Human Events Daily with Jack Posobiec - DAY 4： PRE-TRIAL HEARING FOR THE MURDER OF CHARLIE KIRK

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, it's Jack. I wanted to let you know that we're starting a new push for subscriptions here on Human Events Daily.

00:00:09.340 So make sure that when you're listening to this podcast, you hit subscribe, you download it, and you share it with five of your friends.

00:00:16.720 Make sure they're all going and downloading as well, because we need to get the signal out as much as possible.

00:00:22.440 Look, we've done so much over the past couple of years since this show started, and we're only going to do so much more.

00:00:29.600 Let's get it.

00:00:30.540 And once again, we'll remind you that in the courtroom right now,

00:00:33.480 the court is listening to or viewing evidence that the judge has determined is viewable

00:00:38.180 or consumed only by the courtroom itself, not by the live stream camera and the feed that we see now.

00:00:44.500 Benny, just real quick before we hopefully will get the audio back because they're kind of coming in and out.

00:00:50.240 It's been a big day so far.

00:00:52.060 I mean, we're seeing the video testimony of Lance Twiggs.

00:00:55.520 Today is all about Lance Twiggs.

00:00:57.280 And my initial thoughts just in watching that video is a compliant person, someone who seems to be very forthright, very truthful, doesn't seem like he's hiding anything for all that all the conspiracies that have been around Lance Swiggs.

00:01:10.300 Who is he? Is he transitioning this and that? That aside, what I see is a compliant witness. How do you see it?

00:01:16.640 No, he seems like a very stable minded person and just watching him cooperate with law enforcement and not hold anything back.

00:01:22.760 He didn't look nervous, didn't look scared. He looked like he was just being forthright with

00:01:26.780 the information that he had. And, you know, I think there's been a lot of questions surrounding

00:01:30.540 this Lance Twiggs guy. You know, he's this transgender. He's, you know, he's mentally

00:01:34.400 this and mentally that. But even the text messages that were shown between him and Robinson,

00:01:40.540 you know, Twiggs seems like more of the normal one, if I have to say so myself. So, I mean,

00:01:46.260 this, I have really no words at this exact moment. I mean, today is huge, Beau.

00:01:50.600 Yeah, and one key piece of evidence or admission in that video exchange is Tyler Robinson asking for a Dremel, which I had never really heard of before, but it's a tool that's used to engrave bullets.

00:02:04.660 And Tyler said it's for an upcoming camping and hunting trip.

00:02:07.480 That's how he described it.

00:02:08.840 Not many people would want a tool like that to engrave a bullet.

00:02:11.720 It seems a bit strange, all things considered.

00:02:15.120 I thought that was strange.

00:02:17.140 You know, Benny, if we're able to later in the show with some of our guests, I'd love to get into some of the Reddit and Discord culture that is really being talked about right now.

00:02:25.340 Because I believe that is a breeding ground for where some of this radicalization could have occurred.

00:02:29.460 But as you just said, it almost makes Lance Twiggs seem the more rational one of the two, all things considered.

00:02:37.880 Well, you know, Lance Twiggs even said that, you know, he doesn't really follow politics and he doesn't really talk about politics and any of these things.

00:02:45.400 And then, you know, he says that Robinson never mentioned Charlie Kirk, but mentioned Donald Trump a lot.

00:02:52.640 And so, I mean, Twix just seems like he was almost like, what are you doing?

00:02:56.140 Is this real?

00:02:57.060 Did you actually do this?

00:02:58.300 I mean, these text messages are so incriminating, Beau.

00:03:01.020 I mean, he said he left early in the morning.

00:03:03.240 The engraving of the bullets, frequently talking about the president.

00:03:07.340 And so Robinson just seemed very obsessed, if I have to say so myself.

00:03:11.020 Yeah, and if you look at the compendium of the evidence, and of course, we've seen the movements of Tyler Robinson, which, by the way, I do want to clue you in that Kevin Posobiec, we're putting together this montage of footage that you're going to see later on tonight where Kevin walks the steps of Tyler Robinson through the UVU campus.

00:03:28.560 That's an exclusive that we'll be giving to you later tonight.

00:03:30.800 Make sure you tune into that.

00:03:31.960 I make sure I want to plug that because it's a pretty cool compilation of footage of Kevin walking the steps of Tyler Robinson.

00:03:39.140 But these text messages that we've heard about, Benny, but now we're seeing them admitted as evidence.

00:03:45.080 And I just want to read some of it, too.

00:03:46.580 But Tyler saying to Lance, got to grab my rifle still.

00:03:51.000 And Lance Twig saying, are you the one who did it?

00:03:53.260 Tyler said, I am.

00:03:54.640 I'm sorry.

00:03:55.800 He said I had to leave the gun in a bush.

00:03:58.200 What's also very interesting to me, Benny, is Tyler being more concerned about the missing rifle for his father's sake, his family's sake,

00:04:07.200 than he is about just murdering Charlie Kirk. That's a very odd thing, psychologically speaking.

00:04:13.840 No. And then one of the things that I found very interesting is he's talks about how his dad was

00:04:18.660 worried that this gun wasn't going to suffice on the hunting trip. And he said, I think it'll do

00:04:23.640 just fine if it, you know, if today was any indication, I mean, these text messages, the

00:04:28.040 fact that he would say this, I mean, and then, and then think that deleting the text messages

00:04:32.740 is going to get him out of this and that he was going to drive four hours and be perfectly fine

00:04:36.700 and keep this till an old age. Yeah. He, he thought wrong. Yeah. And here's something else

00:04:41.960 that's interesting is I like just popping into my head is for, for all of the conjecture that

00:04:45.780 we've had about Lance twigs, Tyler was telling him, delete this thread, delete these messages,

00:04:50.620 delete it. And these are lovers, right? These are people who've been in a relationship and you have

00:04:54.660 to think of two people who love each other. Uh, we can plenty of conjecture about what love makes

00:04:59.660 people do, but he didn't delete them. Not only did he not delete them, Tyler says, don't speak

00:05:05.160 to the media, don't speak to someone, don't speak to the police. He does. Not only did he save those

00:05:10.080 text messages, but he also saved, he took a picture of the note that Tyler left under the

00:05:15.800 keyboard. So all things considered, you have to look at Lance Twiggs as someone who has been

00:05:20.720 really pivotal in, in, in, in putting this case squarely on the shoulders of Tyler Robinson. Now

00:05:26.380 to what degree Lance Twiggs was compliant, we don't know. You know, I think, you know, we talk

00:05:29.940 about the DNA that's on the screwdriver, that's on the towel with the gun in it. Uh, who knows

00:05:34.800 why and how much of Twig's DNA is on that. It seems proportionally it was more Robinson.

