TRIGGERnometry - ＂They Never Wanted To Stop The Boats＂ Suella Braverman

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00:01:05.640 People are scared. They've lost faith in the government. They have no confidence in the

00:01:10.560 authorities. They're beginning to organize themselves, mobilize themselves and take the

00:01:15.940 law into their own hands. I was bound by a prime minister who didn't really want to stop votes.

00:01:21.880 He takes a very liberal view on migration, which is why he didn't want to cut immigration.

00:01:28.200 He was ambivalent about stopping the boats.

00:01:30.740 I mean, he once privately said to me that, why are so many people upset about the boats?

00:01:34.680 These people come here and work.

00:01:36.080 That's good for the economy.

00:01:37.780 Rishi Sunak said this to you?

00:01:38.880 Of course, yeah.

00:01:39.760 He said that to me when he was chancellor.

00:01:41.300 When Rishi Sunak was chancellor, he said, I don't understand why people are upset about the boats.

00:01:45.640 These people come here and work.

00:01:47.040 Yes.

00:01:50.000 Wow.

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00:02:06.420 So, La Bravham, and welcome back to Trigonometry.

00:02:08.720 Hello. Good to be back.

00:02:10.180 It's great to have you back.

00:02:11.280 Last time, of course, you came on the show shortly after no longer being,

00:02:16.520 let's say, a Rishi Sunak's Home Secretary.

00:02:18.800 Yes.

00:02:19.660 And a lot has happened since.

00:02:21.400 not least, you've written a book, which is why we're happy and keen to have you on.

00:02:26.000 But let's talk, you talk about your family history first in the book. And, you know,

00:02:31.720 with the where are you from question, which we'll touch on perhaps later. But interesting for us,

00:02:38.520 of course, and for our audience would be having left the Conservative government at the time,

00:02:43.920 you were still a member of the Conservative Party. And I remember asking you one or two

00:02:47.140 slightly more pointed questions. And you're being very diplomatic about your answers. You've since,

00:02:51.960 of course, left the Conservative Party. You've joined reform. So what can you tell us about

00:02:57.020 why the Conservative government failed this country, which I think universally is recognised,

00:03:01.940 including within the Conservative Party now, that you couldn't say at the time?

00:03:06.420 Yes. Well, that's a very good introduction because I actually wrote this book for all of

00:03:15.040 those people, including myself, who are bluntly furious with the last concerted government and

00:03:21.160 the last Labour government, but most recently last concerted government, for the damage that they did

00:03:25.820 to this country. And now I'm no longer in the concerted party. I am liberated to speak honestly

00:03:33.940 against what I see as institutional cowardice and deceit, frankly. I said it internally,

00:03:42.240 time and time again when I was Home Secretary, when I was holding a great office of state,

00:03:47.680 the most senior woman in the government, trying to get the Conservative government to do the right 0.77

00:03:54.140 thing on small boats, on visas, on Islamism, on anti-Semitism, on our streets. And it refused 1.00

00:04:04.380 time and time again. What is it? The Conservative Party, last Conservative Prime Minister,

00:04:09.640 Conservative cabinet members. And by that, I mean Rishi Sunak, I mean Jeremy Hunt, I mean

00:04:14.840 Kemi Badenoch, I mean Tom Tugendhat, many of those people who are still running the Conservative

00:04:20.520 Party today. And so what I said out in my book actually is, you know, from David Cameron through

00:04:27.100 Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Rishi Sunak, Kemi Badenoch, it's different faces, but it's the same

00:04:33.540 tactics. It's the same deceit. It's the same modus operandi, the same family. You know,

00:04:41.480 promise big, go big on the rhetoric, but deliver very small and actually fail people.

00:04:48.460 We had journalist Dan Hodges on the show recently, and I actually thought it was a great discussion.

00:04:52.780 He made some interesting points. But the one aspect of it that Francis and I both found quite

00:04:57.580 frustrating is when it came to the issue of small boats. And let's be honest, that issue is now

00:05:01.640 becoming the number one issue other than the economy, which is obviously huge as well for a

00:05:06.800 lot of people in this country, not just sort of the fringes of the right. It's gone mainstream,

00:05:11.800 fair to say. And there was this sense for what, no matter what we said, it was always, oh, it's

00:05:18.100 too difficult. It's too complicated. You can't do this. So you say, are you saying we should

00:05:21.860 invade France? You know, it's, it's all of that. You as Home Secretary were attempting to do

00:05:28.060 something. No offense to you in saying this, but you failed like everybody else. I failed.

00:05:32.480 I'm honest about that. Yeah. It's undeniable. Why is it such a difficult issue? Because,

00:05:38.360 so Ella, this may be a very simplistic, I'm just a normal person, maybe a very simplistic way of

00:05:43.060 phrasing it, but I just think about it like this. At any other time in history, if tens of thousands

00:05:47.960 of men, which is what this is, were coming into your country, some people would say invading your 0.81

00:05:53.080 country, you know, we can argue about that. Tens of thousands of people were coming on boats into 0.67

00:05:57.440 your island nation, the king of the country would organize a group of armed men to go down there and

00:06:04.820 stop it. At any time in history, that would have been recognized as the rational response. I'm not

00:06:10.820 saying we should do that today, but I'm just saying throughout history, protecting your borders

00:06:15.980 would have been seen as possibly at some points the only responsibility of the state, and certainly

00:06:21.620 its primary responsibility. How are we now in a position where even people like you who at least

00:06:28.100 want to do it can't do it? It's because of lack of political will. And so I was basically the

00:06:36.960 only Home Secretary who genuinely wanted to stop the votes and meant it. And what I came up against

00:06:42.860 and the reason why I failed was that I was bound by a prime minister who didn't really want to

00:06:48.800 stop the votes, a Chancellor of the Exchequer who didn't really want to stop the votes, a

00:06:52.580 Conservative Cabinet who lacked the political will. And what becomes very clear, and what I

00:06:58.300 blow the whistle on really, was it was all a performance. So it was all about talking tough,

00:07:05.780 you know, parroting and trumpeting the tough rhetoric, performing, but actually behind the

00:07:14.700 scenes, once the doors were closed, wholly lacking the requisite will to do the right thing legally,

00:07:22.120 politically and diplomatically. So what is the answer to this? Yeah, well, tell us,

00:07:25.980 because Dan Hodges says there's no way to solve this. He's wrong. OK, so how do you solve this?

00:07:30.560 Entirely a way to solve this. And you can see by what other countries have achieved.

00:07:34.360 It has been stopped in other countries. So what needs to happen? And this is what I was

00:07:38.280 banging my head against the brick wall on with Rishi Sunak and members like Kemi Vajanok and

00:07:44.680 everybody in the Conservative Party pretty much, was we first of all need to lead the European

00:07:48.260 Convention on Human Rights. I mean, I sound like a broken record on this, but I will keep saying it

00:07:53.840 until it is done, because I saw not just as a Home Secretary, but even before that as Attorney

00:08:00.860 General, and even before that as a lawyer working in the immigration courts before I was an MP,

00:08:06.120 how our human rights laws have been weaponised against the British people, and in particular

00:08:11.980 against the British state. So every time a home secretary wants to detain an illegal migrant or

00:08:19.940 deport them, she is met with infinite number of legal claims, many of which are fabricated,

00:08:27.900 but largely based on human rights grounds, namely Article 3 of the European Convention of Human

00:08:34.640 Rights. That's the prohibition against torture, inhumane and degrading treatment. So a migrant

00:08:39.220 will arrive with nefarious intentions for the UK, maybe from Afghanistan on a boat. We try and 1.00

00:08:46.280 deport him. He says, Article 3, if you send me back, even to France, or let alone Afghanistan,

00:08:53.420 you're violating my human right against torture because I'm just going to get tortured in

00:08:58.400 Afghanistan. And he can make up some political party that he's in. He can make up some kind of

00:09:05.380 of oppressor or grievance that there might exist in Afghanistan, but in Iran, if they're from

00:09:12.640 Iraq, if they're from Eritrea. Eritrea is the country of choice at the moment. If you come and

00:09:17.160 claim that you're from Eritrea, you've got a slam dunk appeal through the courts. So Article 3 is

00:09:23.780 often used as a way to stay into the UK and subvert the state's ability to deport. Article 8

00:09:32.540 is the other mischief in the European Convention on Human Rights. That's the right to a private 1.00

00:09:38.120 life. So someone might be here, they might be a foreign criminal, someone who's come here 1.00

00:09:44.100 and raped or murdered or dealt drugs. And we arrest them and we convict them for breaking 0.90

00:09:51.340 our laws. We put them in prison. But we say, hey, this person's from Jamaica. We want to

00:09:55.620 deport them back to Jamaica. And they say, Article 8, you can't deport me because I've got a baby.

00:10:02.540 I had a baby six months ago in the UK, and so if you send me back to Jamaica, you're violating my

00:10:08.060 human right to a family life. And generally, that will be a winning argument in the courts. And so 1.00

00:10:14.020 this Convention on Human Rights, which started out with noble aspirations and contains words with

00:10:20.960 which no one would disagree, the right to life. I don't disagree with the right to life. I don't

00:10:25.300 agree. I don't disagree with the right, the prohibition against torture. I agree with the

00:10:29.820 right for a fair trial, has been distorted, stretched, and expanded over the years so that

00:10:36.800 it has actually become a charter for illegal migrants rather than a document protecting

00:10:44.820 common sense, fairness, and human dignity.

00:10:49.180 So explain this to me, Suwala, because last time we talked about this, and since in your

00:10:53.560 commentary, and today, you say there was a lack of political will, Rishi Sunak, other

00:10:58.020 members of the Conservative Party. And the central argument in the book, as I understand it, and do

00:11:02.260 correct me, is that a lot of the reason that our governments and Whitehall, civil service, etc.,

00:11:07.980 refuse to deal with immigration is they see it as a way of rigging the economic stats, basically,

00:11:13.060 right? But that is not true of illegal immigration. And this is the bit that I've never understood in

00:11:17.640 this argument. What is the rationale for a Rishi Sunak or a Boris Johnson or whoever not to take

00:11:25.260 this path that you wanted to take? Because this can't be about the economy, right? This is

00:11:29.580 something else. So what's going on? Correct. So on the ECHR issue, I was the first

00:11:34.140 Conservative minister to say publicly, as Attorney General in 2022, that if we wanted to stop the

00:11:40.880 boats, we needed to leave the ECHR. Now, you might think, based on the premise of your question,

00:11:46.660 that if that was the solution, and I said that as a serving Attorney General and a former

00:11:50.900 barrister defending the Home Office in immigration cases, that would carry some weight. And

00:11:54.660 And people like Rishi Sunak and Kemi Begnaut would say, yeah, maybe we should do that.

