TRIGGERnometry - MURDER TRIAL JUDGE： Why Normal People Do Evil Things

00:00:00.640 Most of the defendants will be 25 or under.

00:00:05.720 And once I say that, you will see immediately what's been happening in our society.

00:00:13.020 Somewhere along the line, an awful lot of people are going to walk out of prison

00:00:20.480 who have spent decades, perhaps as long as they had lived out in the community, in prison.

00:00:29.240 If we think they are going to walk out and fit seamlessly back into society,

00:00:37.320 we're living in a cloud cuckoo land.

00:00:40.260 But you want to know what we achieve.

00:00:42.720 If I'm the man on the street and I believe that the purpose of the criminal justice system

00:00:47.480 is to administer punishment, and we as a society do seem to agree with that,

00:00:52.080 we punish people for committing serious crimes by putting them in prison.

00:00:55.780 What is the point of that? Why do we do that?

00:00:59.240 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:10.540 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:11.720 I'm Constantine Kissinger.

00:01:12.820 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:17.540 Our terrific guest today, I'm pleased to say, is a recently retired Old Bailey judge

00:01:22.040 and the author of a recent book called Unlawful Killings.

00:01:25.220 Wendy Joseph Casey, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:27.660 Thank you for having me.

00:01:28.920 Oh, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show.

00:01:30.820 I swallowed your book basically in an evening.

00:01:33.980 It was that good.

00:01:35.200 And we'll talk more about everything to do with that.

00:01:37.500 But before we do, tell everybody watching and listening, who are you?

00:01:41.040 How are you, where you are?

00:01:41.860 What has been the journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:01:46.140 Well, it's quite a long journey.

00:01:47.740 Yeah.

00:01:47.980 So that's quite a big question.

00:01:49.360 I started off as an ordinary school kid down in Cardiff, which is in Wales, capital of Wales.

00:01:59.020 I wanted to be a writer.

00:02:02.000 That's what I wanted to do.

00:02:03.780 I went off to university to read English.

00:02:07.560 Halfway through, my mum said to me,

00:02:09.460 how exactly do you reckon you're going to make a living out of that?

00:02:14.680 So we thought it through together and I changed to law.

00:02:20.140 And so I went to the bar and did that for 32 years,

00:02:26.300 10 of which as a QC, Queen's Council, because we had a queen then.

00:02:31.660 Then I decided for various reasons, I just didn't want to do that anymore and applied to sit as a judge.

00:02:40.980 I sat as an ordinary Crown Court judge dealing with jury trials for four and a half years

00:02:48.440 and then was moved to the Old Bailey, where I was for the next 10 years.

00:02:53.840 And now you have become a writer as you'd hope.

00:02:56.560 And at the age of 70, I came right back full circle to where I was

00:03:02.920 when I first decided I was going to be a writer at the age of seven.

00:03:07.280 And what's fascinating is judges generally, particularly people at the Old Bailey,

00:03:12.340 which is the central criminal core, I should explain for people in this country,

00:03:16.300 which tries the most serious cases, mostly murder and some others,

00:03:21.680 don't tend to write books.

00:03:23.520 So in fact, they don't write books and you only retired about a year and a bit ago

00:03:28.720 and you've written this book.

00:03:29.820 So it's a fascinating look at how decisions are made

00:03:33.040 and the sort of crimes that are being committed and the sort of crimes that people deal with.

00:03:37.160 One of the most interesting things in the book is you're obviously dealing with an issue

00:03:42.660 that's highly topical at the moment, which is knife crime.

00:03:45.940 And you wrestle with, you know, the crimes, but also how we've ended up in the position that we've ended up.

00:03:54.600 Now, with your experience, you mentioned you're 17, you did that for a long time.

00:03:59.040 How has the landscape of crime changed in this country, the sorts of cases you would see before you?

00:04:05.540 Have we always had as much knife crime as we seem to have now?

00:04:09.000 Has that grown in recent years?

00:04:10.620 What is the situation?

00:04:11.640 I don't know the statistics, but I do know my experience.

00:04:17.100 So I would have begun going to the Old Bailey as a barrister when I first came to the bar,

00:04:24.180 as a baby barrister if I was lucky enough to be briefed as junior counsel sitting behind a QC in a big case.

00:04:32.080 And if you walked along the corridors of the Old Bailey, where there are 18 courts,

00:04:40.800 you would have seen a few murders, quite a few murders,

00:04:45.180 but that have been court after court with armed robberies, with rapes, with cases of a non-fatal nature.

00:04:56.260 You don't see that so much at the Old Bailey anymore.

00:04:59.720 Frankly, you barely see it at all.

00:05:02.720 Nearly every courtroom for years now will have been occupied with murders or a bit of terrorism.

00:05:14.260 There are other things, but essentially that's what goes on there.

00:05:19.420 Not necessarily murders.

00:05:21.400 Let me replace that with the word homicides, because there are different ways of killing people.

00:05:25.920 But that's what we do.

00:05:27.820 And even the lowest level homicides, even, and I don't want to downplay the gravity of them,

00:05:33.180 but even something as, how do I put it, without making it sound as if it is less serious,

00:05:42.540 even something like death by careless driving.

00:05:45.640 You've got a death there.

00:05:48.140 That's what we do there.

00:05:48.760 That's what we do there.

00:05:51.460 But most of the courtrooms will be dealing with death using weapons,

00:05:57.880 and most of the weapons will be knives,

00:06:02.140 and most of the defendants will be 25 or under.

00:06:07.120 And once I say that, you will see immediately what's been happening in our society.

00:06:15.240 The rise of gangs, the links between gangs and drugs,

00:06:23.500 gangs and violence, inter-gang violence.

00:06:28.700 So there has been, to my mind, and in my experience, a sea change.

00:06:39.100 Now, I know that people will produce statistics that throw different angles on that,

00:06:45.680 but I think it is clear there has been a change over the last 45 years since I became a barrister.

00:06:55.520 And when did you start noticing this change, Wendy?

00:06:59.300 When did the change start occurring for you?

00:07:02.700 Well, I have certainly seen it since I've been a judge in 2007,

00:07:11.780 but I think you could probably go back a decade before that to begin to see it.

00:07:17.520 The roots must have been there before that.

00:07:20.800 They must have been, because these things don't drop down out of a clear blue sky.

00:07:26.760 But the carrying of knives has become,

00:07:32.360 I hesitate to use the word, but I will,

00:07:37.240 endemic in some parts of our society.

00:07:42.000 And it is not limited to those who belong to gangs.

00:07:46.100 But if those who belong to gangs are carrying knives and creating a violent situation for others to be living in,

00:07:56.580 then the risk of the others carrying knives in response is enormously increased.

00:08:03.740 And when you saw these people who were carrying knives and were accused of murder,

00:08:10.580 did they, were there commonalities between them?

00:08:13.280 Did they have, did they share certain characteristics?

00:08:16.180 We've already mentioned the age thing, 25 and under.

00:08:18.780 What type of people were they?

00:08:24.840 Well, I don't want to sound like a bleeding heart,

00:08:28.340 but I guess people that we as a society didn't sort out, look after, care enough about, recognize their problems.

00:08:43.800 There are bad people.

00:08:46.140 There's no two ways about it.

00:08:48.060 There are.

00:08:48.980 There are wicked people.

00:08:51.900 But if you ask me how many times I've seen someone who, in my judgment, was truly wicked,

00:09:00.380 not what they did was wicked, but that they themselves were wicked,

00:09:05.520 in the dock, I could count them over nearly half a century on the fingers of my hands.

00:09:13.160 If you ask me how many people have done really wicked things, the answer is, I've seen thousands.

00:09:23.300 So the question that maybe we should be asking ourselves is,

00:09:29.160 why people who are not essentially bad do bad things,

00:09:35.600 and why they're doing it at the age of 16, 17, 19, 21.

00:09:43.740 And they, certainly based on your experience,

00:09:47.340 they were not doing it as much 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago.

00:09:51.960 So, what do you think it is that's causing this increase?

00:10:01.200 We have become...

00:10:05.780 This may be entirely wrong,

00:10:09.600 but my sense is we've become very short-termist.

00:10:13.580 At least we've allowed our children to grow up with a sense of being very short-termist.

00:10:19.920 Now, if I put that in the starkest terms,

00:10:23.700 you don't see many gang members in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s.

00:10:32.240 And you laugh because it is self-evident that you don't.

00:10:38.100 But what that means is,

00:10:39.740 when youngsters devote themselves to that way of life,

00:10:44.340 they're not looking into a future.

00:10:46.760 They're not looking into a long-term future.

00:10:49.920 A lot of them die.

00:10:52.760 A lot of them are seriously harmed.

00:10:55.960 A lot of them die from injuries.

00:10:59.840 A lot of them die from other things associated with the lifestyle,

00:11:04.520 particularly if they become addicted to drugs.

00:11:07.860 A lot of them end up with seriously miserable lives in their mid-30s.

00:11:18.080 Once you're part of a gang,

00:11:20.440 it's very difficult to extricate yourself and lead a different sort of life.

00:11:26.780 Once you've been to prison and have a criminal record,

00:11:30.040 put that the other way around,

00:11:32.140 once you've got a criminal record,

00:11:34.180 whether or not you've been to prison,

00:11:36.240 it's extraordinarily difficult to work your way back into society again.

00:11:40.980 And so we've got a whole bunch of youngsters

00:11:45.440 who are not, as school kids,

00:11:50.440 saying, where am I going with my life?

00:11:54.160 How am I going to have a family, have a career?

00:11:58.600 And if you're doing something quite different.

00:12:03.020 And if you see the sorts of backgrounds and lives that they're living,

00:12:10.160 it's not that surprising.

00:12:13.760 It's interesting you say that,

00:12:15.080 and I'm very keen to explore that.

00:12:17.660 Because I suppose you mentioned that we have failed people as a society,

00:12:21.920 which I'm sure there are elements of that that are true.

00:12:23.960 But we've had many people on the show who've talked about

00:12:27.560 the importance of fathers, for example, and family structure.

00:12:31.640 I was just going to mention that.

00:12:32.680 I guess the obvious question is,

00:12:34.040 of the people that you've seen before you as a judge

00:12:37.920 who've committed a serious crime of that kind,

00:12:41.240 how many of them had an active and present father in the family as a percentage?

00:12:46.540 Well, of the youngsters,

00:12:51.700 nothing like what the average,

00:13:00.300 if you went across the whole population, would be.

00:13:03.000 I couldn't put a number on it,

00:13:04.720 and I couldn't put a percentage on it,

00:13:06.480 but far fewer than would be the average.

00:13:13.300 I want to be very careful here,

00:13:16.120 because I don't want to make it sound as if,

00:13:19.760 because I'm not focusing on a particular ethnic or religious

00:13:27.880 or any other sector.

00:13:30.900 So I think it would be fairer to say

00:13:33.580 almost every child that you see in the dark

00:13:37.580 comes from a difficult home in some way,

00:13:42.480 which is not to say it isn't a loving home,

00:13:46.500 but a home where either there's an absent father

00:13:50.000 or there's illness

00:13:53.700 or there's abuse,

00:13:57.840 either sexual or violent,

00:14:00.820 or there's a mum trying to support a whole load of kids

00:14:07.400 at her wits' ends

00:14:09.040 and so not able,

00:14:10.580 just not able to do that

00:14:12.940 and be in the house.

00:14:16.420 A whole variety of different problems.

00:14:21.000 If I tell you that

00:14:22.300 around 50%,

00:14:25.640 over 50%

00:14:27.020 of people,

00:14:28.740 not just youngsters,

00:14:29.980 not just those charged with murder,

00:14:31.520 but of all people in prison

00:14:34.960 are what you might call

00:14:37.340 functionally illiterate

00:14:38.920 or have a reading age

00:14:40.820 of a primary school child

00:14:43.920 and not a child at the end

00:14:45.940 of their primary school education,

00:14:49.040 to me that is,

00:14:51.020 it cannot be coincidence.

00:14:54.240 It means we've got a whole section of society

00:14:58.420 that somehow

00:15:00.980 have not,

00:15:04.340 have been,

00:15:06.060 I don't want to say excluded

00:15:09.220 because nothing's been done

00:15:10.720 to positively exclude them

00:15:12.740 unless they have been excluded from school,

00:15:15.720 but we haven't taken the care

00:15:18.340 to include them.

00:15:21.280 And you see the result.

00:15:23.580 Now, that's only an example

00:15:26.200 of one thing.

00:15:27.980 So to go back to the question

00:15:29.340 that you're asking,

00:15:31.040 why are kids carrying knives?

00:15:36.960 What are the problems

00:15:38.060 in their backgrounds?

00:15:40.400 Yes, an absent parent

00:15:42.760 is a profound problem.

00:15:47.180 You see young kids

00:15:50.420 who are absolutely well behaved

00:15:54.320 till about the age of 11, 12,

00:15:59.340 and then the absence

00:16:01.600 of a male figure in the family

00:16:03.440 can, certainly doesn't always,

00:16:07.760 but can lead a child

00:16:09.840 to start to look for other links,

00:16:13.020 approval from older men,

00:16:16.860 and they are absolute prey

00:16:20.580 to being drawn into gangs.

00:16:25.580 So it's a problem.

00:16:27.420 I think this is a point

00:16:28.640 that doesn't get spoken about enough.

00:16:30.340 I used to teach

00:16:31.320 in a very deprived part

00:16:33.180 of East London,

00:16:33.820 and I saw some of the children

00:16:36.360 because I was a primary school teacher

00:16:38.580 at the time.

00:16:39.080 I was teaching year six,

00:16:40.300 which is 11-year-olds.

00:16:42.240 And I knew the ones

00:16:43.580 that were going to go into

00:16:44.420 that were at the risk of gangs

00:16:47.340 because many of them

00:16:48.260 were vulnerable.

00:16:49.760 And these gangs prey

00:16:51.780 on the weak

00:16:52.620 and the vulnerable.

00:16:53.660 And I don't think

00:16:54.100 that gets spoken about enough.

00:16:55.560 They target them specifically.

00:16:57.260 Yeah, it's true.

00:17:00.640 And the rise

00:17:02.300 in what is called

00:17:03.640 modern slavery

00:17:05.080 and the rise

00:17:08.740 in the number of children

00:17:10.520 being used

00:17:13.140 on county lines,

00:17:15.380 quite young children,

00:17:17.300 who are...

00:17:19.300 Whitney, I'm so sorry to interrupt.

00:17:20.480 Could you tell our audience

00:17:21.600 what county lines are?

00:17:23.240 Oh, county lines.

00:17:23.740 Okay, lines refer to drugs lines.

00:17:29.360 So when you're selling drugs,

00:17:31.060 not when you're selling drugs,

00:17:32.460 when drugs are being sold,

00:17:35.160 phones are used

00:17:37.680 as a method of communication,

00:17:40.200 advertising,

00:17:41.760 identifying cases

00:17:43.260 to exchange drugs.

00:17:45.560 Usually the phone that is used

00:17:47.360 is called a dirty phone

00:17:49.100 in the sense

00:17:49.720 it will be unidentifiable

00:17:51.600 in various ways

00:17:52.800 to the authorities.

00:17:53.740 It began in London,

00:17:56.280 but increasingly

00:17:57.820 drugs gangs

00:17:59.740 realised

00:18:00.700 that they could

00:18:01.440 sell their drugs

00:18:02.660 out of London,

00:18:04.700 out in the counties.

00:18:06.760 And so they would put

00:18:08.080 drugs lines

00:18:09.140 out in the counties.

00:18:11.860 The drugs lines

00:18:13.080 would be

00:18:14.060 supported

00:18:16.060 by people

00:18:17.120 who took drugs

00:18:18.780 down there,

00:18:20.380 maybe to a safe house,

00:18:23.180 may or may or may not

00:18:24.740 be the ones

00:18:25.300 who were selling them,

00:18:26.380 but their job

00:18:27.520 would be to take

00:18:28.260 drugs down there

00:18:29.340 to bring the money

00:18:30.360 back to account

00:18:31.680 for the money.

00:18:33.880 And increasingly

00:18:35.300 vulnerable children.

00:18:39.120 By children,

00:18:40.640 I'm using the term

00:18:41.920 in the way we would

00:18:43.080 use it in the courtroom,

00:18:44.260 which is under 18,

00:18:46.140 children and young people.

00:18:50.140 Do it.

00:18:51.800 And I was going to say

00:18:52.760 are used.

00:18:53.780 I didn't use that expression.

00:18:55.420 I'll say

00:18:56.420 do it

00:18:57.760 because

00:18:58.960 we might think

00:19:01.260 they're being used,

00:19:02.920 they are in fact

00:19:04.120 being used,

00:19:05.560 but an awful lot of kids

00:19:07.780 don't recognise

00:19:09.800 that they are being used.

00:19:12.320 They think

00:19:12.940 they are

00:19:13.660 big men.

00:19:15.180 They think

00:19:15.580 they are

00:19:16.060 part of the gang.

00:19:17.900 They think

00:19:18.420 they're making choices.

00:19:20.240 Well,

00:19:20.360 they are making choices,

00:19:21.940 but they are not

00:19:23.220 informed choices

00:19:25.040 and the reason

00:19:26.340 they're not able

00:19:27.000 to make informed choices

00:19:28.420 is because

00:19:29.300 they are vulnerable

00:19:30.720 and they are targeted

00:19:32.640 because they're vulnerable.

00:19:34.500 And they're groomed

00:19:35.660 as well,

00:19:36.060 aren't they?

00:19:37.340 That's the way

00:19:38.140 I see it.

00:19:38.860 I mean,

00:19:39.260 everything I'm saying,

00:19:40.440 guys,

00:19:40.840 everything I'm saying

00:19:41.960 is only

00:19:43.180 how I see it.