00:05:39.220 But at the same time, you've got someone who easily could have deleted those texts,

00:05:43.120 easily could have gotten rid of evidence and didn't, and still complied with law enforcement.

00:05:46.720 We don't know what kind of a deal he got. We don't know what kind of immunity he's been given.

00:05:50.940 But thus far, Lance Twig's testimony and the evidence being brought forth

00:05:55.120 is incredibly damning to the defense's case.

00:05:58.580 Well, I think at the beginning of all of this, the media even kind of put a focus on Lance Twig's

00:06:04.280 this. Maybe he was the one that encouraged Robinson to do this. But now looking at this stuff,

00:06:09.580 it's almost like Twigs, I mean, after this happened, didn't agree with this and didn't

00:06:15.400 understand why Robinson did it and almost maybe created some doubt in Robinson's mind. Like,

00:06:19.820 oh my gosh, why did I do this? I shouldn't have done this. Like he thought he was doing this for

00:06:24.940 his lover, but in the end, his lover didn't ask him to do this, didn't tell him to do this. And

00:06:30.340 And who knows if he even followed Charlie Kirk.

00:06:32.340 And so there's so many questions that still need to be answered as to the involvement.

00:06:36.820 And, you know, going back to the DNA, we saw that Twigs' DNA was also on this stuff.

00:06:41.320 Was it because of the shared appliances in the house and Twigs telling Robinson where that engraver was?

00:06:47.360 I mean, there's just so many questions, Bo.

00:06:49.760 But overall, the blame is on Robinson on this one.

00:06:52.880 Well, there's no question about that.

00:06:54.560 And I do, you know, I don't know if we have any audio from the courtroom yet.

00:06:57.520 And guys in the control room, please tell me if it does come back.

00:06:59.640 We don't.

00:06:59.980 Okay. So, well, Benny, let's just, if we have some guests later, that would be great. But I do

00:07:04.160 want to kind of recap how we got to where we are right now, because there was a very, very lengthy

00:07:08.480 debate yesterday about whether the video statement from Lance Twiggs would be admitted. And it was,

00:07:13.620 just so people understand, it was admitted to the court, meaning to Judge Graff there,

00:07:17.140 in full, unredacted, completely unedited version is in front of the court for him to make the

00:07:23.340 eventual determination about probable cause. However, due to some of the defense's objections,

00:07:28.920 a heavily redacted version, the one that we just saw just under an hour ago,

00:07:32.520 was presented both in the court and to the public.

00:07:35.160 And so Judge Graff, you know, it's a redacted version,

00:07:38.420 but you have this motion, Benny, from Erica Kirk that was filed and her personal attorney.

00:07:43.760 And she wants all exhibits to be made public because they've waited 10 months for this trial

00:07:48.420 and she wants everything to be put out there.

00:07:50.680 She wants to see, her attorney said, we want to see everything that you see, Judge Graff.

00:07:55.420 And so what Judge Graff said, and I think this is important because this is how our legal system works, that there are three tiers that Judge Graff has to consider in terms of consumption.

00:08:05.860 One is for the court itself, and when I say court, I mean Judge Graff himself, to make his determination.

00:08:10.940 Then you have two, the gallery in the courtroom, which is why we're not hearing some of the testimony right now.

00:08:15.380 And number three is the public at large and the live stream.

00:08:18.500 So those are the three tiers that Judge Graff talks about in making his rulings.

00:08:22.520 And as we're seeing now, some of that evidence is being presented only to himself, the unredacted version.

00:08:28.060 Some of it, okay, okay, one second, let me just finish the thought.

00:08:31.080 The second tier is for the courtroom itself, and the third is for us to view.

00:08:34.360 It sounds like we're able to get some more testimony now, so let's take a listen in.

00:08:37.900 5.1 to be admitted into evidence for full consideration by this court, and so that is received.

00:08:44.380 As it relates to publication and taking in consideration the arguments by Mr. Novak,

00:08:54.260 first noting the standing objections by defense that is overruled as it relates to the admission to 5.1.

00:09:04.460 But going to the publication, the court understands the argument made by defense that this is going toward perhaps religion and that the enhancement, and let me just read that from the information, victim targeting enhancement in violation of the Utah Code annotated 76-3-203.14 sub 2.

00:09:30.040 Tyler James Robinson intentionally selected Charlie Kirk because Tyler James Robinson's belief or perception regarding Charlie Kirk's political expression.

00:09:41.580 And that was also noted as an enhancement for count two and count seven.

00:09:54.580 The court is not going to engage. The court can weigh how this is applied.

00:10:00.040 but it finds it relevant whether how it relates to the enhancement is for the court to weigh as

00:10:08.560 it looks at the bind over decision and it's not engaging in that decision making today

00:10:13.940 but finds that it is relevant it is admissible to the court and is publishable to the gallery

00:10:20.620 as well as to the public and so if the state wishes to publish state's exhibit 5.1 it may

00:10:29.880 do so at this time. Thank you. Yes, we do.

