TRIGGERnometry - October 07, 2026


Everything You Know About Napoleon Is Wrong – Historian Andrew Roberts

Hosted by
Mentioned
Never Go Full Tucker - Konstantin Kisin

Episode Stats


Length

2 hours and 1 minute

Words per minute

147.32

Word count

17,925

Sentence count

1,093


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 He was very keen for it to return to its former glory.
00:00:06.340 Make France great again.
00:00:07.220 Make France great again, exactly that.
00:00:10.640 Napoleon then imposes a peace in which he essentially splits up Europe between Russia and France.
00:00:19.000 How does it begin to unravel from there?
00:00:21.120 When the Russians in 1811 decided that they were going to resume trade with Britain,
00:00:27.140 He invaded Russia to try and force them back into the continental system.
00:00:30.960 Of the 615,000 that go into Russia, only 93,000 come back.
00:00:37.700 So he gets exiled now, huh?
00:00:39.220 He was there 10 months, and he escaped.
00:00:42.660 He lands with only 300 men.
00:00:44.480 If you add the 150,000 Austrians and the 350 Russians,
00:00:48.780 you've got half a million men who are marching.
00:00:51.740 So even if Napoleon had won Waterloo, he'd have found it impossible to enter Paris.
00:00:56.700 Do you have too many friends? Then head over to our merch store where you'll be able to buy
00:01:03.940 hoodies, t-shirts, caps, stickers, posters, and of course, the world famous Trigonometry mug.
00:01:10.180 Grab a few of those and all your woke friends are guaranteed to cancel you right away.
00:01:15.420 Go to shop.triggerpod.co.uk. That's shop.triggerpod.co.uk and become part of the show.
00:01:24.160 Lord Andrew Roberts, welcome back to Trigonometry.
00:01:26.280 Thank you so much, Konstantin. It's great to be back.
00:01:28.880 What a pleasure it is for Francis and I to have you back.
00:01:31.460 I was saying before we started, our first interview, which was about Winston Churchill,
00:01:35.500 to me, it's a definitive interview about the great man.
00:01:39.140 Still people watching it in their tens of thousands.
00:01:42.000 I know it had a huge impact on book sales for you, for Walking With Destiny.
00:01:47.800 And it's a pleasure to have you back to talk about another great man,
00:01:51.080 but sort of slightly in inverted commas, because obviously, you know,
00:01:54.020 He was a bit of an enemy of this country, a bit.
00:01:56.640 Napoleon and his marshals, which your latest book is about.
00:02:01.040 So let's get straight into it.
00:02:02.700 Let's do that.
00:02:03.760 Napoleon, who was he?
00:02:05.660 Where did he come from his early life?
00:02:07.680 Perhaps let's start with that.
00:02:09.060 He was born in Corsica in 1769.
00:02:12.620 He was an aristocrat, but really Corsica didn't have an aristocracy.
00:02:17.540 So they didn't have any money, but they had a grand background.
00:02:21.340 and they had a sense of themselves as aristocrats.
00:02:27.180 His father was a lawyer.
00:02:28.700 He spent a lot of time in his father's extensive library
00:02:31.840 and took on the ideas of the Enlightenment.
00:02:35.080 He read Voltaire and Diderot and so on.
00:02:37.740 And he joined the army quite early
00:02:39.960 because they didn't have enough money to send him to the grand schools.
00:02:44.460 But if you were an aristocrat,
00:02:46.100 you could get free education at military academies.
00:02:48.400 And so he went to two military academies
00:02:50.660 and winded up being an artillery officer in 1794.
00:02:57.040 And tell us about France in this period of time.
00:03:00.580 This is before the French Revolution,
00:03:02.560 which I imagine therefore necessarily means
00:03:04.760 there's quite a turbulent time.
00:03:06.860 There are lots of things going on,
00:03:08.560 various social movements going on.
00:03:10.220 What is the environment in which he is sort of culturing
00:03:13.920 and growing into a man?
00:03:16.740 He was... Actually, he very much agrees with that.
00:03:20.660 concepts. He said that if you show somebody what they were like at 20, what the world was
00:03:28.640 going on there and happening in the world when you're 20, you can understand the whole of the
00:03:33.380 rest of the man's life. And there's a lot to that, I think. And when he was 20, of course,
00:03:38.820 as you mentioned, the French Revolution broke out. And so he was still a cadet at that stage,
00:03:44.120 an army cadet, but he was very ambitious. He was extremely well-read because of that time he spent
00:03:51.260 in the library. He was very hardworking. And he suddenly saw an opportunity for himself and for
00:03:59.600 all the other army officers who weren't going to be guillotined, essentially, of which hundreds
00:04:05.260 were, indeed thousands. And so there was going to be an opportunity for driven young men like him to
00:04:12.380 get into the very top eshnals of the army early, as it were. And he took huge advantage of that.
00:04:19.900 And he was a general by the time. He was 24.
00:04:23.100 Wow. So it's very much that Game of Thrones called Chaos as a Ladder.
00:04:27.280 Yes, absolutely.
00:04:28.840 Interesting. And did his ambition, you know, obviously the level of ambition he had is,
00:04:35.180 you know, unusual to say the least. But was it partly driven by this,
00:04:40.000 I am an ability, but I am impoverished situation?
00:04:43.240 Or was it just something that, you know,
00:04:44.720 some people are just born like that?
00:04:46.380 And a sense of his own capacity, his abilities.
00:04:50.980 He had a wonderful, I mean, he had a very high opinion of himself,
00:04:54.760 but he was tremendously talented.
00:04:56.620 He was a hardworking, as I say, intelligent man
00:04:59.320 who felt that he could do really well
00:05:02.760 and get absolutely to the top.
00:05:04.820 And in the initial fighting that took place in Toulon,
00:05:09.200 because the Royalists and the British and various other navies
00:05:15.620 managed to take the centrally most important Mediterranean port,
00:05:22.860 naval port of Toulon, and the French needed to get it back.
00:05:27.820 The revolutionaries needed to get it back,
00:05:29.740 and Napoleon was extremely successful with that in 1793,
00:05:33.780 and that's how he became a general in 1794.
00:05:36.180 Mm. And just painting the broader picture a little bit, Andrew, obviously, in the modern
00:05:42.960 world, we have this meme about France being, you know, cheese-eating surrender monkeys. But of
00:05:46.700 course, throughout history, it's actually one of the great powers, military powers in Europe,
00:05:52.100 and in fact, the world. What was the military position of France at this time that Napoleon
00:05:57.520 is coming through? Weak. It had lost the Seven Years' War in 1763. So six years before he was
00:06:05.300 born, France had lost its primacy in Europe, which as you're right in saying, absolutely over
00:06:12.000 the previous hundred years, it had been the great military power of Europe. Louis XIV brought it up
00:06:18.800 to that stage. But by the time he was growing up, it had been humiliated in this war on four
00:06:27.060 continents. So he was very keen for it to return to its former glory. Make France great again.
00:06:35.140 And made France great again, exactly that. And he hoped that he would be part of that.
00:06:41.660 Just to complicate that, though, of course, he was also a Corsican nationalist. And the Corsicans,
00:06:47.780 for the early part of his life, wanted independence from France. So he was torn emotionally and
00:06:53.760 intellectually, and certainly politically, between his father's dream of an independent Corsica
00:07:00.180 and his own dream of a very powerful France.
00:07:03.940 Because what's really interesting about Napoleon is that he had this meteoric rise.
00:07:09.780 And partly, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong,
00:07:12.520 it's the fact that he proved himself indispensable to the Republic through his talents.
00:07:17.320 He did, and also through his ruthlessness.
00:07:19.420 And this, Francis, is a tremendously important aspect because in October 1795,
00:07:25.260 he was appointed by the government to crush a rebellion in Paris, a royalist uprising in Paris,
00:07:32.540 which he did using what Thomas Carlyle later called a whiff of grapeshot. He got a large
00:07:40.780 number of cannon, 40 plus cannon, from outside Paris. This was actually done by someone called
00:07:46.640 Joachim Murat, who was to become tremendously important as one of his leading marshals.
00:07:51.080 And they used these cannons to kill about 300 Frenchmen as they crossed the bridges over the Seine and tried to take over the central part of the Tuileries Palace, which is where the government was at the time.
00:08:06.300 He just cut them down. He used grapeshot, lots of very small little musket balls inside a canvas bag that explodes as soon as it leaves the cannon's mouth and so kills the maximum number of people.
00:08:21.720 And what's interesting about that is that we see, I think, the rise of Napoleon where he becomes more and more indispensable, which means that he becomes more and more powerful, doesn't he?
00:08:33.360 That's right. And actually, one of the people who's in the government at the time says that there's a statement he makes to a cabinet meetings where he says, as soon as a general considers himself to be indispensable, that's the time we must dispense of him.
00:08:48.000 And they don't. They allow him, after the whiff of grapeshot, to go and fight in Italy.
00:08:55.720 They don't give him enough troops or money or ammunition or supplies or anything.
00:09:01.640 But nonetheless, he manages, through a series of brilliant victories at the beginning of the Italian campaign,
00:09:08.120 to win that campaign against the Austrians in northern Italy.
00:09:12.720 And I want to delve into what made him so special as a general, because he was someone who was truly great because he was an innovator, tactically and strategically.
00:09:22.880 So let's explore that. What was it about tactics and the strategies that he used that made him so brilliant?
00:09:30.140 He ripped up the rulebook completely. There were actual rulebooks that were written about what armies needed to do. And he just took no notice of them, or he took on ideas of the new younger thinkers who were writing revolutionary radical new ideas.
00:09:48.840 The first is you don't stick your army outside cities and besiege cities.
00:09:55.780 You go round the cities, leaving enough men to make sure that the people in the city don't rally out.
00:10:01.120 But nonetheless, you keep moving. Speed and manoeuvre is vital.
00:10:06.280 You don't wait for your baggage train. You live off the land.
00:10:09.340 So you basically just take whatever's there and push on.
00:10:13.620 You employ something called the core system, which means breaking up your divisions into armies, sort of mini-armies essentially, which can hold the enemy in place while your other cores go around the outside and envelop them, in some cases in the Italian campaign, double envelopment.
00:10:34.800 So you have this new form of warfare. He was very lucky as well. He was in his mid-20s
00:10:41.440 and some of these Austrian generals were in their 70s and 80s. So he was much more
00:10:48.800 energetic then. He also had a superb eye for his lieutenants. He did choose people who were very
00:10:58.640 good, very trustworthy, very brave and so on. And so you all have all of these things come together
00:11:04.400 and he used to plunder cities and therefore pay his men, who a lot of them after the French
00:11:11.760 Revolution hadn't been paid for years. And that obviously made him popular and brought the morale
00:11:17.120 of the army up. And yeah, there were sort of 10 or so, I list them in the book, new aspects of
00:11:26.240 soldiering, which he brought to bear. And let's explore that. Which ones do you think were the
00:11:31.620 most important, the most innovative, and also the ones that are the most impactful?
00:11:37.100 I think the speed, this whole idea of speed. He also had an idea that, which is later written
00:11:45.540 about by Carl von Clausewitz, who watched Napoleon very carefully. And he calls it the
00:11:52.340 strategy of the central manoeuvre, which means that if you have two enemies, and he very often
00:12:01.220 did in the Italian campaign, he had Piedmont and Austria, what you do is you strike at the hinge
00:12:07.620 between the two and push the stronger one off, defeat the less strong one, and then you turn
00:12:17.920 on to the other ones. So it's a thing that you see many times. The interesting thing actually
00:12:25.100 is that the Allies, the coalition forces against France, are very, very slow at working out what
00:12:31.540 Napoleon's manoeuvres are. They don't really come up to understand the strategy of the central
00:12:38.100 manoeuvre until 1813. They don't adopt the core system until 1812. They still indulge in very long
00:12:47.880 costly sieges right the way up through to 1813, 1814. So actually, they take a decade virtually
00:12:56.480 more to work out what Napoleon's doing.
00:12:59.240 Andrew, and where does this young man get both the confidence and the knowledge to be able to,
00:13:09.100 as you say, rip up the rulebook?
00:13:11.300 study. He spends an enormous amount of time, both at home, of course, but also in his two
00:13:19.140 military academies, discussing, debating, learning, reading every book on strategy and so on,
00:13:28.420 and working out for himself what he thinks is going to work and what isn't. So he's tremendously
00:13:33.620 professional. And all of the people who commanded him in these various academies
00:13:39.460 write about how good he is basically at all of this. He's a deep thinker and he works out also
00:13:47.320 just the practical side of how to put these intellectual theories into practice on the
00:13:52.720 battlefield. Wow, that's really interesting. And just before we move on with the chronological side
00:13:57.220 of things, if we stick with the revolution aspect of it, is he ideological? Does he have a view of
00:14:04.340 how society domestically ought to be structured? Does he think that getting rid of the monarchy
00:14:10.540 is the right thing? Not because it gives him a chance to then become the ultimate leader,
00:14:15.980 but for other reasons. Does he have a vision of how society ought to be?
00:14:20.780 Yes. In 1793, he and his family that summer are expelled from Corsica because he's a Jacobin,
00:14:31.660 he's a supporter of the French Revolution, and they are chucked out off the island
00:14:35.920 because the island is going down the independence route. Not for very long because independence is
00:14:42.940 crushed. But nonetheless, he is an ideological supporter of Maximilien de Robespierre. He
00:14:49.800 supports the guillotining of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. He is a really sort of harsh,
00:14:57.900 radical revolutionary, until the fall of Robespierre on the 28th of July 1794, when he then
00:15:05.500 is arrested down in the south of France, put in jail for 10 days, is in fear of his life because
00:15:11.520 he doesn't know whether or not the anti-revolutionaries are going to execute him as well as the 30 or
00:15:18.200 so people that they executed back in Paris. And there he seems to have a major conversion where
00:15:25.400 he recognises that the dreams of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and the other encyclopaedists and so on
00:15:33.600 actually are, they're just utopian ideals
00:15:39.080 and not something that's going to actually work on the ground.
