00:02:36.220And following the results in Germany, I would suggest already this week, you can see Friedrich Merz, the chancellor, trying to belatedly retake some of the political terrain,
00:02:57.220having neglected basically the half of, the 50% of his electorate to his right,
00:03:05.920because he's firmly, let's say, in conventional terms, at the centre.
00:03:10.660Too little, too late. The AfD, I think, is on a roll.
00:03:13.660One of the things, however, important, not just in Germany,
00:03:18.340but right across the European Union, is this concept of national identity and sovereignty.
00:03:31.360Now, let's start off talking a bit about the democratic deficit, as it's known.
00:03:37.320Say a bit about that, about how the European functions, because this is crucially important.
00:03:44.920And we'll, I'll just explain what this democratic deficit is in the European Union.
00:03:51.600We'll then talk about exactly what Frudik Metz is trying to do, along with a number of other member states, which is to pull back down the European Union's budget for the seven-year projection, which they're working on.
00:04:05.720And I think that, you know, I don't think that the timing of this is coincidental.
00:04:10.120He's sort of pushing this in the very days after his humiliating defeat at the hands of the AFD.
00:04:18.920First of all, just say a little bit, if you wouldn't mind, about exactly what is the democratic deficit as far as the European Union is concerned.
00:04:28.320Okay, thank you. Thank you, Ben, and hello, everyone.
00:04:31.560I think that we really need to get an idea of what Europe looks like, you know, what the European Union is.
00:04:38.540If you live in Europe, you hear incessantly how Europe defends democratic values, how what really needs to be done in order to save Europeans, but also to represent, you know, an example for the world is to have a stronger European Union.
00:04:55.280And what people know who have followed Europe or lived here for a long time is that the process of building the European Union has been very undemocratic, democratic deficit.
00:05:08.700And the key point is the 1990s, 1992, when basically you have what's called the Maastricht Treaty.
00:05:15.500This is a treaty, one of the foundational treaties for Europe today, which shifts from what was before called the European communities to the European Union.
00:05:26.580Before, communities meant that there were a bunch of states, nation states, which got together and they collaborated on things.
00:05:31.480They cooperated. They set up various economic treaties for allowing for a common market in
00:05:37.560areas like energy, and then in movement of people. So there were countries, but there were still
00:05:42.220governments which would make decisions, and they worked together. These were the European communities.
00:05:48.040In starting the 90s, you had the move towards the European Union. They said, okay, now we're going
00:05:52.080to move essentially towards a super state. And the key point was, we're going to take away your
00:05:57.380economic sovereignty. This is what these treaties say. These treaties say that the European
00:06:01.940EU, it's a bureaucracy, it's not much elected. There are some elected officials, but we can
00:06:07.280talk more about that, that they get to decide and we're going to set economic policy at the
00:06:13.320European level, especially budget policy. And then all the countries are going to have to go along
00:06:17.460with this. That's absolutely correct. I mean, even to this day, the European Parliament doesn't
00:06:27.040have initiation rights when it comes to legislation. It can amend legislation.
00:06:34.060But I don't think even today it's able to propose it in and of itself. And part of the
00:06:40.500reason is that we have this, ironically enough, that we have this democratic deficit, that
00:06:45.720you have this European Commission, this Europolit Bureau that is totally unelected, that has
00:06:53.300the driving force in the production of the directives and what have you. And you have the
00:06:59.240European Parliament. You also have the third institution, the third plank of the European
00:07:03.400institutions, which is the European Council. And ironically enough, it's member states themselves
00:07:09.280that both wanted a centrally coordinating role for the European Union to move forward with the
00:07:16.520federalizing agenda. They wanted the European Parliament, which was the fig leaf and the
00:07:20.960democratic element, but they very jealously have guarded their own prerogatives via the
00:07:28.620European Council, which is the council that has, as I say, it's a third part of the third
00:07:33.620institution, where the heads of government or the respective ministers will sit together and work
00:07:40.460out and coordinate policy. And really, the European Council has never wanted to cede
00:07:46.180its prerogatives to the European Commission.
