Rebel News Podcast - April 11, 2019


NDP’s ongoing legal battle with brewers costing Albertans millions (Guest： Bo Vitanov, Artisan Ales)


Episode Stats


Length

29 minutes

Words per minute

129.23181

Word count

3,802

Sentence count

196


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

The Alberta government continues to fight a court ruling that levied a $2 million fine against them. My guest tonight will explain exactly how this all happened. She s a small businesswoman who won a similar court battle with the Alberta government, but she won it at a trade tribunal.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
00:00:00.000 Hello Rebels, you're listening to a free audio-only recording of my show, The Gun Show.
00:00:06.220 My guest tonight is Beau Vitinov from Artisan Ales.
00:00:10.120 We're discussing an appeals court hearing that happened just yesterday afternoon.
00:00:14.940 The Alberta government is appealing a $2 million judgment levied against them,
00:00:20.160 issued to Steam Whistle Brewing after the company took the Alberta government to court
00:00:25.020 over their unconstitutional changes to beer taxes.
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00:01:31.840 You're listening to The Rebel Media Podcast.
00:01:35.220 The Alberta government continues its attack on private industry.
00:01:38.700 Today, I'll tell you about how they are continuing to fight a court ruling
00:01:43.240 that levied a $2 million fine against them.
00:01:46.880 I'm Sheila Gunn-Reed, and you're watching The Gunn Show.
00:02:07.220 It seems as though after four years of Rachel Notley's NDP being in power,
00:02:12.140 we can sum up their governing style as,
00:02:14.240 if it ain't broke, then try to fix it anyway with more government and then ruin the entire system
00:02:19.500 and then cost the beleaguered Alberta taxpayers millions of dollars just trying to hide your mistakes.
00:02:26.280 Yesterday afternoon, a three-member judicial panel heard arguments in an appeal of a Court of Queen's Bench ruling
00:02:33.960 that determined the Alberta government had unconstitutionally applied beer taxes to out-of-province brewers.
00:02:41.020 Two out-of-province brewers said that the Alberta government had violated the Canadian constitution
00:02:48.220 by creating illegal interprovincial trade barriers
00:02:51.860 when the Alberta government hiked the per-liter markup on out-of-province beers by up to 166%.
00:03:00.120 Now, that Court of Queen's Bench ruling from late last June levied $2 million in restitution
00:03:06.760 to Great Western Brewing Company based in Saskatoon and Toronto's Steam Whistle Brewing.
00:03:12.900 Now, to translate that for you, the Alberta government got greedy and did something illegal and unconstitutional,
00:03:20.860 and now the Alberta taxpayers are not only on the hook for the expenses involved in the continued fighting of these court cases,
00:03:27.840 but also $2 million to out-of-province brewers because the NDP just didn't know what the heck they were doing at all.
00:03:35.580 My guest tonight will explain exactly how this all happened.
00:03:39.520 She's a small businesswoman who won a similar court battle with the Alberta government,
00:03:44.300 but she won it at a trade tribunal over the exact same issue, the beer markup.
00:03:49.760 So, joining me tonight in an interview we recorded late last night is Beau Vittinov from Calgary's Artisan Ales.
00:03:57.480 Thank you.
00:04:27.480 Thanks for having me, Sheila. Hi.
00:04:29.540 Now, you've been on the show a lot, but just for some of our newer viewers,
00:04:35.520 maybe could you give us a brief Coles Notes version of your fight with the Alberta government
00:04:42.100 and how that came to be and how, after three or nearly four long years,
00:04:47.700 you actually won your battle with the Alberta government for beer freedom?
00:04:52.640 Yeah. So, as you say, it's been a long road.
00:04:58.740 In late 2015, the NDP government instituted a change in the way that they applied the beer markup
00:05:13.320 or the liquor tax on beer, if you want to call it that.
00:05:19.060 Up until that time, small breweries or micro breweries were given a much lower markup than the big guys.
00:05:28.220 So, the markup for the smallest breweries was $0.20 a litre and the markup for the big guys was $1.20.
00:05:39.280 And that's consistent with the way that it's done in other provinces in Canada.
00:05:45.060 And it didn't matter if the brewery was from Alberta, from another Canadian province, or another country.
00:05:54.220 It was based on the worldwide production of the brewery.
00:05:58.380 And so, what happened in 2015 was the NDP changed that overnight.
00:06:04.420 Every brewery, regardless of its size, that was from outside the New West Partnership,