00:15:42.460 And he turns against that kind of politics,
00:15:45.480 still embracing the Republic
00:15:47.040 and willing, of course, a year later
00:15:50.380 to cut down the enemies of the Republic
00:15:52.460 in the streets of Paris with 300 dead.
00:15:55.360 But he's no longer that kind of ideologue.
00:15:58.680 Wow. So in the modern parlance,
00:16:00.120 he sort of nearly gets cancelled
00:16:01.340 and realizes the woke one went a bit far.
00:16:04.960 We say he sees the light.
00:16:06.420 Yes.
00:16:07.220 That's, I mean, that's an extraordinary thing
00:16:09.740 for somebody to change their views to that extent.
00:16:12.720 Well, he's still only in his mid-twenties.
00:16:14.560 And I think that's a time when you can be quite fluid
00:16:17.140 in your ideological convictions.
00:16:19.320 That's really interesting.
00:16:20.820 And so having gone through the French Revolution
00:16:24.540 as a keen supporter,
00:16:25.940 then having this moment when he sees
00:16:28.080 that maybe the extremism was less appropriate
00:16:31.060 than he thought. What is left at that point in terms of how he sees the world?
00:16:37.140 A fierce French nationalism is there. A belief that the royals, the Bourbons, should not be
00:16:46.140 allowed to come back. A very strong sense of meritocracy. And this is a very important aspect
00:16:53.500 of the martial art when we come on to that by 1804. He actually does believe, even though he's
00:17:00.000 an aristocrat himself, of course, that the best men must be allowed to rise, especially in the
00:17:05.080 army. That talent must be allowed to be harnessed for the good of the country. And that means that
00:17:11.540 all of the assumptions made for the last thousand years in France, whereby you could not rise above
00:17:18.220 the rank and status of your grandfather and father, has to be done away with. So that's arguably one
00:17:24.820 of the most revolutionary ideas. In the modern world, until quite recently, we thought meritocracy
00:17:30.880 was a sort of self-evident, obvious, best way to do things. But actually, in that moment,
00:17:37.200 this is a revolutionary way of looking at it. And is that part of the bedrock of his success
00:17:43.140 as a commander and general and ultimately leader of France?
00:17:47.180 Undoubtedly, because when it comes to choosing his marshal, so his most important
00:17:52.800 lieutenants, what he's trying to do, as well as obviously get good soldiers,
00:17:57.500 is to recreate a form of aristocracy in France that has got nothing to do with birth.
00:18:04.980 And it's all to do with talent, especially military talent, and governing talent as well.
00:18:10.960 Several of these marshals were very fine administrators. But what he's trying to do,
00:18:16.280 therefore, is to unleash the incredible energies of all Frenchmen who suddenly learn that they can
00:18:25.520 get to the top by their talents rather than just have to spend their entire time staying where
00:18:31.520 they are. So it's a fantastic, there's a quotation that was said about him that he allowed the French
00:18:40.820 army to understand that inside every soldier's knapsack is the baton of a marshal of France.
00:18:48.860 And that was the case. Of the 26 marshals, about half of them were the sons of innkeepers and
00:18:55.620 barrel coopers and peasants and domestic servants and people who had never, whose children had never
00:19:01.220 been able to get to the top of society before. Like most people, I want more energy, better focus,
00:19:08.140 and to still be sharp and strong years from now.
00:19:10.780 But every time I've gone in for my annual checkup, it's the same thing.
00:19:14.340 Wait weeks to get an appointment, sit in a waiting room,
00:19:17.100 and then you're in and out in 10 minutes.
00:19:18.940 Everything looks fine, they say.
00:19:20.320 Drink more water, sleep a bit more.
00:19:22.200 No real insight, no plan, just vibes.
00:19:24.780 That's why every time I visit the US, I use Superpower.
00:19:28.280 Members get 150 plus biomarkers tested every year across two separate tests.
00:19:33.900 One to set your baseline and one later to see what's actually changed.
00:19:37.580 That's a different category information to what you get standing in a doctor's office once a year.
00:19:42.640 It covers heart, liver, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamins, and mineral levels,
00:19:48.000 gut health, and even environmental toxins.
00:19:50.820 Superpower turns all of that into a personalized health plan
00:19:53.820 rather than a printout you never look at again.
00:19:56.500 Members using it are catching early risk factors for disease
00:19:59.420 that a standard checkup would have missed entirely.
00:20:02.120 Take control of your health with Superpower.
00:20:04.060 For a limited time, our listeners and viewers get $50 off their membership at superpower.com slash trigonometry.
00:20:10.900 That's superpower.com slash trigonometry for 50 bucks off your superpower membership.
00:20:15.960 And after you sign up, they'll ask you, have you heard about superpower?
00:20:19.240 Tell them Trigonometry sent you to support the show.
00:20:22.560 And that was one of the things that was truly revolutionary about Napoleon is the relationship he had,
00:20:29.360 not only with his marshals, but with his men on the ground.
00:20:31.820 They truly loved and adored him, didn't they?
00:20:34.060 They certainly did. It's the marshals who actually don't. I'm sure we'll come on to that later on.
00:20:42.220 Oh yes, the way in which he was able to inspire his men was partly through his charisma, partly
00:20:49.980 through his writing ability. He would write his orders of the day, proclamations, bulletins and
00:20:54.780 so on, which would really get the men excited. There's the moment before the back of the pyramids
00:21:00.940 when he says, 40 centuries look down on you. So you are being watched by 4,000 years of history
00:21:08.060 and how you fight today, essentially, is more important than just you. It's your taking part
00:21:15.740 in history. And that was a part of what he said was about trying to electrify the soul.
00:21:22.300 If you can electrify the soul of your men, you can get them to do things that otherwise
00:21:28.620 normal soldiers wouldn't necessarily do.
00:21:31.040 And that was obviously because at that time,
00:21:33.360 well, armies have always been hierarchical,
00:21:36.120 but there was this attitude at the time
00:21:38.280 that the men were basically peasants
00:21:39.860 and then you had the people at the top
00:21:41.420 and they were the brains and they were in charge
00:21:43.420 and there was this huge disconnect.
00:21:46.160 But with Napoleon, you read these stories about how
00:21:49.080 if a man was fighting bravely on the front line,
00:21:51.880 he would ride up to them and take off his legion d'honneur
00:21:54.460 and put it round his neck.
00:21:55.880 out. I mean, listening to that hundreds of years on, it doesn't fail to be moving.
00:22:01.860 And of course, if you did get the LΓ©gion d'Honneur because of your bravery, that also,
00:22:07.200 as well as making you tremendously respected by your fellow soldiers, you also got a pension.
00:22:13.340 And so you didn't have to worry about working after you left the army for the rest of your life.
00:22:18.040 So there was a real sort of added practical side as well as the glory. But overall, yeah,
00:22:25.660 you're right. I mean, this lust for glory is something which does grip the French army.
00:22:32.640 And it becomes a problem with the Marshals later on because it turns into such an obsessive lust
00:22:39.920 for glory that they start starting battles early in order to grab glory, you know, before they're
00:22:45.520 actually supposed to be attacking. And that obviously isn't a good thing. But overall,
00:22:51.220 that esprit de corps, the allon that you have in the French ranks, that does come very much from
00:22:58.540 a deliberate policy of Napoleon's to adopt meritocracy. So let's go back to the story.
00:23:05.800 So this is the, well, it wasn't Italy at the time, but let's just call it the Italian campaign.
00:23:10.540 Yeah. I mean, stunning success. Victory after victory after victory after victory.
00:23:16.340 comes home to a hero's welcome.
00:23:20.040 So it starts to go a little bit wrong afterwards
00:23:23.840 with the Egyptian campaign.
00:23:25.240 What happens in the interim?
00:23:26.960 Well, in the interim, he makes a plan to invade England.
00:23:32.620 And actually, they go quite far with this.
00:23:37.340 Andrew, I'm sorry to interrupt.
00:23:38.240 Just for my clarity, when you say he makes a plan,
00:23:41.500 is he the leader of France already?
00:23:42.920 No, no, no.
00:23:43.480 No, absolutely not.
00:23:44.120 He is the successful general who's returned from Italy, garlanded with honours.
00:23:49.760 But he has no, other than his military rank, he has no political power.
00:23:54.260 So how is he making this planning?
00:23:56.380 Because the Ministry of War want to know what to do with him next.
00:24:00.280 They recognise...
00:24:01.120 They know if he stays around, he's going to cause problems.
00:24:05.540 Yes, they want to get him out of the country.
00:24:08.320 Wow.
00:24:08.520 Either on an expedition to England or, as Francis mentioned, going off to Egypt, which will very comprehensively take him out of Europe, of course.
00:24:20.680 And when they realise that they're not ready to try and cross the Channel
00:24:29.300 because, of course, the Royal Navy is the strongest in the world
00:24:33.620 and able to protect England, they then think seriously about Egypt.
00:24:40.580 And so he moves into Egypt and reading about his story,
00:24:47.160 it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong,
00:24:49.620 But it seems the most tenuous of reasons, doesn't it, to actually go into Egypt?
00:24:54.860 There are the public reasons that they're trying to cut off British trade in the Mediterranean,
00:25:00.800 which is perfectly true.
00:25:02.060 They did want to sort of stop the increase in British influence in the Near East.
00:25:07.840 And then there is his private reasons that he only vouchsays to a few friends,
00:25:14.040 including some of the marshals, when he talks about how he wants to wear a turban,
00:25:21.400 hold the Qur'an as he enters Delhi on an elephant. Delhi's 1,800 miles away.
00:25:30.600 It's all sort of pretty nutty stuff, frankly. But in the short term, yes, he wants to take Cairo
00:25:37.800 and makes sure that that becomes part of the French Empire and denies trade routes.
00:25:45.180 But his secret plan is to become a new Alexander the Great.
00:25:49.080 But it also comes with a fascination of Egyptology, doesn't it?
00:25:53.360 Yes.
00:25:53.960 And he's a lover of ancient history.
00:25:56.380 Yes.
00:25:56.740 So let's talk about that, and the Rosetta Stone in particular.
00:25:59.580 The Rosetta Stone. He takes with him on this big expedition, 30,000 men in over 300 ships. He takes 167 intellectuals, what were called savants. And the savants were going to map out Egypt.
00:26:19.460 They were going to look at all of the ancient pyramids and the Philae, and they were going to visit all of the great places, Memphis and so on, and actually make a 21 volume, what's called The Description of Egypt, which is published years later, which is still one of the great cultural and intellectual achievements of the Western world, effectively.
00:26:49.460 It's an extraordinary thing.
00:26:52.420 The volumes now cost half a million pounds each,
00:26:55.380 so we'll all have to save up to own them.
00:26:59.720 But they're beautiful, utterly beautiful.
00:27:02.240 And page after page, the amount of work that's gone into these
00:27:05.640 as they note down all the hieroglyphics,
00:27:08.780 and essentially they start modern Egyptology.
00:27:14.120 Now that's not, of course, one of the primary reasons
00:27:16.660 for him to have done this.
00:27:17.860 That was all about strategy and politics and so on.
00:27:22.600 But it's an amazing by-product.
00:27:25.380 And it also shows an aspect of Napoleon, which surprised some of his marshals.
00:27:29.960 Because, you know, up until now, conquering was conquering.
00:27:33.240 It wasn't sitting down and making incredibly detailed illustrations of everywhere that you've seen.
00:27:41.140 And the Egyptian campaign starts off very successfully, doesn't it?
00:27:46.960 And then with Alexandria. So let's talk about that. It starts up successfully and then it starts to go awry the further it goes.
00:27:55.660 Yes. But the people in France don't know this. This is the key thing.
00:28:00.500 You know, there's a huge difference between what's happening on the ground and propaganda back home.
00:28:05.680 So he starts off, as you say, he lands without loss. He marches to Cairo and takes Cairo after the Battle of the Pyramids, which is a huge victory.
00:28:19.740 virtually no French killed thousands of Mamelukes who were the people who ruled
00:28:26.640 Egypt at the time, nominally in the name of the Turkish Sultan, but actually they were a sort of
00:28:33.760 warlord race that dominated Egypt for hundreds of years. Well, they were former warrior slaves
00:28:39.440 weren't they? Yes, exactly that, they were. But they built themselves up into this warrior caste,
00:28:45.760 which for hundreds of years ruled over Egypt. So for the ordinary Egyptian, it was basically a
00:28:52.760 choice between the French and the Mamelukes, and they considered both of them to be foreigners.
00:28:58.040 What you get after the fall of Cairo is this terrible news which comes, which is that Admiral
00:29:07.500 Nelson has sailed his British fleet into Abilkir, which is where the French fleet was
00:29:14.100 was at anchor. And in a totally brilliant manoeuvre where he managed to get ships
00:29:21.560 between the coastline and where the French were moored, he essentially sank the French fleet.
00:29:29.560 So there was no way home. And this, as you can imagine, was devastating news as far as the
00:29:35.140 morale of the French army was concerned. It didn't hold Napoleon back. He decided then to invade
00:29:42.880 Syria, or at least what is in modern day Israel and Syria. And so he gets all the way up to Acre,
00:29:51.120 he goes through Gaza and gets up past Haifa to put Acre under siege and then can't take Acre,
00:30:04.400 because it's defended as well as by the Turks,
00:30:08.940 also by the British and some French royalists as well.
