Western Standard - September 06, 2026


HANNAFORD: Are activists trying to scare Canadians away from LNG?


Episode Stats


Length

25 minutes

Words per minute

149.25

Word count

3,816

Sentence count

180

Harmful content

Hate speech

2

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Good evening Western Standard viewers and welcome to Hannaford, a weekly politics show of the
00:00:20.800 Western Standard. It is Thursday, August the 27th. One thing that's part of life in Alberta is that
00:00:28.640 whenever somebody wants to think big and get something done that's going to make money for
00:00:33.260 investors and improve life for people, somebody else will step forward and argue why it shouldn't
00:00:39.560 be done. In fact, they'll sometimes do more than argue. They'll try and sabotage your work site,
00:00:45.040 as we saw on the building of the Coastal Gas Link a few years ago. With me tonight is Shannon
00:00:50.480 Joseph, Chair of Energy for a Secure Future. Welcome, Shannon. Thank you for having me.
00:00:56.660 Always a pleasure, Shannon.
00:00:59.180 So Shannon, you recently have been conducting a campaign, drawing attention to another campaign
00:01:09.460 against further pipeline development, and this at a crucial time when there are some
00:01:14.520 important developments in the works.
00:01:17.420 Tell us about the developments.
00:01:18.840 Tell us about why people are campaigning against it, what they're doing, the tactics they're
00:01:25.480 employing and what does your organization say about it well thank you Nigel I wouldn't I don't
00:01:31.000 know if I'd call it a campaign but I wrote an article uh called Canada's Strait of Hormuz oh
00:01:36.120 you're come on you're everywhere and with a slogan like Strait of Hormuz that's a campaign so it feels
00:01:41.400 like I wanted people to pay attention because um LNG Canada and the coastal gasoline pipeline
00:01:48.360 uh have allowed Canada to actually be a major exporter of LNG in the world and this has put us
00:01:54.200 on the world stage as being able to provide energy security to our international allies
00:01:59.720 who are suffering a lot right now because of the conflict in the Middle East.
00:02:03.600 Like 20% of global oil and gas supplies have been impacted by that conflict.
00:02:08.180 Most of that was going to Asia.
00:02:09.680 And those are all countries that aren't self-sufficient.
00:02:11.860 So in your article, Shannon, you wrote this.
00:02:15.740 The latest of these campaigns seeks to frighten residents of northern BC
00:02:23.580 see about what activists claim are the health dangers of the liquefied natural gas.
00:02:32.560 The real aim is to prevent Canadians from exporting energy insecure nations from accessing
00:02:43.480 Canada's over 400 trillion cubic feet of natural gas reserves.
00:02:50.080 To be sure, activist harassment is not the same thing as the outright war we see unfolding
00:02:54.920 in the Middle East, but you say its impact can be equally serious and strategic.
00:03:01.940 In their recent statement, the G7 nations encouraged the diversification of energy supply
00:03:07.800 routes in order to reduce global vulnerability to the Strait of Hormuz, and welcomed the
00:03:14.880 potential for Canada to deliver a significant additional capacity to
00:03:21.100 global markets in the coming years. You continue, but that won't be possible if
00:03:26.760 activist groups succeed in creating choke points within British Columbia.
00:03:33.060 Activists often claim to be promoting the interests of local communities, but
00:03:38.640 communities pay the price when activist campaigns destroy some of the best opportunities
00:03:48.400 available to them to end poverty and create a new future tell us about that and the latest
00:03:55.840 activity has been in criticizing um lng canada um during its commissioning which is going on right
00:04:03.120 now and it's while it's exporting it's working through things at the facility
00:04:06.880 The B.C. government and the local community of Kitimat, so Kitimat Regional District, have said, look, we're the most monitored airshed in the world, and we don't see any impacts from this at all.
00:04:20.700 But they've been going into communities scaring people about health risks to them, to their children, et cetera, from this facility.
00:04:30.060 So these people are actually doctors?
00:04:31.520 Yes, but they might not be a doctor that has anything to do with environmental health.
00:04:39.020 They might be a psychiatrist.
00:04:40.460 They might be some other kind of doctor.
00:04:42.680 Do we actually know what doctors we're talking about?
00:04:45.680 We do.
00:04:46.180 It's all on their website.
00:04:48.040 But the point is, none of them are, I would say, well, placed to speak on some of these things.
00:04:54.460 But even if they are, they're creating fear that ignores the work that's being done out there by people who live in the places where those risks exist and would be affected by them.