00:07:50.160So you have, or especially to the European Parliament,
00:07:53.480so you have this situation where you have the European Commission,
00:07:56.740which is the driving force, the driving political force
00:08:01.280in the European Union, headed by Ursula von der Leyen,
00:08:09.240No member of the public voted for her.
00:08:11.640No member of the public voted for any of the commissioners
00:08:15.320which are delegated by the, appointed by the, nominated by the member states themselves and approved by the European Parliament.
00:08:26.080So that's why we have, that's why we have this democratic deficit.
00:08:30.220And it's fundamentally important because part of the consequences of that is that the European Commission is insulated from popular, from the popular will, right?
00:08:44.520And after a number of years, that's created a fundamental dislocation between what people want, and we'll discuss this a little later with you, Andrew, and what the motivations behind the European Commission itself wants.
00:08:59.860I'll give away on this point, but I want to throw this back to you now, because now you've explained how we have this democratic deficit following 1992, which is really the dividing point in the development of the then EEC, the European Economic Community, into the European Union when it assumed itself.
00:09:23.420It fully took the essence of itself as being EU law was being now sovereign over that of the member states themselves.
00:09:33.600That was really formalized. I mean, we'd had some judgments from the European Court of Justice that had indicated that.
00:09:38.660But it's really that after the post-Maastricht Treaty and the biggest change across the European Union,
00:09:44.500I think the Maastricht Treaty had was in the UK and the civil war in the British Conservative Party.
00:09:52.760Because let's not forget that the development of the European Union, the single market,
00:09:58.520was driven very strongly by Margaret Thatcher, who then, just a year or two after she left power,
00:10:06.580became the most important opponent of European integration post Maastricht,
00:10:13.880saying that she never intended Britain to lose its sovereignty.
00:10:18.360And that then, of course, led fundamentally, it took sort of 15 or so years,
00:10:22.600excuse me, 20 or so years for that to work itself through,
00:10:26.160but it fundamentally resulted in Brexit.
00:10:29.500So let's bring that back now to discuss exactly what's happening in Germany,
00:10:34.780what happened in Germany with this landmark election out in Saxony-Anhalt
00:10:39.920in the eastern state um and the afd there they got i don't think any party had got 44 percent
00:10:49.080as high as that since the second world war an astonishing result tie tie this in tie this in
00:10:54.780if you wouldn't mind andrew with with um tie that result in with germany and with friedrich
00:10:59.840coming along now saying this week that he and a number of other member states are going to oppose
00:11:06.000the European Commission's pitch to increase its budget by 60% from the seven-year period starting
00:11:14.620from 2020. Is this the belated attempt where member states sort of fight back against the
00:11:21.240European Union because the member states themselves are very aware that they are
00:11:26.340losing democratic legitimacy? Well, I think there's a long path to get to this. I'll try
00:11:33.380to do it quickly. It's important to remember that the Maastricht Treaty was only voted on by
00:11:37.320three countries. This is a big part of the democratic deficit, is that the construction
00:11:41.260of this European bureaucracy was generally not democratic at all. It was approved by
00:11:47.780parliaments, often without a public debate. So there was not, the goal was we're going to create
00:11:54.320a new, we're going to cede our sovereignty. We're going to cede our sovereignty, at least in some
00:11:58.120areas. Now, as you pointed out, there's the European Council and states have been very
00:12:02.380careful not to see at all their sovereignty. But you created this situation where we're going to
00:12:07.720decide centrally what the basic economic policy is going to be. And it's very important to realize
00:12:13.320that this was based on globalization. This was based on the idea of the common market. And we're
00:12:20.200not going to let single countries be sovereign and make their own decisions. This is very important.
