Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1388 ｜ I Was Wrong About Lindsay Clancy. Why I’ve Changed My Mind

00:00:00.000 This picture that has been painted and that I at least partly believe that this was a woman

00:00:06.120 who was desperately trying to get help and was completely recklessly given all of these

00:00:12.340 medications that drove her into this psychotic episode. Lindsay Clancy was never diagnosed,

00:00:19.340 has never been diagnosed with postpartum depression, anxiety, or psychosis. Some of

00:00:23.060 the things that you have believed that I believe, they just aren't true.

00:00:30.000 hey y'all welcome to relatable happy wednesday hope everyone has had a wonderful week so far

00:00:43.260 the lindsey clancy trial is wrapping up and at the time of this recording the prosecution

00:00:48.960 and defense are scheduled to deliver their closing arguments tomorrow and then the jury

00:00:54.320 will decide the verdict in the coming days. So I want to catch you up to speed. I want to take

00:00:59.980 you through the biggest takeaways of the last week and reveal information to you that you may

00:01:05.080 not have realized about Lindsay, about this case, things that I did not realize. And I also want to

00:01:10.520 admit what I think I got wrong when I began discussing this trial and discussing this tragedy

00:01:18.000 at the beginning of this month. So let's back up just a little bit. I am not going to exhaustively

00:01:24.060 tell you about Lindsay Clancy and about everything that happened because we've already done two

00:01:29.760 episodes on this. We did one, as I said, at the beginning of August, we did one, I believe it was

00:01:35.220 last week talking about some of the conspiracy theories or just the general theories surrounding

00:01:41.140 this case and her husband, Patrick. And so you can go back and listen to or watch those previous

00:01:46.800 episodes. If you're like, I don't know anything that's going on, you can get the details there.

00:01:52.060 The case is now approaching its conclusion after nearly a month of testimony.

00:01:57.100 Keep in mind, the crime occurred, the killings of her children occurred in January of 2023.

00:02:03.520 And so now we're three and a half years, three plus years later,

00:02:08.460 finally figuring out what justice looks like for these three children.

00:02:13.640 So first, before we even get into everything that's happened

00:02:17.500 or some of the things that have happened in the trial over the past week,

00:02:20.560 there's just one thing I want to note. So originally when I talked about this case,

00:02:26.300 I really wanted to highlight the pharmaceuticals that had been prescribed to Lindsay Clancy.

00:02:33.220 And I wanted to focus on that exactly what their side effects were, what some of their interactions

00:02:38.120 were. And I wanted to emphasize what I saw and still do see in many ways, the irresponsibility

00:02:45.480 of the medical practitioners in her life because that signified a crossover that we discuss

00:02:54.600 a lot. Women, women's health, motherhood, and also what I think is a dereliction of duty by 0.63

00:03:01.480 these pharmaceutical companies and some of these doctors that overprescribe psychiatric medications 0.89

00:03:08.220 that so often make matters worse when it comes to depression, when it comes to anxiety. And so we

00:03:13.780 went through the list of the 13 medications that had been prescribed to her in a matter of a few

00:03:20.000 months, not all at the same time, but sometimes they were at the same time. Sometimes it was one

00:03:26.160 after another. And there's something that I didn't get to highlight that day that has become

00:03:32.540 more and more prominent in these discussions that I think is really important to note that yes,

00:03:38.940 she was seeing six different medical practitioners during that time. She was prescribed more than a

00:03:46.020 dozen drugs, but there were not all of those drugs in her system after she killed her children and

00:03:54.700 went to the hospital. So there were six drugs that were found in her system. So anti-anxiety,

00:04:01.640 they're called anti-anxiety medications, Adivon and Valium, anti-psychotic medications, Seroquel,

00:04:07.720 a mood stabilizer, and then what's called antidepressant, I say SSRI medication, Ramaron,

00:04:15.820 Trazodone. And some of these do cause things like drowsiness, confusion, difficulty concentrating,

00:04:23.580 lack of coordination, and they don't always interact well with each other. However,

00:04:31.020 there has been some confusion about this. A lot of people have noted, like I did, that, wow,

00:04:36.700 she's prescribed all of these things. And I also flirted with the idea, maybe this caused it. I

00:04:42.580 don't know, but maybe this caused what she did. Let me tell you why I am less convinced of that

00:04:49.800 theory now. Number one, we do have the testimony of a doctor in this trial, Dr. Justin Brower,

00:04:56.780 who testified that the dosages of Lamechdol, Remeron, and Trazodone were all within therapeutic

00:05:04.840 levels and that the Seroquel in her blood was double the regular dosage but not a toxic dosage

00:05:11.080 and that the Valium and the Adivon found in her blood were actually slightly below the prescribed

00:05:16.420 range. So that's one thing. Let me tell you the more important detail that I feel is lost as we

00:05:23.580 are talking about this. Both the prosecution and the defense, and this is in the transcript of the

00:05:29.660 trial from day one that you can go read yourself, agree that Clancy crushed and ingested these pills

00:05:35.440 after killing her children. Okay. Now I am not saying that that means that none of these

00:05:42.360 prescriptions had any effect on her psychiatric state. I'm just saying we don't actually know

00:05:49.240 how much medication she had been taking, which medications she had been taking,

00:05:54.300 because also through expert testimony on both sides, we have seen witnesses say that Clancy

00:06:01.980 wasn't really reliable and didn't seem reliable when it came to actually taking her medication

00:06:09.380 consistently. So that is a caveat that I would give to my original analysis of this,

00:06:17.020 that the case that the psychiatric medications pushed her to murder her children, I will just

00:06:24.040 say is shaky. It's just shaky. We do not know enough. I don't think the defense has brought

00:06:30.640 enough forward to convince us that that is a plausible theory. That is my take on that.