00:05:10.920 So I wanted to call attention to this because there are other LNG projects that are being proposed, including the phase two of LNG Canada's big project, which would also lead to an expansion in what's sent through the coastal gas link pipeline.
00:05:28.220 And there's the Solisim's LNG project. There's wood fiber LNG under construction. People in Alberta are talking about building a new oil pipeline. All of these things become kind of reasons for new activism. That's what we've seen in the past.
00:05:44.600 And I think it's important for Canadians to know that work has been done to understand
00:05:53.220 the safety of these facilities and that the people who live in the place who were involved
00:05:58.420 in building these projects and who were consulted on these projects, they have benefited significantly
00:06:05.240 from these projects going ahead in ways that wouldn't have been possible if they hadn't
00:06:10.620 been built.
00:06:11.620 Okay, so what we've got then is we've got a very successful build, not without its controversy at the time, not done without some, well, I think we made reference to them earlier, the damage done to equipment, people climbing up trees and trying to block progress and so on.
00:06:28.460 But finally, we've got the Canada Gas Link complete, and it is feeding a lot of gas.
00:06:35.560 How much gas into a terminal on the coast daily?
00:06:39.480 It's 14 million tons per annum. 14 MPTF. I'm going to get you the right numbers.
00:06:49.240 That's a lot of gas worth a lot of money. That's right. And it's making a lot of people,
00:06:55.700 giving them jobs and allowing them to do things they never thought they'd be able to do. 0.69
00:06:59.920 A lot of those people are indigenous. Not that they need work more than anybody else,
00:07:06.880 But they are traditionally an underserved part of the population, and now they're getting a chance.
00:07:14.160 Yes.
00:07:14.560 So there's so many good things.
00:07:17.480 What is it that is happening there that the physicians feel justified in going out and getting people scared of it?
00:07:28.280 So LNG Canada was the biggest infrastructure project in Canada's history.
00:07:34.140 We have in our Motney Basin in BC, 81 trillion cubic feet of natural gas.
00:07:42.760 And that is easily accessible.
00:07:45.200 400 trillion cubic feet of gas there if we could get the technology to get it all.
00:07:51.620 So this is a lot of gas.
00:07:54.120 And we happen to be a 10-day shipping to Asia compared to a 20-day or longer shipping through the Panama Canal.
00:08:02.240 And that means we can really make a difference to the lives of people.
00:08:09.280 And this has generated a lot of benefits.
00:08:12.160 So in your documentation, you've made reference to flaring.
00:08:18.240 We expect flaring around natural gas and, in fact, around oil projects.
00:08:23.520 Yes.
00:08:25.440 Is it flaring more than it should?
00:08:26.960 Well, right now it's flaring more than it should because it's in a commissioning phase. But that has been completely disclosed publicly. It's been monitored by the B.C. government. And as I said, the mayor of the Kitimat Regional District himself came out and talked about how this air shed is very well monitored.
00:08:46.780 They've had industrial activity from companies like Rio Tinto for many decades.
00:08:51.940 And he's like, there's nothing abnormal going on here.
00:08:56.260 And I should point out that this group doesn't like natural gas stoves and had a campaign related to that a few years ago.
00:09:05.780 So it's not necessarily about the current campaign is about this specific issue of flaring.
00:09:11.240 But it is connected to a much broader effort against the use of natural gas, its connection to buildings, its use in heating.
00:09:19.880 This group and many others who are allied with them, and they do work with lots of other groups, they just don't want people to use this anymore.
00:09:27.940 So I understand that the actual cause of the excess flaring is a broken piece of equipment that is being replaced.
00:09:34.580 um i haven't heard about this but what i do know is that when you're commissioning a new facility
00:09:41.620 um it causes there there's going to be more flaring than usual there'll be unusual issues
00:09:48.340 because you're getting your system to run the way it was designed to run and there are always
00:09:53.060 things to work through all right well we won't get super technical but it was something to do
00:09:59.780 with a with with a nozzle at the top of the stack that cracked and uh anyway it's got to be replaced
00:10:06.500 when it's replaced presumably everything comes down into acceptable levels the company meanwhile
00:10:11.780 has put in for uh special permissions to see them through how many people have died
00:10:21.860 um none that i'm aware of right and how many people are taking their children into the hospital