00:30:14.200 And so I want to just go back to the naval battle with Horatio Nelson,
00:30:20.940 because this might be very simplistic, and correct me if I'm wrong,
00:30:25.460 which I'm sure that I might be, but there is this image of Napoleon
00:30:28.420 that he was a brilliant land general, strategist, military expert.
00:30:34.880 But when it came to the naval aspect of warfare, he was deficient.
00:30:38.600 Yes, I think that's very fair.
00:30:40.880 And it's extraordinary, really, because it's not as though he wasn't...
00:30:45.740 He didn't understand the sea. He came from an island.
00:30:50.360 He was later, obviously, exiled to another island and died on another island.
00:30:54.200 You know, he wasn't just a landlubber, but he never really, as a soldier, he never really looked into what admirals and sailors were doing.
00:31:05.700 He often sent his admirals letters asking them to do things that were actually just technically impossible.
00:31:12.140 It was said that he didn't know the difference between Wynwood and Leawood, which obviously is going to be a major problem if you want to.
00:31:19.080 So it is a huge lacuna in his knowledge and understanding, everything to do with the naval aspect.
00:31:28.320 Now, whether he could have stopped Admiral Nelson, who obviously was a great genius, from sinking his fleet anyway.
00:31:35.500 He was in Cairo at the time, hundreds of miles away.
00:31:37.680 But his Admiral, Admiral Brees, ought to have been able to have moored his ships in a way that was more intelligent and wouldn't allow Nelson to do what he did.
00:31:50.320 But don't you find it fascinating, Andrew, that this is a man who was intellectually curious, fascinated by all aspects of history, military strategy.
00:32:00.800 Yet when it comes to something as essential as naval warfare, particularly when your main enemies are the Brits, you're going to be incurious at best?
00:32:12.060 Yes, and especially as, of course, as I mentioned earlier, the thing that drove him was the desire to avenge the Seven Years' War. And the Seven Years' War was, to quite a large degree, a naval war. I mean, obviously, yes, you do have big battles like Minden and so on in Central Europe.
00:32:29.800 But otherwise, what's going on all around the world in the West Indies and the East Indies and the Mediterranean and so on, these are naval battles.
00:32:39.020 And so, yes, as I say, it's a big lacuna in his understanding.
00:32:43.900 Then again, to be fair to him, I mean, I don't know if I'm right about this, but I imagine people in history who are able to be geniuses at land warfare and naval warfare in one human being are quite unusual.
00:32:57.120 Very, very. I mean, one can think of a few from the ancient world, but otherwise, yes. I mean,
00:33:03.140 the two do bifurcate, don't they, as areas of expertise, certainly by the time of the 18th century.
00:33:11.040 Well, that's what I mean. The more specialized these fields become, the more difficult it is
00:33:15.580 for one person to know everything about both. So the campaign stalls, the Egyptian campaign
00:33:22.420 in store as well. He's not Egyptian anymore. He's out in Syria. What happens from there?
00:33:27.760 Well, he comes back into Cairo and brings back his army, having not been able to capture Acre,
00:33:37.000 and decides that he is going to go back to France. And there's some debate amongst historians about
00:33:45.320 whether or not he intends to overthrow the government of France and set himself up as
00:33:51.040 First Consul. The government in France then known as the Directory was corrupt, inefficient and
00:33:59.760 unpopular. There was huge inflation and the war hadn't been going well back in Europe. So he,
00:34:09.280 I believe, did have plans to return and overthrow the government, especially if he found enough
00:34:16.800 supporters in Paris, which he certainly did do. So he returns. How does he return? He's got no
00:34:25.680 ships. He manages to get on board a frigate, which comes after the Battle of... What happens
00:34:31.740 to his men? His men all stay back in Egypt to tremendous fury and resentment from them.
00:34:39.300 I'd imagine. But their resentment isn't communicated back to France because you can't
00:34:49.080 get the British in control of the Mediterranean, essentially. And apart from this ship that does
00:34:55.260 manage the mural, does manage to get back to first Corsica and then to the south of France,
00:35:05.060 you really there are no communications and this works hugely to his advantage of course
00:35:10.260 because the people of france have heard about the victories and not about the defeats
00:35:16.440 rich first sponsored this show nearly six years ago i've still got one of their wallets in my
00:35:23.120 pocket right now and i promise nobody told me to say that rich makes wallets power banks luggage
00:35:28.700 the stuff that actually ends up in your pocket or your bag every single day not sitting in a drawer
00:35:34.740 somewhere. This year, Ridge is running their sweepstakes for the sick time, and they've gone
00:35:39.940 bigger than ever. It's live now, running until the 8th of September, and Tony Hawk is fronting it,
00:35:46.580 so you know they've taken this seriously. Two winners are going to get to choose between a
00:35:51.820 Lamborghini Huracan Starato, a Hennessy Velociraptor, a custom-built Ford Bronco wrapped in
00:35:58.620 kevlar armor or a hundred thousand dollars in cash the lambo alone is one of only 1500 in existence
00:36:05.100 and naturally aspirated v10 with 610 horsepower built to go off-road which sounds like a
00:36:11.220 contradiction until you see it the velociraptor is a twin turbo with 558 horsepower basically an
00:36:18.440 american muscle car that's been let loose on a truck take your pick you can enter completely
00:36:24.240 free at Ridge.com, no purchase necessary. But if you're already planning on picking up a wallet or
00:36:30.300 a power bank, every order during the sweepstakes earns you extra entries. So there's genuinely no
00:36:37.100 reason not to. Head to Ridge.com and use the code Trigonometry at checkout for 10% of your first
00:36:43.840 order. And a shot at the biggest giveaway Ridge has ever run. A Lamborghini Huracan Starato,
00:36:49.700 a Hennessy Velociraptor, a Ford Bronco, or $100,000 in cash.
00:36:54.680 Every dollar you spend gets you more entries,
00:36:57.680 but you don't need to spend anything to enter.
00:37:00.560 That's ridge.com code trigonometry.
00:37:04.200 After you check out, they'll ask you where you heard about them.
00:37:07.880 Tell them we sent you.
00:37:09.900 I think this is a very important point now to talk about the idea of myth-making.
00:37:15.380 Yeah.
00:37:15.660 Which Napoleon was, again, a genius at.
00:37:18.920 He was almost Trumpian in the way that he could have a terrible outcome in Egypt, yet portray it as this huge success.
00:37:30.200 Some say the greatest victory. I wish I could do the accent.
00:37:34.380 Yes, that's right. And also, he didn't just manipulate the news, although he was very good at that.
00:37:41.360 He was the first person, for example, to bring along a printing press on his campaigns with him so that he would be able to put his point of view out to the army, but he knew that it would get wider traction.
00:37:57.340 But also he had painters like David who would paint wonderful portraits. The most famous one, of course, is him crossing the Alps on his horse. He, in fact, crossed the Alps on foot and sometimes on a donkey.
00:38:16.600 But you look at that painting where he's on this wonderful sort of speed
00:38:21.200 and he's pointing towards Italy and so on.
00:38:25.280 So he had a great form of sort of mouse for propaganda.
00:38:31.540 And it's interesting because I don't know if you saw the movie
00:38:35.600 that came out a couple of years ago.
00:38:39.440 I did, I did.
00:38:40.900 You're not a fan?
00:38:41.820 No, it was a terrible movie.
00:38:43.360 It was such a tragedy.
00:38:44.400 300 million Ridley Scott had to work on that. He had Napoleon bombarding the pyramids.
00:38:53.580 He puts the Battle of Austerlitz, the victory at Austerlitz, down to putting cannonballs through
00:38:59.360 the ice and the coalition forces sort of falling into it and drowning. He has Napoleon having sex
00:39:08.440 under the table at the Tuileries, whereas in fact Napoleon was very, very keen on the dignified
00:39:13.540 court. The idea of him having sex with Josephine when there were sort of attendants and courtiers
00:39:20.580 present is just ludicrous. He has Napoleon and Wellington meeting in Klymouth. I mean,
00:39:28.200 it just basically seems to almost go out of his way to get everything wrong. And when he was asked
00:39:34.100 about this, and various historians, including me, criticised him, he said his exact words were,
00:39:41.740 effing historians, what do they know?
00:39:44.500 They weren't there, were they?
00:39:47.540 Which is true, you know, we weren't there.
00:39:49.620 However, loads of people were
00:39:51.220 and they wrote down what happened
00:39:52.700 and we've read it.
00:39:55.140 Yeah.
00:39:55.900 Well, the reason I bring it up,
00:39:58.300 but it's interesting that you say that, of course,
00:40:00.080 from people who've watched the film
00:40:01.800 and so may have drawn conclusions that are inaccurate,
00:40:05.500 is you almost don't see him communicating with anyone
00:40:09.180 in any way.
00:40:10.340 Yeah. And he's portrayed as this very aloof character. And from what little I know about
00:40:15.440 leadership and those are not compatible. You can't be someone who's not capable of inspiring people
00:40:21.400 and communicating with them. And also, like Francis alludes to propaganda and managing
00:40:27.020 the sentiments of the nation. Yeah. You can't do that and be an effective leader for very long at
00:40:32.340 all, if ever. And so that aspect of his portrayal, I imagine, is also greatly inaccurate. Yes.
00:40:39.680 Yes, he comes over, the Joachim Phoenix character of Napoleon is glowering and ill-tempered and you wouldn't follow him anywhere.
00:40:51.760 No.
00:40:52.260 And yet this, the actual Napoleon was somebody who people were willing to follow across the deserts to Cairo and through the snowy wastes of Moscow and across every country you can think of in Europe.
00:41:07.360 It just doesn't compute at all.
00:41:12.740 And that's why I think it was great.
00:41:13.660 Yeah, there's this weird scene in that movie, isn't there,
00:41:15.580 where he sort of, he comes back
00:41:17.180 and the men who are sent to stop him
00:41:21.500 immediately turn to his side.
00:41:24.180 But watching that scene, you're going,
00:41:26.320 why did they do that?
00:41:27.660 This grumpy twat is turned up.
00:41:28.980 We're like, where's the inspiration here?
00:41:33.920 You know what I mean?
00:41:34.480 Yes, exactly.
00:41:34.940 So was he a great orator?
00:41:37.260 No, interestingly not.
00:41:39.040 He was a very good writer, as I mentioned,
00:41:42.040 with the proclamations and orders of the day and so on.
00:41:44.560 But in fact, he wasn't a great orator.
00:41:48.560 And that's partly because he had a Corsican accent,
00:41:51.320 which the French laughed at.
00:41:54.500 You know, they...
00:41:55.280 Doesn't sound like them.
00:41:56.280 They mimicked and generally that didn't give him...
00:42:02.420 Also, he had a slightly high-pitched voice as well,
00:42:04.860 which is a surprise.
00:42:05.840 And he was very short, was he not?
00:42:07.060 No, no, no, no.
00:42:08.000 No?
00:42:08.340 No, this is a...
00:42:09.320 The lies are all getting debunked here.
00:42:11.100 This is a myth.
00:42:12.460 He was five foot six, which was the average height for a Frenchman in those days.
00:42:18.240 And I also like to point out exactly my height.
00:42:22.300 So I don't like it when people call him a midget.
00:42:28.600 I hope.
00:42:30.220 Understandable.
00:42:30.700 Well, somebody as tall as you, Constantine, might think I'm, or at least Napoleon was a midget, but he wasn't.
00:42:36.460 The reason that that comes about is also propaganda, but in this case, British propaganda.
00:42:40.720 Because the genius, I mean, he was unfortunate in a sense that his time in power also coincided with the three great geniuses of British political caricature, Gilray, Rowlandson and Cruikshank.
00:42:56.740 And those three made him out to be tiny.
00:43:00.700 but at the same time dangerous.
00:43:02.480 It's interesting.
00:43:03.220 Usually, you know, you can have one or the other,
00:43:06.380 but they managed somehow to make him into a physical small person
00:43:11.460 at the same time a threat to England.
00:43:14.840 But there's a history of that.
00:43:16.260 If you think about, you know, the old...
00:43:17.760 It's not a meme, but to use modern parlance,
00:43:20.300 it is, you know, Hitler's only got one ball.
00:43:23.360 Do we know that that's not true, though?
00:43:25.360 Well, we know that the other is not in the Albert Hall.
00:43:30.700 So, it's a bit of a segue, but coming back to our story from that.
00:43:39.180 So, he comes back from Egypt, and what happens when he returns?
00:43:45.340 He's managed to keep his defeats out of the public eye.
00:43:48.240 Yes.
00:43:48.640 The government is corrupt and vapid and not working.
00:43:52.100 What happens from there?
00:43:53.040 He stages a coup, a military coup, and several of the people
00:43:58.740 who are going to become his marshals, are in key positions to help him. He has one friend,
00:44:06.800 Murat, who takes care of the cavalry. Jean Lannes takes care of the infantry. Marmont takes care of
00:44:16.500 the artillery. And his friend Berthier organises the staff. And what they do, the general staff,
00:44:23.780 What they do is to have a two-day essential uprising. The first forces the parliament to move out of Paris to Saint-Cloud. And then he, on the second day, he goes to Saint-Cloud and tries to persuade the parliament to adopt him as dictator, essentially, which it doesn't do.
00:44:46.800 It's furious and very resentful. And so he has to then go outside the Parliament building, or at least the Saint-Cloud Palace, and send grenadiers with fixed bayonets in to arrest the opponents and to essentially get rid of the Parliament.
