00:00:55.380Were you able to determine at what time or times Mr. Robinson visited the UVU campus on September 10th?
00:01:06.560Yeah, we were able to establish that Mr. Robinson had been on campus approximately four times throughout the day, twice before the shooting, the time of the shooting, and then after the shooting later in the evening into the early hours of the 11th.
00:01:25.380Now what do we see? This is Mr. Robinson returning to the campus on foot from the
00:01:32.340neighborhood to the Northeast. You can see he's wearing the same clothing as in
00:01:36.100the previous video and he's carrying a blue backpack. Describe the clothing.
00:01:41.740It's a maroon colored t-shirt with gray or olive colored shorts and then
00:02:54.440And the state has created that problem.
00:02:57.900And this hearing is being broadcast to the entire jury pool.
00:03:01.540And that's what Mr. McBride just did, is he turned this case into whether Mr. Robinson's life is inconsistent with what Mr. Englehart calls orthodox Christian views.
00:03:18.040human events daily we're here live in provo utah our special coverage of the charlie kirk
00:03:32.240murder hearing and today is july 7th 2026 ano domini special shout out of course to our partners
00:03:43.600at Allegiance Gold who are providing security for us and for the team throughout all of the
00:03:50.620endeavors while we're here. There's more people now showing up at the courthouse, outside the
00:03:55.980courthouse. It's starting to get packed. It's starting to get heavy. The tension outside is
00:04:02.240building as is the tension inside. And what can I say? Sitting there just feet away from
00:04:08.200Charlie's parents Erica sitting quietly but you can see the emotion I had my
00:04:16.960rosary out other people had wrote the rosaries out as well Tyler Robinson's
00:04:23.440parents just about one row away there are SWAT officers all over the courtroom
00:04:32.800in the seating area, in the gallery, and then there's sheriffs up in the front area.
00:04:40.680And just on the other side of the bar, a couple seats, a couple chairs,
00:04:49.740and right in the middle, dead center, was the accused assassin himself, Tyler Robinson.
00:04:57.180And today in court, the evidencing that it's piling up, it's just piling up.
00:05:04.420There's the surveillance footage, the digital footprints, now the DNA, the forensics coming in,
00:05:11.600the 95% match of Tyler Robinson's DNA on the towel, then another 89% match on the screwdriver.
00:05:21.820Again, these are huge numbers that the FBI was putting up in terms of the analysis of those documents.
00:05:30.140I'm just going over some of my notes here, but this was a huge day.
00:05:35.460And the biggest piece, I think, that came out today was there was a Bible verse that the defense was very, very, very adamant did not be read in court today.
00:05:49.260because, of course, it speaks to the motive, the motive of killing Charlie.
00:05:54.760And, in fact, it was a defense lawyer who became very flustered when he was losing the argument.
00:06:00.000And he stated that the state is making it out that the motive was anti-Christian,
00:06:10.760the anti-Christian motive for murdering Charlie Kirk.
00:06:17.000I want to read that Bible verse to you.
00:07:43.640All right, folks, Jack Posovic, we're back live here, Provo, Utah, special coverage,
00:07:51.020Human Events, Daily Real America's Voice. And we want to welcome you back in to the Human Events
00:07:57.920special primetime coverage of the Tyler Robinson hearings. And we are covering, of course, one of
00:08:02.860the most high profile murder trials in the country. And when something like this happens,
00:08:07.100it is a reminder of just how much personal information is sitting out there for anyone
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00:08:27.100it's going to stay out there. Someone who knows what they're doing can piece together where you
00:08:31.920live, where you have lived, who you're related to, and even public property records. If you're
00:08:36.400politically active, you work in the media, you attend public events, or you simply value your
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00:09:33.600digital camouflage to your life and make yourself much harder to find online all right we're bringing
00:09:40.980now will chamberlain from the article 3 project to go through some of this legal analysis of
00:09:46.800course i can present my perspective from having been in the courtroom seeing what i saw but will
00:09:52.140is able to come in here as he always does and has been doing from hearing to hearing to hearing on
00:09:57.960the actual um on the actual the legal side of all this will how are you i'm doing great jack good to
00:10:05.780be with you well how would you score the uh the first two days of the hearing day one day two now
00:10:13.160uh this is this is just an overwhelming presentation of evidence uh by the prosecution
00:10:18.940i think the robinson defense as far as i can tell didn't score a single point that was relevant
00:10:25.640There's just an overwhelming amount of evidence of different kinds that all matches the basic story that we've heard for since 48 hours after the shooting, which is that Tyler Robinson did this, you know, managed to bring a .30-06 rifle to the roof of this building, take a shot and then get away.
