Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep. 1412 ｜ The Dark Side of the “Pro-Life” Movement & the Shocking Truth About Abortion Politics ｜ Ginna Cross

00:00:00.000 So much of the pro-life movement and the pregnancy health movement has taken a staunch opposition to

00:00:06.500 giving the unborn legal protection. What people are starting to say is, eventually, I eventually

00:00:12.760 want equal protection, I eventually want abolition, but we're not there yet. Well, that means that you

00:00:17.080 don't actually consider the child in the womb at the same level that you would consider a newborn

00:00:22.080 or a toddler. The hearts of women have become so hardened. It's a terrible thing to live in a

00:00:27.840 society where women feel like their children are just disposable. We have told women that they can 1.00

00:00:33.000 do whatever they want and they are always a victim and that they are not morally culpable for the

00:00:39.320 actions that they take. Christians are reinforcing this. With our actions, we're saying the pre-born 0.97

00:00:44.420 child is not as valuable because we are not willing to take the same measures that we would

00:00:49.860 if it was a born child with the same things happening.

00:00:57.840 jenna thanks so much for taking the time to join us um you run a pro-life organization can you tell

00:01:12.680 us a little bit about it absolutely thanks for having me alliance family services is a network

00:01:18.560 of pregnancy clinics my husband and i have the joy of being co-leaders of that and our aim is to

00:01:25.340 have a network of pregnancy clinics across the country. And we want to provide a true alternative

00:01:30.500 to Planned Parenthood, big abortion. We want to have reproductive clinics that are God-honoring

00:01:35.660 and life-affirming, that provide pregnancy tests and ultrasounds certainly, but also prenatal care

00:01:40.880 to 20 weeks, well-woman exams, things that would be able to educate our nation about the value of

00:01:49.160 life in the womb. And as you know, of course, and care about and are working to do things about as

00:01:53.620 well, a lot of our hospital systems and OBs are actually radically pro-abortion. And so we want to

00:01:59.520 work towards having an alternative to that. So we work with just awesome people that are

00:02:05.380 passionate about the Lord and want to see this atrocity of abortion come to an end. And so we do

00:02:13.460 that one baby at a time in our clinics. And then we also seek to lend our voice to see that babies

00:02:20.920 in the womb can get justice and you are on the side of abortion abolition is that correct

00:02:27.080 and tell us what exactly that means so that means that we would hold to the reality that in order

00:02:35.240 for babies to be protected they need to be protected under the law it's it's good for us

00:02:40.120 to bring education and try to appeal to people to protect life but the law is actually what informs

00:02:48.280 consciences, inform society of what's good and not good. And so we would advocate for

00:02:54.560 what we call equal protection laws, giving the child in the womb that same protection

00:03:00.120 that you and I enjoy, that actually puts a terror in people that would want to hurt us,

00:03:06.700 that they decide they shouldn't do that because they know that there could be consequences to

00:03:12.180 that. We want that same protection for the preborn child. That means anyone who is seeking

00:03:17.580 to end the life of a pre-born child would also be informed by the law that they shouldn't do that.

00:03:24.560 I speak to a lot of pregnancy centers, and it really is an honor. That's the main

00:03:29.800 speaking engagement request that I say yes to. I get to go to their fundraisers and their galas

00:03:36.820 and just see all of the amazing work that you guys do, hear the testimonies. And one thing

00:03:42.520 that I've noticed, there's a lot of things that I've observed, but among some pregnancy centers,

00:03:47.420 there is an aversion to what you're talking about. Actually, I signed on to the statement

00:03:51.940 for equal protection for babies for the simple reason that you outlined is that if he or she

00:03:57.560 is just as much of a human as me, then why shouldn't he have just as much protection as I do

00:04:02.720 legally? And I had a pregnancy sinner that I was booked to speak for call me and say,

00:04:08.260 we just saw that you signed on to this. This is a problem. We need you. Basically, they were,

00:04:13.380 they were kind they're kind christian people genuine but they basically wanted to explain

00:04:18.260 yourself and i did i did explain myself and honestly when i said what you said and what i

00:04:23.780 just said they understood they were like okay but they did tell me like look like there's going to

00:04:28.580 be women who had abortions in the audience and we just really want to be careful about the things

00:04:33.220 you talk about and honestly i don't typically talk about the specific issue of equal protection

00:04:38.580 in my speeches. It's really more compelling people to care and to speak up and to be involved

00:04:43.260 and to donate and all of that. But it did, it struck me as odd. It struck me as strange that

00:04:49.360 these people who are ardent pro-lifers immediately felt like, okay, you need a talking to for

00:04:57.360 signing on to the statement for equal protection. And I just wonder as someone who runs pregnancy

00:05:02.900 centers and who is in this world, is that a sentiment that you see a lot that really we

00:05:08.260 should not be fighting for the equal protection of babies. Yes, unfortunately, it's a sentiment

00:05:13.660 that I see a lot. And it was a surprise to me. I mean, I definitely did not expect to be in a

00:05:19.080 position where I'm at odds with a lot of people that I consider friends and allies and really

00:05:26.200 admire a lot of the work that they do. But so much of the pro-life movement and the pregnancy

00:05:32.740 help movement has taken a staunch opposition to the idea of giving the unborn legal protection

00:05:41.680 and it's because this idea has has gone very far back that in pro-life laws and a lot of us

00:05:48.240 just really weren't aware that this is what was happening but in pro-life laws over decades

00:05:54.400 they would identify the pre-born as as human and should have equal rights and should be some

00:06:00.980 subject to homicide laws. And then immediately after that, there is an exception, except for

00:06:08.380 pregnant women, except for mothers, they would be totally exempt from this. So that idea that 0.89

00:06:16.260 we shouldn't have any consequences for the mother, we should only have consequences for the abortionist

00:06:24.160 goes fairly far back and until you know these more recent years where self-induced abortions

00:06:31.360 have become more and more common we women don't have to go into the abortion clinic in the way

00:06:37.120 that they used to they can just order pills do telehealth abortions and they become the abortionist

00:06:42.960 that seemed to make more logical sense it's like okay yes let's go after the abortion clinic

00:06:47.920 but now that we see that okay in most cases there isn't an outside abortionist now in the majority

00:06:57.320 of abortions it is the mother who's doing this it has become very confusing to see why why we

00:07:05.000 as pro-lifers who believe that abortion is murder who understand what a heinous thing it is and what

00:07:10.560 a horrible thing it is for mothers who do it how much grief guilt they they suffer why we wouldn't

00:07:17.760 want to give that child justice. And it is a compassion that has gone too far. It's a compassion

00:07:26.760 that is looking at the mom and the circumstances that she's in and saying, I don't want to add to

