Western Standard - August 01, 2026


Are Indian students MISUSING Canada’s asylum system to stay？


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Length

43 minutes

Words per minute

175.5

Word count

7,594

Sentence count

412

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Toxicity

10

sentences flagged

Hate speech

62

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 A student who's come to Canada, has studied for four years, worked for another one, two years,
00:00:06.700 and now he doesn't have a job, he doesn't get a post-study work visa, and he needs to go back to India.
00:00:14.680 What does he do? He just goes and applies for asylum.
00:00:18.120 Because you give him asylum. 0.81
00:00:19.580 The new rules are very good.
00:00:20.880 The new rule says you can only apply for asylum in the first year that you come in.
00:00:25.260 Which is a very good rule. 1.00
00:00:26.380 Because if you really think India is a bad place when you came here, you should have
00:00:31.020 applied for asylum the moment you came in, not when your visa is rejected that you apply for asylum.
00:00:45.740 Hi Commissioner, thank you for joining the Western Standard.
00:00:48.860 Canada and India have a deep relationship built on trade, education, security interests and
00:00:54.540 extensive personal connections between the peoples.
00:00:58.040 But that relationship has also experienced extraordinary diplomatic and national security
00:01:01.780 tensions in recent years.
00:01:03.860 I would like to discuss where relations stand today and what has changed under Prime Minister
00:01:07.640 Mark Carney and how both governments intend to address the difficult issues that remain.
00:01:13.540 So specifically, given now that we have Mark Carney in this period, we've seen diplomatic
00:01:20.300 engagement restored, renewed emphasis on trade and cooperation.
00:01:25.680 For you guys on the Indian side, what has changed, if anything at all?
00:01:30.180 Well, first of all, we share so many things, like you said before.
00:01:35.520 But most important, what we share are the values, democracy, human rights, rule of law,
00:01:41.140 freedom of press, market economy.
00:01:43.360 I mean, apart from the many things, these are core values that we share.
00:01:47.940 And that is important because in today's world where you are seeing geopolitics across the
00:01:51.780 world, what we need is to have cooperation between countries which share the same values.
00:01:57.960 Not countries which have an opaque system or a country which is ruled by a single man
00:02:02.480 making all the decisions or a country.
00:02:05.220 You have to have relations between countries like Prime Minister Carney said in Davos,
00:02:10.620 the middle powers, the powers which are democratic countries, which are the bulk work of the
00:02:15.700 world which is holding the world together they need to work together to chart out the new world
00:02:20.900 order that is going to come and in that India and Canada share many values together so we were very
00:02:26.980 disappointed when two countries which share so many together we share everything from like I
00:02:31.940 told you democracy human rights rule of law freedom of press market economy all of this
00:02:37.220 to a large diaspora large people to people connections culture everything that we share
00:02:43.940 huge business transactions, people working across all sectors, students, academics, research,
00:02:51.140 all of this together. And so we were disappointed when things happened in the manner that they did
00:02:57.060 two years back. But since Prime Minister Carney has come in, and since he invited my Prime Minister
00:03:03.940 to Kananiscus for the G7 meeting in June last year, things have been an up track. We have managed to
00:03:12.980 to do a lot of things in the last 10 months since I have taken over.
00:03:17.660 I took over in September of last year, end of September last year.
00:03:22.400 And since then, things have really happened very fast.
00:03:25.660 We've had multiple meetings between both sides, a lot of ministerial meetings.
00:03:30.260 The prime ministers have met more than four or five times.
00:03:33.260 The foreign ministers have met more than 10, 12 times.
00:03:36.820 Minister of Commerce and Industry, Minister of NRCan, Natural Resources, Power, Energy, you name it.
00:03:45.340 International trade, all the ministers have met.
00:03:48.120 All the bilateral mechanisms have been activated in the sense all the joint working groups on consular issues,
00:03:54.480 on education issues, on everything else have been activated.
00:03:58.180 And more important, the two prime ministers have agreed to work towards a comprehensive economic partnership agreement
00:04:04.360 for which the negotiations have started.
00:04:07.060 We have reached quite a high stage in our negotiations
00:04:09.380 and we are hoping to complete it by the end of this year.
00:04:13.200 So, in a sense, we are in a much better place than we were a few years ago.
00:04:18.680 And all this I would give to the leadership of both Prime Minister Carney
00:04:23.080 and my Prime Minister, who have both led from the front
00:04:25.880 in letting the relationship go back to what it should naturally be,
00:04:29.520 a relationship between friends and countries with similar values.
00:04:34.140 You made reference, and before we get into the cooperation agreement that you mentioned,
00:04:37.880 you made reference to the Carney's Davos speech, which as well mentions this new world order
00:04:42.960 and change of biblical calculations from Canada.
00:04:47.380 In India's view, what is the new world order?
00:04:50.420 We haven't still got a new world order.
00:04:52.440 We want a world order where there is fairness and equity in the way countries treat each other.
00:04:58.620 We don't want a world order where the rich and the strong do what they want.
00:05:03.380 the weak suffer. This has been happening for a long time. We want a world order where people
00:05:08.420 are given their rightful place in the world and that world order can be bought into place. The
00:05:13.700 UN tried to do it, the UN has not worked together. The world order that came up after the second world 0.91
00:05:20.100 war was skewed in terms of the fact that it represented a certain section of the world
00:05:25.460 which had won the second world war. But things have changed since 1945 when the new world order