00:10:37.460 Agent Davis, I apologize. I'm going to take you very

00:10:40.000 briefly back to State's Exhibit 16.1, which is the text thread between

00:10:44.280 Mr. Robinson and Mr. Twiggs. Kimberly,

00:10:48.060 if you could turn to page

00:10:50.260 17.

00:10:59.880 and because this has already been admitted and correct me if i'm wrong published not only to

00:11:12.380 the gallery but to cameras at large i'd ask that it be displayed in that fashion again

00:11:17.800 all right any input from any other party on that request all right thank you it may be published

00:11:25.440 and the media may pick this up as well agent davis if i can direct you to the very last

00:11:33.040 message on that page starting with if any if you could read that out loud okay uh this is

00:11:40.340 tyler he says if any police ask you questions um sorry let me start over if any police ask you

00:11:47.340 questions ask for a lawyer and stay silent my lawyer should be doug terry i'll see if he can

00:11:52.880 reach out to you and make sure the police the police follow okay thank you that that's all i

00:12:00.100 need from that exhibit and then finally agent davis you testified before that you flew down

00:12:08.040 to washington county sheriff's office and observed tyler robinson there correct correct

00:12:15.620 you got his name there yes you stated that you transported or assisted transporting him up to

00:12:25.400 utah county jail yes and that you were the booking officer that's correct do you recognize tyler

00:12:31.900 robinson here in the courtroom today yes i do if you could point him out briefly describe something

00:12:37.440 that he's wearing uh he's individual seated at the defendant's table in the center chair with a

00:12:42.680 a gray suit coat and a green tie

00:12:46.560 Your Honor, if record could reflect identification of the defendant

00:12:50.740 Counsel? No, Judge

00:12:53.780 All right, I'll note for the purposes of this hearing only that Agent Davis has

00:12:58.860 identified Mr. Robinson in court. Thank you. And Judge, if I can

00:13:02.860 just have a moment. You may

00:13:04.480 Ready to pass the witness, thank you. I don't know if now would be a good

00:13:10.840 time for lunch all right we'll go ahead and break right now for lunch uh for one hour well one hour

00:13:18.200 and five minutes let's come back at 1 30. uh we'll resume and we'll pick up the defense for

00:13:25.080 cross-examination if they choose for agent davis does either party need the benefit of the record

00:13:31.320 before we go on our lunch break not the state

00:13:34.400 no cross-examination for agent davis so i don't want him to wait here if he has other things to

00:13:43.520 do thank you thank you mr novak you no cross-examination may this witness be excused

00:13:48.500 yes all right agent davis you may step down and then we'll resume with the state on their next

00:13:53.580 witness court is now in recess all right and the court has broken for recess at this moment we

00:14:01.960 expect that to last probably about an hour as it has earlier in the week. Benny, I just want to get

00:14:05.960 your initial thoughts there. We've seen a lot. Of course, there are some things we did not see

00:14:10.300 in here because the judge has determined that that evidence will not be going out to the public.

00:14:15.200 And of course, we have to remind ourselves that this is a preliminary trial. This is not the trial.

00:14:19.800 I think it's important that we say that because there are certain things the public does not have

00:14:23.580 a right to know. There are things that will be admitted into evidence when the trial begins,

00:14:27.520 should it go to trial, which we assume that it will. But of what we've seen and what has been

00:14:31.460 made public, probably to those in the courtroom, we'll get a full report from Jack Posobiec later.

00:14:36.240 But also what we've seen just in the viewing audience, it just looks worse and worse for

00:14:42.360 Tyler Robinson. No, it does. And, you know, we are very chronically online, Beau. I know that,

00:14:49.540 you know, we are on Twitter, we are all over and monitoring constantly the political environment

00:14:53.900 and stuff. But the things that we have seen today specifically, I think really give a semblance of

00:15:00.540 closure to people who do have questions. And so I'm very happy with the evidence that we've seen,

00:15:06.060 and I'm really excited to get to hear from Jack about what he saw inside that courtroom.

00:15:10.760 Well, I think we have our guests ready. This is Marlee Hornick. She's a constitutional law

00:15:14.380 analyst and a litigation strategist. The perfect person actually to talk to, Marlee. I'd love to

00:15:20.780 get your reaction to kind of what you've seen today. Again, you know, we've seen the damning

00:15:24.580 evidence, of course, of what the prosecution put together in terms of the movements of Tyler

00:15:28.240 Robinson. Those felt very compelling, but I think everybody has been waiting on this video testimony

00:15:33.200 from Lance Twiggs. We know that we're only seeing a redacted portion of it. I'd love to know what

00:15:38.640 you saw in that testimony, and two, what would have been redacted that we didn't see that would

00:15:44.380 have been prejudicial, if you could take a guess, since we don't really know. Right. Well, I think,

00:15:49.760 Beau, the problem we've been seeing all along through this trial is that the defense's arguments

00:15:55.380 are exclusively to try to shut down access to evidence.

00:15:59.920 As you're noting with this video,

00:16:01.940 this has been a debated item since yesterday

00:16:04.320 when the prosecutors tried to share the whole thing.

00:16:07.180 And then there they go.

00:16:08.740 The defense starts to make an argument

00:16:10.600 that the information in the video

00:16:13.040 is prejudicial to the jury trial.