00:10:44.360And, I mean, we have the combination of video evidence of him showing up on campus four different times, including a few times on the same day.
00:10:55.060We have the car that he drove in being registered to him.
00:11:00.180Obviously, you talked about the DNA evidence of the towel that the gun was found wrapped in, the screwdriver found on the roof in the sniper's perch.
00:11:07.980And we haven't even gotten to the text communications and the fact, you know, the involvement of his parents in terms of identifying him yet and the whole story of how he ultimately turned himself in.
00:11:19.800This is this is overwhelming evidence. It's surprising. It's surprising to me that the defense decided that it was a good idea to have a preliminary hearing.
00:11:28.280I think in their spot, you know, the only burden here that needs to be met is probable cause.
00:12:27.080And so we get that piece of information in, and then the defense spends, I'd have to go
00:12:33.960back and look, almost three hours of time just filibustering about whether or not DNA
00:12:41.660evidence itself, the science of DNA, can be used to match someone and the standards of
00:12:48.200the FBI lab at Quantico and over and over and over. And I have to say, I think the FBI tech
00:12:53.160handled herself very well. And to me, she gave a masterclass in, I guess what I would call
00:12:59.940positive demeanor, the power of positive demeanor in that she was never competitive.
00:13:06.180She was never argumentative, but she was firm and she was positive. She was always very polite.
00:13:12.640You know, she would sort of say, no, I don't agree with that actually. And she would walk
00:13:17.720through her reasons why but never snapped never lost her temper and clearly someone who's highly
00:13:24.860skilled highly capable and very proud of the work that she did so again to your point i don't think
00:13:30.780the defense scored points there i think they lost points clearly with the judge who you know i don't
00:13:36.260know if you could see on live stream as much but in person he seemed to be getting extremely
00:13:40.900frustrated with the defense oh i'm sure he was i mean the the idea that you know you're you're
00:13:46.620going to waste my time in a preliminary hearing. It's not even the trial yet. You're not talking
00:13:49.860the jury. You're literally trying to persuade me, the judge, that there's no probable cause. That's
00:13:54.160theoretically what you're trying to accomplish here as the defense. And your way of doing that
00:13:58.620is to try and tell me that DNA evidence isn't real and that DNA's technology is fake. And that's
00:14:03.640your argument for probable cause. And you don't have an expert coming up to testify to that effect.
00:14:08.860No, it's just you, the defense lawyer, trying to tell me about how DNA is fake. I mean, think about
00:14:13.860two things, right? Think about, first off, how many criminal trials has this judge dealt with
00:14:19.360over his career? I mean, he's probably dealt with dozens, maybe hundreds. Many of them will
00:14:25.660have involved DNA evidence. So he's going to be personally quite familiar with the science of DNA
00:14:30.760evidence, actually, because he's probably heard a lot of experts testify about it. And he's probably
00:14:34.960going to have sent a lot of people to jail on the basis of DNA evidence. So for the defense lawyers
00:14:38.560to think it would be a really good strategy to just attack DNA evidence as a general matter,
00:14:44.020as a general idea, and attack the underlying science of DNA evidence, broadly speaking.
00:14:50.100The idea that that would be a useful way for him to spend time is ridiculous.
00:14:53.520So I'm not surprised that the judge would have betrayed some impatience with this line of questioning.
00:15:00.440Certainly, and the extensive, extensive nature of it, bringing up textbooks, studies from 20 years ago.
00:15:07.140And I might add, and something that a few of us noted, that he brought up, I guess, a commission from the Obama Department of Justice that was pushing back.
00:15:19.180And I thought, my goodness, here's something for us to maybe dig in on a later episode to see exactly what the Eric Holder Department of Justice was trying to do in undercutting DNA evidence, because that's clearly what they were trying to do.
00:15:32.280And I I really did appreciate how the FBI tech just Amanda Baker just just really dismissed it out of out of hand.
00:15:38.600Those aren't experts. That was political.