00:10:28.820 complaining of the ill effects of smelling too much of natural gases that you can't even
00:10:36.940 smell.
00:10:37.840 None that I'm aware of.
00:10:39.220 Right.
00:10:39.560 So there's a certain amount of, there is something that is not according to specs,
00:10:48.100 but it sounds, and I can't say this, but maybe you can, it sounds that this group of motivated 0.64
00:10:56.380 greenish physicians has taken something that's quite modest and trying to turn it into a big
00:11:03.400 deal and frighten people. Well, what they have done specifically is help advance resolutions
00:11:08.540 in different municipalities in that region. Part of it calls for an independent study of health
00:11:14.480 effects, which fair enough, and some of them voted to do that. And part of it calls to remove all
00:11:22.800 support for these kinds of industrial activities and for LNG in particular in that region,
00:11:28.640 which was either rejected by the communities in the region or never got put forward ultimately.
00:11:36.880 And so I think there are things going on. They're in a commissioning. They might have had a broken
00:11:42.960 hose. But the agenda being advanced, part of it is worthwhile. Sure, let's do a health study.
00:11:49.920 Part of it seems a bit disproportionate, let's not have support for this industry anymore,
00:11:55.760 even though its growth is important to the country and they're part of the major projects list.
00:12:01.120 I think everybody understands, and you're welcome to say it again, that the enormous
00:12:06.560 benefits of development to people who have not had much experience of becoming wealthy from
00:12:13.920 development mainly they uh my yeah my big concern with this effort and why i wrote that article
00:12:20.880 is that um they were activists who tried to prevent both lng canada and coastal gas link
00:12:26.240 from being built and when we actually look at what happened in the region we see an increase
00:12:33.760 of uh the number of nurses by like almost 120 nurses per hundred thousand people in the region
00:12:40.320 that's important we see this is facilitated by the revenues that come correct and and attracting
00:12:47.760 people to the region 75 000 over 75 000 construction jobs 300 permanent more than 300
00:12:54.560 permanent jobs that will continue beyond construction uh we saw the first nations in
00:12:59.840 the region all of whom have benefit agreements and 16 out of the 20 of whom have equity options
00:13:05.040 in the project their own source revenue go up 159 percent and you know these are communities
00:13:12.240 um that yeah have not had the same economic standing as the rest of bc and we did analysis
00:13:18.720 on our report when our nation builds that shows that discrepancy with the rest of bc and how it
00:13:24.160 shifted we also showed what they're spending that money on and the biggest thing was education and
00:13:29.440 education is actually another number that moved a lot in the period of construction for the project
00:13:34.640 with going from 71% high school completion to 79%.
00:13:38.800 And so I think the question people never ask
00:13:44.460 because you just see the project out there
00:13:46.500 and you're like, oh, we're so glad this exists
00:13:48.360 is what would have happened if this project didn't happen?
00:13:52.160 What would have happened to the businesses
00:13:54.580 that got 18.4 billion in procurement locally?
00:13:59.040 Well, I think that's the total number.
00:14:01.160 And I think maybe it was closer to 5 billion
00:14:03.000 local and First Nation.
00:14:04.640 What would have happened to those businesses?
00:14:07.540 They wouldn't have gotten those businesses.
00:14:09.200 They would have had to leave.
00:14:10.300 As part of the work we've done to tell the story about the numbers,
00:14:13.980 we interviewed a businessman who had to leave Kinemat
00:14:17.480 because there were no more jobs for him.
00:14:20.280 And when LNG Canada got approved, he and his family were able to move back.
00:14:24.820 And these are the consequences of activism that don't get talked about.
00:14:30.580 there's a kind of a disconnect between the real effects that are being pursued and actually the
00:14:37.800 real things that have helped families and communities materially improve the lives of
00:14:43.400 people who've been looking for these opportunities, maybe for decades. This is why we get off on the
00:14:49.260 track of talking about the activists, because you've just detailed the consequences of activism.
00:14:56.280 What else is on the horizon in this industry, in this area, which could be affected by the work of these, I won't call them rogue physicians, but physicians who are more interested in the atmosphere than the health of individuals?