00:11:59.600 Why did they refuse so violently?

00:12:03.220 They really, the opposition to it within the Conservative Party was very, very strong.

00:12:07.080 I was a fringe view in 2022, 23, even 24 to say we needed to leave the ECHO.

00:12:13.520 Why?

00:12:14.240 It's a rerun of the Brexit debate.

00:12:16.580 It's the same kind of argument as well.

00:12:18.720 You know, that would be diplomatically damaging for the UK's reputation abroad to withdraw from this international convention.

00:12:26.620 You'd be putting us in the same group as Russia and, you know, which was kicked out of the Council of Europe. 0.88

00:12:34.040 We don't want to be in the same group as Russia. You're destroying civil liberties. 0.51

00:12:39.380 How dare you say that we could leave the East HR? We're a respectable country that prides itself on civil liberties protections.

00:12:45.800 So those are the kinds of red herring arguments, all eminently rebuttable, but which are routinely trotted out by the Remainer wets, the establishment liberals, which make up the largest part of the Conservative Party to oppose leaving the ECHR.

00:13:04.400 And that was the, they won that argument. I lost the argument within the Conservative Party.

00:13:09.740 And, you know, that's why I left the Conservative Party, because they ultimately don't agree with that policy.

00:13:14.660 They say superficially that they've changed their mind.

00:13:17.000 Three years later, you know, they caught up with me and Kemi said, oh, actually, maybe Suella had a point and we should copy this policy because it seems to be quite popular.

00:13:25.500 And Reform's said it and Nigel's been saying it for years.

00:13:28.240 So let's just copy it and hope no one notices that we don't really mean it.

00:13:32.340 But the truth is that the vast majority of Tory MPs are implacably opposed to leaving the European Convention on Human Rights because of those reasons that I set out.

00:13:42.220 And, you know, it is a it is another big fat Tory lie.

00:13:47.560 Is, you know, I am old for people having different opinions about different issues and being opposed to policies on matters of rationality and principle and workability.

00:13:56.860 But those are some terrible arguments, aren't they?

00:14:00.060 Correct, I agree.

00:14:01.320 But they were compelling, and they still are compelling

00:14:03.980 amongst the liberal elites within the Conservative Party.

00:14:07.600 Why is that?

00:14:08.560 You're allowing...

00:14:10.040 We have up to potentially a million illegal immigrants

00:14:12.920 in this country at this point, and the number keeps going up.

00:14:16.160 Those are not good reasons for that to be happening.

00:14:19.680 They're just not.

00:14:20.200 They would all say...

00:14:21.460 So I had this argument countless times with my Conservative colleagues,

00:14:24.820 with people like Kemi Batenot, with Rishi Sunak,

00:14:27.420 And I recount my exchanges with Rishi Sun.

00:14:29.960 I would say, listen, Rishi, we're trailing in the polls.

00:14:34.460 You might call an election next year or the year after.

00:14:36.680 We've got this boats crisis.

00:14:38.160 It's the number one issue that people are furious about.

00:14:40.960 You've got to go big on it.

00:14:42.260 And he's like, yeah, I know I've got to make it priority.

00:14:44.840 That's why, you know, I'm coming up with a slogan, whatever it takes, stop the boats.

00:14:48.660 I'm having press conferences.

00:14:50.360 I've got this snazzy, you know, podiums and all these kind of events.

00:14:54.780 And I keep getting the headlines for it.

00:14:56.680 and I said well you've got to go you've got to go big on it and you know if you fix this you

00:15:03.160 you know it will be you might win the next election because this is a make or break issue

00:15:07.620 but what you've got to do to fix it is you do have to do necessary and some somewhat difficult

00:15:14.140 things you've got to leave the ETHR you've got to re-empower the British state to actually

00:15:20.980 detain at the border and deport. If you leave the ECHR, the Rwanda scheme will work. The whole 0.76

00:15:27.440 reason why we couldn't get those flights off the first time around was because of the ECHR. It was

00:15:33.640 because of judges in the European Court of Human Rights sat in Strasbourg, who at 11 o'clock on the

00:15:41.580 night of those planes on the tarmac waiting to take off, issued an injunction and said, no, stop

00:15:49.480 those flights, stop the Rwanda scheme. And then that was the fatal blow to the Rwanda scheme. 0.63

00:15:55.340 If we weren't a member of that court, those flights could have taken off. And we would have 0.84

00:15:59.600 started the whole Rwanda scheme with the accommodation ready and with the Rwandans

00:16:03.780 ready to cooperate with us. I went over there to see the buildings that were being constructed to

00:16:10.240 house these illegal migrants. It was all a very humane, UN-recognized scheme. All of that was 0.98

00:16:17.000 fatally flawed because we are scuppered by human rights laws applied in UK courts and the Strasbourg

00:16:22.860 Court. And I said to him, we've got to do this. And he said, well, you know, that would, it would

00:16:27.860 be, you know, we don't want to upset international law. It would be too, it's too radical. It's too

00:16:33.740 dangerous. And what he meant by that is there's too many Tories in the party, including himself,

00:16:39.700 who just didn't want to upset the apple cart. We're having this conversation, Suela, and we're

00:16:46.120 using the words radical, we're saying dangerous. But I'm telling you right now, there is a lot of

00:16:53.120 people out in the real world who are radicalized now. And the situation is very dangerous because

00:17:00.940 they have consistently demanded not only that immigration be lowered, but illegal immigration

00:17:06.940 be clamped down upon. It's not happening. So and we can see this with other aspects,

00:17:12.720 with people taking the law into their own hands.

00:17:15.240 And what concerns me is there's a lot of people going,

00:17:17.800 yeah, I agree with him, mate.

00:17:19.620 And that really, I'm sorry, but that's on the government.

00:17:22.500 That's on the Conservative government

00:17:23.580 and that's on the Labour government.

00:17:25.180 Correct. People are at the end of their tether

00:17:26.780 and they are on the brink.

00:17:29.580 And I really fear for public order

00:17:32.220 because you're right, Francis, people are beginning,

00:17:35.220 they've lost faith in their governments

00:17:38.180 to solve this crisis.

00:17:40.020 They see what's happening day after day.

00:17:42.720 And it is spreading in my constituency of Fair and Waterlooville.

00:17:47.000 Illegal migrants have arrived in Portsmouth, just on the edge.

00:17:51.900 We can see the waterfront from my constituency.

00:17:56.100 Two weeks ago, it was Portsmouth.

00:17:57.820 Last week, it was Gosport.

00:17:58.980 This is no longer contained to Kent and Dover.

00:18:03.000 This is everywhere. 1.00

00:18:04.400 And people are seeing the impact in their communities with asylum hotels, 0.53

00:18:09.920 women and girls getting attacked.

00:18:12.720 by illegal migrants. I visited Piddington a few weeks ago, and I met the women of Piddington who

00:18:21.360 were having sleepless nights, literally because of the prospect of over a thousand

00:18:27.340 fighting age, illegal migrant men being housed on the outskirts of this very small rural village

00:18:35.620 in Oxfordshire. And so people are scared. They've lost faith in the government. They have no

00:18:41.080 confidence in the authorities, and you're right, they're beginning to organise themselves,

00:18:46.140 mobilise themselves, and take the law into their own hands. And that is, you know, when we get to

00:18:53.120 that point, I really fear for public safety, and I fear for, yeah, as I said, public order.

00:18:59.280 I can't remember what day it was last week, but I think it was around about over 700 illegal

00:19:04.860 migrants came into this country. In one day. In one day. And then I'm seeing both online,

00:19:12.940 but also people that I know, the temperature really starting to rise. And my question is,

00:19:18.540 when are the government going to wake up? Because this situation, let's be frank,

00:19:22.680 it's only going to escalate. It is. It is only escalating. It's because the numbers are still,

00:19:29.800 you know, the government says, oh, well, there are fewer arrivals compared to last year.

00:19:32.960 as you say, the dinghies are getting bigger, the numbers per day are still incredibly high,

00:19:40.100 and the threat is getting closer to home. And so I think that, and people are getting more and more

00:19:47.880 furious about it. They're getting scared. They're scared and they're angry. And I'm scared and I'm

00:19:54.820 angry, actually. And having, you know, I served as Home Secretary, and I have no confidence in

00:20:01.000 the government. I have no confidence in the Conservative Party or this Labour government

00:20:04.600 to have the will or the ability to fix it. And that, you know, I understand why people are scared

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00:21:42.560 because it does. But also, when is the point, Suella, when we're actually going to tackle

00:21:50.760 this? Because this can't go on. At some point, the metaphorical rubber is going to hit the road.

00:21:56.260 And that's when it's going to get really worrying.

00:21:58.220 Yeah. Well, this is why, I mean, that's why I joined Reform.

00:22:03.220 I mean, I lost all faith in the Conservative Party.

00:22:08.560 I couldn't believe a word any of them said ever.

00:22:12.840 And so the only party which has the credibility,

00:22:16.980 which has been consistent on this issue, amongst others, is Reform.

00:22:22.720 And Nigel himself has been talking about leaving the East HR, you know, far earlier than I was.

00:22:31.560 He's the one who's pointed out the mass migration disaster. 1.00

00:22:36.240 Ten years ago, during the Brexit referendum, he stood in front of that poster and said that we're at breaking point because of the influx of legal migrants. 0.99

00:22:44.420 For all of that, for that courage, you know, he's been called all sorts of bad things.

00:22:52.460 he's been attacked physically, you know, he's been ostracized, demonized by the mainstream media

00:22:59.020 and the establishment. But he has never withdrawn from that fight to tell the truth for the British

00:23:05.920 people. And so I finally have, you know, thank goodness for reform, I finally have a political

00:23:11.360 home that I can have faith in on this issue. And the final question I want to ask on this issue is

00:23:18.660 They're coming from France.