00:06:36.620 The toxicology results don't reflect the drug concentrations that were present actually when

00:06:43.060 killing her children. They were probably, this report was probably mostly affected by what she

00:06:49.900 took afterwards. So I think that is important to know this picture that has been painted and that

00:06:57.600 I at least partly have believed or, or assumed was true. When I first started looking at this

00:07:06.620 case, that this was a woman who was desperately trying to get help from multiple doctors and was

00:07:13.500 completely recklessly given all of these medications that she was taking at the same

00:07:19.160 time that drove her into this psychotic episode, that is not a proven narrative. I think that's

00:07:27.540 the most charitable way to say it. That is the defense's narrative or part of their narrative,

00:07:32.940 a version of their narrative, but that is not actually a narrative that can stand very strong

00:07:40.780 based on the facts and based on the timeline. I still have my stance about SSRIs. I still think

00:07:47.540 that she was a struggling woman. I still think that a lot of these medications probably did more

00:07:52.900 harm than good, but the idea that it was all enough to push her to methodically murder her 1.00

00:08:00.000 children the way that she did with trigger warning, exercise bans, with them facing face

00:08:06.880 down while the other ones are probably panicking or running away somewhere. I don't think that

00:08:14.860 that case is very strong. Here's another piece of information that I did not realize when I first

00:08:21.940 heard talking about this. There is no evidence, there was no evidence presented at trial that

00:08:29.740 any of Clancy's treating physicians formally diagnosed her with postpartum depression.

00:08:35.040 She was never diagnosed, as far as we know, from any of the clinicians that she saw

00:08:42.100 before she killed her children with postpartum depression or postpartum psychosis, never.

00:08:47.740 For example, according to the Boston Globe and CBS, she went to Women and Infants Hospital

00:08:51.740 and the clinicians there specifically concluded that she did not have postpartum depression.

00:08:58.880 While McLean Hospital diagnosed her with severe major depressive disorder without psychotic

00:09:04.240 features. So she was given these medications for a general mood disorder, which is a diagnosis

00:09:10.320 that's in the DSM-5, but she was never diagnosed with postpartum psychosis. She was never diagnosed

00:09:16.900 with postpartum anxiety. She was never diagnosed, as far as we know, the defense certainly hasn't

00:09:21.900 said so, with postpartum anxiety. That just goes to show how the defense, how media, and how social

00:09:30.220 media and the narrative that is pushed can completely just change and characterize how

00:09:36.400 you think about a case and how you think about what justice looks like, I guarantee you that

00:09:42.240 that fact shocked you. That Lindsay Clancy was never diagnosed, has never been diagnosed with

00:09:47.780 postpartum depression, anxiety, or psychosis. That those diagnoses have only been applied to her

00:09:54.080 since the trial started. So I think that that is also worth knowing. Maybe consider that some of

00:10:03.200 the things that you have believed that I believed, or at least partly believed about this case that

00:10:09.280 has painted her as an entirely sympathetic figure, that those things just aren't, they just aren't

00:10:15.240 true. Now we'll get into the nuances of this too, and how we can feel compassion for her and see her

00:10:22.520 truthfully and objectively separate from the heinous nature of this murder in a second. But I

00:10:29.700 just want to take us through the prosecution and the defense's arguments and present to you what

00:10:35.040 these expert witnesses, what these doctors have said on both sides of this case so we can have a

00:10:41.320 better, less TikTok-ified understanding of this trial and what justice should look like. First,

00:10:47.480 let me pause. Let me tell you, if you need some sanity, if you need some clarity, if you want to

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00:13:20.480 off. Go to gojevity.com slash Allie, code Allie. Just a little recap of this past week, last week,

00:13:33.740 and we'll put up this video. It's a silent video, so make sure you watch this if you're just

00:13:40.240 listening. Um, but these are the women who are standing outside of the trial supporting Lindsay. 0.98

00:13:47.080 These are women wearing pink. Um, you've got different buttons on that are supporting her. 0.98

00:13:53.940 I saw some of the interviews of these women talking about their theories about Patrick,

00:13:59.380 but also just wanting to say like, we support you. I find this very grotesque. Like I'm just

00:14:06.000 going to be honest, I find this very grotesque. I don't find that these women are trying to be 1.00

00:14:12.260 nuanced, that they're just raising awareness for postpartum issues or women needing more help

00:14:18.880 or women needing more support, but they're also highlighting the need for justice for the

00:14:26.900 children. I mean, maybe some of these women are, I don't know all of their minds, but to show up 1.00

00:14:33.080 in uniform in a particular color to support the woman who again, methodically murdered her 0.94

00:14:40.120 children, whatever you think drove her to that, that is what happened. I didn't see any buttons 0.88

00:14:45.860 with their faces on it. I didn't see any posters with their faces on it. I didn't see any say their

00:14:52.200 name signs out there. It was all about Lindsay. And look, as I've said before, I mean, my take

00:14:59.620 is that, yeah, she had some things going on as we'll talk about mentally, and she might have

00:15:04.920 been going through some hard things, but probably every person who murders someone is going through

00:15:11.820 a hard thing. Every person who commits a heinous crime, especially against children, especially

00:15:17.060 against their own children, is on some level of psychotic, is probably dealing with some kind of

00:15:24.460 mental health issue is probably on some kind of SSRI, does that completely remove their agency?

00:15:33.400 And does it completely remove their liability? No, there's no world in which she's just going to

00:15:40.620 go free. I know, I understand that. Psychiatric hospital versus prison. But she could get

00:15:47.360 released from the psychiatric hospital in a year, in two years, I mean, in a few years.

00:15:52.760 is that justice for these children? Well, it depends. It depends on what you think about

00:15:57.860 the prosecution's argument is that, look, she maintained full faculties that allowed her to

00:16:05.720 be very purposeful and deliberate in making the decision to murder her children. She understood

00:16:10.800 what she was doing, and therefore she needs to go to prison. And the defense, which says, yes,

00:16:16.480 she did kill her children, that's not contested, by the way, those of you who think Patrick did it,

00:16:20.520 it's been three and a half years since this crime was committed. The defense would have explored

00:16:27.480 every possible theory of other people's guilt or of her not being guilty if that were a viable route

00:16:34.740 to take. But apparently it's not because both the defense and prosecution say, yes, she did it.