00:19:44.680 You shouldn't think

00:19:45.340 I've got it

00:19:45.860 right necessarily,

00:19:47.680 but this is how

00:19:48.860 it looks to me.

00:19:50.700 No,

00:19:50.880 that's why you're here

00:19:51.580 for your opinion.

00:19:52.780 Yeah.

00:19:53.160 And Wendy,

00:19:54.120 so how do we go

00:19:55.260 from

00:19:56.100 boys,

00:19:58.620 mainly boys

00:19:59.360 that I taught

00:20:00.360 who were 10,

00:20:00.900 11 years old

00:20:01.740 to being

00:20:02.820 in the dock

00:20:04.160 at the Old Bailey

00:20:05.760 with a murder charge

00:20:07.460 at the age

00:20:09.060 of 18,

00:20:10.380 19,

00:20:10.860 20,

00:20:11.440 whatever it may be?

00:20:12.320 16,

00:20:13.000 17,

00:20:13.580 18.

00:20:14.180 Yeah,

00:20:14.480 16,

00:20:14.920 17,

00:20:15.260 18.

00:20:15.440 15,

00:20:16.020 I see them.

00:20:16.780 I've seen them

00:20:17.340 at 14.

00:20:20.680 How do you go?

00:20:22.100 It's as easy

00:20:25.320 as pushing a knife

00:20:27.620 into a body.

00:20:29.160 I mean,

00:20:29.820 it's as easy as that.

00:20:31.780 If you don't carry a knife,

00:20:33.420 you can't stab someone.

00:20:35.120 If you carry a knife,

00:20:37.380 there is

00:20:38.060 a real risk

00:20:41.140 that the circumstances

00:20:42.680 that you find yourself in

00:20:44.720 will lead you

00:20:45.980 to using it

00:20:47.140 or

00:20:48.160 that the circumstances

00:20:49.700 in which you find yourself

00:20:51.260 will lead someone

00:20:52.420 you are with

00:20:53.640 to using it.

00:20:56.700 And

00:20:57.260 if you

00:20:58.980 have got a knife

00:21:00.680 in your hand,

00:21:03.260 the only

00:21:04.340 difficult thing

00:21:06.020 about killing someone

00:21:07.780 is getting the blade

00:21:09.740 through the skin.

00:21:11.760 Once you get

00:21:12.620 through the skin,

00:21:13.980 there's nothing

00:21:15.080 to stop it.

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00:21:42.780 That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N

00:21:44.980 dot C-A.

00:21:47.680 I was listening

00:21:50.060 to an interview

00:21:51.100 with you

00:21:52.040 on a podcast.

00:21:52.940 I can't remember

00:21:53.320 the name of the podcast now

00:21:54.380 but you made a very

00:21:55.120 profound point

00:21:56.080 and you told the story

00:21:57.460 of a young man

00:22:00.240 who deliberately

00:22:01.180 ran over

00:22:02.140 another man

00:22:04.080 and killed him

00:22:05.800 and the family.

00:22:08.100 Could you tell that story

00:22:09.360 for our viewers

00:22:10.260 and listeners?

00:22:11.440 Because I feel

00:22:12.320 it's actually

00:22:13.100 very instructive

00:22:14.360 as to the importance

00:22:16.020 of family

00:22:16.680 and how this man

00:22:17.780 ended up

00:22:18.520 in this particular

00:22:19.880 situation.

00:22:22.140 Well,

00:22:22.980 it has to be said

00:22:24.740 that was a

00:22:25.700 peculiarly

00:22:26.960 horrible case.

00:22:30.900 The man

00:22:32.840 who drove

00:22:33.580 the victim

00:22:34.320 clearly was found

00:22:37.960 by the jury

00:22:38.540 to have done it

00:22:39.200 deliberately.

00:22:39.700 but what he

00:22:42.240 couldn't have

00:22:43.040 planned

00:22:43.480 was trapping him

00:22:45.680 underneath the car.

00:22:47.280 He couldn't have

00:22:48.040 envisaged that

00:22:48.940 happening.

00:22:49.460 He couldn't have

00:22:49.980 known that it

00:22:50.680 would happen.

00:22:51.500 It probably never

00:22:52.340 crossed his mind

00:22:53.200 that it could happen.

00:22:55.140 But it having

00:22:56.460 happened,

00:22:57.320 he then drove

00:22:58.240 for nearly a mile

00:22:59.420 with the man

00:23:01.780 trapped under

00:23:02.500 his car.

00:23:03.560 and by the

00:23:05.300 time he

00:23:05.900 stopped

00:23:06.460 there wasn't

00:23:07.440 a lot of

00:23:08.020 man under

00:23:08.660 car left

00:23:09.440 but there was

00:23:10.060 quite a lot

00:23:10.960 of man

00:23:11.500 up the road.

00:23:15.320 And so

00:23:17.160 from the family's

00:23:18.220 point of view

00:23:19.020 it's very hard

00:23:20.360 to think of

00:23:21.200 anything

00:23:22.560 more painful

00:23:23.920 to come to

00:23:24.780 terms with.

00:23:25.860 This would have

00:23:26.520 been a slow

00:23:28.440 death

00:23:28.860 because he

00:23:30.200 could have

00:23:30.600 be heard

00:23:31.880 screaming

00:23:33.000 which is why

00:23:35.060 people

00:23:36.140 turn their

00:23:37.360 cars to

00:23:38.000 follow.

00:23:40.520 It must have

00:23:41.980 been

00:23:42.440 peculiarly

00:23:43.800 painful

00:23:44.340 and drawn

00:23:45.780 out.

00:23:46.620 So if you

00:23:47.300 want an

00:23:47.720 example of

00:23:48.520 how a

00:23:49.760 family facing

00:23:50.980 the worst

00:23:51.920 sort of

00:23:52.420 crisis

00:23:53.060 deals with

00:23:55.080 it

00:23:55.320 that would

00:23:56.720 be quite

00:23:57.120 a good

00:23:57.520 case to

00:23:58.260 take.

00:23:59.140 It has

00:23:59.860 to be said

00:24:00.480 the degree

00:24:01.840 of criminality

00:24:02.760 is about

00:24:05.680 as serious

00:24:06.380 as you

00:24:06.840 can envisage

00:24:07.780 but in

00:24:08.660 terms of

00:24:09.380 the way

00:24:09.700 the law

00:24:10.560 looks at

00:24:11.320 it it

00:24:12.420 would not

00:24:12.920 merit the

00:24:13.640 same sort

00:24:14.360 of sentence

00:24:15.220 as if

00:24:16.540 he'd been

00:24:18.000 shot by

00:24:19.260 the defendant

00:24:19.880 and you

00:24:21.600 look surprised.

00:24:23.040 I will

00:24:23.200 explain that

00:24:25.300 in just a

00:24:25.840 moment the

00:24:26.380 way in which

00:24:27.420 the law

00:24:27.880 works and

00:24:28.480 the way in

00:24:28.880 which sentencing

00:24:29.680 for murder

00:24:30.260 cases

00:24:30.780 works.

