Based Camp - Why Do 10⧸10 Top VTubers Look Like Children？

00:00:00.000 Hello, Simone! Today we are going to be talking about an interesting case that has had some virality within our community, which is Tectone found out, to his horror, that one of the VTubers he was crushing on was not a minor.

00:00:20.400 What?

00:00:21.000 What?

00:00:21.220 i swear man she said she was 13

00:00:32.560 what the f**k i feel like i just saw something illegal i told the internet iron mouse had a kid

00:00:44.720 and they're 19 and iron mouse is 40 imagine how visibly shaken iron mouse is now i was visibly

00:00:53.900 shaken normies finding out vtubers are adult women and we need to talk about this because

00:00:59.680 it's a very there's a this is deeper so i had an ai do an analysis on the top 10 vtubers

00:01:05.280 to find out by looking at their models plausibly what what percent of them were not minors and it

00:01:14.000 said one of the ten uh wait which one of the ten doesn't look like a minor we'll get to that okay

00:01:20.080 we'll get to that look them up scroll around and find it i need to see we ended up uh looking up

00:01:26.180 this individual and i do not agree with the ai and neither does simone we think she looks

00:01:30.580 high school maybe plausibly barely legal and we'll be going through the page uh but this is

00:01:37.480 this is an interesting phenomenon because this isn't necessarily that these women are choosing

00:01:42.240 this if you look at yuki yaru who we had on our stream recently um she discussed the phenomenon

00:01:47.980 where when she first went on she planned to do loo tubing she had a model with big jiggly boobs

00:01:54.520 she was like okay i'll go out there i'll get all these guys because she figured that was what

00:01:59.020 people wanted which is understandable as time went on she moved to smaller and smaller breasts

00:02:06.260 and both less sexualized and more overtly a minor model yes and as she made that transition

00:02:14.140 her audience got bigger now she probably would have moved in the other direction had she not

00:02:19.320 seen this we probably wouldn't see this many vtubers be doing this if this wasn't what

00:02:24.020 the audience apparently wanted so the question becomes why does the audience want this um when

00:02:32.180 there are not that many pda files uh or maybe there are allegedly another question we'll get

00:02:39.240 to i don't know um uh and the second question the large question is well first let's just focus on

00:02:47.160 the tech tone thing because i found this whole thing interesting and it's worth talking how old

00:02:50.220 is he what like mid 30s uh so what he found out is he found out an old clip for her where she

00:02:57.200 admitted to having a daughter who was at least 10 years old um in that exactly 10 at that clip

00:03:02.900 and the clip was nine years ago so it means that now she has a 19 year old daughter which he took

00:03:07.600 to mean she's at least in her 40s which i would agree with she's probably at least in her 40s

00:03:12.260 fair enough and he's 32 years old uh yeah okay well and and he was scandalized by this i mean

00:03:19.440 in his clip he he acted scandalized i i will note here that i suspect that his scandalization was

00:03:26.400 mint as a joke sure didn't think through the meta of this i don't think that he actually really he's

00:03:32.560 not an idiot he didn't actually think that she was like a 10 year old like it's just weird when

00:03:37.660 there's a disconnect between the public face and the voice behind it that's all yeah yeah um

00:03:45.980 so the tech tone thing it's just a gag we don't really think that he thought that it's just funny

00:03:53.620 the way this is playing out and congratulations to him on the kid he has on the way and uh so i

00:04:01.080 don't i don't really i want to be very clear here i am not as a predator or something like that i i'm

00:04:06.440 saying he did a bit but i think the bit uncovers something much deeper which is this inversion of

00:04:14.000 the trope of you know the guy comes to your house from dateline he's like sit down sit down like

00:04:19.160 and they're like i swear i thought she was older and here it's like i i swear i thought it was a

00:04:24.600 10 year old i had no idea that was a 40 year old woman with children um and the internet has been

00:04:32.500 uh mostly uh sane about this um so i decided to do a sentiment analysis so in case people are

00:04:39.200 wondering like okay i know this has been going viral what percent of people 55 percent of 45 to

00:04:45.860 55% are saying this is a complete nothing burger. Why are you caring about this? 25 to 35% are

00:04:51.840 actively mad at the people who are angry about this, right? So a big chunk of the flashback

00:05:00.280 has been like, why are you shaming a woman for having children? And only 20 to 30% actually

00:05:08.560 treat this as any sort of a scandal. And first, I want to note, I find this to be an incredibly

00:05:13.580 healthy response from the wider community. I think it's an incredibly good response to see

00:05:18.440 from the wider community. And the reason I say that is because the VTubing community in the

00:05:24.280 United States grew out of the idol worship community in Japan and South Korea. And those

00:05:35.060 communities in regards to stars having children or getting old is brutal and abusive, frankly.

00:05:42.180 it's a really disgusting community it promotes antinatalism in these countries because these

00:05:47.200 stars aren't allowed to have kids because everybody treats them like they're married to

00:05:49.960 them right i know you're going to go into later in this piece where the same thing happened with

00:05:55.600 a bunch of old ladies and a younger man um and then they they did freak out because he ended up

00:06:00.040 sleeping was one of them so we'll talk about that but we we imported this from japan but we didn't

00:06:05.060 import the toxicity as much right you know and when this is flared up we've pushed back which i

00:06:10.580 appreciate but one of the things that we did import from japan was the useful figures because

00:06:16.580 this was a part of this culture in japan as well when they were fictionalized yeah so i decided to

00:06:22.140 go over top 10 just so we can talk through this this wider phenomenon of the incredibly young

00:06:28.660 looking vtuber model topping the charts so top one here you actually know this one because she's

00:06:34.760 in a titan's shark princess song um this is oh my god oh the the the reason why our daughter

00:06:42.760 identifies as a shark princess yeah because she saw a music video with garu garu in it

00:06:48.980 and she said that's me yeah this is the video about me

00:06:54.740 this is the video about me um it's a very cute video uh but anyway she she looks like a child

00:07:04.740 you you'd agree with that right like yes i think you know kind of confirmed when a you know four

00:07:10.420 year old girl thinks that it's about her so yeah if a four-year-old girl sees your video and is

00:07:17.020 like that's me i think something might be going on there uh then we have hoshima marine um a young

00:07:24.380 face i i looked up her big eyes very young looking um definitely not past 18 uh hoshima