00:16:40.100 But the defense is saying, but she didn't mean to. She wasn't of the right mind. It's the doctor's

00:16:44.920 fault. It's these people's fault. And she didn't know what she was doing. She was suffering a

00:16:49.060 psychotic episode due to postpartum problems. And so this is basically what they are arguing using

00:16:56.760 right now or over this past week, rather, these expert witnesses on both sides. So we heard from

00:17:04.040 a number of witnesses called by the defense and then later the prosecution. These witnesses were

00:17:09.420 not her personal doctors, so not the clinicians that had prescribed her the medication before

00:17:15.740 these killings. They weren't her own mental health providers, but these in the past week

00:17:21.000 were experts who interviewed her directly or reviewed her medical history and then formed

00:17:25.760 an expert opinion on her state of mind during the time of the killings. So we'll go through some of

00:17:31.620 those. Dr. Paul Zeisel, he is a clinical and forensic psychologist. He was called by the

00:17:38.280 defense, diagnosed her with bipolar disorder with postpartum psychosis and concluded that Lindsay

00:17:45.320 could neither appreciate the wrongfulness of her actions nor conform her conduct to the law.

00:17:51.040 So that was his argument. And then the defense also called forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Philip

00:17:56.540 Resnick. He evaluated Clancy and diagnosed her with bipolar two disorder, severe depression,

00:18:02.080 and postpartum psychosis. And similarly concluded that she was not criminally responsible

00:18:07.700 for the killings. And then there was a hospital chaplain, obviously not a mental health professional,

00:18:14.000 but someone who had just spoken with her, Sheila Kavanaugh. She testified about the more than 200

00:18:19.500 visits she had with Clancy following the killings. Kavanaugh recalled Clancy expressing love and

00:18:24.980 grief for her children and saying during their first conversation that she was glad they were

00:18:31.840 safe. Now I want you to remember that, that this is a witness for the defense. Okay. So the team

00:18:38.820 that is defending Lindsay Clancy called this witness a hospital chaplain who said in their

00:18:44.420 first conversation that Lindsay Clancy said, I'm glad my children were safe. Okay. That is going

00:18:51.880 to be pertinent in just a little bit. The defense rested on Friday, August 21st. After calling about

00:18:58.240 10 witnesses, Clancy did not testify. The prosecution immediately began its rebuttal case,

00:19:04.860 calling its own psychiatric experts to challenge the defense's conclusions about psychosis and

00:19:11.120 criminal responsibility. One of the psychiatrists that was called forward by the prosecution,

00:19:17.060 Dr. Avar Mack, also evaluated Clancy, but later in her treatment. Okay. So April, 2026,

00:19:23.440 he diagnosed her, not just based on her, uh, not just based on her state when he talked to her,

00:19:30.300 but also reviewed her medical records with major depression and anxiety, but found no evidence that

00:19:36.260 she suffered from bipolar disorder, mania, or psychosis at the time of the killings. Again,

00:19:42.360 not just based on what she said in 2026, because I know a lot of people have said that, well,

00:19:47.320 how can you possibly make an accurate assessment three years later? That's not the only assessment

00:19:54.320 that they were making they were also making assessments based on the um expertise and the

00:20:01.900 analysis of the mental health practitioners that saw her and treated her at the time and before

00:20:07.600 these killings um dr mac also notes that she had not been diagnosed as we said earlier with

00:20:15.740 postpartum depression and she he pointed out also that she killed her children when she was

00:20:22.360 eight months postpartum. And so that doesn't really work with this idea that she was suffering

00:20:28.960 from an acute psychotic episode due to intense postpartum depression. It's not one.

00:20:34.840 There are times that you can designate that it has occurred in the postpartum period.

00:20:40.820 DSM states that that would be within four weeks of birth. It also allows for the symptoms to

00:20:48.120 have occurred before birth um so that is the standard that we utilize when we choose to add

00:20:56.960 on that designation of something being postpartum do you know whether or not

00:21:02.200 lindsey was ever diagnosed with postpartum depression

00:21:07.060 i believe that the various notes from the clinicians over the year of 2022-2023

00:21:17.300 utilize the term unspecified mood disorder. Right. How about postpartum depression?

00:21:26.020 I don't think that appellation was used. And he's right about that, by the way, 0.79

00:21:32.300 that that was not used, at least from the reporting that we've seen, she had not been

00:21:39.020 diagnosed with any of those things. And then we had Dr. Kirk Heilbrunn, trying to pronounce that

00:21:46.800 correctly. He is a clinical and forensic psychologist and Drexel University professor

00:21:52.520 and all of these people, not just on the prosecution side. When they get up there,

00:21:56.880 they spend a long time talking about their credibility, why really they have been called

00:22:02.180 forth. I mean, they don't say why they've been called forth, but that is what the attorneys are

00:22:05.960 trying to do to show you, look, this person is credible. They're not going to be biased. They

00:22:10.160 were very careful in this. And so the jury can know right from the start, like what their ethos

00:22:18.860 is, why they should be trusted. This person is highly, highly credentialed and has been working

00:22:24.800 in this field for a very long time. Now he testified, and I think that this is interesting,

00:22:30.960 that the prosecution's two witnesses actually disagreed on the diagnosis. He testified that

00:22:37.580 he ultimately diagnosed Clancy with bipolar two disorder. He says that he spent three days with

00:22:43.640 Clancy assessing her, um, and talking with her about everything that happened, but also reviewing

00:22:51.440 all of her past diagnoses and analyzing everything. Um, every, you know, doctor that had assessed her

00:23:00.160 and all of her different medications and things like that. And after assessing her, evaluating

00:23:05.640 her himself, he rejected the defense's contention that Clancy was psychotic when she killed the

00:23:14.940 children. According to the Boston Globe, he testified that Clancy's account of suddenly

00:23:19.280 hearing a male voice commanding her to kill the children, despite not experiencing that voice

00:23:24.720 before or afterward, was highly unusual if someone is truly psychotic and hallucinating

00:23:31.700 and hearing voices. Sot3. To put it mildly, that would be a very, very unusual

00:23:39.960 pattern or manifestation of how this kind of thing comes about. Very unusual. I've been doing this

00:23:49.360 kind of evaluation for many, many years, and I'm always very careful when someone tells me that

00:23:57.100 they experienced the symptom only during the course of committing an offense.

