Valuetainment - October 07, 2026


“I’m Not Trying To Start A Witch Hunt” – Jacob Coxon On AI Espionage Concerns

Hosted by
Patrick Bet-David
Mentioned
Mark Chen Brad Lightcap Trump Jacob Dario Simo
＂He Wanted To Be A Red Sox＂ - Yankees Rookie Becomes Boston’s Nightmare ＂China Stealing America's AI Secrets＂ - OpenAI Fired 3 Safety Researchers

Episode Stats


Length

12 minutes

Words per minute

200.37

Word count

2,478

Sentence count

232

Harmful content

Toxicity

3

sentences flagged

Hate speech

19

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.040 Okay, when I sell my business, I want the best tax and investment advice.
00:00:04.800 I want to help my kids, and I want to give back to the community.
00:00:07.940 Ooh, then it's the vacation of a lifetime.
00:00:12.200 I wonder if my out-of-office has a forever setting.
00:00:15.740 An IG Private Wealth Advisor creates the clarity you need
00:00:19.060 with plans that harmonize your business, your family, and your dreams.
00:00:23.480 Get financial advice that puts you at the center.
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00:00:30.000 I wonder if it's fear porn where they're just using to scare a regular person watching this.
00:00:35.480 I wrote it down.
00:00:36.260 I said, I think this is how I see it.
00:00:37.420 I just kind of want to share with you on how I see the fear porn side of this.
00:00:40.660 So one part of the fear porn is, hey, this is so scary.
00:00:44.580 AI is going to take over the world.
00:00:45.860 We need the government to control.
00:00:47.620 Okay, that's one.
00:00:49.120 People are using this because they want control.
00:00:51.120 They want the government to control.
00:00:51.980 Number two, hey, this is so big and powerful, and we need government control because I'm anthropic and open AI.
00:00:59.740 I'm eliminating my other companies to come and compete with me.
00:01:02.840 So the barrier to entry becomes more difficult and I get to control.
00:01:06.480 So the motive there becomes eliminating future competition.
00:01:10.020 Pretty good move if you're thinking that way, right?
00:01:11.980 Definitely.
00:01:12.360 The third level of fear porn is, well, let me tell you, this thing is so powerful because we're about to go public.
00:01:20.740 As big as we thought this was, this is so much more powerful than us.
00:01:24.460 You may want to invest some of your money in there because when we go public, you may 10x, 20x, 30x your money.
00:01:28.720 Yeah. So the public IPO goes just massive. Right. So those are three elements of the fear porn that I see.
00:01:33.880 Then the other one is maybe it is as scary as you say it is. The other one is if we don't build it, China builds it. 0.78
00:01:39.940 You know, and last but not least, if we all stop, how can somebody hold an independent person or China to build this?
00:01:46.960 So of those, if you can one by one by one address, which one you think it is?
00:01:51.220 Yeah. So to go to the original fear porn stuff, especially about the regulation control or Anthropic hyping up their product, I think part of the reason my tweet went so viral is many people at Anthropic said the same thing, but they didn't just quit.
00:02:08.560 You know, they stayed there. So it's easier to be like, OK, he's staying at the company. He's saying this stuff, but he's just hyping the product.
00:02:16.080 I left in a personal capacity because I am scared.
00:02:19.880 So from my perspective, I have nothing to gain by hyping up Anthropic.
00:02:25.340 That's not a, I'm not trying to hype them up or get them like special criteria. 0.99
00:02:29.960 I think what they're doing is dangerous.
00:02:31.340 I think it's reckless.
00:02:32.420 I think they should be curtailed.
00:02:33.700 And I left to say that.
00:02:35.440 So that's to address the like regulatory capture stuff.
00:02:37.640 Also later we could go into why I don't think it's actually like,
00:02:40.640 it doesn't actually make sense to stoke up this level of fear.
00:02:42.940 I think it's going to hurt their IPO.
00:02:44.060 So I think it's going to hurt their ability to stay in control.