00:15:40.800You know, it was like it was just just completely, completely rejected that entire line of argument.
00:15:47.520Yeah, I mean, I think that this is obviously going to go nowhere.
00:15:50.940And in particular, it's not going to go anywhere at a preliminary hearing in front of a judge.
00:15:54.600You know, maybe they can find a juror who's skeptical of this stuff.
00:15:58.280Maybe this is all to further sort of online conspiracy theorizing, giving something to the baying mobs to say, ah, you can you could ignore this DNA evidence and continue spewing your nonsense on podcasts.
00:16:11.100You know, maybe that's the point of these lines of questioning.
00:16:14.120If the audience is not the audience is actually the few podcasters and diehards who really do want to continue this narrative that Tyler Robinson didn't do it.
00:16:23.980I think that that might be what the defense is trying to accomplish here to sort of, you know, continue to muddy the public waters in this respect.
00:16:30.640But certainly I don't think the judge is impressed in the slightest.
00:16:33.540no and and and neither were really anyone in the courtroom that i spoke with and it it really seemed
00:16:43.860to be an exercise in what can we do to delay what can we do to obfuscate rather than actually focus
00:16:51.300on the very clear evidence that is now coming out and one of which and i i would love and i can't
00:16:59.060can't wait for it to come out online, but the fact that it remains to be seen that we
00:17:04.320now have 4K quality footage of Tyler Robinson, it's obviously him, walking around on campus,
00:17:13.060walking around on the day of, changing his outfits, and the judge didn't play it in court,
00:17:19.200but zoomed in footage of him prone in the sniper position, crawling across the roof,
00:17:27.300Taking the shot and then running back across the roof to jump down.
00:17:32.260I mean, well, I've been heard a lot of people, you know, kind of saying that people who are on the fence, that that footage, just the high quality footage of him walking around campus really started to change their minds.
00:20:35.680That's protectwithposo.com or give them a call, 844-577-POSO, and you will learn more.
00:20:43.220I want to get Will Chamberlain back on here.
00:20:46.620And, Will, there's so much that's come out in terms of all of this, the video, the surveillance footage, the digital prints.
00:20:56.080And one thing that I want to point out, there was something, it was just a little tidbit that Agent Hull had mentioned early on, the former SBI special agent.
00:21:08.100But one of the things that he mentioned was that, just a new nugget of information, but that Tyler Robinson ate Chick-fil-A prior to going and getting the rifle from the car and coming back to campus.
00:21:19.700Now, I'm sure that's something that people can make a lot of hay about, but there's actually something significant there, and it's similar to this report that he was at a Dairy Queen afterwards.
00:21:33.700Afterwards, if he was making purchases there using a credit card or a debit card that can be tied directly to him,
00:21:43.660which means that aside from just having this high quality footage, we can also see things like having his credit card and debit card, finding that digital transaction.
00:21:55.080We can then use those finances to say, yes, this was his card in the same way that having the police officer with that interaction late at night had the license plate, which was independent.
00:22:06.120And I guess, well, what I'm saying is, is that there are going to now be more ways to even further corroborate this bombshell video that's coming out in court today.
00:22:16.760That's right. You know, I think I didn't actually think of that personally, but yes, you're right.
00:22:20.660If he was, you know, any sort of financial transactions, which is as simple as buying food or buying gas, is going to, if he used his credit card or the credit card of somebody, his family, it's going to place it at the scene or, you know, on campus.
00:22:34.180And remember, I mean, he lives multiple hours away.
00:22:36.360There's no reason for him to be there.
00:22:37.780Why is he, you know, why is he showing up four times in a day?