00:05:30.900 came in the world order has changed country there are that time there were 51 countries in the world
00:05:36.500 today there are 196 countries in the world 140 more countries there were some countries at that
00:05:42.340 time who were powerful countries today power has been distributed there are economically strong
00:05:46.900 countries like mine like china has risen after that brazil is there argentina south africa nigeria
00:05:56.100 you name it indonesia there are countries across the world which have grown the middle east has
00:06:00.100 become more powerful today. They are all rich countries. So power has distributed across the
00:06:05.460 world. Countries are growing up and are more aspirational trying to do more. Africa is a new
00:06:10.420 growth area in the world. So all these countries together want a world order which is fair and
00:06:15.780 equitable and which is just to all parties. And so we don't know what the world order will be,
00:06:21.300 but we would like to work with all interested countries to fashion a world order which is fair
00:06:26.580 and just to everybody.
00:06:28.360 So on the cooperation agreement,
00:06:30.440 the stated ambition from Prime Minister Mark Carney
00:06:32.540 has been to double two-way trade
00:06:35.300 to $70 billion by 2030.
00:06:38.080 It's very ambitious.
00:06:39.480 How realistic is that target?
00:06:41.280 And what's the biggest obstacle?
00:06:42.300 If you break it down, numbers-wise,
00:06:45.380 it is realistic.
00:06:46.900 It is not unrealistic.
00:06:49.340 But it will take a lot of efforts.
00:06:52.260 And we both of us are working together.
00:06:53.880 The first step is to have a comprehensive
00:06:55.560 Economic Partnership Agreement, to remove all the barriers to bilateral trade. So that the less
00:07:01.560 barriers you have, more people can trade with each other. And so that's the first step. The
00:07:06.440 second step is to make sure that both countries have the enough capacity to sell and buy from
00:07:10.740 each other. For example, Canada has a lot of capacity to sell a lot of things across the world,
00:07:16.620 but it doesn't have the logistics and the infrastructure to be able to take those things
00:07:21.680 out properly. So that's what Prime Minister Khan is putting in place. And that's what we are trying
00:07:26.880 to put in place along with Canada to make sure that the strength of both countries are utilized
00:07:32.080 to maximize the bilateral opportunity between both sides. And so we are working together on
00:07:38.760 many fronts. We have opened up new fronts, which is defense has become a new area of cooperation,
00:07:45.460 critical minerals, AI, you name it.
00:07:48.400 On every aspect, we are working forward now.
00:07:51.720 Canada is trying to diversify its relationship away from the United States
00:07:54.940 as there is a number of tariffs and trade disputes between the two countries.
00:07:59.880 Europe, China, and India are all in the upper echelon of new opportunities to expand trade.
00:08:07.420 What can India offer in terms of long-term economics that maybe other markets cannot?
00:08:13.600 Well, there are two things. One is we are now almost the fifth largest economy in the world, soon to be the third largest.
00:08:21.600 The calculation is by the next five years will be the third largest economy in the world.
00:08:26.600 If you look around the world, Canada shares values with very few countries across the world.
00:08:32.600 You have Europe, like you said, but Europe is already saturated. Europe is also looking for market sales fare.
00:08:38.600 U.S. is its next-door neighbor.
00:08:42.380 China does not share the same values with Canada as we do.
00:08:46.140 India is the only large economy with which Canada can have a very close relationship.
00:08:51.140 When you say, what can we do?
00:08:52.220 We can do everything.
00:08:53.700 Whatever resources you have, whatever talent pool you have, whatever industry you have,
00:08:59.700 we are willing to partner with everything and we will do everything.
00:09:03.040 We want more oil and gas.
00:09:04.780 Since the problem at the Middle East, for us, Canada has become a new area from where we want to do more oil and gas.
00:09:11.960 And we can do easily with Canada.
00:09:13.560 If you look at the U.S., at one time, we used to have zero imports from U.S. of energy.
00:09:19.420 Today, more than 50% of our LNG capacity and LPG capacity comes from the U.S.
00:09:25.600 We are getting crude from the U.S.
00:09:27.380 Canada is an energy superpower.
00:09:29.640 We need to buy more from Canada.
00:09:31.280 But Canada needs to put its situation together to be able to sell to all of us.
00:09:36.660 What does that mean? Does it mean Canada needs more pipelines and more export capacity?
00:09:40.500 Yes.
00:09:41.280 So you endorse that viewpoint coming especially from out west in Canada
00:09:47.600 that the Pacific pipeline is in the national interest, is in the best interest of the India-Canada relationship as well?
00:09:53.780 Not India, just for Canada.
00:09:55.800 India-Canada, of course, but Canada itself is an energy.
00:09:59.460 I will give you an example.
00:10:00.420 Canada has more than 250 years of energy under the ground.
00:10:05.980 And the way the world is moving, we will need this kind of energy for the only next 30, 40, 50 years.
00:10:11.660 After that, energy profile will change.
00:10:14.360 People will not be using fossil fuels the way you are using now with hydrogen coming up, with other new things coming up.
00:10:24.260 Need of oil and gas will go down in the future.
00:10:27.820 So Canada only has 40 years to take out 250 years of oil and gas from under its field.
00:10:35.780 Otherwise, it's a wastage resource.
00:10:38.180 And so for Canada's benefit and for the global benefit, Canada needs to do more to be able to sell its resources.
00:10:45.340 And we are willing to partner with Canada on that.
00:10:48.520 I think what makes the relationship between the countries special is a relationship between peoples.
00:10:53.620 And we discussed that briefly.
00:10:55.080 I mean, there are millions of people in Canada who are either citizens of India or descendants of Indian citizens who have cultural origins and ties to the country, as well as many Indian students, temporary residents.
00:11:08.920 How important is the diaspora to the bilateral relationship between the two countries, in your view?
00:11:13.840 It's always important when you have such a huge, like my prime minister calls it, living bridge between both sides.
