00:02:52.160or were you looking at the woman in the red dress it's just a grotesque post-modern psyop
00:02:57.620and anyone who's fallen for this is brain damaged hello hello glorious listeners today we are joined
00:03:03.340by entronius we are just we're going to be discussing today haligula the ultimate god which
00:03:11.340which um released in 2023 which uh we watched as part of the anarchonomicon movie club
00:03:19.580And we actually read Suetonius' Lives of the Twelve Caesars, one of the primary texts on Caligula, as part of the Anarchonomicon Book Club, which Atronius joined us for both. Say hello, Atronius.
00:03:36.660hello hello i recommend everyone to to join the the discord and ergonomical discord very fun
00:03:45.580many fun events very smart people it's good and uh as a audience member and uh how should i call
00:03:57.300myself I don't know a fan a fan of kulak fan of the kulak revolution here I am let's talk
00:04:06.580yeah no it's been it's been a great great group of people great great reading and
00:04:16.740finally have people interested in my obscure obscure movies so for those of you at home
00:04:24.520going um what the hell Caligula wasn't that like the 1979 1980 movie with uh
00:04:33.560with Peter O'Toole and Malcolm McDowell that was like a porno yes you are correct so Caligula uh
00:04:44.260has one of the most insane production histories of any film ever made um the production started
00:04:52.920in like the early 70s like 71 and the vision of the film uh was it's really funded by playboy
00:05:02.740magazine and they had like they had um this rock star italian director tinto bras who is really
00:05:10.520coming up through um italian cinema and they managed to get gore vidal the famous writer
00:05:16.340to write a script and the vision was was that um they're going to create a film that would be
00:05:23.160hard r-rated but would be deeply um have deep literary merit that it was going to be
00:05:32.460kind of kind of hbo before hbo that it was going to be like yes lots of nudity lots of violence
00:05:41.300but it was going to be shakespearean in quality it was going to really get get to the nature of
00:05:47.260ancient ancient rome and it was going to be this amazing artistic and literary achievement and
00:05:54.800looking at a script it absolutely had that it had this rock star writer producing it
00:06:00.480and of course this concept like now this is if you've seen like hbo's rome or um spartacus on
00:06:07.940stars or um even something like 300 this concept like this is how you depict ancient rome now this
00:06:16.820is the standard of it the thing is in the 70s this was incredibly speculative this entire idea
00:06:22.540and they managed to get a budget of like 30 million 1970s dollars which is an insane amount
00:06:28.760of money to produce it and basically they they blew through the money they produced all this footage
00:06:39.260and then well the story of the production in in itself would be an entire episode um the writer
00:06:50.360the director quit in fury or was kicked depending on the version of the story
00:06:55.300Gore Vidal sued to have his name removed from the project and one of the producers this um
00:07:03.520this pornography producer wound up with the rights to it and he disappeared with it for like
00:07:11.140three years and when they had hundreds of hours of footage shot they had like
00:07:17.000three to four hours of like a solid film they had premiered the film uh the director's version
00:07:23.880in rome and it was supposed to be one of the most insane like impressive films ever made
00:07:30.120it finally releases in sending 79 i think was the uh final film release yeah 79 and
00:07:39.200and this producer had cut it down to an hour and a half and 40 minutes of it was portographic
00:07:47.560footage that had been shot in post like not even main cast or main sets and this was a scandal
00:07:56.320one one film critic called it a filmic holocaust that it was cut down to just the violence just
00:08:07.580the sex and then 40 minutes of extra sex added but the thing is there's there's always and it
00:08:15.660made hundreds of millions of dollars like uh this was the correct financial move in 1980s cinema
00:08:23.140this was going around smut theaters for um for years and years and years afterwards the thing
00:08:29.760is there's always a mystery to this because because you had edgar o'toole lawrence of arabia
00:08:37.200in this uh playing emperor tiberius you had malcolm mcdowell after uh he was in a clock
00:08:43.820gregorne should a ton of other movies playing caligo you had helen mirren as um one of the
00:08:51.180the main girls in like this highly sexual role and you had like uh glenn gilgood and all these
00:08:59.980other shakespearean actors actors in this like high budget porn up and the question was what
00:09:08.200are these actors doing doing here like uh it it threatened the careers of a lot of them it was
00:09:15.180insane ironically helen mirren is the only one who like spoke fondly of the experience but uh
00:09:21.440it was highly highly scandalous and there's always been this massive speculation well what
00:09:28.680was the original cut what was the original version of the film what was the three-hour
00:09:32.640version of the film and this was lost forever like 40 years uh no one had seen the original
00:09:39.940edit of Caligula and around 20s in the 2010s they found all the negatives of the of the film
00:09:50.540all the original unedited hundreds of hours of footage and in 2023 um
00:09:58.540uh a new new director uh producer thomas nick neogovan uh announced a new edit was releasing
00:10:11.520that is the version that we watch as part of part of the uh anarchonomicon film
00:10:18.120since we were watching since we were reading suetonius's lives of the 12th caesars
00:10:23.360and i i was really nervous i'd never seen this edit before i had heard that it had won
00:10:30.260won a prize i can so i knew it was like supposed to be high art high art that is supposed to like
00:10:37.160achieve the original vision but like i'm like well this is like this was like a porno phenomenon
00:10:45.50079 so i'm like yeah we'll watch it but i was like really nervous because this is an early film pop
00:10:51.460and I'm like, ah, this might kill the film pub.
