TRIGGERnometry - Woke is Back and It's Worse Than Before

00:00:00.000 Hello, everybody, and welcome to a very special new show that we are doing, rounding up the news of the week.

00:00:07.120 Joining me, of course, is Francis Foster, but also a very good friend of the show, Winston Marshall of the Winston Marshall Show and editor of Spike Tom Slater.

00:00:15.460 Great to have you guys. Looking forward to having this chat with everybody.

00:00:19.620 We've got three stories that we're going to focus on this week.

00:00:23.120 We've got Jason Hardy and the fallout from his tragic taking of his own life.

00:00:28.960 We'll talk about the debate about illegal immigration,

00:00:32.220 particularly there's the conversation,

00:00:34.620 the Home Office has very helpfully put out a leaflet saying it's wrong to,

00:00:38.140 it's illegal, in fact, to rape.

00:00:39.540 I don't know if you guys were aware of that.

00:00:41.620 Also, benefits for foreign nationals, we'll talk about that. 0.99

00:00:44.580 And finally, has the right, particularly in the U.S., gone full retard? 0.97

00:00:47.860 We'll talk about the Candace Owens, 0.97

00:00:49.600 the great debate between Candace Owens and Andrew Wilson.

00:00:52.760 All of that coming up very shortly.

00:00:55.100 But first of all, let's start with Jason Ardy.

00:00:57.160 uh he this was a cambridge academic clearly a fantasist made all sorts of claims he was a

00:01:03.460 top level marathon runner he didn't speak until he was 11 didn't read until he was 18 but went

00:01:08.560 to cambridge became a phd uh and when all of this stuff was revealed uh he got a lot of media

00:01:15.900 attention let's put it that way in fact he'd had a lot of media attention before this uh but now

00:01:20.500 the media attention turned negative and he tried to show his media attention indeed and he tragically

00:01:26.940 took his own life and now apparently uh the media killed them tom you've obviously covered this

00:01:32.480 story as are you responsible well apparently so i mean i woke up on the day after to find out that

00:01:39.260 i was actually guilty of murder um there's been lists doing the rounds on social media has anyone

00:01:44.100 seen this because there's nothing sinister is there about throwing up lists of journalists you

00:01:48.020 dislike and they're actually openly calling for embarrassing professional or personal information

00:01:52.260 about us in order to um give us a taste of our own medicine yeah i found the the meltdown after

00:01:58.820 jason arday's tragic death to be almost much more revealing and disturbing than the whole jason

00:02:04.300 arday scandal in general like people will be aware of the of the amount of lies that he told

00:02:09.720 the plagiarism accusations a lot of questions were asked about how the hell did someone like

00:02:13.900 this end up at cambridge university why did no one notice that all of these wild claims about

00:02:18.720 kind of herculean athletic achievements as well as you know a remarkably um a remarkable kind of

00:02:25.840 string of personal crises which wouldn't really have passed the sniff test but what's happened

00:02:30.180 since is first of all the idea that just reporting on or criticizing public figures is like tantamount

00:02:35.580 to driving them up to the bridge and pushing them off which i think is really really disgusting

00:02:40.040 and also just a complete rewriting of history i went to that vigil in trafalgar square on monday

00:02:45.040 night and it's as if these people either haven't been paying attention or just doubling down on

00:02:49.060 this kind of myth of saint jason in order to bash the press so it's we we like to think that we'd

00:02:54.460 escaped like peak blm a few years ago peak woke a few years ago but it's back with an absolute

00:02:59.600 vengeance now and they've chosen as their champion again a man whose story ended in very tragic

00:03:05.200 fashion but isn't hardly the sort of unimpeachable victim of a racist press that he's been made out 0.77

00:03:10.660 winston oh how many people i mean these claims with 30 000 are to be frank complete rubbish i

00:03:20.440 mean everyone knows that there is a kind of inflation of numbers at every demonstration

00:03:24.200 every organizer does it regrettably um i think someone pointed out that you couldn't even fit

00:03:29.280 30 000 in the entirety of trafalgar square and we were just up on the area just outside the steps of

00:03:34.680 the national gallery i in my very unscientific kind of method thought maybe we're in the low

00:03:39.900 thousands there i'm not 100 sure but it wasn't 30 000 that much i can tell you i think the official

00:03:45.020 capacity for trafalgar square is 10 000 you can't fit more than 10 000 people in that in that space

00:03:52.780 yeah so the stand up for racism all these people on the ardy side of the argument claiming there's

00:03:58.940 30 000 is absolutely lucrative and kind of fitting in this whole story i've covered the show i had

00:04:04.460 Nathan Kofnas, who was the former Cambridge fellow who revealed the story on Substack. Actually,

00:04:11.580 there's people who've revealed this story about Ade as early as when he started at Cambridge. And I

00:04:17.740 point to Simon Webb here, who's a YouTuber who goes under the name History Debunked. So

00:04:22.140 this has been covered for some time. And there have been journalists like, at the Times,

00:04:26.860 Jack Grove, and there's a professor at Plymouth University who was also covering this

00:04:32.540 um for called dr david harris and um before we sort of you know this story is crazy because it

00:04:39.400 sort of it's pulled down a whole infrastructure not just cambridge but individuals like simon

00:04:46.220 baron cohen uh like navara media and we're going to get into that but i think it's just

00:04:50.960 worth pointing exactly what the tragedy is and because you mentioned tragedy constant

00:04:55.840 this is a man who spent his entire life lying and his lies caught up with him he was a career con

00:05:04.700 man he was a fraudster now I don't take any joy in saying that we all fought short of the glory

00:05:10.140 of God I don't purport to be without sin the the real villainous thing though the thing which I 0.91

00:05:17.260 think is actually an evil thing was what happened at the end it's not just that he committed suicide

00:05:23.180 is that rather than face the consequences of a lifetime of lying and fraud fraud which by the

00:05:29.760 way he might have had legal um pushback against you know i don't know and we can't tell now but

00:05:35.120 i think technically some of the stuff he's done is illegal and he could have faced consequences

00:05:39.260 there but instead of doing that he decided to abandon his children and so it now there are two

00:05:46.920 children who are going to be fatherless and and that for me is a terrible thing and and a real

00:05:52.480 that's the real tragedy for these two children. And that's where my personal sympathies and

00:05:56.720 empathy lies. And that's the core of this story, which has now become a saga. A saga so much that

00:06:04.480 even yesterday, Nathan Kofnass, who has moved from Cambridge to Ghent University, was then suspended

00:06:11.620 at Ghent University, not just by anyone though, by a trans gynecologist professor and rector,

00:06:19.340 who was formerly called Dave de Sutter and is now Petra de Sutter

00:06:23.680 and was also a member of the Green Party in Belgium.

00:06:27.840 So it's just the most absurd saga that never seems to end.

00:06:32.580 I mean, by the time this episode goes out, I'm sure there'll be new developments.

00:06:37.720 Francis?

00:06:39.200 So I think one of the things that's really actually interesting about this case

00:06:43.400 and one of the things that people don't discuss about enough

00:06:46.320 is that a lot of people on the left of people who are pro Jason Arde will make the claim that

00:06:53.420 it was exposed by a racist professor Nathan Kofnast or a racist academic. And we can talk

00:07:00.060 about that whether Nathan is or isn't later on. But what's really interesting is, well,

00:07:05.020 the mainstream media wanted to expose this, yet they had a pervert, well, a literal knock on the

00:07:11.860 door from the police effectively silencing them and by the way this isn't not that it would matter

00:07:18.620 in the slightest this isn't the daily express that we're talking about this isn't even the daily mail

00:07:23.620 this isn't really the times this is the times educational supplement and everyone can drink

00:07:29.920 now as somebody who used to be a teacher and actually used to read the times educational

00:07:33.980 but you know as somebody used to read the times educational supplement week in week out pretty

00:07:46.180 much cover to cover it's not exactly the most right wing of publications and this is a very

00:07:52.740 very powerful example that if you can silence the press what you ultimately cannot do is silence the

00:07:59.880 truth because eventually the truth will get out and if it's not going to be legitimate sources

00:08:06.300 quote unquote then it's going to be somebody speaking about these sources that you do not like

00:08:12.040 ultimately the truth about Jason Arday who also he wasn't just a professor he had a professorial

00:08:19.140 chair possibly the highest achievement in academia that is the role and that is the position that

00:08:26.940 that man had and when you are on at that level and you do not deserve to be at that level

00:08:33.560 and you are a fabulous it will come out and unfortunately it came out in the manner that

