:18.140 government

01:22:18.840 support.

01:22:20.240 So

01:22:20.780 individuals

01:22:21.620 like you

01:22:22.400 had to

01:22:22.860 do things

01:22:23.400 they cared

01:22:23.940 about.

01:22:24.820 Our

01:22:25.140 bank did

01:22:25.760 lots of

01:22:26.240 things that

01:22:26.880 the government

01:22:27.440 should have

01:22:27.940 been doing.

01:22:28.560 They kept

01:22:28.940 saying,

01:22:29.740 we'll do

01:22:30.960 it,

01:22:31.200 but not

01:22:31.520 now.

01:22:33.700 We

01:22:34.300 recently

01:22:34.820 reached a

01:22:35.500 huge YouTube

01:22:36.400 milestone with

01:22:37.200 a million

01:22:37.700 subscribers.

01:22:38.800 Amid the

01:22:39.120 celebrations,

01:22:39.860 however,

01:22:40.200 there have

01:22:40.940 been a few

01:22:41.420 cynical voices

01:22:42.180 too.

01:22:42.700 Some

01:22:43.020 people are

01:22:43.440 asking,

01:22:44.280 how do

01:22:44.620 two guys

01:22:45.360 with weird

01:22:46.020 hair and

01:22:46.760 no obvious

01:22:47.660 talent manage

01:22:48.720 to create

01:22:49.220 some of the

01:22:49.700 most sensible

01:22:50.860 balanced

01:22:51.500 non-partisan

01:22:52.360 conversations

01:22:53.040 on the

01:22:53.500 internet?

01:22:54.380 How do

01:22:54.660 they attract

01:22:55.140 massive

01:22:55.660 guests?

01:22:56.640 Some

01:22:57.000 people have

01:22:57.860 even gone

01:22:58.280 as far as

01:22:59.260 to ask,

01:23:00.120 who funds

01:23:00.940 you?

01:23:01.880 And the

01:23:02.240 time has

01:23:02.620 come to

01:23:03.380 confess the

01:23:03.920 truth.

01:23:04.700 For the

01:23:04.980 last six

01:23:05.480 years,

01:23:06.000 we've only

01:23:06.540 been able to

01:23:07.120 produce the

01:23:07.720 show because

01:23:08.500 of financial

01:23:09.080 support from

01:23:10.120 some nefarious

01:23:11.000 problematic

01:23:11.680 people of

01:23:12.500 highly

01:23:12.800 questionable

01:23:13.320 moral integrity.

01:23:14.960 You.

01:23:15.840 Many thousands

01:23:16.560 of you.

01:23:17.280 That's why

01:23:18.140 the show no

01:23:19.220 longer looks like

01:23:20.100 a Beatles tribute

01:23:20.960 act doing a

01:23:21.820 seance.

01:23:22.680 Now it looks

01:23:23.480 like this.

01:23:24.660 This and

01:23:25.920 this.

01:23:26.760 The guests

01:23:27.380 keep getting

01:23:27.900 bigger,

01:23:28.440 the conversations

01:23:29.220 keep getting

01:23:29.920 better.

01:23:30.740 And this is

01:23:31.240 just the

01:23:31.640 beginning.

01:23:32.240 We're excited

01:23:32.940 to announce

01:23:33.520 that we will

01:23:33.920 be moving

01:23:34.340 our locals

01:23:34.940 community,

01:23:35.700 including all

01:23:36.400 bonus content,

01:23:37.720 to our new

01:23:38.120 home at

01:23:38.780 Substack.

01:23:39.300 If you're

01:23:40.080 already a

01:23:40.500 supporter,

01:23:41.280 your subscription

01:23:42.180 will be moved

01:23:43.160 over automatically.

01:23:45.000 As for the

01:23:45.500 rest of you,

01:23:46.360 this is your

01:23:46.900 chance to step

01:23:47.640 up and join

01:23:48.420 us as we go

01:23:49.140 to the next

01:23:49.640 level.

01:23:50.260 Give me

01:23:50.600 money!

01:23:51.740 We need a

01:23:52.720 bit of finesse

01:23:53.320 here.

01:23:53.860 What he's

01:23:54.240 trying to say

01:23:54.920 is that the

01:23:55.600 show will only

01:23:56.300 keep getting

01:23:56.900 bigger and

01:23:57.540 better with

01:23:58.360 your help.

01:23:59.080 You already

01:23:59.540 know about

01:23:59.980 the bonus

01:24:00.500 content we

01:24:01.180 have for

01:24:01.480 supporters.

01:24:02.360 For just

01:24:02.720 seven bucks

01:24:03.780 a month,

01:24:04.520 all 70 bucks

01:24:05.560 a year,

01:24:06.120 you get ad-free

01:24:07.160 extended interviews

01:24:08.320 with a chance

01:24:09.360 to ask our

01:24:10.340 incredible guests

01:24:11.220 your questions.

01:24:12.940 But with

01:24:13.360 Substack,

01:24:14.360 you're going

01:24:14.920 to get a lot

01:24:15.620 more.

01:24:16.300 Insightful articles

01:24:17.240 on upcoming

01:24:17.800 guests,

01:24:18.560 a weekly

01:24:19.000 newsletter,

01:24:20.060 the ability

01:24:20.580 to chat

01:24:21.180 with each

01:24:21.560 other on

01:24:22.000 the app,

01:24:22.660 both privately

01:24:23.560 and in

01:24:24.340 threads.

01:24:25.240 You'll also

01:24:25.980 be able to

01:24:26.560 connect your

01:24:27.200 podcast listening

01:24:28.260 app, like

01:24:28.960 Spotify or

01:24:29.740 Apple Music,

01:24:30.700 and enjoy

01:24:31.320 the extended

01:24:32.260 ad-free

01:24:32.940 interviews on

01:24:34.060 the go.

01:24:34.780 Your support

01:24:35.360 will mean that

01:24:35.920 we'll be able

01:24:36.460 to do more

01:24:37.000 incredible US

01:24:38.020 and other

01:24:38.680 overseas trips

01:24:39.580 with bigger

01:24:40.340 and better

01:24:40.960 guests.

01:24:41.740 That means

01:24:42.300 more phenomenal

01:24:42.960 extra content

01:24:43.720 for you as

01:24:44.660 we get the

01:24:45.180 best minds

01:24:45.800 in the world

01:24:46.700 to talk about

01:24:47.640 the issues

01:24:48.200 that truly

01:24:48.800 matter.

01:24:49.640 No bullshit,

01:24:50.660 no fudging,

01:24:51.480 just an honest

01:24:52.040 conversation with

01:24:53.040 a fascinating

01:24:53.560 person.

01:24:54.280 Plus, I'll be

01:24:55.340 able to afford

01:24:55.940 a proper haircut.

01:24:57.180 You're not

01:24:57.420 going to get

01:24:57.800 one, but at

01:24:58.480 least you'll

01:24:58.740 be able to

01:24:59.100 afford one.

01:24:59.820 Good point.

01:25:00.500 Click the link

01:25:01.080 and join 40,000

01:25:02.880 people like

01:25:04.160 you to make

01:25:05.000 the show you

01:25:05.660 love better

01:25:06.660 again.

01:25:08.200 So you found

01:25:09.500 a bank.

01:25:11.860 So everything's

01:25:13.140 going well at

01:25:14.980 a certain point.

01:25:16.500 We wanted to

01:25:17.340 do lots of

01:25:17.960 things.

01:25:18.880 We wanted the

01:25:19.560 bank to become

01:25:20.960 the main bank

01:25:21.780 working with

01:25:23.080 Russian security

01:25:24.040 services, and

01:25:25.540 we managed it.

01:25:26.800 That's how we

01:25:27.500 ended up living

01:25:28.820 in those country

01:25:30.400 houses that you

01:25:31.240 mentioned.

01:25:31.640 That's where I

01:25:32.900 was going.

01:25:33.920 Everything was

01:25:34.500 going well, and

01:25:35.780 at a certain

01:25:36.240 point, the bank's

01:25:37.160 executives and

01:25:37.940 their families,

01:25:38.760 including you,

01:25:39.900 ended up living in

01:25:40.860 government country

01:25:41.580 houses.

01:25:42.580 Not all of us.

01:25:43.960 It was around

01:25:44.680 four or five of

01:25:45.540 us out of a

01:25:46.620 team of 12.

01:25:47.620 So four to five

01:25:48.380 of you lived in

01:25:49.000 government country

01:25:49.660 houses?

01:25:50.520 We lived in the

01:25:51.280 government country

01:25:52.000 house of Politburo

01:25:52.960 member Comrade

01:25:53.660 Pelshe.

01:25:54.420 Next door was the

01:25:55.520 country house of

01:25:56.200 Comrade Brezhnev.

01:25:57.220 So what can you

01:25:57.940 tell us about

01:25:58.520 Comrade Pelshe and

01:25:59.700 his country house?

01:26:00.600 There's not much

01:26:02.100 to say about

01:26:03.200 Pelshe.

01:26:05.340 He was a member

01:26:06.400 of the Politburo,

01:26:08.440 one of the 15

01:26:09.620 most influential

01:26:10.640 people.

01:26:11.720 I think he was

01:26:12.600 Latvian, a

01:26:14.400 communist through

01:26:15.480 and through.

01:26:16.360 He got his

01:26:16.980 country house for a

01:26:17.940 reason.

01:26:18.760 So about the

01:26:19.480 house, you saw

01:26:20.180 it yourself.

01:26:21.440 It was a small

01:26:22.560 two-story house.

01:26:24.120 Small house?

01:26:25.460 What you want to

01:26:26.980 say, it was a

01:26:28.140 palace.

01:26:28.420 Of course it

01:26:28.960 was.

01:26:28.980 It wasn't even

01:26:29.880 close.

