Western Standard - HANNAFORD： What if the West really does want out？

00:00:00.000 Good evening Western Standard viewers and welcome to Hannaford, a weekly politics show of the

00:00:20.680 Western Standard. With me today is Randy Royer and Natalie St. Hilaire. Mr. Royer is a Calgary-based

00:00:28.700 entrepreneur author and western standard columnist focused on alberto western canadian issues

00:00:35.020 democracy provincial ptolemy and with randy comes natalie natalie saint-hilaire also an entrepreneur

00:00:42.300 and a columnist for the western standard and i dare say others she's the host of their podcast

00:00:48.140 nation of people randy natalie welcome to the show thank you lovely to have you so let me start with

00:00:56.380 you randy um you wrote a book called alberta should lead not leave so i guess that makes you

00:01:04.700 a federalist well i don't think of myself as a federalist the way i view myself is i'm a people

00:01:10.860 first kind of person and i believe that whatever we end up doing and i think that there's flexibility

00:01:17.820 in that but whatever our political geography turns out to be what i really want is i want

00:01:23.180 the people to be in charge and the government institutions and our elected and judicial people

00:01:29.020 responsible to us rather than the other way around that's my dream all right natalie um i mean

00:01:36.300 you've run a podcast together i'm i'm assuming that that's more or less how you see things as well

00:01:42.220 i mean i i do see things a little bit differently than randy but um you know i i think how i

00:01:48.540 characterize myself as a concerned citizen and I don't necessarily have the answer about you know

00:01:54.300 what we should do I think we're in the middle of a process that's really important and that

00:01:58.940 a lot of other concerned citizens have started and I'm what I've found in speaking with Randy

00:02:04.860 and in and understanding Randy's perspective on particularly the Constitution is that there are

00:02:10.540 some serious issues that really find themselves rooted in that document and and so it's been such

00:02:16.220 a learning curve for me and i i think that adding that information and knowledge to the the echo

00:02:22.380 chamber that or the the ecosphere the the ether is really really important for us right now well

00:02:27.420 let's talk about those issues then the phrase you used you wanted to see government responsible to

00:02:33.340 the people rather than people responsible to the government yes uh i mean i think that's something

00:02:38.460 that anybody who pays attention can see has evolved over the quite a long period of time but certainly

00:02:44.620 that's the way the government would like to imagine it. But now you're talking about the issues

00:02:51.660 that surround new constitutional arrangements, let's just name it, separation, independence.

00:02:59.900 What is it specifically that you want to change? Who wants to go on that?

00:03:04.780 Well, I'll jump in if I may. So my primary thesis that I propose to Natalie in our podcast

00:03:12.220 is that the 1982 constitution was a government-based document that concentrated power

00:03:18.780 further into the hands of the government. And we didn't even have a say in it. There was no

00:03:23.620 referendum on it. I actually voted against it because I was at a convention in the Liberal

00:03:30.400 Party where the question was put forward. And I was one of the few people that voted against it.

00:03:35.740 And the reason is because I knew that that was going to change Canada. It was going to

00:03:40.660 concentrate power. It was going to create a larger bureaucracy. So you are actually a reformed

00:03:45.840 liberal. Well, the story in our podcast that I tell is that I entered national politics to figure

00:03:52.060 out what was going on. How could we have Western alienation in a democracy? And so I, with a bunch

00:03:58.860 of other people, decided we were either going to join the, what was the WCC at the time,

00:04:04.060 or the federal liberals. Because we said, you know, there's lots of good people in the

00:04:07.780 Conservative Party. Let's do something contrary. So I ended up being in the Liberal Party. And

00:04:13.460 quite honestly, I came to understand what the problems were at the national level.

00:04:18.080 And I don't want them, if we have a separate Alberta, I don't want them to infect Alberta

00:04:24.100 the way it's infected Canada. Well, Randy, what were the problems that you,

00:04:28.580 once you had infiltrated the Liberal Party, what did you find?

00:04:32.820 Concentration of power is probably the biggest one that there, you know, the prime minister's office, for example, in the first Trudeau's era, it was a scandalous 115 people in the PMO and the Privy Council.

00:04:48.300 Now it's 1500 people.

00:04:50.320 And so, you know, what I understand now is that in the later stages of the Trudeau era, this last Trudeau era, no one in the bureaucracy would do anything without checking in the prime minister's office.

00:05:01.200 So the concentration of power is incredible. That's number one.

00:05:05.900 Number two is that we have all these entrenched things that keeps the power in their hands.

00:05:12.300 And that just fundamentally has to change in order to give the power back to the people.