00:16:15.640 And this is the primary argument

00:16:17.040 they've been raising the entire time,

00:16:19.140 whether it was literally

00:16:20.880 what they were trying to keep out of the court

00:16:22.600 was the mission statement of Turning Point, right, so that there would be no possible prejudice to

00:16:29.180 the incoming jury that the motive formulated through Charlie Kirk's life's purpose as the

00:16:37.180 head of Turning Point couldn't be established. I mean, these arguments, well, all that they show

00:16:43.060 us, Beau, and I think this is obvious, I heard you guys talking, I think you get it, is that the

00:16:47.080 defense has no argument. There's no way to counter the incredible weight of evidence against Tyler

00:16:53.820 Robinson, including his own admission of guilt. And Marley, you know, you touched a little bit

00:17:00.780 on the jury selection, you know, in the upcoming trial after this pretrial. Realistically, what

00:17:07.480 does that jury selection look like with now we've seen these text messages and everybody across the

00:17:13.560 world, regardless of if they really know who Charlie Kirk was. I feel like people have heard

00:17:18.000 about this case in some way, shape or form. What does that selection look like from an analysis

00:17:23.200 point of view? Well, they're going to attempt to bring people in who don't actually follow the

00:17:29.280 news and are busy. Perhaps in Utah, they might have large numbers of children and be bringing

00:17:35.140 them to baseball games and practices and gymnastics and getting their homework done.

00:17:39.280 And, you know, there are people not like us who don't go on social media, don't follow the news and may not really have a formulated opinion.

00:17:47.380 And that's who the defense is going to be looking for. And that's why they keep making these arguments.

00:17:52.740 The arguments they're making, they are really counterintuitive to the way Utah runs this trial process.

00:18:01.020 Their state law requires this preliminary hearing to establish probable cause.

00:18:06.000 you cannot bring the trial without their preliminary hearing. And I guess that's probably

00:18:11.560 in light of what they like to call a judicial economy, I think is the typical term that's

00:18:19.180 used, right? They don't want to waste the court's time going through a lengthy trial that lacks the

00:18:24.920 proper evidence. So in the hearing, in the preliminary hearing, they're allowed to bring

00:18:30.980 in hearsay. They're allowed to bring in almost any kind of evidence to establish that there

00:18:35.360 really is a case. So going back to your question, you know, the fact that the defense keeps trying

00:18:41.380 to argue this is going to taint the jury, well, they're going to have to try to look for people

00:18:47.160 who are just oblivious. And Marlee, how would you find that? Because the way I see it, I've

00:18:52.340 been to Utah before, very, very red, very, very Mormon, very, very LDS. You know, you'd have to

00:18:59.580 be living under a rock not to hear about Charlie Kirk and what happened there.

00:19:05.000 My thought then would be, it's going to be really tough to find an unbiased jury, but

00:19:08.780 maybe the other element of this, which of course we have to know is on the table, is

00:19:12.820 the death penalty.

00:19:14.040 My understanding is that it has to be unanimous.

00:19:17.080 With Christians and Mormons alike, and people of religious faith, having some objection

00:19:22.140 to death penalty and needing the unanimity of that, is there any difficulty, if all of

00:19:28.380 them reach a guilty verdict, but they can agree on the death penalty since that count one has

00:19:33.080 that targeted enhancement charge. How difficult of a barrier will that be with that type of jury

00:19:38.580 in that particular region of that particular state? Yeah, it's a very good question, Bo. And

00:19:44.560 we, on that one, honestly, and unfortunately, we'll have to wait and see because it depends

00:19:49.080 on the character of the individuals who end up serving on that jury. And, you know, you raise a

00:19:54.160 very good point, which is, are they going to have the spiritual stomach to make that decision?

00:20:01.620 And it's a difficult one, I think. And you raise a very good point when you have that religious

00:20:06.780 viewpoint, when that is the basis, which is ironically exactly the opposite of how Tyler

00:20:11.760 Robinson clearly sees the world. But when you accept that every citizen or every human being

00:20:17.920 has a has a godly source, it does raise that question internally. And it's a very strong

00:20:25.480 threshold for a lot of people. It's it's a kind of a line in the sand, which is I, you know,

00:20:31.000 we condemn this person to life in prison, we condemn this person's actions, we may even pity

00:20:36.660 this person for their really, obviously, compromised view of reality that they're not

00:20:43.560 even experiencing how beautiful creation is. But will we actually take that step of saying he no

00:20:51.320 longer deserves the life that God bestowed upon him? It's a very good question.

00:20:57.720 Yeah, it's something I've been thinking about because I thought, you know, you get in more

00:21:01.740 red areas, and I think a lot of red areas, and I'd say Texas is probably one of them, Florida,

00:21:06.060 Tennessee, they're happy to go with death penalty because I believe an eye for an eye. And I think

00:21:11.100 the firing squad is an option in utah but when you get into the very religious red areas there is

00:21:16.340 this this this conflict i suppose now having talked with the man who has this hour usually

00:21:21.220 jack basobic and his brother kevin who are devout catholics they have no issue at all with the death

00:21:25.320 penalty and there may be a lot of people who feel that way when it comes to mormons and and of

00:21:30.040 course those and i'm not going to say everybody on the jury selection is going to be mormon but

00:21:33.940 some of them inevitably may be you have to have that unanimity to get that conviction for for the

00:21:39.280 death penalty. Now, based on what I'm seeing, and I don't know if you would agree, I'd love

00:21:43.320 your legal opinion. This is not the trial. This is just a preliminary hearing. But of the compendium

00:21:47.960 of evidence that we're seeing, I see count one target enhancement as fully being met. But I'm

00:21:52.800 one guy among what would be a pool of jurors. So what do you see? Do you see all the evidence

00:21:58.360 necessary there, even though we're not going to see everything? Well, I think that's what the

00:22:03.580 judge was actually just alluding to when he allowed the last document to be added to the

00:22:10.040 public evidence and to be shown on the screen, where that particular document, again, speaks

00:22:17.500 to motive. So I think that you're correct that count one is affirmatively met, although he did

00:22:24.720 say, and this is what we always have to do in law and in legal analysis, it's always judicial

00:22:31.280 deference. So he didn't say that he made the decision. He said that he allowed that it was

00:22:37.580 material and that it appears to substantiate the count, but he didn't say he's making the decision

00:22:43.120 and he was very careful about that. And that's just how legal analysis goes. You even see the

00:22:49.200 court itself is deferring to the judge that actually presides over the trial. Again, all we're

00:22:55.480 doing here is to establish probable cause. So the judge did decide that this particular piece of

00:23:01.140 evidence that was being submitted should be public. And he did decide that it mattered.