00:11:20.040 This is a living bridge between India and Canada.
00:11:22.680 We have more than 3 million people of Indian origin in Canada,
00:11:27.320 almost 2 million Indo-Canadians and about 1 million Indian citizens
00:11:31.140 who are active in this country.
00:11:33.200 We have a large number of students.
00:11:35.080 We have a large number of professionals who are working in this country.
00:11:38.500 So there is more than 3 million.
00:11:40.420 And given the population of Canada, that's a big number.
00:11:43.640 And these are people who have helped build up Canada.
00:11:46.840 And they have a strong relation back home.
00:11:49.220 They bring together trade, business, culture, films, activity, you name it, whatever you're talking about.
00:11:56.860 All activities, the diaspora becomes the most important binding factor between both countries.
00:12:02.400 And so we have been working together with Canada to make sure that the diaspora is taken care of,
00:12:08.500 that it's in a good state and that it can benefit both India and Canada together.
00:12:12.700 There are right now a significant number of students who are from India and Canada,
00:12:20.520 international students specifically, many of which of them are hoping to stay in Canada
00:12:25.340 beyond their mandate for study, perhaps working, taking up residency, is a very common aspiration.
00:12:31.580 And then we had protests in Alberta just yesterday and the day before when Premier Daniel Smith
00:12:37.820 and Marconi had a press conference there and students were demanding that the local provincial
00:12:43.320 government in Alberta would extend their stay and allow them to stay. Essentially, they're vying not
00:12:48.260 to be deported. And when media and others engage with these students and these protesters, many of
00:12:54.500 them, they speak about the fact that they don't want to go back to India because they don't want
00:12:59.040 to be in a situation where they feel like their human rights are potentially violated. What do
00:13:04.660 make of that notion do you think those students are right in their evaluation see the student
00:13:11.540 want to stay back the canadian immigration system has a lot of loopholes now i'm not going to go
00:13:17.700 into them but our student who's come to canada has studied for four years worked for another one two
00:13:26.660 years and now he doesn't have a job he's he doesn't get a a post study work visa and he needs to go
00:13:34.340 back to India, what does he do? He just goes and applies for asylum because you give him 0.95
00:13:39.460 asylum. The new rules are very good. The new rule says you can only apply for asylum in
00:13:44.380 the first year that you come in, which is a very good rule because if you really think 1.00
00:13:48.920 India is a bad place when you came here, you should have applied for asylum the moment
00:13:52.940 you came in, not when your visa is rejected that you apply for asylum. So that's one 1.00
00:13:58.720 part of it. The second part of it is, have the rules really changed? Has the post-study
00:14:04.760 work rules changed? No. Rules are the same. What it says is non-credits will not get
00:14:10.420 approval. And so, if the students have come into courses which are really non-credits,
00:14:18.200 they do not have a legal standing. And for us, we are very clear. We want people to come
00:14:23.260 into Canada, work and study legally. We do not want them to do illegal activities or
00:14:28.260 do something which is illegal. And so to that large extent, we are working with the Canadian
00:14:32.520 government to make sure of two things. One is that genuine legal students are taken care of,
00:14:39.940 that they are put into the system to the best of efforts that the Canadian government can do.
00:14:45.300 And that those who break the law or who are illegal or who create problems in Canada are
00:14:51.620 then punished or deported
00:14:54.260 or acted upon
00:14:56.760 as per the law of Canada.
00:14:58.860 Follow up. 1.00
00:14:59.980 Should there be a refugee 1.00
00:15:02.080 or a single refugee
00:15:03.420 accepted from India
00:15:04.640 given the situation in your country?
00:15:06.860 Should that be...
00:15:07.920 Canada has the same laws
00:15:11.120 for all countries.
00:15:11.920 They even have a refugee law
00:15:13.000 for people coming from the US.
00:15:15.140 So it's not as if
00:15:16.460 it's only made against India.
00:15:18.480 No.
00:15:18.960 If you look at it
00:15:19.800 from the Indian side,
00:15:20.740 we would not like a lot of countries in Europe have done it a lot of companies across the world
00:15:25.440 they describe which countries can apply for asylum status in many of them India is not there
00:15:33.360 so it doesn't create this legal loophole that you have today in Canada a legal loophole where
00:15:40.140 somebody who exhausts all possibility of staying back then uses the possibility of applying for
00:15:46.280 asylum and so if they're applying for asylum is because your system allows it then you'll have
00:15:52.740 to deal with it accordingly canada's immigration system is moving perhaps critics might say slowly
00:15:58.860 but it is moving generally generally speaking in a consistent direction and then directions towards
00:16:04.300 more restrictions and more restraint from the previous more open system that we had under the
00:16:10.060 through the government. So the question is, you know, ignoring the logistics on the Canadian side,
00:16:15.860 from a sentimental value on India, you talk about, you know, your shared values, democracy,
00:16:20.140 human rights, etc. Speaking even to your fellow countrymen, is it appropriate for an Indian
00:16:26.940 national to claim refugee Canada under the guise of their life being a threat by the Indian
00:16:32.120 government or by India at large? We are democratic countries. There are multiple views in our
00:16:38.320 country. If somebody wants to
00:16:40.400 use the legal
00:16:42.400 loopholes in Canada by
00:16:44.340 saying that they have 0.99
00:16:45.720 a threat in India, it is
00:16:47.940 an individual's decision. I don't 0.96
00:16:50.500 support it. It's a common decision though, right?
00:16:52.700 I mean, this is a population
00:16:54.400 There are not many people.
00:16:56.020 The same student, if he had a
00:16:58.240 visa to stay back or he had a job to stay
00:17:00.280 back, would not apply for asylum.
00:17:02.320 He did not apply for asylum. No, I understand