00:24:03.560 Now, he says that in his evaluation that she said that it was only in that 18-minute window

00:24:11.260 when she killed her children and then killed herself. I believe he said 18 minutes. I don't

00:24:16.120 have that note right in front of me. But from what I remember, I watched all of this testimony

00:24:20.280 myself, that she said that she heard that voice. And he is now expanding on here why that is just

00:24:28.620 so rare. And his assessment, I encourage you to watch his entire testimony from Monday and then

00:24:36.580 also Tuesday, because he is very sympathetic to her. You can tell. He really does believe that

00:24:44.400 this was a struggling woman. He describes her as someone who is very bright and who seemed to

00:24:50.260 care a lot about success and perfection, but also described her as a very stable person,

00:24:58.600 really her whole life, but even in the assessment. And also that she became what seemed to him as

00:25:06.460 purposely guarded as the questioning went on. So at first demonstrated a really keen sense

00:25:13.660 of everything that happened, able to recall tiny details of not just the crime, but also just her

00:25:20.240 life and her past. And then as the days went on, she got more and more obfuscating, didn't want to

00:25:30.520 talk. And he just talks about this. And he really kind of like builds this case, I believe, even if

00:25:37.660 this is not what he's trying to do, he builds the case that, look, this is a sane woman. Yeah,

00:25:43.220 she struggled. She had some issues. She had some mental health problems. He goes on and on about 0.97

00:25:47.720 how she really wanted to commit suicide and thinks that that was a contributing factor here,

00:25:52.820 but he clearly does not think that she was crazy or insane. He actually characterizes these killings

00:26:00.120 as altruistic filicide. So this refers to a parent killing their children under the belief that doing

00:26:07.440 so is in the children's interest. So in this theory, Clancy intended to die. This is again,

00:26:15.580 what he's positing and did not want to leave her children behind because she believed that

00:26:21.160 they would suffer without her support. Altruistic filicide is a term that's used 0.94

00:26:27.600 that means killing your kids out of love. Not because you're trying to be

00:26:35.480 cruel or for material gain or because you want them out of your lives or any of that, 0.96

00:26:41.420 but killing them out of love so that you could, basically, they wouldn't have to suffer so you 0.84

00:26:52.840 could prevent their suffering. Now, this is not what the defense wants to hear. This is not what 0.59

00:26:59.180 the defense is trying to argue because that doesn't alleviate someone of agency or liability

00:27:05.540 in the same way that being truly psychotic would.

00:27:10.020 Dr. Heilbrunn also testified that Clancy told her children,

00:27:16.060 this would be according to Clancy,

00:27:17.940 to go be with God as she killed them.

00:27:20.560 He said this, one of the things that she said,

00:27:22.340 this is very disturbing,

00:27:23.840 set a chill up my spine when I was watching this.

00:27:26.160 One of the things that she said

00:27:27.600 when I asked about what happened

00:27:29.260 is that in the course of strangling each child,

00:27:32.140 she said, go to God, baby, go to God.

00:27:35.540 So that was the part of what he believes was her expectation that she and the children would be

00:27:42.240 together in heaven with God. Now, remember when I told you to note what the chaplain,

00:27:49.580 which was the defense's witness said earlier, Sheila Cavanaugh, she said in her first conversation

00:27:56.340 with Clancy after she had been hospitalized after the killings, she said that Clancy

00:28:05.400 told her she was glad her children were safe. Again, that is the defense's witness saying that

00:28:12.140 to me, if I am to piece things together, that actually supports the assessment of the prosecution's

00:28:19.420 witness who says she did this because as crazy as it sounds to us, she actually thought that

00:28:27.160 they would be safe. Now you might be thinking, well, isn't that psychotic? Doesn't that actually

00:28:32.280 make you psychotic? Well, according to this psychologist, no, that's not necessarily psychotic.

00:28:38.420 That could be a part of depression. That could be a part of a bipolar disorder. That could be a part

00:28:43.980 of some kind of mood disorder, but he argues that that's not actually something that is typical

00:28:49.960 in psychosis. And then he also goes on to say what the defense really didn't take while that

00:28:57.720 actually she was basically of sound mind when she did this. Let me pause, tell you about our next

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00:29:49.300 through a biblical perspective. If you go to worldwatch.news slash Allie, you can use code

00:29:55.740 Allie. You'll get a 30-day free trial. See if you like it. See if your teens like it. I guarantee

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00:30:11.300 Okay. Just FYI, my friends, I was a little slow in doing those ads. And so my next few ads are

00:30:18.840 going to be a little closer together. I know sometimes that's a hard listen when I have to do

00:30:22.520 that, but it's important that I get all of our wonderful, wonderful sponsors in. So just a heads

00:30:28.200 up on that. Now I do want to note something about, as we're, as we're talking about this

00:30:34.220 psychological assessment before I get into when he, Dr. Heilburn really drops the hammer and says,

00:30:40.340 okay, I think that she was criminally responsible for this. Is that one thing that doesn't come

00:30:46.280 into play and that can't really come into play is the spiritual aspect of this. And in fact,