00:07:31.260 those circumstances by putting a potential consequence. But the flip side to that, the

00:07:36.300 reason why that's not actually compassion is if there was a penalty associated with her taking

00:07:41.500 that action, the most likely outcome is she wouldn't do it in the first place. And that's

00:07:45.720 what we want. The law is a deterrent. So what is kind of thrown at us who support these things is

00:07:51.240 that you just want to criminalize women. You just want to throw women in jail. These are some of the

00:07:55.700 kind of emotional appeals that are lobbed at us. And that just isn't accurate at all. I don't want

00:08:03.200 women to have abortions. I want those lives to be saved. I want them to become pregnant and realize 0.91

00:08:09.600 abortion isn't even an option on my mind. And so that I can come into a pregnancy center 1.00

00:08:15.300 and I can receive help. But yes, in the pregnancy help movement, it is broadly seen as an idea that

00:08:23.760 lacks compassion. And that does have to change if we believe that that child in the womb is

00:08:29.900 human life, then we need to recognize they should have that protection. And that's a good thing.

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00:09:53.860 goodranchers.com slash Allie. Get $50 off anything on their site when you use my link, goodranchers.com

00:09:59.820 slash Allie. Why do you think so many of those who are on the front lines against abortion,

00:10:11.020 who I believe are sincere and hating abortion, wanting to protect those baby lives, also wanting

00:10:17.180 to love their moms, which you do. I want that as well. Why do they fall into what I would call

00:10:24.460 toxic empathy what you have called basically like compassion run amok that's going exclusively only

00:10:31.600 in one direction and kind of ignoring justice for the person on the other side of the equation

00:10:35.700 what is like the thinking or the movement underneath that that has diluted a lot of

00:10:41.560 well-meaning pro-life or is into saying no I just I can't go that far in pursuing justice for this

00:10:49.600 baby? I think it comes down to not understanding what Scripture teaches about the law and the law

00:10:57.340 being good. It's a desire to extend mercy without recognizing that mercy comes when we

00:11:06.140 are repentant, that there is a justice that is tied with mercy that has to be there in order

00:11:14.460 for mercy to be extended. And I think that, well, I just want to read a couple of scriptures if

00:11:20.420 that's all right, because so many people I talk to think of the law as bad, as a negative,

00:11:27.340 and consequences as a negative. And we need to recognize that it's not. It's good. And that's

00:11:32.520 actually biblical to want laws that are just and they're good. So 1 Timothy 1.8 says that now we

00:11:40.860 know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully understanding this that the law is not laid down 0.88

00:11:46.060 for the just but for the lawless and disobedient for the ungodly and sinners for the unholy and

00:11:51.260 profane for those who strike their fathers and mothers for murderers the sexually immoral men 0.99

00:11:56.420 who practice homosexuality enslavers liars perjurers and whatever else is contrary to sound 0.99

00:12:01.780 doctrine in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed god with which i have been 0.96

00:12:06.760 entrusted and so it it talks about scripture talks about the law being good and that it's in

00:12:12.440 accordance with the gospel so if we want to be able to you know bring the gospel into these

00:12:17.180 situations there's this idea that we can just excuse sin and and coddle it and that that will

00:12:26.180 make people come to christ it's it really ties with the seeker sensitive movement you know it's

00:12:33.100 If we make the moms come in feel okay and we don't quote-unquote shame them, then maybe

00:12:41.800 they'll come to Christianity. 0.68

00:12:43.980 But what we're doing in that is actually keeping the gospel from them.

00:12:48.260 If we are treating them like a victim when actually they have moral agency, then we're

00:12:56.640 keeping them from actually what God means to restore them.

00:13:01.020 And I think that that's a lot of what's happened in the pro-life movement.

00:13:03.620 It's similar to what has happened in our churches, is that we're not bold anymore in calling out sin.

00:13:10.740 We don't want to do that because we don't want to hurt people's feelings.

00:13:14.340 And that seems like a lot of what's happening with this situation.

00:13:19.520 We have a saying that we repeat a lot, and it comes from Dr. Seuss.

00:13:23.780 Horton, here's a who.

00:13:24.820 A person is a person no matter how small.

00:13:26.720 pro-lifers have been saying for a very long time as they march for life that life starts at

00:13:33.240 conception and i see a lot of kind of dissonance when it comes to the conversation around well

00:13:39.880 then what should be legal and what should be the punishment for murdering that life and also when

00:13:44.720 it comes to ivf like you've got a lot of people who are against abortion they'll repeat those

00:13:49.120 mantras but then when you push them to say okay well those little lives are human lives in the

00:13:54.540 lab too and how we treat them matters how we discard them freeze them abandon them whatever

00:14:01.000 all of that matters too it feels like in the pro-life movement really like it's very almost

00:14:07.840 similar to how pro-choicers think of well abortion is only really bad at a certain time if the baby

00:14:15.400 looks more like a baby feels more like a baby is at a certain age most pro-lifers wouldn't say that

00:14:21.980 But when you get down to it, it does seem like that is kind of a prevalent mindset,

00:14:28.060 the pro-choice mindset of, well, actually, it is some time after conception that they're

00:14:33.740 really more valuable.

00:14:35.480 And I don't know why and I don't know when, but it's just some time.

00:14:39.420 And I'm like, well, that's as fantastical as the pro-choicers who think that it should

00:14:43.340 be viability or when the baby comes out of the womb or something like that.

00:14:47.420 There's not a lot of daylight between those two positions, right?

00:14:50.680 That's right.

00:14:51.420 And what we're seeing now to take that further is that people are also are starting to say, well, OK, maybe eventually, because as as this discussion about equal protection continues forward, now more and more people who've been opposing it are starting to realize, hey, Christians are are seeing the biblical basis for this, seeing the logical basis for this.

00:15:15.380 And so what people are starting to say is, well, eventually, I eventually want equal protection.

00:15:22.260 I eventually want abolition, but we're not there yet.

00:15:24.480 The time is not now.

00:15:25.440 And that speaks to exactly what you're saying.

00:15:27.620 Well, that means that you don't actually consider the child in the womb at the same level that you would consider a newborn or a toddler.

00:15:34.440 Because if thousands of toddlers were being slaughtered every day by their mothers, predominantly,

00:15:42.620 you would not feel, well, let's take another 10 years and educate the culture before we

00:15:47.280 try to legally stop it.

00:15:48.700 No one would say that.

00:15:49.820 No one would think that.

00:15:50.780 We would say this is a horrific thing that's happening.

00:15:52.940 And we as Christians are the ones that need to say, no more, this needs to end.

