00:00:54.100Yeah. So am I right? 200 billion? Is that is that I want to make sure off the top that I've said the right number?
00:00:59.100Yeah. So that's a cumulative. It's a rough estimate, but but that's that's pretty close on the mark there.
00:01:04.920And so when you're looking at where this money is coming from, there's two separate departments.
00:01:09.480One is the ISC, which is the Indigenous Services of Canada.
00:01:14.560And that bureaucracy covers more health, education, child welfare, income assistance, kind of social program stuff.
00:01:23.920And then there's CERNAC, which is the Crown Indigenous Relations in Northern Affairs Canada Department, which oversees treaties, claims and settlements.
00:01:35.380So that would be more the law side of things.
00:01:38.620And so that number that you're referencing is the the total between those two.
00:01:45.100OK, and there's no single federal like federal truth and reconciliation program per se.
00:01:50.460These are managed by separate elements, as you're pointing out.
00:01:54.840So putting that number together is, I should say, a little bit of an estimate.
00:01:59.060So on the budget, they'll list it as Indigenous priorities,
00:02:02.440but that's a catch-all, that's an umbrella term for those two departments.
00:02:07.820Okay, so let's go through the timeline, Liam, if you don't mind.
00:02:10.920So 2015, we come to an agreement that we're going to start to reconcile
00:02:15.600what has been done to our Indigenous people.
00:02:18.360But this is a moment where I should say to you, my entire life growing up, respect for our indigenous community was a big deal.
00:02:27.000My school, my family, certainly here in Ontario.
00:02:30.060It was something that was part of our pride factor that we had come from this nation of people.
00:02:37.880By 2015, we're starting to understand that some reparations need to be made.
00:03:14.900it was about $11.4 billion in spending towards trying to achieve those 94 goals. And then by
00:03:24.2202024 to 2025 budget year, it was $32 billion. So up 181% over that time. And so all of this is
00:03:35.700going towards those, what the settlements and then also the call to actions, because a lot of
00:03:42.620legal frameworks have opened up since then uh for for people to make claims indigenous people to
00:03:48.560make claims against the government on hey before we go any further please hit the subscribe button
00:03:53.900right now if you want the raw debates the full uncut conversations you won't see here head
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00:04:04.840happens behind the paywall all right back to the show and uh to this point so the indigenous
00:04:10.820priority spending is about 32 billion dollars as you point out what what is that what does that
00:04:15.940cover same same exact things so that would be that would be your law side and then so any settlements
00:04:23.940and then also the social spendings health health education child welfare income assistance housing
00:04:29.780and water on reserves uh interesting that uh i see a number here uh isc and cernac uh actually
00:04:38.020have spent between $61 billion and $40 billion, almost $41 billion between 2023 and 2025.
00:04:48.220Yeah. So the numbers are definitely growing. And that's where we get to when you look at
00:04:55.080what is actually coming out of this, like what are the tangible results? It's not that great.
00:05:04.540yeah we're not well yeah the pbo actually said the increase in spending did not result
00:05:10.080in a commensurate increase in the ability of organizations to achieve their targets
00:05:15.340correct so there's an indigenous watchdog which is head by douglas sinclair and so out of those
00:05:23.880call to actions that came on the back of trc was uh 14 of them have been completed 41 are in progress
00:05:33.74024 have stalled and 15 have not started yet. A separate institute called the Yellowhead Institute,
00:05:42.220they actually stopped tracking in 2023 when they came out with the number that there's only been
00:05:47.68013 of those called actions met. And they said at this rate, project completion would actually take
00:05:54.500until 2081 to hit all of those markers. And, you know, if the program were to run that long,
00:06:02.060You could expect to see, yeah, a similar incline, I would imagine, on spending, annual spending.
00:06:11.280Yeah, I mean, over a 10-year period, it went up, it tripled.
00:06:15.740So if that continues to be the pattern that we see, it isn't long before this program overall is one of the most expensive things our government spends money on.