00:30:52.360 Dr. Heilbrunn tried to talk a little bit about Clancy's theology or supposed theology that she

00:30:59.400 grew up Catholic. And so there was some discrepancy between Catholic theology and then like what she

00:31:05.440 thought would happen if she and her children died at the same time and she committed suicide and the

00:31:12.600 defense didn't like that. They tried to call for a mistrial. That didn't work. And so you really

00:31:18.020 can't bring up spiritual aspects of this, even if it does seem pertinent. I think that fact actually

00:31:24.000 seems pertinent to what this witness was trying to argue with his diagnosis of her. But what can't

00:31:31.880 ever really be considered in courts of law is the reality of demonic influence. Like he says,

00:31:40.140 okay, it's really not usual that you hear this voice that tells you to do something and you only

00:31:45.140 hear it once. That's probably true when it comes to the psychiatric diagnoses. I don't know if

00:31:51.380 it's necessarily true when it comes to demonic influence. I think it's very obvious that not

00:31:56.520 just Lindsay Clancy, but anyone who murders someone, especially murders your own children

00:32:00.980 in this way is influenced demonically. Am I saying that absolves anyone of responsibility? No,

00:32:07.340 the opposite. That's, that's the thing is that we're talking about only about psychology

00:32:11.780 and we can't bring up the obvious that obviously there is some kind of demonic influence going on

00:32:19.900 here, just as there is with every single person that has ever committed murder for all of time.

00:32:26.520 And if we were to dismiss the guilt of all of those people, then we would never have justice.

00:32:33.240 we would never have consequences for our actions. We wouldn't even have a justice system. I'm not

00:32:38.920 saying she didn't also have mental issues that she needed help with, but I just want to say,

00:32:46.640 like when we're talking about the DSM-5 and what's possible and what's not and outside of this window

00:32:50.680 and inside of this window, well, Satan can't be put into the DSM-5. Like he is not always

00:32:57.420 is diagnosable. The demonic is not always diagnosable, and yet we know that he is the

00:33:03.420 prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience,

00:33:07.260 as Ephesians 2 says. So we just don't want to lose sight of the spiritual reality and the

00:33:12.780 spiritual warfare that occurs here. And I think we have to be careful as Christians not to

00:33:18.220 psychologize everything that we know to be spiritual, right? Like we know that there's

00:33:24.320 actual good and evil. We know that there is original sin. We know that people can actually

00:33:29.760 do really evil things and it's not always a mental health problem. Like it's not always that someone

00:33:35.320 was crazy. It's just that they did this evil thing and it's hard for us to wrap our minds around it

00:33:41.360 and you do have to hold evil accountable. Now, this psychologist, Dr. Heilbrunn, I have such a

00:33:49.440 hard time saying his name, Heilbrunn. He returned yesterday and he testified that it was his

00:33:56.420 conclusion based on his thorough assessment that, yeah, she was criminally responsible.

00:34:02.580 So five. Did you form an opinion to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty as to whether

00:34:07.620 Ms. Clancy was able to conform her conduct to the requirements of the law when she killed

00:34:12.580 her children? Yes. And what is that opinion? That her capacity to conform a conduct to the

00:34:18.680 requirements of the law is again best understood by considering the seriousness of her suicide

00:34:25.440 attempt and her strong desire not to leave her children. She demonstrated such self-control

00:34:32.120 throughout the day on January 24th, and her actions between 5.15 and 6 p.m. that afternoon

00:34:39.580 were influenced by her depression and her hopelessness about her life and the desire

00:34:45.580 to end the pain she had experienced since October.

00:34:49.660 Although this depression and hopelessness influenced her decisions,

00:34:54.400 she retained control over whether, when, and how she carried it out

00:35:00.260 and the inclusion of her children.

00:35:04.020 And, Doctor, did you form an opinion to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty

00:35:07.840 as to whether or not the defendant was criminally responsible when she killed her children?

00:35:13.980 Yes.

00:35:14.500 And what is that opinion?

00:35:19.900 My opinion, my clinical opinion, since I'm not the decision maker here, but my clinical opinion is that she was criminally responsible on January 24th.

00:35:32.240 So he says she knew what she did.

00:35:35.120 She knew what she was doing earlier in the testimony.

00:35:37.500 And I wish we could play the whole thing and all of the clips, but we just can't.

00:35:40.400 But earlier in the testimony, he went through, or he at least acknowledged the decisions

00:35:47.700 that had to be made and the planning, the purposefulness that was placed behind the

00:35:55.920 plot to kill her children, that there were deliberate decisions that were made, that

00:36:02.460 she had to tell Patrick to go do not one, but two different errands, that she took the 0.93

00:36:09.040 children down to the basement. That she then tried to crush up the pills and take them and

00:36:16.800 then jump out of the window after she slit herself with a knife. That she did all of this

00:36:24.300 in a short window, being able to estimate when her husband Patrick would be back. And also during

00:36:32.960 this time she calls patrick patrick calls her and then he testified yeah she did seem distracted

00:36:40.260 but not distressed and then um or patrick calls her she doesn't pick up but she calls right back

00:36:46.740 that's when she was distracted but not not distressed and so she is not in some as we can

00:36:54.180 tell from her own testimony or her like own uh evaluation and answers to these assessments

00:37:00.420 that she was in some state of paranoia or panic or that she had lost all sense of rationality.

00:37:06.720 That's what you see with a lot of these psychotic episodes. You lose all sense of reality and

00:37:12.200 rationality. You can't plan. You can't think about like what time are things going to happen? Oh,

00:37:18.320 I need to answer this phone call and I need to act really calm. And oh, I need to go down to

00:37:24.100 the basement and I need to plot all of this. That's what she did. It was a step-by-step plot

00:37:31.280 to kill each of her children, which is why Dr. Heilbrunn says that this seemed to be something

00:37:40.440 that was not psychotic. It was rather something where she thought that she was doing the right 0.95

00:37:46.180 thing. So now what happens next? Judge Sullivan indicated that closing arguments, as I said,

00:37:52.520 or expected on Thursday, tomorrow, August 26th.

