00:04:11.300There is very little disagreement on behalf of the 27 member states, 27 countries in the European Union now that European Union law takes precedence over member states law, own law, national law, passed on their own parliaments, where there is a conflict between the two.
00:04:34.140As Olivier has stated, however, on this show, there is a jurisprudence which says European law is not sovereign over member states' own constitutions.
00:04:45.140And when I say that's not just Poland putting its hand up at the back of the room saying, hang on a bit. Germany, I would suggest, in addition to Poland, has been the most forthright in insisting on that principle.
00:04:57.940Because, of course, looking back to the 20th century, Germany, the modern state, is very protective over what it calls its basic law, which is its de facto constitution.
00:05:12.940And so we had, quite recently, a judgment from the European Union Court of Justice to do with Poland's own judiciary.
00:05:27.940and the jurisdiction of Poland's judges, right?
00:05:31.940And that happens all the time across the European Union.
00:05:35.940What is particular about this case is that Poland fought back.
00:05:40.940They fought back and Poland's own constitutional court said,
00:05:45.940hang on a minute, hang on a minute, to the European Union Court of Justice.
00:05:52.940Poland never ceded this authority, this responsibility, these powers to the European Union.
00:06:01.940And therefore, the European Union has no jurisdiction on this matter.
00:06:06.940And because this is Poland's constitutional court, there's no Supreme Court above that that can overturn that.
00:06:14.520So, Olivia, I'm going to hand the microphone over to you on this.
00:06:18.460In one way, this is incredibly complicated.
00:06:20.860And yet in another way, it's incredibly simple. And the conflict here, now you can correct me if I'm wrong on this because I'm not a lawyer. But you correct me if I'm wrong, though I have spent a number of years and a heck of a lot of money fighting cases here in Italy. Normally, but not exclusively as the defendant.
00:06:41.940Correct me if I'm wrong on this reading, Olivier. It seems to me to be the case that there is when Poland says, when the Polish constitutional court says, this is our constitution and that no Polish government can cede powers outside of that constitution to the European Union.
00:07:01.440And therefore, we will defend integrity over what powers have legitimately been handed to Brussels and which powers have not.
00:07:10.760The European Union Court of Justice, on the other hand, in Luxembourg, claims the right to be the sole arbiter of the jurisdiction of the European Union, whether powers have been devolved to the European Union or not.
00:07:27.120There is a conflict here between these two jurisdictions, between the member state and the European Union, and there is no legal body, as I see it in the present case, and this is why the present case is so important, potentially revolutionary as well.
00:07:43.200There is no arbiter to arbitrate between these two jurisdictions.
00:08:21.380It's not a nation, unlike the United States.
00:08:25.280So it's an international organization.
00:08:28.200And in the treaties, the sovereign states, which are members of the European Union, have ceded some powers to the European Union, to the European Union's institutions.
00:08:40.200So, and I will add that the European Court of Justice has jurisdiction over EU law, over
00:08:50.960European Union law, and it is actually a political body, it's not a real court, because its members
00:13:19.780and very much the Americans might see this as the equivalent of America first,
00:13:25.860Poland first in the Polish political context.
00:13:28.780The prime minister, the government, however, is vociferously against everything that Donald Trump is trying to do in America,
00:13:37.400but also vociferously against those same ideals transposing themselves to the Polish political context.
00:13:46.820As Americans are looking at this, how would you frame the present debate on which that you've just been analyzing and explaining as interest to Americans?
00:14:03.040Explain this to Americans in their own terms. What is at stake here in Poland?
00:14:09.220So what is at stake in Poland is the creation of a European super-state, which as you very0.82
00:14:16.500well described, it would be very undemocratic because it's done in a very undemocratic way.
00:14:21.540To give you an example in this conflict between the Constitutional Tribunal of Poland and the
00:14:29.220Court of Justice of the EU, where the Constitutional Tribunal of Poland for
00:14:33.380the second or third time now, has stated that the EU law and its interpretation by the Court
00:14:43.540of Justice is not above the Polish constitution. You have this government of Donald Tusk, who is
00:14:50.180supported by Brussels, including financially, who has stopped publishing and
00:14:57.860and complying with the rulings of the Constitutional Tribunal of Poland. They stopped in early 2024
00:15:10.900and we now have in Poland over 100 rulings of the Constitutional Tribunal which haven't been
00:15:17.940published and are not complied with by the government. So it's a state of
00:15:26.100total violation of the rule of law with the support of the European Union for the purpose
00:15:32.020of creating a European super state. So the stake for Americans, I mean, I think you described it
00:15:39.140very well. It's of losing its allies in Europe in the form of democratic European nations. I mean,
00:15:48.420if you have a super state which is created by means which are totally undemocratic,
00:15:56.340you're going to have a dictatorship, a big dictatorship in Europe.