00:08:41.440 it did but it wouldn't have happened in this way if we hadn't have silenced the press

00:08:46.540 last year and in the years before that i think the real reason it wouldn't have happened is if this

00:08:53.800 uh guy uh you know people say he's a vulnerable guy and i there's no way for us externally to

00:08:59.860 judge that uh perhaps he was perhaps he wasn't if he wasn't uh promoted way beyond his remit way

00:09:06.520 beyond his station and if we didn't live in a world in which people are given things by virtue

00:09:11.900 of the skin color they have the various abilities of disabilities and so on and putting him in that

00:09:18.280 position seems to me set him up for this not least because as stephen edgington who we've had

00:09:23.780 on the show who everybody uh will be aware of he he wrote a great article detailing how for six

00:09:28.700 years the mainstream media pushed jason ardy into this position into the position of being this

00:09:35.200 media star like if he'd just been an obscure cambridge academic who thanks to dei got pushed

00:09:41.240 into a position where he taught apparently very badly and and people didn't feel that they were 0.92

00:09:45.580 getting their money's worth okay no one would really give a shit right but the problem is once 0.92

00:09:50.540 you elevate this person into question time appearances into appearance on all sorts of 0.97

00:09:54.840 media platforms into being held up as this great bastard i mean there's there's this great clip we

00:09:59.900 we're not going to play today but of jason ardy talking to james o'brien which he absolutely does

00:10:05.900 o'brien like a kipper and just tells him how amazing o'brien is and how brilliant he is and

00:10:11.520 how wonderful he is and a brian is sitting there you know and i think he says oh it's great that

00:10:15.420 it's the end of the episode because otherwise i'd be crying so he went around getting all these

00:10:19.580 opportunities and then people go why has he got so much media scrutiny look to be honest with you

00:10:25.380 i think winston myself and actually all of us have been on the end of media scrutiny um you know and

00:10:31.560 it's not necessarily super pleasant when people are saying things about you invariably when you

00:10:36.540 are in the in the limelight in this way a lot of the things people say about you are not accurate

00:10:41.740 and not entirely fair that just tends to be what happens but if there's substantial basis for the

00:10:49.880 claims that people are making that's sort of the thing that really matters and the one other thing

00:10:55.820 i wanted to add is as well it seems to me like one thing that has happened since his taking of

00:11:01.620 his own life is we've actually built an incentive structure which encourages people in that

00:11:07.500 situation to do what he did. That's what I see here. Because if you're someone who is caught

00:11:13.340 out doing something in public that you shouldn't be doing, and you get a lot of negative media

00:11:18.140 attention, then you have this now, apparently, this one trump card where people who've been

00:11:25.140 covering your story fairly fair accurately and fairly will then come out and say oh my god i was

00:11:32.900 so wrong and we actually have a clip of aaron bastani who you know we respect and he's been on

00:11:37.380 our show many times from navara media and and there was someone else from navara media as well

00:11:42.580 who did this mea culpa struggle session and it's just worth seeing what this incentive structure

00:11:50.020 creates in the reaction of the media.

00:11:53.160 I wish I could ask Jason for his forgiveness for what I said, but I can't.

00:11:58.080 What I can do is ask for the forgiveness of his friends, colleagues, and family.

00:12:01.740 Now, they might not want to forgive me.

00:12:04.520 That's their right.

00:12:06.200 That's the point.

00:12:07.880 Forgiveness is theirs to give, not mine to take.

00:12:10.260 It's about them, not me.

00:12:12.480 Professionally, I erred, but ethically, and that's what I really care about, I really

00:12:17.680 screwed up.

00:12:18.280 I can't make amends, obviously, but I'm going to reflect on my behavior in all of this and how I can use my energies more productively, more productively to cover those issues our audience really care about, those stories that really matter, and how I can make a difference for the better, not the worse.

00:12:37.000 it's interesting i do wonder if if say a story about a right-wing academic say nathan kofnas

00:12:46.280 for example if nathan kofnas was involved in plagiarism and fabrication of of claims etc

00:12:52.820 would that be a story of interest to navara viewers and would would aaron have that same

00:12:58.940 reaction do you think tom no not at all i mean also it's worth pointing out that despite the

00:13:04.180 that we've seen these kind of hostage video style apologies i mean all aaron blessing was missing

00:13:08.500 there was a copy of today's newspaper and a reassurance that he was being treated properly

00:13:12.900 by his captors and i like aaron he's a smart guy um and he's also someone who's kind of reliably

00:13:19.380 interesting on the left which is quite a rare thing if we're being honest these days um but

00:13:24.580 not only is that kind of spectacle so pathetic it's also so out of whack with what it is they

00:13:28.100 supposedly actually did navara didn't cover that story particularly extensively i mean aaron there

00:13:33.860 there if i'm right in saying is apologizing for one tweet that he posted in which he referred to

00:13:39.200 our day as a con man which to be honest is more or less an accurate description that's one of the

00:13:44.620 things about all of this which is really concerning to me is that there's often kind of spasms of anger

00:13:50.020 with the press there's some kind of scandal there's some kind of horrific tragedy press intrusion

00:13:55.960 might be brought up um the occasions on which the press will just not tell the truth this is you

00:14:02.700 know hardly knew what's happening now is that the press are being accused of murder demonized smid

00:14:08.640 for telling the truth for doing their jobs for doing what cambridge and simon and schuster and

00:14:14.900 all the other kind of elite institutions that are they had any contact with should have done

00:14:19.180 which is to do a basic sniff test to look into the claims about his life and his academic record

00:14:25.180 that he had been making and that's what makes it so so sinister i think i mean you've got

00:14:30.620 activists saying that there was misinformation posted about jason arday there wasn't it was

00:14:35.640 just information which is put out there and it's often being presented as if this was kind of

00:14:40.420 scandal-mongering like there were just rumors about jason arday and that the press with no

00:14:44.920 thought to his state of mind were just circulating it if you look at just the reporting that went

00:14:49.740 into jack grove's times higher education piece he put together a 97 page dossier he had academic

00:14:56.300 experts pour over it he had people run it through software all the kind of different steps this was

00:15:01.420 a really overwhelming case and i think bless them but at navara media i don't know what's going on

00:15:06.460 there other than is this audience capture or is this just being caught up in the middle of one

00:15:11.180 of these sort of moral panics basically that we find ourselves in but um some of the details are

00:15:18.140 different you know to maybe to steel man their position you know if you if you feel that you've

00:15:23.820 contributed to someone taking their own life and you genuinely feel responsibility i mean there is

00:15:28.780 this kind of slightly moronic in my opinion view uh online which is like never apologize well no

00:15:35.420 like if you've done something wrong definitely apologize because it's a decent thing to do 0.74

00:15:40.620 but the problem that i see is like you said i don't think aaron or no i mean did anything wrong

00:15:46.780 aaron did talk about this story but he was right to talk about this story so to then apologize this

00:15:52.940 This is what I mean by saying you're giving people a trump card

00:15:55.560 by encouraging them to effectively take their own life

00:15:58.700 in a situation where they're facing fair scrutiny.

00:16:01.880 Because I think that's a really important point

00:16:03.460 because we are presenting the taking of one's own life

00:16:07.040 almost as a rational response to public criticism.

00:16:09.820 That's a really dangerous road to go down.

00:16:12.420 Really dangerous.

00:16:13.300 It's naturally going to chill the press as well.

00:16:15.060 Are we saying that you can't go after a politician

00:16:16.780 or a prominent person in public life, public intellectual,

00:16:20.260 because of what might happen?

00:16:22.320 I mean, that's a really chilling precedent to set.

00:16:24.520 I don't know why more people don't recognise it. 0.98

00:16:26.400 Well, listen, you've had your fare of shit from media and online and all the rest of it. 0.97

00:16:30.260 What do you think about this? 0.98

00:16:31.700 And I've issued public apologies.

00:16:33.720 I've definitely got opinions.

00:16:35.780 I can speculate about what's happening behind the scenes in Navarro media.

00:16:40.920 I'd add to just on what Aaron Bastani seems to be apologising for,

00:16:45.920 which is, as Tom rightly says, it's not necessarily even an opinion.