00:15:58.320 But the idea that we're okay to kind of just, let's keep letting it play out.

00:16:03.640 Let's keep trying the same strategies we've been utilizing over the last decades, even though we're seeing abortion numbers only increase and hearts become even harder, you know, harder and harder.

00:16:15.560 And that's that's the reality. And Ecclesiastes talks about this saying, you know, because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, hearts of man are fully set to do evil.

00:16:25.080 and that's what we see that's what we have told women that they can do this legally they can do

00:16:31.160 this with no consequence and the result of telling that to women with our laws over decades is that

00:16:39.400 the hearts of women have become so hardened and it's a terrible thing it's a terrible thing to

00:16:45.800 live in a society where women feel like their children are just disposable i mean and we all

00:16:51.880 see have seen the horrific you know lindsey clancy case and realized how can this be well this is a 0.94

00:16:57.720 society where we have told women that they can do whatever they want and they are always a victim 0.70

00:17:04.200 and that they are not morally culpable for the actions that they take but christians are

00:17:09.640 reinforcing this by saying it's not that big of a deal by by with our actions we're saying

00:17:15.400 the preborn child is not as valuable because we are not willing to take the same measures that

00:17:22.660 we would if it was a born child with the same things happening. To play devil's advocate and

00:17:29.520 represent what some people might be thinking. But Jenna, Roe v. Wade was overturned, not because of

00:17:36.560 an abolitionist law, but because of a, I think it was 24 week ban on abortion in the state of

00:17:44.480 mississippi and yeah of course that's not as early as really i don't think any pro-lifer would say

00:17:50.360 that they want when it comes to protecting babies inside the womb but it was strategic it was

00:17:54.980 pragmatic it was incremental and then legislators were able to pass that it was able to make its

00:18:02.100 way up our court system up to the supreme court and it was that incremental law that then allowed

00:18:08.560 for the dobbs decision that overturned roe v wade that then gave states the freedom to have

00:18:13.300 more restrictive laws when it came to abortion. And even if they're not perfect, and even if

00:18:18.520 the abortion pill has allowed for the abortion numbers to go up in so many ways, did that not

00:18:25.100 advance the cause of life, those incremental laws that then ended up allowing for a lot of

00:18:33.160 change in pro-life states? Sure. So I praise God for the overturn of Roe, certainly. And so I think

00:18:40.960 that you know certainly a case can could be made for that and I understand where people are coming

00:18:47.100 from in that what I would say in response is we could have also been putting forward bills of

00:18:53.780 equal protection that could have advanced to the supreme court also and ended up overturning that

00:18:59.140 and would that have educated society in such a way that then the supreme court actually made a

00:19:05.380 decision to recognize the pre-born child in the womb rather than turning it back to the states to

00:19:10.060 actually give the preborn child personhood that they should have had to actually just end abortion

00:19:16.940 right there once and for all. That could have been a different outcome had we been putting this

00:19:23.440 forward over a longer period of time and just faithfully as Christians saying, no, we have to 0.76

00:19:28.140 give the preborn child equal justice, not 24 weeks, not 12 weeks, not six weeks. We say to society

00:19:35.440 what is actually right. No murder. No murder is right, and that's the law that we want. And

00:19:40.340 because we have so many Christians in our nation, if we were all pushing for that, we would have

00:19:45.720 those bills passed. That's the crazy part about all of this, is that pro-life advocates who are

00:19:51.600 against equal protection will say, you can't get those bills passed. It's like, well, we are

00:19:56.320 advancing them, and we have had many opportunities and been very close. What has stopped them in

00:20:02.320 those states has actually been pro-life organizations coming in and telling conservative

00:20:07.120 legislators not to pass it. So that's the really hard reality of why those bills haven't passed.

00:20:15.380 And so you can't look at it and say, okay, but this was passed and this did this bit of good.

00:20:22.520 But if we could have had an equal protection bill, how many more lives would have been saved

00:20:26.680 you know to this point it's very it's impossible to measure that but what we can do going forward

00:20:34.280 is say we can and should require that red states pass equal protection because if in a red state

00:20:43.240 you could get a six-week ban or you could get a 12-week if it's if you can get one of those you

00:20:48.600 could get an equal protection bill passed if christians pressured their legislators to pass

00:20:54.280 that and that said that's the only thing we're going to pass so there isn't this incremental

00:20:59.240 step that we could take or at least you know i want to hear that argument for what state could

00:21:05.240 you get a six-week ban what red state that you couldn't get an equal protection bill if you

00:21:09.160 actually just pressed for it you can't get an incremental bill passed in illinois or in

00:21:14.280 california you can't get a 12-week or a six-week nothing that moves the needle away from abortion

00:21:20.040 is going to pass in those states anyway.

00:21:21.920 So you might as well be putting

00:21:23.500 the equal protection bill forward

00:21:25.580 to educate your state and your legislators.

00:21:28.900 If you're not going to get a bill passed,

00:21:30.520 you might as well put one forward

00:21:32.200 that's at least going to educate.

00:21:33.600 So that would be how I'd respond to that

00:21:37.860 is those incremental steps are unnecessary.

00:21:40.620 If we've got a red state, 0.94

00:21:41.600 we can pass equal protection if Christians 0.60

00:21:43.240 and the pro-life movement gets on board with that.

00:21:50.040 You know, a few years ago, it felt like we had defeated Marxism in America or the new iteration

00:21:56.320 of socialism with some of the prominent politicians. But now as we are looking at this

00:22:02.480 election season, we see that's clearly not true. We've got socialist candidates that are rising

00:22:07.560 in popularity, which means we still have a lot of work to do because the ideology of Marxism

00:22:13.440 attacks the very foundation on which our freedoms are built. That's why I'm so thankful for those

00:22:18.460 who are on the front lines of defending those constitutional freedoms, like Alliance Defending

00:22:22.540 Freedom. They are always pushing back against these dark ideologies by protecting our First

00:22:28.460 Amendment right to freedom of religion, to freedom of speech. They're protecting

00:22:33.580 biological reality, the spaces of women and girls, and they are racking up wins for all of these

00:22:41.960 things, not just here in America, but around the world. It seems like they are constantly going to

00:22:46.540 the Supreme Court fighting on behalf of our freedoms, not only ours, but our children's

00:22:51.320 and our grandchildren's. Stand for freedom with them today by giving them a gift. It'll be matched

00:22:56.260 by a special grant while funds last. Go to joinadf.com slash Allie. Make your gift today.