00:16:01.700Olivier, I'm going to come back to you in just a moment and ask you to break down
00:16:06.180And what the implicate, how is this going to be resolved, right, firstly, and how you see these fight, this fight, this issue being supported by other member states in the European Union?
00:16:20.480Because what's taking place in Poland right now has implications right across the European Union.
00:16:27.860And I would frame it somewhat like this.
00:16:30.020The slavery issue aside, the issue of states' rights in America
00:16:34.820in the run-up to the Civil War was the issue I think
00:16:40.940that half of Americans in the Confederacy brought into.
00:16:45.940The slavery issue directly aside, it was whether states fundamentally
00:16:51.260are the sovereign entity for Americans or whether it was the Union itself.
00:16:56.840And this issue is now working itself out in the Open Union.
00:17:01.380And this issue here that Ordo Joris brought before the Polish Constitutional Court could not be more consequential.
00:17:13.220Olivia, I'm going to come back to you in just a moment.
00:17:15.180But I must give a quick shout out to our show's sponsor right now, Birch Gold.
00:17:20.100But we've been speaking over recent editions of the war room over the possibility that the Fed might raise interest rates.
00:17:27.400And in fact, they did do that yesterday, a quarter point rise.
00:17:32.480And the consequence of this for Americans, given that one point two trillion dollars are spent by American taxpayers every year,
00:17:42.600simply financing the national debt of 40 trillion.
00:17:46.840The consequences of this, this interest rate right, is that as existing debt matures, that debt must be refinanced and the Treasury, when it issues additional debt to cover continuing deficits, is now going to have to do that at a more expensive basis.
00:21:53.340And in Germany, well, you have right now a government which is in favor of creating this
00:22:00.540European super state and which is not very democratic.
00:22:05.140I mean, listen to the reactions to the victory of the AFD in Saxony-Anhalt.
00:22:11.480And in France, you have Emmanuel Macron still until next year,
00:22:16.260who is also, again, in favor of creating a super state.
00:22:21.060And in Brussels, they are negotiating a new budget for 2028 to 2034,
00:22:29.540where you would have for all the EU funds rule of law conditionality mechanism
00:22:37.080which will allow the European Commission to blackmail a member state, any member state.
00:22:43.340And they're trying to have this adopted before the end of the year
00:22:46.880because in April and May you will have the two rounds of the French election.
00:22:51.660We could very well be won by Marine Le Pen
00:22:54.980and that would be the end of this dream of a non-democratic European super-state governed by judges.
00:23:07.440Just stop right there, Olivier. Tell me exactly what you mean by that.
00:23:11.240If Marine Le Pen, I think next April, if she wins the French presidential elections,0.62
00:23:16.680You're making the claim that that will bring about the end of the European super state governed via the judicial activism of unelected judges.
00:23:28.140Break that down for me. Tell me why that's the case.
00:23:31.420That's very likely, yes, because France is a net contributor to the EU budget.
00:23:38.460So any financial blackmail will be ineffective because France will always be able to withhold
00:23:46.280more funds than the European Union, and it will come out as having benefited from this
00:24:28.780I'm just going to ask you about the Germany situation.
00:24:31.520And if the AFD win the next elections in Germany, that's going to support the thesis that you're building along the lines of Marine Le Pen representing a fundamental change, right?
00:24:45.940Yes, I don't think the AFD will win the election in Germany so much more.
00:24:51.380I mean, at the national level, they can, they're almost winning, or maybe they already, they already are going to govern in one land, which is a kind of a revolution in Germany, but they are very far away from winning the election at the national level, even though they are the first party in terms of votes.
00:25:12.940But in France, it's very likely, if you could look at all opinion polls, that's the most likely country where this evolution of the last decades of the European Union is going to stop.
00:25:26.940And it's not a coincidence, it's because France is probably in the deepest crisis of its identity, of immigration, of security of all the European member states.