00:45:08.240 they have to climb out of the window of the orangery at Saint-Cleu.
00:45:13.320 And they're all wearing, in those days,
00:45:15.400 the parliamentarians were wearing great big red togas.
00:45:19.680 And so they jump out of the windows and run away.
00:45:23.600 And of course, every state opening of parliament in the House of Lords,
00:45:28.540 I wear essentially a red toga, these sort of cloaks.
00:45:33.220 The idea of climbing through a window and running away, wearing one.
00:45:37.740 Just next to impossible. So as you can imagine, quite a lot of them are arrested and they're exiled, and Napoleon takes power as First Consul of France.
00:45:46.980 And is this a purely intra-elite battle, or are the French people with Napoleon?
00:45:55.540 The ordinary citizens of Paris don't mind that the Directory's been overthrown.
00:46:01.700 They have only ever heard good things about Napoleon since the Italian campaign.
00:46:05.960 They recognise that he's essentially, in this case, he argues that he's saving the Republic from this sort of, he makes up terror plots as well, says that the British are planning terror plots.
00:46:22.980 pots. He also thinks that he's under threat of assassination, which there's no evidence
00:46:28.480 of. So he creates a sort of security fear. And through it all, he grasps power. And the
00:46:37.480 French people do nothing. They seem to be perfectly happy with this. And then he appoints
00:46:46.160 two other consuls. So the three of them are supposed to rule France. He then brings in
00:46:52.020 a reformed parliament, which is essentially full of his own cronies. And he's done it.
00:46:59.420 And sort of touching on the marshals aspect, but also cronies, there are lots of people who clearly
00:47:05.680 he can trust. He can trust someone to run the artillery. He can trust someone to run the staff.
00:47:10.680 He can trust someone to be the other two consuls. Where does he get all his friends from?
00:47:15.360 Well, partly they are people who've been with him since the beginning.
00:47:18.980 So Berthier, who runs the general staff and becomes minister of war in his new government, was with him from the first day, indeed before the first day of the Italian campaign.
00:47:31.500 Murat, who was the man who brought the cannons from outside Paris to put down the uprising back in October 1795, and the following year becomes his, in 1800, becomes his brother-in-law.
00:47:45.560 These are sort of really close part of the family, essentially.
00:47:50.060 And then, of course, as there always are whenever power is shifting,
00:47:54.280 there are the ambitious people who want to be on the side of the rising sun
00:47:59.080 rather than the setting sun.
00:48:00.500 This is the boat to jump in if you want to make way.
00:48:04.780 So he's been through the wars with a lot of these guys that are around him.
00:48:09.900 And some of the opponents.
00:48:11.280 The interesting thing is that there are some people who he appoints as marshals later.
00:48:15.560 who actually opposed the Brumaire coup on political grounds,
00:48:20.360 because they were still Jacobins.
00:48:21.700 They wanted a republic, and they feared that if Napoleon takes over the country,
00:48:26.980 he might bin republicanism.
00:48:30.100 And sure enough, of course, he does.
00:48:31.420 Because he wants to be dictator.
00:48:33.120 Yeah.
00:48:34.700 And so he has overthrown the republic.
00:48:38.840 He's got himself and the two other councils.
00:48:41.560 Does he immediately turn his eyes on war again?
00:48:45.560 externally? Yes. He puts in a few popular measures. He makes sure that bread stays cheap,
00:48:55.360 which of course is absolutely vital if you're not going to be overthrown yourself. He institutes
00:49:01.160 the Bank of France, which tries to get inflation under control and very quickly actually does
00:49:05.500 very successfully. He brings in various reforms, enlightenment reforms that are popular with the
00:49:12.380 with the people. And then he goes off and crosses the Alps and tries to recapture Italy, which had
00:49:19.160 been lost in the time that he was in Egypt. I can't remember which historian. It may even
00:49:26.240 have been John Meiersheimer, with whom obviously I probably have a few disagreements. Same here,
00:49:30.400 by the way. I imagine. But he did describe Napoleon and Hitler, I think, as two congenital
00:49:37.320 aggressors, as he put it. Is this true about Napoleon? Is this just a guy who loved war so
00:49:41.920 much that he was just going to invade everyone until someone stopped him? No, he deeply believed
00:49:47.540 in the Enlightenment. In a sense, he was the Enlightenment on horseback. He wanted to bring
00:49:53.780 French revolutionary ideas, including meritocracy, to the rest of Europe. And secondly, he had many
00:50:01.020 more wars fought against him than he fought against others. The one that I mentioned, the 1800
00:50:07.880 campaign. Yes, he went off to fight it, but that was only after war had been declared against him.
00:50:13.900 And that was true in 1805, 1809. There were seven wars of the coalitions, they're called,
00:50:21.600 between 1792 and 1815. And of those, Napoleon only started two, and the other five were started
00:50:29.280 either against him or revolutionary France by the coalition powers, who hated the concept of
00:50:34.880 meritocracy because, of course, it put their own positions and thrones in danger.
00:50:40.400 I see. So he's almost like, as you know, in the Soviet Union, there were two types of
00:50:46.080 communists, those who believed in communism within one country and those who really saw
00:50:49.420 communism. The only way communism would work is if you exported it everywhere.
00:50:53.520 He was the exporting type.
00:50:55.100 Very, very much.
00:50:56.100 And the other powers were very aggressive and hostile to him because I guess they would
00:51:02.580 have seen effectively what they saw the French Revolution being, which is the great unwashed
00:51:07.420 overthrowing and upending the existing order. And killing the king. And obviously all of these
00:51:13.900 other countries, Prussia, Russia, Austria, Britain, are monarchies. And so they strike absolute terror
00:51:20.940 into the idea of... He sets a terrible example for their own citizens. Precisely. And another way,
00:51:28.180 Whilst we're on the Merseimer equation of Napoleon and Hitler, I think it's also worth
00:51:35.440 pointing out that actually these two men have nothing in common. Apart from the fact that
00:51:41.960 they fight wars, but then so do all sorts of democracies as well. When the French armies
00:51:51.840 entered places in Germany and Italy and elsewhere, one of the first things they did was to open
00:51:57.700 up the ghettos and let the Jews have religious and civil liberties for the first time, you know,
00:52:03.680 since before the Middle Ages. So you have this sense of the French Revolution being an enlightened
00:52:09.640 thing that was, in this case, very good for the Jews. Completely opposite, obviously, to what
00:52:16.980 you get from the Nazis. Let me say this because I know I'm not alone. At some point, your body
00:52:23.800 just stops bouncing back the way it used to. You train hard, you travel, you push yourself and
00:52:28.880 suddenly recovery takes longer. You wake up stiff, joints complain, skin, hair, nails, things don't
00:52:34.460 look or feel quite right anymore. So many people listening to this know exactly what I'm talking
00:52:39.440 about. What surprised me is that this isn't just getting older in some vague sense. A huge part of
00:52:45.220 it is collagen. Your body starts producing less of it from your mid-twenties onwards. Collagen is
00:52:50.580 basically the glue that holds everything together so when your levels drop you feel it everywhere
00:52:55.760 that's why i started using bubs naturals collagen peptides and i've stuck with it since i've added
00:53:01.920 it to my routine recovery is noticeably better joints feel stronger and my skin and hair have
00:53:06.760 improved i genuinely feel better now than i did a few years ago and that's not a placebo effect
00:53:12.260 it's fixing something fundamental it's also effortless i put it in my tea coffee or any drink
00:53:19.100 No taste, no smell, no clumps. You forget it's even there. And Bubz isn't just another supplement
00:53:24.920 brand. It was created in honor of Glenn Bub Doherty, a former Navy SEAL who was killed
00:53:30.840 saving Americans in Benghazi. The brand is built around discipline, self-improvement,
00:53:35.340 and doing things properly. They also donate 10% of all profits to charity through the Glenn
00:53:40.660 Doherty Memorial Foundation. The product itself is clean. No sugar, no fillers, third-party tested,
00:53:47.420 NSF certified for sport. Whole30 approved. Sustainably sourced from grass-fed pasture-raised
00:53:54.100 cattle. Over 100,000 people use it and it was named best collagen of 2024 by health.com.
00:54:02.160 If you recognize yourself in what I've just described, this is worth trying. Live better,
00:54:08.020 longer. For a limited time, get 20% off your entire order at bubsnaturals.com with code TRIG
00:54:15.180 or click the link in the description of this episode. That's B-U-B-S naturals.com,
00:54:22.820 code TRIG. And when they ask where you heard about them, tell them Trigonometry sent you.
00:54:27.840 Once more for 20% off, use code TRIG at bubsnaturals.com.
00:54:34.620 And also as well, there's the private aspect of Napoleon. And one of the things that I found so
00:54:40.120 interesting is, on the one hand, you have this military and strategic genius. And on the other
00:54:45.940 hand, you have this relationship and marriage with Josephine, which is, shall we just say,
00:54:52.180 chaotic, to put it mildly. It certainly was chaotic, not least because when he was out in
00:55:00.680 Egypt, she was unfaithful to him with a cavalry captain called Hippolyte Charles. And he
00:55:09.960 found out about it. And so when he came back from Egypt, they had this almighty row, and he had
00:55:16.320 all her stuff put out into the courtyard, and she begged him, and then the stuff was brought back
00:55:24.060 again, and they obviously had fabulous sex, and it was all alright. But he did embark on the first
00:55:32.580 after he heard about this infidelity,
00:55:36.020 the first of 27 affairs with mistresses.
00:55:40.880 So it's a...
00:55:43.940 He believed in meritocracy everywhere.
00:55:46.640 It's a complicated story.
00:55:49.980 But you see, also his marshals were,
00:55:53.860 I mean, their sex lives were like something,
00:55:55.900 like the Rolling Stones tour 1969.
00:55:58.000 I mean, they were absolutely,
00:56:00.100 there were lots of them tremendously handsome they were rich they were made into counts and
00:56:05.700 dukes and princes and kings and um and they were very attractive to women and and you know one
00:56:11.620 thing led to another well you talk about it in the book like the early stages it kind of sounds like
00:56:16.180 it just sound like a band really they're going around like having these and i can't remember
00:56:21.940 the name of one of the marshals wrote these post-humors or it was released post-humorously
00:56:27.240 and he was eulogising about how it was the greatest time of his life,
00:56:31.180 just lads on tour.
00:56:32.580 Yes, exactly, and that they thought nothing for anything
00:56:36.280 apart from glory and lust and fame.
00:56:40.740 Yeah, no, it was a very exciting time for them, of course,
00:56:44.980 until it went wrong.
00:56:46.140 Right, so let's come back to the story.
00:56:48.460 He becomes dictator, he goes off to Italy, you said?
00:56:53.200 Yes, he crosses the Alps into Italy
00:56:56.440 and fights and wins the Battle of Marengo in the June of 1800,
00:57:02.020 which essentially totally stabilises his rule back in France.
00:57:07.800 He pushes the Austrians out of Italy again for the second time.
00:57:13.480 And then he comes back to France.
00:57:15.620 And this is the period where he does all the big sort of popular stuff.
00:57:21.220 He creates the Code Napoleon.
00:57:23.280 He builds four bridges over the Seine.
00:57:26.020 he entirely changes the education system, he organises the administrative system of France
00:57:32.160 as well with the Conseil d'Γ‰tat and the Cours de Comte and so on. He gets the financial system
00:57:37.740 under control, he invents the LΓ©gion d'honneur. That is the period where he does all this.
00:57:43.380 So he's truly a great ruler.
00:57:45.120 Yes, he's a visionary figure when it comes to creating what is essentially the building
00:57:53.300 blocks of modern France. There are criticisms, you know, the Code Napoleon was tremendously
00:57:58.120 sexist. Tell us about the Code Napoleon. Well, France had at the time of his what's
00:58:04.860 called the Brumaire Coup, the coup that took place at the Palace of Saint-Cloud, France
00:58:10.900 had a series of overlapping and competing legislative codes, laws essentially, which
00:58:19.140 Some of them go back to Roman times. Others were Bourbon and they were complicated. Some parts
00:58:28.220 and regions of France adopted one set of codes and others others. So what he did was to standardise
00:58:36.560 the entire thing into one book called The Code Napoleon. He didn't actually put that much of
00:58:42.520 his own work into it. He oversaw it. It was done by committees of lawyers and it simplified the
00:58:48.760 entire French legal system, basically. But it was very sexist. The entire, all power essentially
00:58:57.580 in the family resided with the patriarch and not the wife. So it's very unpopular now,
00:59:05.560 but it has, it's survived into the legal systems of many European countries.
00:59:12.040 Wasn't one of the laws, if you found your wife cheating on you, you could have her killed?
00:59:17.640 No, I think you had to kill her yourself.
00:59:19.720 Oh, OK.
00:59:22.060 You've got to have some, you know.
00:59:23.560 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:59:24.560 You've got to do it.
00:59:26.000 Because otherwise, you know, all hell would break this.
00:59:28.160 Yeah, exactly.
00:59:29.660 Clearly speaking from experience, he took her quite personally, I take it, with Josephine.
00:59:34.060 OK, so this is an aspect that, frankly, I'm just being honest here about my own ignorance,
00:59:38.520 is I really hadn't appreciated the extent to which his domestic achievements were significant.
00:59:44.400 Huge.
00:59:44.600 And hugely contributory to the history of France.
00:59:47.760 Roads, reservoirs, drinking fountains that you can still see around Paris,
00:59:54.200 which were, to bring clean water into the centre of Paris
00:59:57.660 meant that you basically got rid of cholera,
01:00:00.580 which killed tens of thousands of people.
01:00:03.040 So that was useful.