00:24:31.960 Don't let

00:24:32.260 me forget

00:24:32.680 come back

00:24:33.440 to it

00:24:33.680 I'll explain

00:24:34.280 it but

00:24:35.100 from the

00:24:35.520 family's

00:24:36.080 point of

00:24:36.560 view

00:24:36.820 it's

00:24:37.760 I mean

00:24:39.560 a young

00:24:40.080 man and

00:24:41.260 so you've

00:24:41.720 got parents

00:24:43.100 you've got

00:24:43.900 siblings I

00:24:45.220 can't remember

00:24:45.860 whether in that

00:24:46.520 case there

00:24:47.000 were grandparents

00:24:47.600 but it's

00:24:48.360 quite likely

00:24:49.060 there were

00:24:49.760 friends

00:24:51.360 the sort

00:24:52.540 the sort

00:24:52.560 of thing

00:24:53.260 that is

00:24:54.220 never

00:24:55.840 going to

00:24:56.840 fade

00:24:57.480 in their

00:24:58.360 minds

00:24:59.000 and judges

00:24:59.800 have no

00:25:00.360 power

00:25:01.200 to

00:25:01.960 you know

00:25:03.020 it's what I

00:25:03.740 always say

00:25:04.140 you can't

00:25:04.640 undead

00:25:05.460 a dead

00:25:06.000 body

00:25:06.460 judges

00:25:07.340 can do

00:25:07.920 certain

00:25:08.360 things

00:25:08.900 they can

00:25:09.440 punish

00:25:10.700 they can

00:25:11.680 try

00:25:12.360 in some

00:25:13.240 cases

00:25:13.760 to

00:25:14.660 rehabilitate

00:25:16.160 they can

00:25:17.920 try

00:25:19.220 and make

00:25:19.820 sure

00:25:20.180 that things

00:25:20.740 don't

00:25:21.100 happen

00:25:21.440 again

00:25:21.920 but what

00:25:23.140 they

00:25:23.400 can't

00:25:24.540 do

00:25:24.880 is

00:25:25.600 reverse

00:25:26.240 what's

00:25:26.660 happened

00:25:27.040 which is

00:25:28.220 bringing us

00:25:29.340 right back

00:25:29.840 to where

00:25:30.220 we were

00:25:30.680 before

00:25:31.260 which is

00:25:32.060 to say

00:25:32.540 the courtroom

00:25:33.540 isn't

00:25:34.280 where we

00:25:34.740 should be

00:25:35.080 looking to

00:25:35.640 stop crime

00:25:36.340 happening

00:25:36.800 the courtroom

00:25:38.180 can only

00:25:39.120 deal with

00:25:39.760 a wrong

00:25:40.280 that has

00:25:41.320 happened

00:25:41.760 and you

00:25:42.780 can't

00:25:43.620 undo

00:25:44.380 what's

00:25:45.020 happened

00:25:45.340 certainly

00:25:45.980 not when

00:25:46.460 it involves

00:25:47.140 physical

00:25:48.020 hurt

00:25:48.480 or death

00:25:49.340 to stop

00:25:50.760 it happening

00:25:51.300 you've got

00:25:52.020 to go

00:25:52.360 way back

00:25:53.560 into schools

00:25:54.640 into family

00:25:55.840 homes

00:25:56.420 into the

00:25:57.460 problems

00:25:58.180 of society

00:25:59.400 agreed

00:26:00.420 completely

00:26:01.260 and yet

00:26:02.480 we do

00:26:03.280 have

00:26:03.580 court

00:26:04.040 so

00:26:05.560 I think

00:26:06.540 it raises

00:26:06.920 a fundamental

00:26:07.580 question

00:26:08.360 Wendy

00:26:09.460 because

00:26:09.900 I know

00:26:11.020 having met

00:26:11.720 some of

00:26:12.100 the other

00:26:12.380 judges

00:26:12.740 I was there

00:26:13.860 for an

00:26:14.440 event

00:26:14.700 a lot

00:26:16.940 of you

00:26:17.180 seem

00:26:17.460 very soft

00:26:18.080 and cuddly

00:26:18.560 but there's

00:26:18.940 a core

00:26:19.260 of steel

00:26:19.720 to all

00:26:20.080 of you

00:26:20.420 and I

00:26:22.140 suppose

00:26:22.340 the question

00:26:22.820 that it

00:26:23.120 raises

00:26:23.400 is

00:26:23.800 what is

00:26:25.380 the purpose

00:26:26.100 of a

00:26:26.500 courtroom

00:26:26.860 and what

00:26:27.440 is the

00:26:27.760 purpose

00:26:28.060 of the

00:26:28.360 criminal

00:26:28.660 justice

00:26:29.060 system

00:26:29.480 what is

00:26:29.880 it for

00:26:30.420 exactly

00:26:31.040 well

00:26:33.040 if you

00:26:35.240 ask

00:26:35.560 the man

00:26:36.600 in the

00:26:36.920 street

00:26:37.220 what it's

00:26:38.180 for

00:26:38.600 he'd

00:26:39.980 probably

00:26:40.380 say

00:26:41.000 something

00:26:41.800 like

00:26:43.280 to punish

00:26:45.060 people

00:26:45.460 who've

00:26:45.780 done

00:26:46.000 wrong

00:26:46.420 I

00:26:48.680 wonder

00:26:50.160 and this

00:26:51.720 is something

00:26:52.120 I explore

00:26:53.280 in my

00:26:53.760 new book

00:26:54.540 I wonder

00:26:56.780 if in fact

00:26:57.740 that's not

00:26:58.540 quite the

00:26:59.260 right analysis

00:27:00.060 I wonder

00:27:02.040 if what we

00:27:02.940 should be

00:27:03.500 saying

00:27:03.940 is the

00:27:05.580 purpose of

00:27:06.140 the criminal

00:27:06.560 law

00:27:07.020 is to

00:27:08.280 lay out

00:27:08.900 a system

00:27:09.660 that means

00:27:11.360 society

00:27:12.880 can function

00:27:14.400 safely

00:27:15.900 and

00:27:17.180 confidently

00:27:18.420 in other

00:27:19.860 words

00:27:20.280 the people

00:27:21.160 who are

00:27:21.520 being

00:27:21.800 protected

00:27:22.440 by the

00:27:23.020 criminal

00:27:23.360 law

00:27:23.860 are not

00:27:25.200 individual

00:27:26.760 sufferers

00:27:27.800 individual

00:27:29.460 victims

00:27:30.200 they are

00:27:31.900 all of

00:27:32.940 us

00:27:33.280 once you

00:27:35.580 say that

00:27:36.440 things make

00:27:37.860 a lot

00:27:38.160 more sense

00:27:39.080 it would

00:27:40.240 explain

00:27:41.060 why

00:27:42.060 the

00:27:43.200 prosecution

00:27:43.940 in a

00:27:44.980 criminal

00:27:45.240 court

00:27:45.780 is brought

00:27:46.700 not

00:27:47.500 by the

00:27:48.120 victim

00:27:48.500 but

00:27:49.660 by

00:27:50.180 the

00:27:51.040 crown

00:27:51.640 the

00:27:52.760 people

00:27:53.500 in the

00:27:54.600 name

00:27:54.940 of

00:27:55.260 the

00:27:55.760 people

00:27:56.200 why

00:27:56.920 we

00:27:57.040 have

00:27:57.180 the

00:27:57.360 crown

00:27:57.680 prosecution

00:27:58.320 service

00:27:58.960 where

00:27:59.520 we

00:27:59.700 have

00:27:59.920 a

00:28:00.080 barrister

00:28:00.540 who

00:28:00.800 is

00:28:01.020 on

00:28:01.740 his

00:28:01.960 feet

00:28:02.220 or

00:28:02.600 a

00:28:02.800 solicitor

00:28:03.200 on

00:28:03.540 his

00:28:03.780 feet

00:28:04.120 representing

00:28:05.120 the

00:28:05.720 crown

00:28:06.280 that

00:28:06.840 is

00:28:07.020 the

00:28:07.200 prosecution

00:28:07.800 it

00:28:09.540 would

00:28:09.720 also

00:28:10.260 explain

00:28:11.060 why

00:28:12.080 the

00:28:12.540 criminal

00:28:12.900 courts

00:28:13.420 are

00:28:13.580 the

00:28:13.700 one

00:28:14.100 set

00:28:14.480 of

00:28:14.680 courts

00:28:15.180 where

00:28:16.180 the

00:28:16.940 judge

00:28:17.580 doesn't

00:28:18.400 make

00:28:18.820 the

00:28:19.340 vital

00:28:19.860 decision

00:28:20.420 the

00:28:21.340 vital

00:28:21.860 decision

00:28:22.440 guilty

00:28:23.140 or

00:28:23.380 not

00:28:23.600 guilty

00:28:23.980 is

00:28:24.580 made

00:28:24.940 by

00:28:25.440 the

00:28:26.880 people

00:28:27.320 or

00:28:28.120 those

00:28:28.700 who

00:28:29.080 represent

00:28:29.800 the

00:28:30.880 people

00:28:31.340 so

00:28:32.680 if you

00:28:33.600 start

00:28:34.020 analysing

00:28:34.640 it in

00:28:34.920 that

00:28:35.120 way

00:28:35.480 the

00:28:36.680 whole

00:28:37.000 thing

00:28:37.320 begins

00:28:38.220 to make

00:28:38.980 a lot

00:28:39.280 more

00:28:39.560 sense

00:28:40.140 you're

00:28:42.140 asking

00:28:42.580 then

00:28:43.020 what

00:28:43.600 the

00:28:44.260 court

00:28:44.720 can

00:28:45.000 do

00:28:45.380 well

00:28:46.520 I

00:28:47.640 guess

00:28:48.920 I'm

00:28:49.120 asking

00:28:49.300 something

00:28:49.620 else

00:28:49.900 actually

00:28:50.180 which

00:28:50.400 is

00:28:50.520 what

00:28:50.760 is

00:28:50.920 it

00:28:51.080 there

00:28:51.500 to

00:28:51.740 do

00:28:52.000 because

00:28:52.600 you

00:28:52.960 talk

00:28:53.200 about

00:28:53.440 punishment

00:28:53.940 I'm

00:28:54.240 sure

00:28:54.460 punishment

00:28:54.940 is

00:28:55.140 part

00:28:55.440 of

00:28:55.560 it

00:28:55.660 and

00:28:55.800 I

00:28:55.920 want

00:28:56.060 to

00:28:56.180 explore

00:28:56.480 with

00:28:56.680 you

00:28:56.860 whether

00:28:57.540 punishment

00:28:58.440 works

00:28:58.980 actually

00:28:59.460 right

00:29:00.060 but

00:29:01.580 I

00:29:02.500 think

00:29:02.780 there

00:29:03.020 are

00:29:03.180 you

00:29:03.440 mentioned

00:29:03.840 it's

00:29:04.180 about

00:29:04.380 protecting

00:29:05.000 society

00:29:05.600 and

00:29:05.780 creating

00:29:06.140 a

00:29:06.340 safer

00:29:06.620 society

00:29:07.260 that

00:29:08.560 I

00:29:08.780 think

00:29:08.940 is

00:29:09.120 where

00:29:09.380 a

00:29:09.580 lot

00:29:09.700 of

00:29:09.800 the

00:29:09.940 conversation

00:29:10.440 is

00:29:10.660 interesting

00:29:11.020 because

00:29:11.500 I

00:29:13.640 don't

00:29:14.100 even

00:29:14.460 if

00:29:14.640 punishment

00:29:15.120 doesn't

00:29:15.560 necessarily

00:29:15.940 work

00:29:16.320 some

00:29:16.580 people

00:29:16.800 might

00:29:17.100 argue

00:29:17.400 well

00:29:17.660 putting

00:29:18.240 violent

00:29:18.620 people

00:29:19.000 in

00:29:19.320 prison

00:29:19.600 and

00:29:19.800 keeping

00:29:20.060 them

00:29:20.280 there

00:29:20.520 is

00:29:20.980 making

00:29:21.240 the

00:29:21.420 rest

00:29:21.620 of

00:29:21.740 us

00:29:21.880 safer

00:29:22.120 I'm

00:29:22.600 not

00:29:22.840 I

00:29:25.000 can't

00:29:25.280 remember

00:29:25.500 the

00:29:25.660 exact

00:29:25.960 question

00:29:26.360 you

00:29:26.560 originally

00:29:27.040 asked

00:29:27.420 me

00:29:27.660 but

00:29:28.080 I'm

00:29:28.360 not

00:29:28.700 saying

00:29:29.240 that

00:29:29.540 the

00:29:29.740 court

00:29:30.300 is

00:29:30.540 there

00:29:30.860 to

00:29:31.600 do

00:29:31.780 the

00:29:31.940 things

00:29:32.220 I've

00:29:32.520 just

00:29:32.740 described

00:29:33.160 I'm

00:29:34.100 saying

00:29:34.460 the

00:29:34.700 law

00:29:35.240 is

00:29:35.920 there

00:29:36.160 that's

00:29:37.120 why

00:29:37.520 we

00:29:37.840 have

00:29:38.320 the

00:29:38.980 laws

00:29:39.440 if

00:29:41.120 you

00:29:41.280 ask

00:29:41.560 what

00:29:41.760 the

00:29:41.960 court

00:29:42.220 can

00:29:42.480 do

00:29:42.920 well

00:29:44.860 we

00:29:45.660 say

00:29:46.220 don't

00:29:46.700 we

00:29:46.980 that

00:29:48.020 jurors

00:29:48.820 are

00:29:49.180 supposed

00:29:49.620 to

00:29:50.340 acquit

00:29:51.500 the

00:29:51.820 innocent

00:29:52.320 and

00:29:53.180 convict

00:29:54.260 the

00:29:54.600 guilty

00:29:54.940 it's

00:29:57.540 not

00:29:57.700 actually

00:29:58.040 what

00:29:58.240 we

00:29:58.400 ask

00:29:58.620 them

00:29:58.780 to

00:29:58.900 do

00:29:59.140 if

00:30:00.000 you

00:30:00.100 actually

00:30:00.420 look

00:30:00.660 at

00:30:00.740 what

00:30:00.880 we

00:30:01.040 ask

00:30:01.300 a

00:30:01.480 jury

00:30:01.700 to

00:30:01.920 do

00:30:02.220 it

00:30:02.540 isn't

00:30:02.940 to

00:30:03.200 acquit

00:30:03.540 the

00:30:03.720 innocent

00:30:04.040 and

00:30:04.500 convict

00:30:04.860 the

00:30:05.020 guilty

00:30:05.320 we

00:30:06.220 ask

00:30:06.580 them

00:30:06.900 to

00:30:07.680 convict

00:30:10.180 those

00:30:10.800 they

00:30:11.180 are

00:30:11.620 sure

00:30:12.280 are

00:30:12.960 guilty

00:30:13.340 and

00:30:14.120 to

00:30:14.260 acquit

00:30:14.580 everyone

00:30:14.920 else

00:30:15.320 it's

00:30:15.900 not

00:30:16.120 the

00:30:16.360 same

00:30:16.600 thing

00:30:16.960 and

00:30:17.340 that's

00:30:17.620 something

00:30:17.880 else

00:30:18.160 I'm

00:30:18.980 exploring

00:30:19.500 in

00:30:19.860 this

00:30:20.520 new

00:30:21.360 book

00:30:21.580 that

00:30:21.740 I'm

00:30:21.940 writing

00:30:22.300 it's

00:30:22.880 a

00:30:23.080 very

00:30:23.420 different

00:30:23.800 thing

00:30:24.220 if

00:30:26.320 you

00:30:26.480 ask

00:30:26.760 what

00:30:26.960 the

00:30:27.160 judge

00:30:27.500 can

00:30:27.780 do

00:30:28.220 the

00:30:28.740 answer

00:30:29.860 is

00:30:30.240 the

00:30:30.460 judge

00:30:30.860 can't

00:30:31.600 do

00:30:32.020 what an

00:30:32.940 awful lot

00:30:34.120 of

00:30:34.820 victims

00:30:35.780 or bereaved

00:30:37.560 wanted to

00:30:38.540 do

00:30:38.820 the judge

00:30:40.760 can't

00:30:41.860 administer

00:30:44.740 vengeance

00:30:46.320 what the

00:30:49.300 judge

00:30:49.560 can

00:30:49.960 do

00:30:50.360 is

00:30:50.780 impose

00:30:51.660 a

00:30:52.280 punishment

00:30:52.780 as

00:30:53.820 laid

00:30:54.320 down

00:30:54.780 by

00:30:55.240 parliament

00:30:55.960 that

00:30:56.900 it

00:30:57.040 can

00:30:57.200 do

00:30:57.480 and

00:30:58.260 what

00:30:59.580 the

00:30:59.780 court

00:31:00.380 system

00:31:01.020 can

00:31:01.360 do

00:31:01.780 is

00:31:02.180 to

00:31:02.540 identify

00:31:03.280 those

00:31:04.060 where

00:31:05.100 guilt

00:31:05.680 has

00:31:06.140 been

00:31:06.480 proved

00:31:07.280 yes

00:31:07.880 yes

00:31:07.900 I

00:31:08.520 understand

00:31:08.840 what

00:31:09.200 I'm

00:31:09.400 asking

00:31:09.680 I

00:31:09.920 suppose

00:31:10.180 is

00:31:10.380 a

00:31:10.560 bigger

00:31:10.880 question

00:31:11.540 less

00:31:12.740 about

00:31:13.180 just

00:31:13.600 the

00:31:13.760 court

00:31:13.940 itself

00:31:14.220 and

00:31:14.360 I

00:31:14.460 appreciate

00:31:14.900 that

00:31:15.120 as

00:31:15.300 a

00:31:15.740 retired

00:31:16.200 judge

00:31:16.520 that's

00:31:16.920 your

00:31:17.040 focus

00:31:17.360 but

00:31:17.540 I'm

00:31:17.720 curious

00:31:18.040 to

00:31:18.260 think

00:31:18.480 about

00:31:18.820 if

00:31:19.680 your

00:31:19.960 job

00:31:20.300 as

00:31:20.460 a

00:31:20.620 judge

00:31:20.860 is

00:31:21.020 to

00:31:21.280 administer

00:31:21.760 punishment

00:31:22.340 on the

00:31:22.940 basis

00:31:23.200 of

00:31:23.440 laws

00:31:23.680 passed

00:31:24.020 by

00:31:24.220 parliament

00:31:24.640 on

00:31:25.100 behalf

00:31:25.360 of

00:31:25.480 the

00:31:25.580 people

00:31:25.860 what

00:31:27.120 is

00:31:27.260 the

00:31:27.400 point

00:31:27.640 of

00:31:27.780 punishment

00:31:28.140 well

00:31:29.200 first

00:31:29.560 of

00:31:29.680 all

00:31:29.780 it

00:31:29.860 isn't

00:31:30.060 only

00:31:30.300 punishment

00:31:30.800 a judge

00:31:32.300 at the

00:31:32.560 Old

00:31:32.760 Bailey

00:31:33.040 will be

00:31:33.460 primarily

00:31:34.000 interested

00:31:34.640 in

00:31:34.900 punishment

00:31:35.300 because

00:31:35.720 of

00:31:35.900 the

00:31:36.040 level

00:31:36.300 of

00:31:36.440 the

00:31:36.560 crime

00:31:36.920 being

00:31:37.260 administered

00:31:37.920 but

00:31:38.620 if

00:31:38.800 you

00:31:38.900 look

00:31:39.080 at

00:31:39.180 the

00:31:39.340 principles

00:31:39.860 of

00:31:40.240 sentencing

00:31:41.200 a

00:31:42.920 judge's

00:31:43.380 first

00:31:43.740 job

00:31:44.200 might

00:31:44.800 be