00:17:04.120 the fraudulent or the misleading claims 0.99
00:17:06.400 element that's very well documented we have and it's not just Indian nationals
00:17:10.360 it's national and the different countries regardless of the situation
00:17:14.320 happening in that country which is obviously a very important part of
00:17:16.900 understanding if this is a credible claim in the first place you know what
00:17:20.380 the country's going through war or if the country has a system government that
00:17:23.080 Canada really does identify as a threat to its citizens so the question is more
00:17:27.820 about the spirit is you know besides this obvious incentive of staying what
00:17:33.100 What's the deal? Is there any credibility to someone saying, I'm a refugee from India?
00:17:38.020 If you look at India, why would anybody come here unless they came here for a job?
00:17:45.420 Because in India, it's one of the fastest growing economies in the world.
00:17:49.900 One of the most scientifically aspiring people.
00:17:54.280 We've sent spaceships to the moon. We have a nuclear energy program.
00:17:59.060 We have everything that you can aspire for. 0.98
00:18:02.280 If you look at it normally, no country should send its people outside.
00:18:06.520 And India is not a place.
00:18:07.960 It is not a place where human rights are abused.
00:18:11.500 You just had the government try to work with the students
00:18:16.240 who let the government minister resign
00:18:20.000 because the students did not like the way he did things.
00:18:22.700 And a country where the media is so free,
00:18:25.400 where the people can protest what they want,
00:18:27.480 is not a country you put as a country where people flee.
00:18:31.160 This is not a country where there is a dictatorship there or there is people killing each other.
00:18:36.500 This is a free, open, democratic country.
00:18:39.380 But Canada has rules which has for everybody.
00:18:42.460 It has the same rules for Europe.
00:18:45.160 So, do the Canadians think that Europe is a bad place for people to flee here?
00:18:50.320 They have the same rules for U.S.
00:18:51.780 Do they think U.S. is a place where the administration is killing people and they will come here?
00:18:57.400 Canadians have the rule.
00:18:58.500 Now, the individual is misusing that rule. That's the individual's issue. It's not an issue I can put a stop to.
00:19:06.500 Canadians have got the rule because they come from a good place. They want to have a system where if there are people who feel persecuted can come to the country.
00:19:14.500 But they include everybody. They include the US, they include Europe, they include India, they include Japan, they include Australia, they include all the countries across the world.
00:19:24.260 And now if those countries misuse that facility,
00:19:28.260 then there's nothing I can do about it.
00:19:30.080 Another question on immigration, generally speaking.
00:19:31.980 You had this comment, I think it was on CBC,
00:19:34.300 and I watched your interview there,
00:19:36.180 and Parallel Politics with David Cochran.
00:19:38.340 You mentioned that India has what Canada needs,
00:19:42.720 and Canada should grow to a population of 100 million people
00:19:45.980 in order for its serious economic development to be achieved.
00:19:49.460 And then you said that essentially a critical viewpoint
00:19:52.280 can kind of almost suggest that you were maybe not suggesting that all 60 million people because
00:19:56.460 we're at 40 million today and all 60 million should come from India to help grow that population
00:20:01.080 but you know that Indian migration can be part of that can you just clarify the nature of the
00:20:05.380 comments that you made and specifically it was a very clear comment I was just quoting a lot of
00:20:10.260 people including Doug Ford including many others who say this country of Canada's size needs about
00:20:17.080 100 million people to run it, 40 million people is not enough. Your population is falling every day.
00:20:23.080 So, what I meant was, your country of this size needs about 100 million people. 0.98
00:20:27.080 So, which basically means you need immigration to fill up your jobs. And so, if you get legal 0.55
00:20:32.580 immigration in the right way, and where are the people in the world you can get
00:20:36.580 today? Where are the only populations in the world which are growing? Is South Asia,
00:20:41.080 Africa. Rest all Latin America, Europe, Central Asia, East Asia, everywhere 0.93
00:20:48.340 populations are falling. These are the only places. So I said these are the 0.88
00:20:51.640 places. So you should have immigration in such a way that you get the best talent
00:20:55.420 from these places and that's all. So if your immigration gets the bad
00:21:01.840 talent, you had a great system in the past. You had a system of points where 1.00
00:21:06.700 you if you ascribe to a certain amount of points you get immigration status what
00:21:11.500 you have done in the last ten years is just allow anybody to come in and we are 1.00
00:21:15.760 suffering because of that because a whole lot of Indians have come here and 1.00
00:21:19.600 are creating issues here Indians who should never have come here for a course 1.00
00:21:23.740 they've come here for courses like baking for beauty and aesthetics for 1.00
00:21:27.460 event management are these courses to be given so Canadian system knows that
00:21:32.200 there has been a lot of corruption within the system to get in people across
00:21:37.600 from across the world and so what we are saying is do your immigration in a manner in which it is
00:21:44.080 legal valid and allows for the best of talent to flow across both countries
00:21:52.720 i would say that there has been suggestion coming from yourself that canada's security
00:21:58.960 institutions and political institutions have been infiltrated or influenced by forces that
00:22:03.920 that are anti-India, do you hold that view still
00:22:07.320 or do you feel like that there's any bias
00:22:10.420 expressed against India by any Canadian institutions?
00:22:13.560 I said that it was in the past when I said it,
00:22:16.800 that in the past there was a feeling in India.
00:22:19.420 I didn't say that they have been infiltrated.
00:22:21.660 I said in India there's a perception
00:22:24.000 that Canadian institutions have been infiltrated.
00:22:27.080 By?
00:22:27.920 By people antithetical to the good India-Canada relationship.