01:00:05.380 Everything to do with killing the inflation was tremendously popular
01:00:09.940 because you actually got rid of that terror
01:00:13.380 that anything that you owned and possessed would be worthless.
01:00:18.500 So he was very good at that.
01:00:21.260 He provided mass employment, obviously also in his armies.
01:00:25.600 But he was a really efficient, hardworking,
01:00:32.960 but also visionary man who wanted to and did change France forever.
01:00:39.240 And where is he getting the money for all of this, Andrew?
01:00:41.720 Because the French Revolution, as I understand it, happens because the country is basically bankrupt, partly because they helped the Americans so much with their revolution.
01:00:50.480 So he inherits this poor country, fighting wars, which are expensive.
01:00:54.240 And then you're telling us within a decade or two, the country is flourishing, is spending money, building this, building that.
01:01:01.820 How does that happen?
01:01:03.400 Partly through the increase in trade that takes place when he signs a peace treaty with Britain in 1802.
01:01:10.720 So it's called the Peace of Amiens.
01:01:12.700 It doesn't last terribly long, but it allows the French to trade
01:01:16.860 because up until then, of course, the Royal Navy had entirely blockaded all French ports.
01:01:22.480 Partly also because he encouraged things like trade fairs.
01:01:28.560 He encouraged luxury goods, which the French have always been very good at.
01:01:33.040 Lyon, during the French Revolution, was devastated by the fact that people didn't buy silk and lace and velvet
01:01:39.380 it, because if you did, you looked like an aristocrat, you could have your head chopped
01:01:42.980 off. So he started up the luxury trades as well. And also stealing. That was the other
01:01:50.240 massive way in which he injected huge amounts of cash. When he went to Rome, for example,
01:02:00.020 he insisted on the Vatican handing over hundreds of manuscripts and lots of paintings and so on,
01:02:08.760 but also cash. And he would do this to town after town, city after city. He would impose,
01:02:14.560 outside France, obviously, he would impose these, what were called, dotations.
01:02:20.020 So somewhat civilised pillaging of the conquered territories.
01:02:22.820 Yes. And you can still today actually see in the Louvre, there are still paintings that were
01:02:28.440 stolen from Italy in the Italian campaign. And so this is essentially peak Napoleon,
01:02:36.420 really? Yes. Some historians would argue 1806, 1807, but certainly by 1805, you've got
01:02:46.820 Pete Napoleon. Pete Napoleon. And Pete Napoleon really is the Battle of Austerlitz, isn't it?
01:02:51.880 Yes. So let's talk about that. Why did it happen? Who was it against? And why was it such a
01:02:57.780 magnificent victory? Well, what was the war, in fact, perhaps? Tell us. Yes, it's called the
01:03:01.440 War of the Third Coalition. And it takes place when the Austrians, rather stupidly, invade
01:03:10.360 Bavaria, which is Napoleon's ally. And Napoleon at that point has his entire army on the Channel
01:03:21.480 Coast, looking out towards Britain and waiting for a moment that the Royal Navy can be tricked
01:03:27.500 away from England, and he can then cross the Channel and march on London, which is one
01:03:34.820 of his great dreams. And that doesn't take place. The Admiralty in Britain knows exactly
01:03:42.680 what he is trying to do. But the core system, which we mentioned earlier, of each of these
01:03:53.240 sort of mini-armies, are by that stage commanded, each of the corps are commanded by a marshal,
01:04:00.920 and they have headquarters all the way along the coast. And at the moment that he hears that
01:04:12.320 Bavaria is about to be invaded, i.e. before it is actually invaded, because he has spies all over
01:04:17.900 Europe. He turns, it's called the pirouette of Boulogne, he turns the entire army round and
01:04:29.160 marches straight towards Bohemia. And it's an extraordinary, and still today is taught actually
01:04:39.420 in military academies, extraordinary genius of this man Berthier, Alexandre Berthier,
01:04:46.580 who was an aristocrat. He was the chief of staff, and many people, many historians think he's still
01:04:53.140 the greatest chief of staff in military history. And what he did was to plot the entire army,
01:05:00.020 right the way down to the last man, how they got 600 miles across Europe without overlapping,
01:05:07.660 managing to keep all the supplies and food and everything going with them. This time,
01:05:14.860 they actually brought everything with them and it didn't slow them down because this man was an
01:05:20.740 absolute genius at manoeuvre. And they managed to free Bavaria and then do a pirouette inside
01:05:32.900 the Black Forest. So as the Austrians, who were being supported by the Russians,
01:05:38.980 thought they were coming in one direction, actually in the middle of the Black Forest,
01:05:42.360 They changed directions, 90 degrees, which you can do under the core system, because you just move the units around.
01:05:51.540 And then came south and captured Vienna.
01:05:57.940 And then after that, they met the huge, much larger Austro-Russian army at the Battle of Austalitz on the 2nd of December 1805,
01:06:09.960 which coincidentally was, not entirely coincidentally, was the first anniversary of the coronation of Napoleon as Emperor of France.
01:06:20.940 And it's an extraordinary set-piece battle, Auslitz.
01:06:26.200 When you go, I do recommend you, if you're ever in that part of the world, near Bruna in Bohemia, in the Czech Republic, you can see the battle from the place where Napoleon was, a little hill called Zoran.
01:06:43.860 And you can look down and see the way in which he, first of all, hid an entire corps under Marshal Salt in the valley, which was covered in mist.
01:06:57.380 So the coalition troops couldn't see that it was there.
01:07:01.220 And as the sun burnt off the mist, he sent the salt in a sort of surprise attack up the Prats and Heights.
01:07:09.980 At the same time that he was using Bernadotte and Davout, these great marshals of his, to hold the left hand of his line.
01:07:21.440 And then he had a very powerful right flank manoeuvre as well.
01:07:26.540 And frankly, the Austrians and Russians, who weren't very good at coordinating between them either, didn't know what hit them.
01:07:33.880 And they were pushed off the Pratsen Heights.
01:07:35.980 and in just a series of absolutely brilliant manoeuvres
01:07:41.080 entirely coordinated by him
01:07:42.740 but which he had explained to the marshals
01:07:45.120 the night before the battle
01:07:46.300 he managed to win easily the greatest victory of his career
01:07:51.960 which ended the Third Coalition
01:07:57.080 knocked them out
01:07:58.680 and essentially left him master of Europe.
01:08:03.180 And this was an essential part as well of the myth-making
01:08:05.600 because this was essentially one man against two armies.
01:08:09.680 Well, and also this myth that you see, in fact, in the movie
01:08:13.880 where he supposedly fired the cannonballs onto the lake
01:08:18.340 and the Russians and Austrians who are marching
01:08:21.120 all fall through the holes in the lake and drown and everything.
01:08:25.400 They've dredged those lakes.
01:08:26.840 There are a couple of cannons.
01:08:28.600 There are a few breastplates.
01:08:29.980 You know, there's the odd lance there.
01:08:32.540 But nothing significant.
01:08:34.580 That was not how he won Auslitz. He won Auslitz, not by some kind of clever trick, but by a series of brilliantly coordinated attacks.
01:08:44.580 And the way he was able to do that was through the use of this thing, the core system.
01:08:49.580 So each core would have its own artillery, cavalry and infantry, but also its own staff, its own supplies, its own medical.
01:09:00.580 It was essentially a mini-army, and each of them were commanded by marshals, and he had created this thing.
01:09:08.800 Maybe this is a good time to talk about the marshall, because it had been created the previous May, in May 1804.
01:09:17.360 This idea of he appointed 18 of his best generals, both to be, they were called marshals, the history of the marshall, it goes back to the 13th century in France,
01:09:28.320 But a few of them have been guillotined and there weren't any by 1804. He announced this new rank of marshal and gave it to his 14 top generals in the field and an extra four senatorial marshals who were heroes of France.
01:09:48.000 And over the next 11 years, up until Waterloo, he appointed another eight.
01:09:55.180 So you get up to 26 marshals in all.
01:09:58.360 And so the way in which he did that was partly because they were the best soldiers,
01:10:04.060 but also partly because he wanted to sort of set up a new meritocratic aristocracy.
01:10:10.920 Which is fascinating, particularly because the marshals, they were so different in their characters.
01:10:16.980 that Berthier was incredibly loyal, essentially a right-hand man,
01:10:22.940 and there were others that proved to be a little bit more disloyal.
01:10:26.920 Yes, that's right.
01:10:28.060 And actually people who had opposed the coup, the Brumaire coup,
01:10:34.880 like Marshal Bernadotte and Marshal Jourdan and Marshal Augereau,
01:10:41.000 these people actually were hardline Jacobins.
01:10:43.980 Jacobins. But he appointed them because he needed to have people from right the way across the
01:10:50.180 political spectrum. He also needed to have people from the army of Italy, as well as the army of
01:10:56.320 Germany and various other previous French revolutionary armies. So it didn't seem that
01:11:01.940 he was favoritizing. He, as we mentioned earlier, had people who came from incredibly lowly
01:11:08.320 backgrounds. Then there were some aristocrats like Davout and Berthier. And so with educational
01:11:14.480 qualifications, there's everything from Marshall Ney, who was virtually illiterate,
01:11:20.640 hardly went to school at all, to some really highly intelligent people who were very good
01:11:26.080 writers like Marmont and Davout. And so you have this really broad spectrum, but they did have,
01:11:33.820 they all have one thing in common, which was extraordinary raw courage. The 26 of them,
01:11:41.420 added together, suffered no fewer than 94 wounds in their lives. They averaged 3.6 wounds
01:11:49.000 per marshal, and five of them weren't wounded. They emerged unscathed. So you can imagine
01:11:54.640 Some people you had, Lan was wounded 11 times, Grouchy 14 times, and Marshal Nicola Udeno was
01:12:06.640 married, sorry, married, was wounded no fewer than 32 times. He was nicknamed the...
01:12:13.280 Interesting Freudian slip there, Andrew. Wounded and married.
01:12:16.900 Yes, for that. But isn't it amazing to think that one person, there were bayonet thrusts,
01:12:23.460 There were, he was hit by ricochet and cannibal.
01:12:28.280 Cannibal, he was very nearly killed on any number of occasions
01:12:33.260 by sword thrusts and by bullet wounds and everything.
01:12:36.700 He had so many holes in his body that his nickname was The Sieve.
01:12:40.340 Wow.
01:12:41.400 But what's really interesting is how he inspired that devotion and loyalty,
01:12:49.100 yet at the same time there was, I mean, this is modern vocabulary,
01:12:52.580 but there was a toxic element to it, wasn't there? Yes, that's right, because he was
01:12:58.340 attempting to create a band of brothers, but he wound up really creating a nest of vipers because
01:13:04.100 what really happened was that because they all got the same martial arts, the same rank,
01:13:12.740 they were desperate to outdo each other. The sense of competitiveness between them
01:13:18.180 absolutely was to wreck campaigns. There were four occasions when they drew swords on one
01:13:24.040 another or they wanted to fight duels against one another. The hatreds between them were
01:13:29.440 extraordinary. There were some friendships. Marshal Victor and Salt had mistresses who
01:13:35.400 were sisters, and that helped them get on with one another. Could have gone either way, that one.
01:13:40.500 But it was something that he soon found that this lust for glory and also having the same rank was to prove disastrous.
01:13:56.520 And would you say that's a failure of leadership on Napoleon's part, failure to contain that, to channel it correctly, to organize that in such a way that it was towards the common good as he saw it rather than the internal fighting?
01:14:08.940 or do you think that was just the inevitable reality?
01:14:11.360 I think it has to be put ultimately down to him.
01:14:15.020 You know, he's the person who created the Marshallette
01:14:16.840 and who tried to keep these guys in order.
01:14:20.520 He deliberately encouraged competition between them.
01:14:25.040 He was to say, after the Treaty of Tilsit,
01:14:27.900 which ended the War of the Fourth Coalition in 1807,
01:14:31.100 when he was negotiating with the Tsar Alexander I,
01:14:34.560 He said, I never let my generals know what I'm thinking and I encourage them to perform one another and I therefore can sort of stay above it and see what they're up to.
01:14:51.640 And so that was a deliberate attempt to encourage, to foster what was ultimately to be an unhealthy form of competition.
01:15:03.720 And it's really interesting, you mentioned the fourth coalition now.
01:15:07.240 I mean, after Austerlitz, is there no one, you know, the Russian emperor and others in Europe who go,
01:15:12.520 no, we've had our asses handed to us, maybe we should just let this guy crack on with it.
01:15:17.200 Yeah, you'd have thought, wouldn't you?
01:15:18.420 But the people who don't do that are the Prussians, who in the autumn of 1806, i.e. less than a year after Austerlitz, they think that they can take on France on their own.
01:15:34.300 They do get support from the Russians later on, but they reckon that their army, which of course was trained under Frederick the Great, but nevertheless Frederick the Great was long dead by then.
01:15:48.080 And they're well-drilled and all that, but they're a small country.
01:15:50.600 They're a small country, and what they don't have is universal conscription.
01:15:56.460 And the French, of course, since 1792, when they brought in universal conscription,
01:16:01.620 have much, much larger armies.
01:16:03.780 Plus, you know, they should have had a look and see what Napoleon had done, as you say,
01:16:07.160 not just at Auslitz, but in earlier campaigns, in the Marengo campaign, in the Italian campaign, and so on.
01:16:13.100 And they didn't.
01:16:14.420 They were mad, really, to have started that war.
01:16:19.860 And within two weeks of the war being fought, Napoleon was in Berlin.
01:16:25.400 And why would...
01:16:27.460 Look, Prussia is militaristic culturally.
