Order of Man - BRETT BARTHOLEMEW ｜ The Flawed Leader Advantage... And How to Make it Work for You

00:00:00.000 Guys, most of what passes for leadership today is just polishing a turd, for lack of a better term.

00:00:09.040 You know, you say the right things, you avoid conflict, you perform confidence until you believe it in yourself.

00:00:17.280 And it might not be just you, it might be other leaders that you are required to follow.

00:00:23.100 But this episode is the opposite. It's antithetical to that.

00:00:27.100 We're going to be talking about what happens when you actually stop performing and start operating, start actually doing the work, you know, how to build relationships that are real instead of simply transactional, how to handle conflict without flinching or blowing it up, and why the most effective leaders aren't necessarily the cleanest.

00:00:51.940 they're the ones willing to own their flaws and use them for the betterment of themselves and

00:00:57.600 other people we get into the idea of this anti-hero concept and it's not that he's a villain

00:01:05.360 but he's also not a saint someone who's pragmatic enough to do what those moments of hardship

00:01:13.180 require instead of what simply looks good on camera we're also going to be talking about

00:01:18.500 credibility versus what Brett, my guest today calls performative influence and why so much

00:01:26.240 content today is loud, but hollow. I would even say obnoxious, but hollow. And we're also going

00:01:33.740 to talk about the stories we tell ourselves culturally, individually, and how they shape

00:01:39.020 whether we actually grow or just look like we're growing. So if you're tired of leadership advice

00:01:46.260 that sounds good, but ultimately does nothing

00:01:49.120 and you're in the same place as a leader

00:01:50.880 that you've always been,

00:01:52.540 you need to listen to this podcast.

00:01:54.340 You're a man of action.

00:01:55.840 You live life to the fullest.

00:01:57.300 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:02:00.240 When life knocks you down,

00:02:01.600 you get back up one more time, every time.

00:02:04.660 You are not easily deterred or defeated,

00:02:07.000 rugged, resilient, strong.

00:02:09.760 This is your life.

00:02:10.820 This is who you are.

00:02:12.260 This is who you will become at the end of the day

00:02:14.860 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:02:19.340 Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. My name is Ryan Michler. I'm your host and founder.

00:02:24.620 Glad you're tuning in. Good one on leadership. I've been a friend of this guy's for a very long

00:02:30.120 time. And I just like having real conversations that aren't performative, that aren't manipulative,

00:02:36.740 that aren't the rah-rah or the polished turd, as I said earlier, that you see when it comes to

00:02:44.320 leadership. This one is really deep, really meaningful, and very impactful if you actually

00:02:49.560 apply what Brett and I talk about today. Now, before I get to the conversation, just want to

00:02:53.940 mention my friends over at Montana Knife Company. We are getting into hunting season. It's September

00:03:01.360 16th. No, 15th. As of the release of this podcast, that means we're in elk season. That means we're

00:03:09.040 coming to mule deer and whitetail season. That means a lot of you guys are hunting, or maybe

00:03:13.560 even some of you want to learn how to hunt. And if that's true, one thing you need is a very good

00:03:20.660 knife. And if you don't have a very good knife, then you aren't going to get the job done as

00:03:25.540 effectively as you would. And I would suggest that you look no further than Montana Knife

00:03:29.800 Company. The founder and a good friend of mine, the owner of Montana Knife Company, Josh Smith,

00:03:35.780 just shot an incredible bull elk. I think, I don't want to say where he was. I don't know

00:03:42.520 where he was, but an incredible bull elk and used his, uh, his Montana knife, which is their,

00:03:51.600 not their fixed blade, but their, uh, foldable, uh, to break down the deer, to, uh, butcher some

00:03:58.360 of the meat. And I'm telling you guys, these knives are absolutely incredible. So if you're

00:04:03.700 looking for a good knife in the field, or if you're in the kitchen or an everyday carry,

00:04:07.960 Look no further than Montana Knife Company and use the code ORDEROFMAN, all one word,

00:04:14.000 ORDEROFMAN at checkout to save some money when you do. All right, guys, let me introduce you to

00:04:20.360 Brett. He is a bestselling author. He is a communication strategist and founder of an

00:04:28.500 organization called The Art of Coaching, which is really a consulting company based on performance.

00:04:33.600 They work with leaders across professional and Olympic sports, the military, healthcare, tech, Fortune 500 organizations, and with more than 20 years of experience inside these very high-risk, high-profit, high-performance events and experience environments,

00:04:57.560 Brett has built his career helping people navigate dynamics, manage difficult people

00:05:05.440 to deal with, and lead through change, not with theory, but with strategies that actually

00:05:11.480 stand the test of time with real pressure.

00:05:14.300 His doctoral research focuses on strategic communication inside, again, these organizations.

00:05:20.080 They're very complex and also very high-stakes situations.

00:05:24.460 he's the author of conscious coaching the art and science of building buy-in and in his brand new

00:05:31.920 book it's called the anti-hero advantage he throws out this one size it's all leadership playbook

00:05:40.040 that you've always heard about in favor of something more genuine more honest and that is

00:05:46.020 that you become a more effective leader by learning to channel your instincts and your doubts and your

00:05:52.460 failures and even your darker impulses with awareness and discipline. But you don't do that

00:05:59.540 by suppressing them. You do that by leaning into them. So with that said, guys, enjoy the conversation

00:06:06.560 today. Brett, what's up, brother? So good to see you. I'm glad that you reached out a week or so

00:06:11.980 ago because it's been a long time and we needed to make this happen again. Yeah, it has been. I mean,

00:06:17.020 I'm an old school Midwesterner, so it's always kind of just in me. I like staying in touch. I

00:06:21.160 think that's somehow gotten outdated today. But a friend of mine had actually listened to an

00:06:27.480 episode of your podcast. He's like, do you know this guy? I'm like, I do. And I haven't talked

00:06:31.340 to this dude in a long time. So I appreciate the fact that, you know, you're still not too big time

00:06:35.880 to answer the call. Yeah, I mean, I'm getting there. You know, I'm getting there. Give me a

00:06:41.780 month or two and I might be. No, I would never, man. I'm the same way. It's the ability to follow

00:06:47.560 up with people, to connect with people, to build relationships. I was actually just talking with a

00:06:52.020 friend of mine who happens to be our store manager. His name is Jay Jardulo, a good friend of mine,

00:06:57.140 been a friend of mine for years. And we were talking about some store order issues that we

00:07:01.440 have. And I know he's big into the strength and conditioning community. He does a lot of work

00:07:07.040 with Zach Evanish, who I know, you know, and the Sorenex crew. And I was like, Hey, I'm talking

00:07:12.820 with Brett Bartholomew. Do you know him? He's like, yeah, of course. He's like, well, I don't

00:07:15.940 know him, I know of him. So it's cool to be able to have the connections that we do. And it's the

00:07:20.800 power of networking, frankly. For sure. Yeah. I mean, and doing it, I would like to think the

00:07:25.500 right way. I think today people have so many transactional relationships and, um, you know,

00:07:30.660 some, I talked to even my six-year-old son about, it's just like, buddy, you're going to have

00:07:33.540 friends and you're going to have people, you know, and they're not always the same. And they're not,

00:07:37.380 you know, certain people that you think are going to follow through on things and, and, uh, you

00:07:42.140 have your back aren't always, cause he's kind of getting to that age where he has, you know,

00:07:46.020 that disappointment. And I think that it's really important more than ever. And a lot of research

00:07:50.560 backs this up. I mean, you're seeing it impact all cause mortality. What happens when people

00:07:55.520 don't actually forge deep, meaningful relationships? I mean, obviously I'm biased.

00:07:59.460 My background is communication and psychology, but, and you can sniff it out. I mean, don't

00:08:04.140 you think, can't you sniff out people like that just kind of network for bullshit reasons? And 0.99

00:08:10.040 it's oh hey brother and it's like dude i haven't heard from you in like you know forever and i'm

00:08:14.360 probably not going to hear from you until the next time you need something well i had i had a

00:08:21.480 situation years ago where i frankly i can't even remember who it was but he reached out to me he

00:08:28.700 sent me a text or a message and he's like hey matt like hey brother it's been a long time the same

00:08:32.800 thing you're talking about and and i was really excited to hear from him like oh cool like i

00:08:38.840 haven't heard from this guy for a long time i'd love to connect with him again and he's like let's

00:08:42.520 go to lunch i'm like yeah that sounds good where do you want to go and i think we went if i remember

00:08:48.640 right we went to the local buffet we did i think we went to a place called chuckarama and so we

00:08:55.220 went to this local buffet i'm like yeah that sounds good whatever and i get there and there's

00:08:59.520 another guy with him who's slick you know who i'm talking about yeah he's got the suit on he's got

00:09:05.320 the greasy hair he's slick and immediately i was like i know what this is i'm out yeah i'm being

00:09:12.840 ambushed so i went and sat down i shook his hand i said hey what's going on he's like hey this is

00:09:17.920 my trainer for prime erica or whatever and i looked at the guy and i'm like bro are you serious

00:09:24.280 and he's like what do you mean i said you're lying to me i said i came to connect with you

00:09:31.040 and catch up you didn't tell me you were going to bring your trainer to talk to me about your

00:09:37.600 opportunity to join your downstream and your multi-level marketing thing which by the way 0.61

00:09:42.640 i don't think it's horrible but don't fucking lie to me about it yeah right and i said hey

00:09:48.780 like i'm out you guys enjoy lunch together and when you want to catch up for real feel free to 0.97

00:09:54.840 reach out to me i left i didn't have lunch with him because i hate that stuff man i hate it

00:09:59.220 well, yeah. And I think too, and you can always feel, I mean, I know you will feel free to

00:10:03.840 disagree. I call it performative affiliation because now every relationship is content

00:10:08.980 and you'll see it. You'll see people that, you know, they, they like and support this,

00:10:13.140 or they do that, or they do this, but they're not like real people at the end of the day that are

00:10:16.980 actually in it for a real reason. And like, and a lot of it is status signaling. And so I think

00:10:22.920 the danger of that becomes, cause somebody goes, well, what's the big deal at the end of the day?