01:26:31.660 Let's go through

01:26:32.820 it.

01:26:34.020 Ground floor,

01:26:35.460 dining room and

01:26:36.840 kitchen.

01:26:38.520 Dad, come on.

01:26:40.120 How many people

01:26:40.940 could sit in that

01:26:41.820 dining room?

01:26:43.040 You could sit

01:26:43.940 around 30 people

01:26:45.060 at that table.

01:26:46.100 With room to

01:26:46.840 spare?

01:26:47.280 It was a huge

01:26:48.040 room.

01:26:48.980 You were a small

01:26:49.600 child.

01:26:49.940 That's why it

01:26:50.440 seemed huge.

01:26:50.920 I wasn't that

01:26:52.060 small.

01:26:52.740 It was a huge

01:26:53.540 room.

01:26:54.460 It was a big

01:26:55.260 dining room.

01:26:56.000 I wouldn't

01:26:56.900 call it huge.

01:26:58.420 Big enough for

01:26:58.980 30 people?

01:27:00.040 Anyway, the

01:27:01.160 first floor had a

01:27:02.080 cinema and a

01:27:03.640 billiard room.

01:27:04.720 The size of the

01:27:05.500 room we're in,

01:27:06.560 maybe a bit

01:27:07.080 bigger.

01:27:09.760 A sitting room

01:27:11.080 and upstairs there

01:27:13.280 were two bedrooms

01:27:14.320 on each side

01:27:16.080 and an office.

01:27:18.680 And in the

01:27:19.340 basement, there

01:27:20.720 was room for

01:27:21.720 the staff,

01:27:23.240 storage and so

01:27:25.060 one.

01:27:25.720 There was a

01:27:26.040 swimming pool?

01:27:26.880 Swimming pool.

01:27:28.380 It was two

01:27:28.880 meters by 1.5.

01:27:29.880 Not a real

01:27:30.300 pool.

01:27:30.780 Swimming pool?

01:27:31.820 That's about

01:27:32.580 pretending to be

01:27:33.780 a swimming pool.

01:27:35.560 It was a

01:27:35.920 swimming pool?

01:27:36.440 It was a

01:27:37.260 tiny pool.

01:27:38.320 Let's talk

01:27:38.860 about the

01:27:39.260 staff since

01:27:39.900 you're trying

01:27:40.320 to pretend

01:27:40.800 it was a

01:27:41.260 tiny little

01:27:41.840 house.

01:27:42.860 Well, in

01:27:43.180 terms of

01:27:44.460 staff, compared

01:27:45.860 to the houses

01:27:46.480 today's rich

01:27:47.220 people live in,

01:27:48.540 it was a

01:27:49.180 very small

01:27:49.740 mansion.

01:27:50.700 What made

01:27:51.180 it big was

01:27:52.980 something else.

01:27:54.180 It had six

01:27:55.960 hectares of

01:27:56.820 forest all

01:27:58.360 around it for

01:27:59.780 security, very

01:28:01.860 important.

01:28:03.160 It had a

01:28:03.800 security detail

01:28:04.840 there around

01:28:05.540 the clock.

01:28:06.980 There was a

01:28:07.540 duty chauffeur for

01:28:09.660 the owner.

01:28:10.780 Several drivers

01:28:11.800 on rotation.

01:28:13.420 There was a

01:28:15.500 duty chauffeur for

01:28:16.920 the owner's wife

01:28:17.860 and kids.

01:28:18.920 So you had your

01:28:19.760 vehicle and a

01:28:21.080 Volga for your

01:28:21.740 family.

01:28:22.140 There were

01:28:23.220 up to three

01:28:24.020 gardeners who

01:28:25.320 looked after the

01:28:26.220 forest.

01:28:27.240 I did the

01:28:27.780 maths.

01:28:28.780 There was a

01:28:29.360 staff of 40

01:28:30.900 for one of the

01:28:32.140 top 15 people

01:28:34.080 in the country.

01:28:35.660 So let's say

01:28:36.560 600 total for

01:28:38.380 all 15.

01:28:41.360 That's nothing.

01:28:44.820 Yeah, but

01:28:46.020 that's not what

01:28:46.740 I'm talking about.

01:28:48.440 I mean, it is

01:28:50.020 all very modest.

01:28:50.980 40 staff.

01:28:52.340 That's very

01:28:52.940 modest.

01:28:54.560 Well, for

01:28:55.440 someone who's

01:28:56.440 effectively the

01:28:57.640 king's senior

01:28:58.420 advisor, that's

01:29:00.500 very modest.

01:29:02.380 That's not what

01:29:03.180 I'm talking about.

01:29:04.280 I'm saying you

01:29:05.600 were just living

01:29:06.240 in a two-room

01:29:06.940 apartment.

01:29:08.000 No, for me...

01:29:09.260 Well, that's

01:29:09.960 what I'm talking

01:29:10.420 about.

01:29:11.160 And I'm talking

01:29:12.160 about the social

01:29:12.920 situation.

01:29:13.940 For me, of

01:29:14.760 course, it was

01:29:15.260 an amazing

01:29:15.700 house.

01:29:16.060 The best

01:29:17.460 thing was that

01:29:18.700 at one point

01:29:20.160 some Chechen

01:29:21.800 criminals tried

01:29:23.000 to raid our

01:29:23.600 bank to get

01:29:24.700 back something

01:29:25.180 they'd lost.

01:29:26.340 It was their

01:29:27.640 own fault.

01:29:29.180 I said,

01:29:29.960 tell them to

01:29:31.260 come to my

01:29:32.000 house for a

01:29:32.820 cup of tea

01:29:33.480 and we'll sort

01:29:35.140 everything out.

01:29:36.400 They came to

01:29:37.240 this country

01:29:37.880 house, had a

01:29:39.120 cup of tea

01:29:39.640 in complete

01:29:41.020 silence, and

01:29:42.040 then left with

01:29:42.540 the words,

01:29:43.280 we have no

01:29:43.640 issue with you.

01:29:44.200 afterwards, the

01:29:45.680 people who were

01:29:46.180 tracking them

01:29:46.600 for us said

01:29:47.300 that they went

01:29:48.080 back to their

01:29:48.500 bosses and

01:29:48.980 said, we

01:29:49.940 nearly came

01:29:50.620 into conflict

01:29:51.500 with the

01:29:52.060 people who

01:29:52.740 run this

01:29:53.280 country.

01:29:54.160 They let us

01:29:55.160 live, so

01:29:56.420 let's get out

01:29:57.960 of here and

01:29:59.280 make sure we

01:30:00.200 never cross

01:30:00.920 them again.

01:30:03.000 That's how

01:30:03.780 things were

01:30:04.940 back then.

01:30:06.640 So that's how

01:30:07.720 it was back

01:30:08.400 then and how

01:30:08.980 conflicts got

01:30:09.760 resolved.

01:30:10.640 My childhood

01:30:11.520 memories are

01:30:12.340 that things were

01:30:13.060 going along

01:30:13.740 nicely, and

01:30:15.060 then suddenly

01:30:15.800 we were back

01:30:17.040 to the two

01:30:17.740 room apartment.

01:30:19.300 Yes, because

01:30:21.300 there was a

01:30:22.120 rebellion by

01:30:23.560 the people who

01:30:24.760 had joined our

01:30:26.000 business group

01:30:27.400 later on.

01:30:29.900 As a result,

01:30:32.220 our main

01:30:33.340 leader left

01:30:35.500 the country.

01:30:37.780 They tried to

01:30:39.320 kill him.

01:30:40.880 It was a big

01:30:41.940 mess.

01:30:42.420 I left the

01:30:43.900 bank because

01:30:44.720 I obviously

01:30:45.500 wasn't wanted

01:30:46.700 anymore, and

01:30:48.480 I didn't want

01:30:49.300 to stay.

01:30:50.460 I wasn't part

01:30:51.720 of the gang

01:30:52.520 that won.

01:30:53.960 And that gang

01:30:54.840 tried to take

01:30:55.460 everything?

01:30:56.320 Their argument

01:30:58.100 was, why make

01:31:00.560 long-term plans?

01:31:02.100 Let's just split

01:31:03.160 the cash right

01:31:03.920 now.

01:31:04.720 Whereas he

01:31:06.120 said, we have

01:31:07.740 enough for now,

01:31:08.600 let's invest.

01:31:11.180 They said, no,

01:31:12.340 let's split it

01:31:13.240 now.

01:31:13.940 He was also

01:31:14.580 wrong.

01:31:15.160 I don't think he

01:31:15.880 was a saint, and

01:31:16.720 they were evil.

01:31:17.980 They were evil, but

01:31:19.040 he was also

01:31:19.700 seriously wrong.

01:31:21.760 In the end, the

01:31:23.460 team split apart,

01:31:25.100 and the bank

01:31:27.440 went downhill

01:31:28.640 pretty quickly

01:31:29.840 after that.

01:31:32.160 Correct me if

01:31:33.180 I'm wrong, but

01:31:34.120 the leader, he

01:31:35.560 ran away to

01:31:36.520 the US and

01:31:37.360 took almost all

01:31:38.360 the money,

01:31:39.040 right?

01:31:40.060 Well, there

01:31:40.760 wasn't that much

01:31:41.740 to take.

01:31:42.320 There wasn't a

01:31:43.060 lot of cash

01:31:43.780 specifically.

01:31:45.940 He went to

01:31:46.920 America and

01:31:48.420 took some

01:31:50.340 money.

01:31:51.380 Yes, he

01:31:52.560 thought he'd

01:31:53.040 be able to

01:31:53.580 handle them.

01:31:54.160 He only

01:31:55.220 left to

01:31:55.780 avoid being

01:31:56.440 killed, but

01:31:57.780 he couldn't

01:31:58.300 handle them.