00:15:15.380 Well, I think the first thing is that when people think, oh, you know, if this project gets cancelled in Quebec, let's say if we talked about LNG Sagnais, or if this, you know, thing takes a really long time, if we talk about, you know, the very long period of time it took to get LNG Canada from the first idea to being shipping gas, we think there are no consequences.
00:15:39.760 But there are consequences. When Canada becomes a place where projects get cancelled, where construction sites get attacked, people think twice about investing their money here. LNG Canada has five international partners who invested in making the project happen.
00:15:57.940 And I'm very grateful to them because the things that Canada needs to build, whether it's pipelines or LNG facilities or nuclear facilities or mines, we need foreign direct investment.
00:16:10.320 We need capital from other countries.
00:16:12.760 And the things that have happened in Canada in the last decade have scared away investment.
00:16:17.680 And now we have a major projects office and now we're really trying to show that things can happen.
00:16:22.160 And we are a politically reliable place to do business.
00:16:26.400 But we are working against the experience people have had, the things they have seen, like that attack on the construction site, like the rail blockades.
00:16:36.920 And we have to say, no, don't worry, that won't happen again.
00:16:41.320 And so I think the success story is important.
00:16:45.180 I think new policy has been important.
00:16:47.980 And I think Canadians need to know what they're fighting for.
00:16:52.140 And they're fighting, and by fighting, I mean supporting the growth of our economy and these projects, because at street level, in communities, in households, people can have a better life, a higher income, afford their groceries, and that's the only way to do it.
00:17:11.260 That's how you raise standards of living.
00:17:12.960 So whatever is true of natural gas pipelines, which are generally considered to be better than oil pipelines, is nevertheless true of oil pipelines.
00:17:27.880 That is correct.
00:17:29.380 That is correct.
00:17:29.960 So that right now, both Mr. Carney, the prime minister, and Daniel Smith, the premier, have high hopes of announcing that a pipeline will be built.
00:17:41.880 Right.
00:17:42.360 But it will be for oil.
00:17:43.560 Yep.
00:17:44.300 So in addition to noxious fumes coming out of the stack, do you anticipate there's going to be a campaign against an oil pipeline as well?
00:17:57.820 I'm sure it'll be a campaign.
00:17:59.500 I'm sure there'll be a lawsuit there'll be all kinds of stuff thrown at this thing as there has
00:18:04.060 been against every project that we've seen in the last few years. I think what's important is that
00:18:10.140 the public knows is able to discern okay what's a real concern here or what's just a campaign and
00:18:18.300 having a report like when our nation builds that really looks at the local benefits and also
00:18:23.660 projections of what we could get if we keep going with these projects which includes greater
00:18:29.340 improvements in household incomes, etc., can give us the confidence to resist getting kind of putting
00:18:37.640 the brakes on things because of some of these campaigns. And I think it's especially important
00:18:42.160 for First Nations to see what nations like Haisla and what, you know, the Gitsan and five others
00:18:49.520 who have just done, what the nations, the upstream who are now major participants, what they've been
00:18:56.000 able to do by saying yes even though it's not easy to work through details saying yes and being part
00:19:01.840 of the success of these things has created real benefits and and and it's worth it and um they
00:19:09.020 don't need to necessarily buy into leonardo dicaprio for lying into their community and saying
00:19:14.720 hey this is bad they know for themselves their own experience they know the facts of other
00:19:20.280 communities experience. And so we should take advantage of starting from this place that is
00:19:25.760 benefiting from the courage of the companies and the First Nations and the workers who pushed
00:19:31.300 through and got these projects to happen. Two questions then as we wrap up. The first is what
00:19:38.040 has been the response of communities councils in the area to the kind of arguments that have
00:19:45.300 been advanced by this group of physicians?
00:19:49.940 Well, I think that the communities in the area have said, okay, well, we care about
00:19:54.780 health.
00:19:55.280 Let's do a study.
00:19:56.680 But we support this industry.
00:20:00.180 They've been clear they support this industry and have not advanced kind of the shut down
00:20:05.620 the industry, pushbacking it's the industry thing.
00:20:07.940 But there are other communities in that region who haven't weighed in or we haven't seen
00:20:13.700 publicly how they feel about some of what they've heard in the course of this campaign.