00:23:01.920 joinadf.com slash Allie. And what about people who say, okay, well, the legislators just aren't

00:23:13.560 going to do it and maybe they're wrong for not doing it but they're not going to get on board

00:23:17.640 so if we only push for this then we're not going to get any pro-life law like let's take the state

00:23:23.640 of florida it used to be 24 weeks now it's six weeks maybe the argument would have been i don't

00:23:29.900 actually know this is just a hypothetical while legislators in the state of florida actually would

00:23:33.960 not have signed on to that right maybe ron de santis would have maybe he wouldn't have said

00:23:38.360 you know no zero weeks total abolition the pro-lifers the incrementalists in that state

00:23:44.440 are like look we got a huge win stop complaining about it and they see i think both the abolitionists

00:23:51.340 and the incrementalists see each other as trying to oppose the efforts of the other side and they

00:23:59.520 would say you are actually threatening the abolitionist side is threatening our progress

00:24:04.420 because we're trying to strategically get it lower and lower and lower.

00:24:08.480 But when the abolitionist crazies come out there, 0.81

00:24:11.160 they're just making us all seem insane. 0.96

00:24:13.820 And then nothing gets passed because of them.

00:24:16.660 What do you say?

00:24:17.340 Because I know you've probably heard those kinds of accusations.

00:24:19.700 What would your response be?

00:24:21.580 Yes, well, it's very rare to see abolitionists

00:24:24.460 actually opposing pro-life legislation.

00:24:26.480 That's not something that I commonly see.

00:24:30.100 I certainly wouldn't oppose someone's efforts,

00:24:32.580 good faith efforts to advance pro-life protections. In Florida, the example I think is an interesting

00:24:39.480 one. But to me, it's just inaccurate that legislators wouldn't pass an equal protection

00:24:45.400 bill. Legislators will pass what the people that support them tell them to pass. And so because

00:24:51.460 the pro-life organizations have allowed them to pass lesser bills, that's what they're going to

00:24:59.180 do they're always going to take the path of least resistance but they certainly would these

00:25:04.320 legislators are running on a pro-life platform they say they believe that the life in the womb

00:25:08.280 is human and so therefore we should be saying if you believe that you need to give them equal

00:25:14.080 protection that's all we accept that's being the prophetic voice of truth for the the unborn child

00:25:20.700 which is the most vulnerable person in our in our country that that the lord commands us to speak up

00:25:27.480 for the one that can't speak up for themselves, to rescue them.

00:25:30.560 So we should be putting that pressure, applying that pressure heavily.

00:25:34.180 The major pro-life organizations that fund these legislators,

00:25:39.060 they should be saying, this is all that we will accept.

00:25:42.460 And once they do, then those legislators will pass it.

00:25:45.860 Because we, I mean, we know this is true,

00:25:47.720 because many states have had many legislators ready to do it,

00:25:51.380 who have then been persuaded to change course

00:25:54.220 because of pro-life organizations

00:25:55.980 persuading them to change course.

00:25:57.800 So it's not accurate to say

00:25:59.200 that legislators wouldn't pass it.

00:26:01.520 They certainly would.

00:26:03.040 And so in Florida,

00:26:05.180 it's, you know, that law was passed.

00:26:07.760 That's good in some ways.

00:26:09.060 In other ways, it kind of lulls people to sleep.

00:26:12.500 People that fought for that

00:26:13.380 is hard to get a bill passed.

00:26:14.520 You put a lot of effort in.

00:26:15.620 So once you finally do,

00:26:17.360 you know, it kind of feels like,

00:26:18.920 great, we got the victory.

00:26:20.180 Now we're going to sit back and coast.

00:26:23.080 We did that.

00:26:23.800 We did it.

00:26:24.220 You know, and that's it. It puts people into this feeling of victory when actually it's not a victory because the abortion numbers continue to rise in Florida.

00:26:33.600 People just are rushing to do it faster, sooner. And they're they're getting, you know, ordering abortion pills and realizing that they can do that just as easily.

00:26:42.580 So it's recognizing, okay, the reason why we are seeing abortion numbers continue to go up is because of the hardening that's happening. 0.65

00:26:54.440 And the hardening of hearts that is happening is happening because we have educated women to believe that they can murder their children with no consequence.

00:27:01.700 Mm-hmm. Now, some of what you're saying, my audience has never heard before and might be 0.71

00:27:06.460 confused when you're saying that pro-life organizations are trying to stop the efforts

00:27:12.240 of equal protection and abolitionist bills that would totally outlaw abortion. What are you

00:27:18.780 talking about? Yes. So the first time I was exposed to this and really when I really started

00:27:24.740 to look at these arguments was in 2022, the same year that Dobbs was overturned, there was a law

00:27:31.320 of equal protection in Louisiana that had the votes to pass. It had the support to pass. It

00:27:36.340 passed out of committee, seven to two, overwhelming support, a veto-proof majority. And it was

00:27:42.540 exciting. I mean, I was just kind of becoming aware of equal protection. And so then to see

00:27:47.480 there's actually going to be a state that protects pre-born children. And what happened was right 1.00

00:27:52.480 before it went for a vote in the legislature, pro-life organizations, over 70 organizations

00:27:58.660 um sends well and the erlc um and these major organizations send a letter saying this is not

00:28:04.560 pro-life and we never want this because there are consequences going for women this is not pro-life

00:28:10.580 don't pass it and so wait the erlc said to louisiana yes don't pass this and people don't

00:28:20.060 know the ethics and religious liberty council part of the southern baptist convention or has

00:28:24.960 been used to be led by russell moore maybe it was in 2022 i don't know if it was used to be not

00:28:30.420 anymore so they actually stepped in proactively they could have just said nothing even if they

00:28:36.060 didn't just if they didn't agree with it but they stepped in and said no they said this is not pro 1.00

00:28:41.640 life and the reason was because this would punish a woman who knowingly and purposely paid someone

00:28:47.940 to kill her child right did they have any other justification for for that for this not being

00:28:54.840 pro-life? No, the letter, which was on National Right to Life letterhead, all the National Right 0.91

00:29:00.600 to Life organizations, I believe, or most of them signed it as well, basically just stated this as

00:29:06.700 this is the known pro-life position. This is what we have always stood for, that there's never any

00:29:13.020 consequence for the woman. And so this was really the first that I was aware that I had totally

00:29:21.560 different goals with the movement that I loved and still love and a part of. And so it was a

00:29:30.520 big eye-opener to see, well, how can we all say that we're wanting to end abortion? Obviously,

00:29:36.820 we're not, because abortion is never going to be ended while giving mothers a total exemption. 0.58

00:29:42.740 That's just never going to happen. We'll never stop abortion without that. And so that was when

00:29:48.340 I became aware of abolitionists and this push for equal protection people saying, of course we need

00:29:57.120 to remove the exemption. Now in equal protection bills, a mother is not named at all. So it's not