00:07:32.880 Sushi

00:07:33.640 Sushi or something, I can't pronounce any of these

00:07:37.100 Again

00:07:39.060 Young face here

00:07:40.260 Usadako Pekaro was the next

00:07:43.120 One, Kobo Kanaro

00:07:44.980 Shikuma

00:07:47.100 Fubikino

00:07:48.220 Mori Kalalope

00:07:50.420 Sakuro Miko

00:07:52.260 And then

00:07:54.160 Uniko

00:07:56.800 Korom, and the smallest

00:07:59.140 Of these is at 2.28

00:08:01.260 million um and then you could add additional ones in there like the one we're talking about today

00:08:05.560 iron mouse very clearly childlike um filian quite big uh i don't know if you've seen filian

00:08:11.580 very very childlike in the way that both she presents acts and uh it is shown on screen in

00:08:18.440 fact uh of the ones that like i watch the only ones that look there's some that look like teenagers

00:08:24.780 okay that are popular in our community like i'd say kirsha and smuggalana and the only one i know

00:08:29.840 who actively presents as an adult is cha-cha um and that's because cha-cha often talks about how

00:08:36.600 many kids she's had and it's hard to not see her so she takes on like the mommy role she's

00:08:40.640 any of the really busty ones are just obviously adults so of these um the ones that came off as

00:08:48.340 clearly like child child yeah would be guru and kobo um then young teen to high school you have

00:08:55.860 Susie, Pekaro, Fubiko, Miko, and Korone.

00:09:00.100 Young face, sexier body is Marine.

00:09:03.320 And then close to adult is Kali.

00:09:05.860 So let's look up Kali, because you said you wanted to see the one that...

00:09:08.560 Yeah.

00:09:10.020 It's Mori Kallilope.

00:09:12.140 Okay.

00:09:12.680 Let's see what she looks like, to see if I agree with the AI.

00:09:14.720 Because the AI actually looked up images of them.

00:09:17.880 Oh.

00:09:19.460 Yeah, she's plausibly, I mean, I'd say barely legal, but...

00:09:25.860 yeah um no this is a high schooler this is a high schooler this is not an adult

00:09:34.460 she's not of drinking age yeah she's adorable but that's the problem she's adorable

00:09:43.180 maybe they saw any images of her with larger

00:09:46.960 chesticles and therefore assumed that she was an adult but all the other ones show her with

00:09:52.620 a modest chest so i don't know i don't know what to make it yeah i'm looking at something let's

00:09:59.280 see isidiko pekaro what is this one i'm just spot checking this here oh my god i'm surprised it put

00:10:06.700 this at teen she she is that's a child no what yeah this is obviously a child what she's a little

00:10:13.600 child bunny girl i think the ai is being overly generous here yeah i mean that's sweet that's

00:10:19.640 cute okay it's cute it's cute okay anyway people like cute things can you can we not have cute

00:10:27.140 things right um so i think when the internet gets upset is the sexualization of some of these

00:10:34.920 figures which i will notice doesn't happen as much as you would expect if i'm gonna be honest

00:10:40.560 um you don't see them a lot on like adult content sites that otherwise do like rule 34 of a lot of

00:10:49.620 like tv shows and cartoons and stuff like that like the average cartoon is like way more rules

00:10:55.560 34 than the average vtuber so that's interesting yeah but to continue here well

00:11:08.280 um so what i wanted to research here and what i wanted to go into here was like the spiciest

00:11:16.500 to spicy questions it's one that i've avoided in the past and it's one that i think needs to

00:11:21.620 be talked about because this becomes such a part of like the internet community right which is

00:11:27.540 is this a problem is this something we should be moralizing about is this actually a major issue

00:11:35.560 is this a threat to children yeah that these characters are so popular and the study that

00:11:43.800 you like to go over in regards to this in regards to your argument is just like like way more men

00:11:50.620 are comfortable with being attracted to children than we publicly admit um what does the study say

00:11:55.260 i think it was an ageless vampire came into your window was the body of an 11 year old yes the

00:12:00.680 number of men who would sleep with her was higher than the number of men i think who would sleep

00:12:05.840 with her if she came to your window was the body of like a 55 year old yeah um yeah obviously i

00:12:11.480 think anyone will hear that and be like i mean this is not this is not surprising no one should

00:12:18.120 be surprised by this and i think it was the the 50 mark in the study was 14 right yeah it was

00:12:25.300 something like that yeah yeah 14 okay ridiculously yeah like certainly um a level of young that

00:12:31.980 would not be considered an age of consent even in like europe where it goes super low

00:12:37.780 yeah yeah i mean obviously in a muslim country of course but we're talking in like

00:12:42.960 the rest of the world um so there's that study and i think here as we enter the world where

00:12:52.600 anyone can appear any way they want was in an online context which is going to increasingly

00:12:57.520 become the case in terms of ai we need to think about the norms that we set um in terms of where

00:13:05.040 do we draw the line on appropriateness and if you're seeing the average guy thinking this is

00:13:11.200 appropriate if the vampire is actually you know 300 years old then we have to think of okay well

00:13:17.940 then what does that mean in terms of a 40 year old woman using an avatar like this and then i

00:13:24.020 often bring this up in the context of uh just porn more generally where i point out that when porn

00:13:29.860 had been illegal but then was made legal child sa rates have dropped by dramatic amounts of the

00:13:36.420 czech republic it was a 50 drop we saw a dramatic drop in places like hong kong we saw when this

00:13:42.040 was outlawed and in other countries i think the netherlands was outlawed at one point uh or are

00:13:46.540 you sorry not outlawed re-legalized at one point and you just saw big drops um but the question

00:13:52.100 here is not around this it's around the the the question of yeah but well i understand there's

00:13:58.100 the general corn stuff right but like what if you're actually sexualizing things that are not

00:14:04.620 children e.g a 300 year old vampire in a child's body or a 44 year old woman with an avatar that

00:14:11.900 looks clearly underage and as a society right like what effect is that going to have on the

00:14:21.000 rates of essay um and that's something i wanted to dig into right and people can be here well

00:14:26.780 malcolm it's about the moral thing more broadly i don't care about the moral thing more broadly

00:14:31.860 right i i just genuinely don't i'm a consequentialist right you can say i think porn is an