00:16:49.760 but let's take for the sake of argument it's an opinion that he had that Arde was a con man

00:16:56.000 does that mean that Aaron Bastani is no longer going to publish op-eds is that it are Navarro

00:17:02.180 media now only going to publish facts no more opinion I mean fantastic I'm thrilled if that's

00:17:07.760 the case but uh I thought you were pro free speech mate I'm pro free speech but uh even

00:17:16.280 navara media test my uh patience a little bit there um but uh uh it's put himself in a situation

00:17:23.820 i'm not sure how he can get out of it professionally at what point can he and can't he

00:17:29.000 report on things he's kind of created a trap for himself i i it's going to be very curious to see

00:17:34.340 how that plays out and as for um the apology now i i did issue an apology and i this is five years

00:17:43.240 ago now it's about i tweeted about andy no's book when i was still in mumford and sons and i upset

00:17:51.080 everyone around me because they were of the mindset that this was sort of evil and i was

00:17:57.280 contrite because i was like maybe i don't know everything here and i was sorry that the people

00:18:01.340 around me had been hurt now it might of course speculating here about bastani but it might be

00:18:07.400 the case that a lot of people at navarra media are very hurt and upset and and it might not be

00:18:13.040 reasonable that they're hurt and upset they might be hurt and upset but for completely the wrong

00:18:16.660 reasons and he probably is their friend and not only that it'd be a component that the core fan

00:18:23.760 base of navarro media won't be happy with the position that he took because it seems to be that

00:18:28.180 they are from that it's it's coming from the kind of far left you know these are openly socialist

00:18:33.420 communist woke people there's another curious thing about navarro media which is that they

00:18:38.780 spent the last six months repositioning themselves as against identity politics and against woke

00:18:43.940 but now they're doubling down now they're going like full woke and because it's not just Bastani

00:18:49.900 the editor as well was literally crying giving an apology so uh Navarra Media what they do next is

00:18:57.800 is extremely curious well I think the thing that's really interesting about this as well

00:19:03.580 is that whenever somebody dies in these types of circumstances they get elevated and they no longer

00:19:10.020 become a person anymore they become a political symbol not only they become a political symbol

00:19:14.060 but they sort of achieve sainthood which is how you talk about how people talk about jason arday

00:19:20.960 like he was this decent honorable man who was hounded to his death he did nothing wrong and

00:19:27.840 then this is ultimately tragic and all responsibility no responsibility is at the

00:19:33.820 hands of Jason Arde because he is a saint he did nothing wrong and all of the responsibility is at

00:19:40.540 the hands of the press and the thing that's also really interesting about this is you see these

00:19:46.860 apologies coming from Novara media and the reason is is because this shows that there is still a

00:19:55.140 civil war happening at the left in the left where you have the more rational actors like

00:20:01.420 Aaron and you have the hyper progressives the more radical and I thought that the more sane

00:20:10.920 members of the left in the UK like people like Aaron were starting to gain some traction were

00:20:16.500 maybe even starting to win that particular war but what we've seen with that abject capitulation

00:20:22.520 at navara is that the lunatics unfortunately are still very much running the asylum

00:20:29.720 indeed i think tom made a really interesting point about um well what about mine

00:20:37.560 yours was a bit

00:20:46.360 tom's point about the example and frankie's point about the example that uh of what are they

00:20:50.920 responsibility this is here. As a counterexample, I was thinking of Jonathan Aiken, who was a member

00:20:57.060 of John Major's cabinet, who was convicted of perjury, and he was sentenced to 18 months. I

00:21:03.200 think, I'm not sure exactly how much of that he served, but he certainly went to prison and came

00:21:08.600 out of there. I think he then became a vicar, a prison rector or something like that. Anyway,

00:21:13.880 that's the sort of redemption. I believe in redemption, and I also believe there was

00:21:17.980 possible possibility for redemption for our day and to do that he should have apologized because

00:21:23.660 he was the one who did the wrong thing and sorry wrong thing countless wrong things i mean i've

00:21:29.120 counted well in 60 plus occasions of unverifiable or verifiable lies that he he said so i mean

00:21:35.780 they're absolutely outrageous there was a way out for him who was it who was around him saying

00:21:40.640 you know stick in there you did nothing wrong the press are evil no they should have said 0.96

00:21:44.560 sorry you've actually screwed I love you mate you've screwed up here you shouldn't have lied

00:21:50.340 there's a way out though you can apologize and actually that would have been a great story and

00:21:55.680 unfortunately what's going to happen instead is he's going to be held as some sort of martyr for

00:21:59.980 the left you can say them at the vigil what were they saying they were saying rest in power and

00:22:05.120 they've lynched him I mean the people on stage DEI grandma Diane Abbott was saying stuff like you

00:22:10.180 know he's been it's a racial murder or whatever no they're making him to a victim and there was

00:22:16.660 another redemption an actual christian redemption way out of this that could have been the example

00:22:21.700 for society it would have been so healing it would have been great yeah i think that's a really

00:22:25.680 important point perhaps to wrap the segment up on which is suicide is a temporary permanent

00:22:30.120 solution to a temporary problem and the answer in the situation where you find yourself under fair

00:22:36.000 scrutiny for something you've done or a series of things you've done there's always another way and

00:22:40.960 that way is to admit fault apologize and by the way francis and i were joking about it you know

00:22:47.120 before this tragic uh end to the story his book if he'd wrote a book after all of this whatever the

00:22:53.440 book was about would have sold millions of copies you know like your life isn't over just because

00:22:58.480 you're being criticized in the media and i think that's a really important thing to say it's like

00:23:02.720 there is always a better way and taking your own life is just never the right answer and

00:23:07.600 you know if you aren't in that situation for whatever reason ask for help talk to people

00:23:12.080 don't just sit there bottle it up and and then uh do the thing that he did uh in summary though i

00:23:18.000 think it's interesting because um as we discussed it feels like the the woke movement really petered

00:23:24.240 out and like francis was saying he did make a good point uh as grudgingly i will admit which

00:23:30.480 was about the fact that actually it felt like the bastanis of the left were winning of and i read

00:23:36.400 aaron bastani tweets most of the time oh this is a solid point you know it's a very reasonable

00:23:41.120 logical point he's made there but we are now back to where we were in the summer of 2020 not scale

00:23:47.600 wise but in terms of the framework which is you've basically got a black person who's done wrong who

00:23:53.840 is a saint and now we talked about nathan kovnas the person who was one of the people who exposed

00:23:59.600 this who is now being fired and hounded by the very same people that say hounding somebody

00:24:04.800 is wrong and that seems to me like we've actually gone full circle and we're back

00:24:09.600 where we started but anyway let's move on by the way if you want no let's not move on winston would

00:24:15.680 like to say something else so i think we should actually just focus on nathan kofnas because

00:24:19.840 sure what's happening to him now is actually a big deal um so he's been suspended and there's

00:24:25.760 significant questions about him and the thing that was most curious to me was jk rowling

00:24:30.080 coming out and saying no he's a racist now i had nathan on the show i really drilled into this he

00:24:36.760 calls himself a race realist which is which would be interesting to ask you guys whether you think

00:24:42.180 race realism is racist and jk rowling certainly thinks it is but she hasn't explained why she

00:24:49.340 thinks it is what did it and that's curious from jk rowling because she's a gender realist right so

00:24:54.880 gender and race are not the same thing you can't change gender you can't change your chromosomes

00:25:00.280 race obviously you can't change race but over several generations you would

00:25:06.640 races are diluted whereas you can't dilute out of a of your sex right so they're not the same thing

00:25:13.580 but it's it's fair to say that there are differences in different races and most famous of

00:25:23.080 proponents of this is charles murray and his famous book the bell curve and it's also the

00:25:27.880 case that politicians most famously lee kuan yu have referred to this in making policy and in

00:25:34.840 with the case of singapore it was relevant to treating malays differently because they 1.00

00:25:40.440 had different results compared to other ethnic groups like the chinese and so he was like right

00:25:44.680 we need to we need to invest more in education for the malays and and so that's basically what

00:25:51.240 Kofnus' point of view is now having interviewed him and you can watch my interview of him you can

00:25:55.560 tell me if you think he's racist I didn't think he was going into the interview I was had generally

00:26:01.000 been of the of opinion that race realism isn't probably technically racist but most of the

00:26:07.080 people who engage in it seem to be a bit icky to me so my sort of feeling was I it's just a topic

00:26:13.160 I'm not really interested in I don't see the point in in why curiously Kofnus was actually arguing

00:26:20.840 where he thinks affirmative action or uh you might call it sort of positive discrimination

00:26:27.800 or as the woke call it dei might actually be preferable because there are different outcomes

00:26:33.320 for different groups because of uh differences in iq differences in in various things and whether

00:26:39.720 it's genetic whether it's cultural there's there's mo it's multivariate anyway i wanted to ask you

00:26:45.320 whether you think race realism is racist and that that's a the question here over to you tom