01:16:30.100 Frederick the Grey has created this well-disciplined army
01:16:33.820 that outperforms others, etc.
01:16:36.240 But why are you invading?
01:16:38.320 What are they trying to achieve?
01:16:39.540 They are trying to essentially stay as the most important power in Central Europe.
01:16:52.060 They recognise Austria has been defeated badly, and they want to be as important as France, essentially,
01:17:03.320 which isn't going to happen under Napoleon,
01:17:07.800 at least not under Napoleon at this stage
01:17:10.380 when he's riding high
01:17:12.640 and he's got this incredibly talented bunch of marshals
01:17:16.420 who did very well
01:17:17.840 and they hadn't fallen out by the time of the Auslitz campaign.
01:17:22.100 A couple of them had Ney and Murat at a shouting match
01:17:24.860 but other than that they were working very well together.
01:17:28.160 The core system was working very well.
01:17:29.780 So, you know, the Prussians were sort of mad to have declared war.
01:17:35.100 And when they did, soon after doing that,
01:17:38.080 and Napoleon was expecting them to,
01:17:39.740 and his spies were telling him that this was about to happen,
01:17:42.760 it was actually the Queen of Prussia
01:17:44.160 who is thought to have put pressure on her husband
01:17:47.940 to have started this war.
01:17:50.500 She hated Napoleon and...
01:17:53.820 That's a good reason.
01:17:56.700 It seems to have been enough.
01:17:59.780 And you get this extraordinary, um, double battle on the 14th of October, 1806, um, called Jena
01:18:07.040 Auerstadt. And at Jena, the, um, the, um, Napoleon and Ney and various other marshals,
01:18:16.700 um, fight against what they think is the main Prussian army. But actually the main Prussian
01:18:22.420 army is just the rear guard. The main Prussian army is eight miles away. Um, and, uh,
01:18:29.780 And that has been taken on by Marshal Davout.
01:18:33.360 It's Davout's greatest victory.
01:18:34.860 He somehow fights a force that's over twice his size,
01:18:39.540 and he manages a double envelopment.
01:18:41.520 Wow.
01:18:42.160 Crushes it.
01:18:43.740 And when Napoleon finds out, he makes Davout a prince
01:18:49.220 and appreciates that this is incredible.
01:18:52.460 At that point, the whole of the French army
01:18:56.720 then just sweep across Prussia.
01:18:59.780 led by Murat and the cavalry. Murat is the finest cavalryman of the era and followed up by Marshal
01:19:07.060 Lan and Marshal Bernadotte. And they capture city after city after city and they capture
01:19:14.020 entire garrisons and some cities they capture 60 cannon and they push the Prussians right the way
01:19:22.980 up to the Baltic Sea, which is in fact Kaliningrad, now, you know, Russian territory, isn't it?
01:19:31.300 And that's when the Prussians and Russians come together to fight these two massive battles
01:19:38.100 at Ailao and Friedland in mid 1807. And by the way, before we get on to that,
01:19:45.300 the one thing I thought it'd be worth coming back to your point about courage and the wounds that
01:19:50.100 so many of these marshals had suffered. Is this because they're all meritocratically created and
01:19:57.080 therefore in order to become a marshal you've had to have fought for 10, 15, 20 years in lower ranks
01:20:03.200 and or is it also because as marshals they are sometimes leading from the front and still taking
01:20:09.420 wounds while in these high positions? Very much both of those, exactly that. So yes, they've been
01:20:14.540 fighting most of them since 1792. They have therefore had to come up the ranks often by
01:20:25.180 sheer bravery. Lan, who is wounded 11 times, is at the forefront all the time of his grenadiers
01:20:34.440 in the many battles, 14 major battles in the Italian campaign. And then he's wounded very
01:20:41.100 badly also in Egypt. But they have to be at the front because in order to be able to spot what
01:20:50.640 is going on, it's so different from the First World War where a general can sit in a chateau
01:20:56.740 five miles behind the front. They absolutely have to be there because they need to work out the
01:21:02.580 timings of everything that they're doing. And also, of course, they're getting orders sent by
01:21:07.420 aide-de-camp on horseback from Napoleon, and they have to carry out his orders as well. So it's not
01:21:14.760 surprising that quite so many of them get hit by shot and shell, and Lann loses his life when his
01:21:21.180 kneecaps are taken off by a cannonball at the Battle of Aspen, and he dies of gangrene.
01:21:27.900 Yeah. And so they've got the Prussians and the Russians pushed up against the Baltic Sea.
01:21:33.760 Yeah.
01:21:34.460 Well, how do those battles go?
01:21:35.660 He wins both of them. He's about to lose the Battle of Ilau when he unleashes Muirah, who makes the largest cavalry charge in history. I think it still is the largest cavalry charge in history. 16,000 is the maximum number. Some historians argue it's a bit less than that, but it's a huge number and certainly the biggest one of the Napoleonic Wars.
01:22:02.540 and he basically just drives them through the centre of the Russo-Prussian army.
01:22:12.280 And once they punch through the centre, they're able basically to split the armies in two.
01:22:19.120 So he wins that battle. Huge losses on both sides, but much bigger losses on the Russo-Prussian side.
01:22:26.860 And then there's the Battle of Friedland a little bit later, which is another huge victory where they managed to trap the Russians in a town, the town of Friedland, which has the river Alla going behind it.
01:22:46.540 And there are only two bridges to get over. And once they force them into the town, the enemy can't get over the bridges in time. And they're massacred and lots of them surrender.
01:23:00.320 So the war ends with these two big victories and Napoleon then imposes a peace in which
01:23:09.780 he essentially splits up Europe between Russia and France at the Treaty of Tilsit, which
01:23:16.060 is negotiated on a barge, a sort of raft in the middle of the River Neiman.
01:23:22.960 So wonderful.
01:23:24.400 He's doing great.
01:23:26.500 Yeah.
01:23:27.320 How does it begin to unravel from there?
01:23:29.540 It's sort of slightly begun to unravel already because in the December of 1806, when he's still in Berlin, he passes what's called the Berlin Decrees, which are the start of the continental system, which is a massive protectionist measure that is intended to cover the whole of Europe and which is intended to force Britain to the negotiating table.
01:23:58.660 because no merchant in Europe is allowed to trade with Britain, and that's what he also gets
01:24:05.940 Tsar Alexander I to agree to in the Treaty of Tilsit. So actually protectionism is the major
01:24:13.100 thing, I think, that brings him down, because it's in order to impose the continental system
01:24:18.900 that he goes to war against Portugal, which is a long-standing ally of Britain and ignored the
01:24:26.500 continental system in 1807, and then ultimately against Russia, which turns against the continental
01:24:34.100 system in 1811, which leads to his catastrophe of 1812. Before we get on to that, was one of
01:24:42.180 the signs that his grip was starting to lessen and weaken is that the fact that even though the
01:24:49.200 French won significant battles, they were starting to get more and more casualties inflicted
01:24:56.460 upon them. Especially at Ilau. That was really heavy. What happened was that Marshal Ogerow,
01:25:04.440 who's an amazing character, and we must talk about him at some stage, his Seventh Corps
01:25:12.480 was ordered to attack the Russians. There was a blizzard, and the blizzard came down.
01:25:20.600 He carried on marching, and it turned out that he marched straight into the guns of the Russians.
01:25:26.460 artillery. And the first they knew about it was, as the snow was swirling around them,
01:25:32.140 they suddenly saw the flashes of the Russian guns. Do you remember that bit in Master and
01:25:36.460 Commander at the beginning of the movie, the Russell Crowe movie, Master and Commander,
01:25:40.540 where they can suddenly see the flashes in the mist, and then they start exactly like that,
01:25:47.820 and it wiped out Seven Corps.
01:25:51.160 So Napoleon couldn't sustain that kind of series of losses forever,
01:25:58.840 especially if he's fighting the whole of Europe.
01:26:00.860 So at that point, why was it that he decided to invade Russia?
01:26:07.920 Well, he was forced to, in a way,
01:26:12.560 if he wanted to defend the continental system.
01:26:15.200 Instead of doing what we now, I think, especially people from the kind of political background that we've got, we'd have allowed free markets to deal whether or not you wanted to trade with whoever.
01:26:30.720 That would have actually been the way to have gone about it.
01:26:33.680 But he instead imposed what was called Colbertian economics, which was all about closing down free markets and free enterprise as much as possible.
01:26:44.360 And so when the Russians in 1811 decided that they were going to resume trade with Britain,
01:26:50.400 because they really needed to, he invaded Russia to try and force them back into the continental
01:26:56.120 system. And of course, by then also, he had invaded Portugal and then went on also to invade Spain,
01:27:03.100 even though Spain wasn't threatening the continental system. And so he had a war on two
01:27:09.540 France. He had a massive war in which he was to lose a quarter of a million men in the Peninsular
01:27:14.480 War in Spain and Portugal, and he lost half a million men in Russia in 1812. And by the way,
01:27:21.300 just to jump in, from what I understand, the Spanish and Portuguese campaign was largely
01:27:25.660 so brutal and painful and so many losses because of the British involvement.
01:27:30.580 No, no, no, no. The actual, the Portuguese and Spanish, a good deal of work's been done on this
01:27:38.300 historically. And that assumption was true until believed widely, including by me, I hasten to add,
01:27:45.400 until 10 years ago or so. But now a lot of work's been done on quite the number of Frenchmen killed
01:27:50.980 by Spanish regular troops, but also partisans. And what the British did was constantly to allow
01:27:58.760 the Spanish and Portuguese to stay in the war. There was no point at which they sort of gave up
01:28:05.160 because the Duke of Wellington in Spain
01:28:10.720 was constantly able to attack the French
01:28:16.020 and it was very good for morale and so on.
01:28:18.500 But actually, if you look at each individual Frenchman who dies,
01:28:22.240 the Spanish and Portuguese kill more than we do.
01:28:24.380 And it's interesting that we talk about Wellington
01:28:26.360 because this was obviously the first time
01:28:28.200 these two great military minds encountered each other.
01:28:32.120 Well, no, they didn't.
01:28:32.940 I mean, they encountered each other in the strategic sense in that they knew what the other was doing, but the only time they actually faced each other across a battlefield was at Waterloo, absolutely, yeah.
01:28:43.500 Because Napoleon didn't spend enough time in Spain.
01:28:46.280 He went over just for three months in 1808, 1809, just January 1809.
01:28:53.060 And then he went away and fought the Austrians again and got married and so on, and never concentrated on what he should have done, which was to close down the Peninsular War.
01:29:06.300 And so he left it up to his marshals, who, as I mentioned earlier, all hated each other and refused to help each other.
01:29:13.680 And MassΓ©na had to sack Ney. Marmont didn't help MassΓ©na.
01:29:18.620 MassΓ©na. Their salts didn't help anybody. He just stayed in Andalusia and refused to help anybody.
01:29:26.260 There were massive, there were 18 marshals who served in Spain and Portugal, and only one of
01:29:33.220 them, Suchet, emerges with any credit. So at this point, the marshals had, it had worked,
01:29:41.920 and it worked spectacularly well in Austerlitz, but we see now the royal fractures starting to
01:29:48.040 appear and the various personalities start to fragment. Particularly in Spain where they all
01:29:56.160 fell out with one another but also in Russia because although it went well at the beginning
01:30:02.360 by the time they got to Moscow and then started to retreat from Moscow and the weather turned
01:30:07.440 they all argued about which route to take back and viciously you know there's one moment where
01:30:15.280 Davout and Murat, have to be physically restrained from fighting one another over this.
01:30:21.580 So, and one can understand, you know, the passions are high, the testosterone is running,
01:30:26.660 it's matters of life and death. And so, of course, they really, and they deeply believed
01:30:33.880 their own strategic thinking. So you can understand why there were these clashes.
01:30:39.980 But Napoleon, all too late, ever steps in to try and stop it from happening.
01:30:45.280 And in Spain, he never appoints somebody who is sort of top marshal.
01:30:50.620 And that's a disaster for him.
01:30:53.420 But it's also as well, and it's a really powerful one,
01:30:55.800 it's literally the last line in the book where you basically say
01:31:00.040 he gave them everything except the one thing they craved, which was respect.
01:31:04.720 Yes, his respect they wanted, but instead he was incredibly transactional with them.
01:31:10.960 He gave them princedoms and two of them became kings.
01:31:17.380 He gave them huge amounts of just sheer cash.
01:31:20.840 They also got beautiful estates in the country.
01:31:23.160 They got these wonderful Parisian townhouses.
01:31:27.280 But they wanted more than that.
01:31:29.240 They wanted to feel that he admired them.
01:31:31.920 And instead, he just slapped them down the entire time.
01:31:34.980 The letters, he wrote 40,497 letters that are published in the correspondence volumes, and they are full of him slapping them down, saying, I'm disappointed, I'm disenchanted, you've failed, you're useless.
01:31:53.580 You know, I mean, he was incredibly, although he was a wonderful man-manager when it comes to his soldiers, he was a terrible one when it came to the leadership techniques that he used to his marshal.
01:32:05.120 And why?
01:32:07.260 Partly because when things had started to go wrong, he was genuinely extremely irritated by any reverse.
01:32:15.720 But he was also such a massive micromanager and essentially a control freak that he would exaggerate things that were going wrong.
01:32:27.720 And he tried to involve himself into the minutiae of absolutely every decision.
01:32:34.820 And this meant that the marshals weren't able to use their own initiatives.
01:32:40.320 And very often there were some very good marshals. Davout, MassΓ©na were first-class strategists.
01:32:47.320 But they were being deluged all the time with blizzards of letters from Napoleon,
01:32:54.320 telling them even things that they really knew about,
01:32:57.320 like how fast men should march to get from A to B and so on.