00:31:45.260 not

00:31:46.540 to

00:31:46.960 put

00:31:47.220 someone

00:31:47.660 in

00:31:47.960 prison

00:31:48.280 if

00:31:48.920 there

00:31:49.160 is

00:31:49.340 any

00:31:49.780 other

00:31:50.300 viable

00:31:51.120 option

00:31:51.860 and

00:31:52.740 viable

00:31:53.260 options

00:31:53.820 will

00:31:54.180 include

00:31:54.920 things

00:31:56.020 where

00:31:56.840 crimes

00:31:57.380 are

00:31:57.620 not

00:31:57.920 so

00:31:58.280 serious

00:31:59.040 where

00:31:59.600 there

00:31:59.860 is

00:32:00.600 no

00:32:01.200 appropriate

00:32:01.920 punishment

00:32:02.520 but

00:32:03.360 taking

00:32:03.880 away

00:32:04.200 someone's

00:32:04.780 liberty

00:32:05.140 then

00:32:06.180 they'd

00:32:06.680 be

00:32:06.820 looking

00:32:07.180 at

00:32:07.780 probation

00:32:08.720 they'd

00:32:09.340 be

00:32:09.480 looking

00:32:09.780 at

00:32:10.040 training

00:32:10.680 they'd

00:32:11.200 be

00:32:11.320 looking

00:32:11.620 at

00:32:11.860 ways

00:32:12.240 of

00:32:12.420 helping

00:32:13.360 a

00:32:14.160 defendant

00:32:14.660 it's

00:32:15.880 not

00:32:16.060 a

00:32:16.260 popular

00:32:17.480 way

00:32:17.800 of

00:32:17.940 looking

00:32:18.140 at

00:32:18.320 things

00:32:18.660 because

00:32:18.980 if

00:32:19.160 a

00:32:19.280 defendant's

00:32:19.900 been

00:32:20.080 found

00:32:20.520 guilty

00:32:21.000 they

00:32:21.900 have

00:32:22.240 done

00:32:22.560 wrong

00:32:22.980 but

00:32:23.860 it's

00:32:24.060 in

00:32:24.260 society's

00:32:25.180 interests

00:32:25.740 that

00:32:26.400 we

00:32:26.640 stop

00:32:27.700 wrong

00:32:28.480 happening

00:32:29.180 again

00:32:29.980 and

00:32:30.860 very

00:32:31.180 often

00:32:31.560 sending

00:32:32.200 someone

00:32:32.640 to

00:32:32.900 prison

00:32:33.220 is

00:32:33.760 a

00:32:33.940 sure

00:32:34.160 fire

00:32:34.460 way

00:32:34.920 of

00:32:35.600 making

00:32:35.880 sure

00:32:36.340 they

00:32:36.700 continue

00:32:37.280 to

00:32:37.560 offend

00:32:37.960 because

00:32:38.760 you

00:32:38.960 put

00:32:39.240 them

00:32:39.420 in

00:32:39.540 a

00:32:39.700 situation

00:32:40.300 where

00:32:40.720 they

00:32:40.920 are

00:32:41.220 mixing

00:32:42.340 with

00:32:42.960 and

00:32:43.520 only

00:32:44.200 with

00:32:44.740 wrongdoers

00:32:46.260 people

00:32:46.780 whose

00:32:47.120 mindsets

00:32:48.260 are

00:32:48.740 of

00:32:49.520 wrongdoing

00:32:50.280 so

00:32:51.200 a judge's

00:32:51.940 job

00:32:52.240 isn't

00:32:52.560 necessarily

00:32:53.440 and

00:32:54.520 only

00:32:55.080 to

00:32:55.340 punish

00:32:55.780 a judge

00:32:56.660 has

00:32:56.920 to

00:32:57.080 have

00:32:57.260 in

00:32:57.420 mind

00:32:57.700 a

00:32:57.860 whole

00:32:58.160 series

00:32:58.860 of

00:32:59.100 different

00:32:59.420 things

00:32:59.960 including

00:33:00.780 rehabilitation

00:33:02.840 trying to

00:33:04.640 in some

00:33:05.300 way

00:33:05.600 recompense

00:33:06.940 the

00:33:07.980 loser

00:33:08.420 there are

00:33:09.600 an awful

00:33:09.840 lot of

00:33:10.220 crimes

00:33:10.840 outside

00:33:11.500 crimes

00:33:12.120 of

00:33:12.320 violence

00:33:12.960 where

00:33:13.560 you

00:33:13.760 can

00:33:14.140 approach

00:33:16.680 putting

00:33:17.580 things

00:33:18.060 right

00:33:18.560 by the

00:33:19.340 payment

00:33:19.620 of money

00:33:20.100 you know

00:33:20.900 where there's

00:33:21.260 been a

00:33:21.520 crime of

00:33:21.980 dishonesty

00:33:22.620 there are

00:33:23.840 some

00:33:24.260 not all

00:33:24.980 crimes

00:33:25.320 of

00:33:25.480 dishonesty

00:33:26.100 but there

00:33:26.760 are some

00:33:27.360 where you

00:33:28.020 can put

00:33:28.940 it right

00:33:29.500 by making

00:33:30.460 someone

00:33:30.940 pay money

00:33:31.780 back

00:33:32.140 so a judge

00:33:32.920 has many

00:33:33.880 different

00:33:34.440 tasks

00:33:35.420 in

00:33:36.060 finding

00:33:37.800 the right

00:33:39.640 sentence

00:33:40.020 but you

00:33:40.620 want to

00:33:41.060 know

00:33:41.460 what we

00:33:43.280 achieve

00:33:43.600 and I

00:33:44.180 believe

00:33:44.660 that the

00:33:45.380 purpose

00:33:45.720 of the

00:33:46.080 criminal

00:33:46.360 justice

00:33:46.760 system

00:33:47.180 is to

00:33:47.460 administer

00:33:47.800 punishment

00:33:48.400 and we

00:33:49.680 as a

00:33:50.260 society

00:33:50.660 do seem

00:33:51.160 to agree

00:33:51.500 with that

00:33:51.760 we punish

00:33:52.160 people for

00:33:52.600 committing

00:33:52.940 serious

00:33:53.340 crimes

00:33:53.680 by putting

00:33:54.120 them in

00:33:54.420 prison

00:33:54.640 what is

00:33:55.960 the point

00:33:56.340 of that

00:33:56.680 why do

00:33:57.340 we do

00:33:57.600 that

00:33:57.860 well

00:33:58.260 a number

00:34:02.660 of different

00:34:03.100 reasons

00:34:03.660 first of

00:34:06.100 all

00:34:06.440 to ensure

00:34:09.580 that

00:34:10.700 let me

00:34:12.820 go one

00:34:13.180 step back

00:34:13.780 you don't

00:34:14.420 put people

00:34:15.040 in prison

00:34:15.520 only to

00:34:16.500 punish

00:34:16.820 you put

00:34:17.760 people in

00:34:18.340 prison

00:34:18.640 to protect

00:34:19.880 society

00:34:20.720 as well

00:34:21.260 and

00:34:22.140 and

00:34:22.480 to the

00:34:23.720 extent

00:34:24.280 that we

00:34:24.840 keep

00:34:25.120 giving

00:34:25.400 longer

00:34:25.800 and

00:34:25.980 longer

00:34:26.240 sentences

00:34:27.060 query

00:34:28.300 does

00:34:28.940 that

00:34:29.180 protect

00:34:29.640 society

00:34:30.380 well the

00:34:30.880 answer is

00:34:31.740 in the

00:34:33.080 short term

00:34:33.740 and in

00:34:34.580 the long

00:34:34.940 term if

00:34:35.360 it's a

00:34:35.620 very long

00:34:36.120 sentence

00:34:36.640 yes

00:34:37.340 because if

00:34:38.020 your door

00:34:38.360 is shut

00:34:38.820 and the

00:34:39.560 cell is

00:34:39.920 locked

00:34:40.280 you're not

00:34:41.020 out on

00:34:41.420 the street

00:34:41.840 committing

00:34:42.260 crimes

00:34:42.880 so to

00:34:44.580 that

00:34:45.020 extent

00:34:45.540 you can

00:34:46.500 protect

00:34:47.300 people

00:34:47.840 from

00:34:48.460 really

00:34:49.500 really

00:34:50.280 dangerous

00:34:51.220 defendants

00:34:52.120 that you

00:34:52.600 just think

00:34:53.600 are never

00:34:54.020 going to

00:34:54.580 stop

00:34:54.940 offending

00:34:55.560 you can

00:34:56.540 lock them

00:34:56.940 up for

00:34:57.520 life in

00:34:58.080 fact

00:34:58.380 although we

00:34:58.980 rarely do

00:34:59.760 but in

00:35:00.800 some cases

00:35:01.620 we do

00:35:02.380 you can

00:35:04.500 lock them

00:35:07.100 up in the

00:35:07.800 short term

00:35:08.580 but there

00:35:11.240 will come

00:35:11.880 the moment

00:35:12.440 in almost

00:35:13.620 every case

00:35:14.660 that the

00:35:15.440 door opens

00:35:16.240 and they

00:35:16.880 walk out

00:35:17.600 at the

00:35:19.220 moment

00:35:19.880 by way

00:35:20.820 of punishment

00:35:21.580 by way

00:35:22.500 of saying

00:35:23.140 you have

00:35:24.240 done

00:35:24.540 something

00:35:25.240 so wicked

00:35:26.560 that society

00:35:27.960 says

00:35:28.580 you need

00:35:30.160 to go to

00:35:30.680 prison for

00:35:31.380 X number

00:35:32.200 of years

00:35:32.920 we are

00:35:34.680 locking people

00:35:35.380 up for

00:35:36.080 longer

00:35:36.640 and longer

00:35:37.620 let me

00:35:39.020 go back

00:35:39.400 to something

00:35:39.800 we raised

00:35:40.320 before

00:35:40.800 and then

00:35:41.360 draw it

00:35:42.420 in to

00:35:42.800 this

00:35:43.080 question

00:35:43.660 that you've

00:35:44.120 asked me

00:35:44.640 we were

00:35:46.180 talking about

00:35:47.040 the sentences

00:35:48.000 for murder

00:35:48.780 when I

00:35:50.140 began

00:35:51.140 to do

00:35:51.760 murder

00:35:52.140 trials

00:35:52.740 at the

00:35:53.260 bar

00:35:53.560 the average

00:35:54.580 sentence

00:35:55.100 for

00:35:56.020 murder

00:35:56.640 was

00:35:57.200 the

00:35:58.300 sentence

00:35:58.820 there's only

00:35:59.160 one sentence

00:35:59.880 it's life

00:36:00.340 imprisonment

00:36:00.980 but a

00:36:01.540 judge's

00:36:01.940 job is

00:36:02.480 then to

00:36:03.040 say

00:36:03.360 how long

00:36:04.900 a defendant

00:36:05.700 must serve

00:36:06.620 a prisoner

00:36:07.520 now

00:36:08.140 must serve

00:36:09.340 before he

00:36:10.200 or she

00:36:10.540 can apply

00:36:11.040 for parole

00:36:11.700 the average

00:36:13.140 time when

00:36:13.880 I first

00:36:14.420 came to

00:36:14.900 the bar

00:36:15.320 was between

00:36:15.900 10 and

00:36:16.400 15 years

00:36:17.420 the average

00:36:18.400 time now

00:36:19.220 is far

00:36:20.240 closer

00:36:20.720 to 25

00:36:21.720 years

00:36:22.460 and that

00:36:23.320 is because

00:36:23.760 of legislation

00:36:24.760 that has

00:36:25.700 been brought

00:36:26.280 in

00:36:26.600 specific

00:36:27.860 laws

00:36:29.020 so for

00:36:29.980 example

00:36:30.520 if you

00:36:32.120 kill

00:36:32.600 someone

00:36:33.120 with

00:36:34.120 a gun

00:36:36.220 the

00:36:38.300 starting

00:36:38.720 point

00:36:39.220 is

00:36:40.140 30

00:36:40.980 years

00:36:41.340 minimum

00:36:41.720 before

00:36:42.100 you

00:36:42.280 can

00:36:42.440 apply

00:36:42.720 for

00:36:42.960 parole

00:36:43.320 if

00:36:44.880 you

00:36:45.140 kill

00:36:45.600 someone

00:36:45.960 with

00:36:46.160 a knife

00:36:46.660 or

00:36:47.000 other

00:36:47.320 weapon

00:36:47.700 taken

00:36:48.120 into

00:36:48.360 the scene

00:36:48.980 in

00:36:49.480 certain

00:36:49.840 circumstances

00:36:50.800 almost

00:36:51.820 all

00:36:52.240 circumstances

00:36:53.080 where

00:36:54.100 knives

00:36:54.560 are used

00:36:55.160 in public

00:36:56.240 will be

00:36:57.040 covered here

00:36:57.740 the starting

00:36:59.460 point is

00:37:00.080 25 years

00:37:01.540 for all

00:37:02.700 others

00:37:03.380 the starting

00:37:04.100 point is

00:37:04.680 15

00:37:05.240 now the

00:37:06.360 starting

00:37:06.700 point

00:37:07.160 isn't

00:37:07.980 the finishing

00:37:08.720 point

00:37:09.220 it can

00:37:09.740 go up

00:37:10.240 or it

00:37:10.980 can go

00:37:11.300 down

00:37:11.680 and those

00:37:13.120 are the

00:37:13.620 guidelines

00:37:14.220 for

00:37:15.320 adults

00:37:17.180 let it

00:37:17.620 say anyone

00:37:18.140 18 and

00:37:18.820 over

00:37:19.140 they are

00:37:19.620 different

00:37:20.120 for people

00:37:20.620 under 18

00:37:21.480 and lower

00:37:22.500 but

00:37:24.680 you can

00:37:26.120 see

00:37:26.660 immediately

00:37:27.700 can't

00:37:28.260 you

00:37:28.460 that

00:37:29.060 somewhere

00:37:29.980 along the

00:37:30.580 line

00:37:31.000 an

00:37:31.940 awful

00:37:32.840 lot

00:37:33.480 of

00:37:34.140 people

00:37:34.760 are going

00:37:35.420 to walk

00:37:36.000 out of

00:37:36.380 prison

00:37:36.740 primarily

00:37:37.860 men

00:37:38.340 who have

00:37:39.240 spent

00:37:39.800 decades

00:37:42.580 perhaps

00:37:43.580 as long

00:37:44.500 as they

00:37:45.100 had lived

00:37:46.000 out in

00:37:46.680 the community

00:37:47.400 in prison

00:37:49.220 perhaps

00:37:50.320 longer

00:37:51.160 in prison

00:37:53.700 they are

00:37:54.320 living

00:37:54.660 in a

00:37:55.680 male

00:37:56.700 society

00:37:57.440 in which

00:37:58.920 they are

00:38:00.300 never

00:38:00.880 really

00:38:02.080 challenged

00:38:02.900 to take

00:38:03.360 responsibility

00:38:04.060 for their

00:38:04.720 day-to-day

00:38:05.300 lives

00:38:05.900 they are

00:38:07.380 given

00:38:07.620 some help

00:38:08.380 in learning

00:38:09.280 how to

00:38:09.700 manage

00:38:10.040 their

00:38:10.300 lives

00:38:10.780 but

00:38:11.360 they are

00:38:11.700 never

00:38:12.100 responsible

00:38:13.240 for

00:38:14.340 really

00:38:15.140 what

00:38:15.660 happens

00:38:16.080 they have

00:38:17.240 almost

00:38:18.580 never

00:38:19.020 had

00:38:19.580 a

00:38:20.100 normal

00:38:20.540 relationship

00:38:21.420 with

00:38:22.660 anyone

00:38:24.280 certainly

00:38:25.400 no

00:38:25.840 woman

00:38:26.260 not

00:38:28.260 necessarily

00:38:28.900 someone

00:38:29.460 they really

00:38:30.760 love

00:38:31.400 they have

00:38:32.700 never

00:38:33.340 lived

00:38:33.920 with

00:38:34.520 children

00:38:35.200 for

00:38:36.640 you know

00:38:38.540 since they

00:38:39.120 were

00:38:39.380 young

00:38:40.300 really

00:38:40.900 young

00:38:41.380 now I've

00:38:42.380 only got

00:38:42.720 to say

00:38:43.300 that

00:38:43.800 for you

00:38:44.640 to see

00:38:45.120 that

00:38:45.420 if we

00:38:46.780 think

00:38:47.200 they are

00:38:47.620 going to

00:38:48.140 walk

00:38:48.560 out

00:38:48.980 and

00:38:49.960 fit

00:38:50.720 seamlessly

00:38:51.720 back

00:38:52.320 into

00:38:52.740 society

00:38:53.440 we're

00:38:54.800 living in

00:38:55.380 a cloud

00:38:55.820 cuckoo land

00:38:56.540 so the

00:38:59.600 answer is

00:39:00.200 I'm not

00:39:00.800 sure

00:39:01.440 what we're

00:39:02.580 achieving

00:39:03.080 other than

00:39:05.120 to be able

00:39:05.720 to say

00:39:06.400 this is

00:39:08.460 so

00:39:09.240 serious

00:39:10.300 that we

00:39:11.200 as a

00:39:11.780 society

00:39:12.180 feel we

00:39:13.020 must

00:39:14.020 market

00:39:14.880 by these

00:39:15.740 very long

00:39:16.300 sentences

00:39:17.080 it's not

00:39:18.240 for me

00:39:18.600 to say

00:39:19.160 whether

00:39:19.700 we've got

00:39:20.640 that right

00:39:21.160 or we've

00:39:21.460 got it

00:39:22.040 wrong

00:39:22.440 but what

00:39:23.020 I can

00:39:23.400 do

00:39:23.760 is to

00:39:24.540 point out

00:39:25.140 the results

00:39:26.480 of doing

00:39:26.820 well this is

00:39:27.360 why I'm

00:39:27.680 asking you

00:39:28.140 I appreciate

00:39:28.740 it may feel

00:39:29.360 like I'm

00:39:29.780 a pitbull

00:39:30.220 with a

00:39:30.640 with a

00:39:31.000 bone here

00:39:31.480 but I'm

00:39:32.280 curious to

00:39:32.820 explore the

00:39:33.460 big issue

00:39:34.420 here which

00:39:35.040 is

00:39:35.720 why we

00:39:37.300 punish people

00:39:38.000 in this

00:39:38.540 way now

00:39:39.020 you're

00:39:40.680 essentially

00:39:41.000 saying

00:39:41.360 first of

00:39:41.820 all it's

00:39:42.060 a statement

00:39:42.600 of our

00:39:43.400 opinion

00:39:44.020 as a

00:39:44.560 people

00:39:44.860 about

00:39:45.380 how

00:39:45.960 serious

00:39:46.460 and grave

00:39:47.100 an

00:39:47.260 offence

00:39:47.620 is

00:39:47.880 and also

00:39:48.660 then obviously

00:39:49.200 there's the

00:39:49.640 protection of

00:39:50.240 the public

00:39:50.640 for the

00:39:50.980 duration of

00:39:51.580 that

00:39:51.780 prisoner's