00:10:55.160But tell us what you thought, Antronius.
00:19:40.040But the thing is, when you watch the three-hour version of it, you can see all the work that was put in by these actors and actresses that created these very elaborate characters.
00:19:55.640that um like every character has like this decades long history to them and like
00:20:04.920these effects of like decades of paranoia to them so the original edit like it's it's entirely about
00:20:11.480the sex and decadence of ancient rome like there's something about like madness and paranoia but
00:20:16.760So that's, like, buried in the original.
00:20:19.160It's still there in the other version.
00:20:38.800Yeah, but, like, the original, I, and, like, most other, like, film,
00:20:46.760people who have like seen seen it i've seen like so many horror movies um i remember as a kid like
00:20:53.320going through the list of like top 10 most disturbing films of all time and like watching
00:20:57.960them in order but um but like this one i remember like everyone i know who've seen
00:21:06.200who saw the 70s version like found it funny funny whereas this version like um
00:21:13.480um like it's paranoid it's tense like you have like 10 15 minute sequences where like
00:21:21.180characters are interacting and talking with each other and like no one not even you know whether
00:21:29.220what they're saying is like true or a lie like they don't even know they're saying like there's
00:21:34.300this intense paranoia that like anything they do or say like would result in their death and like
00:21:41.260are they really doing this are they really like doing this out of concern or are they like
00:21:49.000like being just like reptilianly lying because that's the logic of like court politics and like
00:21:56.460their their emotional relationships are actually like life or death political struggles and um
00:22:05.520Like, this is signposted very heavily at the start, where you have the death of John Gilgud's character, who plays Nerva, who was a poor member of Tiberius's entourage.
00:22:24.260She was this jurist in Rome who, um, commits suicide because, because he knows Tiberius doesn't, Tiberius doesn't have long to live, and as soon as Tiberius is dead, Caligula is going to, like, probably have Nerva, like, tortured to death because, because Nerva is, like, a representative of that old regime and a representative of, like, Tiberius, who has done, like, who's, like, destroyed Caligula's life.
00:22:53.280and and like that that scene where um Tiberius tries persuade um persuade John Gilgit Nerva to
00:23:05.460like allow him to to bind his arms so that he won't bleed to death death and Nerva's like refusing
00:23:12.660and and says well as soon as you're dead uh this reptile's going to take take over and Tiberius
00:23:51.120like trying to like hold on to his friends like like oh Kalila you will swear to treat my friends
00:23:58.880well and Kalila like without even like hesitating like just puts on like this perfect mask
00:24:06.520of course I will treat him as the very best I've always respected him
00:24:11.380respected him like just bold-facedly lies lies I'm like everyone everyone in the room knows he's
00:24:19.300lying he knows he's lying tiberius knows he's lying nerva knows he's lying the audience knows
00:24:23.620he's lying but like um but yet yeah the lie and another scene that could have been a painting
00:24:31.500yes exactly and and like that signposted very heavily at the start that it's like no no no
00:24:40.380these this is the world these people live in and they're like a family and related
00:24:46.120but like this is what power has led them to this is what the paranoia and like like the madness of
00:24:53.320capri has has created and um and the thing is as we progress in the film like um all that continues
00:25:03.060but like it becomes more and more subtle like um there are characters who die later in the film
00:25:11.180that like in the back of my mind i'm like wait a minute were they poisoned wait a minute who would
00:25:17.120have the motive to poison them wait a minute this other character who's like mourning and stuff
00:25:24.060and stuff and like seems to be the the friend and like closest person to this like mourning person
00:25:31.260they're the only one who had a motive to like poison that character it's like never touched
00:25:36.620upon in in the film and it's like never revealed but it's there and it's like you know maybe my
00:25:43.960mind just imagines that or maybe it's like wait did anyone actually get poisoned i didn't follow
00:25:50.920that uh uh so like there this is like my mind filling it in but there are a few characters
00:25:59.000who die of like what are supposed to be like disease or natural causes i'm like wait a minute
00:26:04.300Well, if you go back and watch it and, like, pay attention to the characters who die of, like, what are supposed to be natural causes, there's only a few, and then think, what if that was murder? Who would have the motive to do it?