00:06:11.440 which included Alberta, BC, and Saskatchewan, went up to $1.25 overnight.
00:06:18.460 And the micro breweries from within the New West Partnership got a big advantage
00:06:25.900 because they were still given a graduated markup.
00:06:29.020 So, as you can imagine, anyone like us who is representing breweries from outside the New West Partnership
00:06:37.860 took a huge hit.
00:06:40.360 We knew it was going to devastate our business, which it did.
00:06:45.720 So, we tried to figure out how we could get the government to change it.
00:06:52.440 Initially, we tried to just write to them, talk to the AGLC.
00:06:57.960 That went nowhere.
00:06:59.020 So, we knew we couldn't afford to take them to court.
00:07:03.060 So, we went a different direction.
00:07:05.760 We basically filed a grievance or a complaint through the Agreement on Internal Trade,
00:07:11.980 which is a Canadian-wide free trade agreement.
00:07:15.800 We took the Alberta government to a tribunal panel.
00:07:23.140 The panel ruled in our favor.
00:07:25.760 We won.
00:07:26.320 The Alberta government appealed.
00:07:28.920 And in the meantime, they also changed the policy because they realized that they really
00:07:36.240 were offside, that they were going to lose.
00:07:38.740 So, they changed the policy where they jacked up that beer markup to $1.25 on everyone.
00:07:47.520 But what they were doing was through a different ministry in the government, they were rebating
00:07:54.220 whatever the difference was back to the $0.10 a litre or $0.20 a litre, but only for the Alberta
00:08:02.520 micros.
00:08:03.120 And so, the trade panel basically ruled that you can't do in two steps what you can't do in one step.
00:08:13.620 And they basically smacked down the Alberta government's policy.
00:08:18.340 The government appealed.
00:08:20.940 We had the appeal tribunal kind of late spring last year, and they lost again.
00:08:31.940 And they basically had six months to change the policy, and they finally did.
00:08:39.040 And they basically reverted back to a policy very similar to the one that was in place before
00:08:46.420 they started all this, all these shenanigans.
00:08:49.480 They did miss the deadline that they were given to make the changes, but yeah, they've been
00:08:58.800 completely routed, and they've had to basically put the beer markup back the way that it was
00:09:06.620 three years ago, three and a half years ago.
00:09:09.340 And likely, they spent millions of dollars in legal fees fighting a small business like
00:09:14.740 you, who, I mean, you guys really did what seems to be the impossible.
00:09:18.980 You basically caused the Alberta government to do a complete and total 180 and reverse
00:09:25.640 everything.
00:09:26.660 And I remember you telling me somewhere along the way, the Alberta government actually wanted
00:09:31.880 to hold you responsible for some of their legal fees, even as they appealed tribunal rulings
00:09:39.580 that found them in the wrong.
00:09:41.240 Yeah, they've, I mean, like you say, they've had fairly expensive lawyers working on this
00:09:51.100 on their behalf, which of course, taxpayers are paying for.
00:09:55.420 And yeah, even after they lost that first tribunal, and we went to the appeal, they basically,
00:10:03.700 their position was, hey, even if we lose this appeal, you should stick art as nails with part
00:10:09.120 of this, part of the costs from this appeal tribunal.
00:10:13.380 Fortunately, they, that isn't, they didn't get their way.
00:10:17.660 Nonetheless, I mean, it's, it did cost us money because it's not, it's not like court.
00:10:24.180 So winning does not get you.
00:10:29.320 They, they did have to pay some of our legal fees, but the costs of the tribunal wind up
00:10:34.740 getting assessed out to the participants.
00:10:38.560 So, you know, for, for us being a small business, this was, this wasn't easy, though we did have,
00:10:47.220 we did have great help from the Canadian Constitution Foundation, which is a nonprofit organization
00:10:54.240 that's basically interested in these sorts of constitutional issues.
00:11:00.180 They're the, the people who also backed Mr. Como and that big liquor Como case that, that went to the Supreme Court
00:11:09.920 last year, I believe it was.
00:11:13.900 So without them there, we would, you know, we wouldn't have been, been able to fight this.
00:11:19.440 And I think that's kind of the, the issue with these sorts of situations.
00:11:25.160 It's like, sure, um, you have the opportunity to, to fight and complain with the government,
00:11:33.200 but it costs money and they have deep pockets.
00:11:37.180 They, um, you know, they have nothing but time and taxpayers money to, uh, to fight.