00:26:53.800 i will make it i will make it because i know we do want to move on i like you winston whenever

00:26:59.080 you see someone particularly preoccupied with this topic the red flags go up to a certain degree

00:27:03.960 it's not something that i've put loads of thoughts or reading into i've been pretty kind of persuaded

00:27:08.600 by a lot of the criticisms of that perspective people like wilfred riley i know you've had him

00:27:12.760 on the show guys as well as he writes for spikes has talked about how much this is actually just

00:27:17.460 sort of cultural which is then transposed onto this idea of race and people make this like neat

00:27:21.920 comparison between those of us who are kind of trans skeptical why aren't you interested in this

00:27:26.220 race and IQ stuff I think they are quite fundamentally different things for the reason

00:27:29.800 that you say I mean gender isn't a spectrum race is it's one example but there's so sometimes at 0.98

00:27:35.500 the very least I'll say that um I remain to be convinced by those kinds of people I do sometimes

00:27:40.340 wonder about their motives although I wouldn't speak to Nathan Coughness particularly having not

00:27:43.960 sat down with him or not read his work in any detail one thing I will say is that having been

00:27:48.060 at that vigil he was the only one who's being named from the platform over and over again so

00:27:53.240 I'm not surprised at all that he's faced these professional ramifications I think they could

00:27:56.960 easily also be kind of personal security ramifications as well he has become the kind

00:28:01.460 of central villain of this story even though it's also the the press in general being dragged into

00:28:06.000 it so um if i were him i would be pretty concerned at this moment uh yeah i've so nathan engaged with

00:28:13.520 me over my uh fandom of thomas soul and he disputes a lot of the claim that thomas soul makes about

00:28:20.080 the importance of iq and the hereditary nature of iq uh i've read a lot of the stuff that he's

00:28:26.000 written my understanding is it's a fairly contested area of scientific research so

00:28:31.520 nathan represents a world view within that and you're right to say i think that people who like

00:28:37.120 to talk about this stuff are invariably dodgy but there are exceptions and i actually suspect nathan

00:28:42.960 is he strikes me as a sort of aspergy uh you know just obsessed about the black and white truth of

00:28:48.720 the matter type of thing and somebody can be interested in the truth to the point where

00:28:55.760 it's kind of that autistic people tend to get very often into this position but this is actually one 0.70

00:29:00.240 one of the ironies of the case because he's actually more autistic than our day yeah and

00:29:05.980 he's getting but i have to say i just think it's while it's an interesting conversation and we can

00:29:10.960 talk about it it's not my impression that nathan is racist and i think the answer to is race

00:29:16.080 realism racist is not necessarily but often is adopted by racist people uh and there are you

00:29:22.600 know measurable differences in iq but we don't necessarily fully understand what they're down to

00:29:27.440 nathan would argue it's overwhelmingly hereditary other people would point to you know jews arriving

00:29:33.100 in america having very low iqs and within a generation or two having pretty above average

00:29:38.460 iqs again nathan will have his own explanation for that but to me i actually think we're playing

00:29:44.000 the woke game here which is we're saying well if you're criticizing jason ardy it's it really

00:29:50.280 matters what your views are no what matters is was jason ardy a fantasist or was he not was he lying

00:29:56.620 or was he not that's what matters here and if it turns out that nathan kofnas told the racist joke

00:30:02.780 in a pub 33 years ago or whatever uh then that doesn't really matter and it's not relevant to

00:30:08.220 this discussion is my view i disagree it's absolutely the case that when it comes to the

00:30:13.100 story of our day that stands on it on its own two feet and should be right deliberated and

00:30:20.380 thought out and understood in its own two feet but there are many offshoots to this story which

00:30:25.260 are themselves important stories and the treatment of Nathan is an important one and I don't

00:30:31.760 particularly want to do episodes on race realism but it's a it's a side story that's now being

00:30:37.000 talked about because of of this and it's important to understand why the left are villainizing him

00:30:43.160 there's other sides of this story for example Simon Baron Cohen you've had him on the show

00:30:47.800 Cambridge University friend of Jason Arde he was also he's also the the director of the

00:30:54.500 Autism Institute or whatever it is called at Cambridge he was defending Arde fiercely now

00:31:03.100 it seems to me that that itself is a story right because Simon Baron Cohen should know that Arde

00:31:10.760 was not telling the truth he's indefensible and not only that it seems almost certainly the case

00:31:18.500 that Arde didn't have autism at no point as Simon Baron Cohen said in his various BBC interviews

00:31:24.980 I've heard that he himself diagnosed Arde it was it seemed that it was on his CV or self-diagnosed

00:31:31.820 but he's laying down his reputation at the feet of Jason Arde it's it's done unbelievable damage

00:31:38.960 to go away from your point of disagreement with me here though you my point was they're going to

00:31:44.880 attack nathan kofnas no matter what because they can attack him to blame him and others for covering

00:31:52.880 the story instead of blaming themselves for elevating jason ardy to to his position yes

00:31:57.280 that's all i'm saying let's move on though because i don't think this is super super important to

00:32:01.840 carry on more importantly lads we're all men here and i don't know if you know but rape in britain

00:32:06.640 is illegal uh this is a leaflet yeah it is well francis looks very surprised man your

00:32:12.640 teaching is coming into a whole new light here with that revelation guilty on all charges thank

00:32:17.680 you not guilty doesn't is not the same as innocent but anyway um so uh i don't know if you know this

00:32:25.280 but the it's it's illegal in the uk also mutilating the genitals of children apparently is as well

00:32:31.120 uh this is a leaflet we can probably throw it up on the screen that's been issued to asylum seekers

00:32:36.560 in the uk which has understanding behaviors and expectations for asylum seekers and some of the

00:32:42.800 guidance is stuff like you probably shouldn't rape people and this is absolutely fascinating

00:32:48.740 because we have for a very long time of course been told that there is absolutely no reason to 0.97

00:32:54.940 suggest that uh people coming here from other countries which uh basically i think it's fair

00:33:01.520 to say treat women sort of as a you know a second class cattle um they may have a slightly different

00:33:08.340 attitude to sexual uh behavior and in fact some of the crime statistics of course do bear that out

00:33:13.880 but what this leaflet is showing is while they are telling us that diversity is our greatest strength

00:33:18.520 and uh you know no human is illegal and all the rest of it they actually know that there's a

00:33:24.000 problem and they always did i think that's so clear for why it's probably tempting to think

00:33:29.500 that they were just blind to this that when they rebuffed the suggestion that if you imported

00:33:34.880 thousands upon thousands upon thousands of men from a country like afghanistan entrenched culture

00:33:40.600 misogyny rampant sexual violence that all those issues would just like melt away as soon as they

00:33:44.540 stepped foot on the white cliffs of dover it was tempting to think they were just like really

00:33:47.360 naive this proves that they knew all along and they just let it happen anyway and it's a it's a

00:33:53.620 grim kind of progress that we've witnessed over the course of the past 24 hours because after

00:33:57.380 years and years of whenever you would raise these concerns whenever victims would raise these

00:34:02.980 concerns you would have like an establishment which would just say shut up that's not true

00:34:07.220 this is misinformation you're being racist now i think because we've had this like steady drumbeat 0.72

00:34:12.600 of stories in the press there was one just this week of two afghans who raped a woman at knife

00:34:17.120 point in a park when she was on a first date with someone absolutely horrific story now they can't 0.91

00:34:23.120 really get away with that so the answer is okay okay i hear what you're saying let me have a word

00:34:27.660 with them that seems to be the kind of plan here like the idea that you can just even producing

00:34:32.420 this leaflet doing the graphics for it coming up with these nifty little one-liners did no one in

00:34:36.900 the room think we could just not let them in we could just send them back when they come i don't

00:34:42.620 want to sound simplistic but surely that thought passed their mind at some point so yeah it's

00:34:48.020 confirmed a lot of what we knew already but bloody hell in what fashion

00:34:52.100 i think also i mean look kemi badenoch has spoken many times about talking right and

00:35:01.860 governing left which is effectively gaslighting the conservative government over the period of

00:35:07.600 14 years gaslighting the nation on many things but particularly when it comes to immigration

00:35:12.000 promising the immigration would be lowered it wasn't lowered not only was it not lowered

00:35:16.140 it increased. Illegal immigration increased. Keir Starmer talking about smashing the gangs.