00:23:20.480 Why are we not talking with the French government?

00:23:22.720 Why are we not going, look, we need to come to some kind of solution?

00:23:26.080 Why is it that they're just streaming over 0.99

00:23:28.060 and the French just seem to be perfectly happy,

00:23:30.880 if not kind of tacitly encouraging it? 0.94

00:23:35.080 You're right.

00:23:35.700 So as well as legal change and leaving the ETHR

00:23:40.200 and giving our immigration officers greater powers,

00:23:43.940 which is only possible if we leave the ETHR,

00:23:45.940 we actually also need a diplomatic solution.

00:23:48.120 And that is cooperation, genuine cooperation with the French. And again, I talk about it in the book, how I would, you know, talk and implore my French opposite number. At the time, it was Gerard Darmena, Interior Minister for France.

00:24:04.740 You know, and I used to tell him, this is a win-win, OK, for you and me. If you intercepted the boats, if you genuinely took border security seriously on your northern French coast, intercepted, detained and managed the illegal migrants, you, this would not only be a win for us on the UK side of the channel, but it would also be a victory for you.

00:24:28.300 because these migrants are heading in their thousands to the Calais and the Pas de Calais region

00:24:35.760 because they want to get to Dover. 0.95

00:24:38.200 And it's ruined that region of northern France.

00:24:41.580 The municipal authorities are furious with the French government

00:24:44.620 because not enough is being done.

00:24:47.760 There's crime.

00:24:49.060 There are large camps. 1.00

00:24:50.720 The Sangat camps basically still exist. 0.96

00:24:54.320 It's really damaged the area.

00:24:57.360 it's harm tourism, agriculture, safety, if that route was blocked off, those people would stop

00:25:05.140 coming to the northern French region. And they would try, you know, they basically, you would

00:25:11.540 kill that route. And so that would be success for you. This is a win-win. Unfortunately, and I think

00:25:18.560 this is a hangover from the Brexit wars, the French government were not, and are still not

00:25:25.860 serious about dealing with their illegal migration problem in the north of their country. They would 0.80

00:25:31.560 tell me that actually, honestly, for them, it's not their priority politically. Their priority

00:25:37.100 when it comes to illegal migration is on their southern coast, their southern border with Italy.

00:25:42.320 And they are more concerned and exercised by the influx of illegal migrants from Italy

00:25:46.780 into southern France. And for them, at the end of the day, if they're leaving France,

00:25:52.040 that's kind of quite convenient for them.

00:25:55.300 Well, this is what I was going to ask you.

00:25:56.500 If you can't close the entry,

00:25:58.520 maybe you open the exit.

00:26:00.400 That's what's happening in France at the moment.

00:26:02.520 They're sending these people to us 0.95

00:26:04.240 because they can't keep them from coming in. 1.00

00:26:06.360 Yeah, yeah.

00:26:07.140 And so, you know, we pay them,

00:26:10.200 we continue to fork out hundreds of millions of pounds

00:26:13.320 to the French.

00:26:15.640 We strike new deals every month, it seems,

00:26:18.540 saying there's going to be more drones on the channel

00:26:20.580 and we're going to share more intelligence

00:26:22.300 and this is going to stop the boats.

00:26:24.400 None of it makes a difference 0.91

00:26:25.880 because the French don't really want to stop this problem

00:26:29.260 because Macron has a grudge against the British after Brexit.

00:26:33.320 And he's definitely had a grudge against Boris Johnson

00:26:35.520 and any Conservative government

00:26:36.880 because he saw the Conservatives as responsible for Brexit.

00:26:39.940 But that's why, again, I don't know if you saw it,

00:26:43.160 an agreement was reached between Nigel Farage and Jordan Bardella.

00:26:47.480 Jordan Bardella is very likely to be part of the next French government.

00:26:53.100 And Bardella and his party actually do recognise the deleterious impact of illegal migration in France.

00:27:01.980 And they see that there is a real necessity for genuine Franco-Britannique collaboration on the channel to stop this.

00:27:10.880 And I think there's a real commitment that we've got there, albeit political, not legal, between Bardella and Farage.

00:27:17.680 So I want to touch on something that you've been commenting on.

00:27:20.760 Actually, I've sort of I've made some comments on the podcast with Fraser Nelson and about Rishi Sunak not being English.

00:27:27.900 And it all got very messy and it became a big public debate. 0.91

00:27:31.880 But I think these two things are connected because the level of mass migration we've had has forced it's well, it's that.

00:27:40.880 And then it's the identitarian politics we've had for the last two decades where everyone's been encouraged to think of themselves as their community.

00:27:50.000 You know, you're a British Asian and I'm a British Eastern European and a Francis, obviously, Venezuelan, as everyone knows.

00:27:56.100 Right. So we're all we're all members of a community instead of all being British.

00:28:01.140 And so now you've had waves of mass immigration.

00:28:04.020 The demographic proportion of the original British population has gone down significantly,

00:28:11.240 particularly in the big cities.

00:28:12.380 So they feel slightly more, slightly less secure.

00:28:15.240 You might say, I mean, even significantly less secure.

00:28:17.980 You've got identitarianism being encouraged.

00:28:20.780 And so now we're having to have debates on what it means to be English, what it means

00:28:24.080 to be British. 0.99

00:28:25.160 And I said Rishi Sunak is not English because he's a British Asian, which he is.

00:28:31.020 He's British and Asian.

00:28:32.000 And you kind of came to my defense, I think it's fair to say, and you talk about it in the book as well.

00:28:37.720 Can you just lay this out for people? Because the polls apparently are against us.

00:28:41.760 Apparently, most people, if you look at the polling, say that anyone can be English as long as they were born here, which may be true, maybe not. I don't know.

00:28:48.600 Well, it just seems that some people don't know who we are, literally.

00:28:52.080 And I think you're right. It is a consequence of the mass immigration experiment and the sense of cohesion, a sense of unifying identity.

00:29:02.000 has become harder to define. And there's Britishness on one hand, which is actually

00:29:09.380 warrants a really serious debate, which is not quite what we're talking about here.

00:29:13.120 But how we treat Britishness in this country is a scandal. Anyone can basically be British.

00:29:18.140 That's become a mere administrative box ticking exercise. You come here as a low school migrant, 1.00

00:29:25.920 part of the Boris wave uh you're um earning you know um working on the black market potentially

00:29:33.840 here for a couple of few years you can become you can apply to become a British citizen

00:29:38.260 pretty quickly and there'll be very few barriers to becoming a British citizen um

00:29:44.060 no no inquiry as to whether you actually love this country whether you've contributed to it

00:29:48.580 whether you are you know uh culturally um you know consistent with Britain uh compare that to

00:29:55.220 other countries, where they take a much more deferential view of their citizenship. Japan,

00:30:02.200 Singapore, to become a Singaporean, you've got to be a very high net worth individual who has made

00:30:07.360 a considerable contribution to the Singaporean economy. And only then, maybe, if you're lucky,

00:30:13.660 will you be granted their very special status as Singaporean, similarly with other countries.

00:30:18.660 So, but here, it's a free-for-all. Then we've got this issue of Englishness. And I agree with you,

00:30:23.460 I was, and I quote you in the book because the debate that you sparked was quite bemusing for

00:30:30.360 me. I'd never really thought about it. I'd never really questioned it. I've grown up with my

00:30:35.560 parents, my family, and we've never described ourselves as English. And my parents and our

00:30:44.180 social circle would never have described themselves as English. And I never described

00:30:50.060 myself as English. It feels very unnatural. It feels bizarre and strange and wrong for me to say

00:30:56.540 I'm English. Very happy to say I'm British. And I'm obviously of Asian, Indian ethnicity.

00:31:04.720 That seems to be, that's definitely the box on the census form that's available for me to tick.

00:31:10.680 And I've never questioned it until you made the point. And, you know, it triggered

00:31:17.820 a wave of liberal hysteria.

00:31:21.380 And I think it's...

00:31:22.780 One thing I would say is

00:31:23.800 when Rashid disagrees with you,

00:31:25.880 it's generally a sign

00:31:26.600 that you're on the right track.

00:31:28.780 You know, he seems like a nice guy.

00:31:31.100 Is he a nice guy?

00:31:32.240 He's a very nice guy, yeah.

00:31:33.460 He could have a cup of tea with,

00:31:34.560 but hopeless prime minister.

00:31:36.240 Well, it's interesting, isn't it?

00:31:37.580 And I think he strikes me

00:31:40.140 as someone who's the sort of repository

00:31:42.160 of all these well-meaning ideas.

00:31:44.740 But I don't think he really understands

00:31:46.820 the debate that's happening here.

00:31:48.640 I agree.

00:31:49.140 And I think the debate that's happening here is,

00:31:51.780 you know, a lot of white English people will,

00:31:54.560 no one wants to say any of this publicly,

00:31:56.200 but they will privately say that they really feel like

00:31:58.960 if anyone can be part,

00:32:00.760 it's like they're the only people

00:32:01.940 that are not allowed their own identity anymore.

00:32:04.700 And I don't understand why you would keep pressing on that.

00:32:07.800 It seems to me a very unwise thing to do.

00:32:10.740 Well, he personifies the liberal streak,

00:32:14.880 the cosmopolitan elites that make up the bulk of the Conservative Party.

00:32:20.880 And I'm not surprised he says this.

00:32:22.300 He takes a very liberal view on migration,

00:32:25.900 which is why he didn't want to cut immigration.

00:32:28.620 He was ambivalent about stopping the boats.

00:32:31.360 I mean, he once privately said to me that,

00:32:33.100 why are so many people upset about the boats?

00:32:35.300 These people come here and work.

00:32:36.680 That's good for the economy.

00:32:39.480 Rishi Sunak said this to you?

00:32:40.740 Of course, yeah.

00:32:41.620 He said that to me when he was chancellor.

00:32:43.180 When Rishi Sunak was chancellor, he said,

00:32:45.020 I don't understand why people are upset about the votes.

00:32:47.520 These people come here and work.