00:30:02.580 targeting women or mothers or anything like that that you might hear. It simply says that it is

00:30:08.580 illegal for anyone to murder a pre-born child. And that is, it's very straightforward. So that

00:30:14.980 actually allows if there's a predator that's pressuring or family members pressuring or husband

00:30:21.300 when something is legal for a woman to do her husband can pressure her to do it with no

00:30:26.560 consequence because it's legal for her to do it once it's illegal to do then now you can actually

00:30:31.760 go after the person that is that is pressuring so it's actually you know it's helping with those

00:30:37.420 situations of coercion and things like that um so rather than making those situations worse

00:30:42.680 it's actually helping with that so since that time 2022 four years ago we should have had

00:30:48.540 the first equal protection bill and of course it's always dominoes after that so the first state that

00:30:53.300 will pass it others will follow suit once that first state goes so it's tragic to me all the

00:30:59.020 lives that have been lost since that time because of the pro-life organizations intervening but

00:31:04.760 since that time that pattern has repeated itself over and over every single year there's equal

00:31:09.340 protection bills every single year there's pro-life organizations not just signing letters

00:31:13.780 but showing up to testify against equal protection legislation i testified on the opposite side of an

00:31:20.560 equal protection bill in south dakota as another pregnancy center director last year that was awful

00:31:25.840 i hate it um but will be again this next year it sounds like there's going to be um equal protection

00:31:31.620 bill in texas and i know there's some texas pregnancy centers that are planning to testify

00:31:36.700 against that and um so more and more we're seeing this and that is it's very disheartening uh and

00:31:44.580 i we as christians need to be you know pushing back against that and speaking against that

00:31:49.700 because i'm i don't think that every pregnancy center director needs to be advocating you know

00:31:55.340 um giving testimony for equal protection bills or anything like that if people

00:31:59.320 don't feel that that's that's their calling not something that they want to step into

00:32:03.560 I am totally okay with that. What I'm not okay with is the people who are saying that they're

00:32:12.880 fighting for the pre-born, but they're actually fighting against justice. They're actually showing

00:32:16.640 up and opposing justice for pre-born children. That is the one that's really, really difficult,

00:32:22.680 and it's happening more and more. It feels like the tensions are really escalating,

00:32:27.800 which is quite heartbreaking totally and they're you know well what you said that national right

00:32:34.720 to life right with the erlc said this has been the position women should be exempt from punishment

00:32:41.040 when it comes to the murder of their babies they're not even coming coming at it from 0.99

00:32:46.640 mainly a strategic standpoint it's an ideological one like it's a belief system one that women are

00:32:52.640 always the second victims of abortion no matter what no matter how much she knows no matter how

00:32:59.040 much she chooses it no matter how much of her own volition she is making this choice to murder her

00:33:04.600 baby somehow she is always seen as the second as the second victim next sponsor is crowd health

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00:34:44.280 power back. This is how we win. Join crowdhealth.com code Allie. It's interesting because at a lot of

00:34:55.380 these pregnancy centers where I travel, I've heard these directors actually say, well, women are

00:35:02.620 becoming in our, in our experience, our day-to-day lives or our day-to-day experience with these

00:35:08.120 woman more calloused and more resolute and more walking in i just want the pregnancy confirmation

00:35:15.320 to see how far along i am i am leaving and going to get an abortion whereas they felt before like

00:35:21.480 there was some softening and they felt like it was more likely that they would be able to show

00:35:27.520 that beating heart and that the woman would feel a softening and a love for her child not that it's

00:35:32.660 impossible now but there is a hardness of heart that has increased that to me dispels this myth

00:35:38.600 that women are just these they just don't know they're completely ignorant to it and they're

00:35:44.060 accidentally falling into an abortion that's just not the case i don't think it's ever been the case

00:35:49.580 but it certainly doesn't seem to be the case now and i just wonder when these pro-lifers who do

00:35:55.860 hold the value that all life matters are going to wake up to that, that justice, God's justice,

00:36:02.780 means no partiality toward the woman who has purposely taken the life of her child.

00:36:08.620 That's right. Yes. I think that the second victim narrative has become quite ingrained. And when you

00:36:17.260 have really taken on that statement, well, women are second victims of abortion,

00:36:22.700 of course we immediately think well a victim is not responsible and so our minds go to that

00:36:29.540 immediately but that's the that is the problem with calling her a second victim because in most

00:36:35.120 cases she still had agency she may have been deceived by someone she just pressured even

00:36:42.940 to do something but she still ultimately had the ability to say I'm going to do this take this

00:36:49.900 action or I'm not going to take this action. And so we can have compassion for a woman in a tough

00:36:55.060 circumstance that has had a bunch of voices in her ear telling her this is what she can do. And I

00:37:00.120 think we should. We should have empathy for her. But we shouldn't take that so far that we say,

00:37:06.560 well, because she was persuaded, therefore, she is a victim of that abortion instead of the person

00:37:15.480 that actually decided, walked into the abortion clinic and put down the money and said,

00:37:19.900 abort my child or ordered the pills and and took it victim assigning victimhood to someone

00:37:25.180 is is not actually a good thing we certainly you know there are victim real victims and

00:37:30.900 we want to help them we have compassion for them and that circumstance but once you have

00:37:35.960 done that you've you've taken away their dignity in a sense they're they're choosing as a human

00:37:42.640 being and you're you're preventing them from seeing what they did which is actually choosing

00:37:48.780 to murder their child. And I think that that is what is so dangerous about this notion is we are

00:37:57.020 we're basically putting again, like I said, putting a stumbling block in front of women 0.91

00:38:01.640 from repenting to not to not recognize the egregiousness of what they've done. But we 0.67

00:38:06.840 almost want to just build this bubble around them. And it's this weird feminist idea where 1.00

00:38:12.540 women are so powerful and can do anything, but like they also are completely dumb and 1.00

00:38:16.900 and have no autonomy over their decisions and both of those don't work um and so we we need 1.00

00:38:24.820 to be able to just say in these things that that woman chose and yes she is in difficult

00:38:29.380 circumstances but we wouldn't say the same thing of a mother with a with a born child in a tough

00:38:34.100 situation you know partner leaves her she's financially in a bad position we wouldn't kind

00:38:38.900 of be like well yeah it's kind of understandable that she killed her newborn we wouldn't do that

00:38:44.660 So we shouldn't do that.

00:38:46.540 And the law doesn't do that.

00:38:47.500 The law doesn't do that, which is very helpful.

00:38:49.620 Yeah, exactly.

00:38:50.880 But we do just fall into this mentality of, well, if I can't see the baby, if the baby isn't outside of the womb, then it's a whole different set of circumstances.