00:26:19.540And it, like, changes the entire scene because the only person who has a motive to do it is, like, the person who's closest to the person mourning them.
00:26:30.060And it's, like, every scene like that is, like, oh, so twisted and paranoid.
00:26:35.440And, like, you get a feel for all these characters just thinking things like that.
00:26:41.740Like, who is the only rival to this one character?
00:30:14.640in like taluses up till like the 18th century that um uh because
00:30:23.520because yeah i remember there wasn't like plumbing in in like most of the era for the time
00:30:32.320rome uh we don't know like how advanced the rituals and stuff around this around this got
00:30:40.800But, like, in several European houses at various stages of history, like, hallways and stuff were treated the way that, like, India, like, certain Indian streets are treated, that, like, it wouldn't be uncommon to, like, encounter something like that.
00:31:09.680And this is alleged, this is, um, something researchers have said, and now, like, a servant would have to come along and clean it up, but, um, but that's something that I've heard, like, um, repeatedly from various sources about, like, the history of manners and whatnot, and I've always been, like, somewhat skeptical of it, but I wouldn't be.
00:31:36.060like um there are a bunch of people who allege that Versailles was like this and I'm like well
00:31:42.840Versailles is a very long period of history this is like from the beginning of the 1700s to like
00:31:48.700you know Versailles has been used for like diplomatic conferences today that um
00:33:20.420So, I imagine there might be an, a strong element of, a strong element of, like, modern, like, leftist scholars trying to, like, ascribe barbarity to, like, ancient Europeans, like, early modern Europeans that weren't there.
00:33:42.540but um ancient Rome Rome like it certainly an emperor again the scene might be read is probably
00:33:55.340meant to be read exactly the way you read it and that might be the proper way to raise like
00:34:00.460Roman Roman customs that I was like a power move on Khalil's part but there is
00:47:51.260but really with Caesar where like the sexual marketplace,
00:47:57.620all the bargaining power is in the hands of these men
00:48:01.200and like half the men and like the men who are like poor desperate and wind up like in slavery
00:48:08.080wind up or like have a debt that like they can't pay and so they're repossessed as part of the
00:48:15.580dead wind up in slavery like their work to death on the states or in in mines and whatnot so you0.85
00:48:21.800have this like massive sink of men in the wars this massive sink of like foreign men and like0.52
00:48:28.580being massacred in this war so these these huge syncs of men within rome who are like going into
00:48:34.300dead and like becoming and like maybe becoming enslaved themselves and then you have this0.91
00:48:40.520massive influx of women just being like sold off and imported from from all these conquered0.81
00:48:46.800territories and then throughout the first century ad that process is has like stopped because there
00:48:58.000aren't any like big wars of conquest occurring for rome like almost all the roman territory
00:49:03.320has been conquered at that point and like the borders are solid and within one like within
00:49:10.860one to choose like as soon as well it doesn't matter what the population numbers are are like
00:49:20.220what the sex ratio is for one generation uh it no matter how many babies you have the next
00:49:27.540generation is going to be 50 50 like it always resets back to 50 50 which um doesn't you know1.00
00:49:36.400doesn't immediately cause problems because there's still this massive influx there's still all all
00:49:43.640these very schemes in the colonies that are bringing people into rome but like and i guess
00:49:50.660had had his conquests and like there were large sinks of romans and um
00:49:55.620and but by the toast tideris and caligula you have this problem where you have all these
00:50:03.100institutions kind of set up under the assumption that there are
00:50:07.900so there are basically infinite women and that like you know tiberius has this isle0.92
00:50:14.500isle of capri where he has like you know he's developing forms of madnesses that like
00:50:21.160that like won't be seen for thousands of years afterwards because like no one has ever had like
00:50:27.040a harem about that size before the epstein's island of ancient times yeah yeah yeah no that's a
00:50:35.880like i've seen the island is like a very very small version of of capri like the only
00:50:44.520the only people who have like the madnesses that like emperor tiberius had are like are like
00:50:52.040extreme extreme porn porn addicts today and the he collected all sorts of nutrients i think
00:51:00.820hermaphrodites like like siamese twins yeah yeah exactly um but any but anyway so you have this0.76
00:51:10.000problem where this entire system set up for like infinite women coming in into rome and like0.93
00:51:16.780like being a roman citizen is basically like a lowly citizen of rome basically has more access0.99
00:51:23.860to women than like like kings in some countries to suddenly it like becoming 50 50 again and all0.92
00:51:32.480the powers swing back back the other way and like women are being becoming relevant to politics1.00
00:51:39.080into politics again and like there's this intense scarcity and so you have
00:51:46.560And basically, you have all these power struggles that, like, are ongoing in Rome until, like, largely until Hadrian wipes out Judea, and then you have kind of a reset.