00:10:26.120 you know, everybody kind of stuff is going to be transactional to some point. I'm like,

00:10:30.200 yeah, to some point. But the big deal is, is the words we use like actually matter. And if every

00:10:36.160 dinner you go out to is all the most epic dinner ever with the best person ever. And such a great

00:10:41.660 guy, then like the, they lose that meaning to be like, you come over to my house. If all of a

00:10:47.720 sudden, like you're saying that shit, it's like, dude, you said that to like the last five people. 0.99

00:10:50.600 Are you going to post about this too? And I know it sounds curmudgeon-y, but I just think that 0.99

00:10:55.000 the the more quote-unquote connected we get with all this other stuff the less people understand

00:11:00.020 how to build foundational relationships and i don't know that there's anything ultimately more

00:11:04.060 important so a lot of performative affiliate what the guys say when you left wait did he ever text

00:11:09.280 you back no never heard from him again because i would be embarrassed too if i were him i would

00:11:16.200 have taken by the way i want to be really clear i would have fielded his phone call if he called

00:11:22.440 me back or texted me and said, Hey man, I'm sorry. That wasn't cool. Like I, yeah, I was a little

00:11:27.780 sneaky. I would have fielded his phone call. I'm like, let's go to lunch for real. I would have

00:11:33.140 definitely done that, but no, I never heard back from him. I think when you say something like,

00:11:39.100 well, what's the problem? You didn't say that, but you're, you're kind of communicating that

00:11:42.300 other people might say, Oh, it's the big deal. Well, the big deal is that nobody believes each

00:11:45.680 other. Right. That's what I mean. That's, that's the big deal. Right. If, if I can't believe that

00:11:52.640 you actually like me or that you actually have my best interest at heart, but there's a couple

00:11:58.820 things that come to mind. Number one is we, you can have a little bit of self-serving interest.

00:12:05.960 I actually don't think that's the problem. No, you, you can have your own desires and wishes and,

00:12:11.560 and hope and optimism for relationship i mean imagine a romantic relationship where all you

00:12:16.540 ever did was pour into the other person without any level of reciprocity it just wouldn't last

00:12:21.220 no but what we're what we should be looking for is alignment in our desires and as soon as

00:12:28.680 alignment happens it's like cool we can talk about whatever whenever however and we can be

00:12:35.620 self-interested but it also serves the other person as opposed to this zero-sum game this

00:12:40.920 transactional thing that you're talking about. No doubt. Yeah. And I mean, I think it's interesting

00:12:45.520 to like, you see where our values start getting off. When, um, I got a close friend that I talked

00:12:51.000 to weekly and he said, he never liked anything I post. And I go, buddy, we talk weekly. I get on

00:12:55.860 social media. I post my stuff. You know, I check what I need to check for business and I'm usually

00:13:00.240 off like my social media. I don't know about yours. Like I don't use it as a, it's part of

00:13:06.140 my business. It's part of who I am. I'll post things that me and my son do together. It's,

00:13:09.920 it's me as a real person. Um, and I just kind of asked him though, you realize we have this world

00:13:15.600 where people feel mad or not supported. If you're not constantly engaging with their stuff

00:13:19.700 as if it's top of your mind to go check all your friends stuff every day. And I said, listen,

00:13:24.760 you can have it one of two ways, brother. I can actually call you and be a friend in the real

00:13:27.960 world, or you can get mad that I didn't like some posts that I didn't even see that should not

00:13:33.080 bear at all on our friendship, you know, but like what we're talking about here is having

00:13:36.960 just real conversations. Um, and, uh, I think that that's a lost art too. If people have a

00:13:42.620 problem with something, they always feel we like a lot of my newest book is about how to deal with

00:13:46.960 conflict and not like, uh, Karen from HR feels offended. So what should you do? But imagine you

00:13:53.440 and I had a tiff and I, I give a shit about you. It's not that hard to be like, Hey, Ryan, 0.99

00:13:59.240 I care a great deal about you. I feel like something's off. It might just be me. I'll say

00:14:04.860 that out in front, but could we talk about it? Cause I ultimately would like to feel like we're

00:14:08.960 good. If there's anything I can do to show up better, let me know. But like, that doesn't need

00:14:13.080 to turn into a big deal, but people make it a much bigger deal than they do. Cause our country

00:14:18.340 in the world largely doesn't know how to metabolize conflict. Well, I think it requires

00:14:25.420 a little bit of just discernment and not just being agitated about everything. And I'd also

00:14:31.200 think here's where I think we get stuck is it requires something from both parties so if I

00:14:37.120 again we get into a little tiff maybe we're frustrated with each other about something who

00:14:40.620 knows and I say something to you that I'm frustrated about but maybe maybe I lack some

00:14:48.640 tact you know maybe I come across too aggressive or too harsh or too condescending or too opinionated

00:14:54.260 or I resort to ad hominem attacks or whatever number one as the person communicating the

00:15:01.040 problem me in this case i i should exercise some tact and also both have to exist you should

00:15:09.380 exercise some thick skin like hey this doesn't sound like ryan hey like what like this isn't

00:15:17.460 indicative of our general and broad description of our relationship so like what's going on and i

00:15:23.580 think both things need to exist which makes it that much harder to actually have a real conversation

00:15:28.860 with people no doubt and well and this is kind of why i always got frustrated in my career is and

00:15:35.820 and i'm trying to think about how to put this it's interesting ever since i transitioned more

00:15:41.680 into this space after my first book and leadership development and conflict resolution i laugh

00:15:46.740 whenever i see like some of these podcasts or social media things acting as if there's something

00:15:52.340 to say like a perfect thing to say so here's what to say if somebody attacks you or here's what to

00:15:57.500 say, if you want to be more persuasive as if there's a script. Now think about what you just

00:16:02.620 said, right? You can care a great deal and things still might not come across the right way because

00:16:08.580 of any number of things, the medium, emotions, environment, timing, no, no bad day. Right. It

00:16:16.560 could be anything, right? No message exists out of, uh, out of its own context. And so whenever

00:16:24.320 people think that there's, well, what do I say? I go, there's not one thing to say. What there is,

00:16:29.100 is you have to think about the greater context and then get out in front of it. And then just

00:16:32.480 remember like misunderstandings, the baseline, you can't read my mind. I can't read your mind.

00:16:38.700 So it's actually, you know, fucking miracle if we don't disagree and pardon my language, you know, 0.94

00:16:44.280 like, but that's the point of it is the point of a discussion and dialogue is to do that dancing, 0.94

00:16:51.220 keep the ball in play so we can find middle ground. There's not a magical phrase, but our

00:16:56.920 one size fits all society likes to think that there is. Yeah, that's interesting. I like the

00:17:04.080 concept of keeping the ball in play, but I also like this concept of, you know, not everything

00:17:08.360 is outrageous and not everything is actually even worth talking about. I saw a video on Instagram

00:17:13.980 uh the other day it was a it was a conversation that chris williamson was having with one of his

00:17:21.260 guests he's the host of modern wisdom and i like chris chris and i are friends i really like what

00:17:25.440 he posts and put out there and he he's he or his team created this reel and it was one of his guests

00:17:30.660 talking about why the 10 000 hour rule is bs i mean everybody's probably heard at this point of

00:17:35.700 10 000 hours that's what makes you a master and he says well i know a lot of people who you know

00:17:41.960 if you don't, if you don't, uh, spend time thinking about what you want to do, you can do

00:17:46.800 something for 10,000 hours, but if you do it wrong, that's why the 10,000 hour rule is BS.

00:17:51.140 And I'm like, okay, stop. Just stop. Please just freaking stop for a second. Like every single

00:17:58.320 person who knows that the 10,000 hour rule knows that inherent in the rule is the fact that there's

00:18:05.500 got to be some sort of intentionality and purpose behind it. Deliberate practice was the whole,

00:18:10.300 made a poster of course but this guy's pretending like he's an idiot like i don't know i don't 0.99

00:18:17.720 understand tucker carlson does the same thing he's like i don't know i'm just asking questions 0.81

00:18:22.560 when he's actually not really doing that and i wrote back and i said dude everybody inherently

00:18:29.380 knows that the 10 000 hour rule possesses the concept of deliberate practice like you said

00:18:35.820 intentionality said I've probably wiped my ass at least 10,000 hours of my life and I never really 0.60

00:18:42.480 once considered getting better at it until maybe I was down to three sheets of toilet paper 0.63

00:18:47.640 but like we all know that the 10,000 hour rule has the inherent quality of deliberate and

00:18:55.640 intentional practice it's just weird that we try to make a huge thing out of everything and nothing

00:19:02.080 well because think what they i mean i don't know this individual but in most cases you know i'll

00:19:06.320 give them the benefit of the doubt in most cases we live in a soundbite society and there's so much

00:19:11.520 content out there now that somebody's trying to make some contrarian take on a lot of pre-established

00:19:17.740 frameworks because think that's what the internet wants they want some soundbite where somebody's

00:19:23.080 delivering a new name for some kind of framework or a contrarian take and i'm surprised that guy

00:19:28.600 and say, well, yeah, it's not the 10,000 hour rule.

00:19:31.460 What I really like to think of it as

00:19:33.040 is the 100,000 blank minutes rule.

00:19:36.100 It's like, dude, this isn't new.

00:19:37.460 But I think people really struggle

00:19:38.700 to come up with their own original thought.

00:19:40.520 So it's just easier to take a contrarian approach

00:19:43.860 to something because then you can bite off that

00:19:46.040 and get people riled up.

00:19:49.500 Well, I mean, part of it is I had a conversation.

00:19:51.860 I've got an executive group of guys,

00:19:53.540 we all work together and we've been talking

00:19:55.020 about this concept of fractional C-suite executives.