00:14:39.340 existentially bad thing in a society and then i would say okay i care more about the 50 percent

00:14:47.900 of children who got essayed that year yeah right you know that that it that to me outweighs your

00:14:54.040 moral concern right like that for me is the end goal here is reducing actual harms

00:15:01.960 and i am actually not like slightly of this position i am massively disgusted and view

00:15:11.060 as a great deal of contempt the people who would sacrifice children to be as aid so that they could

00:15:18.420 feel morally pure or clean or so that they don't have to deal with temptation it's frankly uh one

00:15:26.400 of the lowest moral stances you could have it is offloading the cost of your moral purity

00:15:32.540 to the lives of children literally sacrificing children so you can be clean it's it's very like

00:15:40.700 malucky and stuff now i would point out here that i think these characters are very very rarely put

00:15:48.600 in positions where they're sexualized i do not think the majority of the audience sexualizes

00:15:52.920 these characters but i think the conversation around them being sexualized is one that needs

00:15:58.220 to be had because that's the maximalist harm conversation and these characters aren't just

00:16:06.320 some other thing, some leftist thing that never touches our world, whether you're talking about

00:16:11.120 Powder, Leaflet, or Yukiaru, they exist within our community as well. And that's just a conversation

00:16:16.280 we need to have. So what can we see when we're looking at large level populations? So I think

00:16:22.200 the biggest thing we can look at here, because this is just like a very easy one, is population

00:16:28.140 level stuff. Now, we have countries that have recently, which we'll look at in a second,

00:16:34.720 outlawed child content uh like japan very very recently we'll get to when they outlawed that

00:16:41.940 that's crazy it outlawed um in japan they uh still in shows uh obviously sexualized minors

00:16:52.980 at pretty high rates um in well i mean this is just common in their ubiquitous not common you

00:17:00.500 it's it's anything that older women in in this like especially in anime or shows it's hard to

00:17:09.340 see unless it's like a show about old women yeah like some old old person game show so i was actually

00:17:17.100 reading a really fun mawa recently we're like the core plot of it was that a guy went into one of

00:17:22.980 these mawa worlds you know like transmigrated and his sort of superpower in the world is that he

00:17:28.980 found all women attractive because they were all drawn like mawa women and so like even when they

00:17:33.600 had some horrible defect they're ashamed of it's like a birthmark or like black hair or like

00:17:39.940 freckles and everyone else finds them like disgusting and like throws up when they talk

00:17:45.120 to them amazing because it's drawn like mawa and they all look young forever obviously and they

00:17:50.340 are that is perfect oh my goodness cute yeah i like that yeah i like that uh it's a fun bit but

00:17:57.460 it is true to to a lot of these worlds um so uh first japan has lower rates of sa of children

00:18:05.000 than the united states um really wow that's fantastic actually that makes a lot of sense

00:18:10.720 but that's fantastic yeah but i was gonna play devil's advocate for them my my claim here would

00:18:17.800 be yeah but japan is a way more like law and order country than the united states and japanese

00:18:26.200 the men are more timid than the united states and japan doesn't have as many muslim immigrants

00:18:30.560 as the united states um sorry i didn't say that last one i meant something else by that right um

00:18:37.760 but well different cultures okay we shouldn't shame their culture it's their way of living

00:18:45.040 they just don't no actually you've seen the this going doing the rounds on youtube um they're

00:18:49.180 they're now passing out pamphlets to people migrating to the uk oh god yes where we come

00:18:56.500 from we need to agree to sexual acts both people just you you know you can't just assume that

00:19:06.780 because someone asked to borrow your lighter that they're good to go the more you know that's

00:19:13.160 terrifying i mean it's the fact that they feel like they need to do this not a great sign in my

00:19:18.760 opinion let's let's not get too distracted though anyway i i agree with you cultural differences

00:19:23.840 look if the uk government is recognizing it to the extent that you need a pamphlet

00:19:28.420 for new arrivals we can talk about it yeah and just so you understand how big the difference

00:19:35.660 is between japan and the united states if you're talking about the rate of sa per thousand children

00:19:40.220 in japan it's only 0.15 to 0.2 whereas in the united states it's 0.8 to 0.1

00:19:48.340 it's like four five x higher it's astonishingly higher that is astonishing

00:19:57.400 so okay well then let's let's let's try to control this let's say okay well what about

00:20:05.760 within japan right um what what how did things change when things were outlawed okay

00:20:13.180 so um the first uh ban against selling of this type of content happened in 1999

00:20:21.640 um and then in uh starting 2015 they they began enforcing even personal possession of this kind

00:20:31.740 of content so it was not illegal until 2015. wow okay okay so let's go over the effect that this

00:20:41.160 had um if we look at cp victims identified by the police in japan 2015 there were 905

00:20:51.860 2016 there was a thousand three hundred and thirteen 2019 this was the peak there was a

00:20:59.180 thousand five hundred and fifty nine um 2024 there was a thousand two hundred and sixty five

00:21:05.460 so it appeared to precipitate a large jump in this behavior now let's look there there is some

00:21:18.980 data that makes it look like it could be good okay so where you get a good data is on assault

00:21:28.680 okay it's it's not a huge number but it is a number so in 2014 it went from 7 400 to 2015

00:21:38.480 6 755 to 2016 6 188 okay this is an indecent assault and you get even slightly better numbers

00:21:50.560 on the um well not really the full-on grape 2014 you go from 1250 to 2015 1167 although by 2016 you

00:22:04.320 do see a drop this is the one instance where i think you can you can make an argument for it

00:22:08.160 to 989 um so uh let's look at the studies on this all right a fun topic by the way right simone

00:22:18.900 no but i mean this is something we need to engage with if people are making the claim

00:22:23.320 like we grew up in our childhood where everybody made the claim that you know if you like shooting

00:22:28.300 people in video games you're gonna like shooting people in real life um and yeah yeah i grew up as

00:22:35.260 a big fan of video games and i was always really incensed by this oh that yeah that was so big then

00:22:41.080 if they like shooting people on video games it's inevitable yes that was so odd and the data has

00:22:48.160 shown that this is not the case but it took a while for people to agree on that and i personally

00:22:54.540 am not a big fan of vtubing uh i what i mean is i don't sit around and watch many vtubers i watch