00:06:27.180It's up there with health transfers, especially on the federal side, with health transfers, interest payments on government debt, and so on.
00:06:36.320It's definitely in that top five expenditure bundle.
00:06:40.700Liam, this is interesting to me as well.
00:06:43.200Let's take a look at what the money's bought so far.
00:06:45.780$5.2 billion has been spent on getting water into areas that desperately need it.
00:06:54.32038 remain in 36 communities uh five billion dollars to get water uh into under 200 communities
00:07:04.480seems like an awful lot of money uh of course uh i'm not an expert yeah well and i think this goes
00:07:12.180to a larger issue that comes around these kind of ideas which is that even actually too there's been
00:07:21.580some indigenous watchdogs that have come forward and said, yeah, and oh, sorry, not indigenous
00:07:27.960watchdog. This was Tom Flanagan from the Fraser Institute, who was saying that, yeah, simply
00:07:32.720increasing money transfers to First Nations doesn't necessarily produce improvements in measured
00:07:38.500well being. And the reason for that is because a lot of the ways that these reserves are structured.
00:07:45.780and so for instance there's not property rights a lot of the stuff is owned by the uh the tribal
00:07:54.140band and then it's essentially leased to the people there right and so even that when it comes
00:07:59.800to kind of this more it it would resemble on a much smaller scale a socialist economic system
00:08:07.660well what we've seen many of the times when those economies are put into practice then
00:08:12.540If nobody really owns the thing, then there's not, um, an incentive for, uh, maintenance and production and so on.
00:08:23.140Exactly. That pride of ownership, uh, goes a long way to how a community maintains itself.
00:08:30.700Right. And actually, and sorry, there actually was, uh, Harold Kala, I believe is how you pronounce that last name.
00:08:36.820But he actually, this was the one that I was thinking about in regard to the, uh, the indigenous watchdog, he, uh, First Nations Financial Management Board in April, 2026, he even said as well that, you know, if we're going to quote, if it were going to be faced through government transfers, I have to feel it would have already been done by now.
00:08:58.260And so as you're pointing to, I think the issue is a lot larger than just finances, because there's no reason that you would still be having boiling water on many of the advisories on many of these reserves when billions of dollars have already been spent.
00:09:17.060There's got to be there's got to be another issue along the way.
00:09:19.800Well, you talk about housing, three point eight billion, almost four billion dollars over five years has met only 21 percent of the need for new homes.
00:09:28.260uh in the indigenous communities that have been uh outreached and 20 percent uh are in need of
00:09:34.260repairs so we're almost uh four billion dollars into building homes and we're not even a quarter
00:09:40.340of the way there right and so this is where i don't think the dichotomy or the discussions
00:09:48.260should so much be around say canadians versus indigenous peoples it's there's actually four
00:09:55.780groups because most of the discussion gets broken down into those two where there's four groups
00:10:00.260there's the ruling class of the canadians there's the everyday canadians there's the ruling class
00:10:07.460of the indigenous bands and then there's the everyday indigenous people and often i think
00:10:12.580the accountability in the discussion needs to revolve around those two leadership groups the
00:10:19.460two ruling classes to to come forward with these answers and go where is all this money coming from
00:10:25.460because right now they make it seem like people having the discussion on the everyday that that's
00:10:32.900that there's this false dichotomy between canadians and indigenous but at the other end it's like
00:10:39.140actually the indigenous community that isn't part of that ruling clique uh is they're not benefiting
00:10:46.900from this and so it's not they're very much in the same class as the average canadian struggling to
00:10:51.700to get by. Meanwhile, like we point out, $200-plus billion has floated out to that community that's
00:10:59.520not really getting to the people that need the water, that need the housing, that should
00:11:03.840feel a sense of ownership and lifelong community. When you're given a lease on something,
00:11:12.000you don't feel like you're leaving it as a legacy at all. And so I think that we've maybe done a
00:11:19.140of disservice in this entire uh process by not saying okay this should be for individuals who