01:32:00.520 And so

01:32:01.340 he and

01:32:03.320 two of us

01:32:04.380 who were

01:32:05.060 his closest

01:32:05.920 associates,

01:32:07.200 we lost.

01:32:09.180 We were

01:32:09.700 forced out.

01:32:11.740 With

01:32:12.460 nothing.

01:32:14.380 Not

01:32:14.980 with

01:32:15.520 nothing.

01:32:17.420 One of

01:32:18.220 them even

01:32:19.300 wanted to

01:32:20.220 take my

01:32:20.800 apartment.

01:32:22.360 Not the

01:32:23.100 one where

01:32:23.600 we lived,

01:32:24.160 but the

01:32:24.640 one the

01:32:25.960 boss bought

01:32:26.580 for me as

01:32:28.080 a gift for

01:32:29.680 my good

01:32:30.180 work.

01:32:31.120 They wanted

01:32:31.800 to take it

01:32:32.580 but didn't.

01:32:34.020 So you

01:32:34.400 kept the

01:32:34.840 apartment but

01:32:35.540 no money?

01:32:36.680 No money,

01:32:37.900 no job,

01:32:39.040 but I

01:32:39.620 already had

01:32:40.200 connections at

01:32:40.980 this point.

01:32:42.080 And two

01:32:42.380 days later I

01:32:43.040 was put

01:32:43.460 forward to

01:32:44.600 be the

01:32:45.800 vice

01:32:46.060 president of

01:32:47.260 an international

01:32:47.920 fund where

01:32:49.020 I worked for

01:32:49.680 some time

01:32:50.220 until my

01:32:50.920 colleague,

01:32:51.980 the vice

01:32:52.320 president of

01:32:52.920 this other

01:32:53.540 fund,

01:32:54.420 was appointed

01:32:55.020 a government

01:32:55.560 minister and

01:32:56.800 he asked me

01:32:57.280 to be his

01:32:57.760 deputy.

01:32:58.940 So you

01:32:59.720 created a

01:33:00.600 bank, it

01:33:01.140 grew rapidly

01:33:02.020 and then

01:33:02.560 exploded

01:33:03.160 rapidly.

01:33:04.540 There was a

01:33:05.380 power struggle

01:33:06.280 and it fell

01:33:07.100 apart.

01:33:07.940 In the space

01:33:08.820 of just a

01:33:09.500 few years?

01:33:10.800 Yes.

01:33:11.560 So you

01:33:12.000 ended up

01:33:12.460 kind of with

01:33:12.960 nothing but

01:33:13.700 you had

01:33:14.100 connections so

01:33:14.880 you found a

01:33:15.480 new job where

01:33:16.140 you were doing

01:33:16.620 well and earning

01:33:17.280 good money and

01:33:18.540 then you're

01:33:18.940 asked to become a

01:33:19.880 deputy minister for

01:33:20.880 relations with

01:33:21.580 CIS countries.

01:33:23.740 Yes, because

01:33:24.760 my colleague

01:33:25.320 who appreciated

01:33:26.940 my work a

01:33:28.260 long time

01:33:28.640 before that,

01:33:29.720 Boris Yeltsin

01:33:30.360 was sent to

01:33:31.600 work under

01:33:31.980 him and

01:33:33.460 he was told

01:33:35.900 to ruin

01:33:36.700 Yeltsin's

01:33:38.220 career.

01:33:39.320 He was

01:33:39.760 construction

01:33:40.420 minister then

01:33:41.440 but he

01:33:42.760 didn't, he

01:33:43.360 took pity on

01:33:44.180 him and

01:33:45.540 looked after

01:33:46.180 him and

01:33:47.000 Yeltsin

01:33:47.340 didn't forget.

01:33:48.680 And made

01:33:49.140 him a

01:33:49.480 minister?

01:33:50.700 Yeltsin

01:33:51.220 made him

01:33:52.180 a minister

01:33:52.660 and he

01:33:53.640 was effectively

01:33:54.220 appointed to

01:33:54.940 challenge the

01:33:55.460 foreign ministry.

01:33:57.020 The

01:33:57.260 foreign ministry

01:33:58.860 would deal

01:33:59.500 with the

01:34:00.020 US and

01:34:00.440 Europe

01:34:00.760 whereas my

01:34:02.200 boss would

01:34:02.680 deal with

01:34:03.140 former Soviet

01:34:03.780 countries

01:34:04.360 which were

01:34:05.640 now independent.

01:34:07.160 In my role

01:34:07.800 I went to

01:34:08.740 Ukraine twice

01:34:09.500 to lead

01:34:09.900 negotiations

01:34:10.560 regarding

01:34:11.160 the Black

01:34:12.420 Sea Fleet.

01:34:13.600 We'll come

01:34:14.120 to that.

01:34:15.020 Let's just

01:34:15.620 get the

01:34:16.000 timeline

01:34:16.400 established.

01:34:17.400 When did

01:34:17.960 you become

01:34:18.400 a minister?

01:34:18.940 1993 or

01:34:20.520 1994?

01:34:21.560 1993 I

01:34:22.400 think.

01:34:22.960 For a

01:34:23.320 Western

01:34:23.620 audience whose

01:34:24.400 only Russian

01:34:25.340 knowledge is

01:34:26.020 Putin, this

01:34:27.540 is way before

01:34:28.580 Putin.

01:34:29.620 It was under

01:34:30.280 Yeltsin.

01:34:31.040 Under Yeltsin.

01:34:32.240 So you're

01:34:32.780 appointed deputy

01:34:33.700 minister.

01:34:34.800 By the time

01:34:35.400 Putin was

01:34:36.060 appointed, I

01:34:37.300 was no longer

01:34:37.900 in Russia.

01:34:39.000 We'll talk

01:34:39.480 about that

01:34:39.960 because there's

01:34:41.560 this idea on

01:34:42.400 the internet

01:34:42.840 that I'm

01:34:43.260 critical of

01:34:44.020 Putin's

01:34:44.460 actions because

01:34:45.280 my father was

01:34:46.620 an oligarch

01:34:47.440 who fled

01:34:48.040 from Putin.

01:34:49.520 I'm no

01:34:49.960 oligarch and

01:34:50.680 I didn't flee

01:34:51.320 from Putin.

01:34:52.460 I left

01:34:52.980 during the

01:34:54.040 Yeltsin era.

01:34:55.360 Okay.

01:34:56.160 So you're

01:34:57.020 appointed deputy

01:34:57.820 minister.

01:34:58.800 For finance and

01:34:59.900 economics there

01:35:00.580 were two

01:35:00.940 issues.

01:35:03.120 Each deputy

01:35:05.680 minister was

01:35:07.260 responsible for

01:35:08.860 something like

01:35:10.060 finance and

01:35:11.180 economics,

01:35:13.300 construction or

01:35:14.500 transportation and

01:35:16.940 the second

01:35:17.540 area of

01:35:18.440 responsibility was

01:35:20.300 regional.

01:35:22.640 So I was

01:35:23.780 responsible for

01:35:24.860 finance and

01:35:25.680 economics across

01:35:26.780 all the regions

01:35:27.640 and for all

01:35:29.000 matters for

01:35:30.280 Belarus and

01:35:31.880 the Baltic

01:35:32.480 states.

01:35:33.900 I see.

01:35:35.060 For example,

01:35:36.060 the union with

01:35:36.880 Belarus, this

01:35:38.000 single country

01:35:38.920 idea, I

01:35:40.220 worked on

01:35:40.820 that.

01:35:42.480 So what

01:35:44.020 were the

01:35:44.400 goals you

01:35:44.880 were set?

01:35:46.800 What was

01:35:47.380 Russia's foreign

01:35:48.140 policy towards

01:35:49.180 former Soviet

01:35:49.920 countries at

01:35:50.620 this point?

01:35:52.000 Well, I

01:35:52.640 didn't accept

01:35:53.360 the job because

01:35:54.380 I had dreamt

01:35:55.700 of being deputy

01:35:56.600 minister.

01:35:57.900 The minister

01:35:58.520 showed me a

01:35:59.500 decree signed

01:36:01.400 by Yeltsin on

01:36:03.140 his request,

01:36:04.220 which made it

01:36:05.320 clear that our

01:36:06.160 ministry was no

01:36:07.320 longer just there

01:36:08.400 to resolve

01:36:09.020 conflicts.

01:36:09.760 rising from

01:36:11.200 the U.S.

01:36:12.040 S.R.'s

01:36:14.180 collapse.

01:36:16.640 Its job

01:36:17.620 was now

01:36:18.960 to advance

01:36:20.720 Russia's

01:36:21.660 interests

01:36:22.420 in former

01:36:24.020 and future

01:36:24.900 neighboring

01:36:25.540 countries.

01:36:27.800 So what

01:36:29.140 were Russia's

01:36:29.860 interests at

01:36:30.540 this time,

01:36:31.100 as you

01:36:31.460 understood

01:36:31.980 them?

01:36:32.360 The main

01:36:34.580 interest was,

01:36:36.220 for example,

01:36:37.940 with Belarus,

01:36:38.700 we wanted to

01:36:39.260 create a single

01:36:40.060 country,

01:36:41.140 another union.

01:36:42.440 The countries

01:36:43.120 in it would

01:36:43.740 have more

01:36:44.280 independence,

01:36:45.380 but it would

01:36:46.000 have been a

01:36:46.680 union.

01:36:47.580 We wanted to

01:36:48.700 recreate our

01:36:49.520 country.

01:36:50.680 That's why

01:36:51.380 I agreed

01:36:52.940 to take

01:36:54.360 the job

01:36:54.960 in accordance

01:36:56.720 with the

01:36:57.460 decree.

01:36:57.920 It wasn't

01:37:00.220 well-paid,

01:37:01.080 was it?