00:02:46.760 We can talk about that later.
00:02:47.840 Okay.
00:02:49.820 What was the other point?
00:02:50.680 China, yeah.
00:02:52.580 Yeah, the China point is difficult.
00:02:54.800 But I think, again, if you appreciate that the tech is scary
00:02:57.740 and it's going to feel scary for the people building it,
00:03:00.420 I think China will also realize that.
00:03:03.400 The people building the technology in China will see how destabilizing it is.
00:03:06.660 And I just don't think that that regime wants to create a destabilizing technology
00:03:10.620 that could threaten their own power.
00:03:11.840 I think actually our incentives are aligned.
00:03:14.720 Like we're more similar to China in this respect.
00:03:18.220 So it should be quite easy to cooperate.
00:03:20.500 Well, if you look at the advancement, the separation between us and China, 0.95
00:03:24.100 one could say the motivation, the motivation, hang on one second,
00:03:30.340 I'm going to show you one data.
00:03:31.780 Yeah.
00:03:34.740 So motivation for China could be U.S. has such a massive lead in AI,
00:03:39.160 we need them to slow down so we can catch up.
00:03:40.920 Yeah. There's no way in the world that China is going to sit there and say, oh, yeah, yeah, President Trump for sure.
00:03:46.300 We're going to shut it down and we're not going to work on it.
00:03:48.660 Yeah. OK, great. Can we come and look at your place to make sure you are actually keeping your promises?
00:03:54.120 No, no. Just take our word for it. We are not working on superintelligence.
00:03:57.840 Yeah. Do you believe China is not going to work on superintelligence and they're going to listen to us?
00:04:01.560 It depends on the nature of a deal. Right now, if we just stopped, they would try and catch up.
00:04:06.360 But I think one really important thing people don't realize is China already has spies at OpenAI, at Anthropic.
00:04:14.280 China has the ability to hack at any time.
00:04:16.680 If we pull ahead, that doesn't give us a big lead. 0.88
00:04:19.740 They can just step in and steal our progress at any time, catch up the lead.
00:04:24.300 How certain are you to have spies already there?
00:04:26.800 90 percent, yeah.
00:04:27.940 It's almost certain that they have spies.
00:04:30.060 Do people talk about that at OpenAI?
00:04:31.660 Yeah, they do.
00:04:32.300 People have spoken about this.
00:04:33.080 Is it kind of like jokingly, hey, we probably have some Chinese spies here?
00:04:35.320 Yeah, it's like a joking thing because you don't want to take it seriously, but then it is a serious thing.
00:04:38.960 There must be spies.
00:04:39.840 Have you met people that you think they could be?
00:04:42.380 No.
00:04:42.800 I think obviously I don't want to stereotype people based on are they Chinese national?
00:04:47.600 For sure, yeah.
00:04:48.420 So I wouldn't say any specific person, but there must be spies.
00:04:52.040 There's no background check, like serious background check for this sort of stuff.
00:04:54.920 Yeah, it's not like a – this is another reason why nationalization is so important.
00:04:58.780 You can start properly vetting and background checking.
00:05:00.680 So it's like, I don't think SpaceX can hire Chinese nationals, but these AI companies can hire foreign nationals like me, which is pretty surprising.
00:05:10.200 Why is that? What's the difference? Because SpaceX has some regulatory...
00:05:13.040 Yeah, there's a regulation. Yeah, so it can't.
00:05:14.800 So they cannot recruit Chinese nationals, but OpenAI and Anthropocan. 0.89
00:05:18.140 Yes.
00:05:18.620 So do you think one step could be to not allow Chinese nationals to work for Anthropocan OpenAI? 0.98
00:05:23.780 It's a bit sad because they're my friends, but I think that will happen. I think that will probably happen. 1.00
00:05:27.580 Are you saying will or do you think that's the right move?
00:05:29.700 I think both.
00:05:30.680 Okay, so it's uncomfortable for you to say it, and I plot that.
00:05:33.560 I respect that, but you at least, that shows me there is integrity in your belief system