00:20:19.800 And I think it's just important for us to know that those of us who care about these things
00:20:26.960 have to be out there as well with the facts and information that can bring balance to
00:20:34.760 the scare tactics that some groups might use.
00:20:37.960 Well, you certainly, and you are doing that, and that's great.
00:20:40.580 But if you're a council member representing a community which is benefiting from this thing, I find it rather strange that you wouldn't be out there saying these guys are just a title to their opinion, but we don't share it, and we're going ahead.
00:20:57.240 Sometimes they are.
00:20:58.440 And as I said, the mayor...
00:20:59.560 Smithers was one, I believe.
00:21:01.080 Yes, but I think that the reporters don't always go all the way to Kitimat or to Smithers to ask people there what they think about these things, you know.
00:21:11.900 And so they don't always have the same visibility that some of those on the other side have.
00:21:17.440 And I think, too, you know, I'd call on all the journalists and all the people who decide their budgets, make the trip out.
00:21:25.140 Oh, yeah, well, good luck with that.
00:21:27.460 You know, if it's not on the Internet, they probably won't.
00:21:30.320 But that leads to the final question.
00:21:37.520 You have answered this question in many places before, but it's always a good thing to say it one more time.
00:21:45.220 Why is and how is natural gas so much better for the environment?
00:21:51.540 If you are a person who really cares about the atmosphere and whether we're warming the earth up, natural gas is the thing.
00:21:59.000 Why is that the case?
00:22:01.320 Well, just on the kind of greenhouse gas question, natural gas is 50 percent of the greenhouse gases as coal, which is, you know, has similar uses, especially in electricity.
00:22:15.940 And so for countries like India or like China or like Vietnam, who have millions of people who don't have the electricity they need, their goal is get everybody electricity.
00:22:28.640 And if they have to burn coal, they will. And most of those countries have been pretty aggressive in building coal fire electricity because they're like, get the electricity. But they still need more energy. And so the question for us is, are we going to get them this lower emitting form of energy?
00:22:45.760 Because it's not just greenhouse gases that are lower in natural gas compared to coal.
00:22:51.980 It's, you know, nitrous oxides and sulfurous oxides and particulate matter.
00:22:58.060 Like, you know, the things that cause smog are higher in coal than they are in natural gas.
00:23:03.040 So if you care about the environment and if you care about public health and air quality, natural gas burns cleaner than coal.
00:23:10.140 And if you care about people, then you know that people in Vietnam or in India want to have a cool home.
00:23:19.920 They too would like air conditioning.
00:23:22.720 They too would like reliable power for their hospitals.
00:23:26.740 And they're not going to not do that because of any environmental issue.
00:23:33.080 And we see that all the time.
00:23:34.580 In that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, people want to meet their needs first.
00:23:40.140 and then they care about other values.
00:23:43.120 And I think we in the West and we in Canada
00:23:46.860 have the resources, have the energy security
00:23:51.860 to have really made innovation and strives
00:23:54.860 to be both environmentally innovative
00:23:56.920 and also to develop a resource.
00:23:59.140 If we wanna help other countries benefit from that,
00:24:02.540 then we need to think of that big picture.
00:24:05.040 It seems to me that everybody should have access
00:24:09.080 those things if it can be done and if it can be done it should be done in the cleanest way possible
00:24:13.640 absolutely it strikes me a little presumptuous on the part of these doctors to say that we're
00:24:19.000 much too pure to sell natural gas to anybody upon their heads be it as the temperature goes up
00:24:26.440 that's right and in our paper when we talk about environmental benefits i'll say one more thing
00:24:30.600 like lng canada um is sixty percent uh less emitting of greenhouse gas than the average
00:24:37.800 facility globally and 35% better than some of the best facilities. And so we are up there. We've made
00:24:44.600 the commitments to do this thing right, and we should be proud of getting our resources to the
00:24:49.720 people who need it, because they need it. Canadian brilliance in action for the world.
00:24:53.960 That's right.
00:24:55.080 Quite a slogan. Lovely to see you again in the studio, Shannon. Please keep us abreast of how
00:25:02.120 this campaign develops, and maybe we can have you back to take a progress report in a while.
00:25:08.200 All right. Well, thank you so much.
00:25:09.960 You're very welcome. For the Western Standard, I'm Nigel Hannaford.
00:25:32.120 You