00:38:59.460 And I'm like, well, welcome to being pro-choice.

00:39:01.340 Not welcome, but like that's the pro-choice mentality too.

00:39:05.120 You just call yourself pro-life.

00:39:08.240 I am curious if you think it's been the compromise of pro-lifers that has shifted the over-10

00:39:13.820 window to where it is, to where now we have such a brazen abortion lobby.

00:39:18.920 And I have for years, but it seems especially over the past few years, all nine months,

00:39:24.400 no parental consent for any reason whatsoever, mental health, emotional health, physical

00:39:30.520 health, whatever it is.

00:39:32.160 We have Democrats out there saying, I trust moms and their doctors, which is code for

00:39:37.120 all nine months for any reason has it been democrats or progressives pushing and pushing

00:39:43.580 and pushing so that pro-lifers feel like okay well i gotta find somewhere in the middle to try

00:39:49.000 to like reel it back a little bit or has it been that we have given up so much ground that that

00:39:55.100 has actually allowed the left to shift the over 10 window even more it's like okay well 24 weeks

00:40:01.440 okay well you know viability whatever and then they're just gonna keep they're just gonna keep

00:40:07.100 going i don't know it could be a chicken or the egg type thing but i think you're right that it's

00:40:11.980 not going in the right direction we're moving more and more towards radicalism when it comes to

00:40:17.420 abortion we are and i agree with you that it's christians have given up that ground most

00:40:23.740 definitely we we do not fight the way that the left fights we are constantly on the defensive

00:40:29.740 trying to persuade them that we are not radical and what that means is we seed biblical ground

00:40:36.300 constantly and we compromise. Whereas the left, they will just say their demonic agenda and

00:40:44.060 they'll say it boldly and people will shriek at it for a while, but they just keep saying it,

00:40:48.600 keep saying it, keep pressing. And all of a sudden, before you know it, the whole nation

00:40:53.900 has gone that way. And it's been a small amount of the population that's done that.

00:40:58.480 Christians, we don't do that, but we should. We need to hold the line. We need to look at

00:41:02.860 what the Word of God says. And we need to hold that line and not flinch and not compromise and

00:41:09.320 not survey the Christian audience around us to see, is this a palatable opinion? We actually

00:41:15.460 need to just care about the opinion of the Word of God. And we need to recognize that the Word of

00:41:22.100 God doesn't give us leeway to say, I'm an eventual abolitionist. Someday down the road when culture

00:41:28.380 ready, then I will support abolition for pre-born children. We don't have the ability, the leeway 0.98

00:41:35.280 to do that. We are just supposed to speak up for the vulnerable and to fight for justice. And if

00:41:40.760 we did that, it would shift the Overton towards biblical truth. We still have enough Christians 1.00

00:41:47.720 in this nation that we could do that and we could shift it dramatically. But it's going to require 1.00

00:41:53.960 a lot of courage it's going to require people in these pro-life organizations to stand up and say

00:41:59.880 no matter what it costs me I'm going to stand for equal protection for the pre-born I'm going

00:42:05.940 to work for these laws I recognize that what we've been saying and doing has been injustice

00:42:12.580 and it's allowed children to be dehumanized and and I'm done with that I'm not going to do that

00:42:18.440 anymore. And that is happening. There is an arising of people in the pregnancy help space

00:42:25.800 that are seeing this and are speaking up, using their voices. But we need, I mean, we need board

00:42:31.360 members to speak up. We need, you know, we need volunteers. We need donors to call their pregnancy

00:42:38.120 centers and ask them, no, don't be, don't be rude. Don't be like hostile. Please be, be gracious.

00:42:47.800 Just seek to understand, seek to have conversations, and those things will build up.

00:42:55.720 You know, there's a group of us that are working to start a coalition for workers in the pregnancy

00:43:00.760 help space that are for equal protection.

00:43:03.120 This is going to continue to be a conversation.

00:43:05.720 And yes, I hate that it's contentious.

00:43:07.340 A lot of people will say, you know, oh, this is, it's not good for unity.

00:43:11.720 And yes, I want us to be unified, but I want us to be unified around justice for the pre-born.

00:43:18.360 What we say that we believe that that abortion is murder, we need to be unified around that.

00:43:23.620 And that is where we'll be able to find that unity again.

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00:44:42.380 and with respect to that pregnancy center i was referring to earlier that you know initially

00:44:52.240 called me and was like oh why'd you sign on to the statement of equal protection they did still

00:44:58.080 have me and they were very they were super kind super hospitable but honestly i think a lot of

00:45:04.820 them and i you know i i look back and i was kind of i was a little annoyed you know i was a little

00:45:10.640 annoyed about it because it felt like i was being called into the principal's office for doing

00:45:14.740 something that is very pro-life yes but you know i look back and i thank the lord because i really

00:45:20.120 did have the opportunity in that moment just to lay it out and i think that that actually like

00:45:25.720 them hearing certainly not me but just what what the word of god has to say about justice and

00:45:30.840 unequal weights and measures and like if the logic of pro-life is this then this um I think

00:45:37.520 it actually like affected them and then they had me come speak and everything and so sometimes we

00:45:43.880 just have to even if you know on this side we feel like okay it's so obvious because once you

00:45:49.960 see it you can't unsee it but before you see it it's true you can't and so we also have to be

00:45:56.160 no because you said 2022 is when you started thinking about it it's just been in the past

00:46:00.180 few years for me that i've really started thinking about it i think the overturning of roe made a lot

00:46:04.720 of people start thinking about what are the possibilities here because for a long time it

00:46:08.320 didn't seem possible at all what are the possibilities we have to be really gracious

00:46:12.480 with the legislators not on not you know um compromising but gracious and also with other

00:46:21.260 people especially those who genuinely want to stand into abortion there's you know there's a

00:46:26.080 lot of people i would say even more toward the pro-choice camp but in the christian world who

00:46:31.540 call themselves pro all life and a lot of them are in circles that you know call themselves pro-life

00:46:37.580 but what they really mean is like we don't want there to be any law necessarily banning abortion 0.70

00:46:42.880 or we're not worried about that what we're worried is about is making sure that all these moms are

00:46:47.580 taking care of and their needs are met let's make abortion unthinkable not necessarily illegal

00:46:52.920 and they present this logical fallacy which is a false choice and i see this a lot that okay either

00:46:58.920 you're loving the moms or you're advocating that there be justice for the baby and what you're

00:47:05.020 representing as you're running all of these pregnancy clinics and you're advocating for

00:47:08.740 these laws is that no we have to do both it's not one or the other it should never be one or the

00:47:13.560 other it has to be both so tell tell us what that looks like for those of us who are pro-lifers we

00:47:18.960 don't run pregnancy clinics, but we feel that tension. We want to show mercy and love to these

00:47:24.900 women and these families without being compromising when it comes to justice for the baby.