00:32:48.900 Yes.

00:32:51.640 Wow.

00:32:52.960 That's quite an extraordinary thing to say.

00:32:54.800 That's Rishi.

00:32:55.840 Well, it's not just Rishi.

00:32:57.140 It's not just Rishi.

00:32:57.860 Your argument is it's most of the Conservative Party.

00:32:59.800 It is most of the Conservative Party, absolutely.

00:33:01.360 So they take a liberal view on immigration.

00:33:03.720 And that extends, because they see it in economic terms.

00:33:06.100 They think more people coming into the country is good for the economy.

00:33:08.960 That liberalism extends to their view of citizenship, culture, and identity. 0.90

00:33:15.300 So they take a free-for-all.

00:33:17.440 Anything goes less a fair attitude to who can call themselves English and British.

00:33:21.780 And as long as you're here for a while, born here maybe, everyone's welcome.

00:33:26.520 Everyone in.

00:33:27.900 And that's not coming from a bad place.

00:33:32.080 I think that's coming from a, let's everyone join in together and be part of this Kumbaya joint project.

00:33:38.340 The reality, however, is it wholly denies that there are differences, ethnic and cultural, ancestral, in our country.

00:33:49.520 And it also denies someone like me my Asian heritage.

00:33:53.600 Why should I be forced to co-opt Englishness as an ethnicity or an identity when it's not in my blood?

00:34:01.260 I don't have English blood.

00:34:02.360 And I have, as the book sets out, and I've worked with a historian on my ancestry to fill out the details at the beginning of this book, I have my roots in India, in Mauritius, in Kenya via Mozambique.

00:34:16.560 There's a bit of Portuguese in there.

00:34:18.480 There's a hodgepodge, but there's no English. 1.00

00:34:21.300 And the thread is Britishness. 0.66

00:34:24.580 The thread is the British Empire.

00:34:25.680 My ancestors were subjects of the British Empire.

00:34:29.360 They fought alongside the British.

00:34:31.200 they worked with the British, they built with the British, they were educated by the British,

00:34:36.100 they were granted refuge by the British, they were given women in my family, were given the

00:34:41.520 right to vote, they were emancipated by the British. There is a very strong British connection

00:34:46.100 and so that's why I feel proudly British. But to say I'm English would be to, as you say,

00:34:55.140 deny a whole cohort of this country and erase a very important ancestral and ethnic identity,

00:35:07.240 which is linked to England. Homer wrote two of the most important books in Western literature.

00:35:14.020 The Odyssey is the one that's had all the attention recently for obvious reasons,

00:35:17.540 and the Iliad, the one about pride, rage and leadership, which is just as essential,

00:35:21.980 now has a free course from Hillsdale 2. Hillsdale College's new free online course is taught by

00:35:28.100 Professor Stephen Smith. It's not a highlight reel and it's not Homer for beginners. It's a

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00:35:37.640 means to live a noble life. You come away understanding why Achilles' real fight isn't

00:35:42.800 just with the Trojans, it's with himself. This is one of more than 40 free courses Hillsdale offers

00:35:49.120 on the Constitution, the Roman Republic, the American founding, Genesis, the Second World War

00:35:54.340 and more, all built the same way. Taught properly, not dumbed down. I couldn't recommend Hillsdale

00:36:00.740 courses more highly. Go to hillsdale.edu slash trigger to enroll for free. That's hillsdale.edu

00:36:08.800 slash trigger. One of the things that I think you're uniquely placed to do is to talk about

00:36:15.840 Britain in a comprehensive way. I think among the sort of chattering classes, the idea that 0.98

00:36:22.000 Britain is evil is now a sort of consensus position. It's sort of the a priori beginning 0.77

00:36:26.940 of the conversation, which I think if historians write about this period, if Britain in fact

00:36:34.480 survives this period, if they write about this period, they will say that people have gone mad.

00:36:40.460 What do you see about Britain that they don't? Well, that's another reason I wrote this book.

00:36:45.720 I wrote this book for those people who are fed up with being smeared as far-right racist thugs

00:36:51.740 simply for saying that Britain did a few good things for civilisation in the past,

00:36:59.020 that the British Empire was actually a force for good for millions, not billions of people,

00:37:06.180 for celebrating our heritage, our culture, our Christian faith,

00:37:11.700 who are fed up with being smeared as bigoted

00:37:15.320 simply for flying our national flag.

00:37:18.220 And this book is a challenge to that consensus view

00:37:23.680 which says Britain and everything about British history

00:37:26.580 and the British people and British culture is racist and evil.

00:37:29.740 So what is it that is great about Britain? 0.86

00:37:31.920 We need to stand up and challenge it.

00:37:34.080 And what is great about Britain?

00:37:35.760 Well, from our historical perspective,

00:37:37.940 as I said out in the book, the British Empire,

00:37:39.560 Yes, of course, there were mistakes which were made and there were indefensible wrongs, but there were also immeasurable good.

00:37:48.640 There was also immeasurable good that was done by British investment, British risk, British contribution, British service, not least ending and abolishing slavery.

00:37:59.600 And industrialising and developing whole parts of the country.

00:38:03.620 Mauritius is a great example. It was effectively a jungle outpost. 1.00

00:38:09.560 before the British came. The French were there and they laid some important foundations

00:38:13.340 and they started the development and generation of Mauritius. But the British, you know, put it

00:38:20.180 on rocket boosters and it became one of the biggest sugar producing countries or islands in

00:38:25.820 the world by the middle of the 20th century, thanks to British innovation, industry and

00:38:31.440 ingenuity. And that's just one example. Kenya is another example. Infrastructure, schools,

00:38:36.940 legal systems, democratic systems, all instituted by the British. And these are, 0.69

00:38:43.740 you know, small examples of the role that Britain played in global history, something

00:38:50.820 schools don't pay enough attention to in the classroom, and that young people are coming out

00:38:56.680 wholly unaware of. And I just think that from a historical perspective, but also from a cultural

00:39:02.320 perspective, I talk about my education, and it was in my classroom where I really fell in love

00:39:06.380 with Britain. It was through my teachers, you know, showing me the beauty of the great,

00:39:15.380 great English literature and great, beautiful British hymns, learning about our war heroes

00:39:25.060 and the bravery of, you know, during the Second World War primarily, that my heart was stopped

00:39:36.080 in admiration and gratitude for what Britain has done for the world and continues to do,

00:39:43.080 to set the standard, to stand for quality, for fairness, for decency, for

00:39:52.280 all of the great values that we cherish. But if you were to say this, you're seen as some

00:39:58.960 jingoistic pub boar who waves his union flag and is, you know, is a far-right thug.

00:40:08.900 That is, that's not reflective of what I believe the majority, the silent majority in our country.

00:40:14.200 You know, it's interesting. My four-year-old and I went on the train to London and for some reason,

00:40:19.760 this is, I promise you, this is not my indoctrination. He went into one of the

00:40:23.880 tourist shop in London on a previous trip and demanded that I buy him the biggest British flag

00:40:27.880 that was in there.

00:40:29.100 So there's this four-year-old walking around.

00:40:32.020 Well, I have had nothing to do with this.

00:40:34.400 Genuinely.

00:40:34.600 He's in a fascist, mate.

00:40:36.080 Exactly.

00:40:36.840 He's far right.

00:40:37.500 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:40:38.200 He might get kicked out of school.

00:40:39.600 But we were on the train

00:40:40.680 and literally everybody that walked past

00:40:43.400 and looked at him had a really happy smile.

00:40:47.280 I was just clocking it.

00:40:49.100 People were really happy to see a little boy

00:40:51.140 with a British flag.

00:40:52.640 I think the vast majority of people

00:40:54.140 just don't see the world in this way.

00:40:56.000 So it's extraordinary to me

00:40:57.340 that the media and elite discourse is so perverted in relation to the general ordinary member of the

00:41:06.020 public. And I call for in this book a muscular reassertion of our cultural confidence in Britain

00:41:13.380 because I think there's been a quiet complacency amongst most people about the virtue of Britain

00:41:20.720 and Britishness and British history and culture. 0.95

00:41:23.620 But I think that's been abused now by immigration, 1.00

00:41:28.800 by people coming to this country who don't want the best for our country, 0.99

00:41:32.360 and by an elite, an establishment elite, the luxury beliefs class,

00:41:37.200 to quote Rob Henderson, who are of the left generally

00:41:46.180 and therefore take a predisposed view that looks at Britain, Britishness in a very negative way

00:41:55.700 and says what other cultures are somehow superior to the British way of life

00:42:00.580 and that we've got to bend over backwards and we mustn't come across as racist

00:42:03.840 and we mustn't protect or preserve what's ours.

00:42:07.360 And, you know, a fortress Britain is a very bad state of affairs 0.85

00:42:11.660 and we've got to roll out the red carpet to other cultures. 0.83

00:42:14.420 we've got to bend the knee to others even if they are doing us harm and we've got to appease those

00:42:19.840 appease our enemies frankly and um that's an elite i think and fringe view which is percolating

00:42:26.700 into our institutions through the kind of woke left-wing ideology and i think it's it's harming

00:42:34.020 it's actually killing people it's actually killing people because from that you get things like race

00:42:40.000 action plans in the police force and the BLM movement which says um that we shouldn't stop 0.96

00:42:48.680 and search people because we're institutionally racist and um we've got to prefer black people

00:42:56.180 over white people and you know the appalling way Henry Novak was treated the way those police

00:43:02.880 officers behaved on the ground has its origins in all of this cultural distortion that you're

00:43:08.600 talking about. So moving on now, Suella, we've got, you're currently with reform and reform has

00:43:16.440 been going through a challenging time, hasn't it? There have been scandals, the financial scandals,

00:43:22.180 the Sunday Times expose. What have you made of it being an insider in the party?

00:43:27.560 Well, thank goodness for reform is all I can say. I was feeling a high level of despair

00:43:32.720 and political dislocation and homelessness, really, after 2023, when I came to talk to you.