00:05:18.000 So just supposing, and I know that you are not here to advance the independence cause,

00:05:25.740 but there are many albertans who do want to take alberta out of canada yeah all right let's say

00:05:34.060 they succeed are they not going to run into the same kind of dynamics where power tends to flow

00:05:41.580 towards the middle how what would you say to them i wouldn't use the term towards the middle i would

00:05:47.420 say that the power tends to get concentrated and that's the problem and and the same issues that

00:05:52.620 we have at the national level it basically replicated at the provincial level the good

00:05:57.900 thing about in alberta is that we have this history of populism and of interaction between

00:06:05.020 you know the ralph klein was a good example he mean he went and talked to people average people

00:06:10.300 on a daily basis so it's a little closer so it's less of a problem but even in an independent

00:06:15.660 alberta with the same institutions it will eventually get worse and worse and worse

00:06:20.620 Natalie, do you think that's something that's peculiar to Alberta and Canada, or is this kind

00:06:25.380 of the way politics works all over the world, or at least in what we might call the liberal

00:06:30.760 democratic world?

00:06:32.280 Well, I think what's changed for me is that the story I was told about a constitution

00:06:36.960 is that it was well thought out and decided upon by people that have education and have

00:06:43.780 spent time understanding how institutions should work together, what the balance of

00:06:47.460 power should be, checks and balances, really an American story about the Constitution. And I

00:06:52.700 thought that we had a similar structure. I knew it was different, but I thought it was similarly

00:06:57.920 well-conceived of in Canada. What I've come to learn by talking to Randy, who was actually

00:07:03.060 there when Pierre Elliott Trudeau proposed it, and who, you know, really, you witnessed how the

00:07:08.800 premiers negotiated about the Constitution, was that we have this foundational document now

00:07:14.460 that is really about solving a political problem at the time for the Liberals

00:07:19.180 and not about how our country is going to run in the long run

00:07:22.540 with appropriate checks and balances

00:07:24.280 that would hopefully stop this sort of cascading of power

00:07:29.680 into a centralized body.

00:07:33.100 And that's what I'm hopeful for,

00:07:34.380 is a structure and a foundation that actually has checks and balances.

00:07:38.540 Well, what do you think was the problem

00:07:40.560 that the Liberals were trying to solve in 1982?

00:07:43.100 too well i think quebec was trying to separate uh i think that and ultimately i do think that

00:07:51.100 what had become clear over the 70s is that alberta had a lot of natural resource wealth

00:07:56.540 particularly in terms of oil and uh they had i i think that foundationally in canada we need

00:08:04.860 to wrestle with what do we do with our natural resource revenue especially who's the we who's

00:08:10.300 doing the wrestling here well between the west and the east between the west and the east i mean we

00:08:15.260 would like to be in complete control of our natural resource revenue but there seems to be some

00:08:20.060 tension right between alberta and ottawa about who really gets the the benefit of that uh natural

00:08:27.420 resource extraction of course in the original original constitution randy you're going to

00:08:31.740 correct me if i'm wrong here is the provinces have it but since the 70s i think it's become

00:08:37.100 apparent to Ottawa and people out east that we might be profiting off of something that they

00:08:42.540 can't control or profit off similarly from. Well, I think you're certainly speaking for a lot of

00:08:48.700 people when you couch it in those terms. That brings us back to equalization and the distribution

00:08:56.460 of wealth and so on, but we were talking earlier and we were talking about how there is a set of

00:09:02.940 values that seem to be entrenched in the politics of Eastern Canada that we're not really sympathetic

00:09:13.020 with in Alberta. You might characterize it as, you don't have the money, but stay out of our face.

00:09:23.580 How is it that Ottawa gets in Alberta's face?

00:09:27.100 Well, Nigel, thanks very much for setting this up because that is exactly what we talk

00:09:31.660 about in episode three of our podcast and we go back to the very roots that the you know the

00:09:37.020 populating of eastern canada was a very different process than the populating of western canada

00:09:42.700 and so we talk about how there's very different characters um you know not neither is right or

00:09:48.860 wrong it's just they're different and uh and we talk about uh eastern canada and to some degree

00:09:54.700 the pacific uh you know vancouver and victoria they were colonies of britain they were direct

00:09:59.980 colonies of britain so when the people came there they came there to support well actually the

00:10:05.180 european king including uh including quebec and so they their character is is really uh continuity

00:10:12.300 loyalty and deference to authority when alberta and the west were colonized they didn't have

00:10:19.580 enough loyal british citizens to colonize the west so they opened it up to people from all over europe

00:10:24.780 and and a bunch from the united states and those people came to the west seeking freedom

00:10:29.580 democracy and a right to build new life and which is a difference different suite of values isn't it

00:10:36.060 totally different suite of values and the 82 constitution was built on the eastern on the

00:10:41.900 eastern uh values and it was interviewed the the west values as something that need to be

00:10:48.060 extinguished over time but you know randy or hillary if you want to get sorry natalie if