00:47:30.780 Yeah. So how it would look in our clinics is very similar to likely what it would look like

00:47:35.520 in many of the pregnancy clinics across the country. We want to reach that abortion-determined 0.94

00:47:40.680 mom. We try to market in such a way that she comes to us first for care and services. And 0.98

00:47:48.640 we're going to love her. We're going to appeal to her. We're going to find out what's going on

00:47:53.840 in her life. We're going to seek to share the gospel with her. We're going to let her know we

00:47:57.660 have tons of resources available. We have caseworkers on our staff that will talk with

00:48:03.420 them about practical needs that they have. We're doing everything that we can in that appointment

00:48:08.600 to appeal to her to choose life. And so you're exactly right. We need to have both. We need to

00:48:16.640 be seeking to give justice to the preborn while we are working to help these moms. But we do that 1.00

00:48:24.620 as a church so well. Like the network of pregnancy centers that we have in America is phenomenal,

00:48:31.220 that we have this many believers that want to help these women and families and want to see

00:48:36.900 lives saved from abortion is incredible. So we have the support and infrastructure that when we

00:48:43.340 when we make abortion truly illegal because many states will say abortion is illegal but nothing

00:48:49.020 is illegal when there's no penalty for it it's like tell your child you can't do this and they're

00:48:54.340 like what will happen absolutely nothing your child's like that that's not a rule actually

00:48:58.600 you know so we can't say that something is illegal when there's no consequence for it so there's

00:49:04.280 nowhere in this country that abortion is actually illegal when we make abortion illegal we are ready

00:49:09.580 the church is ready all of our clinics are ready to see these moms come in who now abortion isn't 0.92

00:49:16.380 even on their mind like the the catchy line we want to make abortion unthinkable how do you make 0.99

00:49:21.620 it unthinkable you make it illegal that's how you do it because moms with newborns aren't coming in

00:49:26.140 in desperate situations thinking about maybe they'll kill their newborn they're not it's

00:49:29.960 unthinkable because it's illegal and so once we make abortion illegal then we are able to just

00:49:36.620 pour out help and support on them. We already have that support structure in place. And as pregnancy

00:49:42.660 centers, we're servants of the local church. That's why we exist. We are really frontline

00:49:47.080 mission fields that are there to reach people that maybe wouldn't go into a church, but the

00:49:52.000 goal is to help them and get them into the life of the church, see their life transformed by the

00:49:57.560 power of Christ, and see their generations in their family change. That's what we want to do,

00:50:02.940 and it's what we are privileged to do.

00:50:06.220 Yeah, I've seen a positive change too

00:50:09.400 in pro-lifers, some rhetoric from pro-life organizations

00:50:13.160 and some pregnancy centers

00:50:14.760 who will use terms like abolish abortion

00:50:17.320 and I'm like, I don't know if that person's

00:50:19.360 really an abolitionist, but,

00:50:21.640 and maybe you feel differently, I'm like, okay,

00:50:23.940 but the fact that people in the pro-life movement

00:50:26.740 now feel a little bit of pressure

00:50:28.900 to be able to say that

00:50:31.020 and to say that i you know no i do believe in abolishing abortion i do think that that means

00:50:37.820 that the abolitionist movements and even just the logic behind it which you really can't argue with

00:50:43.140 has advanced which is a good thing and you know i've seen a lot of these pregnancy centers

00:50:49.240 they have tried really hard to be conciliatory with the left with pro-choicers or you know

00:50:55.520 have tried to kind of like meet in the middle while still accomplishing their mission they've

00:51:00.420 realize they're still going to get attacked they're still going to get slandered and libeled

00:51:03.700 they're still going to get firebombed because it's never enough and you would speak better to

00:51:08.800 this than me but like one thing i think that a lot of pregnancy centers and pro-lifers need to

00:51:13.220 realize you might not be in this because you wanted to be political i get that you might not

00:51:17.940 be in this because you're a thick-skinned person you're just a super compassionate person who felt

00:51:21.740 passionate about this you have to get thicker skin and it is political though you don't have

00:51:26.540 to be a politician not saying that but you have to get thicker skin and it is political and you

00:51:32.500 need to wake up to the political reality and that people are going to hate you because everyone who

00:51:37.460 desires to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted um and so I don't know that would be

00:51:42.900 like my advice and all that I see at pregnancy centers but from your perspective as someone who

00:51:47.560 helps run these pregnancy centers you're speaking to pregnancy center directors out there who are

00:51:51.520 like oh no it's scary like how did they become more courageous and bolder when it comes to this

00:51:58.620 I think that it's just determining I will I will stand for this because this is this is right

00:52:04.940 make that determination in your in your heart there's kind of this and you mentioned it now

00:52:10.180 there's kind of now this move happening to start adopting the language of abolition equal protection

00:52:15.560 people saying, I'm for equal protection, I just don't want these laws, and I don't want there to

00:52:21.920 be consequences. Okay, well, then you're not for equal protection, because equal means equal.

00:52:27.080 Equal means that those children have the same protections that I have, and one of the things

00:52:31.840 I have is legal protection. So in order for it to actually be equal protection, then pre-born

00:52:38.140 children need to have that legal protection as well. So recognizing the word games that are

00:52:44.020 occurring right now. And it's very similar to kind of the third way type thing that happened

00:52:51.940 in the church. It's like, well, I'm not left or right. I'm third way. It's like, no, that doesn't

00:52:57.600 actually work. You do actually need to take a stance on this. Are you for equal protection for

00:53:02.220 the pre-born child or not? You can't say maybe someday down the road, actually, what you're

00:53:06.780 saying then is that children right now don't deserve that equal justice and you're not willing

00:53:10.400 to fight for right now. So I think that a great first step, I mean, when my husband and I became

00:53:15.960 convicted about this position, the first thing we did was went to our board. And we had lots of

00:53:19.920 people for equal protection say, your board's going to fire you. And we thought, well, that's

00:53:26.240 very possible, but we still have to share what we've come to believe. And so we went to them

00:53:32.740 and talked about equal protection. And it was amazing. Our board is awesome. And they

00:53:38.080 looked at everything and said, yeah, we believe that this is right and we're going to take a

00:53:42.260 stand. And so I think that a great first step is just to come to a decision point about this

00:53:49.500 yourself. Study the word of God, study the arguments. And if you come to the position

00:53:55.920 that this is right, then start talking to the people in your organization and in your sphere

00:54:01.600 who you can also seek to persuade on this

00:54:06.800 and then just see what opportunities you get.