00:35:23.420 The gangs weren't smashed. Not only were the gangs not smashed, it looks like they're even

00:35:28.200 more profitable than they have ever been. And this is just another example of government

00:35:33.880 lying to us. And my concern is, number one, these horrendous crimes that are happening up and down

00:35:39.940 the country and the fact that this type of leaflet would need to be produced. But there's

00:35:45.180 is something far deeper going on here which is this is damaging our institutions and our trust

00:35:52.540 in government what is going to happen to our democracy when people go you know what what's

00:35:57.820 the point in even voting you're not going to do anything that you say you're going to do all you're

00:36:02.940 going to do is not do the thing and even worse going to lie to us and as a result of your lies

00:36:09.020 and your actions innocent people are going to be hurt and have had the most heinous crimes

00:36:14.940 inflicted upon them so why should i vote for you and then once that happens which we're pretty much

00:36:22.860 really close to we're in a very very very dangerous place societally and it's terrifying

00:36:29.980 you know when we decided to do the show francis said i'm going to be the comedic voice i'm just

00:36:35.480 going to keep up light-hearted and do the banter thanks for that mate

00:36:39.160 what were your thoughts i i was just looking up some facts before about the propensity for crime

00:36:50.400 amongst foreign nationals now foreign nationals about one in five in britain are foreign nationals

00:36:55.720 uh they are sorry i make uh so that's 10 they're sorry they're about 10 to 15 sorry 10 to 14 percent

00:37:03.220 the adult population what's actually this is a side point but amazingly difficult to get accurate

00:37:08.340 numbers on foreign nationals in britain like we actually don't know who's in our country

00:37:12.580 we don't know how many they deliberately don't collect that data yeah well we don't know how

00:37:17.780 many illegals there are there's as little as a million as many as two million but if we take

00:37:23.380 the rough uh projections foreign nationals uh account for 14 to 15 of known convictions of

00:37:30.740 sexual offences they are account for 26 to 28 percent of convictions when it comes to sexual

00:37:38.820 assault on a female and 21 to 22 percent of rape on a female age 16 or over so way higher proportion

00:37:48.980 uh convicted let alone perpetrating and and you know those who are not being convicted

00:37:54.180 than the actual proportion of the population that they represent but also it's more specific to some

00:37:59.060 nations I don't hear much about sort of German rapists but we do hear a lot about Afghans you

00:38:05.560 know was it Wayne Broadhurst the guy in Uxbridge who was murdered by an Afghan there was the

00:38:10.300 Rhiannon White the woman who was murdered by a migrant and it's very specific countries they're

00:38:16.240 coming from the UK specific evidence on Afghan crime and this is from the MOJ it's that they're

00:38:25.400 20 times higher than a brit likely to um commit uh sexual offense than a british national 20 times

00:38:32.760 higher and in germany uh the rates are not as high as that but eight to ten times higher but the data

00:38:38.840 is better in germany so um of afghans recorded uh suspect rates of roughly 1700 to 2500 per 100 000

00:38:49.000 compared with 160 to 270 per 100 000 for german nationals so eight to ten times basically certain

00:38:55.960 countries there is a higher propensity for this kind of crime and of course they don't talk about

00:39:03.400 that they they the labor left they can't talk about that instead they say all men it's a problem

00:39:07.880 with all men but actually though it's specifically it's much worse for these people from these certain

00:39:13.640 specific cultures because not all cultures are equal believe it or not and we actually have a

00:39:18.040 clip of jess phillips the the labor politician talking about this uh in exactly the way you

00:39:23.720 described i understand that it's interesting because it's to asylum seekers we also run an

00:39:29.680 enormous uh enough campaign teaching men in the country uh about how their behaviors uh were uh

00:39:37.200 could could be uh perceived uh whether that's stalking behaviors and harassment behaviors

00:39:42.680 harassment in public. That was to everybody in the country. We also have started a process

00:39:48.940 of ensuring that boys and girls in schools undertake education around the expectations

00:39:55.560 of happy, healthy relationships and actually the dangers of a lack of consent, for example.

00:40:01.820 So this is just one example of a preventative measure. I understand people are interested

00:40:05.820 because it's asylum seekers at the exact same time the home office uh ran uh ran a multi-million

00:40:12.940 pound scheme for men across the entirety of the country what is this like yeah i don't get it

00:40:23.320 yeah go ahead sorry go ahead was that jess phillips is a repeat offender where this is

00:40:28.400 there's that clip there back in 2015 2016 in the wake of those horrific sex attacks in

00:40:34.580 cologne committed by very recently arrived north african and arab migrants you know thousands upon

00:40:41.260 thousands of cases and she likened it to women getting catcalled in birmingham for friday or

00:40:46.960 saturday night so this kind of pivot that always takes place it's like the left's version of all

00:40:51.260 lives matter to a certain extent you're trying to talk about something very specific and then

00:40:55.100 they have to generalize they have to kind of shift the goalpost they have to pretend that there aren't

00:41:00.520 specific problems with specific groups and specific cultures you know when you see those signs up

00:41:05.760 on the tube saying if you press your genitals against a woman at rush hour that's not okay

00:41:10.820 who do we think that is for it's not for British citizens it's not for people who might have been

00:41:15.520 of migratory background but have been here for a couple of generations it's for people who are 0.91

00:41:19.560 coming in from cultures which again in any other context people would willingly admit have backward

00:41:25.040 reactionary attitudes towards women i mean the treatment of women in afghanistan for instance

00:41:30.980 is something that a few years ago you would be accustomed to reading a kind of panicked amnesty

00:41:35.360 international press release about it because of the ingrained culture of misogyny child marriage

00:41:40.240 forced marriage the likelihood that if a woman is raped she's she's more likely to be punished than

00:41:45.840 the perpetrator all of those kinds of things it comes like dead last georgetown university did a

00:41:50.460 kind of table for women's equality of a hundred and something countries they looked at it comes

00:41:55.580 last for every conceivable measure of women's well-being and yet again the idea is that that

00:42:00.640 will just disappear upon contact with terra firma in the uk and it's particularly strange because

00:42:05.780 everyone remember about 10 years ago there was this really frankly dumb conversation that was

00:42:10.540 going on about rape culture in the uk so there was this idea that lads mags page three dapper laughs 0.77

00:42:17.380 were essentially creating a permissive attitude amongst British people but white working class

00:42:23.460 Brits in particular towards sexual violence and yet when you're confronted with something like 0.92

00:42:27.440 Afghanistan which I think is fair to say has a rape culture or a permissive attitude or 1.00

00:42:31.640 certainly very backwards attitudes towards this particular issue suddenly you get crickets so in 1.00

00:42:38.160 some case I think it just it shows the hypocrisy but also shows the the desperation that even when

00:42:42.900 this stuff is staring them in the face they have to pivot you just think if they could just let

00:42:46.480 this go particularly the labor party would have so much more credibility they wouldn't be hanging

00:42:50.760 on to power in the way that they have been but they they can't let it go and the psychology of

00:42:55.000 why is really interesting to me well yeah it violates their sacred dogma doesn't it because

00:42:59.840 what they will always want to do is a pretend that all cultures are the same but even more

00:43:05.360 importantly when they're invariably forced to admit that some cultures are different they can't

00:43:09.560 quite make the connection between a culture being different and the people who come from that culture

00:43:14.080 being different so we can admit that afghanistan is a patriarchy because we hate patriarchy but

00:43:19.840 we can't admit that men young men who come from a patriarchal society will tend to have sexist

00:43:26.080 misogynistic and frankly rapey attitudes to women uh some of them that's not to say that all of them

00:43:32.240 are like that but in terms of the prevalence of those types of views and that type of behavior

00:43:37.360 it's incredibly more uh incredibly obvious and winston was talking about the crime statistics

00:43:43.040 of foreign nationals i actually think it's really important to make the distinction that he then went

00:43:47.200 on to make because you will have lots and lots of places around the world from which people have

00:43:52.320 come here but i don't imagine the new zealanders or like he said germans or you know people from

00:43:58.560 other societies that have similar attitudes to women's rights and so on are likely to massively

00:44:04.480 ramp up sex offensives in the uk but you do see that for people from certain regions of the world

00:44:10.960 and it's not by accident it's because the places from which they come have a different attitude

00:44:16.320 to women and if you are a woman who's ever traveled alone to those parts of the world

00:44:21.600 you will know this from your direct experience and it opens people's eyes and when they do that

00:44:26.880 in a very obvious way there's another also look no i was just going to say like do this little

00:44:34.400 thought experiment imagine those stats applied to white men what do you think the guardian headlines

00:44:40.560 would be. I would guarantee they would run that story all day, every day, three times at breakfast

00:44:47.500 time. But they simply can't do it. And do you know why? It's because anybody who talks, let's

00:44:53.800 imagine Aaron Bastani decided to talk about that story openly and honestly on Navarra Media.