00:05:40.940 that your friends are going to see this.
00:05:42.580 They're going to say, hey, Jacob, what are you saying?
00:05:43.800 We're friends.
00:05:44.740 But you think, okay, so you think if we continue to China almost, they're like, yeah, continue
00:05:52.620 because we have access to everything you're doing anyways.
00:05:55.140 Yeah.
00:05:55.520 So if we continue, they're going to have access to it. 0.92
00:05:57.660 If we don't continue, China's going to create it themselves. 0.89
00:05:59.640 So either way, China is eventually going to have access to it. 0.97
00:06:02.100 I think so, unless, again, there's some sort of deal.
00:06:04.340 One thing is a lot of their progress right now, not all of it, but a substantial part of it, is distillation, which is sort of stealing the data.
00:06:14.900 So they use Claude, they log in, they ask it questions, and they use the answers to train Chinese models.
00:06:20.560 So right now, a lot of their speed is kind of copying the U.S. and stealing from the U.S. 0.88
00:06:25.600 So also if we slow down, it will probably slow down China quite a bit too 0.90
00:06:29.620 because currently a lot of their progress is from essentially copying or stealing U.S. work. 0.92
00:06:35.840 Not all of it.
00:06:36.480 They will still catch up and make progress, but there is a component.
00:06:39.120 So they will also slow down if the U.S. slows down.
00:06:42.860 Who else is another player out there that people worry about?
00:06:45.520 It seems like it's mainly them to maybe U.K. a little bit, right?
00:06:48.140 Not the U.K. at all, sadly.
00:06:49.560 That's why I'm in the U.S.
00:06:50.700 It's very sad, but the U.K. just hasn't.
00:06:52.140 Who would you put third?
00:06:55.020 I'm actually not sure who's got the data center to build that right now.
00:06:58.020 U.S. and China are just so far ahead that no one is going to catch up right now.
00:07:03.320 Okay, so go a little bit deeper into the Chinese spy part.
00:07:08.140 You said it is a discussion that people have in those organizations.
00:07:11.280 So what would that look like?
00:07:13.300 If the average person wants to know, all right, what would that look like
00:07:15.460 on how they pass their messages or information over to them?
00:07:19.000 Can you do me a favor and can you type in who are the highest ranking executives
00:07:24.620 at OpenAI or Anthropic that are Chinese nationals?
00:07:31.680 Highest-ranking executives at OpenAI or Anthropic that are Chinese nationals?
00:07:38.420 Have you looked at the inventory to see how many of them are Chinese nationals?
00:07:41.900 I don't think there are many that are that high up that are Chinese nationals.
00:07:45.780 Again, I really, I'm like, this does make me sad.
00:07:48.140 I'm not trying to, like, start a witch hunt.
00:07:49.780 I'm just saying objectively there are probably spies, and I think that, yeah.
00:07:53.220 Okay, so let's go over this.
00:07:54.420 So Chief Research Officer at OpenAI, Mark Chen. 0.93
00:07:58.080 Yeah, he's not a Chinese national. 0.97
00:07:59.400 He's not a Chinese national. 0.71
00:08:00.220 You know who he is.
00:08:01.900 It says Chinese-born.
00:08:03.360 He's Asian-American, yeah.
00:08:06.340 But he was born in China.
00:08:08.420 Yeah.
00:08:08.880 I don't think Mark Chen is a Chinese spy.
00:08:11.220 Okay.
00:08:11.560 All right.
00:08:12.360 And you met him.
00:08:13.920 Yeah, I've met him a few times.
00:08:15.220 Okay.
00:08:16.040 So Fiji, Simo.
00:08:18.720 I don't think he's a Chinese spy either, no.
00:08:20.720 Brad Lightcap, CEO of Nopanko.
00:08:22.500 So Dario, we know that.
00:08:24.420 No, I think we are clear on these guys, yep.
00:08:26.120 You are clear on all these names.
00:08:27.340 Yeah, these guys.
00:08:28.020 Who are the highest rank?
00:08:28.960 Are there any high-ranking people that could be Chinese nationals, or you don't know any names?
00:08:32.340 You know, again, I really don't want to call out names.
00:08:34.600 I haven't thought about that detail.
00:08:36.280 I'm not asking you to give names.