01:37:03.240 Not only

01:37:03.700 that,

01:37:04.360 they even

01:37:04.920 took my

01:37:05.440 car away

01:37:06.000 that I was

01:37:07.020 supposed to

01:37:07.560 have as a

01:37:08.600 deputy minister.

01:37:09.900 I used my

01:37:10.660 own.

01:37:11.260 So you

01:37:11.980 gave up

01:37:12.400 money to

01:37:12.780 do this?

01:37:14.500 Well,

01:37:14.960 I was

01:37:15.420 spending the

01:37:16.440 money I'd

01:37:17.200 saved.

01:37:17.700 I was

01:37:18.120 paid a

01:37:18.800 salary.

01:37:19.580 How much?

01:37:20.380 It was a

01:37:21.140 decent salary

01:37:22.260 by the

01:37:22.960 standards of

01:37:23.900 that time.

01:37:25.460 But how

01:37:26.000 much?

01:37:26.860 I don't

01:37:27.320 remember.

01:37:28.040 It was a

01:37:28.580 long time

01:37:29.060 ago.

01:37:29.740 Was it

01:37:30.080 $100 or

01:37:31.000 $100,000?

01:37:32.360 I don't

01:37:33.180 even remember

01:37:34.060 how much

01:37:34.740 it was

01:37:35.300 in rubles,

01:37:37.440 similar to

01:37:38.400 what a

01:37:39.500 university

01:37:40.220 professor would

01:37:41.240 have been

01:37:41.660 paid.

01:37:42.620 Okay,

01:37:43.060 but compared

01:37:43.600 to the

01:37:43.980 salary you

01:37:44.480 had in

01:37:44.820 your previous

01:37:45.280 job?

01:37:46.140 Oh,

01:37:47.040 it was

01:37:48.120 ridiculously

01:37:48.780 small.

01:37:50.640 I agreed

01:37:51.500 to work

01:37:52.160 there for

01:37:52.780 way less

01:37:53.460 than I was

01:37:54.180 earning before

01:37:55.100 because it

01:37:56.700 was what I

01:37:57.380 wanted to

01:37:57.980 do.

01:37:58.680 You

01:37:58.880 wanted to

01:37:59.260 recreate the

01:37:59.700 USSR?

01:38:01.380 Yes,

01:38:02.560 to end the

01:38:04.040 negative effects

01:38:05.280 of the

01:38:05.780 collapse.

01:38:07.500 What

01:38:08.180 negative effects

01:38:09.360 exactly?

01:38:11.940 Well,

01:38:12.720 the worst

01:38:14.040 thing that

01:38:14.740 happened was

01:38:15.760 mortality went

01:38:17.360 way up.

01:38:18.040 up, the

01:38:19.680 population of

01:38:21.060 Russia fell

01:38:22.420 in comparison

01:38:23.940 to projections

01:38:25.340 in a

01:38:27.000 similar way

01:38:28.060 to how it

01:38:28.940 fell during

01:38:29.860 World War

01:38:30.660 II.

01:38:32.640 It was

01:38:33.860 terrible.

01:38:35.320 Because mortality

01:38:36.180 went up, not

01:38:36.880 because some

01:38:37.380 countries split

01:38:38.120 off.

01:38:38.940 It was

01:38:39.520 mortality.

01:38:40.780 Russia lost

01:38:41.460 20 million

01:38:42.160 people.

01:38:43.320 Correct,

01:38:44.080 yes.

01:38:44.440 This was

01:38:45.580 due to

01:38:46.180 alcoholism

01:38:47.240 and drugs?

01:38:49.360 Murders

01:38:49.920 and other

01:38:51.840 things.

01:38:52.300 Criminality.

01:38:53.620 To put it

01:38:54.620 simply, life

01:38:55.980 became very

01:38:56.600 hard.

01:38:57.680 Average life

01:38:58.320 expectancy

01:38:58.980 fell sharply.

01:39:00.920 The number

01:39:01.320 of deaths

01:39:02.020 spiked,

01:39:03.760 huge losses.

01:39:05.120 It hadn't yet

01:39:05.880 happened fully,

01:39:07.040 but you could

01:39:07.740 see it coming.

01:39:09.540 Those were

01:39:10.380 terrible years.

01:39:11.420 I can tell

01:39:13.140 you that

01:39:13.720 as a

01:39:14.660 deputy

01:39:15.020 minister,

01:39:16.320 formally,

01:39:18.080 people in

01:39:18.860 my position

01:39:19.580 weren't being

01:39:20.400 assassinated

01:39:21.300 because

01:39:22.740 murderers

01:39:23.740 still had

01:39:24.380 fear and

01:39:26.200 respect for

01:39:28.000 government

01:39:28.600 officials.

01:39:29.940 But still,

01:39:30.460 every time I

01:39:31.040 went home,

01:39:32.240 I knew local

01:39:32.960 criminals could

01:39:33.840 be waiting to

01:39:34.620 stab me to

01:39:35.180 death near our

01:39:35.940 apartment block.

01:39:36.880 Why?

01:39:37.420 What for?

01:39:38.200 Just like

01:39:38.760 that.

01:39:39.480 Because maybe

01:39:40.580 I had money

01:39:41.120 in my pocket

01:39:41.700 and when

01:39:42.560 leaving work,

01:39:43.720 I would call

01:39:44.200 my wife saying,

01:39:45.400 I've left.

01:39:46.460 Arriving home

01:39:47.100 before getting

01:39:48.000 out of the

01:39:48.420 car, I would

01:39:49.360 say, I've

01:39:50.300 arrived at the

01:39:50.880 entrance.

01:39:51.680 I'm getting

01:39:52.100 out.

01:39:53.020 You see,

01:39:53.360 that's how we

01:39:53.840 lived.

01:39:53.940 It wasn't

01:39:54.340 easy.

01:39:55.200 So, the

01:39:56.200 country was

01:39:56.960 really struggling

01:39:57.960 across the

01:39:58.780 board.

01:39:59.880 Yes.

01:40:00.840 Was the

01:40:01.400 first war in

01:40:02.340 Chechnya already

01:40:03.180 happening?

01:40:04.520 Yes.

01:40:05.480 So, you've

01:40:05.980 got war,

01:40:06.920 criminality,

01:40:07.860 terrorism,

01:40:08.860 prostitutes

01:40:09.420 everywhere.

01:40:09.860 I remember it

01:40:10.340 was like that.

01:40:11.120 It was

01:40:11.680 terrible.

01:40:13.140 Absolutely

01:40:13.740 terrible.

01:40:14.840 It was good

01:40:15.620 for people who

01:40:16.620 wanted to

01:40:17.220 become super

01:40:18.000 rich.

01:40:18.880 If you tried

01:40:19.960 really hard

01:40:20.700 and managed

01:40:21.820 to survive,

01:40:23.200 if you

01:40:23.620 weren't killed,

01:40:24.900 you could

01:40:25.320 become super

01:40:26.180 rich.

01:40:26.980 But for

01:40:27.700 normal people,

01:40:29.140 it was

01:40:29.620 terrible.

01:40:31.580 Did you know

01:40:32.700 people who were

01:40:33.500 killed during

01:40:34.060 this period?

01:40:34.680 there was a

01:40:37.580 guy whose

01:40:38.240 apartment I

01:40:39.660 asked to

01:40:40.320 stay at

01:40:40.900 once because

01:40:41.780 of the

01:40:42.360 problems I

01:40:43.120 had later

01:40:44.640 on in

01:40:46.040 the story.

01:40:47.240 He took

01:40:47.960 me to an

01:40:48.580 empty

01:40:48.880 apartment he

01:40:50.780 used to

01:40:51.280 live in.

01:40:53.020 I spent

01:40:53.820 three days

01:40:54.280 there and

01:40:54.820 then gave

01:40:55.200 the keys

01:40:55.580 back to

01:40:55.960 him.

01:40:56.660 The next

01:40:57.040 day when

01:40:57.420 he came

01:40:57.820 back to

01:40:58.160 the apartment

01:40:58.620 with those

01:40:59.160 same keys,

01:41:00.240 someone shot

01:41:00.840 him dead.

01:41:02.060 A professional

01:41:02.680 hit.

01:41:04.300 Why was he

01:41:04.780 assassinated?

01:41:05.840 A lot of

01:41:06.360 people owed

01:41:07.560 him money and

01:41:08.820 one of them

01:41:09.460 didn't want to

01:41:10.780 pay it back.

01:41:11.660 It was easier

01:41:12.340 to kill him

01:41:12.960 than to pay

01:41:13.520 him back.

01:41:14.420 Yes.

01:41:15.060 So the

01:41:15.360 country's down

01:41:16.000 in the dumps.

01:41:17.000 Then you're

01:41:17.500 appointed

01:41:17.900 minister?

01:41:19.120 Deputy

01:41:19.520 minister.

01:41:20.480 They wouldn't

01:41:21.180 have made

01:41:21.600 me minister.

01:41:23.560 So it's

01:41:24.300 all terrible.

01:41:25.540 But what

01:41:26.020 does this

01:41:26.380 have to do

01:41:26.800 with you and

01:41:27.660 former Soviet

01:41:28.380 countries?

01:41:29.160 How is

01:41:29.840 all this

01:41:30.280 related?

01:41:31.580 The

01:41:31.820 country's

01:41:32.360 decline and

01:41:33.180 what you

01:41:33.600 could do

01:41:33.980 to rebuild

01:41:34.660 the USSR?

01:41:36.220 The

01:41:36.660 decline of

01:41:38.840 the country

01:41:39.700 was a

01:41:41.960 consequence

01:41:42.560 of what

01:41:43.400 was going

01:41:44.140 on and

01:41:45.380 led to

01:41:45.960 the collapse

01:41:46.760 of the

01:41:47.320 USSR.