00:22:32.160 which would be what kind of people?
00:22:34.100 It can be any kind of people.
00:22:35.740 It can be our neighbours who don't like us. 1.00
00:22:39.440 That's Pakistan? 1.00
00:22:40.660 Well, I don't want to name anything,
00:22:42.520 but it can be our neighbours who don't like us, 1.00
00:22:44.660 or it could be some of the Khalistani people 0.55
00:22:47.300 who want to create their own situation.
00:22:50.020 It can be anybody.
00:22:51.640 But the point is, there is a perception in India
00:22:54.220 that the Canadian establishment was there.
00:22:56.020 So I said that was a perception.
00:22:57.760 But since I have come, perception has completely changed.
00:23:01.880 So you should look closely at it.
00:23:03.580 What you read in the newspapers does selective coating.
00:23:08.200 I said this was a perception in India that Canadian establishment was there.
00:23:11.920 But since I have come here, I have realized that the Canadian establishment goes by the law.
00:23:17.720 And that the RCMP, look at the action that is being taken now.
00:23:20.860 Look at the recent arrests in the US and BC.
00:23:24.380 Look at the recent arrests in Peel Police in shutting down the illegal drug smuggling racket in Ontario.
00:23:31.460 There's a lot of action been taken. Both sides are cooperating very well.
00:23:35.520 Security agencies from India and security agencies from Canada are working together.
00:23:39.660 We are working together to make sure Canada is safe for Canadians and India is safe for Indians.
00:23:44.700 Because there are people on both sides who want to misuse the good relationship that we have for their own benefit.
00:23:51.580 And security forces are working closely.
00:23:54.160 And I have the greatest regard for the way RCMP functions, CCS functions, the security agencies function.
00:24:00.500 That was what I was trying to tell.
00:24:03.180 Unfortunately, journalists sometimes do not quote the right thing.
00:24:07.200 I say there was a perception in India that there was in the past like this.
00:24:10.660 But today, the perception is completely different.
00:24:13.520 Why is the perception very different today?
00:24:15.360 Because of the way the Canadian government has taken action.
00:24:18.220 I will give you an example.
00:24:19.320 In the past, we used to give lists of criminals who have left India and come to Canada.
00:24:25.200 but the response we used to get from the Canadian side
00:24:29.540 was that these are criminals who have done crime in India
00:24:32.820 but as long as they don't do crime in Canada
00:24:35.140 we have no problem
00:24:36.160 right
00:24:38.340 but now Canada has understood
00:24:41.640 that the same criminals
00:24:43.260 a leopard cannot change its spots
00:24:45.120 the same criminal who is doing crime in India 0.97
00:24:47.860 comes here and does the same crime 0.95
00:24:49.640 the same names that we gave 0.62
00:24:51.480 of who are criminals in India
00:24:52.780 are committing crimes
00:24:54.040 They're involved in the drug smuggling racket.
00:24:56.960 They're involved in the extortion racket.
00:24:58.580 They're involved in all of this.
00:25:00.800 And so today, Canada has woken up.
00:25:02.440 So in the last year, especially since Prime Minister Carney has come,
00:25:06.220 the Canadian government has been taking active action against many of these criminals.
00:25:10.520 And so that's the change.
00:25:12.440 One of the actions that's been taken by multiple levels of government
00:25:15.720 has been the recognition or designation of the Lawrence Bishnoi gang as a terrorist organization.
00:25:22.360 If Lawrence Bishnoi, if he's been in prison in India for years,
00:25:27.380 and of course authorities still allege he's directing murders, extortions, other crimes
00:25:31.940 through his smuggled cell phone network,
00:25:35.480 how can a prisoner of that profile continue to operate such a network from an Indian jail?
00:25:42.020 Yeah, this happens all over the world.
00:25:44.980 If you look at last year in the U.S.,
00:25:48.500 More than 25,000 criminals operated from inside jails.
00:25:51.920 25,000, not just one.
00:25:54.740 You see, they operate because there is a network which they create.
00:25:58.240 And then many people also use their names to start functioning abroad
00:26:02.180 because that is a name which fears them.
00:26:04.820 That is the reason we are worried. 0.94
00:26:06.220 Our concern is that how can Bishnoi operate here?
00:26:11.060 We got his brother back, Anmol Bishnoi, from the U.S. back to India to face charges.
00:26:16.240 The U.S. understood, U.S. extradited Anmol Bishnoi, the brother of Lawrence Bishnoi, back to India.
00:26:23.000 So we are as much concerned as anybody else as to how Bishnoi is able to operate from inside.
00:26:27.940 We have increased his security, we are taking all precautions, 0.73
00:26:30.980 but it still is a fact that there is a large part of the Bishnoi gang which is operating here,
00:26:35.600 which happens to many organizations nowadays.
00:26:38.140 Even if the head is away, the rest of them operate as if it's a corporation, organization.
00:26:43.780 You are seeing it across the world.
00:26:45.020 You saw what happened in Iran. Even if the heads were all killed, the whole system started or kept on operating. 0.80
00:26:51.480 You'd say, how is it that the head of the IRGC, the head of the country has been killed?
00:26:57.180 How is the country still operating? It happens everywhere across the world.
00:27:01.140 Criminal gangs and this is what countries work together.
00:27:04.420 So we've been telling Canada, US for a long time and with the US we have a very close cooperation on this,
00:27:10.240 that on organized crime we need to work together.
00:27:12.400 What happened two years back is a prime minister stood up and said we will stop cooperating with India on these things.
00:27:20.400 And so it fell apart. You need cooperation. Whenever things like this happen, you need to cooperate.
00:27:26.400 You need to inform each other. And now that the cooperation has started, you can see how the gangs are being held apart.
00:27:32.400 How people in the US, how many people were arrested in US? 24 people. How many? 3 people in BC.
00:27:39.400 BC. There's a new gang, which is the Dhanda Gang, which is caught in BC. So once you start
00:27:45.740 cooperating, you realize that both of you can work together to shut down organized crime and
00:27:50.880 terror networks. And this is what we are doing now. So you made reference to Justin Trudeau's