00:52:05.700And, of course, during that period, you know, you have the power struggles in Rome and, like, the courtly model of Roman politics centered on the emperor solidifies.
00:54:42.460Like, obviously, like, if you're encouraging, like, someone else to sleep with your wife, that doesn't solidify an alliance between the two men that, like, establishes a jealousy and paranoia between the two.
00:55:03.380like like marrying off a daughter yeah like if a guy marries your daughter he's your ally that's
00:55:10.620how like caesar and pompey solidified their lines um pompey married caesar's only daughter so that
00:55:18.380like all of caesar's legitimate grandchildren would be pompey's children
00:55:25.240then of course julia died and like that alliance fell all apart but um like the idea of like
00:55:34.340macro scheme to like solidify an alliance with caligula is like no that's a horrible
00:55:41.520horrible way to solidify an alliance and after after he gets executed i don't think we see the
00:55:48.740wife on screen much more no no no uh caligula gets rid of her because like caligula didn't
00:55:54.480even like the wife uh loyo is doing it to clarify his lines with the macro yeah i love the execution
00:56:03.500by the way i love the ritualization of it um i don't know is spoilers a problem i don't care
00:56:11.200i don't care about spoilers they have like this big machine it's great yeah yeah go ahead
00:56:19.220no they have like this big machine it's not like a machine it's like a moving wall with like these
00:56:26.400these roman murals on it and it below it it's like a like a lawnmower a spinning blade and
00:56:33.220the ones who are supposed to be executed are buried in the sand with only their head head up
00:56:39.080and it's i i i just like the ritualization of the executions you don't see that nowadays nowadays
00:56:46.940is just oh you give him some poison and it's done and it doesn't even work right it's a disgrace
00:56:53.340that is the entire sequence like the entire contraption um i see why they like stole the
00:57:02.080budget in the film back from the director after seeing that because not only that is that like
00:57:07.200insanely expensive and like obscene but also is not historical because of course how do you execute
01:10:33.780now think of like Helen Mirren as this like
01:10:35.840old woman but like she was gorgeous back for the 70s and and if the way every scene is like
01:10:45.440composed and edited and shot sean done it's like it's another world and yet it's maybe
01:10:54.860one of like the most important like reference to like get into your mind if you're trying to
01:11:02.120understand like the ancient world like oh why was it like once you've seen this and and like you
01:11:08.240read the life of Alexander the Great and it's like oh he was paranoid that his like mother and like
01:11:14.980one of the generals was was conspiring something it's like oh that's a weird thing to worry that
01:11:20.540your own mother and general are conspiring against you and then like you see this and it's like oh
01:11:26.240way this is like like these this type of politics it's like paranoid courtly politics this like um
01:11:34.920this intimate interplay between like um personal sexual politics and like matters of the most
01:11:44.660extreme geopolitical levels of state like this model of what politics is of what what statecraft
01:11:55.460is dominated for, for like thousands, maybe 8,000 years longer than the modern, like faking0.85
01:12:06.180gay, um, uh, a parliamentary democracy model where we have like these massive institutions0.89
01:12:15.780that are like constantly being parasitized by, by these endless factions of bureaucrats.0.79
01:12:21.840like that is the anomaly that is the extraordinary anomaly in history um um you know usaid backdoor
01:12:32.180running the world through funding drag queen story hours in serbia serbia uh yes extreme
01:12:39.420Anonymy, this model where, you know, one guy's paranoia or, like, lust affirming the fate of nations, like, this is vastly more of history, and this is, like, what history is.0.57
01:13:02.400And until you, like, until you've seen that depicted in a version like this where, like, you can feel the paranoia, you can feel the longing, you can feel, like, the extreme, like, tragic tension between, like, a person's intimate, personal romantic desires and, like, what will or won't get them killed.
01:13:30.340but until you see that that in like it's most paranoid like a lot of things in history will
01:13:37.720not make sense to you or like will be intensely theoretical in a way that's alien and that's why
01:13:45.760i consider this like like maybe one of the i would do sarah kalia the ultimate cat maybe one of like
01:13:51.900the top 20 top 10 films of all time which is like insane to say when you consider like the original
01:13:58.280cut was like such a failed irrelevant curiosity you know like again when i was a kid the original
01:14:07.640koila was like was like a joke that like someone would like like mention or like you'd only see
01:14:15.120in like very obscure like uh youtube videos like the first time i heard about this was like
01:14:21.040from the cinema snob in like 2009 back even i don't even think it was youtube then i think this
01:14:29.560is like like channel awesome or or something now like like this is something only like horror fans
01:14:38.500and like arthouse movie fans that had heard of it was so obscure whereas now like like have you seen