00:19:58.600 you know cfos cmos coos etc fractional cfo for example which really is just another word for

00:20:06.960 part-time or freelancer but fractional cfo sounds a whole lot more marketable than

00:20:13.780 a freelancer or part-time cfo yeah yeah give me something give me some fancy nomenclature and all

00:20:22.860 of a sudden and like listen i don't want to be a hypocrite i had to come up with ways to make

00:20:28.420 my framework for my work and other people's work, and I'm sure you've had to do this,

00:20:33.000 you have to make it symbolic. You have to mean it. But like, it's something when it's clearly

00:20:37.600 biting off something that's been established, already been redone 13 times. And then it's

00:20:42.420 really easy too. I think, thank God there is so much content today because I think it's getting

00:20:46.940 a little bit easier and easier to see the people that are mailing it in. I mean, you can't hide

00:20:51.500 for long, you know, especially in today's day and age where like, you don't, sadly, all you need is

00:20:57.020 like a hefty dose of pragmatism to stand out because everybody i mean how long have we been

00:21:02.060 beat over the head now by this morning routine stuff and this optimization stuff and all these

00:21:07.620 kind of mythical things that are all supposed to have led to success for all of us in five steps

00:21:12.720 or less so i mean thankfully if somebody's listening to this that just is like is there

00:21:17.360 ever going to be a time where like non-sexy stuff is in vogue now i mean i do think it's now and i

00:21:21.560 think it's coming more and more it will be once we get offline and we start touching grass as they

00:21:29.900 say you know that that's when it actually becomes more significant and and meaningful you know it's

00:21:37.720 it's like the other one that comes to mind and and we're going to tie back into your topic in

00:21:43.040 your book because this is important but the other one that comes to mind is this concept of

00:21:47.900 intermittent fasting it was like i intermittent fast i don't eat till 11 i'm like oh you mean

00:21:51.820 you don't eat breakfast occasional eating like that's literally what that's the definition of

00:21:57.400 intermittent fasting you just don't eat breakfast like you eat dinner or whatever yeah and then you

00:22:03.720 don't eat breakfast and then you have lunch and you call it intermittent fasting i call it you

00:22:10.240 just didn't eat breakfast but it's got everything's got to be fancy and i think people are burned out

00:22:15.500 on it which leads to what you talk about the anti-hero advantage and and i'm gonna explain

00:22:23.880 it the way i see it and then correct me and and massage that a little bit but i think it's really

00:22:29.760 advantageous ironically in society today to just express all of your flaws all of your warts all

00:22:37.600 of your bruises and bumps and moles and everything else because everybody else is just so polished

00:22:43.640 that we just can't believe anybody anymore unless they're actually willing to tell the truth now i

00:22:48.940 do have a concern and one of the concerns is that i think and people are already doing this

00:22:53.520 it's the vulnerability movement the fact that oh i can just express something and use it as an

00:23:00.360 advantage to put me in a position of authority and it could go the other way too it's really wild

00:23:05.560 yeah well people make you mean people making a meal out of their so-called trauma right and

00:23:10.860 people go through shit without a doubt and it's all it's all valid in their context but yeah

00:23:16.540 what you're talking about too is like people just they make a meal out of it and then they think oh 0.97

00:23:21.320 well i can tell this story and and then it makes me a differentiator it's a differentiator it's

00:23:26.560 like nah and when i talk about anti-hero in the context of the book you know i'm not talking

00:23:31.520 about a villain or anybody that like does quote unquote dark stuff what i'm talking about and

00:23:36.100 you already hinted at it is it's a big issue in society now where we have this heroic ideal let's

00:23:41.180 say somebody's just like am i a good leader am i a good husband am i a good person we have this

00:23:45.360 heroic ideal that we're supposed to live up to a certain standard and standards are good you do

00:23:50.160 have to have standards but what i mean in the context of this heroic ideal is you gotta have

00:23:54.860 the perfect morning routine be squeaky clean you've got to have it all figured out be in a good mood

00:23:59.680 always be optimized and what the issue with that is is it's not relatable and it leads to a lot of

00:24:05.720 people who live in the real world, burning themselves out, trying to reach some overly

00:24:10.860 polished idea that's not even real. I mean, none of us know somebody like that, that literally has

00:24:15.720 it all figured out. And so my book is in a contrarian take. My book is just saying, listen,

00:24:21.840 a lot of what you've been told of what makes a great leader is by and large BS. Like even if

00:24:27.600 we look at like a Winston Churchill or a JFK, right? These people had tremendous issues of

00:24:33.180 their own. Winston Churchill was an alcoholic, if not borderline alcoholic, dealt with his own form

00:24:38.240 of depression. Lincoln, it's well known. He had severe melancholy. JFK Jr. had Addison's disease,

00:24:44.620 had his own kind of flaws with his relationship, abused corticosteroids and other forms of

00:24:49.700 barbiturates to deal with a lot of the pain of his Addison's disease. But we sweep that stuff

00:24:54.820 under the rug because we feel like it would wipe away this like patina. Oh, like what if people

00:25:00.200 knew Martin Luther King actually did this when in reality, no, no, that would actually encourage

00:25:05.280 more people, good people, pragmatic people, what I'm calling like antiheroes, people that have

00:25:10.920 dealt with the gray, dealt with their own stuff to step up because now they would feel like they

00:25:15.820 actually belong. So like the antihero in the context of my book is somebody that's just highly

00:25:20.720 pragmatic, a whole person. They're able to tap into the wide kaleidoscope or range of their

00:25:27.080 personality. Sure. Sometimes we have to be caring and empathetic and vulnerable. And other times

00:25:32.360 you got to practice a little bit of ruthless compassion and you got to get after some folks

00:25:36.100 and to, to cap that off. Cause I know that was long winded, but for me, I didn't have a lot of

00:25:41.880 books like that. Every book was like, and God bless them. They're great. Like I love how to

00:25:46.580 win friends and influence people, but I did not love like make the big time where you are or the

00:25:52.200 energy bus or things like this. Like that didn't help me deal with a manipulative person in front

00:25:58.820 of me and my own self-doubt, like charisma and feel good attitudes aren't enough to deal with 0.78

00:26:04.580 the bull crap that you're going to deal with every day. So I just wanted something that framed it

00:26:08.800 that said, Hey, don't accept yourself how you are, get better, but also don't, don't get tricked here,

00:26:15.060 understand the reality. And by adapting like this, you'll also be ready to deal with, uh,

00:26:20.020 mechanisms and things like that, that other people will try to do to take advantage of you.

00:26:27.100 What would you say about this? Because at a minimum, anecdotally, I would,

00:26:35.920 I don't know if I'm disagreeing with you. That's the word I was going to use,

00:26:40.360 but I don't think I'm disagreeing with you. But at a minimum, let me present this thing to you.

00:26:44.180 So, but I don't disagree with you. I think that is important as a leader to have that

00:26:49.160 human aspect of it. That's crucial. But it's interesting because over the years,

00:26:56.680 I've been doing this for 11 years now. And one of the common themes that I always hear always

00:27:02.000 is, well, we just want to have regular guys on the podcast. That's what people say.

00:27:07.640 We just want to have regular guys. This is a sentiment that is expressed to me all the time.

00:27:12.600 and I understand the sentiment. You don't relate with Jocko. You don't relate with Goggins. You

00:27:18.100 don't relate with Matthew McConaughey. You don't relate with Andrew Huberman. Pick your name. I

00:27:25.160 don't care. Pick the name. You don't relate with those people partially because they've pedestalized

00:27:30.380 themselves and partially because other people's society has put them on a pedestal they don't

00:27:34.240 belong. Not to say they're bad people, but we make these people heroes, and we forget that they're

00:27:40.720 humans i've had the fortune of being able to build relationships with a lot of these guys and i see

00:27:47.120 the good things and i see the flaws and i see that they're human beings and that's actually a good

00:27:51.020 thing for me but what's interesting is for every time i hear well i just want to hear from regular

00:27:58.680 guys i might have a quote-unquote regular guy on the podcast and they don't listen yeah they won't

00:28:04.360 listen nobody listens so because what do they want to hear from they want to hear from the matthew

00:28:10.320 conaghy and andrew huberman and chris williamson and jocko and like all these guys who are great

00:28:15.120 people i'm not downplaying who they are but it's a it's a really interesting dichotomy when we say

00:28:22.640 i just want to hear from a regular guy who i relate with but i'm not going to listen to it i'm

00:28:27.800 going to listen to this guy i don't relate with what do you attribute that phenomenon to well

00:28:32.080 two things and one i just want to be clear we're not talking about like the anti-hero is not hey

00:28:37.000 just be a regular guy leader but i'll shelf that for a minute and come back um i think what you're

00:28:41.940 talking to is ironic ironically is its own form of familiarity when you when you think of people's

00:28:46.860 behavior the most reliable indicator of human behavior is their own self-interest so even

00:28:51.980 though they say they don't want to hear from a mcconaughey or some of the names that you mentioned

00:28:55.840 to a degree a part of them knows what they're gonna get or they're wondering they're they kind

00:29:01.560 of like at the very least they know they're probably listening to a semi-media trained

00:29:05.460 person who's not going to waffle, or they're going to give themselves something that they

00:29:10.680 can hear that McConaughey or somebody says that they can disagree with and feel some

00:29:14.720 form of superiority.

00:29:16.300 Um, or it's just, Hey, this might be worth my time where let's say you had Paul Hamlish

00:29:21.660 on.

00:29:22.000 And I don't know if there's a Paul Hamlish.

00:29:23.460 It's completely ironic.

00:29:24.460 If it says they don't know that name, yeah, they're like, I don't know what I'm going

00:29:29.460 to get.

00:29:29.880 So I'm not going to listen.

00:29:31.160 Um, I mean, you know, there's people don't think that deeply.

00:29:33.700 The average person doesn't. So the minute they see a name, they just think, I don't know what

00:29:38.100 that is. That's not familiar. Give me something familiar. But then like you mentioned, they're

00:29:43.960 being contradictory because they're saying they want a regular guy or somebody they haven't heard

00:29:48.600 make the nonstop rounds. So they should want something unfamiliar. But I think it's a lot

00:29:53.260 of uncertainty of, they don't really know. And, and I'll say this, it's definitely not just you.