00:27:56.640 comments in the event, essentially, you know, was the killing of Hardeep Singh Najjar. The US
00:28:02.040 prosecutors alleged that Bishnoi directed that killing from prison, but the indictment does not
00:28:08.000 accused the Indian government of ordering and killing but Canadian authorities as you know and
00:28:12.740 Prime Minister Trudeau have previously alleged links between Indian officials and violent
00:28:17.900 activity in Canada. Does India categorically deny that any current or former government official
00:28:23.400 worked with directed or used the Bishon network for operations outside of India? I mean why would
00:28:28.940 you use a why would we use a network whose boss we have got in jail? I mean if if the boss wants
00:28:35.800 to stay in jail and be happy there, I can, I can. Nobody likes being in jail. So to say that there's
00:28:41.720 a link between the Indian government and Bishnoi gang is preposterous. I mean, how, how, I don't want
00:28:47.240 to use the word stupid, but how stupid can you be to think that a government sits down with a 1.00
00:28:51.800 criminal organization whose boss is in jail? It doesn't work like that. So Prime Minister Trudeau 1.00
00:28:56.160 was being stupidly said that comment, you think? I would not say anything like that, but people 0.99
00:29:00.380 who have intelligence can see.
00:29:03.360 Let me tell you, this country,
00:29:05.900 when did he make the comment?
00:29:07.240 He made it about two years, three years.
00:29:08.760 Where is the evidence that has come anywhere?
00:29:12.080 Nowhere.
00:29:13.480 Of linking India with any of this.
00:29:15.760 So why did he make those comments?
00:29:17.320 Well, you have to ask him.
00:29:18.980 Or maybe Katy Perry.
00:29:22.120 Okay.
00:29:24.220 So, in February,
00:29:26.100 Nikhail Gupta pleaded guilty to participating in a plot to assassinate Gurupatwant Singh Panun in New York.
00:29:34.640 The U.S. Justice Department said Gupta acted at the direction of an Indian government employee.
00:29:40.220 India previously announced an internal investigation and recommended legal action against an unnamed individual.
00:29:45.920 Who was held accountable and will India make the findings of that investigation public?
00:29:50.540 Listen, that's a U.S. thing. I don't know much about it.
00:29:53.360 I have read about it
00:29:55.320 But one thing is for sure
00:29:56.820 We are working with the US government
00:29:58.420 To make sure that if there are rogue elements
00:30:00.460 Within the Indian government
00:30:02.180 Who have done such things
00:30:03.720 That they be brought to justice
00:30:05.740 That they be taken to task
00:30:06.960 And that they be taken action against
00:30:09.120 So that is very clear
00:30:10.320 We are taking action on those issues
00:30:11.700 Same thing we are saying here in Canada
00:30:13.800 If the evidence comes out
00:30:17.500 That there are some rogue elements
00:30:19.120 Within India who are working 0.59
00:30:20.380 Or if we find 1.00
00:30:21.980 We will take action ourselves.
00:30:24.120 Up till now, we are very clear there is no involvement of the government of India in any of this.
00:30:29.040 The government of India does not do things like this.
00:30:31.920 But if there are rogue elements, and there are rogue elements everywhere in the world,
00:30:35.800 if there are rogue elements, we will take action ourselves.
00:30:38.300 We don't need anybody else to take action.
00:30:40.640 And we will work together with countries to discover what is really happening.
00:30:45.580 India designates Panun and his organizations as terrorists,
00:30:48.400 while he describes himself as a peaceful advocate of Khalistan.
00:30:51.980 Even when India considers someone a serious national security threat,
00:30:56.300 do you accept that India has no right to surveil, intimidate, or physically target that person
00:31:00.340 on Canadian or American soil outside the legal extradition process?
00:31:04.900 Of course. See, we have systems in place, legal systems in place,
00:31:12.600 to declare those we think are terrorist elements or those who are not, like everybody else has.
00:31:17.280 The U.S. has a full list of terrorist elements that they do.
00:31:19.960 They don't look to the other side to say
00:31:22.320 Do you agree you are a terrorist or not
00:31:24.280 Their system says
00:31:26.420 He is a terrorist, they put it together
00:31:27.940 Same with the Canadian system 0.96
00:31:29.580 Canadian system says these people are designated terrorists 0.51
00:31:32.500 Like the Babar Khalsa
00:31:33.780 Like the Sikh Youth Federation 1.00
00:31:35.780 Like Vishnoy gang 0.98
00:31:38.040 They have made clear that these are terrorists
00:31:40.100 Do they go to Lawrence Vishnoy and ask him
00:31:42.160 Do you agree to become me a terrorist?
00:31:44.780 No, this is done as per
00:31:46.500 Canadian laws
00:31:47.840 Canadian laws have the evidence to show that same with us.
00:31:52.120 We have laws which put together evidence to say that these people are proscribed as terrorists.
00:31:58.940 Now, whether they say yes or not doesn't matter.
00:32:01.840 It is our laws which have done it.
00:32:03.460 Like you trust the Canadian laws that Vishnu is a terrorist gang.
00:32:07.580 Trust our laws that we say these people are terrorists.
00:32:12.100 Now, whether we should surveil or not, of course we will surveil across the world.
00:32:16.020 Anybody we think is a terrorist
00:32:18.000 You think we will close eyes and say
00:32:19.940 Let him do what he does
00:32:21.000 We will have to survey 0.93
00:32:22.800 Same with the Americans, same with the Canadians
00:32:25.600 Once you declare somebody as terrorist 0.68
00:32:28.080 Why are you taking action against their
00:32:30.200 Gangs, because you have to
00:32:32.000 See what they are doing
00:32:32.960 And so
00:32:35.060 There is something odd in the question
00:32:37.940 You asked, because if I have said
00:32:40.020 Somebody is terrorist, I have to survey
00:32:42.080 Them no matter where they are in the world
00:32:43.660 Well, I mean, the notion is
00:32:45.720 what kind of activity would you be
00:32:47.720 willing to do outside of an
00:32:49.920 official collaboration? No, see we can't do
00:32:51.840 any activity here. So what do we do? We ask
00:32:53.900 the Canadian government to do it for us.
00:32:55.780 We ask the US government to do it. That's what
00:32:57.860 we do. Now if they do it and which