00:11:26.500are indigenous not based on an overarching element yes communities need support uh infrastructure
00:11:34.580needs support you know training whatever the case might be and then the basics of course are housing
00:11:40.580water and accessibility and once those are met on a personal level for everybody i think you know
00:11:49.140every boat rises with the tide so if we can do that but i don't think that as you point out it
00:11:54.820doesn't i wouldn't feel all that fantastic about being told okay we're going to reconcile this
00:12:00.900we've told the truth now we're going to reconcile it and in your community we're going to let you
00:12:05.140lease uh you know a three-bedroom home for as long as you want at this reduced price well thank you
00:12:11.860but i would like to own my own home one day i would like to put a garden in and leave it to my
00:12:16.580children that element of the humanity of this i think is missing if not certain cultural elements
00:12:23.860of it as well yeah and i'm completely on board with that and i think there is this too there is
00:12:30.180this um kind of a little bit of double think going on when it comes to these topics because
00:12:37.860for instance we'll look at the material conditions on the reserves and then we'll say this is so
00:12:45.380terrible that in in many cases it is when you especially when you compare it to general uh
00:12:51.540outside of the reserves but then we also say that it's not on us to and that in many cases the
00:13:00.820people on these reserves don't value the same material and economic striving that we do in
00:13:08.900terms of like they that's not their primary uh goal is to build their economies right
00:13:14.260they want to focus on other things and i think that is fine i don't think that we should force
00:13:20.020them to do that but then we also i don't think if like i was saying we look at how these reserves
00:13:27.380are structured where economies can't grow because it's entirely managed it's not there isn't anything
00:13:34.580that would uh resemble free trade happening on these reserves then we can't be shocked
00:13:42.740when they don't produce the same results it's like we have to look at the fact that these are
00:13:47.780different uh systems entirely not just different groups uh it's funny that you say that liam
00:13:53.860because you know as i've traveled canada uh over the the past number of months and you know i've
00:13:58.580been to a lot of different places between ontario and victoria um with a lot of indigenous entrepreneurs
00:14:06.580along the way i mean we're starting to see uh you know fairly sizable investment firms that
00:14:13.060are indigenous based that are going to be doing fairly large projects here in the country so it
00:14:18.420is good to see that element of commerce being introduced at least the accessibility to it uh
00:14:26.100so that the communities have that option as you point out no nobody says you have to but to become
00:14:32.740self-reliant there needs to be a certain focus on that and if self-reliance as a culture as a
00:14:38.240community is the focus uh probably you'll do different things with those communities you'll
00:14:43.220create infrastructure that builds business you'll create infrastructure that drives tourism
00:14:47.900uh you you know alongside rebuilding what culturally you need to feel comfortable in
00:14:53.420those communities as an indigenous person right and yeah i think i think you you nailed out there
00:14:59.800where, hey, if they want that opportunity, then it should be granted to them. But yeah, if that's
00:15:07.320something that they don't want, that they don't value, then as I was saying, I don't think we can
00:15:11.460sit there and act shocked when different results come out the other end of it. Federal education
00:15:17.820funding has nearly doubled since 2023. And the Indigenous Child and Family Services laws
00:15:25.340uh are now in force with 19 new laws on the book specific to that culture that's a fairly
00:15:33.000major undertaking in both of those categories enjoying the conversation on tpl well sign up
00:15:38.860for our free news update and get a tailored email with the stories topics and shows that
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00:15:49.260of today yeah and in two just like we see and this this i think goes far outside of just what's
00:15:58.700going on in indigenous communities as well but when we look at the general state of canadian
00:16:05.540education we are pouring more money into them but we're not seeing a turn in results and again this
00:16:13.880goes back to that exact same, essentially logical fallacy that believing every issue is just a
00:16:20.720financing issue. Whereas if your education, again, is built, if the entire system is built on false