00:23:01.240 leaflet really and sometimes kirsha um and i understand leaflet is what people could consider

00:23:08.280 to be no no she's just blatantly an underage character um the character she plays is very

00:23:13.780 obviously underage uh if phenotypically i mean she's a slime so she's lived for her and she's

00:23:19.020 a secretary yeah and she has an adult job that kind of administrative job as a teenager i mean

00:23:26.120 i guess you used to but like not these days but anyway i see i see your point she she's a young

00:23:30.980 looking character and not to call out leaflet unique here lee and the other members of our

00:23:38.380 community like powder or yukiaru also have phenotypically young characters as their models

00:23:44.080 oh and almost forgot rev and straub as well and by the way congrats to them for having a baby

00:23:49.860 i mean if we're going to be passing judgment on these other characters we have to pass judgment

00:23:54.500 i mean and it's not just like yukiaru also young well talked about looking young but

00:24:00.940 also when yuki water talked about when she first thought about vtubing right and her friend was

00:24:08.360 like your voice is just perfect for it because her voice just naturally sounds extremely young

00:24:12.940 and that's almost like them implicitly understanding this trope of vtubers looking phenotypically very

00:24:19.340 young it's as if that friend of hers knew the niche she should be in before she was she thought

00:24:25.460 it was like oh like busty lewd tuber thing and instead it was like no girl your voice makes you

00:24:31.980 sound super young like that's the point it's not the boobs it's the young which is crazy but yeah

00:24:38.340 it's super interesting so her voice is great i love her voice by the way there was an interesting

00:24:44.020 study that looked at this particular topic uh titled um shoot it doesn't have the title here

00:24:51.580 where the where the frick is the title oh uh self-report sexuality harmful behaviors among

00:24:58.380 fictional only and mixed csem users okay so basically this was like if you watch uh fictionalized

00:25:08.860 young people so like anime right okay yeah um uh what are your odds of doing something that would

00:25:15.960 be considered essay versus if you watch some fictionalized so the fictionalized would be like

00:25:21.080 anime ai cartoon etc and some real right hmm okay so similar patterns were found for uh

00:25:31.500 s conversations with oh actually i'll go up here uh individuals in the mixed group were

00:25:38.580 significantly more likely to uh report harmful behaviors for example 7.9 percent of the mixed

00:25:45.460 group reported offline contact s related contact with a young person oh um compared to 0.5 percent

00:25:55.600 of the control group now the reason this is important is because if you look at the general

00:26:02.180 population in the united states between one and five percent of adults have done this so that

00:26:09.980 means that of the group that was consuming only fictionalized content in this particular study

00:26:16.320 they had a rate of doing this that was half at most the rate of the general population

00:26:24.480 potentially if you go with the five percent number 10x lower than the general population

00:26:34.060 whereas the group that was consuming real content had a rate above the general population

00:26:42.480 potentially significantly above depending on what number you go is well which makes sense

00:26:47.080 because there is really i would argue a meaningful divide between fake or illustrated stuff and

00:26:55.640 real stuff like if what you really crave is inappropriate interaction with people

00:27:02.480 at inappropriate ages you're not going to want to watch drawings you're going to want to get as

00:27:07.240 close to the real thing as you possibly can right i mean that's what makes that's actually a good

00:27:11.000 point i mean if you um and and one of the things that i think you need to accept like if if we

00:27:18.960 accept this first thing like from the vampire girl study and stuff like that that rates of

00:27:25.260 desiring this especially within non-western populations we did another episode on this

00:27:29.340 which is uh how the west ruined pda files for everyone um which was a very fun episode if you're

00:27:35.340 interested in digging deeper on this topic because uh the bans against this or stigmas against this

00:27:41.600 are just not as common in countries that are not western um specifically because in western

00:27:46.520 countries going back to the medieval period uh people got married at much older ages um they

00:27:51.280 generally in the medieval period in europe at least northern western europe uh it was normal

00:27:58.980 for women to get married in their mid 20s which you just don't see anywhere else on earth during

00:28:04.020 that period um and this has had genetic effects like northern western europeans can conceive

00:28:10.880 much later than other popular any other ethnic group um which is helping us a lot with fertility

00:28:15.980 rates but like well that that's a totally different video check it out if you're interested in checking

00:28:20.540 it out i mean okay much later like two years but meaningful meaningful if you're starting

00:28:26.280 trying to have kids in your 30s or something absolutely yes yes every year counts yeah so

00:28:32.660 okay number of kids uh where were we was this number was kids number was kids uh

00:28:39.120 well you're talking about the control study oh no no what i was talking about is if you assume

00:28:45.460 based on the data that we see that this is a heavily shamed thing in our society

00:28:52.000 but also a fairly normal thing from the data we have access to.

00:29:01.100 And if that's the case,

00:29:04.340 then having mechanisms that control the behavior

00:29:08.220 is very, very important in a society.

00:29:11.900 And if you don't have those mechanisms in place,

00:29:14.920 you're going to have more real children being harmed

00:29:18.360 by people who simply lack self-control.

00:29:22.000 Isn't your argument, didn't the other research though kind of imply that, well, I guess it could only show correlation though.

00:29:29.820 Well, there was another study on this that you could go further on, which is understanding the use of C-related S fantasy and fictional S materials by people who are attracted to Cs.

00:29:43.060 okay um and as a quote from the abstract here it said instead there was evidence that s

00:29:49.700 satisfaction was associated with lower levels of self-reported willingness to offend

00:29:54.620 and permissive attitudes about s interactions between adults and c's oh in other words if

00:30:02.140 you're able to figure out how to enjoy yourself on that front without bothering anyone you're

00:30:07.460 less likely to bother someone you're less likely to bother somebody yes that's good we want that

00:30:12.460 Okay. Wow. That's actually, that's pretty meaningful in terms of people's arguments about synthetic versions of this content, because people are extremely against it. And their argument is almost always, if you permit this synthetically, you are going to feed it in real life. And this is suggesting something to the opposite.