00:43:40.240 I had, as I said, no faith in the Conservative Party. And I'm someone who is a patriot and

00:43:46.300 is grateful to all those patriots and wants to feel confidence in a political party that

00:43:52.600 is not scared to be patriotic, to put it simply, that's not scared to do the necessary work to 0.84

00:43:59.700 secure our borders, for goodness sake, that's not going to appease Islamists, that is going to

00:44:04.480 arrest grooming gangs, not turn a blind eye to them because they might look racist, which is 0.70

00:44:10.500 actually going to ban the IRGC, not let them come into the country and rip our country apart. So 0.71

00:44:16.280 I feel very grateful that reform exists. And I will take any challenge, I'll take 10 challenging

00:44:25.160 days in reform and all of these scandals that they throw at us over one day at the Conservative

00:44:31.220 Party anytime because the reform party is defined by credibility. That's what it's got. Nigel Farage

00:44:37.700 and everybody who's in reform is not in it for status, titles, optics. They're in it to do the

00:44:45.160 right thing. And that's what really gives me hope. These are people who are, and I've met a lot of

00:44:52.100 people in the last nine months that I've been in the party, people who've put themselves forward

00:44:56.400 for candidacy at the local elections, I'm really struck by one thing. They're not career politicians.

00:45:02.120 The People's Army, we're the largest political party in the country now. The people joining

00:45:06.560 reform are those who have not been politically active before. Many people have not voted before.

00:45:13.560 They've assumed that it doesn't make a difference, there's no point. But something's stirred in them.

00:45:19.540 something is happening that you talk about and a lot of these people instead of taking to the

00:45:26.480 streets in anger they're joining reform because they see this as the last chance to save Britain

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00:46:48.440 Look, the issue is, there was a YouGov poll released last week, which had, at the same

00:46:54.800 time a year ago, 27% of the electorate were going to vote reform.

00:46:59.420 That's now down to 22%.

00:47:01.040 And I think the financial scandals have played a part in this.

00:47:06.020 people have looked at it and said, are they just another political party? Are they just another

00:47:11.920 sleaze and scandal party? No, is the answer to that. I think Nigel himself, if he was sitting

00:47:19.700 here, would be the first to admit we're a new party. So we are developing and we're in the

00:47:24.160 process of expanding and professionalising. And will some things go wrong sometimes? Yes,

00:47:32.000 of course they will. You will see the progress so far. We're autumn 2026, just in the space of two

00:47:37.940 years. And since 2024, the progress has been exponential. And you could say, well, reform got

00:47:45.800 it wrong with their candidate selection in 2024, because our processes weren't, you know, were

00:47:52.380 immature. That whole piece of work has been done, and that's all been fixed now. And we have very,

00:47:59.780 very good caliber candidates coming through a very rigorous process. And I'm very, I'm very

00:48:06.300 excited about the cohort of people who will be putting themselves forward to stand for us at the

00:48:11.380 next general election. Brilliant people, talented, who have expertise outside politics. You know,

00:48:17.040 so funding, you know, we were never a new party. And yet we've, in the space of two years, have

00:48:25.580 secured the record, the largest ever donations in political history. That's phenomenal. So I think

00:48:32.260 that that is a big vote of confidence, but we are developing. And we're up against a very hostile

00:48:39.180 media as well, because just as you talk about those establishment elites, those left-wing,

00:48:47.200 you know, bourgeois kind of mainstream

00:48:51.500 that is intent on,

00:48:54.040 which believes in open borders

00:48:55.340 and that Britain is evil.

00:48:56.420 It's also the same group of people

00:48:57.500 that believes that reform is bad news

00:48:59.500 and they will do anything

00:49:01.220 to try and stop reform.

00:49:03.520 They've tried to call us racists for years.

00:49:06.320 They've seen that that's not quite working.

00:49:08.440 Now they're trying to say that we're corrupt.

00:49:11.080 That won't work.

00:49:12.420 They're trying to rig the rules.

00:49:14.300 They're trying to change the rules on donations.

00:49:15.780 So they want to make up, they're making us...

00:49:17.820 Sorry to interrupt, but I think it's an important point.

00:49:19.780 You say it won't work, but I think France's point is that it has worked.

00:49:24.300 Well, we haven't had an election.

00:49:25.640 Let's see what happens at the next set of elections.

00:49:27.980 Sure, and by the way, you know, reform getting 100 seats at the next election

00:49:33.080 would be an amazing result.

00:49:34.280 Historically speaking, kind of unprecedented.

00:49:36.060 Reform getting 40 seats from five would be amazing.

00:49:40.820 But the problem is, if you say it's the last chance to save the country,

00:49:44.840 that's not going to get you into government

00:49:46.320 and you're not currently on course to form the next government.

00:49:49.260 Well, I actually think that those polls don't actually reflect what I see.

00:49:54.320 You know, and again, the polling companies,

00:49:56.980 I have to say some of the polling companies

00:49:59.180 don't necessarily behave in the best way either.

00:50:03.180 I think they suppress reform support.

00:50:05.740 I think they amplify other kind of support.

00:50:07.360 Definitely some of the parts of the mainstream media do that.

00:50:09.640 So I think I'm not persuaded by what one set of polls says.

00:50:13.440 There's equally other sets of polls which say different things.

00:50:17.960 So the polls are varying all the time.

00:50:20.960 It's also prediction markets as well, Suella,

00:50:23.180 which show that there's an increase in support for the Conservative Party.

00:50:26.640 There's a burn and bounce.

00:50:27.660 Now, we'll see how long that lasts.

00:50:30.060 But also we have to look at the impact of Restore as well.

00:50:32.860 I mean, that can't be denied.

00:50:35.600 Well, I mean, I think, again, this is what I say to people on the right.

00:50:40.740 the next election will be probably, almost definitely,

00:50:46.320 the most consequential general election of my lifetime.

00:50:49.480 And the choice will be very, very clear.

00:50:51.800 We will either have the choice of more socialism,

00:50:55.240 some combination of left-wing parties,

00:50:58.140 and that means more poverty, more taxes, more immigration,

00:51:03.420 more weakness, and it may well be an irretrievable situation.

00:51:10.740 after five more years of socialism or we can begin the renewal and the fight back and only

00:51:18.280 reform can beat labour and so to everyone on the right to those conservatives who might like

00:51:24.400 and think oh you know I'll I'm staying on the conservative boat even when it goes down you

00:51:32.020 are basically voting for socialism if you want to stop labour if you want to stop um the socialism

00:51:38.860 the socialist destruction of our party. There's no time for nostalgia. There's no time for

00:51:44.840 sentimentality about the Conservative Party. There's no time to be emotional about the

00:51:48.660 Conservative Party. It's reform that is the only party that's viable as a prospect to beat Labour.

00:51:55.020 If you're thinking, well, you like Rupert Lowe, you like the cut of his jib, and you think he's

00:52:00.100 the real McCoy, you're not living in the real world. They can't win. And so, however idealistic

00:52:08.440 you may be, the only vehicle that can stop this disaster is to vote reform. And so there needs to

00:52:15.200 be a coalescence around reform. The Conservatives cannot win in Wales. They are just not a viable

00:52:22.440 prospect. They're on 120 seats. They need to more than double that if they have any chance.

00:52:27.300 How are they going to do that? They're dead in Wales. They've got a handful of seats in Scotland.

00:52:33.060 The northern Midland swathe of the Red Wall, Blue Wall

00:52:36.640 that got Boris into number 10 has gone.

00:52:40.260 That is not voting Conservative.

00:52:42.420 They are reduced to regaining some of the posher parts

00:52:46.300 of London and the home counties.

00:52:48.520 That is not a formula.

00:52:50.100 That is not a route to number 10.

00:52:52.140 And so anyone who, if your objective is to beat socialism

00:52:58.720 and save the country, it's got to be reform.

00:53:01.460 Some people might say if your objective is to beat socialism, then the right needs to unite.

00:53:08.620 And I would say that's basically what I've said, I think, to all of those voters on the right who are, you know, interested in restoring.

00:53:17.140 You know what I meant, though. I didn't mean the voters.

00:53:18.580 Emotionally bound to the conservatives. I get it. I mean, I was a conservative for 30 years.

00:53:22.520 It took me a long time to break the ties. And a lot of it was because of relationships.

00:53:26.980 I'd definitely fallen out of love with the National Party.

00:53:31.220 That was clear for me.

00:53:32.760 But it was the individual relationships with people that I'd had for decades.

00:53:38.660 They're like a family.

00:53:39.680 It was people in my local area.

00:53:41.680 It was my mum and dad, for goodness sake.

00:53:43.560 My mum was a Tory councillor.

00:53:44.960 She stood as an MP.

00:53:45.920 You know, it's in my family.

00:53:47.100 It was breaking and severing of those ties that held me back.

00:53:50.840 And I think that's the same for a lot of people who are still with the Conservative Party.

00:53:53.280 So they can't contemplate upsetting their friends or, you know, moving to a different team, basically.

00:54:00.480 And I think that's all respectable and understandable.

00:54:04.760 But it's the country's future at stake.

00:54:06.620 It's the future for our children at stake.

00:54:09.080 And if you want to save the country, you've got to put realism ahead of emotion.

00:54:16.560 And that's why they have to unite behind reform.

00:54:19.420 But wouldn't you say you need to have realism?

00:54:22.060 Look, the simple truth is, and personally, I've always gone very well with Nigel.

00:54:27.240 I like Nigel.

00:54:28.940 The issue is, is that Nigel is a Marmite flavor.

00:54:32.500 There are people who have voted conservative all their lives who consider Nigel too much for them.

00:54:39.040 That's just how it is.

00:54:40.200 And there's a significant amount of people.

00:54:42.380 There's also people, and there's a growing amount, which have been radicalized by the small boats crisis,

00:54:48.740 who go, actually, reform are too wishy-washy.

00:54:53.740 We need a harder edge.

00:54:55.340 Desperate times calls for desperate measures.

00:54:57.860 So the question I think we're really posing to you, Suella,

00:55:01.060 is are you going to be able to work together?

00:55:03.940 Because I look at the left and I think to myself,

00:55:07.200 they're going to work together.

00:55:08.520 And if you're not, we're in dire straits.

00:55:13.800 I don't, I mean, listen, I mean...

00:55:17.040 You know we're making good points.

00:55:21.120 You have to make me feel good, don't you?