00:32:59.980 they are doing now. The Canadian authorities.
00:33:02.500 Canadian authorities and US authorities.
00:33:04.360 It is up to them. But
00:33:05.840 this is the cooperation that we have with them.
00:33:08.780 We look at their
00:33:09.820 terrorists, their anti-national amendments
00:33:11.840 if they are active in India 0.86
00:33:13.620 they look after our anti-national amendments
00:33:15.700 And they'll make sure that these people don't create problems here.
00:33:19.180 Like I said, in the past, they used to say that if they have committed crime in India,
00:33:24.220 but they have not committed crime in Canada, there's nothing we can do.
00:33:26.940 But now they've realized the same guy is committing crime here also.
00:33:30.320 So they are taking action.
00:33:31.900 My last question, I want to dive into the people side of this more than I want to dive in the government side.
00:33:37.160 You know, you are Indian, you have experience living in Indian society.
00:33:42.240 And of course, you have experience in diaspora as well.
00:33:44.300 And diaspora can look a little bit different than the local population sometimes.
00:33:49.120 But it seems in Canada there's a lot of smoke around the image of India's government,
00:33:53.620 specifically coming from the Sikh community in Canada.
00:33:56.680 Their organizations have been very active and vocal against reintegrating diplomatically with India.
00:34:02.080 Why do you think that is?
00:34:03.200 I mean, I have a hard time believing that there is smoke without fire.
00:34:07.560 What's the fire? What is it motivating these people?
00:34:10.140 Very good, very good question. Let me tell you one thing.
00:34:12.100 First you made a sweeping statement, Sikh community
00:34:14.920 Elements of that Sikh community, of course 1.00
00:34:17.460 Very small 1.00
00:34:18.120 I'll give you an example
00:34:19.280 But in Canada specifically
00:34:20.720 In Canada I'm programming
00:34:21.520 Very small elements, in Canada
00:34:22.960 I'll give you an example
00:34:24.040 There was this great singer, what's his name?
00:34:28.000 Diljit Dusanj
00:34:28.760 Diljit Dusanj
00:34:29.720 A big performer
00:34:31.940 And he's taken some bad views about the Khalistanis
00:34:36.680 He performed in Calgary, he performed in Vancouver
00:34:39.920 And I went to his performance in Toronto
00:34:41.960 in Toronto when I went to his performance
00:34:44.800 it was 60,000 people in a stadium
00:34:46.920 full of the Sikh community
00:34:48.620 60,000 people
00:34:50.140 and there were 15 or 12 people
00:34:53.140 outside the stadium
00:34:54.480 protesting against him
00:34:56.340 for being close with India
00:34:58.180 now when you say very loosely
00:35:00.580 the Sikh community
00:35:01.580 there were 60,000 people inside
00:35:03.720 and 12 people outside
00:35:05.380 so who represents the Sikh community
00:35:07.400 I don't know
00:35:08.800 it's a good notion
00:35:10.420 It's very clear. Small people making big noise is always easy to catch.
00:35:18.380 And that's what journalists catch.
00:35:20.640 So what I'm trying to tell you is, be clear as to what you see.
00:35:23.440 Sikh community here is a hardworking, very prosperous community.
00:35:27.780 Now what is happening? Because of the problems created by this small group,
00:35:32.660 today the problems that are facing many of the Indian students
00:35:36.260 comes because there is a feeling within Canada
00:35:39.820 that many of these Indian students who come here
00:35:42.280 are getting involved in these criminal activities. 1.00
00:35:47.940 And so that is what is creating the problem.
00:35:51.420 And so the more they keep on saying,
00:35:53.380 like you said, no smoke without fire.
00:35:55.240 I can easily create smoke without fire.
00:35:58.220 It's very easy.
00:35:59.480 Because today with social media, I can create so much smoke,
00:36:02.840 you will believe there is fire.
00:36:04.040 and so that's what is happening today
00:36:07.300 with social media I can create
00:36:09.260 as much smoke as you want without fire
00:36:11.560 you know it
00:36:12.820 you are in the journalistic business
00:36:14.580 and so if there was fire
00:36:16.980 let us say there was fire
00:36:18.280 which means that politically 1.00
00:36:20.080 the Khalistan movement should have
00:36:22.260 some elements in India
00:36:23.860 right
00:36:24.280 yes or no
00:36:26.280 because that is where they want 0.88
00:36:28.780 the issue
00:36:29.880 then where is the fire
00:36:31.800 it's like you know tell me where is the fire when you say fire it has to be in india the the it
00:36:38.760 doesn't necessarily need to try so so the question here may not be contingent on if there are some
00:36:44.940 sikh activists or opposition members who want an independent state inside of your borders it could
00:36:50.200 simply mean you know there's some sectarian strife as i mean india is very multicultural
00:36:54.580 i'm just telling even sectarian strike there has to be some sectarian strife in india right
00:36:58.780 which means there has to be some support in India
00:37:01.540 for Khalistan
00:37:02.580 right
00:37:03.780 not necessarily a state because again
00:37:07.000 the idea of courting
00:37:09.600 an independent state
00:37:10.440 here in Canada we have the Alberta independence
00:37:13.680 movement
00:37:13.940 yes there are
00:37:16.760 and they are also outside forces but specifically
00:37:19.160 what makes the Alberta movement credible as you are trying to
00:37:21.600 suggest is that there are people in Alberta
00:37:23.120 but that's also because they have the freedom they have a process
00:37:25.620 that's well known
00:37:26.360 Same way, same way. So there has to be political parties in India who support Khalisthan, right?
00:37:32.360 And there are. There is a political party called two to three political parties.
00:37:37.360 One political party, which is the Siromani Akali Dal Simarjit Singh Maan, which is there.
00:37:42.360 In the past, when the Khalisthan movement was strong in India, they had seven MPPs,
00:37:50.360 members of Provincial Parliament and two MPs in the centre and that was a political movement
00:37:57.180 and I am not denying that. Today they have zero members of Provincial Parliament or zero
00:38:04.420 members of the, but the political party is there, they try, they keep on talking to people,
00:38:09.040 they keep on saying we need Khalistan, there are few people who are doing it, but there