00:10:53.580 you want to get right into it uh i don't think that that's the stuff uh the the deferential

00:11:04.060 fall-up tugging uh set suite of values that we're objecting to here we see things like the

00:11:11.020 encroachment on personal liberty uh that uh that has come from a whole batch of legislation that's

00:11:17.900 before us at the moment they want to read your email for heaven's sake um they they if you if

00:11:23.340 you object to the uh some of the social values that they're promoting i mean let's name them i

00:11:29.260 mean the trans and this kind of thing that's not the only one but that that's a common one that

00:11:36.300 gets brought up in conversation well then they trash you so that's i think what rubs a lot of

00:11:44.060 people the wrong way or am i wrong and no you're not wrong you're absolutely right but what we're

00:11:49.980 describing is that the character is foundational and from character comes culture from culture

00:11:55.820 comes the way you think and then the decisions that you make the actions you take and then the

00:12:00.060 net results so at the very base at the very character we have two very different ways of

00:12:06.300 thinking and so those issues that you just brought up to eastern canada they defer to authority and

00:12:13.180 And the authority says, well, we need to read your emails.

00:12:16.580 In Western Canada, we want freedom.

00:12:19.640 We want to not be hindered by an intrusive government.

00:12:22.420 And so those things are absolutely offensive to us.

00:12:25.580 And so that is the primary divide.

00:12:28.280 And so if we are to remain as a country, my position, and Natalie supports me on this one,

00:12:35.700 at least helps me draw it out, is that we have to have a constitution that enables,

00:12:41.740 allows and encourages both sets of characters is that possible well it is sort of black and white

00:12:48.620 at the same time uh well it one of the ways to do it is to have to push sovereignty down to push

00:12:55.820 sovereignty you know we talk about the two nation policy where you know the ottawa and quebec views

00:13:02.140 the country as two nations one a sovereign quebec and the other english canada that's a unitary

00:13:07.180 state well english canada is not a unitary state the west is very different than ontario and so

00:13:13.260 let's one solution is to push the sovereign the the you know power down so that the provinces

00:13:19.580 can make those decisions not just the federal government i imagine at some point you've been to

00:13:24.700 halifax oh yeah yeah yeah i love so well that's a matter of fact so do i it was a great place

00:13:29.900 i think some good times there um when you go to halifax there's the fortress on the top of the

00:13:35.340 hill in the big old cannons there from 200 years ago pointing out over the water and the old town

00:13:43.660 is just tucked in close. They got as close as they could to protection because they saw the

00:13:51.580 government as their friend and their provider and their protector. That's why they left the 13

00:13:58.620 colonies because that was not the kind of government that was forming there. You come out

00:14:05.100 to western Canada, and where is our old town clustered under the fort? We don't have one.

00:14:14.380 People got as far away from government as they possibly could, and out in the freedom of the

00:14:20.380 prairies, they built their own lives the way they wanted to build them. I see that as a picture of

00:14:26.540 the difference between the Eastern mindset and the Western mindset. What do you say?

00:14:31.420 um sorry i'm gonna jump in here if you don't mind natalie but um what's very interesting

00:14:37.740 is that you know going backwards and taking a broader perspective what's happening is there's

00:14:44.460 a slight trend towards alberta's way of thinking that you know government has become too intrusive

00:14:51.740 and so you've taken this is happening back east this is happening i think of ontario yes and even

00:14:57.260 in quebec you know the the way they look at at uh at their nationalism now is it's not it's not as

00:15:03.180 strong as it's really more you know individualism is gaining power and and as you said we're steeped

00:15:10.540 in it deeply here in the west and it's just starting to emerge and so that's why my view

00:15:17.100 of this nation of people thing is is that if you empower people it will encourage the blossoming

00:15:23.740 of individualism in eastern canada but you have to recognize that they they need to have the right

00:15:29.260 in their province to you know to have collectivism and and and you know the good thing about the

00:15:35.660 collectivism you're talking about you know at the bottom at the base of halifax is it's also a social

00:15:42.220 social glue and so you know the the as we change and as we become more nationalist sorry more

00:15:49.500 individualistic we also want to maintain the social glue that which is the strength of the east

00:15:54.620 so um but you're you're quite right the united empire loyalists i mean literally they fled freedom

00:16:00.540 and democracy and that populated much of ontario and atlantic canada and somehow those i'd go ahead

00:16:06.380 you're gonna remark on that i i agree i i mean i grew up in ontario until uh grade eight and when

00:16:13.740 i got to alberta i felt like i could finally breathe again and i realized it's because of this

00:16:18.540 individual sovereign spirit that's pioneering and entrepreneurial idea that anybody can make

00:16:24.400 something of themselves in their lives and you need a strong sense of individualism I think to

00:16:29.880 feel that energy that we have here and it's quite different than Ontario where it's sort of like