00:27:22.840your live streams, which is normally how I really enjoy to watch these. So I wanted to say thank
00:27:28.600you for putting them out there. But it also, of course, means I miss your analysis. So I wanted
00:27:33.340to get you on here to hear how is it that you're sort of scoring these first two days of the
00:27:38.980hearing thus far? Do you think the prosecution is doing what they need to do? And what's your
00:27:44.480sense of how the defense is? Yeah, absolutely. I think that at this point, there's very little
00:27:49.840question, the prosecution is going to mean its burden to show probable cause to justify the
00:27:54.460charge. It's not a particularly high burden, especially in Utah with some of the just legal
00:28:01.440nuances that apply to the standard there. That said, I do think the defense has
00:28:07.280taken the opportunity to try to point out some open questions, some possible holes that may need
00:28:16.840to be closed or at least examined at some point in the investigation. So it's giving us a little
00:28:22.520bit of a clue about how they may be working towards generating a probable cause, I'm sorry,
00:28:30.000a case for reasonable doubt. Well, and that does seem to be what they're attempting to do. And so
00:28:39.340while that doesn't obviously matter in terms of the jury, because there is no jury yet,
00:28:44.040clearly it's intended for public consumption. And again, to your point, kind of showing the
00:28:51.680cards of this is going to be what we're going to hear more of in the evidentiary hearings and then
00:28:57.000eventually the trial itself. Yeah, very much so. And frankly, I think you're correct that a lot of
00:29:08.020what the defense is doing in this process is really geared towards the public perception of
00:29:12.880the case and the case for guilt, the possible arguments for innocence. What the defense is
00:29:19.360notably not doing is aligning itself with any kind of alternative theories of what happened.
00:29:27.100They aren't buying into like some of the narratives that we see online in the commentary and so forth.
00:29:33.260They really aren't asserting an alternative viewpoint at all at this point. And that's
00:29:39.200really not surprising because it's a card that they're going to want to hold as close to the
00:29:46.440vest as they can for as long as possible. But we are seeing the way that they are trying to chip
00:29:52.640away at the cracks. And in so doing, I think trying to shift the narrative at least enough
00:29:59.920to encourage prospective jurors to keep an open mind. There may not be full answers to every
00:30:07.740question at this stage. And I think that is an important reminder that we do need to wait to
00:30:14.500hear what the defense has to say before we reach definitive conclusions. But that said, in terms of
00:30:21.560the goals of this particular hearing and establishing the legal justification to move
00:30:27.420forward to trial, I don't think that's going to be a difficult question at this point.
00:30:31.760no it seems as though the judge is um you know is is playing it as fair as he can um in terms of
00:30:42.700what he's allowing what he's not allowing he's clearly allowing pretty much everything into
00:30:47.180evidence the question of course is uh and i think of you every time he says that uh something can't
00:30:52.620be shown on the uh on the public live stream i said oh andrea's probably scowling about that
00:30:57.320Thank you. Yeah, no, I think that Judge Graff has shown an enormous amount of grace and generosity towards the defense in this case.
00:31:09.260We saw this, I think, most notably this afternoon with the questioning of the DNA analyst. This was really an accommodation from the state to kind of allow this analyst to be called by the defense in the first place.
00:31:24.400And then to kind of permit this very extended questioning that under the specific rules that apply to Utah and the defense's right to present witnesses really doesn't seem to fit squarely within that.
00:31:40.300So he does seem to be exercising an abundance of caution to make sure that he is as fair to the defense as possible.
00:31:47.200And he's giving them ample opportunity to make their position known.
00:31:54.400Well, he is. But I would note that towards the end of the end of the session today, he really started pointing out the clock.
00:32:03.720He started reminding them that, you know, we're winding down, talking about, hey, you have now spent two, almost three hours going down the line here.
00:32:13.620What what exactly do you want? I got the sense that he was pretty much done.
00:32:19.700oh i think so too but you notice it wasn't a hard yank on the leash he did not lay down the law
00:32:27.220or stop the process or anything like that he really kept inviting uh mr burt to uh you speed
00:32:34.800things along wrap it up uh the closest he really got was um uh putting some limits on on some of
00:32:42.600the questions that that mr burt wanted to ask when mr bride would object and say all right i'll let
00:32:47.140you ask this one and then we're going to move on. So really, I think trying to always find that
00:32:53.120middle ground between what he really wants to do and what is going to leave the defense with
00:32:59.780the fewest arguments that they didn't get a fair shake in this process.