00:54:08.980 I mean, we just never thought as an organization

00:54:11.020 that we would be prominently

00:54:12.980 the pregnancy help organization

00:54:14.860 that's speaking for abolition.

00:54:16.240 It's just not ever what we thought we would be doing,

00:54:19.860 but we're happy to do it

00:54:23.540 as long as the Lord sees fit to call us into that space.

00:54:27.620 So you just don't know what opportunities

00:54:29.180 will present themselves

00:54:30.460 as you just start taking steps of faith, saying, this is actually our fight. This is our sphere.

00:54:36.060 Yes, who better? We are the ones that are saying we're going to fight against abortion and we're

00:54:41.500 going to fight for life. So who better to be speaking for justice for those very same babies

00:54:46.600 that we're advocating for in the womb that we'd be advocating for them legally as well.

00:54:55.780 We've got some really good news from Preborn. They have been able, through the Grace

00:55:00.400 of God and the persistence of the people who work at these pre-born pregnancy clinics

00:55:04.540 save over 50,000 babies.

00:55:07.200 And they have seen more than 5,100 commitments to Christ through their ministry.

00:55:13.220 How is that happening?

00:55:14.460 This is a personal message from Dan Steiner, the president of pre-born.

00:55:17.780 He says, because of you, we can invite mothers considering abortion into a pre-born network

00:55:21.400 clinic to meet their baby.

00:55:23.020 And when she has that close encounter of the best kind in her womb, so she sees that baby

00:55:27.800 on the sonogram, she's 80% more likely to choose life. And every time you donate to pre-born,

00:55:34.080 whether it's $2, whether it covers the whole cost of that ultrasound session, $28, whether you can

00:55:39.800 donate thousands of dollars and you can cover tons of those sonograms, you are helping. You are

00:55:47.640 helping these women choose life. You are helping them have an encounter that could lead them to

00:55:52.340 Christ, when someone shares the gospel with them, put your money where your heart is. Invest in the

00:55:58.300 lives of these babies and their moms and dads. Again, $28 covers the cost of a life-saving

00:56:02.980 ultrasound. Go to preborn.com slash Allie to make your donation today. That's preborn.com slash Allie. 0.99

00:56:14.760 I know that you have some like bookmarks in your Bible that you have with you. Are there

00:56:19.220 any more scriptures, like just as we wrap this up, that you remind yourself of or that you like

00:56:24.840 to remind others of, especially when we're talking about this fight? Yeah, the other one that I didn't

00:56:31.460 read, but it's actually Romans 13. And I think we forget that what the role of the state actually

00:56:40.360 is. Romans 13 says that rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear

00:56:45.540 of the one who is in authority then do what is good and you will receive his approval for he is

00:56:50.480 god's servant for your good but if you do wrong be afraid for he does not bear the sword in vain

00:56:56.880 for he is the servant of god an avenger who carries out god's wrath on the wrongdoer and

00:57:02.580 it's just it's so important to remember that it's for our good that the law exists to know what is

00:57:12.080 right in God's sight and what is not. And ultimately, it's the law that brings people

00:57:18.440 to an understanding of our absolute sinfulness. I mean, coming to a point of brokenness and

00:57:25.220 repentance is so painful. I've been in that position of just, I understand I am a wretched

00:57:32.480 sinner, and I have no hope. And what that realization does is opens the avenue for our

00:57:40.640 incredible, merciful God to come in and to take what is just broken and dark and horrible and

00:57:49.580 make us new, turn us into a new creation in Christ, fill us with his Holy Spirit,

00:57:55.660 forgive our sins. He takes our sins upon himself and equips us to walk righteous lives,

00:58:04.120 fruitful lives. It's the best news ever. And it's the law that actually enables us to understand

00:58:16.400 our true position before him and the greatness of his mercy towards us. And so what I believe is

00:58:25.000 grievous in the pro-life movement and in the church as a whole a lot of times is that we

00:58:31.340 downplay that. It's like we want almost to make people feel okay in their sin. And I know that

00:58:38.480 no Christian would say that that's what they're trying to do. But because of how we have just 1.00

00:58:47.940 gone about trying, just wanting to be liked, I guess, the gospel is offensive. And so we want

00:58:55.900 people to like us. And so we try to clean up the true message of the gospel, the true reality of

00:59:02.960 sin. And it's not good. And I have to remind myself of that, that, no, I don't want to put

00:59:09.980 any stumbling block in front of this person. I want them to know their true state because I want

00:59:14.680 the mercy of Christ to be able to come in and restore them. And that's the hope that we can

00:59:22.340 embrace is lord like bring us back to the truth of scripture and help us to help us to meet these

00:59:29.480 women where they are and point them to christ and that is actually going to mean making them fully

00:59:34.960 aware of of the grievousness of their sin i like to remind myself like i'm not nicer than god i'm

00:59:43.180 not kinder than him i'm not more merciful or more compassionate than him and if he says something

00:59:48.960 is wrong if he says something is unjust then it is and not only is he the creator of justice

00:59:56.760 governments were his ideas borders laws those were all his inventions by the way not only for his

01:00:03.580 own theocratic people but for the world in general for order for the flourishing of the imago day if

01:00:09.640 he created all these things and if first john 4 8 says that he is love never says that i'm love

01:00:15.300 that he is love then okay the most loving thing i can do is agree with god the most loving thing

01:00:21.620 i can do is agree with him about justice is agree with him about the value of life and i cannot

01:00:27.540 out mercy him and once you just rest in just like surrender to that just surrender to the fact that

01:00:33.560 you can't out mercy and compassion god and if all we have to do is agree with him it actually

01:00:39.380 just alleviates us of this burden of pragmatism and like okay how do we be strategically holy like

01:00:46.020 how do we be strategically in line with god rather than just saying you know what i give up

01:00:50.480 i i'm not i'm not going to try anymore i'm just going to surrender to your to your will and your

01:00:55.000 definitions it's actually like very freeing and that's what's very empowering it's like the whole

01:01:00.640 if our god is forced he can be against us um so yeah that's my encouragement to myself honestly

01:01:06.120 because i get scared about being controversial but it's my encouragement to everyone else too

01:01:11.080 jenna if people want to support you and support alliance family services how can they do that

01:01:16.840 you can find us at our website is alliancefamilyservices.org

01:01:20.680 awesome jenna thank you so much thank you

01:01:36.120 You

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - October 23, 2026

Ep. 1412 ｜ The Dark Side of the “Pro-Life” Movement & the Shocking Truth About Abortion Politics ｜ Ginna Cross

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