00:30:29.760 and the argument the data that they use to back that argument which is really stupid data is they

00:30:36.480 will uh interview people who have done this and asked if they consumed fictional material first

00:30:44.520 um which is not like that that's like interviewing murderers and saying did you play video games

00:30:52.940 first right like obviously they probably consumed material at a higher rate than the general

00:30:57.600 population that doesn't correlate with material um being out there lowering the rates of this

00:31:05.100 happening the general population yeah yeah so one i'm just gonna make a few sort of binding points

00:31:14.700 here one is uh first i don't even think that many of these characters are that particularly

00:31:22.160 sexualized um you look at like a yukiaru character or a uh leaflet character and uh they're just non

00:31:31.540 they're they're they're not sexualized they don't really bait their fans that much from what i see

00:31:36.520 they don't well no yukiwaru also talked about this when we interviewed her um when she occasionally

00:31:42.040 did it um especially after she adopted her newer character design people are like you don't don't

00:31:49.580 remember her saying that yeah that's also an important note they're like don't do that um

00:31:53.400 please that's not appropriate that's not why we're here that's yeah which is great and also

00:31:58.220 like that goes to show that's not what the audiences are here for people just like cute

00:32:04.100 things um and children are cute things sorry yeah i think that that that is genuinely one of them

00:32:10.900 and keep in mind we have a society now with a child-sized hole in its heart yeah we have a lot

00:32:16.100 Where are we going to get it, guys?

00:32:17.840 Who don't have kids, who don't have families,

00:32:21.060 and who are transplanting this desire onto fictional characters

00:32:26.640 who fill that particular role in their life.

00:32:29.060 Yep.

00:32:30.340 And I think that, you know, we sort of,

00:32:34.160 many guys would rather, like, admit, like, deeply wrong sexual behavior

00:32:39.620 than admit that they're just deeply lonely and effed up in life

00:32:44.380 and not finding their reproductive partner.

00:32:49.740 Which is really sad.

00:32:51.520 It is sad.

00:32:52.360 But I think that that's one thing.

00:32:54.200 You just don't see a lot of...

00:32:57.860 It's not that you don't see any.

00:33:00.480 I'm just saying you see less than you see of equivalently famous,

00:33:04.780 let's say, cartoon characters.

00:33:06.760 As to why that's the case...

00:33:14.380 would you have a thesis on that i might just be out of respect to be honest

00:33:19.560 i think most people who form parasocial crushes on people with these types of avatars or even

00:33:27.640 parasocial relationships uh do not want to uh disrespect them because they see them as real

00:33:35.300 human beings in a way that they don't see cartoons and stuff like that or they don't

00:33:40.340 want them flirting with the other fans yeah maybe they just keep it all to themselves

00:33:45.600 i mean yes it's harder to imagine you know that they only have eyes for you

00:33:51.380 i i don't know no i i really just i think and the impression that yuki waru left me with was

00:33:59.780 just people are like no that's not what we're here for like don't yeah so first there's that

00:34:05.760 Second is they don't actually look like children.

00:34:09.060 And this is very important.

00:34:11.600 I have a lot of kids.

00:34:14.720 Obviously, you know, I have five kids.

00:34:15.940 I'm around them constantly.

00:34:17.560 And I'm also a big fan of anime.

00:34:20.620 As are they.

00:34:22.120 As are they.

00:34:22.740 They really like anime too.

00:34:23.920 And I had this realization at one point where I saw characters in an anime that were like of the, you know, variety.

00:34:35.760 that was meant to look young.

00:34:37.660 And I was just like,

00:34:38.920 these in no way bring up a vision

00:34:41.440 of what my kids look like

00:34:43.860 or act or move or anything.

00:34:47.220 They are completely alien,

00:34:50.140 this artistic style.

00:34:54.040 And I think it can even be harmful

00:34:57.060 to overly tie this style

00:35:00.720 to this is a real child, right?

00:35:03.240 Because it's not.

00:35:05.760 it's obviously not it's so obviously not yeah i mean i think you could kind of see a similar

00:35:11.720 thing going on with rev where revs like look i don't want to look at a dude this whole time like

00:35:16.100 i want to look at a cute vampire um i think a lot of people if they're going to watch a vtuber for

00:35:21.380 a long time make it cute you know i don't want to watch like i want to hear the ideas of an adult

00:35:27.480 and know that they're an adult but don't make me look at an adult we have to look at adults

00:35:32.180 especially an adult man ick i know it's uh it is unfortunate make it make it stop make it stop

00:35:40.620 well this brings me to another point that i was going to make around this which is that

00:35:45.020 as a society we are going to have to build norms around how we think about this that have the in

00:35:53.420 state of protecting real children like i think that that should be the goal always uh while

00:35:58.440 also understanding like what what are people going to do so as we move forward as a society

00:36:02.860 more and more ar is going to filter into our lives and uh by that what i mean is the people

00:36:08.360 you interact with you know right now it's the vtubers only who you interact with through

00:36:12.460 virtual avatars yeah um but soon your husband or wife can be a cat girl yeah we'll have ai

00:36:19.400 technology that allows us to live as avatars um i'll be able to you know leaflet watched the

00:36:27.460 elections in anime she had a system that translated the camera that she was looking at

00:36:35.380 into an anime of the real world which elections the last election cycle you mean like the primaries

00:36:44.080 in the united states yeah dude what i didn't realize that how did i miss that that's crazy

00:36:49.800 yeah it's a cool it's a cool technology why did that technology is going to become more and more

00:36:54.420 ubiquitous. As we begin to engage more and more in online environments, more and more with AI.

00:37:00.160 And even if you are like, I want to be a purist or whatever, you know, your kids are going to

00:37:05.100 be hanging out in the whatever the next version of VR chat rooms is and stuff like that.