00:25:40.940member states. So for the French, it's now an existential struggle for existence. And I think
00:25:48.620this is where it's going to happen. And I don't think this, just because I'm French myself,
00:25:54.300but if you look at opinion polls, that's where it's most likely. But the EU is going to defend
00:26:02.380itself. You have the DSA. I think I mentioned it last time on your program. The DSA, that's
00:26:08.220the digital services act and this is an instrument to impose the narrative of the governing class
00:26:19.420on the internet in social media and you have new instruments being prepared before the french
00:26:26.380election stay with us folks we're back with Olivier Bow in just a couple of moments the polls
00:26:35.820saved christendom back in 1683 under jan chichi sobievsky lifting the siege of vienna and it might
00:26:43.820well be that poland is about to save christendom at least the european part of christendom again
00:26:51.100in 2026 back in two minutes after this short commercial break with a commercial break with
00:27:00.860you don't wait until your house is on fire to install a smoke detector and you don't
00:27:05.260Don't wait until the wind and rain hammer your windows and the power goes out to prepare for a hurricane.
00:27:12.440And you don't reach for your seatbelt after the impact because after the crash, the hurricane or the house fire, it's too late.
00:27:21.000Similarly, you don't wait until the dollar goes to zero before you buy gold.
00:33:12.240And the pro-choice lobby, which is fundamentally a population-controlled organization, has tried to get its teeth into Poland as well.
00:33:26.660A bit more difficult in Poland for various reasons, one of which is the huge affinity that John Paul II is still held in across Polish society.
00:33:39.640And of course, John Paul II was incredibly pro-life.
00:33:44.300So tell us, if you wouldn't mind, Olivier, there in Poland, the consequences of this decision in Wadowice.
00:33:54.860Vadovice was the city where Pope John Paul II came from, and Katowice is a bigger city,
00:34:01.740not very far from Vadovice, but it's a different city. So yeah, it's one of many cases we've had
00:34:10.380with these activists from the pro-right-to-life organization. That's their modus operandi,
00:34:16.860they show the pictures of aborted children, real pictures, they are not fake pictures,
00:34:25.660so it's pretty brutal. And they show them in public spaces, in public places, so some people
00:34:33.740may not want to see those pictures, but it's a big fight about the right to freedom of expression,
00:34:41.900to the freedom of protest and what we want to avoid as an organization as the Ordo-Juris
00:34:49.740Institute with our lawyers because we have a litigation department with lawyers who fight in
00:34:56.220courts to defend what we believe in. We want to avoid the situation there is in Western Europe
00:35:03.340with these areas around abortion clinics where people can't even pray. I mean in the UK you
00:35:11.340can get arrested if you pray in too close to an abortion clinic, even if you do it silently.
00:35:20.380So that's what we're fighting for. Until recently, the case law in Poland was very much in favor of0.60
00:35:27.500this freedom of expression and we would win almost all the cases or maybe even all the cases. But
00:35:36.060In the last year, in the last two years, there have been two rulings by the Supreme Court
00:35:43.900that goes against this established case law and then we've had one case which we lost on appeal.
00:35:56.220Exactly this kind of case and then we won those two cases in Katowice and Biawe stock.
00:36:04.620so the case law in Poland is kind of fluctuating now. You have also for an American audience to
00:36:12.060understand that the law in Poland is not common law, so the courts are not bound by previous
00:36:21.820sentences, by previous rulings like in the UK or the US. It's a different system, so it's a fight.
00:36:29.180We have to keep fighting to maintain the rulings, to maintain them in favor of the freedom of expression and the freedom to show, as you said, the reality of what abortion really is.
00:36:46.620Again, just for thank you for making that point as well for our US audience here in continental Europe.
00:36:54.460And it's exactly the same here in Italy, by the way.
00:37:13.760Here in continental Europe, it's not so judge can interpret one case
00:37:19.040on one set of facts in one way and the same set of facts
00:37:22.400another judge can interpret it in totally the different direction judges have a far greater
00:37:28.520degree of discretion um when deciding cases and in fact you it's very you don't know which way
00:37:36.100the case is going to go because there are very few jury trials here um apart from the serious
00:37:42.440criminal cases uh judges um in addition to having a free hand as to how they determine cases they're
00:37:48.480not bound by joys really in any way. And that illustrates, I think, a little bit of the horror
00:37:55.260of the situation that we're in in continental Europe. Anyway, I very strongly happen to believe
00:38:03.600that the Anglo-American Australian system is vastly superior. Okay, so just quickly tell me
00:38:12.300on this issue, because this is something that our audience is interested in and does follow,
00:38:17.580So in this case, in this court case, did you get any support whatsoever from the institutional Catholic Church in Poland?
00:38:28.620Well, generally speaking, the Catholic Church is very much against abortion, and it says so loud.