00:45:00.240 Aaron would have to release a video every day apologizing. Because that's what happens in the

00:45:07.020 left when you go against your own team or one of their supposed mantras. You can't do it. Even

00:45:14.520 when you tweet something as innocuous as saying Jason Arday was a con man, you can't do it. And

00:45:22.080 if you do do it, you've got two options. You either apologise or you get kicked out by your

00:45:26.980 own side. What's it going to be? And that's the dilemma everybody on the left faces.

00:45:32.300 One last word on this before we run. 0.80

00:45:33.900 there's another logic fallacy or contradiction which is that if all men it's a problem for all

00:45:40.800 men in britain already not just foreign nationals then that implies that it is our culture to

00:45:47.780 sexually abuse women and so actually these people don't need a pamphlet because they are just the

00:45:53.040 same as all the other men so it's like not necessarily not necessarily in in the first place

00:45:57.520 uh well the other issue of course with immigration there's been a big debate this week

00:46:03.800 is finally after many years and i've been advocating for this obvious policy for for years now uh there

00:46:10.360 is uh apparently a debate in the uk i don't know why it's a debate it's a self-evident thing that

00:46:15.720 needs to be done about the fact that foreign nationals in britain should not have access to

00:46:20.280 the benefit system and uh the reform party and also i think restore have both uh been talking

00:46:26.360 about this i believe the tories have now adopted it as well so effectively the entire center center

00:46:31.480 right is now come to around to this position which as i say i think is eminently sensible

00:46:36.600 but there's now a debate we're having a debate about people from whether people from other

00:46:41.240 countries should get taxpayers money in the uk and i'm just i don't really we we seem to just

00:46:48.760 this is the thing that seems to happen in our country now every week where we just have some

00:46:53.080 sort of moronic debate about something that is incredibly obvious and i say this i'm going to

00:46:59.960 use my privilege you know immigrant privilege here as someone who lived in this country as a 0.82

00:47:04.760 foreign national for many years it would never have occurred to me to even attempt to claim

00:47:09.560 benefits not least because the visa you get in your passport when you come here says no recourse

00:47:16.120 to public funds but apparently once you get on indefinitely to remain or once you get onto other

00:47:22.200 forms of of visas that you can have in this country you now have access to the benefit system 0.94

00:47:27.000 you can live in social housing if you're an asylum seeker we just pay for you to to do whatever it

00:47:31.720 is you need to do dental appointments and so on how is this even a debate no it is yeah isn't it 0.99

00:47:38.680 because when you talk to people if you said kind of thought experiment you move to another country

00:47:43.160 could be somewhere in europe could be somewhere more far flung would you expect in relatively

00:47:47.080 short order to be able to just go on the dole they would be like of course not the assumption

00:47:50.840 would be if you couldn't support yourself you might go back to the country that you came from

00:47:54.360 you might find some other way of supporting yourself it's uh particularly kind of british

00:47:59.880 mania we have in this particular area and it does speak to the fact that just the idea of

00:48:04.200 citizenship has just been so diluted and degraded it should mean something of course it should also

00:48:10.120 mean that people are able to join it provided that they've contributed provided that they've

00:48:13.960 integrated all of those all of those things that basically everyone agrees with but um the fact

00:48:19.480 that just by being here or just by being here for a certain amount of time that this kind of

00:48:23.640 automatically kicks in. It's such a casual way to think about joining a country or being part

00:48:29.960 of a country. And it's also just completely destroying any sort of faith or support in

00:48:34.900 the welfare system. People need to feel like when state funds or when taxpayers funds really

00:48:40.220 are being doled out, that they're being doled out for the right reasons into people who you can

00:48:44.720 kind of think of as part of the we of a country. As soon as that breaks down, and this is why I

00:48:50.400 think Labour should recognise this being they are the kind of premier welfarist party the whole

00:48:55.060 basis on which that kind of system has public support just corrodes I think that the one

00:49:02.320 wrinkle in all of this is because people got so used to indefinite leave to remain there probably

00:49:05.840 will be a lot of people who for all intents and purposes are integrated are part of the

00:49:10.380 national community have got kids with a British partner just never bothered to make that extra

00:49:15.900 step towards citizenship who might get kind of caught up in the mix of all of that but broadly

00:49:20.020 speaking i completely agree citizenship has to mean something yeah and i have friends like that

00:49:24.120 sorry to interrupt but i have friends like that and there is an obvious solution there which is

00:49:30.180 okay look we understand you maybe wasn't weren't that keen for whatever reason it takes a bit of

00:49:35.100 money it takes a bit of time etc in the situation our country finds itself in we're going to have to

00:49:40.840 be a little bit more strict about how this is done so please apply for a british nationality

00:49:45.380 would be happy if you've lived here for 20 years and fully integrated go for it that's fine uh

00:49:50.420 winston francis thoughts well uh so just on some details because this is this is worth uh just

00:50:00.260 highlighting so there's about 1.26 to 1.3 million people in britain and in in the uk uh on universal

00:50:08.020 credit they are claiming over 10 billion pounds a year and uh so those are non-uk uh or irish

00:50:18.280 nationals right so of the 7.5 to 9 million foreign nationals in the uk 1.26 1.3 on universal credit

00:50:27.060 another 620 000 are on other benefits which means that there's something like one in four foreign

00:50:34.400 nationals in the uk are on some sort of benefits and i mean it's extraordinarily high and they're

00:50:41.440 claiming over 10 billion pounds a year in a country where with three three million three

00:50:46.820 trillion pounds worth of debt and we're spending 100 billion on debt interest each year right so

00:50:51.900 just for some context there as for how this came about i'm trying to understand this like did we

00:50:57.160 become more relaxed like why is it that this is has become the case and actually we've actually

00:51:02.500 always been quite strict on who can claim such benefits and this goes all the way back to the

00:51:11.400 poor laws where you had to have legal settlement in a parish if you wanted to claim benefits it

00:51:17.360 goes through the old age pension act in 1908 and and it continues what's changed is not that the

00:51:22.900 law on who can claim it it's changed is how many more people have become within the defined

00:51:32.120 defined as settled and so as you say whether it's asylum seeker indefinitely for remain

00:51:37.920 or various different settlement where they can apply this has jumped that's what's actually

00:51:41.720 changed and it's jumped massively since 2020 in 2022 there were only 900 i mean i say only 900

00:51:47.820 000 is extraordinarily high number but they're 900 000 so 400 000 more people on universal credit

00:51:54.360 since 2022 so it's because of the how they can uh claim to be settled and so they pass through

00:52:02.960 the hoops that way so that's the the big uh change as far as i've understood it now where there's

00:52:08.680 i think maybe a debate is if they're playing national insurance rather than if they're paying

00:52:15.880 just their taxes uh income tax um national insurance like is there an argument there that

00:52:22.520 they should have some sort of claim on on the pension that would come from from that i think

00:52:27.820 that there is an argument i would take the same position was that if you're a foreign national

00:52:31.640 you don't you still have to pay for the privilege of being in our country but you don't get to enjoy

00:52:37.440 the benefits unless you become a citizen so there's an incentive to become a citizen actually

00:52:41.460 buy into the system and and probably be a part of it but there's also i guess the argument is that

00:52:46.340 maybe employers would should be given a relief where they don't have to pay for the pension

00:52:51.240 of employees if they they are foreign nationals and that might ease these things for employers

00:52:58.900 i i don't know so that seems like a small detail to like get bogged down in the big headline though

00:53:03.700 is that we've just let anyone in and become uh settled and well this is this is really the

00:53:10.200 problem with mass immigration right is you can have a very relaxed posture towards many many many

00:53:16.260 things until you bring in millions of people in a very short space of time in which case the entire

00:53:22.680 system completely breaks down not because the rules were actually bad necessarily in and of

00:53:28.720 themselves but because they're incompatible with a fraying society with plummeting levels of social

00:53:34.800 trust and and all of the other consequences that ensue when when you have you know millions and

00:53:40.620 millions people are not by the way tom made the point about the labor government let's be honest

00:53:44.640 this all happened under the conservative government this is not a left versus right 0.99

00:53:49.340 thing it's a stupid versus not stupid thing and i'm glad finally that there are some non-stupid 0.99

00:53:55.260 people in the politics are waking up to this reality what do you think francis well i think 0.99

00:54:00.340 what this what this is is look let's put it in real world terms we're broke this country is

00:54:08.100 absolutely broke. In real terms, since 2020, our currency has lost 40% of its value. We've got