00:37:57.460 The case would then be submitted to the jury for deliberations.

00:38:01.260 A conviction for first-degree murder carries a sentence of life in prison

00:38:04.700 without the possibility of parole.

00:38:06.860 According to People Magazine, if Clancy is found not criminally responsible

00:38:10.140 because of mental illness, she would instead be subject to commitment proceedings

00:38:14.500 for psychiatric treatment.

00:38:17.240 So we actually don't even know what her being committed would look like,

00:38:21.460 how long that would be. We just don't know. There's a lot that we still don't know is going

00:38:26.860 to happen. I will say, as I have looked at this case more and more, as I have looked at the

00:38:33.300 details, I have become less and less convinced that she is not fully responsible for this.

00:38:39.640 It's really interesting, the reaction that I get also for talking about the existence of toxic

00:38:45.580 empathy when it comes to this, because that is a lot of what is happening online in the street

00:38:51.140 When it comes to these women who are unconditionally defending her, who are making these videos as we played last week saying, me too, Lindsay, throwing ice into the bathtub to try to show the seriousness of postpartum depression relating to Lindsay Clancy that way, spinning all of these crazy conspiracies about Patrick Clancy.

00:39:15.140 again, I don't know that Patrick is like some great guy. I have no affinity towards him. I just

00:39:19.540 think it's really serious when you make accusations towards someone without any

00:39:24.200 real evidence and think that you know better and care more than the defense. I just think that's

00:39:29.540 like a really serious, slanderous thing to do. I don't want to participate in that. And when I

00:39:34.240 point these things out, I get so many angry messages, so many comments and people have

00:39:39.920 criticize me. And maybe this is a valid critique for saying that these are liberal women. And the 1.00

00:39:46.160 truth is that it's not always liberal women. And so some people have said, why make this a left 1.00

00:39:49.920 versus right issue? And that is true. There is certainly a significant crossover with people 0.52

00:39:56.140 who believe conspiracies about Charlie Kirk and conspiracies about Lindsay Clancy, and they're

00:40:00.100 not all on the left. I know that's going to make people mad, but there is significant crossover.

00:40:04.380 I'm not saying it's total crossover. I'm not saying the Venn diagram is a perfect circle,

00:40:07.740 but i'm saying there's a venn diagram i'm saying that there is a crossover there and those who are

00:40:13.100 so true crime obsessed and those who have been maybe unknowingly doused in toxic empathy to

00:40:20.160 where they focus so much on the plight of lindsey clancy and your ability to relate to her as a

00:40:25.220 struggling mom that you've forgotten about the little precious faces of these innocent children

00:40:31.300 that were killed, that were choked to death by their mom with exercise bans. I mean,

00:40:40.840 we're talking about toddlers and babies here. Yeah, that's what toxic empathy is. It's not

00:40:45.780 all empathy. It's when your empathy for one individual or one group has become so strong

00:40:52.280 that you are blinded to both reality and morality, that you've forgotten about the people on the

00:40:57.360 other side of the moral equation. We see it with abortion when you care so much for the plight of

00:41:02.700 the pregnant woman in crisis that you forget about the rights and the pain of the person

00:41:06.500 inside of the womb who will actually be suffering from abortion. You care so much about the plight

00:41:11.880 of the migrant that you forget about the pain of someone like Lake and Riley or the consequences

00:41:17.120 of borderlessness. And you feel so deeply for what you have deemed postpartum psychosis when

00:41:23.660 it comes to Lindsay Clancy that you forget about the justice and the existence of the physical

00:41:28.600 torture of her children. I'm not saying that's true of everyone who has a different take than

00:41:34.160 me on this case. I'm not saying that, but I do see it a lot. I see it a whole lot. And it's not

00:41:40.880 just liberal women. It's all different kinds of women. And I do understand it, but my opinion is 1.00

00:41:47.400 that you are misguided. I do think that she was a struggling woman and we can understand that and

00:41:54.460 pray for her, but that she is also a methodical murderer and most methodical murderers are also

00:42:00.620 struggling in some way. Now there's also a really weird crossover between those who are, um, those

00:42:10.520 who are supporting Lindsay Clancy unconditionally. And again, I know that's not all of you who like

00:42:15.180 have maybe a different take than me on this. But those who are unconditionally supporting her,

00:42:20.800 saying pastricated, all that stuff, and the new age, and witchcraft, and zodiac signs,

00:42:24.680 I'm not kidding. It's really, really strange. Bad mental things are happening on TikTok.

00:42:30.880 Get off TikTok. Get off TikTok. I know I have a profile on TikTok. I've never logged into TikTok

00:42:36.720 a day in my life. Not once. I couldn't tell you what a TikTok feed looks like. I don't know how

00:42:41.340 TikTok works. I think that alternative opinion presence for alternative opinions is important

00:42:47.020 on TikTok. I've never scrolled on TikTok a day in my life. And so I encourage you to get off TikTok

00:42:52.700 because the things that are happening on there are insane. Okay. Before I play you some examples of

00:42:57.520 that and talk about the spiritual significance of it, let me pause. Let me tell you about Seven

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00:44:01.340 Okay. So one thing that we're seeing is that women on TikTok are using astrology to argue 0.97

00:44:07.880 that Patrick actually committed the killings and they're using divination. Um, they're using

00:44:13.680 what they claim to be some connection with the divine and with the universe to try to prove

00:44:22.060 their case. So they're using Lindsay and Patrick's birth dates to create birth charts that in their

00:44:26.460 view, explain why Patrick did it and how he managed to convince Lindsay that she was the

00:44:31.020 one who carried it out too much time on your hands, too much time. What is it in idle minds

00:44:36.440 is the devil's workshop. That's what's going on here. Sot 10. Patrick Clancy did it and you will

00:44:41.200 never convince me otherwise. His sun sign is at 24 degrees of Gemini. That is a violence degree.