00:12:25.480It pertained to Germany, it pertained to Italy, it pertained to various countries. We don't want
00:12:29.120countries going off on their own and having economic relationships wherever they want,
00:12:34.440having state intervention, having industrial policy. The treaties are written very clearly
00:12:39.560to avoid any sort of public direction of economic policy. So this takes away sovereignty
00:12:47.000from your government. So when you have, in various countries, you have a crisis, you have people
00:12:52.600have difficulty, you need to deal with the needs of your population, the government technically
00:12:58.020can't do it. They have to go ask for permission from Brussels. And this is a huge thing. It
00:13:04.420happened, we saw it in the crisis, you know, the so-called Euro crisis 10, 13, 14 years ago.
00:13:10.280You have to go ask for permission. In Italy, it still happens all the time. You have to negotiate
00:13:13.880on your budget. And in Germany, there was a great deal of opposition from various groups in Germany
00:13:22.100saying we cannot give up sovereignty over our currency, over our economic policy. Now, Germany
00:13:28.480did a couple things. One, they had some years where the economy seemed to be doing very well,
00:13:33.460so it seemed like they were getting over it. But they had many areas in Germany which had
00:13:38.120been cannibalized, their economy, especially in the eastern part after reunification in the early
00:13:43.10090s. And then they cut social spending, they cut wages internally in Germany, as they did in many
00:13:50.640other countries. This was the European policy. We're going to keep costs down inside Europe.
00:13:56.820Salaries, pensions, social policy. That way we can make more money exporting. So if you're wondering
00:14:03.340why some people in the U.S. are saying, well, gee, Europe's been taking advantage of us. Well,
00:14:08.060sure, bad decisions were made in the U.S., but it's true that Europe's policy has been,
00:14:12.780has been, okay, we're going to make money, right, by depressing basically the labor force inside
00:14:18.260to Europe and also bringing in cheap labor. That's another aspect of it, immigration, right? So we
00:14:23.200can sell to others. So here you have Germany now, which is in a serious economic crisis, right? And
00:14:30.160especially because it helped, it hoped that it could run the world by its automobile sales,
00:14:37.100especially in China. That's not working out because China's now making a lot of cars, right?
00:14:41.760Germany really counted on the auto industry.
00:14:47.120And so you have situations, parts of Germany and various parts of German society, which want a better economic policy.
00:14:55.000And you're not allowed to do that technically in Europe under the European rules.
00:15:00.940And so people are saying in the population, we need education, economic well-being, basic services for the population.
00:15:11.660Those were the top issues in the election for people.
00:15:15.620And the European Union is seen as the problem here.
00:15:19.640It's seen as the problem that set up a policy which takes away sovereignty from national governments, which are no longer able to respond to their people's needs.
00:15:27.660we're just going to dig in in a couple of moments over to over into what's exactly happening here
00:15:34.400in the european union with regards to the popular incredibly interesting poll conducted that shows
00:15:42.020exactly where people are with regards to european integration we'll dig that down in a couple of
00:15:46.520moments but first let me let me just come back to you and ask you this um do you see because it's
00:15:52.780important what germany's not malta right it's um it's uh it's it is the economic and political
00:16:01.940powerhouse of the the european union when you see friedrich metz the chancellor leading the battle
00:16:09.340amongst certain member states for example germany denmark the netherlands austria finland
00:16:16.500Sweden. But Germany is leading them here when they're combating the commission's pitch to
00:16:24.420increase its budget by 60% to 2 trillion euros for the 2028 to 2034 seven-year period. When you
00:16:37.700see germany doing this do you think that this massive vibe shift on behalf of the european
00:16:47.400union's most powerful member state as a consequence of the growth of support for the afd
00:16:56.020i certainly think that's a response uh you're seeing from the german from the german government
00:17:02.680no question about that. Because Germany has, and it's one of the countries which has been very
00:17:08.800careful about, you know, where there's been this big debate always of, we don't need to give up
00:17:14.840too much of our power, of our economic power or economic strength. And there's some confusion