00:33:06.260Yeah, that's right. And I thought that Mr. McBride responding there did very well with his
00:33:12.120objections to speed things along saying, look, this is, you know, the relevance here is not
00:33:17.200germane to these proceedings. This is something for an evidentiary hearing. This isn't really
00:33:21.460what this preliminary hearing is all about. We're just trying to determine probable cause here. We
00:33:26.560don't have to have this whole argument about whether DNA science is real or not, which is
00:33:30.980clearly what Mr. Byrd was trying to do. But I also thought that earlier in the day regarding that
00:33:41.580that 1102 that Mr. Novak on the front of the defense team had argued against. And again,
00:33:46.620Mr. McBride presenting his his attempt to and really did, by the way, I think, overcome the
00:33:54.340objection regarding a certain 1102 statement, getting into the motives or potential motives of
00:34:00.940the defendant here talking about how how Turning Point has a a Christian mission, a political
00:34:07.980mission. And I thought that actually it was sort of interesting because it seemed like the judge
00:34:14.060was going to rule in favor of the objection at first with Mr. Novak, but then it almost felt
00:34:21.100like Mr. Novak kind of just talked himself out of the win and talked himself, just went way,
00:34:27.560way further than he needed to getting into these really philosophical questions of politics and
00:34:34.000religion and where does it all mix? And I think at that point, that's where he lost the judge.
00:34:38.880I think you might be right. I'm a Mr. Novak fan myself. I've reviewed a lot of his history,
00:34:46.760his practice, the work that he's done. And as a fellow defense attorney, I have great admiration
00:34:51.980for a lot of things that he's accomplished. But I do have to agree that I think Mr. Novak
00:34:57.740may have a tendency to be his own worst enemy sometimes when it comes to brevity.
00:35:03.060The problem is the more you talk, the greater opportunity you give, number one, the other side to think of their response to what you're saying, but also the judge's opportunity to kind of process it as well and come up with objections.
00:35:18.400I think the initial point that Mr. Novak was making, the state charged Tyler Robinson under one very specific aggravator that deals with political expression. There is a separate aggravator specifically for religious motivation. It wasn't charged. For whatever reason, that was the decision.
00:35:38.380And I think had he made that point and kind of left it there, we might have gotten a different outcome. But the problem is, is that just through the digging into it and the continuing to speak, it gave the judge a lot of time to start thinking about, well, but isn't there a lot of overlap between these things?
00:35:58.960And I think ultimately that's what led him to rule the way he did, is that it's simply not as clear and fine a distinction as it might be when you're writing it down in a statute on paper.
00:36:12.740and that was my that was my thinking as well and and it really you know allowed the opportunity to
00:36:19.740bring in so many of those questions uh gender issues and christianity and politics and marriage
00:36:26.280and all of these things that probably wouldn't have been talked about otherwise uh we're taking
00:36:31.280a quick break here we're on with andrea burkhart from andrea burkhart law this is
00:36:36.120human events primetime special coverage real america's voice
00:36:39.720I can say confidently, I believe, I think Josh Shapiro would be the vice presidential
00:36:57.920nominee if it wasn't for Jack Posobiec.
00:37:04.940You testified about Exhibits 7 and 8, that they both had mixtures.
00:37:09.720excuse me yes item seven and eight and you're testing the the of these items
00:37:14.640that they both had mixtures and you state I want to make sure I understood
00:37:17.960this you stated I believe that the minor sample the minor contributor was less
00:37:23.620than 20% and it was actually 5% the ratio is 5% to 95%
00:37:27.420yes you remember that yes does that mean the 5% was from twigs and the 95% that
00:37:33.420that 95% is assumed from the defendants be the Robinson when I calculate the
00:37:39.240statistic. Twigs' DNA profile aligned with the 5% contributor and Mr. Robinson's DNA profile aligned
00:37:44.700better with the 95% contributor. Okay, same question with regard to eight. I think you said
00:37:48.160the ratio was 11% from the minor and 89% from the major. Is that Twigs being the 11% and
00:37:54.180Robinson being the 89%? Yes, Twigs better aligned with that 11% contributor and Mr. Robinson better
00:37:59.340aligned with that 79% contributor. All right, Jack Posobiec back, Human Events,
00:38:05.720Primetime special coverage here on Real America's Voice.
00:38:09.220I want to say special thanks again to Allegiance Gold as well as Sov Media,
00:38:15.800our great friends over there, putting together all of the package that we have for supporting us
00:38:21.860and allowing us to have our security team and all of the production that we're able to do.
00:38:27.180So shout out to the SIGs as well, Parker, Rob, the entire team for affording us this ability to be here.
00:38:34.440And we're on again with Andrea Burkhart from Andrea Burkhart Law.
00:38:37.820She is one of the best YouTubers out there.
00:38:40.520LawTube, they call it, to make sure you go and check it out.