01:33:01.320 There were four marshals who were actually officers in the army before Napoleon was born.
01:33:07.320 and he was telling them where bread kilns should be made
01:33:11.920 and how tents should be put up and things like that.
01:33:15.540 So he didn't really, even though he had the system of meritocracy
01:33:18.840 which promoted the best, he nonetheless was so convinced of his own greatness
01:33:22.520 that he couldn't let them make some of the decisions at a lower level.
01:33:27.300 Exactly, and this was all the more weird when it came to Spain
01:33:31.280 because in Spain you have this situation where he can't get a message to them and back
01:33:37.060 for sometimes three months.
01:33:39.260 Because the partisans would intercept the Aide-de-Cart,
01:33:42.980 you had to send these messages with huge amounts of troops
01:33:47.720 if they're going to get through to Paris.
01:33:51.020 And it takes weeks and weeks.
01:33:52.980 And then to come back also takes weeks and weeks.
01:33:56.300 So he really needed a man on the spot and never appointed one.
01:34:00.360 And so that was a major failure.
01:34:02.560 Why didn't he?
01:34:03.460 Was he just, he believed in the system so much
01:34:05.740 because it had been so successful?
01:34:07.660 At one point, he...
01:34:09.200 Well, first of all, it is he believed in himself so much
01:34:11.720 and thought that he would be more likely to be right,
01:34:15.860 even though it was a long time behind the times, as it were,
01:34:20.380 with regard to how long messages got there.
01:34:23.920 The other thing was a straightforward political one.
01:34:26.600 He didn't want to have another general
01:34:31.080 who was in charge of a quarter of a million of his men.
01:34:34.700 And he made that clear.
01:34:35.740 He didn't want to give any marshal that kind of power.
01:34:42.200 And was he right to worry about that?
01:34:44.540 Well, he'd himself taken power in a military coup.
01:34:48.540 So that was the only way that he was likely to be overthrown.
01:34:53.800 But were there hatching plots against him
01:34:56.040 before the very late stages?
01:34:58.780 Were his marshals genuinely thinking,
01:35:02.200 oh, I'll get a quarter million troops
01:35:04.000 and then I can be Napoleon?
01:35:05.280 Or were they loyal to him?
01:35:06.860 One of them was.
01:35:08.020 Bernadotte was always thinking about how he could become king or emperor of France.
01:35:14.220 And some of them, especially Augereau, after the loss of his division,
01:35:19.860 he turned against Napoleon, wasn't helpful to Napoleon pretty much at all after that.
01:35:25.720 And then Marmont surrendered Paris in 1804,
01:35:29.840 even though he was Napoleon's closest friend from school.
01:35:32.560 and that was particularly painful for Napoleon.
01:35:36.040 And Murat, after the retreat from Moscow,
01:35:38.560 joined the Allies and betrayed him completely.
01:35:41.160 And even though he was married to Napoleon's sister,
01:35:43.920 in fact, she, Caroline, was the person who was behind this
01:35:47.760 and thought that they needed to jump ship
01:35:50.720 in order to stay King and Queen of Naples.
01:35:53.480 So as things started to go wrong,
01:35:56.660 a lot of the marshals started to jump ship.
01:36:00.000 So we got in the story about as far as Russia.
01:36:05.040 So he invades Russia.
01:36:07.720 Initially, it's going well.
01:36:09.120 And then the famous General Winter comes into effect.
01:36:13.160 And as someone who is from Russia, it always surprises me reading history books.
01:36:16.260 And this may be a very superficial reading of it.
01:36:18.320 But, you know, these great military commanders don't realize there's winter in Russia.
01:36:22.360 And it's quite bad.
01:36:23.600 Is that actually what happens?
01:36:24.980 Or is it more complicated than that?
01:36:26.380 It's a bit more complicated than that.
01:36:27.780 But overall, Napoleon, he owned almanacs, which said what the winter was like in Russia.
01:36:36.000 And when the snow started to fall, he'd studied Voltaire's history of the campaigns of Charles XII of Sweden in Russia when the catastrophe at Voltaire.
01:36:51.020 So, yeah, he knew that this was going to happen.
01:36:53.600 And in fact, he did plan to be able to get back to Smolensk in less time than it had taken him to get from Smolensk to Moscow.
01:37:02.600 But on the 25th of October, 1812, at Malayaroslavets, which is about 75 miles southwest of Moscow,
01:37:15.140 he suffered a reverse, or at least his nephew suffered a reverse,
01:37:23.400 and then he took the wrong sort of long dog leg back via the battlefield of Borodino.
01:37:31.720 And he did this because he was advised to by some of his marshals.
01:37:35.000 It's virtually the only time that he actually takes his marshals' advice,
01:37:38.900 and it turns out to be catastrophic advice, because that's when the blizzards hit.
01:37:43.760 And it's also, we talk about a Russian winter,
01:37:46.520 but what we also need to talk about is a Russian summer
01:37:48.920 and the effect it has on troops and disease.
01:37:51.500 So let's discuss that.
01:37:52.820 Yes, well, typhus in particular hit the 100,000-strong central thrusting force
01:38:00.900 of the French army and killed tens of thousands. Actually, it's interesting, quite recently there's
01:38:07.060 been a mass grave that's been found in Vilnius, and they've done a lot of testing of the bones
01:38:14.660 of the soldiers in that grave, and they've discovered 14 different viruses and illnesses
01:38:21.380 and sort of diseases, including typhus, that can kill people.
01:38:26.320 So it's a, you know, the army was horribly,
01:38:31.120 and these are people going into Russia rather than coming out.
01:38:33.960 You know, once you're coming out,
01:38:36.580 then Marshal Ney, who's in charge of the rear guard,
01:38:41.040 who's nicknamed the Bravest of the Brave,
01:38:43.460 is tremendously, extraordinarily brave.
01:38:46.800 But he's unable, really, to save many more than a few thousand.
01:38:52.260 And in all, of the 615,000 that go into Russia, only 93,000 come back.
01:38:59.820 And that really is the beginning of the end, isn't it?
01:39:02.040 That's it. That's it.
01:39:03.080 I mean, it's not it, finally, because you still need the Battle of Leipzig in 1813,
01:39:10.460 which is also a huge catastrophe for him.
01:39:13.500 when a bridge explodes and Marshal Poniatowski is drowned
01:39:18.500 crossing over the river.
01:39:19.880 Marshal MacDonald does manage to get over.
01:39:22.760 But that's really the...
01:39:26.640 It's pretty much all over.
01:39:28.520 Although he does fight a very successful series of battles in 1814.
01:39:33.500 In the 1814 campaign, what's called the six days fighting,
01:39:39.020 he wins five battles in six days.
01:39:41.200 And there are many scholars actually who think
01:39:42.900 that those are his greatest achievements militarily.
01:39:45.840 As good as Italy.
01:39:47.460 Yeah.
01:39:47.800 And why is that?
01:39:49.760 Because he's going back to the original things, really,
01:39:54.820 speed, strategy of the central position.
01:39:58.880 He's got quite small forces who are winning
01:40:03.940 very good tactical victories day after day.
01:40:07.360 And, of course, he's fighting in France,
01:40:09.020 which gives him some added sort of home team, home turf advantage.
01:40:15.720 So just coming back to the chronological side of this, Andrew,
01:40:20.060 so he flees Russia effectively with a fraction of the men that he entered it with.
01:40:26.740 What happens from there?
01:40:28.620 Well, he then goes all the way back to Paris
01:40:31.320 and he leaves Murat in charge of the army.
01:40:34.560 And Murat doesn't want to be there
01:40:35.780 because he wants to go back to Naples to try and protect his kingdom.
01:40:39.020 And so he hands over, and Berthier is running the army anyway, along with Davout. And so together they try and turn the army into something worthwhile, but the Russians are coming.
01:40:54.800 And then at the key moment in December 1812, the Prussians changed sides.
01:41:02.760 And then halfway through the next year, the Austrians changed sides.
01:41:06.320 So suddenly these marshals, who are far too far east, have to bring themselves, get themselves back.
01:41:16.040 Sometimes they leave people in important places like Dresden and Hamburg.
01:41:21.680 But otherwise, they pull back.
01:41:24.800 for the great sort of reckoning in 1814.
01:41:29.520 And it's 1814. What year does he abdicate?
01:41:33.540 In April 1814.
01:41:35.600 In April 1814.
01:41:36.480 As the result of the Marshals coming together at Fontainebleau
01:41:39.660 and insisting on it.
01:41:42.620 Because by that stage, Marmont has surrendered Paris
01:41:45.300 at the end of March 1814.
01:41:48.900 And you've got to make the decision at Fontainebleau,
01:41:52.260 his palace there, his hunting lodge,
01:41:54.800 do you try to recapture Paris?
01:41:58.880 And the men are all up for it.
01:42:00.960 The guard, the ordinary squaddies,
01:42:04.280 these guys are up for the fight.
01:42:06.980 The marshals by that stage are not.
01:42:09.520 They've seen the size of the Allied armies that are coming.
01:42:14.980 They're sick of war by then, actually, a lot of them anyway.
01:42:17.780 They want to go back to their estates and their families.
01:42:20.300 They haven't seen their families for many months,
01:42:23.220 years, in a couple of cases.
01:42:24.800 And they've gone through the 1812 campaign, which has seen frostbite and cannibalism and appalling losses and drownings and so on.
01:42:36.600 And they just, by that stage, they want peace and they impose it on Napoleon.
01:42:44.260 Now, there's a big historical debate, and I come down very strongly on one side,
01:42:48.840 about quite how rude people like Ney and Udineau and others were to Napoleon's face.
01:42:56.180 I don't believe they were. I think they treated it like a council of war.
01:43:00.720 But nonetheless, there was no way out for Napoleon by then.
01:43:05.100 And this is where it gets really, really interesting,
01:43:07.500 because the fact that he was emperor kind of saved his bacon a little bit, didn't it?
01:43:12.500 Yes, because he went off to the Isle of Elba rather than, he was in charge of Elba.
01:43:20.020 He was the sovereign prince of Elba and he kept the title emperor.
01:43:24.560 And he wasn't just sort of, you know, imprisoned.
01:43:28.460 Because, and the reason was, is because he crowned himself as emperor, he was treated like royalty.
01:43:34.620 Whereas if he wasn't, the punishment would have been somewhat harsher, wouldn't it?
01:43:39.260 Also, he did have the loyalty of the soldiers, and they didn't want any more fighting.
01:43:47.580 And if he called upon them to, they probably would have.
01:43:50.380 He just wouldn't have had his marshals with him.
01:43:53.040 And the other reason, of course, is that in the meantime, in 1810,
01:43:56.620 he married the daughter of the Emperor of Austria.
01:44:00.380 And so in that sense, he was definitely royal by marriage, if not obviously by birth.
01:44:07.080 And so killing him or executing him would have been out of the question at this point.
01:44:10.480 Yes.
01:44:11.040 So he gets exiled to Elba.
01:44:13.100 There's one point as well, because everybody agreed, actually, that this was a great idea.
01:44:19.380 Apart from the Brits, who were like, um...
01:44:21.920 Well, they had the frigates that would keep an eye on him in Elba.
01:44:30.080 And they recognized that it was quite a difficult thing to do.
01:44:32.780 It wasn't helped by the fact that the British governor kept going off to Florence
01:44:39.760 to visit his eye doctor and his mistress.
01:44:45.720 In that order.
01:44:47.500 You want to make sure you can see.
01:44:50.200 The mistresses play a heavy role in all of this.
01:44:52.760 We're talking about the French, well, and the British in this instance.
01:44:56.100 So he was then on Elba, and he actually, when he was emperor of Elba,
01:45:01.740 which is a grandiose title, but he made a pretty good fist of it, didn't he, for a while?
01:45:05.500 Oh, yeah. If you go to visit Elber now, you can see the fountains that he built,
01:45:09.620 and he organised street lamps and new forms of mining and things like that.
01:45:19.620 No, he was, I mean, this is what he did.
01:45:21.460 When he went to a city, he imposed Enlightenment ideas and reforms.
01:45:28.000 But Elber turned out to be a little bit too small for his ambitions.
01:45:30.760 Yes, and he was there 10 months, and he escaped, and unfortunately, over the next year or so, it was much less than that, really.
01:45:43.720 He landed on the 1st of March, and the Battle of Waterloo was on the 18th of June.
01:45:48.240 So in that period, tens of thousands of people were to be killed and wounded.
01:45:54.880 So he comes back in March, must as an army?
01:45:59.160 Must as an army, yes, absolutely.
01:46:01.120 He lands with only 300 men.
01:46:03.240 By the time he gets to Paris,
01:46:05.920 Marshal Messina has essentially let him get away.
01:46:09.360 Marshal Ney has said that he will bring Napoleon,
01:46:12.700 has told King Louis XVIII that he will bring Napoleon
01:46:17.260 back in an iron cage and then goes off and changes sides
01:46:21.580 and actually joins Napoleon.
01:46:23.480 Marshal Salt, who's the Minister of War, also changes sides.
01:46:28.020 And why do they do this, Andrew?
01:46:29.420 Seeing their old leader back again,
01:46:32.200 bring the band back together.
01:46:33.780 There's an element of the Blues Brothers.
01:46:37.080 But much more seriously,
01:46:41.100 the Bourbons have, even in those short ten months,
01:46:44.980 managed to irritate everybody.
01:46:47.740 So you've brought back the monarchy.
01:46:48.960 The monarchy is just as useless as it was before.
01:46:51.020 Yes.
01:46:51.440 Everyone realises it's a failed experiment.