00:23:05.820 But again, he can't make the decision about whether that makes Tyler Robinson clearly guilty

00:23:12.460 at count one or whether that constitutes complete evidence. And that's, you know, that's just the

00:23:17.220 frustrating nature of trials in general and the legal process is you're never allowed to say the

00:23:22.880 outcome until the judge says the outcome. Right. And Marley, we're all hungry for the red meat.

00:23:27.800 Everybody thinks, you know, and would love for this to be a five-day trial.

00:23:32.460 The verdict is read, the sentence is made, and bam, we get justice for Charlie.

00:23:37.680 But we know that that's not going to be the short term.

00:23:40.400 It's impossible.

00:23:41.520 It's just not the way our judicial system works.

00:23:43.260 But you're a legal analyst.

00:23:44.500 You're this person who can provide so much insight on this.

00:23:46.680 We would like for you to hang on through the break.

00:23:48.240 Let's take a quick two-minute break, and we'll be right back more with Marley and for this special Justice for Charlie.

00:23:52.900 never ever stop fighting no matter what we will achieve american greatness we are just getting

00:24:02.920 started never ever stop fighting no matter what we will achieve american greatness we are just

00:24:14.520 getting started

00:24:23.740 Welcome back to Justice for Charlie. We have our guest, Marlee Hornick, a constitutional law

00:24:27.780 analyst and litigation strategist. Also, we have with us Benny Ray Harmony. Benny,

00:24:31.720 go ahead and take it away. Yeah, Marlee. So Jack Posobiec right now, one of the big things he is

00:24:37.520 on is, you know, Lance Twigg said that Tyler Robinson was going hunting and kind of, you

00:24:43.100 know, figuratively, but also literally, you know, we've heard about this hunting trip that he was

00:24:48.020 apparently planning, but now it's looking like maybe this hunting trip was a hunting trip for

00:24:54.220 Charlie. So talk to us a little bit about your perspective on that and kind of just what this

00:24:59.640 is like going forward with this wording and moving forward with trial. Sure. Well, it does seem,

00:25:06.360 Benny, like that may have been what he was alluding to. You know, you bring up a point

00:25:10.880 that I'm remembering now because one of the issues about the actual gun itself is that

00:25:15.720 if it is truly Tyler Robinson's weapon, the gun would be quite unique. He refers to that in some

00:25:24.080 of the text messages that were successfully published today and discussed, I think maybe

00:25:29.640 even within the hour, about how the gun he used may have been modified by his grandfather.

00:25:35.720 It was a family weapon, a family heirloom. So remember, if that's the same weapon that's in

00:25:44.600 custody. And there's no reason to think that it's not. I mean, it's crazy to think that there's some

00:25:48.560 other weapon because it was wrapped in a towel with him and Lance's DNA on it that the family

00:25:56.340 is going to have a hard time. And they already were participating in helping him to go turn

00:26:00.740 himself in. Remember, the family is going to have a hard time arguing down the idea that it isn't a

00:26:06.140 family heirloom and a very specific weapon that only Tyler Robinson could have used. So you just

00:26:11.800 made me think of that with the hunting illusion that you're making. I agree. It sounds like

00:26:17.120 that's what Tyler was referring to tragically, that he thought this was some kind of a human

00:26:22.520 hunting trip, a very, very disturbed man. And took a Dremel tool actually to engrave on the

00:26:28.620 bullets. And we know that there were engravings on the bullets. That just adds up. Marley, before

00:26:32.720 we let you go, just in a litigation sense, just so we're clear, anything that's being introduced

00:26:38.400 right now for the judge is all just for probable cause. We know that's a low bar. But it's true

00:26:44.100 that once it goes to trial, every single bit of evidence that we're seeing would also have to be

00:26:48.880 litigated once again in terms of its admissibility. Is that accurate? That is accurate. You know,

00:26:55.740 I want to go back to something you said before the break because you said you know this is going to

00:27:00.240 be a lengthy trial. That is not necessarily the case. This case has such extraordinary evidence

00:27:08.140 There is video footage of Tyler Robinson on the scene, his license plate, his car, his family heirloom gun, his DNA on the towel, his text messages, his discord chats.

00:27:23.140 The evidence is pretty overwhelming, and it doesn't have to take a long time for a jury to decide that.

00:27:28.980 Just to be clear, it doesn't always take a long time.

00:27:32.140 In fact, I was trying to remember the case.

00:27:35.160 It was a big one, and it was just decided in literally three days by a unanimous jury.

00:27:41.220 I don't think I'm going to recall which case it was.

00:27:43.460 Very recent.

00:27:44.340 I was just discussing it.

00:27:46.120 And so it's just an example of how when you really have overwhelming evidence, it doesn't

00:27:50.960 necessarily lead to a lengthy trial.

00:27:53.280 And I think you're right.

00:27:54.400 I mean, I think the common sense in us would say it should be very quick.

00:27:57.020 But unfortunately, our litigation system moves at the speed that it has to.

00:28:00.100 And I think my point was just, I think for Erica Kirk, the family and just the public at large, nothing could possibly be too soon because we want justice and we want it to be today.

00:28:10.140 You know, I think that's the thing is in our hearts.

00:28:11.840 We know that.

00:28:12.580 But there's just the legal system has to play itself out.

00:28:14.820 So I share your view and I hope that it will be swift.

00:28:17.900 Marlee Hornick, thanks so much.

00:28:18.900 We appreciate you.

00:28:19.620 Thanks, Marlee.

00:28:20.520 Thanks a lot.

00:28:21.840 And I want to bring in Jonathan Gilliam now.

00:28:23.880 Jonathan Gilliam is a former FBI special agent and a Navy SEAL.