00:29:57.560 We quit doing guests for a while. And we had interesting feedback from our audience because

00:30:02.460 I was like, you want to hear just me like that? I don't want to hear just me. And when we surveyed

00:30:08.520 them, the, the sentiment was certain time. How do I phrase this? They're, they don't always know

00:30:15.880 what they're going to get with a guest. I mean, you know, there's certain guests will dodge

00:30:19.040 questions and they may not always mean to, but they dodge or they, you know, they may not get

00:30:23.360 to the point or I've had people on that. They just can't quit selling their own stuff. And by all

00:30:27.900 means, like, like you're doing, you're doing a great job of it. Hey, we'll talk about the book,

00:30:31.240 but let's do that we're having a real conversation the book's just a part of it

00:30:34.980 and so what they said is with you brett we know that at least you're gonna make

00:30:39.920 a topic driven episode and get to a clear point and that's the same thing there's a familiarity

00:30:45.400 there's a certainty i want what i want and i want to know what i'm getting kind of thing there

00:30:50.520 just gonna step away from the conversation very quickly um i want to talk with you about something

00:30:57.580 because we're talking about leadership today.

00:31:00.540 And if you've ever walked into a room

00:31:02.200 and felt this tension shift,

00:31:04.760 you know, maybe somebody shutting down,

00:31:06.580 that could be your wife or your kids

00:31:08.140 or a client or your boss,

00:31:09.980 or maybe somebody's overcompensating,

00:31:12.860 somebody's just trying to, you know,

00:31:13.980 keep the peace with you,

00:31:15.660 then you already know that these roles of leadership exist.

00:31:20.480 It's the enforcer, it's the rescuer,

00:31:23.940 and it's the anchor.

00:31:25.080 and most men default into one of these categories without ever choosing to default in one of these

00:31:32.640 categories it's all based on their biological makeup and their experiences and that default

00:31:39.560 whatever it is good bad or indifferent is quietly running your leadership your marriage your

00:31:45.000 friendship your business your clients every aspect of your life whether or not you're aware of it

00:31:50.880 and that's exactly what we're going to break down live tomorrow night in the war room again

00:31:57.420 it's september 16th it's at 8 p.m eastern and i'm going to walk you through how to identify

00:32:02.900 which role that you default into under pressure that's the most important thing what do you do

00:32:09.480 under pressure okay why the other two matter just as much of those roles and how to move between

00:32:17.280 them on purpose instead of just getting stuck in the one default that's been running and operating

00:32:24.560 your life. Guys, this is not theory. This isn't like hopeful or wishful thinking. It's really a

00:32:30.920 framework that you're going to use the next time things get tense at home or in your boardroom

00:32:39.720 or in your community. And I want you to be there. Spots are available for you. And this one is live.

00:32:47.200 It's free. It's available. There's no expense to joining us. I just want you there. And we want to learn about how to be better leaders as men. So if you go to orderofman.com slash war room, that's orderofman.com slash war room. You can get registered. You can RSVP. And then I will plan on seeing you tomorrow night until tomorrow at 8 p.m. Eastern at orderofman.com slash war room. Let's get back to the conversation.

00:33:14.000 yeah i i would agree with that i think there's this um well there's also social capital right

00:33:22.320 because we are so inundated with absolutely everything that what we do as human beings is

00:33:27.940 we start looking at people with the term i use is influence credibility and authority so you

00:33:34.900 obviously brett have influence with certain groups more so than other groups so for example

00:33:41.040 you have a large level of influence with your family that makes sense familiarity you're leading

00:33:46.980 them well etc etc you have a large sense of influence with the community that you've built

00:33:52.780 with the strength and conditioning community if i were to dump you into the blue-haired liberal 1.00

00:33:57.580 liberal female uh culture probably not a whole lot of influence in that area and so all the blue-haired 1.00

00:34:05.080 liberals are like who the hell is this guy and they will reject you not because of your 1.00

00:34:10.480 uh well it's just tribalism not because of your ideas but just because you don't fit the mold

00:34:16.900 and sure i get it i actually understand why we do that because i don't have the time to vet

00:34:23.460 every single person so i need to rely on other people in my community who i have respect for

00:34:29.500 to help with some of that vetting process so when a jordan peterson comes on a podcast it's like oh

00:34:36.100 this guy's already been vetted we know what he's gonna say we know who he is we know what tribe

00:34:40.940 he speaks to and i'm good check understood totally and we we have heuristics like i and feel free to

00:34:49.260 use this when you market this episode i tend to most of the group that listens to me are people

00:34:55.160 that are highly pragmatic they've kind of been through a lot in life they don't like pie in the

00:35:00.300 sky like even when i market myself somebody asked the other day they're like we'd love to have you

00:35:04.120 as a speaker, we've heard about you from so-and-so, like give us a quick pitch. And just as you

00:35:09.720 mentioned, when you named the names, me using names is not me being derogatory. It's just giving

00:35:14.260 an example of differentiation. I'm like, well, listen, there's certain people that are going

00:35:18.580 to come in and do the trust fall, rah, rah, kumbaya stuff. And then there's other people

00:35:23.220 that are going to come in and do more of the militaristic, I'm going to shout at you until

00:35:26.580 you feel motivated stuff. We don't do any of those things. Like we come in, we speak about

00:35:31.860 the dark and messy realities of leadership. We get very hands-on, right? You're actually going

00:35:36.840 to do what we call social scrimmaging. You're going to deal with different kinds of role play.

00:35:40.440 You're also going to think, you're going to laugh. Our clients are people across 30 different

00:35:44.700 professions. We have healthcare professionals that will work on different influence strategies

00:35:49.360 in negotiation against strength coaches, against first responders. And that's, again, going back

00:35:54.920 to like what we mean by anti-hero is not a regular dude, not like, hey, this is regular how.

00:36:00.020 an anti-hero is somebody who's actually had to work through learning how to know how to use

00:36:04.300 their dark side for good you know like they understand that they're going to deal with

00:36:08.720 manipulative people machiavellian people they don't live in a pie in the sky world like with

00:36:13.760 a can-do attitude is going to overcome it all they've had to overcome their own like conflict

00:36:18.480 i mean think about how many of us you and i both and your listeners and my listeners right we all

00:36:24.460 our own ego defense mechanisms some might avoid um in the book we we call conflict archetypes

00:36:30.360 there's the counter puncher there's the escapist there's the intellectualizer and everybody's got

00:36:36.480 their own form of how they deal with conflict and so an anti-hero is kind of somebody for sure

00:36:42.520 that's interesting you and what and and do me a favor don't be don't don't disagree just for the

00:36:49.520 sake of disagreement but let me try to ask you if this is part of why you counter punch and i'm not

00:36:53.760 trying to read you. It's a genuine question from one counterpuncher to another. Does any part of

00:36:59.640 that counterpunching come out? Let's say you're critiqued or criticized or what have you, just

00:37:04.100 general, all right? Does some of it come out because you feel like that person doesn't actually

00:37:10.140 know how much time and effort and care you put into something? And so it's like they're coming

00:37:16.840 at you for something superficial when you're like, MF-er, I've thought 13 levels deep about this and

00:37:22.940 you're coming at me like could you take your craft pretty seriously or does it come from 0.97

00:37:29.020 something else about it and i like the way that you no i like the way that you framed it i would

00:37:33.920 say yes but by knee-jerk reaction and this is going to be this is not going to be flattering

00:37:38.340 but i'll just say it is it actually ties in exactly with what you're saying you are inferior

00:37:45.720 to me on the topic that we're discussing and i and i know that doesn't sound flattering but i

00:37:51.920 think that actually ties exactly into what you're saying is like i've done the research i've done

00:37:57.100 the time i've spent this energy i've spent these resources i've gone through all the hardship to

00:38:03.240 get me to where i am i won't be lectured to by some sniveling snot-nosed punk who hasn't spent

00:38:09.700 any amount of time considering the conversation that we're even having right now so it's definitely

00:38:14.500 ego-driven but also i'm not going to be lectured to and disrespected by somebody who hasn't put

00:38:19.780 in the time I have. I would agree. Sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Great example. And so when we talk

00:38:24.940 about an anti-hero, I mean, I guess if you wanted to oversimplify it, it could be somebody who's

00:38:28.740 quote unquote integrated their shadow in the Jungian sense, right? They've done work on

00:38:32.660 themselves. They can admit where they've kind of fallen short, but they also see the world as it is

00:38:38.340 not as we'd like it to be. So they like, that's a whole point. Like somebody, somebody that blames

00:38:43.380 everybody else, somebody that it's never their fault and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And victim

00:38:47.860 mentality that's not an anti-hero no matter how much of a normal person you have to have gone

00:38:52.820 through your dark side owned that learn how to leverage that for good and then also in the book

00:38:58.380 like because the book split into four parts one is understanding how the world really is right let's

00:39:04.000 do a deep dive into human nature and i don't i don't know why pragmatism has all of a sudden

00:39:09.580 become synonymous with negativity like to tell people most folks are self-interested that shouldn't

00:39:14.920 be cynical. That's true. Most folks are self-interested. That's a huge part of human

00:39:19.920 behavior, right? And, and, and so we go into some things that maybe people have been lied to when

00:39:24.880 they read traditional leadership books. And then it's like, okay, well let's figure out where you

00:39:30.060 maybe are falling short. Where are some of the, like, are you a people pleaser? Do you deal with

00:39:34.160 a lot of imposter phenomenon? Not to insinuate you're falling short because you deal with imposter

00:39:39.020 phenomenon. Any healthy person should, they should have some form of self-doubt, but what do you do?