00:16:34.200 it's it's who you know it's where you're positioned in society everybody follows the the general

00:16:40.800 construct of things and knows their spot and and and follows along or tries to climb a ladder that

00:16:47.480 way i and i i prefer to feel like i could make something of myself regardless of who i know i

00:16:52.640 where i come from i've just been given the five minute signal so i'm going to ask you both to

00:16:57.800 summarize what it is that you are trying to achieve through your podcast nation of people

00:17:04.120 uh where do you want albert if you if you're king for a day where would you want to albertans to

00:17:12.940 land when they go and vote in this referendum on october the 19th you want to go ahead yeah well

00:17:20.940 i mean i want people to vote in a way that they feel really well informed about and with a deep

00:17:26.860 understanding of the issues that we're facing um i i don't have a preference about you know people

00:17:33.500 want to vote to stay or they want to vote to leave i think they have to look at the moment that we're

00:17:37.260 the opportunity to have leverage to change things and you know what they choose to do I just I hope

00:17:46.160 that I just hope they all go out there and vote because it is a very consequential referendum

00:17:50.740 oh yeah absolutely so what specific structural reforms would you want to see to keep Alberta

00:18:00.220 within confederation and happy to be there um do you mind if I go back and ask you answer your

00:18:06.520 first question first about king of the day yeah sure because i have an answer that i really want

00:18:10.140 to get out so if i were a king for that for a day the first thing i would do is sign a massive

00:18:16.200 magna carta to say to everyone you have the power don't look to the king and if you have the power

00:18:23.860 you also have the responsibility so responsibility requires engagement and information and a wise

00:18:29.980 decision and i would say as king i believe in your wisdom i believe that you can think this

00:18:36.860 through and come up with the right answer and the right strategy and uh and so i would i think the

00:18:42.680 most important thing is empowering people and that's what we want to do on nation of people

00:18:46.220 all right okay well looking past october the 19th then um what sort of an what does success look like

00:18:57.800 what would be the kind of outcome i'm talking about the percentage support perhaps uh but

00:19:06.660 regardless of the final numbers how do you how do you hope that this settles out because somebody

00:19:14.000 is going to be disappointed someone's going to be disappointed and i'm hoping that we can find

00:19:20.440 something that replicates what has happened in alberta's history which is that we find common

00:19:26.980 ground amongst the people not a political common ground but a common ground for the people and that

00:19:32.180 we can have a massive movement towards that that's that's my aspiration i don't don't exactly know

00:19:37.460 what that is and it's part of our process they have to have a mechanism to express it and that's

00:19:42.020 where you run into the well cynical central government uh well this i mean i think that this

00:19:49.300 referendum is it could potentially i'll put it that way uh be that mechanism because we saw

00:19:56.420 that through the quebec separatist movement canada changed and uh there's two scenarios

00:20:02.580 where that we're looking at one is where alberta starts its march out of the country or alternatively

00:20:10.020 canada might say this is our time to grow up and to actually start thinking and i'm seeing

00:20:15.860 it right across the country right now this movement is alberta is causing people to say

00:20:19.860 well what have we done wrong and that might be are they really asking themselves that i think

00:20:25.700 there were some that are or are they just oh there goes alberta again there's some that are

00:20:30.100 doing that too um no but you what you want to do is is again if you look at the entrepreneurial

00:20:35.300 class in in ontario they're questioning because they're a little bit sympathetic you look at the

00:20:41.300 individualists in in quebec they're questioning because they want individualism to rise so i

00:20:49.300 think that it's not everybody but there are those that are questioning so i think that if we decide

00:20:54.020 to stay in canada i'm hoping it's a cathartic moment that canada can come to life and to start

00:21:00.900 being what it actually could be and and i think alberta separatism could be the catalyst for that

00:21:07.540 last question to both of you how strong will the yes vote be not elite i think it's going to be

00:21:13.780 stronger than people think i think that a lot of people are going to be a number oh a number

00:21:19.540 i think there's a good chance they win really yeah all right i do right now okay how about

00:21:25.140 you randy i have no idea um oh come on i i think you know it's all gonna unfold with what happens

00:21:30.740 but the leaders decide to do um right now i think i mean i just go with what the polls are saying

00:21:35.940 30 in favor but i think what natalie is thinking is that the no side the the remain side may not

00:21:42.660 show up because they message us this is a silly question and i think it's dangerous to not be

00:21:48.340 engaged and that really is your message isn't it it is yes yeah thank you very much thank you both

00:21:54.420 natalie and randy thank you for joining us here today it's been great to talk to you i think we

00:21:59.860 may need to have you back i look forward to it thank you very much you're very welcome

00:22:03.940 For the Western Standard, I'm Nigel Hannaford.

Western Standard - August 23, 2026

HANNAFORD： What if the West really does want out？

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