01:41:48.580 If you

01:41:49.420 remember,

01:41:50.800 and you

01:41:51.300 probably

01:41:51.880 don't,

01:41:53.180 every

01:41:53.500 country in

01:41:54.260 the USSR

01:41:54.940 voted on

01:41:57.560 ending the

01:41:58.520 USSR.

01:42:00.220 In Ukraine,

01:42:01.480 everyone

01:42:02.060 voted to

01:42:03.220 stay in.

01:42:04.540 Can you

01:42:05.060 imagine that?

01:42:07.120 A few

01:42:07.600 years went

01:42:09.800 by and

01:42:11.400 we've got a

01:42:12.340 different

01:42:12.760 situation,

01:42:14.000 but that

01:42:14.820 applied to

01:42:15.580 everyone.

01:42:17.020 Me too.

01:42:17.920 I thought I

01:42:18.920 had a chance

01:42:19.640 to remedy

01:42:20.360 the mistakes.

01:42:22.000 That's what I

01:42:23.100 tried to do.

01:42:23.920 the agreement

01:42:25.900 with Belarus

01:42:26.920 was an

01:42:27.780 example of

01:42:28.760 something I

01:42:29.620 took part

01:42:30.360 in.

01:42:31.300 I can't

01:42:32.080 say it

01:42:32.580 was just

01:42:33.380 me doing

01:42:34.140 it, but

01:42:35.400 I was very

01:42:36.240 involved.

01:42:37.580 It's still

01:42:38.320 relevant today.

01:42:41.620 Why did

01:42:42.080 the USSR

01:42:42.860 collapse?

01:42:43.700 Why did

01:42:46.360 the USSR

01:42:47.180 collapse?

01:42:48.520 I can't

01:42:49.440 tell you

01:42:49.820 easily.

01:42:50.940 Sorry,

01:42:52.020 I mean,

01:42:52.460 I can't

01:42:52.900 tell you

01:42:53.260 easily.

01:42:54.320 There were

01:42:54.760 many reasons.

01:42:56.180 One of

01:42:56.640 them we've

01:42:57.180 mentioned.

01:42:58.820 The Soviet

01:42:59.340 Union was

01:43:00.020 rotting and

01:43:00.700 the system

01:43:01.280 which held

01:43:01.860 it up

01:43:02.260 had been

01:43:03.680 breaking down

01:43:04.500 for a long

01:43:05.080 time.

01:43:05.940 For example,

01:43:06.620 under Khrushchev,

01:43:07.760 they began

01:43:08.400 to promote

01:43:09.820 hiring of

01:43:10.520 local people

01:43:11.280 in the

01:43:12.140 republics.

01:43:14.500 Gradually,

01:43:15.720 they began

01:43:17.280 to give

01:43:17.920 preference to

01:43:19.080 local

01:43:19.620 nationalities

01:43:20.600 in everything.

01:43:22.080 Basically,

01:43:22.940 they encouraged

01:43:23.740 local

01:43:24.220 nationalism,

01:43:25.400 which was

01:43:26.280 in contradiction

01:43:27.260 to the

01:43:28.940 Soviet system.

01:43:30.860 Basically,

01:43:31.740 an empire

01:43:32.100 can't survive

01:43:32.800 this.

01:43:33.620 The end

01:43:34.220 result

01:43:34.940 was that

01:43:36.720 by the

01:43:38.160 time I

01:43:38.620 was a

01:43:39.120 young man

01:43:39.820 in

01:43:40.760 Uzbekistan,

01:43:42.020 it became

01:43:42.980 impossible

01:43:43.580 to get

01:43:44.360 to the

01:43:44.800 top

01:43:45.220 if you

01:43:46.440 were not

01:43:47.120 Uzbek.

01:43:50.340 You're not

01:43:51.000 an Uzbek,

01:43:51.480 so you

01:43:51.740 can't be

01:43:52.060 a manager

01:43:52.440 here.

01:43:53.280 You can

01:43:53.600 be his

01:43:53.940 deputy,

01:43:54.400 but not

01:43:54.700 the top

01:43:55.040 manager.

01:43:55.840 The manager

01:43:56.300 must be

01:43:56.760 an Uzbek.

01:43:57.580 This is

01:43:57.980 crazy.

01:43:58.560 Not because

01:43:59.100 there's

01:43:59.380 anything wrong

01:43:59.960 with Uzbeks.

01:44:00.500 The same

01:44:00.820 in Russia.

01:44:01.680 The top

01:44:02.100 manager

01:44:02.460 doesn't have

01:44:03.020 to be

01:44:03.320 Russian.

01:44:05.000 Yes,

01:44:05.580 an empire

01:44:06.100 can't work

01:44:06.680 like this.

01:44:07.120 It's

01:44:07.240 impossible.

01:44:08.220 Yes,

01:44:08.580 that was

01:44:10.140 how

01:44:10.420 Khrushchev

01:44:11.140 destroyed

01:44:11.800 the empire.

01:44:14.140 So,

01:44:14.700 it was

01:44:15.180 decay of

01:44:15.840 communist

01:44:16.280 ideology,

01:44:17.200 decay of

01:44:17.820 nationalism.

01:44:19.340 A rise

01:44:20.380 in nationalism,

01:44:22.340 yes.

01:44:23.220 What about

01:44:23.700 the economic

01:44:24.340 side of

01:44:24.800 things,

01:44:25.120 the arms

01:44:25.560 race,

01:44:26.100 etc.?

01:44:26.920 That was

01:44:27.740 damaging

01:44:28.360 too,

01:44:29.580 but if

01:44:30.520 the people

01:44:31.400 who were

01:44:32.900 prepared to

01:44:33.880 take power

01:44:34.800 in their

01:44:35.880 countries

01:44:36.800 by any

01:44:37.740 means

01:44:38.340 necessary,

01:44:40.460 and by

01:44:41.120 their

01:44:41.480 country

01:44:42.080 they didn't

01:44:43.020 mean the

01:44:43.640 USSR,

01:44:45.340 they meant

01:44:46.240 any territory

01:44:47.320 where they

01:44:48.660 could get

01:44:49.300 to the top,

01:44:50.700 the people

01:44:51.260 who broke

01:44:51.860 apart the

01:44:53.220 Soviet Union

01:44:54.000 from the

01:44:54.460 inside,

01:44:55.000 including

01:44:55.460 Yeltsin,

01:44:56.820 sacrificed the

01:44:57.760 Soviet Union

01:44:58.520 in exchange

01:44:59.340 for being

01:44:59.980 in charge.

01:45:01.860 The price

01:45:03.040 we paid

01:45:03.640 for that

01:45:04.200 was nationalism

01:45:05.440 in each

01:45:06.860 country.

01:45:08.260 Ukrainian

01:45:08.780 nationalism

01:45:09.640 happened

01:45:10.340 because the

01:45:11.720 Ukrainian

01:45:12.240 who signed

01:45:13.520 this thing

01:45:14.200 with Yeltsin

01:45:15.020 wanted to

01:45:16.380 be in

01:45:16.820 charge of

01:45:17.320 Ukraine.

01:45:18.920 At least

01:45:19.980 I'll be in

01:45:20.700 charge of

01:45:21.180 Ukraine,

01:45:21.960 of something.

01:45:23.400 Yeltsin

01:45:23.840 was the

01:45:24.280 same.

01:45:24.940 He wasn't

01:45:25.520 worthy.

01:45:26.700 You mentioned

01:45:27.260 the union

01:45:27.840 with Belarus.

01:45:29.240 How do

01:45:29.940 you assess

01:45:30.960 not your

01:45:32.580 own

01:45:32.900 achievements,

01:45:33.540 but the

01:45:34.200 results

01:45:34.880 your

01:45:35.660 ministry

01:45:36.280 and Russia

01:45:37.080 achieved

01:45:37.860 in rebuilding

01:45:38.780 the USSR?

01:45:41.040 It was

01:45:41.840 a horror

01:45:42.520 show.

01:45:43.980 By this

01:45:44.560 point,

01:45:47.180 Yeltsin

01:45:47.760 was surrounded

01:45:48.720 mainly by

01:45:49.640 people with

01:45:50.660 Western values

01:45:51.980 who had

01:45:53.180 been given

01:45:53.860 clear instructions

01:45:55.160 to collapse

01:45:56.180 the Soviet

01:45:56.860 Union.

01:45:58.900 How would

01:46:00.020 you describe

01:46:00.720 the concept

01:46:01.400 of Western

01:46:02.000 values?

01:46:02.540 by Western

01:46:04.240 values,

01:46:05.920 I don't

01:46:06.620 mean what

01:46:07.500 people in

01:46:08.140 the West

01:46:08.600 ought to

01:46:09.060 do.

01:46:09.820 I mean,

01:46:10.360 they believed

01:46:10.900 that Russia

01:46:12.240 should not

01:46:12.900 be a

01:46:13.300 powerful

01:46:13.680 country,

01:46:14.920 that everything

01:46:16.740 in Russia

01:46:17.340 must be

01:46:17.900 subordinate

01:46:18.440 to the

01:46:18.960 West.

01:46:20.100 Westerners,

01:46:21.220 i.e.

01:46:22.020 Americans,

01:46:23.240 came to

01:46:23.780 write Russia's

01:46:24.960 constitution.

01:46:25.580 I saw

01:46:26.700 this with

01:46:27.180 my own

01:46:27.580 eyes,

01:46:28.520 so the

01:46:28.880 constitution

01:46:29.540 written under

01:46:31.240 Yeltsin

01:46:31.900 was written

01:46:33.260 for Russia

01:46:34.680 by Americans,

01:46:36.600 and it

01:46:37.280 wasn't a

01:46:37.800 constitution

01:46:38.340 for a

01:46:39.500 sovereign

01:46:39.800 country.

01:46:40.960 Why do you

01:46:41.520 say that?