00:44:49.160 That's a malevolence degree and a danger of accidents degree. So to all the Patrick Clancy

00:44:56.060 haters, I can validate for you that he was a jackass because he was cheating on Lindsay 0.93

00:45:03.180 and i confirmed it this is his chart so i wanted to take a look at her birth chart and give my 0.96

00:45:10.460 thoughts on the energy of lindsey clancy lindsey likely had a very deep need to protect nurture

00:45:18.220 and provide safety to children her own children and vulnerable populations i believe patrick

00:45:26.600 clancy likely played into these deep insecurities that was why he was able to gaslight her into

00:45:33.080 thinking that she was the one who did in fact unalive her children okay i just want to note

00:45:40.840 that something that we haven't heard but that now i've heard multiple reporters who are actually at

00:45:46.880 the trial and reporting on it i've said was the worst part of the trial the hardest part of the

00:45:51.300 trial it wasn't watching lindsey clancy cry wasn't seeing her in the wheelchair but it was actually

00:45:56.720 hearing the 911 call from Patrick Clancy to authorities, that his screams sounded almost

00:46:05.420 otherworldly, like non-human. They were so guttural. They were so incredibly desperate.

00:46:12.760 It's hard for me to see how you fake something like that. So I'm not saying that would be enough

00:46:19.560 if we were in a court of law, but he's not on trial. And there's a reason that he's not on trial.

00:46:25.800 and again there's a reason why the defense hasn't pursued that so remember don't call conspiracy

00:46:32.640 everything that the world calls conspiracy we read in the book of isaiah we have to be very

00:46:37.800 thoughtful we have to be brands of course astrology is not a scientific method it's not thoughtful it

00:46:43.500 has its roots in ancient pagan traditions it's a religious belief system that christians should have

00:46:48.780 absolutely no pardon whatsoever, but this just goes to show like social media, astrology,

00:46:55.920 the new age, conspiracy, true crime, toxic empathy, all of these things are coming together 0.99

00:47:03.020 in this very, what I think is dangerous and disturbing combination of the American female 1.00

00:47:09.900 psyche. Um, there's a reason why in Deuteronomy and Leviticus, like God warns against use of 1.00

00:47:17.820 divination, use of necromancy, use of mediums, use of magic, use of fortune, fortune tellers,

00:47:23.780 tarot cards, anything like that, because that's not where we're supposed to be seeking wisdom

00:47:28.080 because all of that makes us vulnerable, I think, to demonic influence. Um, and then also like we

00:47:34.520 see over and over again, that the forbidding of witchcraft also comes right before or right after

00:47:41.700 the forbidding of child sacrifice. Deuteronomy 18, starting in verse 9. Actually, we'll start in

00:47:48.880 verse 10 when God is giving them the commands. When you go into the land that the Lord your God

00:47:54.100 is going to give you, don't follow the ways of the people who live around you, of those other 1.00

00:47:59.120 nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,

00:48:05.440 anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens or a sorcerer or a charmer or

00:48:12.560 a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead for whoever does these things is an

00:48:17.540 abomination to the lord practicing magic and these kinds of things and child sacrifice go hand in

00:48:23.680 hand that seems to be connected when it comes to the analysis of this lindsey clancy case at least

00:48:31.040 from some corners of the internet. So stay firm on this. I got a lot of people mad in my DMs. I

00:48:37.620 got a lot of people mad in my comments. And I got a lot of people who are saying, I'm just, you know,

00:48:44.540 I'm telling you not to critically think wrong. I'm begging you to. I'm begging you to critically

00:48:50.760 think, actually. I'm not telling you not to ask questions. I'm saying, please ask questions.

00:48:55.700 Please ask questions, especially of the TikTokers and the podcasters. That includes me. 0.94

00:49:00.380 ask questions of your own thoughts, ask questions of like where you got the idea that you did.

00:49:06.500 Maybe you're like me and you thought that this whole time she had been diagnosed with

00:49:09.840 postpartum depression and psychosis. She hasn't. She hasn't. So just ask yourself if like you

00:49:15.800 really have a good understanding of this trial before you rip someone to shreds for pointing

00:49:21.600 out that, hey, like maybe it's not the most discerning thing in the world to just unconditionally

00:49:26.520 support her. Now, I told you that we would talk about this for a second, and we will.

00:49:33.960 I just want to note that, yes, of course, there is a world in which you can say, as we have, 0.88

00:49:42.420 that SSRIs are damaging, women need more help postpartum, murder is bad. Sure, but we don't

00:49:49.540 have to do that in every single situation at every time. I think I've done that till the cows come

00:49:54.940 home, actually, when it comes to this case. Not everything I say is going to be divided into those

00:50:00.920 groups, though. Yeah, multiple things can be true at once, but we can also just say murder is the 0.79

00:50:06.540 worst of them, though. Like, killing your kids is the worst of all of them. We don't always have to 0.98

00:50:11.500 nuance every single thing that we say just to make sure that we're appeasing every single person.