01:46:53.520 Let's give Napoleon another go.
01:46:54.900 Yes.
01:46:55.200 And also the army is all on half pay, which they don't like.
01:47:01.140 The return of Napoleon means that they're going to be paid properly.
01:47:04.280 You have people like Davout who have never taken an oath of allegiance to the Bourbons and weren't about to.
01:47:14.340 So he's absolutely fine to fight back.
01:47:17.700 And yeah, so there's this.
01:47:19.360 But the interesting thing is that of the 26 marshals, by the time he lands in France, there are, well, three of them have died.
01:47:31.060 Lann, who I mentioned earlier, his great friend Bessier took a cannibal to the chest in 1813, and Poniatowski drowned in the Battle of Leipzig.
01:47:40.680 And then a couple of weeks later, Berthier dies on the 1st of June.
01:47:46.860 We don't know why.
01:47:48.300 It's a mystery.
01:47:48.840 he either fell from the window or he jumped from the window
01:47:51.600 or he was pushed from the window, I come up.
01:47:55.020 Sounds like modern Russia.
01:47:56.240 Yeah, well, the Russians were actually marching through the town at the time.
01:48:01.040 And so would it have been so difficult for the Russian commanders to think,
01:48:05.060 we don't want Berthier at the battlefield of,
01:48:08.740 we wouldn't have known it as Waterloo,
01:48:10.220 but we don't want Berthier helping Napoleon again.
01:48:12.960 Let's just send a squad round to chuck him out the window.
01:48:16.160 And this is where we come to Sir Arthur Wellesley,
01:48:20.220 the Duke of Wellington.
01:48:21.220 Yeah.
01:48:21.640 And how does he compare with Napoleon
01:48:25.460 in terms of military expertise, brilliance, genius?
01:48:29.180 Are they equally matched?
01:48:30.520 Is one better than the other?
01:48:32.740 Well, on the day of Waterloo,
01:48:35.120 Wellington is his best self
01:48:38.820 and he outmanoeuvres, outgenerals Napoleon.
01:48:42.900 But Wellington hasn't lost a battle in his life.
01:48:46.020 He's never lost a gun, even.
01:48:48.060 I mean, he's had to retreat from Burgos.
01:48:49.940 But otherwise, he has a completely unblemished record when it comes to fighting battles.
01:48:54.900 Some have been very heavy.
01:48:56.740 He's lost a lot of men, like at Tanavera.
01:48:59.400 But otherwise, I mean, he is a proper military genius.
01:49:02.860 And so is Napoleon.
01:49:04.440 But Napoleon's fought, whereas Wellington's fought sort of 35, it depends how you define a battle, obviously,
01:49:11.320 but 35 engagements, significant engagements.
01:49:15.480 Napoleon's fought 60.
01:49:17.760 And by the end of it, he had won 47, drawn six and lost six.
01:49:24.380 And there was a fascinating part of this story where,
01:49:28.640 didn't Wellington have the chance to get rid of Napoleon
01:49:31.720 right at the very beginning of the battle,
01:49:34.060 but thought it was ungentleman.
01:49:35.640 This is a great story, by the way.
01:49:37.220 Yes, one of his artillery commanders,
01:49:41.320 saw Napoleon on the other side of the battlefield. And it's quite easy to see because of the
01:49:47.400 distinctive hat and the grey coat, and also the fact that he's followed by these marshals.
01:49:54.360 And marshals wear the most extraordinary uniforms, fantastic plumes in their hats and
01:50:01.800 enormous brocaded collars and gold all over them and everything like that. And he's also
01:50:07.080 followed by Aide de Combes, other members of the staff. And so the artilleryman said,
01:50:13.320 you know, shall we take potshots at Napoleon? And Wellington wouldn't have it. He said,
01:50:21.320 he's supposed to have said at least, that gentlemen do not take potshots at one another.
01:50:26.360 How things have changed in more ways than just war. But Andrew, he's mustered the army in March.
01:50:34.120 I just want to understand how we get to Waterloo.
01:50:36.980 Is the reaction to him coming back to France,
01:50:39.560 okay, we've got to deal with this guy now?
01:50:41.580 From the coalition?
01:50:43.660 Yeah.
01:50:43.980 Yes, I mean, it's very fortunate for them
01:50:45.480 that they are in Vienna,
01:50:49.520 at the Congress of Vienna,
01:50:51.080 all talking to one another.
01:50:53.740 They're trying to decide the world order.
01:50:56.140 World order post-Napoleon.
01:50:59.300 And then they all hear on the 6th of March
01:51:01.560 that he's back.
01:51:03.960 On the 13th of March, they declare him an outlaw and they organize huge armies, 350,000
01:51:12.200 Russians, 150,000 Austrians, and then there are this Anglo-Prussian army up in the Netherlands.
01:51:23.420 So, again, sticking to his strategy of the central position, Napoleon decides in early
01:51:34.660 June to go north and to strike at the hinge between the Prussian army and what's called
01:51:42.460 the Anglo-Allied army, as well as the British army, there are lots of other soldiers, German,
01:51:48.660 in Belgium, Dutch and so on. And that's how the Battle of Waterloo happened. Yes. And how does it
01:51:55.800 go? Well, I see it, of course, through the eyes of the marshals, because he's come back. He only
01:52:03.200 has six marshals declare for him. And he leaves Davout, perhaps his greatest soldier, and the
01:52:12.720 man who had done the double envelopment at Auerstadt leaves him in Paris, which is an
01:52:18.660 insane mistake. You need to have your best men on the field with you. He gave some very
01:52:23.780 important jobs in Paris, governor of Paris and minister of war, head of the National
01:52:29.000 Guard and so on. But he should have been on the battlefield. He takes with him Marshal
01:52:33.980 Ney, who he only warns that they're going on campaign the day before the army actually
01:52:40.940 leaves. And he also takes Marshal Salt, who hadn't been a Chief of Staff for 15 years
01:52:48.440 since the Siege of January in 1800, but makes him Chief of Staff, which he shouldn't have
01:52:54.440 been because he was actually a very good defensive general against Wellington in the Peninsular
01:52:59.620 War latter stages. Suchet, who's another very good soldier, he leaves down in the middle
01:53:05.660 of France, then he was going to have Monsy in charge of his imperial guard, but Monsy
01:53:11.260 got sciatica the day before and so wasn't able to be at the battle. So one of the great questions
01:53:19.320 actually that I ask in this book is, how is it that of the 26 marshals, he only actually enters
01:53:27.680 the battle of Waterloo with two, Ney and Soult, who are both in the wrong positions and they hate
01:53:33.740 each other. And the other marshal who he has created since he landed from Elba, Marshal Grouchy,
01:53:40.180 he's sent off to, after a victory two days before Waterloo, sent off with 33,000 men and 93 guns
01:53:50.340 that could have made all the difference at the Battle of Waterloo. And Grouchy wasn't able to
01:53:56.240 get back in time for the battle. So do you really think that the reason he loses Waterloo is that?
01:54:01.580 is, I think it's, I think the lack of marshals is, I mean, he fought Battle Borodino with 10
01:54:08.280 marshals. He's down to two. And as I say, they're in the wrong position and they don't get on with
01:54:13.500 one another either. I think that Wellington, one must never take away the fact that Wellington
01:54:19.740 out-generaled and out-maneuvered Napoleon. His defence at Hougamont was superb, holding on to
01:54:28.700 the Haysaint farmhouse in the centre of the battlefield until 6.30 was also crucial. The
01:54:35.420 way in which the Dernon's central attack up the centre was turned back and then heavily punished
01:54:45.260 by the charges of the Union and Housegold Brigade. Lots of things are going on at the Battle of
01:54:50.940 Waterloo. But I think it's, what this book tries to argue at least, is that the lack of marshals
01:54:59.940 is a serious problem for Napoleon. Because there's a lot of people, Andrew, who think, you know,
01:55:05.120 obviously the battle of the Waterloo was the end of Napoleon, but if it hadn't have been Waterloo,
01:55:09.920 it would have been another battle, such were the French outnumbered. Exactly. Well, as I mentioned,
01:55:14.080 If you add the 150,000 Austrians and the 350 Russians, you've got half a million men who are marching.
01:55:21.980 So even if Napoleon had won Waterloo, he'd have found it impossible, I think, to have defended Paris.
01:55:29.560 And from there, he gets exiled to St Helena, where he meets his, well, kind of very peaceful end, right?
01:55:37.780 Not that peaceful in that he had cancer.
01:55:39.960 He had very bad cancer, so it was painful, painful for him.
01:55:44.080 But he doesn't sort of threaten the peace of Europe between 1815 when he lands on St. Helena and 1821 when he dies.
01:55:55.100 Why don't they just lop his head off the second time?
01:55:57.600 Because at this point you must be thinking, come on, this guy's gone too far now.
01:56:04.480 Well, he...
01:56:05.620 Very Russian question of me, I appreciate it.
01:56:08.060 First of all, he surrendered.
01:56:11.720 And so there's that.
01:56:14.080 Secondly, the Prussians could, they possibly would have shot him, but he very sensitively surrendered to the British, who considered that that was a bad idea.
01:56:27.320 There were political reasons why not, too, in that it would have probably started civil war amongst Frenchmen.
01:56:36.440 As it was, the Marshal Ney was shot by the Bourbons.
01:56:40.640 Marshal Murat was shot by the Neapolitans.
01:56:44.620 Marshal Brun was ripped to shreds by a royalist crowd in Avignon.
01:56:52.240 And years later, Marshal Mortier was assassinated in the streets of Paris.
01:56:56.460 So you do have a strong sense, I think, that the bloodshed should end.
01:57:02.660 and killing Napoleon wouldn't have done that.
01:57:06.320 And to wrap it up, what is the legacy of Napoleon?
01:57:09.600 Because some people say, well, a lot of his vision and his ideas
01:57:13.460 were inspiration from creating the European Union.
01:57:17.500 There's a left-wing version in France of people,
01:57:20.500 how they look at Napoleon.
01:57:21.620 There's a right-wing version.
01:57:22.980 How do you see this man and his legacy?
01:57:24.860 I think he was very important for a lot of the aspects of modern France
01:57:31.500 that are positive.
01:57:35.640 I'm not including the European Union in that kind of way.
01:57:39.720 The battles and the wars and the campaigns,
01:57:45.660 which is ultimately the reason that we think of him
01:57:48.440 as a sort of conqueror,
01:57:50.160 actually are not the most important things,
01:57:52.520 ultimately, about Napoleon.
01:57:54.720 What he did was to expand the Enlightenment
01:57:58.720 the Enlightenment into Prussia and Poland and Italy and so on. And the Code Napoleon,
01:58:06.500 for example, was still in effect in the Rhineland in 1900. And so, yes, I think one sees his
01:58:16.860 educational reforms, the Lyce, the Sorbonne and so on, the people still crossing the bridges
01:58:23.300 that he built over the Seine,
01:58:26.240 I think these are the sort of blocks of granite
01:58:30.340 that have survived of Napoleon's legacy.
01:58:32.540 Because it's very interesting,
01:58:34.180 because when we were talking,
01:58:36.040 when I was taught about Napoleon,
01:58:40.120 from the way that I was taught,
01:58:41.960 it was like, well, you know, he had his moment,
01:58:44.760 but then it all ended in failure.
01:58:46.600 But reading your book, doing the research for the interview,
01:58:50.400 I mean, this was a man who changed history,
01:58:52.860 particularly European history. And therefore can't be seen as a proto-Hitler figure.
01:58:58.560 You know, it's completely ridiculous. I think largely that was because a lot of the British
01:59:03.280 historians of the previous generation had grown up during the Second World War and were pretty
01:59:11.500 obsessed with Hitler and wanted to sort of look back in history and try and find Hitler equivalents.
01:59:17.900 Napoleon was emphatically not one of them. Well, I actually came here thinking
01:59:22.780 that you might have a grudging admiration,
01:59:25.600 but I don't think it's that grudging in your case.
01:59:27.540 I do think you respect Napoleon.
01:59:28.980 I do, but unfortunately with this Napoleon and his Marshalls book,
01:59:34.680 I have seen a side of him which is the micromanager,
01:59:41.220 the control freak, the person who denounces his Marshalls.
01:59:46.660 He doesn't show...
01:59:49.040 Ten years ago when I wrote my Napoleon biography,
01:59:52.120 I thought of his compartmentalization of his brain as being one of the best things about him.
02:00:00.380 But now I actually see, especially as I've been able to read all of the letters that have been published by the Fondation Napoleon that weren't there for my original book,
02:00:11.180 I now see a much more nuanced but sort of negative side of him
02:00:17.280 where he wasn't good at inspiring and leading his top team.
02:00:23.360 He was very, very good all the time, right to the end.
02:00:25.900 You remember, the men were willing to march on Paris in 1814.
02:00:30.600 But when it came to his top team,
02:00:33.400 he wasn't very good at mobilising his left talents.
02:00:37.680 Lord Andrew Roberts, what a pleasure it's been to have you back.
02:00:40.380 I hope everybody gets Napoleon and his Marshalls victory, rivalry and betrayal.
02:00:44.580 Great title.
02:00:45.640 We're going to head over to triggerpod.co.uk where our supporters are going to ask you
02:00:50.020 a few of their questions.
02:00:51.780 Thank you again for coming on.
02:00:53.280 Thank you so much.
02:00:54.100 I really enjoyed it, Constantine and Francis.
02:00:59.600 France seems to have difficulty maintaining any form of democratic government for a long
02:01:03.720 time.
02:01:04.420 Are they due for another change in their form of government in light of the rise of populist
02:01:09.380 dissent?
02:01:10.380 We'll be right back.