00:17:20.300there because the Germans for years, the Germans and the French said, oh, we're helping out all the
00:17:25.000poor countries. We're giving money to Greece. We're giving money to Italy and to Spain by bailing
00:17:30.040these countries out. This was 2010, 11, 12, when in reality, the European Union was giving money
00:17:35.400to those countries to pay back to German banks, German and French banks. They were actually
00:17:39.920helping themselves. But I do think this is a response to this situation. And I think it's
00:17:47.360important to realize that most people, obviously, your normal population, people who go to vote,
00:17:53.720the great majority, they don't know the details of the European budget. They're not particularly
00:17:57.640interested in that. The European Commission doesn't really care about explaining it,
00:18:03.140explaining the details of this budget to everybody. What it is, is, okay, we have issues,
00:18:08.280we have problems, economic problems, which we have not, you know, which have not been dealt
00:18:13.380with effectively over the years. Things are getting worse in Germany right now. And the
00:18:17.320example of these problems for us is Europe, is the European Union. You know, Europe, as many people
00:18:22.660around here say. It's the European Union. So any idea that we're going to reduce our voice,
00:18:30.820our role, means that that's not what we want. And it's important to, there's this principle
00:18:37.780that people used to talk about in Europe, especially Christian Democrat parties, which
00:18:43.000is still a large party, that's Merz's party. Let's talk about subsidiarity, that decisions
00:18:47.820should be made as much as possible close to the people. In Europe, they're doing the exact opposite.
00:18:52.080We're going to make decisions as far away from the people as possible at a centralized level because we know what's good for you, even if, gee, you can't see it.
00:19:00.420You can't see what's good for you, but we know.
00:19:03.540Andrew, we could spend the whole show talking about that thing.
00:19:06.140You and I both live here in Italy, and it's not just the fact that the political class, from the election of the president of the republic himself, that is not a popular vote.
00:19:16.400onward. It's not just the political class, the continental way of doing politics, let me put it
00:19:21.900like that, of which Italy is a prime example. It isn't just the case that the political class
00:19:27.000is removed from the people. And this point will strike you as an American living here in Italy.
00:19:34.000It's that the people are complicit in that themselves. You've probably had the same
00:19:39.880conversation that I've had. Everyone bemoans the corruption of the judiciary. Try persuading them
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00:22:55.980All right, very quickly back now to Andrew Spannis.
00:22:58.520um andrew i've seen this poll which has been pushed out quite heavily um in the mainstream
00:23:07.700media including the guardian which um says 68 percent of respondents um are talking in terms
00:23:19.700of a general deterioration or loss of normality compared to just 12 percent who say they view the
00:23:27.580present present moment as a time of european awakening and renewal nobody this is a fundamental
00:23:33.640difference now um nobody is looking very very few only the ideologues only the the pro-european
00:23:40.700fanatics now are looking to the european commission um as we move forward um
00:23:49.020here's another statistic 74 said europe was not dealing well with the issues that face
00:23:56.140the young people's 56% said they believe that the Europe's very future was in danger what just in
00:24:05.200the closing minute and a half what are you drawing from these results as far as the European Union
00:24:12.140goes and how does that impact on the United States well I think there can be something useful
00:24:18.780if we look at these numbers you know and talk about them because but the basically the the
00:24:24.540approach here in the past year and a half has been Donald Trump came back into the presidency
00:24:28.700and he's creating chaos. He's being against Europe. So we need to get together and we need
00:24:36.260to defend ourselves. We're going to be the great defenders of principles and democracy here in
00:24:40.780Europe in opposition to Trump. And I think this is a very bad idea. Not because you have to agree
00:24:47.180with Trump on everything. He does a lot of things I don't agree with. But Europe is not recognizing
00:24:53.120its own problems. And a lot of things that J.D. Vance pointed out in Munich last year,
00:24:59.560a lot of these things are real problems Europe has with democracy, obviously with immigration