00:11:44.120 Now, can you tell us what exactly happened today at the appeals court panel?
00:11:51.540 Um, can you tell us how the Alberta government ended up before an appeals court panel with Steam Whistle?
00:12:03.080 So, um, basically when, as I mentioned, we, we couldn't afford to, to go to court with the government
00:12:14.660 when we were unhappy with what happened with, with the beer markup, but Steam Whistle, um, could and did.
00:12:24.520 So, I can't remember the timing, but basically shortly after they put the original policy change in place in, um, in late 2015,
00:12:35.860 Steam Whistle filed for an injunction to basically, um, to basically keep the Alberta government from imposing
00:12:45.420 this $1.25, uh, beer markup on them.
00:12:49.200 Um, and they were successful in, in getting the injunction granted and subsequently when the
00:12:59.360 government made its change where it was, um, where it excluded Saskatchewan, then Great Western
00:13:08.240 also joined in, um, into this.
00:13:11.600 And so, last year, the government lost not just to us in these trade tribunals, but they lost to Steam Whistle.
00:13:21.840 And, of course, as with us, they appealed that decision.
00:13:27.960 So, they were, um, in, in the hearing, in the original, um, court case, they were basically told that they would have to pay
00:13:37.400 Steam Whistle, I believe it's, um, $2.1 million.
00:13:41.840 And so, the, the appeal is really around the money because, obviously, um, given their loss to us,
00:13:50.680 they've changed the policy.
00:13:52.860 So, in effect, it's been proven that their policy was, um, wrong and, uh, and was, uh, not constitutional
00:14:03.160 and broke trade barriers, uh, I mean, trade agreements.
00:14:07.180 But, um, the appeal is really around whether the government has to pay this money to Steam Whistle
00:14:16.860 and Great Western.
00:14:18.480 Yeah.
00:14:19.080 From what I understand, it was $2.1 million in restitution.
00:14:22.940 And, rest assured, the government has probably spent well over that dragging Steam Whistle back to court
00:14:30.680 to appeal, uh, the findings of another court.
00:14:35.140 I mean, it's just outrageous that they are continuing to waste taxpayer dollars fighting small businesses
00:14:42.300 and brewers in court, uh, because they couldn't have the foresight, the NDP, I mean, didn't have the foresight
00:14:49.400 to see the chaos that their changes to a perfectly well-functioning liquor system would have across the entire system
00:14:58.300 and then spills out into other provinces.
00:15:02.300 Yeah, I, you know, I, I certainly don't understand.
00:15:07.820 Well, I guess, like I say, if you, if you don't personally have to pay the money, um,
00:15:17.620 I guess there's no incentive to kind of stop fighting.
00:15:25.940 Um, and, you know, I don't, I don't understand their motivations, particularly with respect to this, um, to this case,
00:15:36.500 because they've lost, they've lost to us.
00:15:38.760 But, um, you know, maybe part of it is a function to just kind of make this drag out, uh, until after the election.
00:15:49.380 So, they don't actually have to have a headline saying that they did lose and that they have to pay this money back.
00:15:57.560 So, yeah, I, I'm kind of baffled as to why this has kept going.
00:16:05.440 Yeah, and it's such a weird hill to die on.
00:16:09.300 It's just so strange.
00:16:11.040 I mean, who picked a fight with brewers?
00:16:12.940 It just seems like such a crazy thing.
00:16:15.360 And in the middle of all of this, um, Joe Ceci, the finance minister, and Darren Billis, the trade minister,
00:16:23.200 they go and they pick a fight with Ontario because they say Ontario isn't allowing, um, Ontario, Alberta products into their marketplace.
00:16:31.160 But in the meantime, they slapped on this weird tax in the middle of nowhere.
00:16:36.380 So, I, I'm a firm believer that the, the case against Ontario was actually like a big distraction from having to admit that they lost to us in the tribunal.
00:16:53.640 That was completely timed to, to basically, you know, distract from the, from the press asking them about, you know, losing, losing in the tribunal.
00:17:10.500 So, they were, they could say, oh, we're still fighting for Alberta brewers.
00:17:15.560 Look over there, Ontario, big bad Ontario.
00:17:18.260 And, you know, don't get me wrong, um, I, I don't deny that there's issues with the LCBO, but if that was something that was so, if that was the issue,
00:17:32.780 then that's what they should have addressed back in 2015 and not wait like three and a half years until they're told what they're doing is wrong to go and, uh, and pick on, on another province.