01:46:42.040 What made it

01:46:43.160 incompatible

01:46:43.860 with sovereignty?

01:46:44.540 There were a

01:46:46.420 lot of

01:46:46.940 things.

01:46:48.420 Overall,

01:46:49.240 it had

01:46:49.740 everything it

01:46:50.700 needed to

01:46:51.540 have to

01:46:53.160 ensure the

01:46:54.340 global dominance

01:46:55.540 of one

01:46:56.380 country.

01:46:57.580 Can you give

01:46:58.280 some examples?

01:46:59.660 I would need

01:47:00.580 the text in

01:47:01.660 front of me.

01:47:03.060 These are

01:47:03.740 boring texts.

01:47:05.120 No, but

01:47:06.440 sorry, you're

01:47:07.660 saying things

01:47:08.480 that require

01:47:09.160 evidence in

01:47:10.040 my view.

01:47:11.580 I can tell

01:47:12.120 you that

01:47:12.540 anyone who

01:47:13.340 read the

01:47:13.720 text as

01:47:14.160 I did

01:47:14.520 could see

01:47:15.680 it with

01:47:16.020 their own

01:47:16.360 eyes.

01:47:17.340 Forgive me,

01:47:18.280 but it's

01:47:18.700 been a very

01:47:19.140 long time

01:47:19.600 since I was

01:47:20.200 involved in

01:47:20.740 these things.

01:47:22.060 Sure, I

01:47:22.740 understand,

01:47:23.640 but...

01:47:24.140 There was

01:47:24.740 a time I

01:47:25.600 read all

01:47:26.420 of this.

01:47:27.920 There are

01:47:28.300 people watching

01:47:29.020 and listening

01:47:29.480 who might be

01:47:30.080 interested.

01:47:31.200 You're saying

01:47:31.780 things they

01:47:32.400 haven't heard

01:47:33.160 and might not

01:47:34.000 agree with.

01:47:35.120 They can

01:47:36.320 read the

01:47:37.360 Russian

01:47:38.040 Constitution

01:47:39.400 and see

01:47:40.600 a lot of

01:47:41.600 interesting

01:47:42.440 things in

01:47:43.720 it.

01:47:44.880 Let them

01:47:45.780 read it.

01:47:46.580 I'm not

01:47:47.200 going to

01:47:47.660 prove anything.

01:47:48.840 Why is

01:47:49.160 that?

01:47:49.880 Because I've

01:47:50.780 forgotten

01:47:51.300 most of

01:47:52.060 it.

01:47:52.320 I've

01:47:52.600 proved it

01:47:53.280 many times

01:47:54.200 before.

01:47:55.560 Well,

01:47:56.120 people are

01:47:56.680 just interested.

01:47:58.380 Forgive me,

01:47:58.940 but since I

01:47:59.460 had COVID,

01:48:00.420 I started

01:48:01.060 to forget

01:48:01.580 things I

01:48:02.100 used to

01:48:02.460 know.

01:48:02.940 I'm

01:48:03.220 forgetting

01:48:03.580 things without

01:48:04.240 COVID,

01:48:04.780 too.

01:48:05.120 I'm just

01:48:05.920 saying that

01:48:06.380 if you're

01:48:06.940 going to

01:48:07.320 say,

01:48:07.960 I read

01:48:08.580 every word

01:48:09.500 of that

01:48:10.060 Constitution.

01:48:12.200 I am not

01:48:12.700 even disputing

01:48:13.480 what you're

01:48:13.820 saying.

01:48:14.600 But for our

01:48:15.380 audience to

01:48:15.940 understand,

01:48:16.780 you need to

01:48:17.400 explain the

01:48:18.060 mechanism.

01:48:19.200 Not really.

01:48:20.480 It's enough

01:48:21.280 to know this

01:48:21.820 Constitution was

01:48:22.620 written by

01:48:23.120 American experts

01:48:23.920 invited to

01:48:24.540 Moscow.

01:48:25.200 I saw it

01:48:25.840 with my own

01:48:26.320 eyes.

01:48:26.940 I saw them.

01:48:28.180 Fine.

01:48:28.760 But what

01:48:29.260 was the loss

01:48:29.800 of sovereignty?

01:48:30.540 Was Russia

01:48:31.080 stripped of its

01:48:32.360 nuclear weapons,

01:48:33.240 or what was it?

01:48:33.900 It was

01:48:34.860 stripped of

01:48:35.520 many things.

01:48:37.340 But nuclear

01:48:38.460 weapons aren't

01:48:39.700 regulated by

01:48:40.520 the Constitution.

01:48:41.860 That's a

01:48:42.440 military issue.

01:48:43.900 The Constitution

01:48:44.560 regulates the

01:48:45.580 rights of the

01:48:47.020 citizens and

01:48:48.420 the rules for

01:48:49.800 interacting with

01:48:51.400 other nations,

01:48:52.720 among many

01:48:53.420 other things.

01:48:54.700 The Constitution

01:48:56.400 they offered

01:48:57.300 us guaranteed

01:48:59.100 we would

01:49:00.460 never be able

01:49:01.520 to rebuild

01:49:02.460 the Soviet

01:49:03.380 Union.

01:49:04.480 Yes.

01:49:05.260 And in my

01:49:05.900 view, that

01:49:06.420 was wrong.

01:49:07.260 So it was

01:49:07.800 against the

01:49:08.380 interests of

01:49:08.880 the Russian

01:49:09.280 people?

01:49:10.380 It wasn't

01:49:10.960 even the

01:49:11.480 Russian people.

01:49:12.540 It was

01:49:13.340 against the

01:49:13.920 interests of

01:49:14.560 the Soviet

01:49:15.000 people.

01:49:16.040 There's a

01:49:16.480 difference.

01:49:17.740 At that time,

01:49:18.320 almost all

01:49:18.800 Soviet people

01:49:19.420 voted to keep

01:49:20.140 the Soviet

01:49:20.580 Union together.

01:49:21.900 Even the

01:49:22.660 Baltic states?

01:49:24.160 Yes.

01:49:25.040 The Baltic

01:49:25.900 states,

01:49:27.020 Ukraine,

01:49:28.000 everyone,

01:49:29.080 because that's

01:49:29.680 what they

01:49:30.020 thought.

01:49:31.620 But after

01:49:33.300 it happened

01:49:34.100 and some

01:49:34.680 years had

01:49:35.320 passed,

01:49:36.520 and certain

01:49:37.640 pro-Western

01:49:38.920 people had

01:49:39.720 been in

01:49:41.060 power in

01:49:41.880 all these

01:49:42.360 countries,

01:49:44.280 for example,

01:49:45.300 almost everyone

01:49:46.040 around Yeltsin

01:49:46.940 was implementing

01:49:48.020 American policies

01:49:49.220 in Russia.

01:49:50.020 That's why there

01:49:50.520 was a big war

01:49:51.200 between them

01:49:51.740 and our

01:49:52.680 ministry.

01:49:53.360 which Yeltsin

01:49:54.120 for some

01:49:54.920 reason instructed

01:49:56.020 to conduct

01:49:56.620 an imperial

01:49:57.600 pro-Soviet

01:49:58.540 policy.

01:49:59.420 And that's

01:49:59.700 why our

01:50:00.040 ministry was

01:50:00.560 ultimately

01:50:00.940 destroyed.

01:50:02.980 Who was

01:50:03.280 the war

01:50:03.580 between?

01:50:04.680 It was

01:50:05.140 with Yeltsin's

01:50:07.340 most powerful

01:50:08.320 associates,

01:50:10.020 the first

01:50:10.500 vice-premier,

01:50:12.360 the prime

01:50:12.880 minister,

01:50:14.080 who were

01:50:14.580 all extremely

01:50:15.620 pro-Western.

01:50:18.640 Yeltsin's

01:50:19.400 closest associate

01:50:20.580 at the time

01:50:21.520 was the

01:50:22.620 first vice-premier.

01:50:24.500 He did

01:50:24.980 everything

01:50:25.620 to get rid

01:50:28.120 of me

01:50:28.640 because I

01:50:29.680 was doing

01:50:30.380 important work.

01:50:32.900 He arranged

01:50:33.600 for my

01:50:34.180 minister to

01:50:35.020 be formally

01:50:35.760 promoted,

01:50:36.880 but he lost

01:50:37.840 any actual

01:50:38.620 power over

01:50:39.620 our mission.

01:50:41.180 As a result,

01:50:42.860 our vice-premier

01:50:44.060 from our team

01:50:45.120 was sent to

01:50:46.520 work in some

01:50:47.460 business.

01:50:48.020 As for

01:50:49.640 me,

01:50:50.420 he tried

01:50:51.080 to put

01:50:51.640 me in

01:50:52.180 jail.

01:50:53.140 That's

01:50:53.580 why I

01:50:53.980 left Russia.

01:50:56.040 Okay,

01:50:56.520 let's come

01:50:57.140 back to

01:50:57.660 that.

01:51:00.980 So,

01:51:01.820 you and

01:51:02.340 your boss

01:51:02.940 were appointed

01:51:03.780 to conduct

01:51:04.640 pro-imperial,

01:51:05.980 pro-Soviet

01:51:06.720 policy designed

01:51:07.840 to rebuild

01:51:08.600 the USSR.

01:51:10.100 Yes.

01:51:10.620 You tried

01:51:12.340 to do it,

01:51:13.160 but according

01:51:14.060 to you,

01:51:15.120 the pro-Western

01:51:16.240 people around

01:51:17.060 Yeltsin

01:51:17.500 tried to

01:51:18.060 stop you.

01:51:19.360 We fought

01:51:20.300 very hard

01:51:21.220 to be able

01:51:21.980 to do

01:51:22.440 anything at

01:51:23.220 all.

01:51:24.100 It was

01:51:24.540 really hard.