00:39:52.420 incarceration

00:39:54.460 however your

00:39:56.320 point is well

00:39:57.020 taken which

00:39:57.620 is once

00:39:58.460 the person

00:39:59.120 comes out

00:39:59.860 they're not

00:40:00.980 adjusted to

00:40:01.620 society at

00:40:02.480 all even

00:40:03.060 they probably

00:40:03.560 weren't adjusted

00:40:04.100 to society

00:40:04.680 before but

00:40:05.800 now they're

00:40:07.400 35 years old

00:40:08.620 or 40 years

00:40:09.220 old or 50

00:40:10.220 years old and

00:40:11.300 they've lived

00:40:11.700 an entire life

00:40:12.580 in a very

00:40:13.640 abnormal

00:40:14.300 situation in

00:40:15.480 which none

00:40:16.160 of the normal

00:40:16.880 and ordinary

00:40:17.860 and healthy

00:40:18.560 ways of being

00:40:19.360 have been not

00:40:20.180 only encouraged

00:40:20.760 but even

00:40:21.120 available to

00:40:21.760 them

00:40:21.980 I understand

00:40:23.120 that

00:40:23.420 which to me

00:40:23.980 sounds like

00:40:24.400 partly a

00:40:25.040 strong argument

00:40:25.560 for prison

00:40:26.040 reform

00:40:26.480 if I may

00:40:27.380 say so

00:40:27.860 however

00:40:28.820 you're nodding

00:40:30.340 your head

00:40:30.620 there

00:40:30.760 it's obvious

00:40:33.240 we haven't

00:40:33.720 got our

00:40:34.080 system right

00:40:34.920 yes

00:40:35.440 the one

00:40:36.500 word we

00:40:36.940 haven't used

00:40:37.720 which is the

00:40:39.220 rationale for

00:40:39.940 sending people

00:40:40.800 to prison

00:40:41.320 and the one

00:40:42.480 word that

00:40:43.240 parliament

00:40:44.080 would use

00:40:44.920 is

00:40:45.960 deterrence

00:40:47.180 yes

00:40:47.780 yes

00:40:47.800 we make

00:40:48.300 longer and

00:40:49.000 longer

00:40:49.220 sentences

00:40:49.500 because we

00:40:51.560 say it

00:40:52.280 deters

00:40:52.780 others

00:40:53.160 look

00:40:56.500 you can

00:40:59.080 deter

00:40:59.660 some

00:41:01.120 single

00:41:02.180 mother

00:41:02.560 who is

00:41:03.340 desperate

00:41:04.320 to feed

00:41:05.780 her kids

00:41:06.440 from

00:41:07.280 saying

00:41:09.900 something

00:41:10.340 that isn't

00:41:10.800 true on a

00:41:11.600 social security

00:41:12.460 form

00:41:12.980 you can

00:41:14.220 deter

00:41:14.900 someone

00:41:15.320 from

00:41:15.580 doing

00:41:15.860 that

00:41:16.180 but

00:41:17.280 it is

00:41:18.440 self-evident

00:41:20.740 that we

00:41:21.540 are not

00:41:22.040 deterring

00:41:22.820 young people

00:41:24.500 from carrying

00:41:25.300 knives

00:41:25.900 by imposing

00:41:26.860 longer and

00:41:27.480 longer

00:41:27.720 sentences

00:41:28.460 if you

00:41:29.600 look at

00:41:30.260 the law

00:41:31.660 that brought

00:41:32.280 in 25

00:41:33.280 year starting

00:41:34.140 point for

00:41:34.700 the carrying

00:41:35.180 of the

00:41:36.120 use of a

00:41:36.660 weapon

00:41:36.940 that's been

00:41:37.380 carried to

00:41:37.880 the scene

00:41:38.400 for which

00:41:39.560 generally

00:41:41.160 speaking

00:41:41.760 substitute

00:41:42.440 the words

00:41:43.280 young people

00:41:44.120 carrying

00:41:44.560 knives

00:41:45.160 the law

00:41:46.660 was part

00:41:47.580 of a

00:41:48.040 thing called

00:41:49.140 the criminal

00:41:49.500 justice act

00:41:50.360 in 2003

00:41:51.740 look at

00:41:54.400 what's

00:41:54.680 happened

00:41:55.020 since 2003

00:41:56.640 I don't

00:41:57.900 know how

00:41:58.140 many we've

00:41:58.600 deterred

00:41:59.220 but

00:41:59.700 knife

00:42:00.480 crimes

00:42:00.880 gone up

00:42:01.660 and up

00:42:02.520 and up

00:42:03.400 we're not

00:42:06.140 deterring

00:42:07.520 people

00:42:08.300 and that

00:42:11.100 has something

00:42:11.960 to do

00:42:12.720 with the

00:42:14.020 if I may

00:42:16.000 use the

00:42:16.500 word

00:42:16.760 the demographic

00:42:17.620 that we're

00:42:18.820 aiming at

00:42:19.660 these are

00:42:20.860 young people

00:42:22.440 maybe not

00:42:23.760 all as young

00:42:24.460 as 16

00:42:25.160 17

00:42:25.740 but

00:42:26.840 current

00:42:28.100 scientific

00:42:28.840 thinking

00:42:29.540 tells us

00:42:30.640 that people's

00:42:31.500 brains aren't

00:42:32.160 fully formed

00:42:32.840 they're not

00:42:33.260 making the

00:42:33.780 best judgments

00:42:34.640 until they're

00:42:35.700 what

00:42:35.960 in their

00:42:36.560 mid

00:42:36.920 20s

00:42:37.960 so

00:42:39.540 trying to

00:42:43.720 deter

00:42:44.520 kids of

00:42:47.340 16

00:42:47.840 who are

00:42:49.320 and I will

00:42:50.600 use this

00:42:51.140 expression

00:42:51.680 running with

00:42:52.640 the pack

00:42:53.180 by saying

00:42:55.120 you know

00:42:57.280 that if

00:42:57.640 you get

00:42:58.020 if you

00:42:58.620 kill

00:42:58.880 someone

00:42:59.480 and get

00:43:00.520 caught

00:43:01.060 and get

00:43:02.280 convicted

00:43:02.900 you are

00:43:04.100 looking at

00:43:04.580 a very

00:43:05.260 very

00:43:05.860 very long

00:43:06.700 sentence

00:43:07.320 so don't

00:43:08.600 do it

00:43:09.100 dear

00:43:09.520 isn't

00:43:10.980 working

00:43:11.560 it just

00:43:12.700 isn't

00:43:13.380 and it's

00:43:13.880 not likely

00:43:14.700 to

00:43:15.060 because of

00:43:15.940 the way

00:43:16.600 that

00:43:17.140 kids

00:43:18.320 and I'm

00:43:19.220 not saying

00:43:19.720 these kids

00:43:21.140 I'm saying

00:43:21.960 all

00:43:23.580 youngsters

00:43:24.620 are

00:43:25.420 they don't

00:43:26.520 think

00:43:27.220 in that

00:43:28.740 in that

00:43:29.220 way

00:43:29.480 they don't

00:43:30.300 have

00:43:30.720 they don't

00:43:32.400 have

00:43:32.820 a reverse

00:43:35.040 gear

00:43:35.480 a lot

00:43:37.120 of them

00:43:37.420 hardly

00:43:38.000 have

00:43:38.480 a brake

00:43:39.460 to apply

00:43:40.420 the

00:43:41.840 accelerator

00:43:42.580 is

00:43:43.400 out of

00:43:44.280 control

00:43:44.980 the

00:43:46.320 fuel

00:43:47.660 on which

00:43:48.200 they're

00:43:48.580 running

00:43:49.040 is

00:43:49.960 high

00:43:50.600 octane

00:43:51.560 excitement

00:43:53.900 and

00:43:55.020 belonging

00:43:56.420 to a

00:43:57.120 group

00:43:57.600 can be

00:43:59.020 a

00:44:00.320 motivating

00:44:00.900 factor

00:44:01.580 that is

00:44:02.100 there

00:44:02.980 in their

00:44:04.120 faces

00:44:04.560 on a

00:44:05.520 day to

00:44:05.900 day

00:44:06.120 basis

00:44:06.760 and

00:44:08.000 the

00:44:08.640 distant

00:44:10.060 threat

00:44:11.080 of

00:44:11.640 if this

00:44:12.520 happens

00:44:12.980 and if

00:44:13.680 that

00:44:14.020 happens

00:44:14.520 and if

00:44:15.520 the third

00:44:16.100 or fourth

00:44:16.640 thing

00:44:16.880 happens

00:44:17.360 then that

00:44:18.280 punishment

00:44:18.740 will follow

00:44:19.460 doesn't

00:44:20.640 compute

00:44:22.500 you're too

00:44:23.900 young to

00:44:24.380 remember the

00:44:24.880 Daleks

00:44:25.340 where they

00:44:25.760 used to

00:44:26.120 say it

00:44:26.500 does not

00:44:26.980 compute

00:44:27.500 but it

00:44:29.740 doesn't

00:44:30.820 for these

00:44:32.380 or for

00:44:32.840 some of

00:44:33.380 these kids

00:44:34.120 and

00:44:35.320 of course

00:44:37.180 we should

00:44:37.560 have

00:44:37.780 deterrent

00:44:38.280 sentences

00:44:38.920 in certain

00:44:39.660 circumstances

00:44:40.620 but we

00:44:43.040 should first

00:44:43.680 of all

00:44:44.080 maybe

00:44:44.700 stop and

00:44:45.780 think what

00:44:46.380 we're trying

00:44:47.320 to achieve

00:44:48.420 and what

00:44:50.120 we're trying

00:44:50.680 to achieve

00:44:51.540 isn't

00:44:52.480 to punish

00:44:53.860 wrongdoers

00:44:55.180 it's to

00:44:56.460 stop

00:44:57.120 people

00:44:57.820 becoming

00:44:58.760 wrongdoers

00:44:59.860 it's not

00:45:01.120 to

00:45:02.140 do

00:45:03.260 something

00:45:03.840 with the

00:45:04.280 people who

00:45:04.860 walk through

00:45:05.420 the door

00:45:05.900 of the

00:45:06.260 court

00:45:06.700 it's

00:45:07.780 to have

00:45:08.620 a society

00:45:09.340 in which

00:45:09.940 people are

00:45:10.700 not

00:45:11.260 walking

00:45:11.880 through the

00:45:12.460 door of

00:45:12.880 the court

00:45:13.500 it's

00:45:14.780 what we

00:45:16.680 should be

00:45:17.020 trying to

00:45:17.540 do

00:45:17.860 is do

00:45:18.580 judges

00:45:19.100 out of

00:45:19.820 a job

00:45:20.280 how do

00:45:22.620 you

00:45:22.960 let's say

00:45:24.080 you've got

00:45:24.420 one of

00:45:24.720 these kids

00:45:25.160 in front

00:45:25.600 of you

00:45:25.960 and you're

00:45:26.580 judging

00:45:26.920 the case

00:45:27.460 and they've

00:45:28.080 done something

00:45:28.680 heinous

00:45:29.220 doesn't have

00:45:29.920 to be a

00:45:30.220 kid

00:45:30.340 could be

00:45:30.600 anyone

00:45:30.860 how do

00:45:32.520 you detach

00:45:33.160 yourself

00:45:33.680 emotionally

00:45:34.320 from hearing

00:45:35.140 the heinous

00:45:36.240 details

00:45:36.820 of a

00:45:37.280 crime

00:45:37.640 and then

00:45:39.460 being objective

00:45:40.360 enough

00:45:40.820 to pass

00:45:41.720 a judgment

00:45:42.460 dispassionately

00:45:43.620 which is

00:45:44.000 what you

00:45:44.380 need to

00:45:44.940 do

00:45:45.160 in order

00:45:45.840 to administer

00:45:46.400 justice

00:45:47.060 a couple

00:45:50.520 of things

00:45:51.160 firstly

00:45:52.360 we don't

00:45:53.580 judges

00:45:54.080 don't

00:45:54.680 drop down

00:45:55.320 out of

00:45:55.600 a clear

00:45:55.920 blue sky

00:45:56.600 in this

00:45:58.920 country

00:45:59.520 to be a

00:46:00.800 judge

00:46:01.200 you have

00:46:02.020 to have

00:46:02.400 been a

00:46:02.820 lawyer

00:46:03.100 of

00:46:04.200 considerable

00:46:05.720 experience

00:46:06.740 before you

00:46:08.480 can apply

00:46:08.940 to become

00:46:09.360 a judge

00:46:09.920 unlike

00:46:10.580 other

00:46:10.940 countries

00:46:11.420 we don't

00:46:12.840 have

00:46:13.300 judge

00:46:14.280 school

00:46:14.740 don't

00:46:15.140 have

00:46:15.300 a

00:46:15.500 judge

00:46:15.820 BA

00:46:16.280 you

00:46:18.080 come

00:46:20.800 to the

00:46:21.340 bench

00:46:21.840 via

00:46:22.880 a career

00:46:23.540 in the

00:46:24.040 law

00:46:24.340 most

00:46:25.620 judges

00:46:26.160 not all

00:46:26.800 but most

00:46:27.500 have been

00:46:28.540 criminal

00:46:29.900 barristers

00:46:30.680 when I say

00:46:32.400 most judges

00:46:32.940 most judges

00:46:33.840 dealing with

00:46:34.420 criminal

00:46:34.720 cases

00:46:35.260 have been

00:46:36.340 criminal

00:46:36.760 barristers

00:46:37.520 when you're

00:46:39.900 a criminal

00:46:40.300 barrister

00:46:40.880 you are

00:46:41.460 much more

00:46:42.300 hands-on

00:46:43.040 with the

00:46:44.280 deep and

00:46:44.720 dirty

00:46:45.000 stuff

00:46:45.540 you are

00:46:46.400 in the

00:46:47.100 cell

00:46:47.420 with your

00:46:47.820 client

00:46:48.400 talking to

00:46:49.100 him

00:46:49.280 every day

00:46:49.900 you are

00:46:50.880 hands-on

00:46:52.180 with the

00:46:52.940 victims

00:46:53.960 if you are

00:46:54.760 prosecuting

00:46:55.540 you are

00:46:56.440 working with

00:46:57.600 the officers

00:46:58.220 who have

00:46:59.700 been

00:47:01.360 at the

00:47:02.140 scene

00:47:02.520 you are

00:47:03.440 looking at

00:47:04.180 the depths

00:47:05.080 of the

00:47:05.420 evidence

00:47:05.820 some of

00:47:06.280 which is

00:47:06.620 just

00:47:06.900 never

00:47:07.500 going to

00:47:07.740 be shown

00:47:08.120 to the

00:47:08.480 jury

00:47:08.760 but

00:47:09.040 before you

00:47:11.560 get on

00:47:11.880 the bench

00:47:12.480 you know

00:47:14.240 what's

00:47:14.600 coming

00:47:14.980 and

00:47:15.860 if you're

00:47:16.780 not able

00:47:17.240 to deal

00:47:17.700 with it

00:47:18.120 you wouldn't

00:47:18.780 be doing

00:47:19.200 that job

00:47:19.900 I think

00:47:20.360 that's

00:47:20.640 the first

00:47:21.960 thing

00:47:22.260 whether we

00:47:22.680 become

00:47:23.040 hardened

00:47:23.600 inured

00:47:24.320 whether we're

00:47:25.820 a rotten

00:47:26.180 lot in

00:47:26.640 that sense

00:47:27.340 I don't

00:47:28.100 know

00:47:28.420 the second

00:47:30.280 thing is

00:47:30.940 of course

00:47:32.760 you have

00:47:33.120 to detach

00:47:33.680 yourself

00:47:34.300 but

00:47:35.100 there's

00:47:37.460 a difference

00:47:38.480 between

00:47:39.060 being

00:47:39.700 sympathetic

00:47:40.760 which is

00:47:41.960 useless

00:47:42.500 in a

00:47:42.920 judge

00:47:43.260 it's a

00:47:43.960 waste

00:47:44.420 of space

00:47:45.120 it's a

00:47:46.040 waste

00:47:46.480 of emotional

00:47:47.140 energy

00:47:47.600 and it

00:47:48.620 makes you

00:47:49.140 a worse

00:47:49.600 judge

00:47:50.160 there's a

00:47:51.660 difference

00:47:52.120 between

00:47:52.540 being

00:47:52.940 sympathetic

00:47:53.740 and

00:47:54.580 empathetic

00:47:55.940 which is

00:47:56.740 something

00:47:57.140 I think

00:47:58.600 every judge

00:48:00.180 should be

00:48:00.940 you need

00:48:02.040 to be

00:48:02.440 able to

00:48:03.060 understand

00:48:04.340 where people

00:48:05.680 have come

00:48:06.260 from

00:48:06.820 and I

00:48:08.340 don't just

00:48:08.740 mean

00:48:08.960 defendants

00:48:09.760 you need

00:48:10.720 to be

00:48:11.020 able to

00:48:11.680 understand

00:48:13.060 everyone

00:48:14.120 in your

00:48:14.500 courtroom

00:48:14.940 a judge

00:48:16.660 of course

00:48:17.740 has to

00:48:18.220 know the

00:48:18.620 law

00:48:18.900 except

00:48:20.300 you don't

00:48:20.780 have to

00:48:21.160 know the

00:48:21.520 law

00:48:21.760 you have

00:48:22.300 to know

00:48:22.620 where to

00:48:22.960 look at

00:48:23.280 the law

00:48:23.780 you don't

00:48:25.000 have to

00:48:25.300 have

00:48:25.460 everything

00:48:26.160 in your

00:48:26.520 head

00:48:26.920 you have

00:48:28.040 to be

00:48:28.380 able to

00:48:28.880 handle

00:48:29.760 it

00:48:29.960 find

00:48:30.460 it

00:48:30.720 and

00:48:31.280 handle

00:48:31.680 it

00:48:32.020 but

00:48:32.740 what

00:48:33.000 you

00:48:33.220 do

00:48:33.760 have

00:48:34.400 to be

00:48:34.880 to be

00:48:35.340 a good

00:48:35.720 judge

00:48:36.220 in a

00:48:36.640 jury

00:48:36.920 trial

00:48:37.460 is a

00:48:38.360 good

00:48:38.740 man

00:48:41.260 manager

00:48:41.740 a good

00:48:42.480 person

00:48:43.000 manager

00:48:43.480 you need

00:48:44.660 to be

00:48:45.540 able to

00:48:45.960 manage

00:48:46.360 a

00:48:46.740 courtroom

00:48:47.280 packed

00:48:48.520 with

00:48:48.880 people

00:48:49.320 defendants

00:48:50.880 witnesses

00:48:52.040 jurors

00:48:53.780 barristers

00:48:55.400 public

00:48:56.620 gallery

00:48:57.200 staff

00:48:58.680 you have

00:48:59.600 to know

00:49:00.080 what's