00:38:13.120 is no movement in India. My point is when you ask for fire, I am just telling you, the 0.99
00:38:18.200 is being here in Canada
00:38:20.700 there are more people here in Canada
00:38:23.080 who are Canadian citizens
00:38:24.740 like you asked one question
00:38:26.780 what did you say
00:38:27.400 why is India doing something in Canada
00:38:30.380 against these elements 0.94
00:38:31.580 why are Canadians
00:38:33.580 taking up an Indian issue when there is no issue in India
00:38:37.040 most of them are
00:38:37.720 India does not allow for dual nationality
00:38:40.440 but most of them have family in India
00:38:42.260 it doesn't matter they are Canadians
00:38:43.700 so why are they trying to do something 1.00
00:38:46.960 in India 0.99
00:38:47.420 which Indians 1.00
00:38:48.020 are not doing 1.00
00:38:48.580 give me an answer
00:38:50.740 on that
00:38:51.160 it's a very
00:38:51.960 simple answer
00:38:52.660 well perhaps
00:38:53.420 they have a
00:38:54.360 greater contingency
00:38:55.520 of freedom
00:38:56.060 or incentives
00:38:57.720 I mean
00:38:58.200 they can do that
00:38:58.820 as much as they want
00:38:59.740 there's no criminal
00:39:01.320 punishment
00:39:01.720 there's no criminal
00:39:02.640 punishment in India
00:39:03.580 I mean 1.00
00:39:04.780 I'm telling you
00:39:05.360 there seems to be
00:39:05.560 because it's an
00:39:06.500 interesting topic
00:39:07.140 I mean
00:39:07.460 sectarianism is
00:39:08.380 something that
00:39:08.900 can happen in
00:39:09.680 society
00:39:10.080 divisions
00:39:10.620 yeah
00:39:10.960 there are
00:39:11.380 political parties
00:39:12.820 in India
00:39:13.280 which support 1.00
00:39:13.840 Khalidzstan 1.00
00:39:14.340 but I'm asking 1.00
00:39:15.400 you
00:39:15.580 where is the
00:39:15.960 support for them
00:39:17.640 It's an interesting question.
00:39:19.760 Lastly, I, you know, working on the Hill,
00:39:23.580 speaking to members of the government,
00:39:25.260 members of the opposition party,
00:39:27.260 again, I think Sikhs perhaps as a whole,
00:39:30.360 not calisthenics, of course,
00:39:31.640 so let me clarify that,
00:39:32.540 but Sikhs as a whole have a greater representation
00:39:34.700 in Canada's parliament than actually in India,
00:39:38.240 a higher proportion than even their population.
00:39:41.180 In India, they have higher representation. 1.00
00:39:43.140 Sorry, here in Canada, I'm referring to. 0.51
00:39:44.580 So in Ottawa, there are more Sikh MPs as a percentage of total NTs than there are Sikhs in Canadian society overall. 0.96
00:39:50.040 Same in India.
00:39:50.700 But of course, in Canada, to a higher percentage point as well.
00:39:54.240 I just want to make that question to you.
00:39:57.940 Given that high representation of Sikh, and of course, I don't want to name any specific names,
00:40:03.180 but I'm sure you watch the news and you'd see that there's a number of them that have a very critical view of India's government,
00:40:08.820 critical view of Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his leadership.
00:40:11.960 you know do you feel that that's part of that smoke and fire that you know it's these politicians
00:40:19.460 that are running a certain message that happens to be popular among these diasporas and that's
00:40:24.060 the reason why i mean that's the infiltration quote-unquote in at least the political level
00:40:27.960 see i will not judge anything but i'll tell you the former head of the ndp took a line
00:40:35.600 What happened?
00:40:36.220 He lost his security deposit.
00:40:40.140 He couldn't even get enough votes to have the minimum amount.
00:40:43.980 NDP got wiped out.
00:40:46.240 Justin Trudeau took a line.
00:40:47.620 All the people who took a line on Khalistan got wiped out at the elections.
00:40:51.900 Only the few people who are left are still there. 0.97
00:40:55.180 Some of the old timers.
00:40:56.920 And so for you it's very easy to look at the numbers, look at the people.
00:41:01.980 These Sikhs want a society where they can be strong community builders.
00:41:07.160 They don't get into any of the negativity.
00:41:10.380 I mean, you think a normal Sikh would want to put up pictures of assassination of Prime Minister's killing of people and call it good. 1.00
00:41:20.320 I mean, what are you doing? 1.00
00:41:21.400 You're selling, I want to glorify a suicide bomber. 0.86
00:41:24.360 I want to glorify assassination of people. 1.00
00:41:27.820 You think a normal Sikh wants to do that? 1.00
00:41:30.520 Would you do that? 1.00
00:41:31.400 And you consider yourself to be a Democrat.
00:41:35.220 You want to fight for something?
00:41:37.020 Fight politically.
00:41:38.020 I have no problem.
00:41:40.960 Political fighting, government of India has no issue.
00:41:44.080 What are we saying against Khalidzani?
00:41:45.400 We are saying, don't glorify suicide bombers, don't glorify assassination of prime ministers.
00:41:51.840 You had a minister in Quebec, you remember, Laporte, who was killed by the Quebec separatists.
00:41:58.560 would happen if in the U.S. today there is a group which has said and said, wonderful,
00:42:03.940 Laporte has been killed. It's a great thing. Quebec should be separate. We support Quebec.
00:42:08.580 Will Canadians like that? Or if today somebody is killed in Alberta and somebody glorifies the
00:42:15.160 killing of that person in the U.S. and says Alberta should be separate and become part of
00:42:20.340 U.S. and that this person was killed was done for the right reasons. We need to kill more people 0.97
00:42:26.440 like them. We need to glorify. You think Albertans will like it or Canadians will like it. So you 1.00
00:42:32.440 have to think carefully as to who is doing what. If there is a political movement, I
00:42:37.560 agree. You make a political movement, you go to India, fight politics, sponsor political
00:42:43.180 parties, work with them. Don't do terrorism. Don't do negativity. Don't do supplying of
00:42:48.940 arms and ammunitions. Don't do criminal activities. Don't do drug smuggling. All these. Don't
00:42:55.700 don't do that. You are a political party, do political action. Who is telling you not
00:42:59.700 to? In fact, we are a democratic country that is a strength. Come and do politics in India.
00:43:05.020 Come and encourage people to listen to your viewpoint. But don't do this negative stuff.
00:43:11.080 That's my only question.
00:43:12.080 Hakim Mishra, thank you very much for your time speaking to the Western Center today.
00:43:16.160 Thank you.