00:37:08.760 Yes. And as soon as having a never aging, always beautiful body is an option for women,

00:37:15.600 a lot of women are going to opt into that. And the question is how many of them are going to

00:37:22.400 opt into these sorts of bodies and i think that we have two contrasting things our society has a

00:37:31.240 very strong stigma against this and yet even with the existing stigma nine out of ten of the top

00:37:37.840 vtubers potentially more use avatars like this and they're not nine out of the ten top because

00:37:45.600 like after they became top avatars they decided to switch into bodies like this you guys made them

00:37:52.600 that and that tells me something about society um nothing surprising though this this isn't

00:38:02.720 surprising people people have been favoring young people this whole time and it's not just

00:38:11.020 men favoring younger looking women like i was going on about with that canadian

00:38:19.660 streamer that i was telling you about today that yeah tell the fans the story that was insane

00:38:25.360 yeah there's uh i i didn't watch this documentary myself but it's a netflix documentary called

00:38:30.300 thirst trap the fame the fantasy the fallout um and i listened to my favorite snark youtuber

00:38:36.360 sheer Denise talk about it. It's a documentary about a Canadian TikTok creator named William

00:38:43.380 White, who for whatever reason, somehow garnered this giant audience of ardent female fans who

00:38:51.380 are like mothers and grandmothers. Like these are all people with their, like they're middle-aged

00:38:57.300 and older, like forties and above. And many of these women were such ardent fans that they very

00:39:02.920 enthusiastically participated in this Netflix documentary like it included original footage

00:39:07.820 of them like being filmed super happy to talk about this guy and there was this whole thing

00:39:13.820 like they figured out where he lived and and decided to like personally deliver gifts to him

00:39:19.120 he lived his parents house like he wasn't doing so well how old was he 21 years old and there's

00:39:25.760 all these women who are like finding out where he lives like this this kid's younger okay I mean

00:39:30.360 he's 21 years old so he is of drinking age but he looks very childlike and he's sort of famous for

00:39:35.580 this slow wink and for lip syncing to songs and women are just like oh my god like when he rolls

00:39:39.980 his eyes i just have to watch it again and again and it's disgusting like it's really creepy um

00:39:44.980 and then he ended up hooking up with one of his fans what was her username was like um disney mama

00:39:51.060 or something yeah disney mama was her username which angered a bunch of the other fans who

00:39:55.700 started piling on on her and then at one point things got really dark for him and he wanted to

00:39:59.860 take a break from streaming on tiktok and like go to rehab and people who were his fans threatened

00:40:08.340 that they would end their lives if he stopped streaming that they would like i will just end

00:40:14.760 it all like really like serious like like a like an abusive partner threatening um and it's i think

00:40:21.520 we're so used to hearing men doing this do this we're way less creepy than when women do this

00:40:27.920 yeah yeah like if this were men if there if this were men doing this and netflix did a documentary

00:40:34.260 on it there would be people out which with pitchforks and i never heard about this and

00:40:37.940 cheer denise had never heard about this until she watched the documentary which came out like a year

00:40:42.060 ago so all this happened and apparently no one cares but like when a man looks at a younger

00:40:47.060 woman wrong people get very angry so yeah it's um it's interesting but it's everyone likes young

00:40:55.780 Young means cuter and healthier and all that, especially when it comes to romantic interest.

00:41:01.980 People do not want to attempt to procreate with someone who's not likely this fertile anymore.

00:41:11.360 It's normal.

00:41:13.340 Yeah.

00:41:14.940 Well, I mean, especially in Europe.

00:41:17.920 yeah i think more broadly what we like the the bigger thing to admit is unfortunately in a free

00:41:25.100 market nine out of ten well really ten out of ten because the one that they say was not

00:41:30.300 she's she's a high schooler i'm sorry no no no no no no yeah it's 10 out of 10 10 out of the 10 of

00:41:35.380 the top ones look and and and that's just the algo okay oh you could you could argue i guess

00:41:42.280 one one counterpoint is with anime it's so freaking hard like everyone kind of looks like

00:41:47.880 a child even when they try to draw adults kind of look like children no garu garu was not trying

00:41:54.440 to draw a gender a genuine like ambiguous character no that's a child that's that's a child

00:42:00.680 that's a child that's a child she's a princess i love our daughter i'm a shark princess so

00:42:09.340 freaking much oh my god she always attacks from above above she climbs on things they've all

00:42:15.720 learn this tactic because then they can jump on me she'll get you when you least expect though

00:42:19.660 and always from the wrong thing like you never expect a four-year-old to come flying at you from

00:42:24.400 the sky anyway anyway yeah um and i and i also don't really get this from these fan bases either

00:42:36.280 like you know i do leaflet's show a lot and like do i think that her fan base is a bunch of pda

00:42:41.300 files like no they're a bunch of intellectuals and fun people no i don't i don't i don't think

00:42:46.680 that um and i think that like you can you can uh you know grind your gear whatever you want to say

00:42:55.120 like whinge and and and shout like an old man who's angry that the times are changing um at

00:43:01.360 the sky and everything like that uh but the reality is is norms are changing the time is

00:43:07.380 changing and it's going to change even more dramatically as soon as anyone can wear the

00:43:11.800 skin of any avatar they want and i think that we should focus a lot more on protecting children

00:43:17.760 and a lot less on trying to look like we care about protecting children um because that can

00:43:24.900 really leave children vulnerable because you're you're wasting your time on that either doesn't

00:43:29.560 matter or is directly you know uh bad absolutely so uh any parting thoughts simone

00:43:40.640 maybe

00:43:45.880 no no no um

00:43:53.820 i mean i do think it's an interesting phenomenon and the and the thing that i note

00:43:59.200 most about this phenomenon is it's definitely a chain like when i was a kid okay i wouldn't

00:44:06.980 even say when i was a kid i'd say 10 years ago if you had said v tubing is going to become popular

00:44:13.080 i'd say yeah i could believe that yeah and then 10 out of the 10 top models look like children

00:44:19.060 uh for women i'd be like well like isn't that like some sort of a big scandal

00:44:23.600 and then people would be like you know honestly people are more scandalized that they're anime

00:44:28.460 characters and that they look like children and it's like oh yeah in fact people are more

00:44:36.500 scandalized that it turns out that one of them has a kid and is 40 i'm like wait the scandal is

00:44:42.280 that she's not an actual child that seems backwards yeah that does seem backwards i guess

00:44:49.360 this isn't as relevant of a note because our audience is majority male however i think you

00:44:55.220 know messages like these i think may make some women feel even more uncomfortable with the fact

00:45:00.320 that they inevitably are going to age and i think we should all just acknowledge that attempting to

00:45:04.960 look young forever you just can't pull it off once you're not a kid anymore you're not fooling anyone

00:45:10.440 You're going to look like a woman who's at work done

00:45:12.440 instead of just a woman of your age.

00:45:15.300 But unless you use an avatar, you could start VTubing.

00:45:17.280 You could use an avatar and start VTubing

00:45:19.120 if you have a young enough sounding voice

00:45:20.460 and maybe you can pull it off.

00:45:21.620 Sure.