00:39:44.560 and like why do you do that own that figure that out let's work through that and we give them

00:39:49.320 frameworks but then also great now how do you deal with other people because you're gonna there's

00:39:53.520 gonna be so many different communication styles you're gonna have to learn how people some people

00:39:57.600 will try to take advantage of you through guilt through aporia uh they're always going to try to

00:40:02.560 use logic like can you actually figure out from a jujitsu or sparring sense like how what what are 0.94

00:40:09.080 my weak points here and so our the book and our work broadly are for people that have kind of just

00:40:14.140 realize, yeah, man, like you can't really have clean hands through leadership. You're not always

00:40:18.060 going to be liked. You're going to have to make really difficult decisions. It doesn't give you

00:40:22.520 an excuse to be an a-hole, but like you're going to have to, like for me, a big part of, I have to

00:40:28.220 learn how to be a bit more patient sometimes and compassionate. My default is to like, why are you

00:40:34.340 wasting time? Let's get this shit done. Let's move forward. And so just helping people become a little 0.99

00:40:39.720 bit more balanced otherwise how do you navigate the gray area you're very easy to manipulate

00:40:44.300 and take advantage of if you haven't done the kind of work that this book walks you through

00:40:49.320 yeah i mean i laughed because that's why you and i get along like we don't need to worry about the

00:40:56.700 fluff or the bs like we can just get right to it and also i like this concept of the regular guy

00:41:03.900 that we're talking about i don't know if that's antithetical to i don't know if that is the

00:41:09.180 anti-hero or antithetical to it we can talk about that but it's interesting to me because if you say

00:41:14.960 that hey i just want to have a regular guy in my life who i respect well i mean i had i sat down

00:41:22.160 with jocko a couple weeks ago at lunch we were eating like tacos or something i don't even know

00:41:27.560 like we were just we're at jujitsu camp together and that's a regular dude like he his two daughters

00:41:33.040 were there with him and they're wonderful and like clearly i was actually really impressed with this

00:41:38.380 he and his two daughters have a beautiful relationship that I had not seen before. 0.52

00:41:43.900 And they're silly and they're funny together. And he's laughing and joking. And they're talking 0.59

00:41:47.760 about family memories. And he's also a hard ass because everybody knows that of him. And I saw a 0.99

00:41:53.140 different side of him. And I'm like, oh, this is a regular dude. So either we're all regular

00:41:58.300 or no one is. And I'm okay with actually acknowledging either one. If we're all regular,

00:42:06.080 that means that we can do something great in spite of being regular if nobody's regular then

00:42:12.160 we have no box to put ourselves in and we can be as quirky quirky weird annoying funny successful

00:42:19.060 as we have a desire to be yeah i mean listen i i just think like balance is important right like

00:42:26.300 i i have this image right now it's my favorite thing in my office because i have different

00:42:30.860 forms of symbolism just like you do and uh did you ever see the movie logan

00:42:35.040 with you jack like that's a like a wolverine thing no probably not because i don't get into

00:42:42.160 the superhero stuff but yeah yeah so for for me you know and and one thing that i love about

00:42:47.680 screenwriting is i mean even if somebody could be the most anti-superhero person in the world

00:42:53.580 that that movie has nothing to do with that ostensibly right that movie that the picture

00:42:58.820 is wolverine's hand holding a little girl's hand and because that movie is about the same things

00:43:05.320 that make you ferocious right you've also got a lead like for him he has to learn how to love

00:43:10.940 and i won't give it away or people that have seen it maybe will understand what i'm talking about

00:43:14.780 but it's not worth getting into on this airtime like for him to become a more complete human

00:43:19.260 he has to tap into something different because his daughter who's in that movie she only knows

00:43:24.740 one side of herself. And that's absolutely ferocious because nobody's done anything but

00:43:28.480 hurt her and whatever. So for him to truly help her, he has to learn how to love. Or if you want

00:43:33.640 a more simple example, like the dark night, right? That's, that's perhaps, that is also not a

00:43:38.780 superhero movie. That was a movie by Chris Nolan, all about game theory. That movie is about human

00:43:44.300 behavior. And the whole concept there is no matter how many times Batman tried to beat the Joker,

00:43:50.760 Heath Ledger's Joker through playing by simple rules and rigidity and control, the Joker wasn't

00:43:56.100 going to allow that to happen. So literally it wasn't until Batman in that instance was like,

00:44:01.680 you know what? I'm going to have to be the bad guy. I've got to break my rule. I've got to do

00:44:05.320 this. I've got to become something fundamentally different. And so this is a story we tell in the

00:44:10.400 book about this surgeon. There's a woman who's a surgeon, real story. She's a preeminent nerve

00:44:15.660 surgeon in the world, or at least was at the time of this writing. I don't know how they rank that

00:44:19.800 if it's like college football rankings and long story short somebody who was on their last ditch

00:44:25.860 attempt to save their leg because of a severe nerve entrapment went to see her and if this 0.63

00:44:32.060 surgeon couldn't cure this woman couldn't help her she was gonna have to have her leg amputated 1.00

00:44:36.660 so she stops the surgery midway through because the surgeon is trapped like she can't figure out 1.00

00:44:43.240 she's stuck now to incredibly complex case. She goes and has her assistant take pictures of a

00:44:51.080 book, a reference manual, an anatomical manual comes back and literally was able to save this 1.00

00:44:58.420 woman's leg. That manual was Pernkopf's Atlas. It was written by Edward Pernkopf is blacklisted

00:45:06.600 because edward purdkoff was the head of medicine for hitler's third reich and the images within it

00:45:13.380 were thought to be holocaust holocaust victims the bodies of holocaust victims and even though

00:45:20.200 anatomically it was the most accurate drawing and it's been used by surgeons worldwide right it was

00:45:26.860 looked at as you should have never used that manual now the female doctor in this she was

00:45:31.600 certainly not sympathetic to the, to the Nazi party, denounce Hitler, all these things. She

00:45:36.900 said, listen, it is my job to do no harm. It is my job to save a leg. Like I need to use every

00:45:42.760 resource at my disposal. And it actually went in front of a medical review board, Jewish doctors 0.99

00:45:48.300 and preeminent Jewish surgeons from all over the world weighed in on it. And they said,

00:45:51.920 if something, even if it's born of pure evil, like this book was can be used for good,

00:45:58.140 it is our responsibility to use it and so this topographical atlas that to this day

00:46:04.300 no more accurate drawings of the human body exists could be used to save this person's leg they

00:46:09.800 could and so people can use it today to help people even in dire circumstances as long as

00:46:16.040 they get their permission ahead of time and so that's listen like this book speaks to like

00:46:20.300 what a horrible situation what a horrible choice to have to be made but what are you going to do

00:46:25.720 if you're Dr. Susan McKinnon?

00:46:27.520 Are you not gonna, this tool exists regardless.

00:46:30.140 And other doctors and surgeons we interviewed for this book,

00:46:33.360 we said, what would you do?

00:46:34.640 Where's your stance?

00:46:35.300 And they go, Brett, if most people knew

00:46:37.580 where medical research came from,

00:46:40.080 you would denounce just about everything.

00:46:42.900 There is nothing that moves anything forward in this world

00:46:45.980 that doesn't have some form of grisly background.

00:46:49.540 That's the anti-hero.

00:46:50.840 The anti-hero is somebody

00:46:51.920 that you don't have to agree with something,

00:46:53.880 you don't have to like it,

00:46:55.040 but you have to make the best decision you can in the moment to do the greatest good you can, 0.99

00:47:00.220 even when stuff is a shit show. So, okay. Well, let me ask you this. So then do the ends justify 0.99

00:47:09.500 the means? But what are we talking about? Nuclear war or in this case, using Pernkow's Atlas to

00:47:15.760 save a leg? I think, I think this case we would all say, you know, um, clearly we saved a leg

00:47:22.040 here she said we not we she saved a leg here and we'd say the that wasn't by the way that was not

00:47:28.920 her choosing to do those horrific things to those innocent people exactly okay so i would say that's

00:47:36.300 not a case of the ends justifying the means she didn't she didn't participate in the means she

00:47:41.600 only participated in the ends but there are things that we may have to do that are

00:47:47.640 viewed from history as maybe questionable or unethical or potentially even immoral

00:47:56.020 if the outcome is good does that mean it gives us some sort of pass for the way the outcome comes

00:48:03.620 to be or is there some sort of moral culpability regardless of the outcome in the way that we show

00:48:09.220 up yeah it's contextual right and that's what you balance being in like that anti-hero is you have

00:48:14.920 to deal with the fact that you're going to deal with uncertainty. I mean, that's one thing that

00:48:18.200 you know about life is you're going to deal with uncertainty and you're going to make, I mean,

00:48:22.020 the whole point of making difficult decisions, which is a part of leadership, whether you're

00:48:26.060 leading your family or a business is that not everybody's going to like them. And there's

00:48:30.080 going to be secondary and tertiary consequences for everything. I mean, most people forget

00:48:34.960 the Nobel peace prize was created by Alfred Nobel who invented dynamite. And while he was alive,

00:48:42.340 his nickname was the merchant of death he created dynamite to help with excavation and people used

00:48:49.420 it for war and killing people so it was in his last will and testament that his fortune was used

00:48:55.520 to create what now is known as the nobel peace prize when they created traction for tires you

00:49:01.720 know to help people have fewer car accidents that increases the amount the engine has to work which

00:49:05.800 increases pollution. Antibiotics have now created antibiotic resistant bacteria. So I think people

00:49:12.420 just have to recognize there. And this is one of the first parts of the book. We deconstruct one

00:49:17.260 of the leadership myths of a great leader always knows what to do. The hell they do. You know what

00:49:22.200 I mean? Like you have no idea because even the right decision in the moment to a point that I

00:49:26.320 think you're making can trickle down to be a horrific decision five weeks, five months, five

00:49:32.360 years later, but you got to do the best you can, you know, but we live in a world where think of

00:49:36.740 any good people, pragmatic people don't step up to lead or, or do whatever. Cause they're so worried

00:49:42.640 about the legion of decency and, and be, and judging them and getting outcasted. And what

00:49:48.320 if everybody doesn't like them? And that's not the point of life, right? You're going to, you're,

00:49:52.980 none of us are going to get out of it with clean. You have to do the best you can with the decision, 0.99

00:49:57.060 with the information you have at the time. And you're going to have to own those consequences too.

00:50:02.360 Well, I like the idea. I mean, certainly resonate with the idea of owning the consequences on a micro level. I say controversial and polarizing things every single day. Part of the difference between some people is I actually believe what I say. I think some people are just saying things to be contrary or to rile other people up. I don't do that. I actually believe what I say.