00:28:28.500 Jonathan, just real quickly, because you are a former FBI special agent,

00:28:34.060 do you believe the FBI and the Utah State Bureau of Investigations did a good and complete job

00:28:39.260 that won't be undermined by the defense? Are you satisfied?

00:28:42.840 Well, I think they probably did a good and complete job, but will it be undermined by the defense?

00:28:47.240 I'm sure of that. So, listen, I think that the reality of this, from the time the shot happened,

00:28:58.120 and to the time that we are now, the evidence collection, the analysis, I think this has been

00:29:04.040 exactly the way law enforcement should have done their, do carry out any investigation and done

00:29:11.860 their work. What was bad was before the shot was taken. That was a complete failure of a threat

00:29:17.160 assessment and a lack of awareness on where an attacker could attack from. So, you know,

00:29:24.620 that part was a complete failure. But I think what we see with the investigators and how they

00:29:31.700 have systematically put together this picture of the movement of Tyler Robinson, of the DNA of the

00:29:38.760 weapon itself and where it was located and the video footage, all this stuff has really painted

00:29:46.700 a very accurate mountain of evidence that implicates him. And I think it's not just

00:29:55.480 enough to go to trial, but it's definitely going to be enough to convict him.

00:29:59.940 And Jonathan, you know, one of the big things that they're talking about during this trial

00:30:05.160 is that other bullet that wasn't shot that was found on a separate rooftop. Now, if I believe,

00:30:11.580 right, we heard one of the investigators say that it was an unfired bullet from an officer's gun.

00:30:16.700 or something along those lines. Do you see any issues with how law enforcement handled certain

00:30:24.220 little things like this? I know you said you weren't very happy with the planning leading

00:30:27.760 up to this event. Was there things that they did that are going to come out and in some way

00:30:33.620 be on the defense's side? Well, I would think so. Look, a lot of these universities, their law

00:30:40.600 enforcement departments aren't really up to par. I've seen it myself firsthand up close.

00:30:48.480 And I'm not sure when that round was how it got there or when it was there. But I'll just put to

00:30:56.560 you this way. When it comes to crime scene management, when it comes to the initial

00:31:03.140 investigation of any type of incident like this, if you don't have experienced investigators there,

00:31:10.600 They can taint a crime scene. They can drop things there. They can do these things. So it's very important to freeze that area as quickly as possible. And I just think that that's probably going to be something that the defense goes after.

00:31:24.960 And listen, when I say the defense, I can clearly see what they're doing in trying to string this out as long as possible.

00:31:33.100 They're probably looking for some type of a deal they can make with the prosecution.

00:31:38.260 But also, I really, truly believe that like warfare with drones and social media involved now, I think lawfare and the way that the legal system works is that defense attorneys are very in tune.

00:31:53.380 they're very in tune with how the social media rumors are playing out. And I think they're using

00:32:01.920 that in a lot of ways to convict the law enforcement in the court of public opinion and

00:32:09.720 mistrust. Jonathan, do you think there's any way that he cuts a deal that takes death off the

00:32:16.900 table? Because when you look again at this compelling evidence and just everything that

00:32:20.420 we've seen thus far. And this isn't even the trial. It's just a preliminary hearing. But based

00:32:23.920 on what you're seeing, you're saying you think they get the conviction. To get the death penalty,

00:32:27.520 of course, you have unanimity. But because of there's so much evidence, and maybe as Marley

00:32:31.360 Hornick said, maybe it isn't a very lengthy trial. Do you think death is taken off the table for any

00:32:36.780 reason? Because my understanding from criminal defense attorneys is you can take death off the

00:32:42.060 table and get life in prison, but you can't waive every single appeal ever. He could say he has

00:32:46.660 insufficient counsel and he can appeal, which he very well could do. So do you think there's

00:32:51.280 any instance where they take death off the table now that we've seen so much and we haven't even

00:32:55.880 seen everything yet? Yeah, I think it's always a possibility now with the way the legal system

00:33:01.880 works and these prosecutors, people just don't want to go to trial anymore. I mean, there's very

00:33:05.860 many, there's many, many reasons why that's the case. I mean, I think that a lot of prosecutors

00:33:10.540 don't trust juries anymore because the information is so widely disseminated.

00:33:17.140 And some of that information, obviously, is going to be rumor and gossip and conspiracy.

00:33:23.460 So I think, you know, I think prosecutors are always concerned with that.

00:33:30.260 And then also you have a lot of prosecutors.

00:33:32.600 I don't know these ones in particular, but you have a lot of prosecutors who are careerists.

00:33:37.320 And the last thing they want to do is lose any case.

00:33:41.640 And I think it's always safer for those careerists to take a plea deal and consider that a win.

00:33:47.800 So I think in both these circumstances and when you talk, or if they talk and consider what the Kirk family wants,

00:33:57.700 there's, I would say, a good possibility that once this is all laid out and the defense sees that there's no room to wiggle,

00:34:05.440 that they will ask for a plea deal.

00:34:08.640 And it's a good possibility that he'll get it.

00:34:11.360 Wow.

00:34:14.200 Jonathan, I do want to ask you about this too.

00:34:16.100 You know, so much was about Lance Twiggs today.

00:34:18.120 And this is something I actually really wanted to ask you

00:34:19.940 because, you know, I've interviewed you before on different shows

00:34:22.340 and you've got such a bright mind and scope.

00:34:25.220 When it comes to this internet discord culture,

00:34:29.760 and I'm thinking about, based on what you've seen,

00:34:33.180 is this a ripe ground for radicalization? Because I've seen some things about it.