00:45:22.160 However, I think this is downstream of a desire

00:45:26.480 to feel wanted and needed and loved.

00:45:29.060 And if that's really what you want, you can.

00:45:32.780 If you can have children, you can have children

00:45:35.360 and be famous with your children

00:45:37.840 and so loved and so wanted and so needed.

00:45:40.160 And all of the interest I've ever had in those things has been completely and utterly satisfied

00:45:48.440 by children. To the extent where I'm like, oh, too famous. They need me too much. They're

00:45:53.720 constantly calling my name. But it's there. That solves it. And I think a lot of that yearning that

00:46:00.160 women feel is just misdirected yearning for parenting, that our society is too sick to

00:46:05.020 recognize as a yearning for parenting. And they're instead like, oh, no, no, no, it's for fame. I

00:46:08.560 promise but it's really not the other element of this is you could also be wanted and needed by

00:46:14.640 your community there are so many people i know who are really involved in their communities be

00:46:19.300 they online or offline who similarly have that same level of being needed because they're

00:46:24.340 meaningfully contributing not because they look young or because they're using some form of

00:46:29.140 implied or otherwise sexuality to attract it but because they're providing genuine value to other

00:46:33.720 people. So I think I just want to point out to anyone who feels this pressure to like look young

00:46:39.600 because they think that young people are wanted or needed. No, just start providing value and

00:46:44.960 you'll be wanted or needed. And it's really not that hard to provide value. Sometimes just listening

00:46:48.740 to people is all the value they've ever wanted. They just want someone to listen to them. So

00:46:54.680 anyway, that's, that's my stupid two cents, but whatever. Very, no, I agree with everything you're

00:47:01.520 saying there um are you gonna vtube one day no because i look i'm um i'm trans 62 i've always

00:47:10.860 felt you want to be an old lady yeah look i was a 62 year old born in the body of someone a different

00:47:17.700 age so once i'm finally old i think a big scandal is gonna be that you start vtubing and then they

00:47:23.620 find out that you're not a 62 year old you're actually no idea yes i'll vtube as like an old

00:47:27.900 woman and they'll be like she's in her 40s so she's not 60 something she's not 70 she's not 80

00:47:34.680 they'll be so mad i even wonder like your voice as a vtuber it would come off as so shocking to

00:47:39.260 me because it's so yeah wait yeah how does that how did that come across unusual for a vtuber

00:47:44.760 yeah are you pulling up one of our avatars um yeah but it just doesn't come through like she

00:47:52.300 needs a high voice because i'm a beautiful mermaid woman it doesn't work that way yeah it just it

00:47:59.720 really it doesn't work at all it doesn't work you can see my voice doesn't match your voice needs

00:48:05.220 to be high and cute if you're an anime girl everyone knows this it's i can't in god's mode

00:48:11.580 that is not what she sounds right i have to like i would be like the octopus evil woman or whatever

00:48:18.120 you know some some old fish i'm not the beautiful mermaid who's talking with her flowing hair and

00:48:25.000 his stupid ears that's just not who i am and that's my fault i come up short i'm gonna okay

00:48:32.880 you did a wink oh my god i love it rfab by the way people you can stream on here she did this

00:48:40.660 live speaking of leaflet yeah this is the rfab adaptation of what she built so teamwork makes

00:48:46.740 the dream work i think it's a really cool tool i love what you i love how accessible you made it

00:48:50.640 because uh yeah yeah and and making those avatars is so fun because at every stage when it finishes

00:48:58.420 a little bit it goes quest complete and leaflet voice i love it i had to realize what a bad voice

00:49:08.680 you have for vtubing i've been i have a terrible voice for vtubing i cannot vtube unless i'm

00:49:14.080 vtubing as an old woman i'm telling you i'm trans old no okay i think you could vtube as like a

00:49:20.240 tomboy as a tomboy can i can i tomboy like a chicken can i be a good does this work mate no

00:49:28.540 not even no this is a hi you know i'm a chicken i'll make a tomboy avatar for you for our tomboy

00:49:35.580 episode that's what we need okay i think we could do that i think we'll do tomboys in the bible

00:49:41.500 that's that's what i'm all about look this is what you you're stuck with this until you get

00:49:48.820 your ar glasses that make me look like whatever so and like by like your sexy puritan women

00:49:56.500 yeah yeah yeah i mean i know it's actually funny um is the degree to which uh

00:50:02.560 like i think people because i'm not like a big into vtubing person if i said like there's some

00:50:09.840 vtubers i watch but i watch them for their politics i think that's how it is with everyone

00:50:13.660 i don't think a single person watches a vtuber because of the way that they look

00:50:17.700 no disagree because there is one vtuber who i occasionally watch because i like her shtick um

00:50:24.400 who tomo sean uh tomo uh the the the uh tomboy horse girl okay i think i think she's real cute

00:50:34.680 um gotta love the horses there so no no her whole thing is about being a um a tomo yomiri yeah

00:50:44.900 it's about being a um you can look her up everybody always is like oh you grow out of

00:50:50.140 being a tomboy you know eventually you'll be more ladylike or whatever but i only had older

00:50:55.840 brothers growing up oh yeah i've seen her on your screen i've seen her on your screen yes

00:51:02.400 you have seen her there are many people on your screen to be fair

00:51:07.080 is she inspired by that horse girl anime i don't think well she might be who knows

00:51:14.280 but she definitely it's one of the few that like does not look remotely underage oh yeah fair

00:51:21.120 i mean she looks young she looks like 20s young yeah looking yeah no she looks like

00:51:30.400 Yeah, she looks like she's in her 20s.

00:51:33.020 20s, yeah.

00:51:34.600 Yeah.

00:51:35.280 But very, very tomboy in her aesthetics,

00:51:39.360 which I think you could pull off.

00:51:40.900 You could pull it off.

00:51:42.120 I don't think I can pull off anything but old woman,

00:51:44.820 but I like her weird strap headdress

00:51:50.040 to try to make up for, like, what do they call them?

00:51:53.060 The horsey hats.

00:51:55.980 Bridal.

00:51:56.620 The bridal.

00:51:57.420 Okay, anyway.

00:51:59.160 I'll see myself out.