00:49:00.900 going on

00:49:01.400 in every

00:49:01.880 quarter

00:49:02.500 of your

00:49:03.460 courtroom

00:49:04.040 that

00:49:04.400 comes

00:49:04.760 through

00:49:05.060 so

00:49:05.480 strongly

00:49:05.960 in your

00:49:06.280 book

00:49:06.520 as I

00:49:06.800 was

00:49:06.960 reading

00:49:07.260 I

00:49:07.540 can

00:49:07.740 see

00:49:07.940 how

00:49:08.160 carefully

00:49:08.620 you

00:49:08.860 think

00:49:09.080 about

00:49:09.480 managing

00:49:10.460 different

00:49:10.980 people

00:49:11.380 and

00:49:11.680 what

00:49:12.140 this

00:49:12.360 person

00:49:12.640 is

00:49:12.780 about

00:49:13.100 to say

00:49:13.560 and why

00:49:13.940 they're

00:49:14.200 saying

00:49:14.540 it

00:49:14.720 it's

00:49:14.920 fascinating

00:49:15.420 if you

00:49:16.500 can't

00:49:16.880 do

00:49:17.120 that

00:49:17.540 certainly

00:49:18.740 at the

00:49:19.100 old

00:49:19.300 Bailey

00:49:19.600 where

00:49:19.820 we're

00:49:20.020 dealing

00:49:20.260 with

00:49:20.480 really

00:49:20.820 serious

00:49:21.380 stuff

00:49:21.860 trial

00:49:22.920 after

00:49:23.280 trial

00:49:23.660 is

00:49:23.840 going

00:49:23.980 to

00:49:24.060 go

00:49:24.220 wrong

00:49:24.580 you

00:49:26.360 know

00:49:26.460 I've

00:49:26.860 had

00:49:27.040 cases

00:49:27.560 where

00:49:28.480 I've

00:49:28.860 certainly

00:49:29.100 had

00:49:29.320 one

00:49:29.580 case

00:49:30.060 where

00:49:30.740 I

00:49:30.960 had

00:49:31.240 nine

00:49:32.380 defendants

00:49:33.160 in the

00:49:33.940 dock

00:49:34.440 so it

00:49:35.320 must have

00:49:35.560 been way

00:49:35.900 before

00:49:36.200 Covid

00:49:36.600 because we

00:49:36.940 haven't done

00:49:37.280 that since

00:49:37.860 Covid

00:49:38.240 but nine

00:49:39.060 defendants

00:49:39.720 in the

00:49:40.060 dock

00:49:40.360 eight of

00:49:44.140 whom

00:49:44.300 belonged

00:49:44.660 to one

00:49:45.100 family

00:49:45.680 and one

00:49:46.680 of whom

00:49:47.080 didn't

00:49:47.680 and

00:49:48.640 the

00:49:50.320 blame

00:49:52.040 was

00:49:52.940 being put

00:49:53.900 by eight

00:49:54.440 on the

00:49:54.760 one

00:49:55.060 and

00:49:56.660 the

00:49:58.980 one

00:49:59.460 was not

00:50:01.540 coping

00:50:02.060 and

00:50:03.200 it was

00:50:03.820 very hard

00:50:04.520 to know

00:50:05.180 what to

00:50:05.880 do

00:50:06.220 because

00:50:07.400 he was

00:50:08.500 becoming

00:50:09.100 unmanaged

00:50:10.340 I can

00:50:12.580 control

00:50:12.980 what happens

00:50:13.540 in the

00:50:13.900 dock

00:50:14.360 in my

00:50:14.920 courtroom

00:50:15.340 what I

00:50:16.260 can't do

00:50:16.880 is to

00:50:17.540 control

00:50:17.900 what is

00:50:18.260 happening

00:50:18.620 down in

00:50:19.220 the cells

00:50:19.740 although I

00:50:20.840 can make

00:50:21.620 sure my

00:50:22.040 staff down

00:50:22.780 there

00:50:23.120 keep an

00:50:23.840 eye on

00:50:24.180 things

00:50:24.760 still less

00:50:26.220 can I

00:50:26.680 control

00:50:27.240 what happens

00:50:28.180 in prison

00:50:28.840 vans

00:50:29.320 or back

00:50:30.420 in the

00:50:30.820 prison

00:50:31.240 I can

00:50:32.260 contact

00:50:32.700 the governor

00:50:33.240 and say

00:50:33.700 please make

00:50:34.340 sure this

00:50:35.000 prisoner is

00:50:35.960 on a

00:50:36.240 different

00:50:36.500 wing

00:50:36.840 to the

00:50:37.240 others

00:50:37.640 but what

00:50:38.320 I can't

00:50:38.820 do

00:50:39.140 is stop

00:50:40.120 the

00:50:40.620 others

00:50:40.980 speaking

00:50:42.060 to

00:50:42.660 friends

00:50:43.620 of theirs

00:50:44.120 who are

00:50:44.420 on the

00:50:44.720 other

00:50:45.260 wings

00:50:45.720 I

00:50:46.480 can't

00:50:46.960 control

00:50:47.540 that

00:50:47.880 in the

00:50:49.840 end

00:50:50.400 what we

00:50:51.160 did

00:50:51.620 really

00:50:53.880 because

00:50:54.240 everyone

00:50:55.100 wanted

00:50:55.660 well

00:50:56.540 the one

00:50:57.500 was happy

00:50:58.360 with this

00:50:58.780 happening

00:50:59.260 and because

00:50:59.920 it was the

00:51:00.340 only way

00:51:00.800 of making

00:51:01.200 the trial

00:51:02.040 viable

00:51:03.020 was he

00:51:04.540 was in

00:51:04.920 such a

00:51:05.500 state

00:51:05.800 that I

00:51:06.120 didn't

00:51:06.360 think it

00:51:06.720 was right

00:51:07.240 or safe

00:51:07.940 to have

00:51:08.320 him

00:51:08.520 brought

00:51:08.980 to court

00:51:09.620 and we

00:51:10.620 linked up

00:51:11.420 a video

00:51:11.860 and he

00:51:13.060 remained

00:51:13.800 in prison

00:51:14.380 in the

00:51:15.260 video suite

00:51:16.220 and day

00:51:17.020 after day

00:51:17.800 joined in

00:51:19.240 from the

00:51:21.100 video suite

00:51:21.880 and there

00:51:22.740 were times

00:51:23.340 when he

00:51:24.340 wasn't coping

00:51:25.100 and he

00:51:25.420 got up

00:51:25.860 and he

00:51:26.160 walked out

00:51:26.840 the same

00:51:27.920 thing could

00:51:28.280 have happened

00:51:28.720 in the

00:51:29.560 courtroom

00:51:29.980 the jury

00:51:31.020 could see

00:51:31.920 what was

00:51:32.700 happening

00:51:33.240 there are

00:51:38.420 ways

00:51:39.220 of

00:51:40.340 managing

00:51:41.000 most

00:51:41.880 circumstances

00:51:43.200 I mean

00:51:44.200 I've had

00:51:44.640 another

00:51:44.940 case

00:51:45.420 where

00:51:45.960 the

00:51:48.020 victim

00:51:48.380 was

00:51:49.700 a young

00:51:50.980 girl

00:51:51.380 who was

00:51:52.420 wholly

00:51:53.380 innocent

00:51:54.180 completely

00:51:55.800 and utterly

00:51:56.920 innocent

00:51:57.600 it was a

00:51:58.440 case of

00:51:58.780 mistaken

00:51:59.160 identity

00:51:59.780 when she

00:52:00.240 was stabbed

00:52:00.780 to death

00:52:01.340 and

00:52:02.420 the

00:52:04.720 public

00:52:05.060 gallery

00:52:05.480 was

00:52:05.800 packed

00:52:07.000 with

00:52:08.000 not just

00:52:09.700 her family

00:52:10.480 but with

00:52:11.520 her school

00:52:12.280 friends

00:52:12.860 with local

00:52:13.940 people

00:52:14.540 and they

00:52:15.920 all arrived

00:52:17.920 on the

00:52:18.680 first day

00:52:19.480 wearing

00:52:20.520 t-shirts

00:52:21.600 emblazoned

00:52:23.320 with her

00:52:24.880 face

00:52:25.420 and her

00:52:26.440 name

00:52:26.820 and one

00:52:28.020 entirely

00:52:29.240 understands

00:52:30.320 how they

00:52:31.360 felt

00:52:31.840 but they

00:52:33.160 were sitting

00:52:33.480 right opposite

00:52:34.100 the jury

00:52:34.840 and when

00:52:36.860 the defendants

00:52:38.580 barristers

00:52:40.500 said

00:52:41.180 how can

00:52:42.440 they have

00:52:42.880 a fair

00:52:43.360 trial

00:52:44.040 when the

00:52:44.860 jury

00:52:45.140 are staring

00:52:46.140 into the

00:52:47.360 image

00:52:47.940 of this

00:52:49.320 dead

00:52:49.640 girl

00:52:50.140 emblazoned

00:52:51.900 upon

00:52:52.520 t-shirts

00:52:53.800 worn

00:52:54.500 and by

00:52:55.000 young

00:52:57.460 school

00:52:58.100 friends

00:52:58.840 of hers

00:52:59.680 local

00:53:01.560 people

00:53:02.300 who knew

00:53:03.100 and loved

00:53:03.660 her

00:53:03.960 they had

00:53:05.120 a point

00:53:05.540 too

00:53:06.040 and so

00:53:07.100 one had

00:53:07.920 to find

00:53:09.040 a way

00:53:10.720 of

00:53:11.280 balancing

00:53:12.800 the issues

00:53:14.960 there

00:53:15.380 one had

00:53:16.340 to find

00:53:16.840 a

00:53:17.440 solution

00:53:18.680 and believe

00:53:19.820 me

00:53:20.120 there is

00:53:20.580 no

00:53:20.960 textbook

00:53:21.640 that

00:53:22.120 gives

00:53:22.540 you

00:53:22.720 the

00:53:22.940 answer

00:53:23.280 to

00:53:23.480 that

00:53:23.820 and

00:53:24.460 you

00:53:26.660 can

00:53:26.840 only

00:53:27.140 do

00:53:27.560 it

00:53:27.940 by

00:53:28.780 understanding

00:53:30.880 what's

00:53:31.300 going on

00:53:32.000 and using

00:53:32.880 a bit

00:53:33.100 of imagination

00:53:33.900 and finding

00:53:34.940 some solution

00:53:36.100 and what was

00:53:36.920 the solution

00:53:37.360 in that

00:53:37.700 particular

00:53:38.080 case

00:53:38.400 Wendy

00:53:38.660 in that

00:53:40.320 particular

00:53:40.740 case

00:53:41.260 I

00:53:41.800 said

00:53:43.180 to those

00:53:43.600 and I

00:53:43.900 mean

00:53:44.060 this

00:53:44.880 wouldn't

00:53:45.220 necessarily

00:53:45.820 have worked

00:53:46.560 but it

00:53:47.180 did

00:53:47.520 I

00:53:48.780 said to

00:53:49.180 those

00:53:49.420 in the

00:53:49.660 public

00:53:49.980 gallery

00:53:50.400 that I

00:53:50.740 entirely

00:53:51.340 understood

00:53:51.880 why they

00:53:52.360 were doing

00:53:52.760 what they

00:53:53.160 were doing

00:53:53.720 that I

00:53:54.600 entirely

00:53:55.060 understood

00:53:55.580 they wanted

00:53:56.100 to keep

00:53:56.580 the image

00:53:57.360 of this

00:53:59.120 girl

00:53:59.540 close to

00:54:00.400 their hearts

00:54:01.120 that they

00:54:02.240 might reflect

00:54:03.080 upon the

00:54:03.580 nature of

00:54:04.100 the trial

00:54:04.560 and the

00:54:04.900 purpose

00:54:05.220 of the

00:54:05.600 trial

00:54:06.020 and the

00:54:07.280 fact that

00:54:07.760 she would

00:54:08.060 be closer

00:54:08.560 to their

00:54:08.960 hearts

00:54:09.400 if they

00:54:09.860 turned

00:54:10.120 their t-shirts

00:54:10.800 inside out

00:54:11.680 and they

00:54:12.820 all went

00:54:13.420 off and

00:54:13.780 turned their

00:54:14.220 t-shirts

00:54:14.660 inside out

00:54:15.500 wow

00:54:16.540 Wendy

00:54:18.100 what do

00:54:18.840 you

00:54:19.060 I mean

00:54:19.920 this is

00:54:20.600 do you

00:54:21.500 ever feel

00:54:22.220 that

00:54:22.660 I think

00:54:24.140 the problem

00:54:24.880 is worse

00:54:25.440 in America

00:54:26.220 than it is

00:54:26.700 over here

00:54:27.200 but if you

00:54:28.380 have money

00:54:29.660 and access

00:54:31.260 to money

00:54:31.820 you stand

00:54:33.920 a much

00:54:34.360 better chance

00:54:35.500 of getting

00:54:37.520 off

00:54:37.900 because

00:54:39.080 you have

00:54:39.880 access to

00:54:40.380 better lawyers

00:54:40.960 better

00:54:41.240 barristers

00:54:41.960 and have

00:54:42.800 you ever

00:54:43.020 seen that

00:54:43.620 mismatch

00:54:44.320 in court

00:54:44.940 where you

00:54:45.280 have an

00:54:45.620 inexperienced

00:54:46.200 barrister

00:54:46.620 against a

00:54:47.240 high-level

00:54:47.760 QC

00:54:48.380 and you're

00:54:49.520 thinking to

00:54:49.900 yourself

00:54:50.280 there's two

00:54:52.100 different

00:54:52.340 questions there

00:54:53.120 the first

00:54:54.300 is whether

00:54:54.800 you can

00:54:56.260 buy

00:54:57.500 better

00:54:59.660 representation

00:55:00.600 the answer

00:55:03.160 is that

00:55:03.800 almost every

00:55:05.000 defendant

00:55:05.520 in a

00:55:06.940 murder trial

00:55:07.660 almost all

00:55:09.260 of them

00:55:09.580 will be

00:55:10.020 legally

00:55:10.360 aided

00:55:10.840 I mean

00:55:11.440 even if

00:55:13.460 they're

00:55:13.600 making

00:55:13.880 some

00:55:14.180 sort

00:55:14.420 of

00:55:14.540 contribution

00:55:15.120 because

00:55:15.780 of

00:55:16.020 legal

00:55:16.440 aid

00:55:16.760 rules

00:55:18.220 almost

00:55:19.340 all of

00:55:19.820 them

00:55:19.980 will be

00:55:20.680 on

00:55:22.540 legal

00:55:22.880 aid

00:55:23.260 almost

00:55:26.840 all of

00:55:27.300 them

00:55:27.400 will be

00:55:27.640 in

00:55:27.820 custody

00:55:28.260 so

00:55:31.000 mostly

00:55:33.280 that isn't

00:55:33.900 a question

00:55:34.320 that arises

00:55:35.000 however

00:55:37.780 we have

00:55:39.940 a thing

00:55:40.440 called the

00:55:41.140 cab rank

00:55:41.680 rule

00:55:42.100 where

00:55:43.380 for

00:55:44.500 barristers

00:55:45.260 top to

00:55:46.260 bottom

00:55:46.640 beginning to

00:55:47.740 end

00:55:48.180 if you

00:55:49.200 are

00:55:49.400 instructed

00:55:50.160 by

00:55:51.300 a

00:55:53.140 solicitor

00:55:53.800 or even

00:55:54.700 directly by

00:55:55.540 someone

00:55:55.960 in a

00:55:56.760 particular

00:55:57.180 case

00:55:57.760 if your

00:55:59.340 experience

00:56:00.820 and knowledge

00:56:02.160 is such

00:56:02.940 that you

00:56:03.320 are a

00:56:03.820 suitable

00:56:04.220 person to

00:56:04.980 handle

00:56:05.280 the

00:56:05.500 case

00:56:05.920 you

00:56:07.240 should

00:56:07.560 do

00:56:07.840 it

00:56:08.120 it's

00:56:08.820 like

00:56:09.080 cabs

00:56:09.720 pulling

00:56:10.020 up

00:56:10.260 you're

00:56:10.460 not

00:56:10.600 entitled

00:56:11.040 to

00:56:11.320 say

00:56:11.640 I

00:56:12.380 won't

00:56:12.660 take

00:56:12.920 that

00:56:13.180 case

00:56:13.660 and

00:56:14.360 so

00:56:14.800 by

00:56:16.300 and

00:56:16.540 large

00:56:17.100 very

00:56:19.820 very

00:56:20.820 top

00:56:21.700 barristers

00:56:23.460 dealing

00:56:24.040 with

00:56:24.300 murders

00:56:24.920 are on

00:56:26.000 legal

00:56:26.360 aid

00:56:26.760 the

00:56:28.940 separate

00:56:29.660 question

00:56:30.260 is

00:56:32.060 do you

00:56:33.580 get a

00:56:33.920 mismatch

00:56:34.620 and the

00:56:35.660 answer

00:56:36.040 is

00:56:36.600 yes

00:56:37.480 you

00:56:38.180 can

00:56:38.740 now

00:56:39.740 you

00:56:40.760 can

00:56:40.940 get

00:56:41.340 a

00:56:41.700 mismatch

00:56:42.440 whether

00:56:42.820 someone's

00:56:43.400 paying

00:56:43.700 privately

00:56:44.240 or not

00:56:45.240 you can

00:56:45.540 get a

00:56:45.840 mismatch

00:56:46.300 even if

00:56:46.760 both

00:56:47.120 lots

00:56:47.480 if

00:56:47.860 one's

00:56:48.200 on

00:56:48.340 legal aid

00:56:48.840 and one's

00:56:49.260 been

00:56:49.480 paid by

00:56:50.340 the

00:56:50.600 Crown

00:56:50.900 Prosecution

00:56:51.560 Service

00:56:52.080 and there

00:56:52.800 has in

00:56:53.160 the past

00:56:53.640 been

00:56:54.040 complaints

00:56:55.200 that

00:56:55.840 better

00:56:57.780 people

00:56:58.200 defended

00:56:58.840 sometimes

00:56:59.840 than were

00:57:00.580 employed

00:57:01.120 by

00:57:01.560 the

00:57:02.620 CPS

00:57:03.240 that

00:57:03.720 isn't

00:57:03.980 my

00:57:04.200 experience

00:57:04.860 and some

00:57:05.400 of the

00:57:05.760 absolute

00:57:06.460 top

00:57:07.560 people

00:57:08.580 who

00:57:08.800 prosecute

00:57:09.360 murders

00:57:09.940 are

00:57:11.120 engaged

00:57:12.160 by

00:57:13.200 the

00:57:13.620 Crown

00:57:13.860 Prosecution

00:57:14.620 Service

00:57:15.240 so

00:57:16.100 I

00:57:17.000 think

00:57:17.280 that

00:57:17.540 it

00:57:18.720 is

00:57:18.860 at

00:57:19.000 a

00:57:19.280 lower

00:57:19.520 level

00:57:20.040 of

00:57:21.020 crime

00:57:21.480 that

00:57:21.820 you

00:57:21.980 tend

00:57:22.240 to

00:57:22.420 get

00:57:22.620 a

00:57:22.860 mismatch

00:57:23.520 that

00:57:25.160 can