00:34:39.180 I've seen how leftists can kind of, it becomes this enclave of anonymity, but it's also a

00:34:44.500 community. These are outcasts. These are black sheep. Lance Twiggs and Tyler Robinson have been

00:34:49.760 called black sheep of their family. So talk about the internet subculture, because a lot of people

00:34:54.320 don't understand this, myself included, of how that kind of community can bestow the type of

00:35:01.400 thing Tyler Robinson did, allegedly? Well, I'll tell you, this has been going on for a long time

00:35:08.060 with terrorists use this type of communication to plan and carry out attacks all the time

00:35:14.160 because there's, you know, they can really stay anonymous in that area. Speaking of anonymous,

00:35:19.600 QAnon, these types of conspiracy floods of fake information milked in with some

00:35:30.160 possible facts float in these chat areas all the time. I have good friends who have tons of

00:35:38.740 experience, but they don't even know each other. But I could call them at any point and say,

00:35:43.740 what do you think about this? And it can be a hot button topic. And instead of looking at facts,

00:35:49.200 they repeat the same narratives that they hear in these chat type of groups. And so I think

00:35:57.060 these things are a threat to national security. They're a threat to young people. They're a

00:36:05.340 threat to experienced people. I just think it's an area of operations for nefarious individuals

00:36:14.780 to either plan attacks, spread rumors, and build up their clout. And I think it's something that

00:36:21.800 wasn't there 15 years ago, but now is a huge part of the way society maneuvers and gains

00:36:30.060 information. That's a very scary part because it's not vetted. And I think when you add that

00:36:34.560 to the fact that these groups exist, these groups can exist to talk to each other, but the same type

00:36:40.560 of ridiculous gossip and conspiracy, it exists out there. And that's where these people get angry

00:36:48.600 and end up doing something like this and carrying out these killings. So it's filled with hate,

00:36:53.680 it's filled with gossip, and it affects both left and right. And I think it's a very dangerous thing

00:37:00.960 that is occurring. I have to agree with you, Jonathan. And as I looked at this subculture

00:37:06.020 to armed queers, SLC group, they may not be connected, but I'm just looking at some of

00:37:10.480 these different ancillary things around it. And it just seems to foment hate. And when I say foment

00:37:14.920 hate, I don't mean just hate. I'm talking about hate that escalates to violence. And I think

00:37:17.940 that's what we've seen here. So thank you so much. Can I say one thing? You're exactly right. They

00:37:23.580 may not be directly involved with this, but these groups, just like the influencers out there that

00:37:30.340 have these shows on YouTube and podcasts or whatever you want to call it now, they have

00:37:35.460 millions of people that follow them and live and breathe by their gossip. And I think these people

00:37:42.580 somehow, someway, eventually have to be held accountable for the influence they have in

00:37:48.420 causing people to do these things. I know there's been cases where people have talked to other

00:37:52.480 people into committing suicide. Well, that's exactly what's happening in these types of areas

00:37:57.120 where they convince people that it is bad enough for you to go out and carry an attack and something

00:38:03.200 has to be done about this eventually. You're damn right they do. Jonathan Gilliam, thank you so much

00:38:08.360 for your wisdom today. We appreciate you, sir. Thank you. You got it. God bless. And we have

00:38:12.520 Jack Posobiec, who is standing by with us outside the courtroom. Jack, I think hopefully you're able

00:38:17.360 to hear me. Are you, sir? Yeah, Bo, I've got you. I mean, I can't even imagine.

00:38:26.860 Ten months ago, a day like any other, Charlie's starting the tour out.

00:38:32.040 and then we get the message about the shooting we see the video and it's now taken 10 months

00:38:40.400 of our time to be able to get this evidence out and it's finally here we're finally hearing the

00:38:48.760 evidence directly from lance twigs the boyfriend of tyler robinson stating stating for the record

00:38:56.060 in court, in testimony, under oath, Tyler Robinson confessed to killing Charlie Kirk.

00:39:04.780 This is beyond, you know, we have the forensics, we have the text messages, we have everything,

00:39:09.400 but this is direct evidence in testimony, not from the government, not from the state,

00:39:16.160 not from the FBI, from Lance Twiggs, the man who was in a romantic relationship

00:39:23.380 with tyler robinson his boyfriend the man who knew him the most and what did tyler robinson

00:39:28.740 tell him he was doing that day he said he was going hunting he said i'm engraving bullets

00:39:34.860 because i'm going hunting yeah he was going hunting when he went to hunt charlie kirk on

00:39:43.580 that campus who went there peacefully who went there without hate in his heart who said that

00:39:49.460 He wanted to talk to other people and have a conversation.

00:39:52.360 And Tyler Robinson said he wanted to hunt him.

00:39:57.200 I'm very relieved that this came out.

00:40:02.340 The judge yesterday looked as though he was going to acquiesce to everything the defense wanted,

00:40:08.840 that he was going to block it, that he was going to prevent the world from seeing this.

00:40:13.360 And now it's out there.

00:40:14.540 Now it's out there for the entire world to see.

00:40:17.700 How, how satisfied are you with what was played publicly? Because I know there were moments when

00:40:23.320 we were in the show where there were bits of evidence being played that we did not see that

00:40:27.680 you would have seen in the courtroom. And I'd love for you to comment on those pieces of evidence

00:40:31.000 since we don't know what they were, but also are you satisfied even though it was completely

00:40:35.440 redacted with what we saw in the video testimony from Twigs today? Am I satisfied? I'm never going

00:40:43.020 to be satisfied nothing is going to ever make this right nothing not even if there's a conviction

00:40:49.600 not even all of it it's it's going to provide is it going to provide a modicum of justice yes

00:40:54.200 and we do need justice not just for charlie and in this case but all the groups that you were

00:40:59.340 talking about the entire ecosystem that created this situation from happening this hellacious

00:41:06.080 demonic situation where he's in these chat groups with people who are treating Charlie Kirk as if

00:41:15.900 he's some kind of mean, as if he's some kind of not real person. He's not a flesh and blood human

00:41:22.080 being who had a family, who had a mother and a father and a wife and two incredible children.