01:51:26.580 I remember

01:51:27.280 when Yeltsin,

01:51:30.060 it's confidential

01:51:30.860 information,

01:51:31.940 so I won't

01:51:32.480 go into

01:51:32.820 detail.

01:51:33.780 I understand

01:51:34.280 I could

01:51:34.600 probably talk

01:51:35.200 about it

01:51:35.580 now,

01:51:35.900 but it's

01:51:36.560 still not

01:51:36.980 a good

01:51:37.220 idea.

01:51:37.500 It was

01:51:38.340 a state

01:51:39.380 secret of

01:51:40.240 the highest

01:51:40.640 level.

01:51:41.560 Yeltsin

01:51:41.900 gave an

01:51:42.280 order.

01:51:43.040 As you

01:51:43.320 know,

01:51:43.880 the way

01:51:44.120 an order

01:51:44.420 is given

01:51:44.820 is like

01:51:45.200 this.

01:51:46.480 Such-and-such

01:51:47.420 lead ministry,

01:51:48.640 as well as

01:51:49.440 several other

01:51:50.380 secondary

01:51:50.880 ministries,

01:51:52.260 are hereby

01:51:52.980 ordered to

01:51:53.660 do such-and-such

01:51:55.040 thing by

01:51:55.520 such-and-such

01:51:56.220 date.

01:51:57.120 These people

01:51:57.580 are supposed

01:51:58.080 to have a

01:51:58.600 meeting.

01:51:59.480 The secondary

01:52:00.020 ministries

01:52:00.720 are supposed

01:52:02.560 to put

01:52:03.020 forward their

01:52:03.620 proposals.

01:52:04.620 The lead

01:52:05.300 ministry

01:52:06.840 is supposed

01:52:08.280 to combine

01:52:08.960 them into

01:52:09.520 a final

01:52:10.020 version,

01:52:11.360 resubmit it

01:52:12.060 to the

01:52:12.360 entire team,

01:52:13.880 obtain their

01:52:14.500 consent,

01:52:15.600 and then

01:52:16.000 report to

01:52:16.640 whoever gave

01:52:17.240 the order

01:52:17.700 for final

01:52:19.600 approval.

01:52:20.740 So Yeltsin

01:52:21.300 gave an

01:52:21.780 order where

01:52:22.860 our ministry

01:52:23.840 and I

01:52:25.000 personally

01:52:25.580 were the

01:52:26.740 leads.

01:52:28.040 None

01:52:28.560 of the

01:52:30.840 other

01:52:31.320 ministries,

01:52:32.900 the finance

01:52:34.540 ministry,

01:52:35.500 the economics

01:52:36.320 ministry,

01:52:37.820 basically

01:52:38.500 everyone

01:52:40.120 other than

01:52:41.700 the customs

01:52:42.380 and defense

01:52:43.340 ministries

01:52:44.140 which were

01:52:45.240 willing to

01:52:46.640 work with

01:52:47.080 us more

01:52:47.460 or less.

01:52:48.340 Everything

01:52:48.740 else was

01:52:49.400 totally

01:52:49.820 against

01:52:50.320 carrying out

01:52:51.640 the orders

01:52:52.100 of the

01:52:52.500 president.

01:52:53.460 In the

01:52:53.820 end, I

01:52:54.120 had to

01:52:54.420 say,

01:52:55.260 since we've

01:52:55.840 had no

01:52:56.240 proposals

01:52:56.720 from

01:52:57.660 others,

01:52:59.360 this is

01:52:59.840 what I'm

01:53:00.240 proposing.

01:53:01.620 I

01:53:01.920 suggested

01:53:03.040 a way

01:53:03.500 to solve

01:53:03.980 the problem.

01:53:05.320 Everyone

01:53:05.660 was up

01:53:06.180 in arms.

01:53:07.400 But I

01:53:08.240 sent

01:53:08.660 everything

01:53:09.120 to

01:53:09.400 Yeltsin.

01:53:11.240 And then

01:53:12.000 this guy,

01:53:13.900 the first

01:53:14.360 vice

01:53:14.680 premier,

01:53:15.740 had a

01:53:16.160 chat with

01:53:16.640 the

01:53:16.840 president

01:53:17.220 and they

01:53:18.540 agreed to

01:53:19.160 forget the

01:53:19.780 whole thing.

01:53:20.780 So you

01:53:21.340 were prevented

01:53:21.980 from doing

01:53:22.500 your job.

01:53:23.360 Okay.

01:53:24.100 So I

01:53:24.940 remember around

01:53:25.760 this time I

01:53:26.300 was already

01:53:26.720 at school

01:53:27.220 in England

01:53:27.700 calling my

01:53:28.740 mother and

01:53:29.440 noticing that

01:53:30.980 her voice

01:53:31.460 was very

01:53:31.900 strange.

01:53:33.300 Her

01:53:33.460 answers were

01:53:34.340 all

01:53:34.660 monosyllabic.

01:53:38.160 Later,

01:53:39.040 I learned

01:53:39.700 that I'd

01:53:40.100 called just

01:53:40.640 as law

01:53:41.060 enforcement

01:53:41.540 was searching

01:53:42.160 our apartment.

01:53:44.900 Why did

01:53:45.780 this happen?

01:53:49.160 I can

01:53:50.200 tell you.

01:53:52.680 One of

01:53:53.540 my subordinates

01:53:55.200 at the

01:53:55.760 International

01:53:56.460 Fund.

01:53:57.880 Where you

01:53:58.360 worked before

01:53:58.960 the ministry?

01:53:59.540 Yes,

01:54:00.940 immediately

01:54:01.880 before.

01:54:03.380 He was

01:54:03.960 my direct

01:54:04.780 subordinate.

01:54:06.260 He messed

01:54:07.260 up in his

01:54:08.060 business and

01:54:10.120 a director

01:54:11.120 of a

01:54:12.000 government

01:54:12.460 factory who

01:54:14.220 lent him

01:54:14.800 money now

01:54:15.940 realized he

01:54:16.800 wasn't going

01:54:17.440 to get it

01:54:18.040 back because

01:54:19.220 this guy

01:54:19.780 went bankrupt.

01:54:21.180 So this

01:54:21.920 director started

01:54:23.720 a huge

01:54:24.960 stink to

01:54:26.220 make sure

01:54:26.800 he wouldn't

01:54:28.000 be blamed

01:54:28.560 for it.

01:54:29.160 and reported

01:54:30.360 it to the

01:54:31.060 authorities.

01:54:33.740 And one

01:54:34.300 of the

01:54:34.840 people they

01:54:35.800 interrogated

01:54:37.180 claimed that

01:54:38.960 they'd sent

01:54:39.860 me money.

01:54:42.000 And

01:54:42.580 these people

01:54:44.440 decided this

01:54:45.820 was a good

01:54:46.760 reason

01:54:47.380 because I

01:54:49.100 had allegedly

01:54:50.060 received money

01:54:51.500 but didn't

01:54:52.480 pay tax on

01:54:53.500 it.

01:54:54.340 At this

01:54:54.780 point,

01:54:55.220 the first

01:54:55.580 vice-premier

01:54:56.260 gave the

01:54:56.680 order to

01:54:57.140 pursue it

01:54:57.660 at any

01:54:57.960 cost.

01:54:58.760 What's

01:54:59.000 more,

01:54:59.720 even if

01:55:00.140 we pretend

01:55:00.620 this actually

01:55:01.160 happened,

01:55:01.960 it would

01:55:02.300 have happened

01:55:02.720 in 1992

01:55:03.540 when it

01:55:04.440 wasn't illegal.

01:55:05.460 It became a

01:55:06.280 crime under

01:55:06.800 a law passed

01:55:07.520 in 1995.

01:55:09.020 So they

01:55:09.300 applied a

01:55:10.320 law passed

01:55:10.800 three years

01:55:11.400 after the

01:55:12.380 event had

01:55:12.900 supposedly

01:55:13.400 happened.

01:55:14.240 It was

01:55:14.580 totally

01:55:14.960 illegal.

01:55:15.340 And this

01:55:16.280 was your

01:55:16.800 punishment

01:55:17.420 for

01:55:17.780 implementing

01:55:18.500 policies

01:55:19.200 that

01:55:19.460 were

01:55:19.640 not

01:55:19.960 pro-Western?

01:55:21.480 Yes.

01:55:22.480 They did

01:55:23.600 it to

01:55:24.080 get rid

01:55:24.860 of me.

01:55:26.040 You were

01:55:26.560 in the

01:55:26.880 way?

01:55:27.660 Yes.

01:55:28.580 I was a

01:55:29.380 deputy

01:55:29.620 minister who

01:55:30.480 was genuinely

01:55:31.380 creative.

01:55:32.720 I was forced

01:55:33.440 to flee.

01:55:34.680 And the

01:55:34.920 moment I

01:55:35.300 did,

01:55:35.960 they forgot

01:55:36.720 all about

01:55:37.480 me.

01:55:38.700 They didn't

01:55:39.340 look for

01:55:39.860 me ever

01:55:40.420 again.

01:55:41.740 The

01:55:41.980 objective

01:55:42.520 was to

01:55:44.220 get rid

01:55:44.820 of me.

01:55:45.900 My

01:55:46.180 minister

01:55:46.740 became a

01:55:47.580 vice

01:55:47.860 premier.

01:55:48.980 He was

01:55:49.640 replaced

01:55:50.300 with a

01:55:50.820 complete

01:55:51.320 zero.

01:55:52.600 That is

01:55:53.120 another

01:55:53.540 horror story.

01:55:55.840 The

01:55:56.160 former

01:55:57.080 vice

01:55:57.680 premier

01:55:58.220 was sent

01:55:59.300 to work

01:56:00.160 in a

01:56:00.700 business

01:56:01.100 and the

01:56:01.880 ministry

01:56:02.460 was

01:56:02.960 destroyed.