00:17:48.260 Yeah, and I just saw a headline the other day that the government of Canada is now, um, at least trying to eliminate federal barriers to alcohol trade.
00:17:59.160 Um, it seems like a strange thing from, um, Justin Trudeau's government to be in favor of free trade, but, you know, I, I'll take it where I can get it, I guess.
00:18:10.040 So, yep, yep, there's, um, there's definitely, like, some moves afoot to try and make this a little simpler.
00:18:20.600 Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
00:18:23.300 No, I was just going to say, um, yeah, I mean, this is something I, I guess the conservatives have been fighting for since, well, gosh, since they were in power and actually had the power to do something about it.
00:18:35.160 Um, so it is good to see the needle moving a little bit. Um, I hate to give Justin Trudeau credit for anything, but if he, he does this, well, then good for him.
00:18:45.140 Yeah, well, really good for all of us because it should just be easier, right? Like, we keep hearing that they're, I mean, they reworked the AIT.
00:18:56.660 It became the Canadian, um, free trade agreement. And, um, so we're, you're hoping that they would make things easier to do business across the country instead of making it more difficult.
00:19:10.960 Right. Um, now, the election's coming up. Um, I know that the NDP have had, um, I mean, it's pretty clear they just don't believe in, um, the free exchange of goods and services between provinces, um, based on their, their tariffs and trade barriers.
00:19:32.980 Um, where, where, where does the UCP stand on this beer tax stuff?
00:19:40.620 So, I haven't really heard them speak about it specifically. Um, I did talk to the candidate, the UCP candidate in my riding, Jason Copping.
00:19:53.700 And I do, um, my understanding is, is that they have a, um, uh, a group or I don't, um, a team that's actually looking specifically at what they call, uh, red tape that's preventing, uh, businesses from, um, working, you know, smoothly or efficiently.
00:20:18.180 So, uh, I definitely brought, uh, this, this beer issue up, um, for their attention because one of the, one of the things that's, that they've instituted is that even though they now have gone back to this graduated tax, which is for all breweries, again, from all over the world, um, they've kind of been sort of losers.
00:20:45.000 And they're asking for an incredible amount of paperwork for a brewery to basically become eligible to get the reduced, uh, beer markup.
00:21:01.000 Uh, so if, um, if, um, if we're bringing in a really tiny, bringing in beer from a really tiny brewery from Belgium and the brewery isn't willing to provide, uh, all kinds of detailed information about their financials and the structure of the organization.
00:21:21.860 And, uh, uh, their declaration of production, which is actually, the declaration is, is not such a big deal, but the financial statements and all kinds of, uh, private information about the company, if they're not willing to provide that, then they're back up to that $1.25 a liter markup anyway.
00:21:44.200 And we just, we don't, we don't believe that that's actually helpful.
00:21:51.120 So, um, I really do hope that this, uh, this, uh, group that the UCP is putting together, that this is one of the things that they look at and that they get back to simply asking for, um, excise information.
00:22:09.400 Because that, that is the way that it works in, in the other provinces around, um, around the country.
00:22:16.320 It's, it's just bizarre to me.
00:22:18.500 It's sort of like, you know, it's sort of like you, you apply for a job and they tell you that you need to be, let's say, you know, five foot six to, to be able to do the job.
00:22:30.240 And you're willing to send them, uh, a copy of your driver's license, which shows your height on it.
00:22:37.620 And they say, oh no, no, that's not good enough.
00:22:40.340 We now need, um, you know, uh, uh, a blood sample and your DNA test results.
00:22:47.480 It's, it's just bizarre.
00:22:49.120 It's, it's, it's really intrusive and it just seems like, like, it's just designed to, to discourage, uh, breweries from getting the lower markup.
00:23:03.380 Yeah, it's creepy.
00:23:05.200 It feels really creepy.
00:23:06.440 It feels like, like you say, it's designed to be an, a deterrent because it is so darn intrusive.
00:23:14.820 There's no way that I, as a company, would give the Alberta government my financial statements just so that I could do business with Beau Vitinov from Artisan Ales.
00:23:24.880 I mean, it's just weird.
00:23:26.160 They don't need to know these things.
00:23:27.700 They, they need to know maybe production size, but I don't know why Joe Sisi and Rachel Notley need to know about the, like, the financial statements of a Belgian beer company.