00:54:16.260 100% debt to GDP ratio. We can't afford to do this anymore. It really is that simple. So we either

00:54:25.240 deal with the fact that a few people are going to start kicking and screaming, calling everyone

00:54:29.260 racist, or we're going to do essentially things that are bringing in policies that are needed

00:54:35.900 to prevent us from going bankrupt as a country. That is where we are. And the reason we are

00:54:43.620 bankrupt as a country, and we spoke about it with Peter Hitchens on our interview in

00:54:48.460 Trigonometry, is because we have been delusional for far too long. We've been delusional about

00:54:55.900 immigration. We've been delusional about public finances and public spending. We've been delusional 0.55

00:55:01.300 about the issue of men and women and there's a whole host of subjects that we have been delusional

00:55:06.600 about and you know what you can be delusional for a bit you can you know have the occasional

00:55:12.000 period of your life where you know what you go reality doesn't matter i'm gonna kick back and

00:55:17.260 relax you know and just live a life where reality doesn't apply to me but the problem is is when

00:55:25.440 you're doing that eventually you're going to be like that bloke who's in his mid-40s goes you

00:55:30.320 what don't need the wife mate don't need the kids gonna go to the strip cup i'm gonna live life

00:55:35.440 i'm gonna be who i am it's gonna be great well eventually you're gonna wake up one day realize

00:55:40.640 you lost your house the wife and the kids and all of a sudden realities come home to roost and

00:55:45.760 unfortunately the uk at the moment is in danger of living in a bedsit with a bottle of whiskey

00:55:51.280 for company it's not based on my own life by the way you should have an intimate knowledge of this

00:55:58.160 situation man exactly uh well guys we're gonna overrun a little bit because i do want to cover

00:56:06.880 this final story before we do though i just wanted to say if you're watching this and you've enjoyed

00:56:11.360 it uh there's two things we needed to do number one we haven't got a name for this show uh so give

00:56:16.960 us your funniest most outrageous ideas and we'll play around with them and see if we want to run

00:56:21.520 with them number two if you've enjoyed it tell us in the comments tell us what you thought what you

00:56:25.920 liked what you didn't like what you'd like us to improve obviously smash the like button obviously

00:56:30.240 subscribe anyway gentlemen speaking of delusions one of the things that i've been covering for a

00:56:35.840 long time is the ongoing derangement on what i think is mostly the american center center right

00:56:43.120 basically you have in america sort of normal rational right-wing people and conservatives

00:56:49.120 and then you have the sort of andrew tate nick fuentes tucker carlson uh candace owens wing

00:56:56.720 which are increasingly becoming these rabid conspiratorial lunatics and you saw this i 1.00

00:57:01.600 don't know if you watched the great debate uh it was very popular between candace owens and andrew

00:57:06.800 wilson in which they discussed who really did murder charlie kirk now obviously the trial

00:57:11.200 hasn't happened so we can't make any factual claims and one thing i will say about our beautiful

00:57:16.880 country is one of the things i have really appreciated during this time is mortising that

00:57:22.320 we have laws which prevent people from commenting on ongoing trials and thinking me what a great

00:57:27.440 idea this has turned out to be because if you look at what's happening with the charity case

00:57:31.680 over there you're going oh my god but anyway setting aside the factual stuff there is just

00:57:36.800 this now thing in america on the right where it's like uh israel is the new russia now so if anyone's

00:57:42.800 done anything if you know someone's got elected they don't like it's israel if something which

00:57:46.960 used to be russia of course you know 10 years ago um and and and so and you saw andrew wilson

00:57:52.720 asking candace owens in this debate you know what is your evidence for these things that you're

00:57:57.040 saying that erica kirk is complicit in the murder of your husband and her evidence was basically

00:58:02.320 well my audience likes it that is you know in the summary of what she said she said i'm entitled to

00:58:07.920 think this and clearly my audience is engaging with this what do we think is going on that's

00:58:13.640 incredible isn't it I think you more than anyone else Constantine have been instrumental in not

00:58:18.500 just pointing out but mocking the brain rot that is Candace Owens at this point so you're doing

00:58:22.640 God's work but that is concern but it has been grimly fascinating hasn't it watching a sort of 0.95

00:58:27.380 spiral into conspiratorialism naturally what's at the end of every conspiracy theory the Jews 0.98

00:58:32.980 loosely dressed up as Israel these days but we know what it is they're talking about I just found 0.99

00:58:37.500 it was like kind of stare watching that debate was like kind of staring into a parallel universe

00:58:41.900 um where up is down left is right what is the basis of evidence for any particular claim

00:58:47.040 doesn't really matter she would talk about intuition gut feeling anonymous sources that

00:58:52.700 you just have to take as read i mean she was claiming what the not only did would was israel

00:58:57.580 and potentially erica kirk complicit or involved in the murder of charlie kirk but also that the

00:59:02.580 french foreign legion were trying to kill her presumably because of a campaign against that

00:59:07.320 bloke that emmanuel macron married like all of this stuff is just totally unmoored in the way

00:59:11.520 in which we usually think about things um and it's uh it's kind it would be uh funny if it wasn't so

00:59:17.260 tragic because it does seem to have a constituency now and one thing that i think is really interesting

00:59:21.320 about the kind of conspiratorial mind as you see summed up in someone like candy zones is that it

00:59:26.640 presents itself as very questioning i'm just asking questions is the cliche i'm entitled to

00:59:31.080 my opinions i'm entitled to dissent but it's also it's based on a level of kind of certainty that

00:59:35.560 you don't get in normal life i mean most times when a court case makes its way through and

00:59:40.280 someone is convicted it's a beyond reasonable doubt broadly speaking people think even though

00:59:44.820 there is some doubt there we we've come to the conclusion that the evidence weighs in a

00:59:49.500 particular in a particular direction at the beginning of that debate she said that she was

00:59:53.780 zero percent convinced that tyler rogerson was the killer and that's its own form of blind faith in

01:00:00.100 a strange kind of way so yeah i think we are going to get more of it we're probably going to get more

01:00:02.900 of it over here in the uk it just hasn't quite filtered over just yet it seems like do you know

01:00:08.800 what when i was watching it number one my primary thought was i want every minute that i've spent

01:00:14.420 watching this and i want it reimbursed to me number one number two you look through the

01:00:20.420 comments the comments are fascinating because you're going all right literally doesn't matter

01:00:25.340 what candace would have said her audience would have backed her to the hill yeah they were utterly

01:00:29.860 delusional and number three i kept thinking this this would not have been anywhere near as popular

01:00:36.400 before covid i think covid basically gave an entire generation of people brain rot where nobody

01:00:45.000 trusts institutions nobody trusts government nobody trusts the law or the police and as a 0.94

01:00:51.620 result everyone's like well the obvious thing can't be the obvious thing i mean it's the french

01:00:56.780 foreign legion i mean that's mental i mean who knows where was the last time you heard about the

01:01:04.540 french foreign legion it's insane i mean israel i'll be like all right that's a bit hacked i mean

01:01:12.700 give her credit mate at least she's come up with some new theories yeah some new material exactly

01:01:17.580 yeah she's she's she's gone up a level but it's just an interesting thing you say you know post

01:01:22.700 covid people have lost faith in institutions that's understandable and look there's good and

01:01:28.860 bad and there's some institutions that are good and bad etc but how do you go from having no faith

01:01:34.540 in institutions to now having faith in the intuitions and dreams of candace owens because

01:01:39.580 you don't have to go there right you could just say well clearly you know we will lie to about

01:01:44.700 the origins of the virus clearly in their attempt to prioritize public health they downrank the

01:01:51.020 importance of truth and therefore misled us about you know the side effects of the back or whatever

01:01:56.300 whatever it is but you don't then have to go into the derangement on the other side

01:02:00.700 but a lot of people seem to be making that leap winston i just want to start by saying actually

01:02:06.620 my resentment on this issue is that you constantin for choosing this topic uh this four hour long

01:02:14.300 video that i suffered through two hours of generally a horrible experience it reminded

01:02:21.260 me of all the negative experiences with women i've had in relationships but without any of the 0.88

01:02:27.180 positives bundled into one and sort of a woman who doesn't at any point engage with the logic

01:02:33.100 of the argument but does everything to sort of run circles and just so you have this wilson lad who's

01:02:39.020 shaking and frustration i i was shaking in frustration it's so insufferable uh uh listening

01:02:45.020 to her and uh in in that particular uh conversation and i'd also note that this is a woman who has 0.97

01:02:51.100 been doing medieval blood libel uh for the last as early as uh summer 2024 so this is this is a

01:02:58.700 woman who's a bit nuts but if i can push back against all of you uh tom you're saying there's

01:03:03.020 there's a sort of increased constituency 0.68

01:03:04.900 for this kind of thought.