00:38:43.940But it is not for the faint of heart because she is going to give it to you the way she sees it.
00:38:49.500She does not take sides, and that is why we like her so much.
00:38:53.160Andrea, before we go today, you know, I guess one of the things that I wanted to ask is that, you know,
00:39:00.720Here we are day two. Tomorrow's a half day in court. I'm hearing I hear things in the courtroom, hear things in the courthouse that the people had expected to be further along than we are already.
00:39:16.580We've really only had three witnesses thus far. Do you think there's a possibility that this goes beyond Friday?
00:39:25.220It is possible. I would have said up until this afternoon that I would have considered them to be approximately on schedule, just given the number of witnesses that they anticipated and the time that's been allocated.
00:39:38.940But I do think that this afternoon likely came as a bit of a surprise to everybody in the courtroom about how long the defense was expecting to spend on this one particular issue and this one particular witness.
00:39:56.080I'm anticipating the court is already looking down the road to the defenses planning to call
00:40:03.480two other experts. And, you know, if they give them the similar treatment that they gave this
00:40:08.580expert today, then yes, we could be significantly behind schedule in terms of being able to wrap
00:40:15.520things up. So because of that, I kind of anticipate that we may see a tighter leash on that in the
00:40:22.940coming days, just to ensure that if at all possible, they're able to get things done by Friday.
00:40:31.740Yeah, I noticed that as well, because it's something where the, you know, the clock
00:40:36.220management is really coming into play and where, you know, clearly the prosecutors are wanting to
00:40:43.720present their evidence. They want to get it out there. They want to show it to the judge in terms
00:40:47.980of his magisterial role of providing, of getting that. And by the way, I really like the fact that
00:40:54.720this is done in a public setting as opposed to a grand jury, because a grand jury, that means all
00:41:01.240of this would be behind closed doors. And in fact, it is more beneficial to the defendant as well,
00:41:08.240because it allows for cross-examination, which doesn't exist in a grand jury situation. And of
00:41:13.260course, for those of us who want everything to be public and want this transparency.
00:41:17.040We are getting that at the same time, though, again, to your point that there really are
00:41:23.400these questions of the limitations of time and the fact that we only have two and a half
00:41:30.880I mean, when you give the defensive voice, they're going to use it.
00:41:33.900And again, Judge Graff is, I think, doing everything reasonably within his power to
00:41:40.600make sure he's giving the defense every opportunity so that they can't come back at some future point
00:41:46.620and suggest that they weren't able to make their record or make their case on on a particular
00:41:51.500issue. So it's it's not ideal. Time management is always a challenge in in the court process
00:41:58.420because you can't control what the other side is doing. The judge has a little bit more control
00:42:03.820over everybody, but even him, he can't you know, he runs the risk of violating important procedural
00:42:10.240rights if he cuts people off kind of arbitrarily or gives them a preset time and they realistically
00:42:17.100need more. So I think he's he's trying to walk the tightrope here as best as he can. But
00:42:23.640efficiency is always a concern in our extremely busy courtrooms across the country.
00:42:32.280No, it certainly is. And and to that point, you know, even given the high profile nature of this,
00:42:37.960it goes to show that there's still a lot of work that needs to be done. There's a lot of work that
00:42:42.860needs to go into it, and they are clearly doing so. What do you think that we should expect to
00:42:48.040look for in the next coming days? Well, what seems to be the way that the state is presenting
00:42:55.240their case here is they're presenting it kind of chronologically showing how the investigation
00:43:01.220unfolded. So they've already shown us the shooting, the scene, the kind of immediate
00:43:07.460response, the surveillance. And we've only just barely started to touch on the evidence that
00:43:13.840they obtained once Mr. Robinson did surrender. And then they were able to have the conversations
00:43:20.100with Mr. Twiggs. They were able to get the photographs of the evidence from the telephone
00:43:25.540and things along those lines. So I expect that's what we're building up to over the coming days.
00:43:30.880The question just kind of from a logistical standpoint is really where they intend to work in these other anticipated to be federal expert witnesses that the defense intends to call.
00:43:45.720They're always going to work around witnesses like that because they're flying in from the East Coast.
00:43:50.820They're going to want to accommodate that.
00:43:53.260So they'll kind of build the schedule around when those folks are available.
00:43:58.320And that's just a piece of information that we don't have.