00:25:06.500also, but with industrial policy, in my view. Europe has a lot of road to travel to recognize
00:25:16.820what's going on in the real world in terms of industrial policy, real power competition. That
00:25:20.720is actually working in your national interest and not based on the rules, the rules of globalization,
00:25:27.060which allow various interests, private interests, to decide where your country is going to go and
00:25:34.820ignore popular sovereignty. So I think this is a moment where people, yes, there are lots of
00:25:41.680problems in the world and we need to deal with them, but you need to deal with them by actually
00:25:45.260thinking about what are the interests of your country? And you can work together with other
00:25:50.080countries that's fine but that's not a bunch of bureaucrats who set out 30 years ago and said we
00:25:54.340know what's best for you and you're going to do it our way and sometimes that means cutting your
00:25:58.380you know cutting your your your pensions cutting your your welfare cutting your investments in
00:26:02.880you know in whatever in basic infrastructure that's not the that's not good for people so
00:26:09.140there's that'd be a much better much better way to go i absolutely agree with you uh and i think
00:26:14.400vice president vance was absolutely correct at what he said in munich but i don't think people
00:26:18.920all listening look where do people go i know i want to flag up your book original sins globalization
00:26:23.580populism and the six contradictions facing the european union where do people go on there it is
00:26:29.540that's the go on amazon if they want to look into that on social media you're on instagram right
00:26:35.980rather than twitter where do people go if they want to give you a check out on your profile
00:26:41.180both instagram and and x you know twitter and you can find it andrew spanish is just my
00:26:47.240you'll find me that way uh articles in english on there's a website named pluralia so you can find
00:26:55.060them there and respond is very great very grateful for you coming on the show i hope to get you back
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00:32:17.200oh, our worst fears have come true on all the rest.
00:32:21.700They should have watched The War Room last week. It was all there. Colin laid it all out for you. What did he say? He said that the AFD were going to get about 44%. That's exactly what happened. The AFD got 44% in Saxony and Hull.
00:35:16.020Um, he was already on the defensive yesterday in the Bundestag.
00:35:20.100They had their first session, uh, after the, the summer recess and, and AFD leader Alice
00:35:25.440Vidal was really chomping at the bit to go after Mertz, and Mertz really had no response.
00:35:32.900People are already speculating when the next election comes down in two weeks on the 20th
00:35:37.300in the also East German state of Mecklenburg, Western Pomerania, which is up by the Baltic
00:35:42.940Sea there, if the CDU does as poorly as the polls are showing now, they have them down
00:35:50.080at like 6%, then it could be the end of the Mertz government.
00:35:56.140And before that happens, I mean, so I guess you're going to be one of the people that doesn't think the present government is going to be able to make it to the end of term.
00:36:05.520But in the meantime, before the next elections and the inevitable happens, in the meantime, what will happen to the AFD specifically with regards to the firewall?
00:36:17.500Are the other parties, the establishment parties, going to start working with it in coalitions?
00:36:25.440um, at, at, at state level. Well, there's, there's still, they're still trying to keep their,
00:36:31.660their firewall intact. Um, but, but like I say, this is the first chink in that wall. We've seen1.00
00:36:37.040this leftist party called the, uh, Sarah Wagenknecht Union, uh, founded around a, uh, a former member
00:36:44.200of the East German Communist Party. Um, Sarah Wagenknecht, uh, say they are willing to enter
00:36:50.440into negotiations with the AFD and Saxony Anhalt because they, they just barely missed, uh,
00:36:55.420threshold for an absolute majority in Saxony-Anhalt, also due to mail-in ballots. We can talk about
00:37:01.760that a little bit as well. But the AFD has 39 seats, and they need 41. And the Bundes-Sauer-Wagenknecht
00:37:09.900has five seats, and they may be willing to enter in some sort of coalition or toleration or whatever
00:37:17.380you want to call it. We'll see where that goes. I think the AFD would prefer a conservative
00:37:23.480partners, such as rogue delegates of the Christian Democrats, of the Rhino Party,
00:37:31.520but they won't be coming out publicly anytime soon, probably.