00:55:23.840 Listen, I genuinely feel that I...

00:55:27.500 If you read that book, you will see that

00:55:31.100 the Conservative Party just cannot be trusted.

00:55:36.120 It's a different face, but it's the same family

00:55:38.420 and it's the same way of promising and lying.

00:55:42.560 And it's all about the optics and all about what looks good

00:55:45.280 and the polling and the lobby groups.

00:55:47.320 But it's all insincere and it's all a performance.

00:55:50.620 They're very good at the speeches.

00:55:52.240 They're very good at the press conferences.

00:55:55.060 They're very good at the show of politics.

00:55:58.300 But behind it, it's all a charade.

00:56:00.620 And this is why I am so grateful for reform.

00:56:05.000 And Nigel, they're not in it for the show.

00:56:08.620 Nigel's been saying, talking about the immigration crisis for decades.

00:56:13.640 before it was a mainstream view, before the Times colonists agreed with him.

00:56:18.840 And for that, he's been called a racist and he's been called all sorts of things,

00:56:22.520 but he's kept going.

00:56:23.520 He was the first mover on saying the European Union was destroying our democracy.

00:56:27.880 For that, the establishment tried to shut him down and he's not given up.

00:56:33.080 And I think that takes a special kind of courage and resilience,

00:56:37.380 which is unique in British politics right now.

00:56:39.640 All of these politicians are so plastic and they're so superficial and they just are following

00:56:45.960 the latest fad and they want to get on the latest bandwagon to get a little high in the polls or a

00:56:51.940 headline on the papers or a puff piece. But it's not real. And I saw that up close. I saw that with

00:56:59.520 Rishi. I saw that with Kemi, with Boris, with Cameron. It's all about the show. And I think

00:57:06.780 that the way I put it, you know, the Conservative Party is like a cheating partner. You know, he

00:57:13.340 keeps breaking your heart with other women, and he keeps coming back with a bunch of flowers and

00:57:19.180 a box of chocolates. And he says, honey, I'm really sorry. I'm a changed man. I won't do it again.

00:57:23.840 And you forgive him. And then he goes and does it again. And you keep yourself for forgiving him.

00:57:29.580 And that's the Conservative Party keeps doing. I'm changed. I won't do it again. I promise.

00:57:34.920 but they do it again. The reform parties, like that guy who's kind of walked through fire for

00:57:43.100 you, is a bit bruised and battered, but is the real deal because he'll go through the swamp for

00:57:51.460 you, and he'll do what's necessary. He'll say what's necessary. He means it with his heart and

00:57:57.180 soul, and he's been right. And that's why reform exists. It's the faithful heart of the country.

00:58:07.200 And they haven't, you know, Nigel's not reneed, he's not flip-flopped, he's not followed the fads.

00:58:13.320 That's what reform attracts. It attracts those people who have that sincerity of spirit

00:58:17.900 and who are not in it for titles and status and power. It's the real deal. And yeah, are there a

00:58:24.480 few growing pains and do some things need to be fixed of course of course and that's what we're

00:58:29.480 doing and it's professionalizing at a rapid speed but the fundamentals are all there and the British

00:58:35.260 people can see it well you know in terms of Nigel this is actually something I when people ask me I

00:58:40.460 go like whatever you think about him the one thing you can't accuse him of is being in it for for

00:58:46.820 money or whatever because he was doing very well in the city and then he basically went and stood

00:58:53.160 and lost, I think he lost his deposit and, you know, just pursued a very unpopular cause

00:58:57.800 because he believed in it. So that part of it, I get, but you're a bright woman. You know what

00:59:03.820 we're asking. I mean, if you want to talk about being realistic, there is a very realistic

00:59:09.200 prospect that come the next election, despite the beautiful story about the cheating boyfriend and

00:59:15.520 all the rest of it that you tell us, a lot of people will remain with the Conservative Party.

00:59:20.420 It may be small. It may be 40 seats or 50 seats or 100 seats. And you need those seats to form a government. And so the question is, will reform, if that happens, or even in advance of that, be open to some kind of electoral pact or after the fact, come together in the interest of the country and say, OK, you know, this guy, not very reliable, but we're in charge.

00:59:45.320 They're the minor partner in this coalition.

00:59:47.860 We can deliver on our agenda because, as you say yourself,

00:59:51.300 the alternative is socialism.

00:59:53.840 No deal. No deal.

00:59:55.920 Do you prefer socialism to a deal with Victorias?

00:59:57.440 Now, how can I go back to and work with a fundamentally dishonest partner?

01:00:03.080 How can you do that?

01:00:04.800 That's like, oh, well, I'm just going to overlook

01:00:06.520 all your previous misdemeanours, your history of chronic deceit.

01:00:11.080 This is actually your personal here.

01:00:12.620 Am I touching an earlobe?

01:00:16.640 No, actually no.

01:00:18.320 But I feel guilty just by the way you present this case.

01:00:21.660 Don't worry, as your lawyer, I advise you.

01:00:23.340 You don't have to address any of these claims.

01:00:25.080 Don't confirm or deny.

01:00:28.300 Yeah, how could we do that?

01:00:30.100 They don't have clean hands.

01:00:33.540 How can they be an honest broker or honest partner?

01:00:35.700 But then you're ushering in the socialism you abhor so much.

01:00:38.260 Well, that's what I say to people.

01:00:39.180 I think the choice, as I said, will be clear.

01:00:40.940 will be clearer for people at the time of an election.

01:00:43.960 Right now, it's more opaque because, you know,

01:00:47.540 people are looking at all of the options

01:00:50.660 and they don't need to decide yet.

01:00:52.540 But I think when minds are focused at the ballot stations,

01:00:58.860 then I think people will, the choice will be very, very clear.

01:01:01.620 All right, fine. We've pressed you on this a fair bit.

01:01:03.580 There's one thing that I always ask people from your party

01:01:06.160 whenever we have you on.

01:01:07.360 And I think, actually, this is a really important question.

01:01:10.020 I don't hear it talked about a huge amount.

01:01:12.220 I see Robert Jenrick, your economics person,

01:01:15.300 talking about it a little bit more.

01:01:16.900 But it seems to me like there's a big challenge for reform

01:01:20.960 in that I think the leadership of your party, including yourself,

01:01:25.620 probably when it comes to the economy, are in favor.

01:01:29.000 I would imagine, correct me if I'm wrong,

01:01:31.100 you think taxes are too high.

01:01:33.040 You think business is constrained by regulation, etc.

01:01:35.860 You think that the economy is suppressed and needs to be unleashed.

01:01:40.140 There's too much government, too much interference, too much of all of that, too much welfare, etc.

01:01:46.700 Yes, of course.

01:01:48.580 But at the same time, a lot of the people who are coming to your party are left wing on economics.

01:01:54.500 They want redistribution.

01:01:56.940 They want the big safety net.

01:01:58.740 They want the NHS.

01:02:00.040 They want all the things that British people have become used to.

01:02:03.060 and that seems like quite a tough circle to square square to circle because the British

01:02:11.860 public are left-wing in economics and you guys are not. The people who watch this show have

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01:03:38.060 The British public are left-wing in economics and you guys are not.

01:03:42.920 I would challenge that to the degree that most of the people coming to us are left-wing on economics.

01:03:48.740 Yes, we're winning in many of those formerly Labour heartlands, which went Conservative at the last election.

01:03:55.660 and we're winning in, we're doing very well in places like Wales and Essex and Norfolk and

01:04:03.320 Suffolk and, you know, industrial heartlands. But I would dispute the fact that those people

01:04:09.400 are left-wing. I would say that they might have historically been Labour voters, possibly,

01:04:15.080 but they want lower taxes. They are people who are, you know, working class people who want

01:04:21.420 to take home more of what they're earning.

01:04:24.700 They are people who see an out-of-control welfare bill, 0.52

01:04:29.980 billions of pounds spent on illegal migrants, 1.00

01:04:33.100 wages being suppressed because of an influx of foreign workers,

01:04:37.840 and they are fed up with that.

01:04:41.060 I meet a lot of these people in my own constituency, actually.

01:04:44.920 Just a few weeks ago, I met a man in his mid-30s, probably.

01:04:48.020 He was a painter-decorator.

01:04:49.480 I caught him just as he was coming home.

01:04:52.040 And he said to me, so I'm actually fed up and angry.

01:04:56.320 My wife's just, we've got one child

01:04:58.660 and she stays at home to look after the baby.

01:05:02.140 I work pretty much six, seven days a week.

01:05:04.900 We haven't had a holiday in two, three years.

01:05:07.800 We want to have another baby,

01:05:09.580 but there's no way we can afford another baby.

01:05:13.720 And I'm so angry and I'm being worn down

01:05:17.100 and broken by this government. And the tax rate is crippling me. The costs of my raw materials

01:05:27.140 and labour have never been higher. And how am I supposed to support a young child and a wife?

01:05:36.880 And I'm here doing the right thing. I'm here busting a gut and not going to welfare. And it

01:05:44.040 feels like the British state is doing everything to, you know, kick me in the shins. And I think 0.99

01:05:50.540 millions of people feel like that. And they may well have been historically Labour voters. So

01:05:55.440 that all comes back down to cutting taxes. The tax burden is far too high. And that's why we've

01:06:02.720 come out with a very big policy announcement. Robert Jennings announced at the conference,

01:06:06.820 We would raise the personal allowance threshold to £15,000 for the lower earners.

01:06:15.220 And that would result in more money that people keep from their earnings.

01:06:20.420 But the tax thresholds are a really good example of how the last Conservative government, supposedly the party of low tax, utterly failed.

01:06:27.080 You know, those tax thresholds have been frozen since the pandemic, where she promised to raise them, never got round to it.

01:06:33.220 Another Tory lie.

01:06:35.180 But that has really distorted our personal tax system. 0.51

01:06:39.280 So you've got people at the lower end

01:06:41.280 who were never intended to be paying higher rates of tax,

01:06:45.100 but have been dragged into it.

01:06:46.260 Well, that pay to decorate you're talking about

01:06:47.620 is probably paying the top rate of tax.

01:06:48.960 Absolutely, exactly.

01:06:50.160 And he's a classic example of how we've got a punitive tax system.