00:08:37.820 I want to ask you, forget about giving names.
00:08:39.680 I'll find out.
00:08:40.600 What I'm trying to find out from you is because the audience is going to go do their own research, right? 0.68
00:08:44.280 So I think, yeah, almost all the Chinese nationals are, like, employees, so not, like, executives, not high-level managers. 0.61
00:08:51.100 They will be, like, employees doing coding, doing engineering, doing research.
00:08:55.140 Yeah.
00:08:56.980 Yeah, if we pull up – I went to an insurance company once in Dallas,
00:09:00.700 and I went on their seventh floor.
00:09:02.760 The seventh floor was all the engineers that they had.
00:09:05.000 Yeah.
00:09:05.500 If I told you 98% was Indian, I never met anybody that wasn't Indian.
00:09:10.160 Everybody was Indian.
00:09:10.920 And they had a lot of their guys that came from – what is that institute from India?
00:09:14.640 IIT Institute, which IIT Institute is like a – some people even say it's better than MIT Institute.
00:09:20.020 So you saw that.
00:09:20.960 And one could say, okay, they're in here in the business.
00:09:23.700 But when you're saying Chinese nationals,
00:09:26.260 India doesn't necessarily have the same motive that China has.
00:09:30.420 One in America wouldn't say China's an enemy, you know, India's an enemy,
00:09:33.300 as much as they would say China's the enemy, right?
00:09:35.540 So if you're saying they already have Chinese nationals in there,
00:09:39.700 that's probably a pretty big concern there. 0.99
00:09:42.760 Okay, when I sell my business, I want the best tax and investment advice.
00:09:47.400 I want to help my kids, and I want to give back to the community.
00:09:50.540 Ooh, then it's the vacation of a lifetime.
00:09:54.920 I wonder if my out-of-office has a forever setter.
00:09:58.340 An IG Private Wealth advisor creates the clarity you need
00:10:01.660 with plans that harmonize your business, your family, and your dreams.
00:10:06.100 Get financial advice that puts you at the center.
00:10:09.060 Find your advisor at igprivatewealth.com.
00:10:13.060 And I think what it is, is it's representative.
00:10:16.420 Remember I said they're not taking this seriously?
00:10:19.840 It's like it's a normal business.
00:10:21.760 Like, yeah, there's an absolute minimum background checks for employees seem important.
00:10:27.060 I think they will come.
00:10:28.180 But if they're not vetting for something that could be a super weapon technology, it's just crazy.
00:10:33.080 It's like cowboy stuff.
00:10:34.680 I'm surprised it's happening right under the noses of the government. 0.99
00:10:37.200 It's ridiculous. 0.92
00:10:38.960 By the way, that's a very valid point. 0.88
00:10:41.180 Who else do you think they need to be vetting and not allowing to work at companies like that?
00:10:45.760 So I don't know the exact details.
00:10:46.960 But, you know, plausibly, even I'm a foreign national.
00:10:49.840 So I'm from the UK.
00:10:51.340 I think it's important.
00:10:52.440 A lot of the researchers come from the UK.
00:10:54.820 I do think careful background checks are necessary.
00:10:58.180 What are you looking for?
00:10:59.300 In particular, I guess, you know, no compromise.
00:11:02.000 Whatever the current, like, clearance background checks are,
00:11:05.520 you should probably need that to work on core AI systems,
00:11:08.220 and I think that will happen.
00:11:10.260 But, I mean, even if you're doing that, what am I looking for?
00:11:12.220 What would I find anyways?
00:11:13.240 Nowadays, people are professionals that are hiding whatever they did in the past.
00:11:16.380 Yeah, I know.
00:11:16.760 It's not even for me to be able to find everything about that
00:11:19.760 individual yeah it's so i'm not again i'm not an expert on like the details what i think is like
00:11:25.740 they need to take it more seriously okay at a bare minimum yeah fair enough so that that part
00:11:31.760 that part is uh made clear we got that handmade in portugal where craftsmanship is a way of life
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