00:52:00.400 you'll see yourself out for this this is not i can't vtube i can't talk

00:52:06.720 can't word but i sure do love you i love you too and now everyone's going to say all these

00:52:14.700 horrible things in the comments how dare you support this well have you noticed i don't know

00:52:18.400 if you i watch all the leftist and listen to all the leftist youtubers and podcasters

00:52:22.280 pedo is the new nazi do you understand this and degen like i don't know why they're they're

00:52:28.740 accusing us of being degen now uh which is very interesting they're the ones who normalize this

00:52:33.500 i know but we are now instead of being nazis we're pedo degens i don't know why they dropped the

00:52:38.700 nazi thing i guess it just kind of lost its i love there was an analysis of the people tied

00:52:43.540 to the f-stein case what percent were republican what percent were democrat and it was a 99 percent

00:52:48.140 democrat um so like no like i love that all you all these right-wing people are pedos it's like

00:52:56.380 no really that's just Andrew Tate you know that's you know uh did you know Turkey Tom just did a big

00:53:02.700 expose on him so uh another one wow so there's still stuff to expose I feel like man I didn't

00:53:10.540 know Turkey Tom had done one on him before well I was referring to the New Yorker no but Turkey Tom

00:53:16.760 is the internet guy who does the deep dives right okay you know so vindicated on that one by the

00:53:22.200 way um oh because oh because oh yeah yeah yeah a lot of the people listening to our episode were

00:53:29.060 like the new yorker i never trust what a new yorker investigative journalist would say

00:53:35.520 they're crazy like just because they're with the new yorker just because he's gone deep into like

00:53:41.320 trans communities and stuff as well to do like breakdown so like he's seemed to right-wing

00:53:46.980 people he's fairly neutral um and not one where you're just going to be like oh he's not being

00:53:52.040 honest about this and he absolutely was a pda file well i wonder then well yeah dude i mean

00:53:58.240 although although and look when we spoke with v earlier this week yesterday oh yeah he's like yeah

00:54:04.580 he's like the reason why andrew tate ultimately got in trouble in romania was because he went after

00:54:12.620 the daughter of a prominent politician and like he was kind of fine until he made the grave mistake

00:54:21.160 of going after the wrong child people were willing to turn the other direction to to take bribes but

00:54:28.460 then i guess when you come for politicians kids and all of her friends maybe that's a step too

00:54:33.500 far which is a part of the story that at least wasn't covered in the new yorker so good good

00:54:39.180 insight yeah maybe turkey tom talks about that uh that's that is an issue yeah i hadn't we hadn't

00:54:45.660 talked about that either but yeah the the the wider point here being is um it's weird that they

00:54:50.160 want to accuse the right of this when like they normalized all of this and this is their their

00:54:54.420 world and you can say well why on the right are we normalizing it's because you you don't want to

00:55:00.320 lose the culture war if you lose the culture war you lose culture and a lot of you know our top

00:55:05.600 players like rev says desu like imagine if you're like everyone who likes red says desu is a pedu

00:55:09.800 by the way pedu revin's revin's job just had a kid i'm so excited with this did they not have a kid

00:55:16.500 before is this this is their first kid as far as i'm aware that's so wonderful that's really

00:55:22.280 exciting i hope it all went well for them yeah birth stories don't always you know like the

00:55:28.740 actual process don't always work out and and again you guys didn't need to make row one of the top

00:55:36.420 right-wing vtubers okay that that was you guys plus the algorithm who did that like we either

00:55:42.880 have to admit human nature or sit here you know screaming at the sky that the timeline isn't going

00:55:49.620 in the direction we want it to the timeline goes as it must go and will go and has gone and always

00:55:56.860 will be all right have a fun one if you guys want to do ai stories or video recordings like this one

00:56:05.800 or make avatars or like living.

00:56:08.420 Yeah, you can make your own PNG VTuber

00:56:11.540 or like actual VTuber rig

00:56:13.180 that you can then refine on your own.

00:56:15.560 Malcolm built the actual VTuber rigging system.

00:56:18.660 Leaflet built, which is accessible easily on RFAB,

00:56:22.420 the PNGTuber thing, which you saw me demonstrate.

00:56:24.960 RFAB.ai.

00:56:26.040 And keep in mind, we let you use your own APIs.

00:56:28.460 So like if you want to use, you know,

00:56:30.500 your own Claude API or something like that

00:56:32.920 to not spend a bunch of money on the site,

00:56:34.580 that's totally fine.

00:56:35.180 especially if you're doing coding or something,

00:56:36.920 it allows you to like give your coding agents personalities in ways that you

00:56:41.140 just can't with regular coding agents or you just don't have the rigging to

00:56:46.560 do. But they also, another thing I suggest, everybody,

00:56:49.320 anybody who's using AI for coding these days should be using our API because

00:56:52.480 it lets the agents call you, which is very useful.

00:56:55.460 Like whenever they reach a stopping point, they can call you and be like,

00:56:57.940 Hey, can you give me that number? Can you give me the whatever?

00:57:00.640 That helps me code a lot faster. They can create images.

00:57:03.760 They can create videos.

00:57:05.140 And obviously the thing that most people use the website for

00:57:07.120 is either the based AI system, which I recently improved.

00:57:11.420 Rhodes now remembers in between messages.

00:57:14.380 There was a change in the API that made it forget

00:57:16.340 what was happening in between messages.

00:57:17.720 So I had to fix that.

00:57:19.040 Sorry about that, guys.

00:57:20.220 That was made without anyone telling me.

00:57:22.580 And we also do a lot of like story adventure stuff,

00:57:27.320 adventure concept generation.

00:57:29.100 Just have fun with it.

00:57:30.760 It's delightful.

00:57:32.060 Yeah.

00:57:33.620 bye bye well this this one's gonna be spicy we'll see we'll see um i love you very much

00:57:42.280 you're an amazing woman thank you for being married to me another day i love you so much

00:57:46.200 thank you for trying to be cute you're good at it for your age of course which is something

00:57:51.160 we'll be talking about in this episode oh fantastic great okay wonderful i love my life

00:57:56.840 so too dark all right don't eat pine cones oh thank you

00:58:26.840 yeah thank you titan can you put them in the basket for us

00:58:35.400 yeah toasty lots of flowers up ahead let's keep going

Based Camp - September 04, 2026

Why Do 10⧸10 Top VTubers Look Like Children？

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