00:37:36.620I'm going to ask you about Sarah Wagenknecht in a moment, but right now, I just want to
00:37:43.260just, if I can hold you on this point about the firewall, because it's important. It's important
00:37:49.840with regards to the strategy of containment
00:37:54.240with regards to the established parties vis-a-vis the AFD.
00:37:59.240Because there's another school of thought that says
00:38:01.640if you actually really want to reduce the AFD's popularity somewhat,
00:38:07.960let's get them constrained by the realities of power.
00:40:04.300Alice Weidel made a very good point in her speech yesterday, her firebrand speech, calling
00:40:09.900out Friedrich Meritz and just making him look in absolute shambles.
00:40:13.460And she said, you and the Christian Democrats, you look around left and right in your parliamentary
00:40:17.860seats, and next time there's an election, half of you will be gone.
00:40:21.960You will all lose your jobs, or half of you will.
00:40:24.520So the person sitting next to you or you will not have a limousine, will not be earning 15,000 euros a month anymore, and you've got to think about where you're going with this.
00:40:34.040So when you can present arguments like that, which really affects people's pocketbooks, politicians' pocketbooks, their future, their economic future, the safety of their families, they're going to start thinking twice about this firewall thing, because it would be very easy to institute sensible conservative policies in Germany.
00:40:53.100You know, stop destroying the economy. Stop the climate madness. Stop the open borders. Stop supporting Hamas and Hezbollah and terrorists, you know, funding the Muslim Brotherhood. These are all very easy things to do, like Donald Trump has shown, you know, helping the economy and helping business is not that hard. You just have to do away with the socialist madness.
00:41:13.840this is really the point colin because as ashen face as all these guys are as paranoid and
00:41:23.080terrified of losing their seats as they are they could turn it around i'm not going to come here0.85
00:41:29.200on the war room and tell them what they need to do that it's pretty obvious if you follow the0.99
00:41:33.440they need to stop the invasion and start returning those people who've broken illegally into germany
00:41:41.560who are living in Germany at taxpayer expense,0.99
00:41:44.660who are responsible for the huge explosion in crime0.86
00:41:48.800and sexual crime against women and children.
00:41:51.680The government started sending those people back.
00:41:56.160The support for the AFD would implode from one day to the next.
00:42:01.400But, you know, I obviously support the AFD.
00:42:07.220So I can say this quite comfortably, it's not going to happen.
00:42:10.820And Friedrich Merz isn't going to do that.
00:42:13.180He's going to continue to obstruct the will of the German people
00:42:16.620until the day that they're all wiped out,
00:42:20.180their seats are all transferred from the establishment,
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00:50:52.700And look, I'm a free market capitalist with quite strong libertarian leanings.
00:50:58.740There's a huge swathe within the populist nationalist movements around the world.
00:51:04.840However, there isn't that enamored by free market capitalism and is quite open to socialism, especially when it's non-ideological socialism and it's just trying to get a better deal for the ordinary working guy.
00:51:21.300I would put in that camp, by the way, Marine Le Pen.
00:51:25.640I think there's a very strong overlap, for example, with her on those things.
00:51:29.960But, you know, we'll keep our eyes focused.
00:51:31.840Colin McMahon, you are in Germany the number one American I go to to get a reading on these things.
00:51:39.540If folks want to check you out on social media to keep abreast with your analysis, where do they go?
00:51:45.760i'm on x of colin fr for francis colin fr mcmahon
00:51:51.360brilliant um thanks colin i hope we'll get you back
00:51:56.340um again in uh soon to help uh unravel for us the the coalition talks that are taking place
00:52:06.840in saxony and heart right now my thanks to liz and wendell at will america's voice and
00:52:12.980Vittorio Santifranco for doing this show together.
00:52:16.320If you're 65 or already on Medicare, listen up, folks, and grab a pen.
00:53:32.420Now, listen, in the first couple of days of the launch of this company with the Warren Posse, Posse members saved tens and up to hundreds of thousands collectively of dollars in these fees.
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