00:16:27.580assumptions about what education is or how it should operate, then no amount of money, if you
00:16:34.660look at it just like any other business, right? It's like, if the business doesn't have a good
00:16:38.860product no amount of investor financing is going to make it successful you've just increased your
00:16:45.300your risk portfolio more so that's a really really great point actually but that's a really
00:16:52.640interesting context to put this in uh i i think that probably this is just personal opinion
00:16:58.980we have a lot of heated discussion about this truth and reconciliation thing which in my mind
00:17:05.160amounts to many canadians feeling like we couldn't do enough no matter what we did and the
00:17:12.280other half of canadians saying what the hell are we doing here this is going to cost on and on
00:17:17.880forever somewhere in the middle we need to find truth and reconciliation for canadians and
00:17:23.560indigenous people together what do we do to get closer to that place do you think
00:17:28.040well i think it starts with the truth and i think this is where the conversation gets a lot more
00:17:37.000uncomfortable for uh the general the way that it's been held for years upon years which is that
00:17:45.080even a lot of the history around the residential schools has been put in a manner i mean to the
00:17:54.120the point where even I think the they recognized it formally as a genocidal program. But the data
00:18:02.760doesn't back that up at all. There was 3200 deaths recorded in the residential school program
00:18:11.080against 150,000 people that went there. There was some shoddy data because obviously we're talking
00:18:18.120about the early 20th century here. So the bookkeeping at that time isn't great. But of
00:18:23.320the recorded deaths that there were 50 of them came from tuberculosis which was the uh which was
00:18:31.480the call as well and so by no means would i say that there isn't uh outliers and scenarios in
00:18:39.160things that probably happened on these reserves there's definitely isolated cases i think you
00:18:43.400could point to where um something terrible happened but when the entire premise that we've built the
00:18:51.320trc portfolio off of and that we're spending all of these things for is built off of the
00:18:59.420false presumption that this was a genocidal program uh then because because that's a very
00:19:07.320heavy label that you're now trying that is a very you know what it's interesting that you say that
00:19:11.780because this is the moment where you and i might depart on this conversation i hope not but we
00:19:17.280might find separate roots on this one, and I'll tell you why. I believe personally that, yes,
00:19:23.120we were culturally genocidal through those schools. We wanted these people with a different culture0.98
00:19:30.460to follow the rule of law. We wanted them to be educated in our way. We wanted them to follow
00:19:37.100our Lord and Savior. That was easier at the time, and anybody denying that would be wrong.
00:19:44.120what they did in a physical nature i think remains to be seen uh and now 323 million dollars is going
00:19:51.900to be spent a federal commitment to do a burial scan to make sure that you know we understand
00:19:57.880where the bodies are buried that were dislocated from their families and from their original
00:20:03.960communities but as you point out this is one of those divisive moments where canadians just are
00:20:13.020on one side or the other. I happen to believe somewhere in the middle, as I often sit on the
00:20:19.500fence and think, yeah, you know what, Liam? I do think that we did nasty things in regard to
00:20:27.780stripping a culture away from people that were there first. Did we do such abusive, horrible,
00:20:35.260genocidal things? I would hate to think so. Will we find out more? I hope so, because at the moment,
00:20:43.020I think that if there's any question one way or the other, more has to be done to find out.
00:20:50.140$323 million seems like an awful lot to spend.
00:20:54.280Meanwhile, 33, how many churches have been destroyed?
00:21:00.020It was, yeah, it was something in the 30s immediately afterwards.
00:21:04.040But over the years, as these narratives have gone on, it's well over 100 across Canada now.
00:21:10.840And so, obviously, something needs to be reconciled here still.
00:21:16.760And it can't be a matter, in my opinion, we can't leave it out there as a matter of opinion.
00:21:22.340What needs to happen now is something factual.
00:21:25.500A discovery needs to be factual and accepted by everybody.
00:21:30.540But between here and there, this seems to be the most divisive thing.
00:21:34.160And you're right, it is fuel on the fire for what this costs Canadians long term.