01:03:06.260 Actually, at the political level,

01:03:09.420 these kind of people don't seem to be that popular.

01:03:12.920 Or people who are adjacent in their thinking.

01:03:16.060 I think of Fishback in Florida, who is not done well.

01:03:20.200 I think of Thomas Massey.

01:03:22.460 I think of Marjorie Taylor Greene.

01:03:25.480 They might not actually think the same as Candace

01:03:28.360 on these specific issues,

01:03:29.260 but there's a bundle of people

01:03:30.600 who have a sort of similar type of view.

01:03:32.880 And actually at the polls, it's not working.

01:03:36.300 And so then we come to think of who is actually engaging with this stuff.

01:03:40.080 Is it actually Americans?

01:03:41.460 I mean, I'm sure there's a considerable amount of people in America,

01:03:43.980 but is it people around the world?

01:03:46.480 Is it, when it comes to the anti-Israel stuff,

01:03:50.420 is it actually people in the Middle East?

01:03:52.440 Is it, you know, there's no doubt that there's worse anti-Semitism in Britain

01:03:57.720 in my lifetime.

01:03:59.100 I'm not denying for a second that it's terrible here.

01:04:02.380 But how popular it really is, it's not.

01:04:05.340 Have you guys actually got a sense of that?

01:04:07.220 Like, can we actually say legitimately this is a mainstream thought

01:04:10.740 or this is a really popular thought in America right now?

01:04:14.260 I think it's hard to deny that there are a lot of people in America

01:04:17.220 who are interested.

01:04:18.900 I mean, when Joe Rogan says he's interested in Candace's perspective on this,

01:04:22.660 you kind of go, Joe loves conspiracies.

01:04:25.540 He always has done, etc.

01:04:26.940 And this was the other point I was going to make.

01:04:28.780 By the way, I think you're right.

01:04:29.820 you know a lot of tucker's audience has been demonstrated to be from muslim countries not

01:04:34.540 in america and a lot of candace's own audience as well but a lot of it is in america you're right

01:04:39.980 that it hasn't had the impact uh politically um but i've forgotten what i was going to say about

01:04:47.980 the the yeah i've forgotten what i was going to say about what i forgot what i was going to say

01:04:53.500 um yeah good but no it is especially especially because of the fact that um we've got conspiratorial

01:05:01.500 thinking everywhere now though i mean if you made the point tom i'm sorry this is what i was going

01:05:06.060 to say this is what i was going to say to winston's challenge sorry mate it's not new though is it

01:05:10.780 because look how big alex jones was at one point talking about stuff like this and sandy hook and

01:05:15.340 whatever there's something in the american psyche and you guys know how much francis and i love going

01:05:20.460 into america but i think i've said this before i think it's the flip side of the american dream

01:05:24.720 which is if you live in a society where like anything is possible and it's amazing well

01:05:28.680 like anything is possible you know maybe the french foreign legion did kill charlie kirk

01:05:32.940 together with erica kirk for the benefit of benjamin netanyard do you know what i mean like

01:05:36.660 and and maybe maybe the one thing we probably don't appreciate enough is how exciting and

01:05:43.300 enjoyable it is to engage in this sort of thinking because it makes life special it makes you special

01:05:50.160 you have this unique insight francis has made this point very often that this is often what

01:05:55.140 drives a lot of these conversations sorry to interrupt tom no not so and off the back of that

01:05:59.760 i think that's one part of the appeal certainly of alex jones when he was really at the height

01:06:03.440 of his pomp and before he got kicked off of various platforms was that there's an element

01:06:07.140 of this which is enjoyed as a form of performance as well i mean he's a particularly kind of

01:06:11.600 pyrotechnic spectacular example of this you know the turn in the frogs gay etc but um even with

01:06:17.680 Candace Owens when you see her actually on her own show it's a kind of there's an element of drama to

01:06:23.280 it there's an element of performance and as you say there is also it maps on to something which

01:06:28.920 has always existed in American society certainly in the 20th century which is this appetite for

01:06:34.280 conspiracy theory to a certain extent it's almost recreational for some people you notice like they

01:06:39.620 kind of get into it get into a particular theory move on to another one so sometimes it's not taken

01:06:44.420 literally but it is by many people taken quite seriously maybe it's because of that hostility

01:06:49.300 to the state that they have on a much higher level than certainly a lot of european countries have

01:06:53.920 it's hard to work out where it sort of comes from but also it goes across the political spectrum now

01:06:58.560 which is the point i was going to make which is that you make the point constant about how we've

01:07:02.280 gone from everything that goes wrong every assassination every murder it suddenly becomes

01:07:08.080 russia's fault we've now flipped to israel but you know the russiagate scandal showed that that

01:07:12.420 was just liberal left conspiracy theorizing and yet and the thing was much more dangerous about

01:07:17.600 it was that it passed like the math the Martha's Vineyard dinner table test whereas what Candace

01:07:22.700 Owens is talking about or certainly what Alex Jones is talking about is going to get you laughed

01:07:26.260 out of the room if you're at a newspaper or on Capitol Hill so I think there is still that the

01:07:31.200 extent to which you've got conspiracy theories and you've got the kind of acceptable conspiracy

01:07:34.780 theories and in a way it's that it's the latter camp which can be more dangerous because it is

01:07:38.400 taken with a lot more credence it looks like well also america is the country of cults if you think

01:07:44.880 about a lot of the most famous cults there are a lot of them were in america and what does every

01:07:50.340 cult have it has a charismatic leader who basically talks bollocks and but does it in a charismatic

01:07:55.900 fashion and everybody goes along with them whatever the cult is and whatever the message is

01:08:01.100 and basically candace is an online version of that she sits there she talks about bollocks but

01:08:06.040 because she does it in a way that is engaging and people find it entertaining they go along with it

01:08:12.120 i think that's a really good point simple that's a really good point what's interesting to me though

01:08:17.240 is the embrace of the stuff i mean hunter biden to me is an incredible conundrum not him himself

01:08:24.200 there's nothing super interesting about him but he's now sort of being embraced as like this voice

01:08:30.440 of and i just you take for some reason there's this thing about where you take some of the most

01:08:36.360 personally reprehensible human beings on the planet and then they go on these conservative

01:08:42.200 massive shows and are presented as being like a valid person to talk to i mean hunter biden is 1.00

01:08:49.160 famous for slapping around hookers while snorting cocaine off their asses like what is what what is 0.98

01:08:55.560 that why is that why are we listening to him maybe we should interview him trigonometry is what i'm 0.99

01:09:00.120 saying you should definitely do yeah yeah i look i think charisma is is is a we don't talk about it

01:09:10.520 enough charisma is so important it's so important for spreading a message it's so important if you

01:09:18.580 are a public person in any sphere and if you are very charismatic you can basically sell what's

01:09:27.380 famous adage he's so you know he's so good at selling he's so charismatic he can sell ice to

01:09:32.500 the eskimos i mean that's what that's what candace is doing sometimes the most obvious explanation

01:09:39.140 is the correct one well and also cult leaders like making money candace was paid something like 300

01:09:46.820 grand for this interview i i don't know how much andrew wilson was being paid they were certainly

01:09:51.540 doing ads throughout it i have my money i think i think it was like he kind of threw the gauntlet

01:09:56.260 he is paying her he paid her 300 grand yeah yeah and by the way the stream like you said

01:10:03.300 sorry to interrupt just to just to add to your point the stream has now got five and a half

01:10:07.380 million views and there's youtube ads all the way through it yeah excellent well next week

01:10:13.060 it won't be winston and tom it will be candace owens and andrew wilson joining us on this show

01:10:18.820 because clearly that is that is what the people want and it is our job to deliver it gentlemen

01:10:24.260 It's been an absolute pleasure.

01:10:25.560 Thank you for your time.

01:10:26.220 We have overrun massively, which is a great strong start.

01:10:30.300 Thanks all for being here.

01:10:31.360 Make sure you subscribe to The Winston Marshall Show.

01:10:33.320 Make sure you subscribe to Spike.

01:10:34.740 And, of course, subscribe to Trigonometry.

01:10:36.940 And we will see you next week while we will all try to be slightly more cult-like and charismatic.

TRIGGERnometry - August 21, 2026

Woke is Back and It's Worse Than Before

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