00:23:40.040 I, I don't understand it either.
00:23:42.040 Um, it's, you know, I, I guess I could kind of see if they think that, oh, you're telling us you're really tiny, but, you know, we're looking at your sales or your financial numbers and, and they're really huge.
00:23:58.840 But the problem with that is you can't compare, you know, some breweries are, they're brew pubs.
00:24:06.440 So they're going to have a completely different sort of financial statement, financial results than a tiny microbrewery that's strictly a brewery.
00:24:17.160 So, um, yeah, I, I certainly believe that it's just, it's designed to, um, you know, to prevent, uh, breweries from, from getting the lower markup.
00:24:33.580 They, the AGLC constantly assures us that that's not the case, but, um, that's, I, I think that's, that's why it was put in place.
00:24:43.740 Uh, now, but when does the, um, appeals court hearing go forward?
00:24:49.980 Like what's the next continuation of, um, the appeals court hearing with steam whistle?
00:24:55.420 So when can we find, or when are we getting close to a result?
00:25:00.520 Um, that is a good question and nobody knows the answer to that.
00:25:06.600 Uh, basically it's up now to the, to the panel of judges to, to render a decision.
00:25:14.780 And my understanding is that I, that there was no specific date given it.
00:25:22.680 I think from what I've heard, it's usually at least a month or two, but, um, I don't believe they were given a specific timeframe of when a judgment will be rendered.
00:25:38.620 Isn't that convenient?
00:25:39.800 It feels like the government's ragging the puck on this.
00:25:42.580 Um, Beau, how can people, uh, get information about, um, your legal fight with the Alberta government or even just, you know,
00:25:52.680 find out what Artisan Ales is up to?
00:25:56.140 Um, well, they can certainly go to our, uh, website and, uh, more importantly, our Facebook page.
00:26:05.060 So, uh, our website is artisan-ales.com and we've definitely kind of had the, the, the story of all of this, uh, on our, on our Facebook page.
00:26:23.220 Yeah, I think that's been the best place to get information about what you, I mean, really, you guys were put through the ringer by the Alberta government just to beat them.
00:26:33.520 And then the government just kept coming back and you beat them again.
00:26:37.280 Um, and you've really persevered.
00:26:39.200 And I think you've shown everybody that, um, David really can beat Goliath in this instance.
00:26:45.080 Um, Beau, I want to thank you for coming on the show.
00:26:46.880 Thank you for explaining such a complicated issue with such clarity because it is a lot of moving parts and a lot of things, um, to understand.
00:26:57.120 Um, and I just want to thank you for explaining it in a way that, like, a layperson, just like a beer drinker, can understand.
00:27:03.900 Um, well, you know, we appreciate that, uh, your interest in this, um, we, uh, we appreciate that you've, uh, given us an opportunity to, to kind of let people know what's happened in, in the beer market in Alberta.
00:27:21.920 And I think the most important thing to remember now is that because of what's happened, we have far more affordable, good craft beer for Albertans to drink.
00:27:40.160 You know, cheers to that, Beau.
00:27:41.660 Thanks for fighting for cheaper beer and freedom for everybody.
00:27:45.840 I want to thank you for coming on the show and hopefully we'll touch base again when that appeals court hearing come, the ruling comes down.
00:27:54.620 Yeah, let's, uh, let's do that.
00:27:56.900 Thanks for having me.
00:27:58.180 Thanks, Beau.
00:28:10.760 I think Beau is right.
00:28:12.140 I think it really is that simple.
00:28:13.560 I think the NDP are continuing to fight steam whistle and great Western brewing in court because the NDP will spare no expense to avoid the bad optics of being responsible for Alberta taxpayers being on the hook for the NDP's mistakes as we head into an election.
00:28:30.700 Like so much the NDP has done in and to this province over the last four years, it will be up to the next government to fix the mess and undo all the mistakes and damage.
00:28:40.680 Well, everybody, that's the show for tonight.
00:28:42.780 I'll see everybody back here in the same time, in the same place next weekend.
00:28:47.880 Hopefully, hopefully by then we will be liberated from our NDP oppressors.
00:28:53.340 Thanks so much for watching the show.
00:28:55.200 And remember, don't let the government tell you that you've had too much to think.
00:29:12.780 We'll see you next time.
00:29:21.460 We'll see you next time.
00:29:23.340 We'll see you next time.