00:50:25.140 and yeah i've been called sexist misogynistic homophobic islamophobic i mean you fill in the

00:50:32.840 blank but here's the difference i don't care i actually don't care if you call me those things

00:50:37.800 because i feel like number one those are my opinions and number two i believe that those

00:50:45.200 opinions will move culture and even my small little subsection of it in a direction that i

00:50:52.520 think is advantageous and better for everybody even though other people will not agree and i

00:50:57.160 don't care you could not think about that it does not bother me right do you want your work to be

00:51:02.820 i mean it's funny when we chose the title for this book uh there were people already our

00:51:08.140 publisher was like hey just so you know this isn't going to be a bestseller and i said well

00:51:12.060 tell me your opinion on this and they said well there's a reason there's a reason so many of the

00:51:17.440 books that you're rallying against exist the five steps for this and the you know or basically these

00:51:22.780 books that are just ted talks crammed into a book because people want what we call prescriptive

00:51:28.500 reductionism in the book they want simple they want a beautiful lie you know and and then we

00:51:34.520 had to be very mindful about the subtitle chosen which has become the leader you're meant to be

00:51:38.560 when it was really going to be how to deal with chaos conflict so on and so forth because they

00:51:43.520 were worried that certain people would think that the anti-hero advantage sounded aggressive or

00:51:49.200 masculine or this, or people were going to think it's a graphic, not almost. Yeah. Right. And I go

00:51:54.680 double down, you know, like, I think they wanted the book to be called, you don't have to be

00:51:58.760 liked. And I go, no, that's not what my audience core audience struggles with. Most of my audience,

00:52:03.220 like you knows, you're not going to be liked, you own that, you know, but you're going to deal,

00:52:07.800 you're still, no matter how actualized you as Ryan today is compared to 10 years ago,

00:52:11.860 you're still going to deal with doubts and demons and manipulative people and power dynamics and

00:52:16.500 resistant to change great this book's a playbook for that this book is not an arm around the

00:52:21.180 shoulder being like it's okay rye rye you know don't worry about other people's opinions like

00:52:25.400 you can go buy a million books like that at the airport you know and so i told them i'm fine with

00:52:31.300 it not being a bestseller as long as it's honest but i think you guys are underestimating it

00:52:35.560 because it's going to speak to a lot of people

00:52:38.420 that are tired of prescriptive BS, superficial BS.

00:52:42.420 And this is going to give them stuff

00:52:43.980 that they can deal with,

00:52:44.800 whether it's a 19 year old girl

00:52:47.040 who's trying to figure out why their friends are shady

00:52:49.160 or a CEO trying to figure out, you know,

00:52:52.180 how to get out of their own way

00:52:53.760 to do what they need to do to make this decision. 0.94

00:52:56.620 Even if it is laying off 10,000 people, that sucks,

00:52:59.920 you know, but like,

00:53:00.580 you're going to have to do these things sometimes.

00:53:02.280 i i think why it's so important with the work you're doing is because there is a point and i

00:53:09.560 believe that more and more people are reaching it and will continue to reach it where we just can't

00:53:15.100 keep doing the same thing the rah-rah supportive it's okay right right type mentality is really

00:53:21.020 great until things go sideways until the irs says you have a hundred thousand dollar tax bill

00:53:27.220 or your wife comes to you and says i want a divorce or you get a dui or she catches you

00:53:34.040 watching pornography or you're unfaithful to her or your business partner screws you over 1.00

00:53:40.680 or somebody t-bones you and like fill in the blank with all the shit that we need to deal 0.99

00:53:46.420 with on a daily basis as men and i think we're coming to an impetus now where it's like you know 0.97

00:53:52.100 what's this whole like pie in the sky everything's wonderful everything will work out like you just

00:53:59.580 have to have belief is just not enough it's not enough it hasn't been enough for me

00:54:06.280 no and you give great examples there and that's why i made a point of like when i sat down to

00:54:11.340 write it i'm like this book has to teach people how to deal with internal conflict as well because

00:54:15.420 that's the root cause of you know so many behaviors and but when you think about what

00:54:21.580 so many of the best-selling leadership or self-help books have been, they position it

00:54:25.660 all as external conflict. Well, you have a bad boss. Well, you have a bad partner. You need to

00:54:30.340 escape this relationship. You need to quiet quit. You need to do that. What the hell does that teach

00:54:36.100 us? And so like, if you literally want to think, how can I become more adaptable? Because we're

00:54:40.980 always going to deal with change. Well, you've got to deal with internal and external conflict

00:54:45.040 and you've got to quit overthinking. You've got to quit escaping into whether it's drugs or alcohol

00:54:50.200 or porn or whatever you're, you know, and, and quit people pleasing. And you have to have something

00:54:55.300 that allows you to go back to it and be like, yep, I'm intellectualizing there. Yep. I'm,

00:55:00.360 I'm, I'm being a counter puncher here. I can understand where I'm the problem. Let me try

00:55:04.940 to own that. And then let me try to figure out how I can leverage this. And so it's, it's a fine

00:55:10.420 line. I just think that it's sad to your point that we can almost predict what is going to go

00:55:16.260 viral today. And that's so ridiculous. Like, cause all you have to do is go out with real 0.98

00:55:22.760 people and you'll hear them say, Oh, I'm dealing with this. I'm dealing with that. I'm dealing

00:55:26.120 with this. And before I never really had a book to recommend them. I mean, that was a fan of

00:55:30.560 Robert green. So I read the 48 laws of power and stuff like that. And I have deep respect for

00:55:34.920 Robert had him on the show, but like later books kind of got a little bit, you know, like it was

00:55:40.580 just hard to apply it. So I was like, well, don't criticize other people's stuff. And that's

00:55:44.860 certainly not me criticizing him in a vacuum. He's a genius. But like, I was like, don't criticize

00:55:50.020 if you're not going to write something. So I thought, okay, what is a book that real people

00:55:53.960 can use every day and they can go back to when they feel like they see it again. But I, at the

00:55:59.980 end of it, man, I know you have kids. I don't want to raise my kid in a world where the answer is

00:56:06.740 just wishful thinking or pass the buck. Like that's not, that is not a responsible parent to me.

00:56:14.860 well I wholeheartedly agree and this is why I love self-development and having this conversation

00:56:20.620 but it's interesting because at the same time I've noticed this trend because I'm in the world

00:56:25.040 of podcasting I have been for 11 years which I remember when I started talking to people about

00:56:30.700 what I did they'd ask what do you do I'm like I have a podcast and I remember they would say

00:56:35.780 what's that that's how long I've been doing this what's that and I'd have to say well consider

00:56:42.180 radio on demand for any subject you want to hear about oh cool and this is the inevitable question

00:56:47.880 i always got what's your real job people ask you that i'm like that's actually my real job

00:56:55.340 oh all the time like what do you what's your real job what do you do during the day what's your what's

00:57:01.260 your full-time position all the time inevitably i got that question and they weren't being malicious

00:57:06.340 they were just curious yeah anything yeah right but but it's interesting because now

00:57:14.420 i stay on the trends self-development isn't so relevant as it once was with podcasting what's

00:57:22.780 more relevant is cultural narrative that's why joe rogan's podcast does so well uh sean ryan is

00:57:30.420 another great example tucker carlson ben shapiro like find find these top podcasts and it's all

00:57:37.920 culturally driven like what about covid really exacerbated this oh what's covid and fauci and the

00:57:44.640 the the vaccine and now it's you know conspiracy about 9 11 because we're on the on the on the back

00:57:51.320 of of september 11th uh or it's you know aliens and it's the government this and the jews that

00:57:58.180 and it's become it's no longer about self-development anymore it's all about this 0.91

00:58:04.840 cultural bullshit and it's all just entertaining like nobody i don't want to say nobody but

00:58:11.780 fewer and fewer people care about actually improving themselves as much as they care about 0.97

00:58:18.020 there's a show i think it's called like mormon housewives or something and it's in i'm in

00:58:23.140 southern utah this one's in salt lake like we are so easily distracted and it's actually really

00:58:30.380 discouraging man if i'm being honest yeah yeah i mean i think well that does the same thing we're

00:58:36.500 talking about where people deflect conflict right it's easier to just blame it on the culture and

00:58:40.520 something else that's going on and of course that's relevant i mean we can't run around saying

00:58:44.720 you take on traits of the five people you spend the most time around and things like that um but

00:58:50.380 it becomes, that's what I think. I think today's culture, for lack of a better term, more than

00:58:56.420 ever sits on this nexus of like entitlement and escapism, you know, like everybody thinks that

00:59:03.820 they should have it their way or that people should kowtow to them or whatever. And if not,

00:59:08.300 well, I'm not going to, I'm not going to work on myself or whatever. I'm going to blame it on

00:59:13.120 these other circumstances. That's easy. You know, it's just like, I was telling my son the other

00:59:16.140 day, we had actually turned off. We were watching a National Geographic show and then like a

00:59:21.360 political ad came on and I muted that. And he's like, why do you mute those? Because we're not

00:59:25.700 talking bad about other people. I go, listen, the lower class talks poorly, like talks about 1.00

00:59:31.040 other people. The middle class just obsesses about money. The world class talks about ideas.

00:59:35.720 And I don't care that my six-year-old doesn't understand that right now. I care that there's

00:59:39.620 this narrative that we're not going to make our own living talking negative about other people. 1.00

00:59:44.240 Now your listeners could say, well, you're a hypocrite. 0.99

00:59:47.200 You just blasted some other books. 1.00

00:59:48.720 Sure.

00:59:49.560 Like, but I'm blasting the message.

00:59:51.420 I'm blasting the, like two things can exist at once.

00:59:54.280 Like I can have deep respect.

00:59:55.840 Like, I don't know Mel Robbins.

00:59:57.400 Okay.

00:59:57.720 Like, let's say I get along very well with Mel Robbins, but I can also disagree with

01:00:02.640 the concept of let them, which is this big viral thing right now.

01:00:06.420 And one of my clients was like, yeah, I can't just let them.

01:00:09.760 If my, if my staff shows up this way, I can't let them.

01:00:12.640 If my son behaves this way, I can't just let them.

01:00:15.960 Then maybe somebody would say, well, that's an unfair criticism of her book.

01:00:19.060 That's not the point.