00:38:35.920And it has played a very big role in the right to life being at a much better level in Poland than in any other European country.
00:38:46.780On this specific case, no, I don't think so, but those cases are not publicized at a very
00:38:56.380high level. I mean, they're so frequent that the media don't write too much about them.
00:39:02.700It's really an everyday battle in the courts. So, I wouldn't expect even the Catholic Church
00:39:10.540to take a stance on these specific cases. And you also have to understand that even in the pro-life
00:39:22.220community, not everybody approves of this modus operandi, of this way of fighting for life by
00:39:33.180showing quite drastic pictures in public. I mean, personally, I wouldn't want my children to see
00:39:41.380them, but still, what's at stake here is freedom of expression. So that's why we defend them
00:39:49.680systematically as Ordo Uris. You're absolutely right, by the way, to make that point, that
00:39:55.780the showing of these images is not universally supported in the pro-life movement. I very
00:40:02.580strongly and support the right of showing those photos because you know going back to the second
00:40:10.980world war many people in um in america in the uk um that is supporting the war but outside of
00:40:20.420continental europe uh were impressed on after the war of the horrors of what had taken place in
00:40:26.500nazi germany but also the horrors of what had taken what has taken place as well in communist
00:40:32.980the former soviet union because they saw the photos those photos of the horrors of the mass
00:40:38.580starvations and what have you they imprinted themselves on on the western um consciousness
00:40:45.700consciousness again reinforcing the the issue here that humanity um it was was being trodden on and
00:40:53.700i would suggest it's exactly the same thing on the pro-life front so to give the other side of
00:40:59.460the argument some people believe that the showing of these images um is too extremist excuse me
00:41:09.140i thought i was going to sneeze one moment is too extremist and therefore can be um counterproductive
00:41:14.260and put people off i don't have that view but i do i do respect people for that and obviously
00:41:21.860Olivia, I can give a nod of respect to your writer as a father to say that you don't want your children to see it because these images are extremely disturbing.
00:41:34.500All right, look, time for a second shout out to our sponsor.
00:41:37.940Then we'll be back with for the final segment of the show with Olivier Beau, director of communications at the Ordo Joris Institute.
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00:44:09.660back now to olivier look you did just happen to mention in in the previous part when you were
00:44:16.460talking that this case was quite low profile so therefore you wouldn't expect the catholic church
00:44:23.340to make an intervention um on this issue given that the catholic church um is especially poland
00:44:32.300historically pro-life if you allow me to push back on that point ever so slightly the catholic
00:44:38.780churchill was very visible in pro-life issues right throughout the the jpt pontificate even
00:44:47.020under benedict the 16th ratzinger um that really stopped it dried up from one day um to another
00:44:55.900under their late unlamented successor uh francis bergoglio and to some extent because the momentum
00:45:05.500has continued um even today under um uh pope leo and i counter if you don't mind olivia i'll push
00:45:13.900back on this one when you say you wouldn't have expected the institutional catholic church to be
00:45:19.100getting involved in this i tell you if this had been on deporting invaders and sending them back
00:45:25.260to africa you can be absolutely sure that the catholic church uh would have been um making
00:45:32.060its view perfectly clear to the and using as leverage the fact that the Polish electorate
00:45:40.500is still incredibly Catholic to undermine in Poland. So I think they're absent from that0.94
00:45:47.320debate for strategic reasons, rather than they just didn't happen to note that it was taking
00:45:53.160place. All right, look, we've got five minutes left, Olivia. I do want to just talk about this
00:45:56.900final case that order yours has been extremely prominent on in poland and this is the case of0.98
00:46:07.100a paramedic a catholic paramedic being attract attacked by a guy a muslim an invader she was
00:46:16.160helping um when the invader saw that the paramedic was wearing a cross and crucifix
00:46:24.820he was helping and the excuse me he was helping it's about it's about that excuse me excuse me
00:46:34.900the paramedic uh that the cross was wearing and um and the guy the the invader started shouting
00:46:42.880ala hu akbar obviously we all live in dread that those will be the final words we hear
00:46:50.080All authentic Christians, I think, in the West now have a slight hesitation that those words might be the two final words they hear on this earthly life before being dispatched in the name of the religion of peace.
00:49:55.260Yeah, but in Poland, the situation is different because the Muslim presence is much more limited than in Germany or France. And the foreigners are very often from Georgia, from Ukraine. And you have also cases of Ukrainians attacking violently Poland.
00:50:14.520So it's isolated cases and doesn't happen so often as with Muslim immigrants or African immigrants.
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