00:57:25.520 happen

00:57:25.960 my

00:57:27.140 experience

00:57:28.160 is

00:57:28.800 if

00:57:28.960 you

00:57:29.060 get

00:57:29.260 a

00:57:29.440 really

00:57:30.020 dim

00:57:32.020 I

00:57:33.000 say

00:57:33.200 that

00:57:33.380 with

00:57:33.540 hesitation

00:57:34.060 and

00:57:34.340 with

00:57:34.480 the

00:57:34.620 greatest

00:57:34.920 of

00:57:35.120 respect

00:57:35.500 to

00:57:35.720 all

00:57:35.900 my

00:57:36.080 learned

00:57:36.380 colleagues

00:57:36.900 dim

00:57:37.620 person

00:57:38.200 on

00:57:38.820 one

00:57:39.080 side

00:57:39.600 and

00:57:39.840 a

00:57:39.960 really

00:57:40.160 clever

00:57:40.480 person

00:57:40.880 on

00:57:41.060 the

00:57:41.200 other

00:57:41.380 side

00:57:41.780 it's

00:57:42.240 the

00:57:42.380 dim

00:57:42.580 person

00:57:43.000 who

00:57:43.160 usually

00:57:43.420 gets

00:57:43.740 the

00:57:43.920 result

00:57:44.320 because

00:57:44.920 the

00:57:45.160 jury

00:57:45.440 see

00:57:45.820 it

00:57:46.080 the

00:57:46.740 jury

00:57:47.100 can

00:57:47.400 see

00:57:47.760 it

00:57:48.020 and

00:57:48.560 it

00:57:48.740 worries

00:57:49.160 them

00:57:49.460 they

00:57:50.560 worry

00:57:51.160 if

00:57:51.560 they

00:57:51.680 think

00:57:51.940 someone

00:57:52.240 isn't

00:57:52.500 getting

00:57:52.720 a

00:57:52.880 fair

00:57:53.080 crack

00:57:53.400 of

00:57:53.540 the

00:57:53.640 whip

00:57:53.900 one

00:57:54.380 side

00:57:54.680 or

00:57:54.820 the

00:57:54.940 other

00:57:55.100 isn't

00:57:55.340 getting

00:57:55.580 a

00:57:55.760 fair

00:57:55.960 crack

00:57:56.260 of

00:57:56.400 the

00:57:56.520 whip

00:57:56.740 so

00:57:57.440 I

00:57:57.940 don't

00:57:58.240 think

00:57:58.500 it

00:57:58.660 necessarily

00:57:59.440 in

00:57:59.920 a

00:58:00.040 criminal

00:58:00.280 case

00:58:00.720 makes

00:58:01.220 a

00:58:01.380 huge

00:58:01.640 difference

00:58:02.280 but

00:58:03.320 there

00:58:04.180 is

00:58:04.420 no

00:58:04.680 doubt

00:58:05.020 that

00:58:05.460 if

00:58:06.140 you

00:58:06.300 got

00:58:06.540 a

00:58:06.680 lot

00:58:06.780 of

00:58:06.920 money

00:58:07.260 particularly

00:58:09.060 in

00:58:09.940 fraud

00:58:10.720 cases

00:58:11.440 where

00:58:13.120 sometimes

00:58:14.920 swilling

00:58:15.280 around

00:58:15.780 you

00:58:16.460 can

00:58:16.860 go

00:58:17.260 to

00:58:17.460 top

00:58:17.720 people

00:58:18.140 and

00:58:18.560 I

00:58:18.720 wouldn't

00:58:19.020 say

00:58:19.280 it

00:58:19.540 never

00:58:20.040 happens

00:58:20.580 but

00:58:21.480 I

00:58:21.640 would

00:58:21.920 say

00:58:22.360 I

00:58:22.740 do

00:58:22.980 not

00:58:23.360 think

00:58:23.840 that

00:58:24.200 it

00:58:24.500 is

00:58:24.840 a

00:58:25.340 big

00:58:26.100 problem

00:58:26.820 in

00:58:27.700 serious

00:58:28.840 violent

00:58:30.040 crime

00:58:30.740 which

00:58:31.340 is

00:58:31.480 the

00:58:31.620 end

00:58:31.820 of

00:58:31.920 the

00:58:32.060 market

00:58:32.320 that

00:58:32.540 I've

00:58:32.840 been

00:58:33.200 dealing

00:58:33.560 in

00:58:33.800 that's

00:58:34.180 very

00:58:34.420 interesting

00:58:34.820 Wendy

00:58:35.060 we've

00:58:35.380 got

00:58:35.620 about

00:58:35.800 five

00:58:36.080 minutes

00:58:36.300 before

00:58:36.540 we

00:58:36.720 go

00:58:36.920 to

00:58:37.120 questions

00:58:37.560 from

00:58:37.800 our

00:58:37.980 audience

00:58:38.320 on

00:58:38.500 locals

00:58:38.780 but

00:58:38.980 I

00:58:39.920 was

00:58:40.060 curious

00:58:40.540 we've

00:58:41.660 been

00:58:41.760 obviously

00:58:42.040 talking

00:58:44.920 have

00:58:45.080 in

00:58:45.180 this

00:58:45.340 country

00:58:45.680 would

00:58:48.080 you

00:58:48.780 say

00:58:49.180 that

00:58:49.480 the

00:58:49.700 British

00:58:50.040 criminal

00:58:50.640 justice

00:58:51.080 system

00:58:51.560 is

00:58:51.760 the

00:58:51.920 envy

00:58:52.160 of

00:58:52.320 the

00:58:52.440 world

00:58:52.740 I

00:58:54.800 think

00:58:55.000 it

00:58:55.140 is

00:58:55.520 which

00:58:56.540 is

00:58:56.700 not

00:58:57.160 to

00:58:57.520 say

00:58:57.920 we've

00:58:58.420 got

00:58:58.580 everything

00:58:58.960 right

00:58:59.380 of

00:58:59.700 course

00:58:59.880 it's

00:59:01.700 degrees

00:59:02.060 of

00:59:02.260 getting

00:59:02.460 it

00:59:02.640 wrong

00:59:02.920 isn't

00:59:03.220 it

00:59:03.440 we

00:59:05.760 have

00:59:05.980 a

00:59:06.080 criminal

00:59:06.340 justice

00:59:06.760 system

00:59:07.380 in

00:59:08.080 which

00:59:08.520 although

00:59:09.400 people

00:59:10.160 have

00:59:10.620 expressed

00:59:11.660 disquiet

00:59:13.380 and

00:59:14.180 the

00:59:14.480 strongest

00:59:15.360 disquiet

00:59:16.320 they

00:59:17.220 feel

00:59:17.740 able

00:59:18.760 to

00:59:19.000 do

00:59:19.160 that

00:59:19.600 and

00:59:20.180 to

00:59:20.400 point

00:59:20.680 out

00:59:20.980 what's

00:59:21.380 gone

00:59:21.620 wrong

00:59:22.060 and

00:59:22.720 to

00:59:22.900 demand

00:59:23.360 that

00:59:23.600 it's

00:59:23.840 put

00:59:24.100 right

00:59:24.580 deep

00:59:26.960 down

00:59:27.500 people

00:59:28.880 not

00:59:33.100 all

00:59:33.380 people

00:59:33.820 but

00:59:34.300 most

00:59:34.860 people

00:59:35.420 believe

00:59:37.080 that

00:59:37.800 we

00:59:38.000 can

00:59:38.220 achieve

00:59:38.880 something

00:59:39.740 approaching

00:59:40.260 justice

00:59:41.000 if

00:59:43.940 they

00:59:44.120 didn't

00:59:44.680 the

00:59:45.180 system

00:59:45.520 wouldn't

00:59:45.880 work

00:59:46.340 if

00:59:46.980 defendants

00:59:48.300 didn't

00:59:48.940 believe

00:59:49.600 that

00:59:50.020 they

00:59:50.220 were

00:59:50.360 going

00:59:50.700 to

00:59:50.980 get

00:59:51.280 justice

00:59:51.980 in

00:59:52.220 a

00:59:52.360 courtroom

00:59:52.700 they

00:59:53.780 could

00:59:53.960 put

00:59:54.160 a

00:59:54.320 stop

00:59:54.800 to

00:59:55.080 our

00:59:55.320 system

00:59:55.760 working

00:59:56.340 like

00:59:57.440 that

00:59:58.120 if

00:59:59.600 they

00:59:59.760 didn't

01:00:00.040 cooperate

01:00:00.520 if

01:00:01.340 they

01:00:01.500 didn't

01:00:01.820 instruct

01:00:02.720 their

01:00:03.340 solicitors

01:00:03.900 and

01:00:04.120 barristers

01:00:04.680 if

01:00:05.340 they

01:00:05.540 refused

01:00:06.140 to

01:00:06.340 get

01:00:06.540 into

01:00:06.820 a

01:00:07.000 van

01:00:07.260 to

01:00:07.480 come

01:00:07.700 to

01:00:07.920 court

01:00:08.300 if

01:00:08.800 they

01:00:08.980 refused

01:00:09.440 to

01:00:09.620 come

01:00:09.900 up

01:00:10.380 to

01:00:10.580 court

01:00:10.940 if

01:00:11.560 they

01:00:11.780 refused

01:00:12.240 to

01:00:12.460 listen

01:00:12.780 to

01:00:13.000 the

01:00:13.160 evidence

01:00:13.640 or

01:00:14.120 refused

01:00:14.560 to

01:00:14.740 give

01:00:15.080 evidence

01:00:15.700 if

01:00:16.340 they

01:00:16.560 refused

01:00:17.020 to

01:00:17.320 cooperate

01:00:17.880 in

01:00:18.740 the

01:00:18.940 trial

01:00:19.240 procedure

01:00:19.860 we

01:00:20.620 couldn't

01:00:21.000 make

01:00:21.220 the

01:00:21.400 trial

01:00:21.640 procedure

01:00:22.120 work

01:00:22.720 the

01:00:24.560 same

01:00:24.860 with

01:00:25.120 jurors

01:00:26.120 if

01:00:26.740 people

01:00:27.260 weren't

01:00:28.060 willing

01:00:29.320 to

01:00:30.160 give up

01:00:30.600 their

01:00:30.860 time

01:00:31.340 and

01:00:32.340 their

01:00:32.600 energy

01:00:33.140 to

01:00:33.700 leave

01:00:34.160 behind

01:00:34.700 their

01:00:35.000 own

01:00:35.320 problems

01:00:35.860 to

01:00:36.140 sort

01:00:36.480 out

01:00:36.820 society's

01:00:37.880 problems

01:00:38.420 we

01:00:39.400 couldn't

01:00:39.760 make

01:00:39.980 the

01:00:40.180 jury

01:00:40.420 system

01:00:41.020 work

01:00:41.680 so

01:00:42.380 there

01:00:43.540 is

01:00:43.760 an

01:00:43.940 inherent

01:00:44.720 belief

01:00:45.460 there

01:00:46.580 is

01:00:46.760 one

01:00:47.160 area

01:00:47.520 we

01:00:47.720 do

01:00:47.920 have

01:00:48.140 a

01:00:48.300 problem

01:00:48.640 with

01:00:49.060 and

01:00:50.060 that

01:00:50.320 is

01:00:50.700 certain

01:00:51.980 witnesses

01:00:52.500 in

01:00:53.640 certain

01:00:54.240 circumstances

01:00:55.220 being

01:00:56.200 frightened

01:00:57.000 to come

01:00:57.420 to

01:00:57.640 court

01:00:57.980 and

01:00:58.320 not

01:00:58.740 wanting

01:00:59.100 to

01:00:59.320 cooperate

01:00:59.820 judges

01:01:02.200 have

01:01:02.560 powers

01:01:03.100 to

01:01:03.340 make

01:01:03.600 it

01:01:03.800 easier

01:01:04.640 judges

01:01:05.800 have

01:01:06.120 powers

01:01:06.640 to

01:01:06.900 grant

01:01:07.340 anonymity

01:01:08.760 they

01:01:09.660 have

01:01:09.940 powers

01:01:10.620 to

01:01:11.140 allow

01:01:12.500 a

01:01:12.860 witness

01:01:13.200 to

01:01:13.460 give

01:01:13.640 evidence

01:01:14.080 from

01:01:14.400 outside

01:01:15.260 the

01:01:15.560 courtroom

01:01:16.080 in

01:01:17.000 certain

01:01:17.440 circumstances

01:01:18.500 they

01:01:19.920 have

01:01:20.240 powers

01:01:20.900 to

01:01:21.240 allow

01:01:21.860 the

01:01:22.460 evidence

01:01:23.100 to be

01:01:23.540 pre-recorded

01:01:24.820 both

01:01:25.460 in

01:01:26.800 chief

01:01:27.320 giving

01:01:28.200 the

01:01:28.420 account

01:01:28.800 to

01:01:29.020 the

01:01:29.160 crown

01:01:29.540 and

01:01:30.380 now

01:01:31.100 in

01:01:31.880 cross

01:01:32.180 examination

01:01:32.720 as

01:01:33.300 well

01:01:33.560 so

01:01:34.160 there

01:01:34.320 are

01:01:34.580 all

01:01:34.880 sorts

01:01:35.480 of

01:01:35.660 things

01:01:35.960 a

01:01:36.260 judge

01:01:36.520 can

01:01:36.800 do

01:01:37.160 so

01:01:40.760 there

01:01:40.940 are

01:01:41.140 many

01:01:41.440 many

01:01:41.700 different

01:01:42.040 problems

01:01:42.620 but

01:01:43.760 I

01:01:46.560 think

01:01:47.060 it is

01:01:47.640 true

01:01:48.320 that

01:01:49.140 people

01:01:49.600 still

01:01:50.260 believe

01:01:50.780 that

01:01:51.040 the

01:01:51.300 system

01:01:51.720 we've

01:01:52.100 got

01:01:52.500 with

01:01:53.400 all

01:01:53.560 its

01:01:53.780 faults

01:01:54.260 it's

01:01:56.120 slow

01:01:56.600 it's

01:01:57.520 expensive

01:01:58.320 but

01:02:00.000 with

01:02:00.280 all

01:02:00.700 its

01:02:00.960 faults

01:02:01.500 the

01:02:02.300 actual

01:02:03.040 system

01:02:03.660 in

01:02:04.100 the

01:02:04.340 courtroom

01:02:05.060 I'm

01:02:06.260 not

01:02:06.420 saying

01:02:06.660 what

01:02:06.820 happens

01:02:07.180 before

01:02:07.760 or

01:02:08.540 what

01:02:08.740 happens

01:02:09.080 after

01:02:09.540 but

01:02:10.200 the

01:02:10.420 system

01:02:10.780 in

01:02:11.000 the

01:02:11.260 courtroom

01:02:11.700 of

01:02:12.440 identifying

01:02:13.140 guilt

01:02:13.880 and

01:02:14.500 passing

01:02:15.100 a

01:02:15.340 sentence

01:02:15.880 I

01:02:17.360 hope

01:02:18.700 is

01:02:19.580 still

01:02:19.900 the

01:02:20.080 envy

01:02:20.360 of

01:02:20.560 the

01:02:20.680 world

01:02:21.080 very

01:02:22.460 interesting

01:02:22.800 so

01:02:23.080 you

01:02:23.360 you

01:02:23.660 retired

01:02:24.160 last

01:02:24.760 year

01:02:25.100 which

01:02:27.280 gives

01:02:27.580 you

01:02:27.740 some

01:02:28.040 leeway

01:02:28.500 to

01:02:28.800 say

01:02:29.180 you

01:02:30.060 know

01:02:30.140 I

01:02:30.280 did

01:02:30.460 this

01:02:30.640 for

01:02:30.800 many

01:02:30.980 many

01:02:31.200 years

01:02:31.660 if

01:02:32.440 I

01:02:32.700 were

01:02:33.000 in

01:02:33.220 charge

01:02:33.760 here's

01:02:34.340 one

01:02:34.580 or

01:02:34.740 two

01:02:35.020 tweaks

01:02:35.600 I

01:02:35.820 might

01:02:36.000 make

01:02:36.440 or

01:02:36.880 changes

01:02:37.340 I

01:02:37.580 might

01:02:37.740 make

01:02:38.020 what

01:02:38.420 would

01:02:38.560 they

01:02:38.680 be

01:02:39.000 one

01:02:40.360 of

01:02:42.300 the

01:02:42.420 things

01:02:42.660 I

01:02:42.840 would

01:02:43.080 do

01:02:43.720 and

01:02:45.360 it

01:02:45.480 echoes

01:02:45.820 what

01:02:46.080 I've

01:02:46.320 been

01:02:46.520 saying

01:02:46.940 before

01:02:47.460 is

01:02:47.920 I'd

01:02:48.120 go

01:02:48.300 right

01:02:48.840 back

01:02:49.380 to

01:02:49.660 the

01:02:49.840 schools

01:02:50.400 not

01:02:51.260 this

01:02:51.600 time

01:02:52.080 to

01:02:53.500 pick

01:02:54.100 up

01:02:54.320 the

01:02:54.780 youngsters

01:02:55.140 who

01:02:55.400 might

01:02:55.620 be

01:02:55.840 committing

01:02:56.160 crimes

01:02:56.820 but

01:02:57.680 because

01:02:58.400 I

01:02:59.240 don't

01:02:59.540 think

01:03:00.160 that

01:03:00.900 we

01:03:01.280 as

01:03:01.460 a

01:03:01.660 nation

01:03:02.100 understand

01:03:04.000 our

01:03:04.960 system

01:03:05.520 and

01:03:06.740 that

01:03:06.940 is

01:03:07.120 not

01:03:07.660 the

01:03:08.160 fault

01:03:08.500 of

01:03:09.260 the

01:03:09.680 nation

01:03:10.100 it's

01:03:10.700 the

01:03:10.900 fault

01:03:11.180 of

01:03:11.400 people

01:03:11.840 like

01:03:12.160 me

01:03:12.480 of

01:03:12.880 the

01:03:13.100 barristers

01:03:13.720 of

01:03:14.120 the

01:03:14.320 judges

01:03:14.680 of

01:03:15.340 the

01:03:15.560 system

01:03:15.980 the

01:03:17.400 system

01:03:17.720 is

01:03:17.860 there

01:03:18.220 for

01:03:18.700 people

01:03:19.220 and

01:03:19.740 we

01:03:19.960 ask

01:03:20.660 people

01:03:21.060 to

01:03:21.260 trust

01:03:21.580 it

01:03:21.840 and

01:03:22.260 we

01:03:22.480 ask

01:03:23.080 them

01:03:23.300 to

01:03:23.480 participate

01:03:24.080 in

01:03:24.440 it

01:03:24.580 as

01:03:24.860 jurors

01:03:25.480 as

01:03:25.800 witnesses

01:03:26.360 and

01:03:27.660 so

01:03:27.920 forth

01:03:28.360 they

01:03:29.800 are

01:03:30.380 entitled

01:03:31.540 to

01:03:32.280 understand

01:03:32.960 it

01:03:33.320 that's

01:03:34.220 why

01:03:34.420 I've

01:03:34.560 written

01:03:34.780 the

01:03:35.180 book

01:03:35.480 that

01:03:35.780 that's

01:03:36.200 what

01:03:36.360 it's

01:03:36.580 about

01:03:36.940 I

01:03:38.020 spent

01:03:38.400 years

01:03:38.960 as

01:03:39.200 in

01:03:39.820 addition

01:03:40.100 to

01:03:40.320 the

01:03:40.460 day

01:03:40.680 job

01:03:41.080 as

01:03:41.320 what

01:03:41.480 is

01:03:41.640 called

01:03:41.860 a

01:03:42.020 diversity

01:03:42.540 and

01:03:42.800 community

01:03:43.220 relations

01:03:43.920 judge

01:03:44.400 and

01:03:44.940 I

01:03:45.080 know

01:03:45.540 how

01:03:45.800 puzzled

01:03:46.480 people

01:03:46.940 are

01:03:47.480 by

01:03:47.760 the

01:03:47.960 system

01:03:48.440 I'd

01:03:49.300 go

01:03:49.460 right

01:03:49.760 back

01:03:50.060 into

01:03:50.300 the

01:03:50.540 schools

01:03:51.020 and