01:00:20.200 The point is, is I'm not going to market my book just by targeting other people's work. 0.99

01:00:25.140 What I am going to say is we have to have an understanding that shit is going to be 0.98

01:00:30.240 hectic in life. 0.98

01:00:31.480 You're going to deal with nonstop uncertainty, nonstop doubts.

01:00:34.340 It's your responsibility to figure out how to become the kind of person necessary to

01:00:40.020 deal with, because we can't all change the world.

01:00:42.640 but you can change how you operate within it and you can change your own

01:00:45.480 corner of it. So that's why you write the book. Um, and so it just,

01:00:50.120 but it is interesting. You're right.

01:00:51.340 Like people want to escape into things or let's talk about how the

01:00:54.480 government's hiding this from us.

01:00:55.980 I also think the truth just isn't sexy, Ryan. Like, you know, that like,

01:01:00.040 let's be like, I would love for there to,

01:01:02.280 I absolutely believe there's aliens. Let's go there for a minute.

01:01:05.180 I think it's a mathematical certainty.

01:01:07.680 Do I think that there's biological life form aliens wandering around the

01:01:12.240 planet no because think about that we're not that smart and are and we would send probes and forms

01:01:18.340 of ai and whatever to another planet so things if they exist that are infinitely smarter than us 0.97

01:01:23.820 certainly aren't sending their biological life forms to dip shit around watching us nearly blow

01:01:29.200 each other up all the time but these things are they're fun to talk about they're interesting they 0.54

01:01:33.760 cause water cooler debates and they make people focus on things other than themselves so they

01:01:38.880 listen to it i mean i would get a fair amount of hate comments i'm sure just for saying that

01:01:42.580 yeah i i mean i i've always wondered with aliens like why are they why are they inherently smarter

01:01:53.500 than us why are they advanced what what if we're the advanced civilization why are they smarter

01:01:58.100 so i've always had that question but regardless and i do have to say it i'm going to put this on

01:02:03.620 the record i don't resonate with mel robbins i like that book man that's a good book i think

01:02:09.680 you're taking a little out of context but i like that book but the point that i'm gonna say here

01:02:14.780 is that i don't think you're blasting her and i wish more people understood that i can debate

01:02:21.360 ideas i can critique ideas i can question ideas without it being a personal attack against

01:02:29.260 somebody and that's the problem everybody wants to be so offended just because i may or may not

01:02:34.060 like what mel robbins has to say doesn't mean if she was my neighbor i wouldn't love the woman to

01:02:38.920 death i probably would she'd bring brownies to me and i'd go mow her lawn when she was out of town

01:02:43.300 but that's not the question the question is the idea that has nothing to do with her as a human

01:02:47.780 being a million percent and that's why i started off that way right two things can be true at once

01:02:53.180 right just like i can be very proud of of my work and be hyper critical of it at the same time like

01:02:58.740 i have just the right amount of self-hate and that's also like i i completely agree and this

01:03:05.300 is why i said like i mentioned i'm oversimplifying it this is what clients of mine were saying i can't

01:03:11.100 just let them of course if mel robbins was here right now saying hey the book is about don't let 0.58

01:03:15.520 other people throw you off your game with their endless bullshit and whatever of course i get that

01:03:20.900 concept right i get that very clearly but and she could say i think you have a bad title and we could 0.51

01:03:26.940 still nine, get, get along on 99%, which is another reason why I wrote the book is our inability to

01:03:34.580 do that, to normalize conflict, to metabolize conflict, or just to say one comment and not

01:03:40.000 turn it into some other big thing. That is, that is eroding. And I think that if you have one,

01:03:45.800 if you were to ask me, Brett, the five most important things that you think any of us need

01:03:51.500 to be successful especially now it is going to be conflict resolution at skill communication

01:03:58.760 at an extraordinarily high level not just oh i have a good vocabulary i communicate every day

01:04:04.500 like really skilled social agility is what i call it in the book we need creativity because if you

01:04:11.040 don't have creativity you're not going to solve problems without you know having everything handed

01:04:14.860 to you you're going to have to have critical thinking because so much stuff out there is 0.99

01:04:19.360 absolute crap. And then the fifth one, which speaks to a full circle to what you and I just 0.76

01:04:23.980 mentioned, whether it's about Mel and Jocko and this and that is collaboration. More people who

01:04:29.800 are pragmatic, who are trying to put out non-sexy messages with principles that are going to last

01:04:35.400 the next 10 years, a hundred years, a thousand years need to be doing more to elevate each

01:04:39.300 other's work rather than just focusing on nothing but differences. Cause it takes no intelligence

01:04:45.040 to just focus on differences zero I mean the hard part is and again we talked a little bit

01:04:53.000 about pragmatism if I can that's kind of a tongue twister there but the hard part is 0.98

01:05:00.220 even just intelligence like most people are just dumb like I don't know how else to say it 0.97

01:05:05.580 and and and it look we can look at it in politics politicians play to the lowest common denominator 0.98

01:05:12.280 and i want to be clear i'm not talking about a human's potential as it relates to their eternal 0.97

01:05:18.740 worth that's not what i'm talking about i'm just saying a lot of people are dumb and more people 0.97

01:05:25.760 are dumb than are intelligent and some people would call me dumb and maybe i am in a lot of 0.99

01:05:31.060 ways actually but we're all we're all but we all have that because i don't think 0.99

01:05:35.520 totally but i think the problem is is is it's like the you know you remember when you and i

01:05:44.680 were in high school and i don't know how how old you are brett but when you and i were in high school

01:05:48.600 um you know we had elections right and for student body president vice president secretary

01:05:55.180 treasury etc etc and it was always the popular dude or the popular girl because they said

01:06:01.080 as as pedro on napoleon dynamite might say vote for me and all of your wildest dreams will come

01:06:06.200 true right and but that's what people do and everyone's like yeah cool hooray celebrate and 0.99

01:06:12.480 they believe it like idiots instead of saying okay hold on maybe we do need to rein in some 0.99

01:06:19.260 of our debt maybe we do need to look at social security and medicare uh maybe we do need to 1.00

01:06:25.580 look at international and foreign spending at the expense of our own well-being nobody wants to do

01:06:32.600 that because to your point it's not sexy and that's my fear is that we will just happily march

01:06:39.660 like following the pied piper into the sea and drown ourselves like rats yeah well i mean because

01:06:45.800 your point i think like i think another way to put it is we're just non-discerning and that's

01:06:52.700 the scariest thing and that's why all you have to do is and this again where you and i can laugh

01:06:57.460 because we're that's way more gracious than the way i said it brett by the way well i just think 0.99

01:07:02.360 that like certain certain to a degree you said non-discerning i said people are idiots so yeah 0.97

01:07:08.220 well again i think they're both true though i think like i think ignorance ignorance is valuable 0.95

01:07:13.260 on its own right as long as you recognize it but that's that's why i said non-discerning is i don't

01:07:17.640 think people want to admit their ignorance you know do you want to be the expert in every room

01:07:21.500 ryan i mean my ego says yes but my pragmatism says no i would like to learn a few things here

01:07:31.280 and there yeah like i mean i like i like um i i joke sometimes and i'm like man people drive me

01:07:37.860 nuts but by and large i like people i like being around interesting quirky people i like having

01:07:42.280 conversations with you i like having friends that are kind of all over the spectrum literally and

01:07:47.280 figuratively. Like I have one friend talking to this guy's like Jimmy Neutron and then another

01:07:51.680 guy's stuck in college. But like, I think that people just have to have a realistic sense. And

01:07:56.720 that's why I joke earlier, but truth is said in jest, I have just the right amount of self-hate,

01:08:01.580 you know, cause somebody goes, Oh, I could never write a book. And I go, why not? And they're like,

01:08:05.360 well, I just don't have the confidence. I go, Oh my God, you're just the person to write the book.

01:08:10.160 Writing a book is a terrifying, horrific experience that puts you face to face with 0.90

01:08:14.640 your own ignorance. Cause you have to find a way to say it as you know, in the way that you

01:08:19.720 intended, but also still say it in a way that a larger audience understands, you know, and you've

01:08:25.660 got to package it. You've got to remember like a stupid thing that I did is I had written this 0.97

01:08:31.360 chapter around this topic that like you said earlier, and I mean this humbly, but I'm an 0.93

01:08:36.820 expert on for sure this topic. And I was really getting into the weeds. And I remember I had to

01:08:41.980 it back and I reread it and I'm like, Oh my God, what am I doing? I'm like, I have to remember

01:08:47.240 this has to appeal to the woman who is waiting for her toes to dry at an all-inclusive resort

01:08:53.840 before she goes to dinner after a pedicure and a CEO and an operator and like, get out of your

01:09:01.080 head and get in there. What are you trying to say moron? And that's probably not great self-talk 1.00

01:09:05.120 for myself, but like, you know, it makes me go back. So to admit our own ignorance and allow

01:09:10.480 ourselves to come face to face with it is really important i think the problem and you spoke to it

01:09:15.600 is most people don't want to they'd rather turn on mormon housewives or they'd rather turn on

01:09:20.460 tiktok or they'd rather and it's like dude it's not wrong to feel the things you're feeling

01:09:24.860 embarrassment guilt anger shame all these things but it is wrong to hide from them it's like that

01:09:29.880 ayn rand quote i love ayn rand and the fountainhead it's like you can escape reality but you cannot

01:09:35.960 escape the consequences of evading reality so just admit your ignorance or at least kind of

01:09:42.200 ask yourself periodically where i'm the problem and you're going to be ahead of like 99 of the 0.94

01:09:47.440 human race who to your point doesn't give a shit i i remember years ago when i had written 0.94

01:09:55.900 both the books that i that i wrote i had this her name was sandra gabany and and she's incredible 0.98

01:10:03.560 you know she her and i don't see ideologically like we don't agree on some things yes but not

01:10:10.180 everything and you know what's so great about her is she during the book writing processes

01:10:15.180 she edited she said you know what ryan like i don't from where i sit i don't understand what

01:10:22.560 you're saying i don't understand the ideology i don't understand the argument i you have not

01:10:29.320 made your case here. So if you want to leave this in the book, that's cool, but you're going to need

01:10:35.080 to make your case as to why you're saying that. And there was some things in the books where I

01:10:39.860 was like, no, here. Okay, good. Yeah. I appreciate that. Here's my case. And she's like, cool.