00:50:16.060 I'm so tired of that on the internet. I mean, that started in 2020, but it also ended in 2020

00:50:20.720 for me. Okay. And I know some people are still stuck in that where you think that the people

00:50:25.060 who talk on the internet have to appease every single like facet of what you think about something,

00:50:30.440 but that's not the case. Like sometimes things do end up being black and white. I said that it

00:50:35.760 wasn't in the beginning when I first started talking about this, I said, it's not cut and

00:50:39.160 dry. Those are my direct words. To me, it pretty much is now to me. It pretty much is. You might

00:50:44.740 not agree. You might not agree with me, but that's where I am. And you can yell at me all you want to

00:50:50.460 and look, I'm not infallible. And you're welcome to have your own opinion on it. I just think a

00:50:56.600 lot of women when it comes to this case are being duped in a way that you would not if it were a

00:51:01.820 man committing this crime. I just don't think that all of you have the same compassion for

00:51:06.840 Irina Zarutska's murderer, who definitely had mental health issues, who definitely was on

00:51:11.900 medications, who definitely was crazy. I think you probably agree with me that he needs the death 0.99

00:51:17.200 penalty. But the defense and the media have done a very, very good job of painting an extremely

00:51:22.480 sympathetic picture of her to where we've just totally negated justice based on made-up mental

00:51:28.400 health diagnoses and a narrative that a lot of women can relate to. It's not good. It's not good

00:51:35.480 that our sense of justice shouldn't be affected that much. All right, let's talk about our next

00:51:42.200 ad. I know it's kind of close together, and then we'll do a lifestyle pitter-patter. And we will,

00:51:46.420 of course we will follow up on all of the lindsey clancy stuff when we are able to record in a

00:51:52.780 timeline that actually like makes sense with everything that's going on and we can give you

00:51:56.700 a full analysis of what the jury decides and all of that um all right let me pause let me tell you

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00:53:01.480 okay while we're going to do lifestyle pitter patter it feels a little weird to do

00:53:11.480 our light-hearted hillary clinton ai generated making cookies in the kitchen

00:53:16.900 intro that we typically do when it comes to lifestyle pitter patter because this is not

00:53:22.820 a light-hearted topic this is a sad topic and that is the death of dolly parton the country music

00:53:28.720 legend, actress, philanthropist. She has died at the age of 80. I opened up my phone and I gasped

00:53:35.600 and I was like, oh my goodness. She's just someone that you would imagine dying at the age of 104.

00:53:41.020 She's just lived such a life, but still seemed so vivacious. It was her publicist who posted

00:53:48.160 this announcement. She died peacefully Tuesday in Nashville, according to him. She wrote classics

00:53:54.780 like Jolene, I Will Always Love You, but in addition to being a brilliant creative mind,

00:54:02.060 she dedicated much of her life to helping others. For example, in 1988, she founded the Dollywood

00:54:09.160 Foundation to support education in her home county. One of its early initiatives offered

00:54:15.160 $500 to seventh and eighth grade students who pledged to finish high school, an effort aimed

00:54:20.500 at reducing the local dropout rate. In 1995, she founded Dolly Parton's Imagination Library,

00:54:26.060 inspired by her father, who was unable to read or write. The Imagination Library sends free books

00:54:31.620 to children from birth to age five, and it's now not just in her home county, but also in

00:54:40.100 communities all around the United States. And for the past 31 years, the program has given more than

00:54:45.520 300 million books to children around the world. This is also just an example that free enterprise

00:54:51.120 and the private sector does such a better job at, um, helping those in need, including with

00:54:57.240 literacy than the government does. And she has also provided millions of dollars in disaster

00:55:02.000 relief, including aid to families who lost their homes in the devastating 2016 East Tennessee

00:55:06.360 wildfires. Obviously is an incredible, uh, just industry Titan as well. I mean, she has

00:55:12.700 done so much with her name. Uh, she's got, she's got Dollywood. She's got an amusement park. She's

00:55:21.120 got all different kinds of things. And she has just brought a lot of joy to a lot of people for

00:55:27.140 a very long time. She is one of those rare figures that the left and the right both find to be almost

00:55:33.760 entirely unproblematic and like both really like her. She has done a really good job of staying

00:55:40.120 out of controversy, uh, for many decades and her legacy, especially when it comes to the education

00:55:46.600 of children will last a very long time. It will outlast her. And so, um, I just want to play you

00:55:54.940 this where she is, um, singing one of my favorite hymns.

00:56:10.120 How great thou art

00:56:17.060 How great thou art

00:56:23.300 Beautiful. She's beautiful. So talented.

00:56:31.680 That was way back in the 1970s.

00:56:34.180 I love that song. I love her voice.

00:56:36.620 What a talent that we've lost.

00:56:38.300 All right, let me read you my last sponsor and then we'll get out of here for the day.

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00:57:03.900 The most important part of your meal totally accounted for.

00:57:06.380 That's the protein.

00:57:07.100 That's the all-American meat.

00:57:08.880 They've got bacon.

00:57:10.320 They've got hot dogs, but they have your traditional beef, your ground beef, your steaks, your

00:57:14.660 better-than-organic chicken.

00:57:16.560 It is all so good, and it's all from an American farmer ranch.

00:57:20.200 We've been relying on it for more than five years.

00:57:22.280 So thankful for Good Ranchers.

00:57:23.580 This is an America-loving, God-loving, family-owned company.

00:57:27.140 Makes your life so much easier.

00:57:28.560 You get that box of meat to your front door every month on dry ice.

00:57:31.620 One less thing to think about. 1.00

00:57:33.180 Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie. 0.67

00:57:34.720 That's goodranchers.com slash Allie.

00:57:37.100 okay y'all that's all we've got time for today we are going to have an incredible episode on

00:57:48.040 friday do not miss it and like i said we of course will continue to give analysis of the

00:57:53.620 lindsey clancy trial the conclusion of that um over the next few days we don't have a daily show

00:58:00.260 we have a three times a week show and the friday show is always um an incredible interview and so

00:58:05.520 we can't always be the first, but we try to be the most thorough and we try to give you the clearest

00:58:11.360 and the most biblical perspective that we possibly can. Sometimes it takes some time. So

00:58:16.520 we'll try to talk about that on Monday if we have the conclusion to the deliberation by then. And if

00:58:23.120 not, we'll talk about it on Wednesday. I will see you guys back here on Friday.

00:58:35.520 You

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - August 26, 2026

Ep 1388 ｜ I Was Wrong About Lindsay Clancy. Why I’ve Changed My Mind

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