01:03:51.560 make

01:03:52.000 teaching

01:03:53.540 the

01:03:54.340 system

01:03:54.960 part

01:03:56.160 of

01:03:56.380 the

01:03:56.720 curriculum

01:03:57.260 part

01:03:58.460 of

01:03:58.860 civic

01:04:00.040 responsibility

01:04:00.960 and

01:04:02.400 I

01:04:02.600 would

01:04:02.880 teach

01:04:03.600 children

01:04:04.320 how

01:04:05.160 to

01:04:05.400 sit

01:04:05.680 down

01:04:06.200 in

01:04:06.620 groups

01:04:07.160 of

01:04:07.460 10

01:04:08.120 or

01:04:08.620 12

01:04:09.100 and

01:04:09.960 talk

01:04:10.560 through

01:04:11.060 an

01:04:11.460 argument

01:04:11.900 teach

01:04:12.940 them

01:04:13.200 how

01:04:13.520 to

01:04:13.940 listen

01:04:15.180 to

01:04:15.520 each

01:04:15.760 other

01:04:16.060 how

01:04:17.640 to

01:04:17.880 express

01:04:18.680 their

01:04:19.060 views

01:04:19.700 how

01:04:21.000 to

01:04:21.180 be

01:04:21.360 willing

01:04:22.000 to

01:04:22.420 adjust

01:04:22.920 their

01:04:23.260 views

01:04:23.700 without

01:04:24.080 losing

01:04:24.560 face

01:04:25.160 if

01:04:25.720 they

01:04:25.920 find

01:04:26.240 they

01:04:26.420 are

01:04:26.600 persuaded

01:04:27.080 by

01:04:27.380 another

01:04:27.720 argument

01:04:28.180 that

01:04:29.280 is

01:04:29.460 what

01:04:29.700 we

01:04:29.920 ask

01:04:30.220 jurors

01:04:30.800 to

01:04:31.000 do

01:04:31.280 and

01:04:32.160 they

01:04:32.320 come

01:04:32.700 to

01:04:32.960 it

01:04:33.240 blind

01:04:34.420 they

01:04:35.540 come

01:04:35.860 to

01:04:36.080 it

01:04:36.300 for

01:04:36.800 many

01:04:37.280 of

01:04:37.580 them

01:04:37.780 never

01:04:38.540 having

01:04:38.960 done

01:04:39.260 it

01:04:39.440 before

01:04:39.940 it

01:04:41.080 it

01:04:41.160 it's

01:04:41.920 a

01:04:42.640 credit

01:04:43.240 to

01:04:43.820 the

01:04:43.980 human

01:04:44.260 nature

01:04:44.780 that

01:04:45.420 they

01:04:45.620 do

01:04:45.880 so

01:04:46.240 well

01:04:46.640 but

01:04:47.200 we

01:04:47.400 could

01:04:47.580 make

01:04:47.800 it

01:04:47.940 a lot

01:04:48.580 easier

01:04:49.040 for

01:04:49.320 them

01:04:49.580 Wendy

01:04:51.400 it's

01:04:51.900 been

01:04:52.060 an

01:04:52.380 absolute

01:04:52.820 pleasure

01:04:53.220 thank

01:04:53.520 you

01:04:53.660 so

01:04:53.980 much

01:04:54.220 for

01:04:54.360 coming

01:04:54.540 on

01:04:54.720 the

01:04:54.860 show

01:04:55.080 the

01:04:55.680 final

01:04:55.920 question

01:04:56.240 is

01:04:56.380 always

01:04:56.560 what's

01:04:56.800 the

01:04:56.880 one

01:04:57.020 thing

01:04:57.260 we're

01:04:57.560 not

01:04:57.760 talking

01:04:58.100 about

01:04:58.420 as

01:04:58.860 a

01:04:59.000 society

01:04:59.480 that

01:04:59.720 we

01:04:59.840 really

01:05:00.060 should

01:05:00.260 be

01:05:00.500 I

01:05:03.060 would

01:05:03.280 like

01:05:03.540 to

01:05:03.740 pick

01:05:03.940 up

01:05:04.160 something

01:05:04.660 which

01:05:05.500 we

01:05:05.720 have

01:05:06.140 spoken

01:05:06.700 about

01:05:07.060 but

01:05:07.340 we've

01:05:07.560 only

01:05:07.780 spoken

01:05:08.180 about

01:05:08.560 it

01:05:08.740 in

01:05:08.940 terms

01:05:09.560 of

01:05:11.360 prisoners

01:05:14.300 and

01:05:15.760 that

01:05:16.080 is

01:05:16.500 problems

01:05:17.840 with

01:05:18.280 literacy

01:05:18.900 there

01:05:20.020 are

01:05:20.160 problems

01:05:20.580 with

01:05:20.820 numeracy

01:05:21.460 as

01:05:21.780 well

01:05:22.100 but

01:05:22.740 problems

01:05:23.440 with

01:05:23.740 literacy

01:05:24.380 in

01:05:25.000 our

01:05:25.520 society

01:05:26.180 are

01:05:27.140 real

01:05:27.840 50%

01:05:31.220 more

01:05:31.660 than

01:05:31.860 50%

01:05:32.540 of

01:05:32.860 those

01:05:33.220 in

01:05:33.600 prison

01:05:34.560 are

01:05:35.840 functionally

01:05:37.920 illiterate

01:05:38.440 or at

01:05:38.780 least

01:05:39.040 have

01:05:39.340 the

01:05:39.540 literacy

01:05:40.000 level

01:05:40.460 of

01:05:40.900 a

01:05:41.600 primary

01:05:42.000 school

01:05:42.400 child

01:05:42.980 and

01:05:43.620 a

01:05:43.760 young

01:05:43.980 primary

01:05:44.380 school

01:05:44.760 child

01:05:45.320 no

01:05:47.420 one

01:05:47.820 in

01:05:48.280 our

01:05:48.540 society

01:05:49.160 can

01:05:50.140 function

01:05:50.940 without

01:05:52.020 some

01:05:52.960 basic

01:05:53.720 literacy

01:05:54.400 skills

01:05:55.640 and

01:05:56.600 if you

01:05:56.800 think

01:05:57.400 about

01:05:57.720 what

01:05:58.000 you

01:05:58.160 are

01:05:58.400 deprived

01:05:59.080 of

01:05:59.620 and

01:06:01.300 I'm

01:06:01.820 not

01:06:02.060 just

01:06:02.300 talking

01:06:02.660 about

01:06:03.020 prisoners

01:06:03.580 right

01:06:04.580 across

01:06:04.900 the

01:06:05.120 country

01:06:05.560 it's

01:06:06.500 not

01:06:06.740 just

01:06:07.040 that

01:06:07.340 people

01:06:08.120 have

01:06:08.680 difficulty

01:06:09.240 with

01:06:09.540 dealing

01:06:09.840 with

01:06:10.040 everyday

01:06:10.480 things

01:06:11.100 what

01:06:11.280 if

01:06:11.400 you

01:06:11.500 can't

01:06:11.880 read

01:06:12.320 what's

01:06:12.660 written

01:06:12.920 on

01:06:13.100 a

01:06:13.280 label

01:06:13.740 when

01:06:14.820 you're

01:06:15.020 buying

01:06:15.380 something

01:06:15.920 in

01:06:16.300 the

01:06:16.480 supermarket

01:06:17.080 what

01:06:17.640 if

01:06:17.780 you

01:06:17.900 can't

01:06:18.300 read

01:06:18.660 the

01:06:18.840 letter

01:06:19.080 that

01:06:19.280 comes

01:06:19.600 through

01:06:19.840 the

01:06:20.020 door

01:06:20.240 that

01:06:20.460 says

01:06:20.740 your

01:06:20.920 electricity

01:06:21.500 is

01:06:21.820 about

01:06:22.100 to

01:06:22.260 be

01:06:22.400 cut

01:06:22.620 off

01:06:22.820 unless

01:06:23.140 you

01:06:23.380 do

01:06:23.700 X

01:06:24.380 Y

01:06:24.680 and

01:06:24.880 Z

01:06:25.020 what

01:06:25.760 if

01:06:25.900 you

01:06:26.040 can't

01:06:26.820 use

01:06:28.020 a

01:06:28.320 computer

01:06:28.860 what

01:06:29.440 if

01:06:29.580 you

01:06:29.680 can't

01:06:30.120 fill

01:06:30.540 in

01:06:30.720 a

01:06:30.880 job

01:06:31.140 application

01:06:31.860 what

01:06:33.240 if

01:06:33.420 you

01:06:33.580 can't

01:06:34.160 do

01:06:35.100 what

01:06:35.400 your

01:06:35.600 children

01:06:36.100 are

01:06:36.380 doing

01:06:36.640 and

01:06:36.860 learning

01:06:37.200 to

01:06:37.460 do

01:06:37.640 at

01:06:37.840 school

01:06:38.320 can't

01:06:39.080 read

01:06:39.580 to

01:06:39.820 them

01:06:40.060 can't

01:06:40.720 work

01:06:41.260 with

01:06:41.520 them

01:06:41.780 what

01:06:43.040 if

01:06:43.220 you

01:06:43.380 can't

01:06:43.980 remove

01:06:44.800 yourself

01:06:45.460 from

01:06:46.260 what

01:06:47.300 is

01:06:47.640 sometimes

01:06:48.780 a pretty

01:06:49.560 grim

01:06:50.400 reality

01:06:51.300 by

01:06:52.520 reading

01:06:53.760 a story

01:06:54.860 that

01:06:55.400 takes you

01:06:56.300 somewhere

01:06:56.880 else

01:06:57.340 you

01:06:57.920 know

01:06:58.020 guys

01:06:58.260 if

01:06:58.420 you

01:06:58.540 or

01:06:58.720 I

01:06:58.860 were

01:06:59.000 locked

01:06:59.260 up

01:06:59.460 in

01:06:59.580 a

01:06:59.760 cell

01:06:59.980 the

01:07:00.180 first

01:07:00.420 thing

01:07:00.640 we

01:07:00.860 do

01:07:01.260 is

01:07:01.780 ask

01:07:02.040 for

01:07:02.200 a

01:07:02.360 pile

01:07:02.620 of

01:07:02.820 books

01:07:03.220 what

01:07:03.940 if

01:07:04.080 you

01:07:04.200 can't

01:07:04.720 get

01:07:05.240 your

01:07:05.540 head

01:07:06.100 out

01:07:06.740 of

01:07:06.900 that

01:07:07.120 cell

01:07:07.540 because

01:07:07.860 you

01:07:08.060 can't

01:07:08.440 read

01:07:08.860 what

01:07:10.200 if

01:07:10.340 you

01:07:10.440 can't

01:07:11.080 talk

01:07:11.760 to

01:07:12.000 people

01:07:12.380 about

01:07:12.740 the

01:07:13.060 things

01:07:13.420 that

01:07:13.660 you

01:07:13.860 are

01:07:14.100 reading

01:07:14.720 can't

01:07:15.600 attain

01:07:16.460 a

01:07:16.660 better

01:07:16.860 job

01:07:17.340 or

01:07:17.640 any

01:07:18.260 job

01:07:18.860 because

01:07:19.440 you

01:07:19.660 can't

01:07:20.080 read

01:07:20.440 so

01:07:20.960 the

01:07:21.140 one

01:07:21.540 thing

01:07:22.140 I

01:07:23.020 would

01:07:23.260 tackle

01:07:23.760 because

01:07:24.360 I

01:07:24.580 think

01:07:24.860 it

01:07:25.040 hits

01:07:25.700 at

01:07:26.180 so

01:07:26.860 many

01:07:27.400 different

01:07:27.980 levels

01:07:28.540 is

01:07:29.680 the

01:07:32.260 different

01:07:32.900 things

01:07:33.520 that

01:07:33.800 people

01:07:34.280 lose

01:07:35.240 by

01:07:36.180 not

01:07:36.860 being

01:07:37.120 able

01:07:37.400 to

01:07:37.640 read

01:07:38.100 and

01:07:38.600 I've

01:07:38.820 actually

01:07:39.300 been

01:07:41.500 doing

01:07:41.860 a bit

01:07:42.180 of

01:07:42.360 work

01:07:42.760 now

01:07:43.080 I'm

01:07:43.380 retired

01:07:43.960 with

01:07:44.640 a

01:07:44.920 thing

01:07:46.060 called

01:07:46.340 the

01:07:46.520 Sheriff's

01:07:46.920 and

01:07:47.020 Recorders

01:07:47.520 Fund

01:07:47.880 in

01:07:48.120 which

01:07:48.320 we

01:07:48.540 have

01:07:48.700 set

01:07:48.960 up

01:07:49.140 a

01:07:49.320 specific

01:07:50.260 charitable

01:07:51.780 arm

01:07:52.660 to

01:07:53.260 deal

01:07:53.620 with

01:07:54.020 young

01:07:54.600 people

01:07:54.960 in

01:07:55.200 prison

01:07:55.580 who

01:07:56.480 are

01:07:56.600 having

01:07:56.800 difficulty

01:07:57.380 with

01:07:57.640 literacy

01:07:58.060 skills

01:07:58.720 that's

01:07:59.840 so

01:08:00.020 interesting

01:08:00.400 that you

01:08:00.720 say

01:08:00.900 that

01:08:01.040 I was

01:08:01.300 just

01:08:01.480 watching

01:08:01.800 the other

01:08:02.060 day

01:08:02.320 an

01:08:02.460 interview

01:08:02.760 with

01:08:03.200 a

01:08:04.540 drug

01:08:05.580 dealer

01:08:05.880 in

01:08:06.060 America

01:08:06.600 in

01:08:06.940 LA

01:08:07.280 I

01:08:07.500 think

01:08:07.780 his

01:08:09.380 nickname

01:08:09.660 was

01:08:09.860 Freeway

01:08:10.340 Ricky

01:08:10.640 he went

01:08:11.720 to prison

01:08:12.300 for

01:08:13.100 selling

01:08:13.560 millions

01:08:14.260 and

01:08:14.440 millions

01:08:14.660 worth

01:08:15.020 of

01:08:15.440 drugs

01:08:15.940 illiterate

01:08:17.020 and

01:08:18.100 he

01:08:18.280 learned

01:08:18.540 to

01:08:18.740 read

01:08:19.000 in

01:08:19.180 prison

01:08:19.540 he

01:08:20.580 read

01:08:20.800 a

01:08:21.180 whole

01:08:21.440 bunch

01:08:21.960 of

01:08:22.120 books

01:08:22.380 came

01:08:22.760 out

01:08:22.980 and

01:08:23.160 became

01:08:23.380 a

01:08:23.500 very

01:08:23.640 successful

01:08:23.960 business

01:08:24.260 because

01:08:25.860 he

01:08:26.780 was

01:08:27.040 smart

01:08:27.500 and

01:08:29.080 when

01:08:29.300 he

01:08:29.480 could

01:08:29.640 read

01:08:29.860 he

01:08:30.020 could

01:08:30.180 read

01:08:30.400 the

01:08:30.540 things

01:08:30.760 that

01:08:30.880 would

01:08:31.000 make

01:08:31.220 him

01:08:31.420 smarter

01:08:31.980 and

01:08:32.180 better

01:08:32.400 and

01:08:32.540 then

01:08:32.660 he

01:08:32.760 didn't

01:08:32.900 need

01:08:33.080 to

01:08:33.220 sell

01:08:33.360 drugs

01:08:33.660 to

01:08:33.820 make

01:08:33.960 lots

01:08:34.160 of

01:08:34.240 money

01:08:34.420 that

01:08:35.180 is

01:08:35.900 interesting

01:08:36.560 so

01:08:38.280 that's

01:08:39.500 one

01:08:39.720 of the

01:08:40.000 things

01:08:40.400 that

01:08:40.700 the

01:08:42.020 works

01:08:42.380 being

01:08:42.660 done

01:08:42.920 at

01:08:43.060 a

01:08:43.300 prison

01:08:43.900 for

01:08:44.200 young

01:08:44.660 people

01:08:45.140 on

01:08:45.360 the

01:08:45.520 east

01:08:45.780 side

01:08:46.080 of

01:08:46.240 London

01:08:46.600 people

01:08:47.340 between

01:08:48.140 the

01:08:48.360 ages

01:08:48.560 of

01:08:48.780 15

01:08:52.380 18

01:08:53.560 and

01:08:53.880 25

01:08:54.360 but

01:08:55.020 it's

01:08:55.980 one

01:08:56.160 of

01:08:56.260 those

01:08:56.480 things

01:08:56.840 that

01:08:57.000 I

01:08:57.140 think

01:08:57.380 people

01:08:59.080 like

01:08:59.440 me

01:08:59.780 really

01:09:00.760 ought

01:09:01.040 to

01:09:01.160 be

01:09:01.280 trying

01:09:01.600 to

01:09:01.780 help

01:09:02.040 with

01:09:02.340 that

01:09:02.720 and

01:09:02.860 a

01:09:03.040 million

01:09:03.240 other

01:09:03.560 things

01:09:04.080 fantastic

01:09:04.820 well

01:09:05.060 Wendy

01:09:05.280 we're

01:09:05.520 going

01:09:05.620 to

01:09:05.720 go

01:09:05.960 to

01:09:06.340 a

01:09:06.660 bunch

01:09:06.880 of

01:09:07.020 questions

01:09:07.360 from

01:09:07.620 our

01:09:07.840 supporters

01:09:08.280 that

01:09:08.620 only

01:09:08.940 they

01:09:09.120 will

01:09:09.260 get

01:09:09.420 to

01:09:09.540 see

01:09:09.660 the

01:09:09.780 answers

01:09:09.960 to

01:09:10.100 on

01:09:10.200 locals

01:09:10.440 but

01:09:10.720 unlawful

01:09:11.560 killings

01:09:11.940 like I said

01:09:12.780 I inhaled

01:09:13.400 it in

01:09:13.620 an

01:09:13.740 evening

01:09:13.980 it's

01:09:14.240 that

01:09:14.460 good

01:09:14.740 and

01:09:15.300 thank

01:09:15.540 you

01:09:15.660 so

01:09:15.820 much

01:09:15.980 for

01:09:16.100 coming

01:09:16.320 in

01:09:16.500 and

01:09:16.620 talking

01:09:16.840 to

01:09:17.020 us

01:09:17.140 really

01:09:18.140 appreciate

01:09:18.520 it

01:09:18.860 my

01:09:19.120 pleasure

01:09:19.400 thank

01:09:19.940 you

01:09:20.040 so

01:09:20.200 much

01:09:20.400 head on

01:09:20.880 over

01:09:21.000 to

01:09:21.160 locals

01:09:21.400 guys

01:09:21.800 have

01:09:23.800 you

01:09:24.000 had

01:09:24.340 any

01:09:24.680 case

01:09:25.140 that

01:09:25.780 made

01:09:26.020 you

01:09:26.180 lose

01:09:26.580 faith

01:09:26.960 in

01:09:27.120 humanity

01:09:45.660 thousand

01:09:46.320 dollars

01:09:47.060 richer

01:09:47.620 you

01:09:47.840 are

01:09:48.020 my

01:09:48.240 new

01:09:48.600 best

01:09:48.920 friend

01:09:49.300 are

01:09:49.500 you

01:09:49.680 kidding

01:09:49.980 me

01:09:50.520 yeah

01:09:51.240 it's

01:09:51.620 crazy

01:09:52.120 isn't it

01:09:52.500 get your

01:09:53.700 hands on

01:09:54.160 some

01:09:54.380 cash

01:09:54.940 at

01:09:55.340 boom

01:09:55.700 973.com

01:09:56.960 approved

01:09:57.660 by Alpine

01:09:58.320 Credits

01:09:58.800 own your

01:09:59.240 own home

01:09:59.600 and eat

01:09:59.820 alone

01:10:00.100 Alpine

01:10:00.560 Credits

01:10:00.940 can help

01:10:01.360 visit

01:10:01.640 alpine

01:10:02.000 credits

01:10:02.360 dot

01:10:02.660 ca

TRIGGERnometry - September 06, 2023

MURDER TRIAL JUDGE： Why Normal People Do Evil Things - Wendy Joseph KC

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