01:10:43.800 Perfect. Makes sense. And there were other situations where I'm like, oof, I actually

01:10:49.360 can't make that case that I had to mix because I couldn't make the case. Yeah. It was pretty good.

01:10:54.880 It was, it was really cathartic for me. Yeah. And that, that's what I mean. That's, I mean,

01:10:59.380 like, that's why I think those are the people that should be writing books. Um, and, and a big

01:11:04.160 concern too. And I don't know that I should be saying this because things can get taken out of

01:11:08.380 context today, but, um, how do I want to phrase it? And this isn't me self-editing. It's me trying

01:11:13.920 to be concise for sake of your listeners is, uh, let's just put it this way. When I had negotiated

01:11:19.840 this book deal, uh, I was pretty frustrated and I don't know that I was proud of the way I

01:11:24.320 communicated something but sometimes you know have you ever had a situation where you communicated

01:11:29.660 really poorly but it still must have been the way it needed to be said at the time for the other

01:11:33.840 person even though you weren't happy with it because it like it worked you know what i mean

01:11:38.180 by that and like so i had said something where i was like listen yeah if you guys won't if you're

01:11:44.220 not interested in this book and it was part of my closing pitch and it wasn't smart but i said it

01:11:49.320 anyway because i let my emotions get the best of me then i hope you're just satisfied with the fact

01:11:54.040 that i guess every book we're all going to read from here on out is just from like professors at

01:11:59.920 ivy league universities celebrities or people that have given a big ted talk i go but there

01:12:06.220 is an audience out there that it's not that they don't appreciate those people it can be yes and

01:12:11.480 but they also want to hear a different message and it shouldn't matter the follower count 0.97

01:12:16.300 or the patina around their name it should just matter holy shit this person speaks truth like 0.95

01:12:23.260 i love hip-hop i grew up in 90s hip-hop eminem jay-z 50 cent but like actual lyricists right 0.89

01:12:31.020 people that actually had great wordplay form of poetry wu-tang my son proudly wore a wu-tang clan

01:12:37.220 shirt to to school today and i listened to everything else too frank sinatra and country

01:12:41.240 and what have you but i don't need the other day i was listening to something on spotify i had no

01:12:46.100 idea who this person was but i knew it was intricate it was well thought out and it was

01:12:50.900 really good. And I'm so grateful. We have things like Spotify because I found a new artist and

01:12:56.800 it's not set up in the book industry to do that. Why? Because of everything you're saying,

01:13:00.800 we, we want stuff now that is so similar and safe and whatever, but then we complain when we get it.

01:13:06.840 So all I'd ask is your listeners to think, okay, are you dealing with something right now? Any of

01:13:11.720 you where it could be somebody you love or somebody you work with or yourself is really

01:13:16.860 resistant to change. Maybe you had a job where you put your head down, you did your job, you're

01:13:22.700 exceedingly good at it, but you feel like you got screwed over due to power dynamics. Have you ever

01:13:27.780 felt like you wanted to get better at communicating in a way where you actually said the damn thing 0.99

01:13:33.460 you wanted to say? It's not like you changed who you are, but you just had fewer disagreements 0.91

01:13:39.080 because you got your point across more clearly. If you've ever dealt with any of those things,

01:13:43.940 then like, I think you'll like the book, but if not, I'm totally cool. If you don't like the book,

01:13:49.200 that's fine. But we all have to take a stand of like, what is my life actually? What am I actually

01:13:53.600 dealing with right now? Go support content that is representative of that. Cause otherwise we're

01:13:59.480 all fed more bullshit. You know, that's, that's the thing. And so, but I love man that you did 1.00

01:14:05.080 that with your editor because I hope your audience understands this. And this isn't me kissing your

01:14:09.740 ass. Cause I wouldn't do that. I think that's a big reason why we're friends. I don't think many 1.00

01:14:14.060 people know how many authors and people would not, would just not let their editor win. They'd be

01:14:20.340 like, screw you. They wouldn't have that moment. They'd say their editor was dumb, but for you to 1.00

01:14:24.620 be like, yeah, I didn't make my point. Clearly this needs to go like that's, that's leadership 0.98

01:14:29.160 in action. Cause that's self-leadership. Yeah. I mean, sometimes I do get it right,

01:14:36.920 but it's, but it's infrequent. That's why I remember it because it's so infrequent that

01:14:41.080 I can actually remember the few times where I do get it right. If you ask me the, how many times

01:14:46.600 I've got it wrong, I can't give you a scenario because it's all the time. But you learned a lot

01:14:51.700 from that too. I mean, I would imagine, I mean, I know you've been very open. Oh, go ahead. Of

01:14:55.600 course. No, no, keep going. I was going to say, you know, I think you're one of the few people

01:15:02.020 that has done it really well where, you know, you share things that go on in your life and you can

01:15:06.260 tell, you're like actually just sharing it, putting it out there, like letting people know

01:15:10.000 there's no, there's no facade here. There's no BS. And, um, while also not making a meal out of it,

01:15:16.100 like some of the folks. So I appreciate like you just being genuine because I think that that's

01:15:20.440 something important for, for like, not only the people listening, but kids and everything have to

01:15:25.780 see other people own mistakes, be vulnerable in a way that's actually real. That's not just like

01:15:31.360 brandified. And more importantly, again, apologies if this isn't allowed on your show,

01:15:35.260 but just as like not superficial bullshit you know and i think that stuff is becoming rarer

01:15:40.100 rarer today and so anybody listening obviously support ryan but find five or six other people

01:15:45.220 that you can support even if what they say makes you kind of uncomfortable and whatever

01:15:48.860 we don't like a mirror you know i'm sure some of the things that i said have some people up in arms

01:15:53.380 but it comes from a good place and like if you don't have people that are real with you at the

01:15:57.560 end of the day that's true poverty i i really think there's just two criteria tell me what

01:16:04.420 you think about this and maybe there's more or less, I don't know, but I think there's really

01:16:07.580 two criteria when evaluating the way people are talking to you. Number one, do they have your

01:16:11.740 best interest at heart? That's the most important thing to me. If I know that a person has my best

01:16:17.460 interest at heart, I will give them so much more leniency to talk to me in ways I would not allow

01:16:22.220 other people to talk to me or to me. So do they have my best interest at heart? That's the first

01:16:29.520 question. The second question is, is it true? Like, is it true? If I know they have my best

01:16:36.700 interest at heart and what they're saying, even if it's uncomfortable is true, then all right,

01:16:42.180 well, yep. Point to you. You got me on that one and I can take the loss, lick my wounds and figure

01:16:48.560 out how to be better next time. Yep. Nope. I agree. All right, brother. How do we connect with

01:16:55.180 you obviously the book is not quite out it's on pre-order uh i'd love for you to tell the guys

01:17:00.320 how to get their hands on the book but in the meantime just learn more about what you do because

01:17:04.700 i appreciate a lot of the ways that you communicate your ideas and insight i think that's why we're

01:17:12.060 good friends but i also like that you're somebody who we can banter and debate and discuss and say

01:17:17.640 i agree or i don't agree and here's why that's those are the kind of people that we need in

01:17:21.820 their lives. So anyways, regardless, how do the guys connect with you? Yeah, real easy,

01:17:26.460 artofcoaching.com. And, you know, we use coaching as a synonym for a leadership guide teacher. So,

01:17:31.960 I mean, like I said, we have people in law enforcement, the military, sport coaches,

01:17:37.000 leaders. So artofcoaching.com is where you can find all of our work, intersection of anything

01:17:42.260 that has to do with relationships. So even if you want to learn how to argue more effectively with

01:17:46.340 your spouse or, you know, you're trying to reconnect with your kids, we do that kind of

01:17:50.020 stuff, as well as leadership, conflict, negotiation-based training. And also we have

01:17:55.920 something we call speaker school. So if you want to be a better presenter, we've had folks that

01:17:59.900 have full-blown social anxiety, and we've also had people that have TED Talks come in and speak. So

01:18:05.480 just if you want to improve, the book, The Antihero Advantage is out on Amazon. So again,

01:18:10.280 available for pre-order. You can go to antiheroadvantage.com and learn more about it. And

01:18:16.960 yeah i appreciate you very much for having me on likewise brother so glad you came on and i

01:18:23.420 appreciate our friendship and who you are and how you show up so thanks for joining me today

01:18:27.460 yeah thanks for having me all right gentlemen there you go my conversation with a good friend

01:18:33.360 of mine and somebody i really deeply admire respect brett bartholomew talking about his

01:18:39.980 latest book and the concept behind it called the anti-hero advantage if you guys would just go

01:18:45.520 ahead and leave a rating and review, that goes a long way. I know you think it doesn't, or maybe

01:18:51.140 you think it's not that big of a deal, or maybe I've asked you a bunch of times and you've never

01:18:55.560 done it. Just go do it. And then I'll never ask you again. I'll ask broadly, but not you specifically.

01:19:03.240 So if you would leave a rating and review, tag me, take a screenshot, share this with your cousin,

01:19:08.580 brother, uncle, coworker, father, whoever, another man that needs to learn how to take his

01:19:14.480 what he might consider disadvantages

01:19:17.620 and turn them into advantages by way of leadership.

01:19:21.600 Guys, please do that.

01:19:22.740 Also check out the war room

01:19:24.100 at orderofman.com slash war room.

01:19:26.820 That's gonna be held tomorrow, September 16th

01:19:29.560 at 8 p.m. Eastern, orderofman.com slash war room.

01:19:33.120 It's free, be there,

01:19:35.220 and we will be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.

01:19:39.220 Until then, go out there, take action,

01:19:41.460 and become the man you are meant to be.

01:19:43.660 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:19:46.980 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

01:19:51.020 we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - September 15, 2026

BRETT BARTHOLEMEW ｜ The Flawed Leader Advantage... And How to Make it Work for You

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