01:06:54.520 It doesn't incentivise people to work.

01:06:56.960 And so a lot of people do think,

01:06:58.680 well, actually, I could earn more on welfare.

01:07:00.460 Why should I be working?

01:07:02.400 Because welfare is so easy to get.

01:07:04.320 So at the lower end, it's dragging more people.

01:07:08.320 Also, teachers, nurses never intended to pay the higher rate are now paying higher.

01:07:13.160 At the higher end as well, you know, the marginal tax rate is punitive.

01:07:17.580 There are people who won't go for the promotion, won't work higher hours, longer hours, because it's just not worth their time or money.

01:07:24.500 And so how have we created a personal tax system regime which actually puts people off work and deters them from working?

01:07:33.760 That, if ever there was a sign of a system not working, that was it.

01:07:37.220 So what will you do?

01:07:37.800 So I would say those people do want lower taxes.

01:07:39.940 And lower taxes are not a...

01:07:43.020 I just look at the popularity of things like the mansion tax and all of these sort of...

01:07:47.180 I've never used the phrase politics of envy, but a lot of it, it's like the VAT on school fees.

01:07:53.160 All it's done is it's the rich are continuing to send their kids to private school.

01:07:57.360 But people who were on the brink, who were just about scraping enough to send their kids to private school,

01:08:03.260 They're the ones that are having to stick their kids in state schools now, which is making state schools worse because there's now more people per class, etc.

01:08:10.780 And that's just a policy of basically saying, we're all feeling a bit poorer, so let's just stick it to people who have a bit more.

01:08:17.220 And those policies are becoming quite popular in the country. They are.

01:08:21.480 Well, I would say that we believe in a welfare state for the vulnerable and those who cannot work genuinely, and we look after those people.

01:08:31.500 But we've got a system which is not defined by genuine vulnerability anymore and genuine need.

01:08:38.380 We've got a system which actively disincentivises work.

01:08:42.040 We've got a system which is a soft touch.

01:08:44.440 And so we've got far too many people claiming that they're sick or incapacitated, cannot work, when actually they can.

01:08:52.480 So what will you do about all of this, Rala?

01:08:54.120 Well, massive welfare reforms have been set out by the party.

01:08:57.640 We would make it much more rigorous in the actual assessment. We would cut the welfare bill by about £50 billion. That's a big saving. Divert that funding to things like defence or other aspects of our economy, which really need the investment. We're the only party that set out quite a bold plan on welfare reform.

01:09:18.240 You will be accused when it happens, as Ian Duncan Smith was, of, you know, hurting people,

01:09:24.360 killing people, perhaps. And such is the unwieldy nature of these massive government

01:09:29.700 systems that, unfortunately, if you ever reduce welfare for people who've been diagnosed with

01:09:35.060 ADHD or anxiety or whatever, it will turn out that some of them were really in a bad way and

01:09:39.580 didn't need the help. How are you going to navigate all that? And that's, again, you know,

01:09:44.400 there's a lot of lessons that can be learned from the conservative experience. They tried

01:09:47.440 welfare reform, you know, they didn't go far enough because welfare ballooned on their watch.

01:09:53.020 The Labour Party is a very good case in point. Every Labour Prime Minister, it seems, is trying

01:09:57.480 to cut welfare, but there are a hundred or so Labour backbenchers who are adamantly against it

01:10:03.720 and will not let it go through. And so I doubt Andy Burnham will make any headway in cutting

01:10:10.840 the welfare bill. So I think that needs, this is again why I'm very glad that reform exists. You

01:10:15.700 know, there is a political coherence amongst people. Again, this is one of the reasons I'm

01:10:20.480 very happy to be in reform. You know, you talk about invasion. I said it was an invasion when

01:10:26.200 I was Home Secretary, I think in 2022 or 23. Tory MPs, you know, lost their marbles and their heads

01:10:34.860 wobbled and they said I was divisive and they said the tone was wrong and the rhetoric was wrong.

01:10:39.960 And, you know, I was, you know, criticised by my own colleagues, including members of the cabinet.

01:10:46.700 Everybody in the Reform Party calls it, thinks it's an invasion and is very comfortable with describing it as such.

01:10:53.800 It's the same with things like welfare reform.

01:10:56.760 You know, it will be a party, already we're a party, and it will continue to be a party that is united on this issue

01:11:04.220 because we all see the enormity of the problem and the essential need to cut the bill

01:11:12.400 because nothing else is possible. Economic growth is not possible.

01:11:15.700 with the state of welfare spending as it is.

01:11:18.240 Investing in our defence is impossible

01:11:20.120 if we carry on spending so much on welfare.

01:11:24.580 You know, that's even before you get to schools and hospitals.

01:11:28.480 So it is the number one economic priority

01:11:31.100 if we're going to cut taxes and get economic growth going.

01:11:35.320 One thing I think is interesting to your point

01:11:37.040 about being divisive and saying certain things at a certain time

01:11:39.920 is our former guest, Matthew Saeed, who we love having on the show,

01:11:43.040 he wrote an article in The Times this week talking,

01:11:45.500 Matthew is great because he's wonderful at speaking to the kind of center of British politics and people on the left will listen to him as well.

01:11:55.980 But kind of saying the things that people like you were saying just five or six or 10 years ago.

01:12:01.540 And he wrote an article basically saying that the Angela Merkel's, David Cameron's, you know, Macron's of the world, they were the extremists while they were being celebrated.

01:12:12.080 And it does feel increasingly like the consensus or certainly the Overton window is shifting so rapidly.

01:12:19.920 And now more and more people are given permission to believe things that we've argued about for a long time.

01:12:28.520 Do you see in that the possibility for reform to genuinely win the next election as a result of that?

01:12:35.160 I think more people are. I think you're right. The Overton window is shifting.

01:12:39.100 but I also think that more people are getting more desperate there's a greater sense of

01:12:48.720 desperation about what to do about the various crises afflicting our country and in many ways

01:12:59.460 the worse it gets under Labour and it will get worse under this Labour government the budget

01:13:03.700 it will be a disaster. There may well be a financial crisis in the next 12 months with

01:13:08.860 this country. Immigration is going to get worse. There will be more riots. There will be more 1.00

01:13:15.060 protests. There will be more two-tier policing. There'll be more Islamism. Grooming gangs,

01:13:21.220 the victims of grooming gangs will not get justice. You know, every year that it slides

01:13:28.360 down a notch in our country, the greater the levels of desperation, fear, and anger.

01:13:34.300 And I think that, again, that's why I'm very grateful to be in a party that's fearless

01:13:41.760 with the solutions that it's offering.

01:13:43.980 We're the only party that's saying, well, we'll actually militarize our border.

01:13:48.240 We'll use the Royal Navy.

01:13:49.680 The Conservatives scoff at that, but actually it's the right thing to do.

01:13:53.180 I went to Greece when I was Home Secretary.

01:13:57.000 Greece is a relative success story

01:13:59.300 when it comes to combating illegal migration. 0.93

01:14:01.940 At the height of the Syrian refugee problem,

01:14:04.100 a million migrants were invading Greece

01:14:08.200 on its maritime border.

01:14:09.960 They built a wall.

01:14:11.200 The Greeks actually built a wall

01:14:12.260 on its land border with Turkey.

01:14:14.100 They used drones and armoured vehicles and soldiers,

01:14:18.980 and the number fell by about 90%

01:14:21.340 in the space of a couple of years.

01:14:23.080 You could see with America as well.

01:14:25.720 You know, a robust approach to border security

01:14:28.520 was what it took to stop the problem on the southern border.

01:14:33.060 And I think that people are, you know, a few years ago,

01:14:36.580 they would have thought that unimaginable

01:14:38.900 to think about using the armed forces to secure our borders.

01:14:43.740 But now, I think more people are agreeing

01:14:46.100 that that is the necessary measure

01:14:47.740 and reform is the only party that's saying,

01:14:49.120 yeah, we agree, that's what we're proposing in our policy.

01:14:52.020 Before we move on to our final question

01:14:54.080 and the questions from our audience for Substack,

01:14:57.220 there's something that I've always...

01:14:59.220 This is a question I always ask politicians of every hue,

01:15:02.540 which is, when do you think we'll be the next general election?

01:15:08.820 I'd like to know what you think, actually.

01:15:10.400 This is a kind of, you know, a sweepscape.

01:15:12.960 You should have a...

01:15:13.640 We should all have a bet.

01:15:14.520 Well, it's a live debate on Off the Fence,

01:15:16.200 which is a new show we've launched with Winston Marshall

01:15:18.300 and Tom Slater from Spike.

01:15:19.620 So we've been going back and forth.

01:15:20.900 Right. Where do you all stand?

01:15:23.260 Right.

01:15:23.740 So this is how I...

01:15:26.400 If I was Burnham, I'd call one in the next couple of months.

01:15:29.360 I think this is the best time for him.

01:15:31.620 And I know, Andy, you love the show.

01:15:33.720 So, you know, a bit of advice from me to you.

01:15:35.800 Has he been on?

01:15:36.600 No, no, no.

01:15:37.280 Have you invited him?

01:15:38.400 Of course.

01:15:38.900 We invite all the leaders of the major parties.

01:15:42.640 He's from the same part of the world as my dad is.

01:15:45.420 So we've got a lot in common, Andy.

01:15:47.600 Number one, I would say if he was being smart, he would do it now.

01:15:51.800 He's never going to be more popular than he currently is.

01:15:54.400 He's got that bounce.

01:15:55.860 He hasn't yet had to implement policies which are going to annoy and irritate and alienate certain people.

01:16:03.160 There feels like there's a little bit of momentum behind him.

01:16:06.420 Reform have been hit by the scandals and whatever else.

01:16:09.740 So they're currently down.

01:16:11.300 The right haven't united.

01:16:13.260 The Greens look like they've receded because he's been very skillful in what he's done with the far left of the Labour Party.

01:16:20.260 this should be the moment he would do it.

01:16:23.660 Now, it would really annoy some Labour MPs

01:16:26.260 because they're going to lose their seats.

01:16:28.460 But if his ultimate goal is for Labour to remain in power,

01:16:32.720 I think he should do it now.

01:16:34.300 I personally don't think he will.