00:21:39.980Yeah. And I think, too, that that goes to if that's the narrative that, you know, these systems were set up for the express purpose of committing these atrocities, then I don't know how you could ever reconcile those.
00:21:56.960Like if that's the narrative you are, if that's the narrative you're pushing, then there is no unity to be had. And so I don't see on our current path when you look at the public landscape, how we could ever sit there and not expect it to be divisive.
00:22:14.100And so that's a great point. Yeah. And so the longer that if if we accept these, then sure, go ahead and make that case if you want. But then I don't think you can make that case and then also be confused at the fact that it's causing social cohesion issues. It's like, no, I this is the one this is the one best money spent, I think, because of how divisive it is.
00:22:39.240you know like you Liam I'm sure if you found out or we were we had definitively understood
00:22:45.000that that's what was taking place at these schools I would feel horrible shame as a Canadian
00:22:51.680for our history in doing that I'm sure you would as well I would hope that we would never replicate
00:22:57.240that and to commemorate that in the right way I think would be really appropriate but we need to
00:23:04.860get there and this has been a long time now and yeah and and even to the say the the cultural
00:23:12.060genocide narrative it's one of those things where again the same issue occurs where to what i was
00:23:18.780pointing to earlier when okay if we have these different systems and these different ways of
00:23:24.680living in terms of law economics and so on then we can't compare the outcomes and say like if they
00:23:33.100want to live that way that's fine i have no issue it's not up to me to determine how many people
00:23:38.540should live but if you choose to not live in accordance with those principles that create
00:23:46.940these results then we don't get to use those results as evidence that there's unfair treatment
00:23:53.420because we're saying these people are making their own choice to live by different principles
00:24:00.220in different values yeah which is fine but then you can't hold it against this system if they if
00:24:07.220they say they don't want that i i would agree with you by the way looking back on history
00:24:13.940i don't think we made good decisions about what to do at that time because we were not equipped
00:24:20.660obviously to do that we've come a long way in society uh to a place where we would not culturally
00:24:27.780try to alter your existence you know welcoming into a community is different than what occurred
00:24:35.360i am most sure of that having said that to what degree and to what end we take this i think
00:24:44.340remains to be seen it is in fact we started doing this episode and i'm like oh do i want to talk
00:24:50.460about the residential schools but we we can't deny that it is the catalyst for most of the discussion
00:24:56.660most of the turmoil and certainly some of the uh act out and violence that we've seen
00:25:04.060over the last 10 years and i i don't know where we get to with this 200 billion dollars in
00:25:10.460and a lot of money every year going toward this program um i'm hoping that we make strides that
00:25:17.880we see more evidence of in the coming years or i think this will get revisited by another government
00:25:24.240in another day well and even to your point like you know i made i made a point that under the
00:25:29.600current narratives there can be no reconciliation you can't expect that if these are the prevailing
00:25:34.640narratives but then also too on the truth side if the social consequences for even asking questions
00:25:43.480one way or another on this topic come with such punitive uh moral condemnations then we can't ever
00:25:53.980expect the truth either because people won't be able to have a conversation. They won't be able
00:25:59.500to get to the truth. They won't be able to ask the questions that then bring forward the proper
00:26:04.200answers. And that's where we're at right now is because so I don't think we can expect either of
00:26:09.560these things until we have a cultural shift towards how we approach this approach this topic in
00:26:16.180general? Liam, we made it through. You know, I should say at this point that more than anything,
00:26:24.000what I'd like to see is our Indigenous communities do amazing things, which they
00:26:31.200tend to do. We have amazing artists, amazing, you know, business minds, politicians.
00:26:37.500to the indigenous community is worth supporting in any way we can but it shouldn't be at the
00:26:46.940expense of condemnation at the expense of not having an opinion so i do appreciate that we
00:26:53.280had a good discussion about this look we could do it without yelling at each other huh
00:26:56.560people should be able to i think so thanks liam of course thanks mike