00:41:27.620 And look, am I satisfied? Of course not. But thank God, thank God that he sent the Holy Spirit

00:41:36.020 it down and that the Holy Spirit went upon that judge last night and said judge you need to do

00:41:43.240 the right thing here and you need to let that video be played so that the world can see that

00:41:50.420 the world can see the depravity the world can see the depths of darkness the depths of the evil that

00:41:56.900 took Charlie Kirk from us we need to see it the world needs to see it and we need to look at it

00:42:04.220 we can't turn away. We cannot turn away from this. This is the truth. This is the evidence.

00:42:11.420 This is from the horse's mouth. Lance Twiggs, and he showed us the text messages and we saw

00:42:18.120 the handwritten note and we saw the rest of it. But this is Lance Twiggs on video telling us

00:42:23.840 Tyler Robinson killed Charlie Kirk. So Jack, again, to go back to those pieces of evidence

00:42:31.100 that you saw in the courtroom that we did not.

00:42:33.280 I'm assuming one of those is the photo

00:42:35.020 of the handwritten note under the keyboard.

00:42:38.380 Tell me what that looked like

00:42:39.880 and tell me about any other pieces

00:42:41.420 that you would have seen

00:42:42.320 and the family would have seen in that courtroom

00:42:43.700 that we as a public did not get to see.

00:42:47.740 Well, look, the handwritten note is there.

00:42:49.820 It looks like a handwritten note.

00:42:51.240 We weren't seeing it close enough

00:42:52.160 that we could really read it.

00:42:53.780 Those words have been released a million times

00:42:56.000 so people could see that.

00:42:57.700 Now we have the actual evidence of the note itself.

00:43:01.100 We saw the Discord messages. Again, those have also been released. So what you're looking at

00:43:04.940 are photos of a phone showing the text messages, then the Discord chat, and then photos of the

00:43:11.460 letter itself. So you can see all of these things. And more to the point, though, you have Lance

00:43:18.140 Twiggs on video confirming all of this. He's saying, yes, I was in this text thread. Yes,

00:43:24.720 I was in this Discord server. Yes, these are the messages that Tyler sent us. Yes, this is Tyler's

00:43:29.840 account confirming this is tyler's phone number this is the number that i have him saved under

00:43:34.380 this is the name i have him saved under this is the screen name that he used on discord so again

00:43:39.320 it's it's lance twigs fully corroborating everything on video and that's why i keep

00:43:45.420 bringing it back to this because this is not an assertion that's being made by as the defense

00:43:50.640 would have you believe uh you know the state isn't just saying this the state isn't just making this

00:43:55.620 up this is the boyfriend the lover the roommate of tyler robinson confirming on video everything

00:44:04.460 and he was given uh use immunity to be able to say this because you can see there are instances

00:44:09.160 where to my mind and you know i'm not a lawyer but to my mind it sounds like he's almost talking

00:44:15.660 to tyler about how to recover that gun from the drop site almost like he's an accessory after the

00:44:21.920 fact by trying to help him recover the gun recover the rifle talk him through that and this of course

00:44:29.060 is why he wanted the immunity because in these text messages there are things that lance twigs

00:44:36.620 is confirming that seemed to me as if he was helping tyler after the fact and certainly gets

00:44:44.100 very very close to that and if you know if i'm looking at that just using common sense it looks

00:44:49.960 like he could be incriminating himself for confirming those things. That's why he was

00:44:55.400 given that immunity. But keep in mind, he could still be prosecuted because we've yet to even go

00:45:00.600 further. And I'm sure we will in the trial when we get to the trial that about what exactly did

00:45:06.540 he know? What were the conversations about going hunting that Tyler said? He said he's going hunting.

00:45:13.580 He's going hunting. Where were you going hunting, Tyler? Where were you going? Were you going hunting

00:45:17.960 on a college campus maybe maybe on top of the low c center it's i'm just i'm very

00:45:25.400 you look at this stuff and you know what he did and then to try to come around and say i'm so oh

00:45:30.040 i'm i'm sorry you're not sorry by the way he never says that he's sorry for doing it tyler in the

00:45:35.160 text message so he never says that he that he's sorry for doing it in the text messages the only

00:45:41.640 inference we have of that is from twigs and keep in mind this is the interview from april 20th

00:45:45.800 which is months and months after the shooting itself.

00:45:48.880 Nowhere in the actual text messages or Discord thread

00:45:52.480 does Tyler say, I'm sorry for doing it.

00:45:55.420 He says, I'm sorry I got caught.

00:45:57.320 That's what he's sorry for.

00:45:58.640 He said, I'm sorry I got caught.

00:45:59.720 I'm sorry I left a rifle.

00:46:01.020 I'm sorry I brought this on us, the scrutiny, the arrest.

00:46:03.480 I'm sorry we can't live together in this world of love

00:46:05.780 that we thought we were going to have

00:46:06.840 by eliminating Charlie Kirk's hate.

00:46:08.340 Again, by the way, he confesses over and over and over.

00:46:11.540 This is the many confessions of Charlie Kirk,

00:46:13.740 excuse me, the many confessions of Tyler Robinson for the murder of Charlie Kirk that we're seeing

00:46:19.140 here. But he never once says in text or in the notes that he's sorry for doing it. He just says

00:46:24.760 he's sorry for getting caught. Yeah, that's true. Jack, we've only got maybe 20 seconds more. Do you

00:46:32.160 think Lance Twiggs is as oblivious as he claims in this video? I think Twiggs is terrified of

00:46:41.800 being prosecuted. That's what I think is going on. And I think that he knows exactly what he did

00:46:46.320 and he knows exactly what Tyler did. And honestly, I'm just going to say, I don't buy it that they

00:46:50.820 never talk politics or that he never said anything about Charlie. Never said anything about LG.

Human Events Daily with Jack Posobiec - July 09, 2026

DAY 4： PRE-TRIAL HEARING FOR THE MURDER OF CHARLIE KIRK

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