01:16:35.600 I think he thinks he's got enough headwind behind him

01:16:38.120 to do another two, three years.

01:16:40.020 Okay.

01:16:40.920 Yeah, and I mean, the line about he'll never be as popular as he is now,

01:16:44.640 I think is totally true.

01:16:45.740 The only question is, he could call an election now and lose or have to do a form of coalition

01:16:52.000 with people, which would make his life more difficult.

01:16:54.960 And so he may just hold on.

01:16:57.000 It may be like, you know, you know you're going to get.

01:16:59.880 But also, you know, we were arguing about this on Off the Fence the other day.

01:17:03.960 It's like, maybe we live in a kind of left-wing woke country now.

01:17:08.420 And just statistically speaking, in terms of the percentage of the people, I think Winston

01:17:12.440 made the point that we go back and forth on this stuff, but like the percentages have stayed exactly

01:17:16.640 the same, 47 left, 47 right. And Burnham has seemed to be very, very good at consolidating

01:17:23.660 the left-wing vote. So when it comes to vote time, they're like, you know what, we've got to stop

01:17:28.240 reform, we've got to stop Farage, and they all get together and vote for the left-wing party.

01:17:32.820 So it's hard to say. But he's come out recently and said himself that he won't be calling an

01:17:38.960 election. Do you think that, do you believe him? Well, all prime ministers say that before they

01:17:42.520 call an election. I think Rishi said in the March of 24, no, there won't be an election.

01:17:48.440 Three months later, we had an election. I think Theresa May famously said, choose me as leader.

01:17:53.500 I won't call an election. Literally a year later, she called an election. So I never believe them

01:17:58.160 when they say no. And of course they have the, you know, an absolute prerogative on calling it.

01:18:03.500 so only they will know.

01:18:06.080 We're ready.

01:18:07.420 We're on an election footing at reform.

01:18:09.280 And we are, you know,

01:18:10.860 we are ready for the battle ahead.

01:18:13.220 And if he calls it, you know, bring it on.

01:18:16.340 No one voted for him.

01:18:18.320 And people do feel it sorely

01:18:22.720 that there is a lack of legitimacy.

01:18:25.400 It looks like he wants to announce

01:18:27.840 some quite big, you know, policies

01:18:30.760 which are a departure from the manifesto.

01:18:32.780 He is limited on tax changes by the manifesto.

01:18:36.720 He's talking about social care changes.

01:18:38.980 He's very passionate about that issue.

01:18:40.600 You know, it's not really in the manifesto.

01:18:42.760 And that would be a massive change to how we fund social care, how we deliver it.

01:18:47.720 He wants to make it like the NHS, basically.

01:18:50.560 That's a big departure from anything anyone was told about when Labour were elected.

01:18:57.520 So he might, on the one hand, be ruling out a general election in the near future.

01:19:03.500 But on the other hand, he's talking in policy terms about things that would,

01:19:08.760 you know, technically speaking, require an election and a personal mandate if he wanted to deliver them.

01:19:13.520 So he's talking out of both sides of his mouth, which is why he's a politician.

01:19:21.200 I'm working on the basis there's going to be an election in the next six months.

01:19:25.540 Really?

01:19:26.600 Personally.

01:19:27.600 Interesting.

01:19:28.640 And what do you think reform will get at that election?

01:19:33.060 Well, I...

01:19:33.680 What's a good result?

01:19:34.360 Because, like I said, you know, if you get 100 seats, it's amazing.

01:19:38.620 It's incredible.

01:19:39.460 It is, but it's not enough to form a government.

01:19:41.120 It's never been done, has it, in British politics?

01:19:43.160 A new party getting 100 seats?

01:19:45.380 Yeah.

01:19:46.080 Well, I mean, I think that a lot of firsts have been achieved

01:19:49.960 by the Reform Party in recent years.

01:19:52.180 So anything is possible.

01:19:53.800 I mean, I am working on the basis that we have Prime Minister Farage installed in number 10 at the next general election.

01:19:59.280 That is the only way that we, you know, restore some hope and confidence to the country and begin the, you know, the recovery, frankly, because the country is in deep, deep crisis.

01:20:13.840 The economics are awful, as we just set out. The migration problem needs fixing. You know, our schools need fixing, which is my area. 0.98

01:20:23.800 people can't get a GP appointment. We are wholly and dangerously exposed when it comes to our

01:20:29.180 armed forces. We will not be able to defend ourselves if we were attacked by a hostile

01:20:33.660 state. We are crippled. Our heavy industry is decimated because of net zero madness. There is

01:20:40.720 so much, and I haven't even got there to the dysfunction of Whitehall and the courts and

01:20:48.820 the administrative organs of the state, which just don't work. So there is so much

01:20:54.760 profound rewiring, radical change, responsible radicalism that is needed

01:21:00.280 that, you know, the sooner we get on with it, the better.

01:21:06.020 So what is the one thing that we're not talking about that we should be?

01:21:10.000 Before Suello answers the final question at the end of the interview,

01:21:13.460 make sure to head over to triggerpod.co.uk where you'll be able to see this.

01:21:18.820 What would you do differently about the police or what would you do to the police?

01:21:23.500 What's the one thing about Britain that you believe has been lost in your lifetime

01:21:26.600 and can politics realistically bring it back?

01:21:30.320 What is the one thing that we're not talking about that we should be?

01:21:36.520 Well, I think you've talked about it a little bit, so maybe this isn't the right answer.

01:21:39.960 But I touch on it in my book and I'm prepared for the backlash.

01:21:44.420 By the way, a book plug in.

01:21:47.660 say the title for the people listening in my book patriot i say patriot empire betrayal and hope

01:21:55.600 i say um and i'm prepared for the backlash from the sisterhood i talk about um my personal

01:22:03.480 uh experience of starting a family and struggling to have a baby and actually with hindsight

01:22:11.680 making a bit of a mistake in leaving it too late.

01:22:15.220 I had my first child when I was 39

01:22:17.240 and my second child when I was 40,

01:22:19.520 and I almost missed the boat, biologically speaking.

01:22:22.740 And it's something I've been really interested in

01:22:27.100 for a few years,

01:22:28.520 which is not just my personal story,

01:22:31.980 but the fact that I'm part of a huge phenomenon

01:22:36.940 in the West,

01:22:38.720 which is involuntary childlessness and a collapsing birth rate and actually just for

01:22:48.640 context it's kind of illustrated quite nicely in the book you know my grandmother was born in 1922

01:22:52.840 she was one of nine children she got married at 18 and she had five children three of them survived

01:23:00.800 so that's one of them my mother my mum then had me in 1980 and I'm an only child if we carry that

01:23:08.320 trajectory on with my daughter, she's not going to have any children. And we're not going to

01:23:14.800 produce the labor force, the citizenry, the energy, the dynamism, the people to sustain

01:23:24.540 our country. And there is a massive social and economic time bomb waiting to, which is already

01:23:33.780 actually exploding. You see it in many parts of the world where governments are beginning to take

01:23:39.680 the collapsing birth rate seriously. And it's something that we need to start talking about.

01:23:46.780 And since you bring it up, so it's really interesting, you mentioned that it's something

01:23:50.180 that it's another debate I've sparked with my irresponsible comments. But actually,

01:23:54.920 we'll have a couple of very interesting commentators coming on to do a debate on the show about it.

01:24:00.100 what what was it you mentioned you i mean you're one of the lucky ones in that you were able to

01:24:06.000 jump on the boat right as it was in the nick of time in the nick of time and that has its own

01:24:10.300 challenges by the way because you're having kids very close after each other which is not easy as

01:24:14.420 we both know etc what was it that that made you be in that position we you know what were the

01:24:22.200 things that caused you to to find yourself yeah place and this is something i explore in the book

01:24:27.200 um I think the large the largest reason was that I was raised um to put academic and professional

01:24:38.280 achievement first and I was raised to be a girl boss and I was raised and my parents will happily

01:24:45.780 accept this and we talk about it a lot they said to me and this is born out of my mother's

01:24:51.640 experience and my grandmother's experience don't get married don't don't get married don't tie

01:24:57.040 yourself down, don't settle, God forbid, don't have a baby too early because that will just ruin

01:25:02.940 your professional chances, it will ruin your career and, you know, go for your career. And

01:25:08.100 throughout my 20s and my 30s, that's what I did. And I did that to kind of textbook perfection.

01:25:15.840 And then I found myself in my mid to late 30s, childless and unmarried and actually pretty

01:25:22.360 worried that I might have made a mistake and a wrong choice. And so I think there's a cultural

01:25:30.640 question about what are we telling our young people and our young girls. I don't think we

01:25:36.920 tell them that fertility is finite. I don't think we talk about family enough in positive terms.

01:25:42.920 I don't think we celebrate men as dads and fathers and providers enough in our kind of cultural narrative.

01:25:55.200 And of course, economically, we've made it very difficult, if not impossible, for young people to settle down and think about marrying and having a baby.

01:26:05.040 You know, if you've gone to university, you are starting off with £50,000 worth of debt in your early 20s.

01:26:11.060 Your average salary is £35,000.

01:26:15.440 There's no way you're going to be able to afford a down payment on a house.

01:26:19.400 And people are not going to be having babies in flat shares.

01:26:22.740 So we've made it economically very difficult for younger people to start having kids.

01:26:29.380 And so I think there's a mixture of issues which are both cultural and economic,

01:26:33.920 which have contributed to a declining birth rate.

01:26:37.060 So Ella, thank you so much for coming on the show.

01:26:39.320 Great to have you.

01:26:40.120 The book is Patriot, Empire, Betrayal and Hope.

01:26:42.900 You mentioned it only about 73 times during the course of the interview.

01:26:45.740 That's not enough.

01:26:46.660 Can I get it again?

01:26:48.920 Head on over to triggerpod.co.uk where you'll be able to see this.

01:26:54.680 If reform wins Parliament, how will they not be prevented from implementing their reforms

01:26:59.020 by an entrenched bureaucracy, deeply opposed to reform policy?

01:27:10.120 We'll be right back.

TRIGGERnometry - September 30, 2026

＂They Never Wanted To Stop The Boats＂ Suella Braverman

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