01:56:05.800 So you

01:56:07.200 see what

01:56:07.720 happened to

01:56:08.320 you as

01:56:08.760 part of the

01:56:09.340 successful

01:56:09.900 effort to

01:56:10.660 destroy the

01:56:11.340 ministry you

01:56:11.960 worked in.

01:56:14.340 Yes,

01:56:15.360 which is what

01:56:16.380 happened.

01:56:17.540 That zero

01:56:18.060 left his role

01:56:18.820 as minister

01:56:19.480 within a

01:56:20.120 year and

01:56:21.340 was replaced

01:56:22.420 with some

01:56:22.960 random.

01:56:23.940 A year

01:56:24.340 later,

01:56:25.360 the ministry

01:56:25.880 was shut

01:56:26.420 down.

01:56:28.160 And the

01:56:29.600 moment we

01:56:30.360 were taken

01:56:30.900 apart, the

01:56:32.360 ministry stopped

01:56:33.300 carrying out

01:56:33.960 that order.

01:56:34.980 It stopped

01:56:35.600 pursuing a

01:56:36.500 pro-Russian

01:56:36.980 policy in the

01:56:38.700 former Soviet

01:56:39.380 Union.

01:56:39.800 A

01:56:41.700 reasonable

01:56:42.180 person might

01:56:43.120 ask, is

01:56:44.180 it possible

01:56:44.980 they simply

01:56:45.820 concluded that

01:56:46.940 you didn't

01:56:47.440 pay your

01:56:47.880 taxes and

01:56:48.580 pursued you

01:56:49.240 fairly under

01:56:49.940 the law?

01:56:52.320 Under

01:56:52.920 the law,

01:56:55.640 they could

01:56:56.240 have pursued

01:56:57.180 this as a

01:56:58.040 crime if it

01:56:58.800 had happened

01:56:59.540 after 1995.

01:57:02.240 First of

01:57:03.080 all, they

01:57:03.900 had no

01:57:04.340 evidence.

01:57:05.520 Secondly,

01:57:06.600 it's alleged

01:57:07.320 to have

01:57:07.820 happened at

01:57:08.420 a time

01:57:08.740 when it

01:57:09.120 wasn't a

01:57:09.560 crime.

01:57:10.220 Under the

01:57:10.680 law, it

01:57:11.740 became a

01:57:12.240 crime three

01:57:13.220 years after

01:57:13.800 it allegedly

01:57:14.400 happened.

01:57:15.660 Did anyone

01:57:16.560 tell you this

01:57:17.400 was because

01:57:17.960 of politics?

01:57:21.180 Yes, the

01:57:21.960 vice

01:57:22.300 premier's

01:57:23.540 assistance

01:57:24.280 told me.

01:57:25.720 Don't try to

01:57:26.440 speak to him

01:57:27.100 again.

01:57:28.040 He gave the

01:57:28.660 order.

01:57:30.920 So you

01:57:31.640 went to try

01:57:32.220 to see him?

01:57:33.720 Yes.

01:57:34.860 I wanted to

01:57:35.940 see him to

01:57:36.520 say, come

01:57:37.380 on, enough,

01:57:39.500 how can we

01:57:40.100 sort this

01:57:40.540 out?

01:57:41.900 But I

01:57:42.880 was told,

01:57:43.920 no, he

01:57:44.700 gave the

01:57:45.020 order and

01:57:45.600 that's it.

01:57:46.440 I also

01:57:46.820 talked to the

01:57:47.340 investigator of

01:57:48.080 the case.

01:57:48.940 I said, what

01:57:50.200 are you doing?

01:57:51.300 You're breaking

01:57:51.940 the law?

01:57:52.700 He said, we've

01:57:53.780 been given the

01:57:54.280 order to get

01:57:54.840 this to court

01:57:55.460 by any means

01:57:56.460 necessary.

01:57:58.200 Yes, we know

01:57:58.960 it's against the

01:57:59.720 law, the court

01:58:01.180 will decide.

01:58:02.320 I understood at

01:58:03.120 the time the

01:58:03.680 judge could be

01:58:04.760 given an order

01:58:05.360 just like the

01:58:05.980 investigators, to

01:58:07.320 put me in

01:58:07.860 jail by any

01:58:09.180 means necessary.

01:58:10.560 That's why I

01:58:11.300 got on a

01:58:11.700 plane.

01:58:13.120 Russia wasn't

01:58:14.040 a country with

01:58:14.960 blind justice

01:58:15.780 at that time,

01:58:16.800 let's say.

01:58:18.460 Justice was

01:58:19.340 extremely not

01:58:20.060 blind.

01:58:22.200 So Lady

01:58:23.340 Justice had

01:58:24.060 both her eyes

01:58:24.800 open.

01:58:26.940 To be

01:58:27.780 honest, the

01:58:29.800 idea of

01:58:30.640 blind justice

01:58:31.720 is as much

01:58:32.920 of a myth

01:58:33.880 as communism.

01:58:35.360 there's no

01:58:36.520 such thing.

01:58:38.000 A judge is

01:58:39.000 only human.

01:58:41.180 So he can be

01:58:42.440 influenced, he

01:58:43.640 has his own

01:58:44.380 interests, and

01:58:46.040 if he's clever

01:58:46.900 enough, he can

01:58:48.560 work out a way

01:58:49.640 of doing

01:58:50.860 everything to

01:58:52.480 his benefit.

01:58:54.160 So they had an

01:58:55.240 order to get the

01:58:56.180 case to court.

01:58:57.360 The court likely

01:58:58.240 would have had an

01:58:59.120 order to put me

01:59:00.020 in jail no matter

01:59:00.780 what.

01:59:01.580 And that's why

01:59:02.200 you decided to

01:59:03.120 leave?

01:59:03.420 Yes, I was

01:59:05.820 fired thankfully.

01:59:07.380 I tried to

01:59:08.440 resign three

01:59:09.140 times.

01:59:10.400 I said, let me

01:59:11.280 go handle this

01:59:12.340 and then

01:59:15.220 you can take

01:59:16.680 me back

01:59:17.180 if you want.

01:59:19.300 They rejected

01:59:19.940 my resignation

01:59:20.660 and then fired

01:59:22.140 me with pomp and

01:59:23.180 ceremony

01:59:23.660 with the

01:59:25.040 prime minister

01:59:25.680 saying,

01:59:27.140 we got rid of

01:59:28.320 the bastard,

01:59:29.480 the people can

01:59:30.300 now rejoice.

01:59:33.180 What was the

01:59:34.360 outcome of the

01:59:35.280 case in the

01:59:36.040 end?

01:59:38.100 It just sat

01:59:39.740 there for many

01:59:40.580 years with no

01:59:42.340 follow-up and

01:59:43.540 was eventually

01:59:44.640 annulled together

01:59:45.620 with lots of

01:59:46.540 other unlawful

01:59:48.140 cases like it.

01:59:50.320 On the

01:59:51.440 order of the

01:59:53.920 current president,

01:59:56.160 not Yeltsin,

01:59:57.420 on his

01:59:58.880 order,

01:59:59.560 they closed

02:00:00.260 all these

02:00:01.040 open unlawful

02:00:02.260 cases.

02:00:04.380 So the

02:00:05.340 case has

02:00:06.280 been closed

02:00:07.500 for many

02:00:08.460 years.

02:00:09.580 I am not

02:00:10.380 a suspect,

02:00:12.080 but it was

02:00:13.440 enough to

02:00:14.220 stop me

02:00:15.080 from doing

02:00:16.040 what I was

02:00:16.960 doing.

02:00:19.360 And that's

02:00:20.560 my story.

02:00:21.280 So we

02:00:24.100 will leave

02:00:24.460 the story

02:00:24.920 here and

02:00:25.380 we'll

02:00:25.580 continue in

02:00:26.140 our next

02:00:26.460 conversation.

02:00:29.600 In the

02:00:30.280 second part,

02:00:31.080 we focus on

02:00:31.680 history,

02:00:32.620 theories about

02:00:33.220 geopolitics and

02:00:34.640 tribal dynamics,

02:00:35.780 as well as

02:00:36.420 Lev Gumilov's

02:00:37.200 theory of

02:00:38.100 ethnic group

02:00:38.660 dynamics and

02:00:39.380 a lot more.

02:00:41.420 Broadway's

02:00:41.940 smash hit,

02:00:42.880 the Neil

02:00:43.240 Diamond musical,

02:00:44.320 A Beautiful

02:00:44.920 Noise,

02:00:45.780 is coming to

02:00:46.500 Toronto.

02:00:47.160 The true

02:00:47.560 story of a

02:00:48.220 kid from

02:00:48.640 Brooklyn destined

02:00:49.520 for something

02:00:50.120 more,

02:00:50.520 featuring all

02:00:51.220 the songs

02:00:51.680 you love,

02:00:52.440 including

02:00:52.800 America,

02:00:53.720 Forever in

02:00:54.180 Blue Jeans,

02:00:54.960 and Sweet

02:00:55.400 Caroline.

02:00:56.440 Like Jersey

02:00:57.020 Boys and

02:00:57.660 Beautiful,

02:00:58.240 the next

02:00:58.700 musical mega

02:00:59.580 hit is here,

02:01:00.500 the Neil

02:01:00.920 Diamond musical,

02:01:02.100 A Beautiful

02:01:02.660 Noise,

02:01:03.240 now through

02:01:03.720 June 7,

02:01:04.500 2026,

02:01:05.620 at the

02:01:05.960 Princess of

02:01:06.520 Wales Theatre.

02:01:07.460 Get tickets

02:01:07.940 at

02:01:08.160 murbush.com.

TRIGGERnometry - February 22, 2025

Conversations with My Father - USSR, Communism and Modern Russia

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript