The Auron MacIntyre Show - September 28, 2026


How War Centralizes the Power of the State | Guest: News Fist | 9⧸28⧸26

Hosted by
Guests
Mentioned
Diversity Is a Weapon That Dismantles Social Trust | 9⧸25⧸26

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 13 minutes

Words per minute

167.34

Word count

12,304

Sentence count

200


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.080 Reaching your audience on Spotify with Display Ads is easy.
00:00:04.020 Use your existing creative and launch your first campaign in minutes with Spotify Ads Manager.
00:00:18.280 Hey everybody, how's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon.
00:00:21.260 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.
00:00:25.160 It's Theory Monday once again.
00:00:26.980 we've been working our way through an essay from Charles Tilly about the nature of the state
00:00:31.960 and whether it really acts as a organized crime syndicate and a maker of war more than it does
00:00:39.280 anything else. Is that the real origin of the state or is there something else? We've done a
00:00:43.500 couple other episodes reading through this. So when we're done, I'll make sure to put a playlist
00:00:48.280 so you can watch it from the beginning if you like. But today we are reaching into the portion
00:00:53.340 of this essay where he really gets into the war making itself and why it's so critical up to this
00:00:58.740 point we've been talking about the origin of the state and how it acts like a security guarantor
00:01:02.700 all of these things but today he's going to get into the wealth extraction for the purpose of
00:01:06.820 war making so we're going to go from there joining me as always for this series is news fist thank
00:01:12.800 you so much for coming on man always a pleasure thanks for having me on of course so we'll just
00:01:18.700 dive right into the essay since we are deep into it at this point and we are starting on page 11
00:01:25.180 of the essay here history talks the arrival of effective artillery came too late to have caused
00:01:31.600 the increase in viable size of state however the increased cost of fortifications to defend
00:01:36.520 against artillery did give an advantage to states enjoying larger fiscal basis stripped of its
00:01:42.440 technological determinism nevertheless beans logic provides a useful uh complement to lanes
00:01:48.960 for different military formats do uh cost substantially different amounts to produce
00:01:54.780 and to provide substantially different uh or do provide substantially different ranges of control
00:02:00.400 over opponents domestic and foreign after the 1400s uh after 1400 the european pursuit of larger
00:02:08.700 more permanent and more costly varieties of military organization did in fact drive spectacular
00:02:14.220 increases in principal budgets taxes and staff after 1500 or so princes who managed to create
00:02:20.720 the costly varieties of military organizations were indeed able to conquer new chunks of
00:02:26.700 territory the word territory should not be should not mislead us until the 18th century the greatest
00:02:33.040 powers uh were maritime states and naval warfare remained crucial to international uh position
00:02:39.480 consider uh fernand uh bruttles uh roll call for successive hegemonic powers within the capitalist
00:02:48.140 world venice and its empires uh genoa and its empire uh antwerp spain uh amsterdam holland
00:02:55.060 london england new york the uh the united states uh although brandenburg crush offers a partial
00:03:01.860 exception, only in our own time have such essentially land-bound states as Russia and
00:03:08.260 China achieve preponderate positions in the world's systems of state. Naval warfare has by no means,
00:03:15.840 when naval warfare was by no means the only reason for that bias towards the sea. Before the later
00:03:21.460 19th century, land transportation was so expensive everywhere in Europe that no country could afford
00:03:27.340 to supply a large army or a big city with grain and other heavy goods without having efficient
00:03:33.200 water transport rulers fed major inland centers such as berlin and madrid only a great effort and
00:03:39.980 considerable cost to the hinterlands the exceptional efficiency of waterways in the netherlands
00:03:45.180 undoubtedly gave the dutch great advantages of peace and war so a couple things here uh first
00:03:51.020 he's talking about technical innovations and how they change the state of warfare which then
00:03:55.600 then changes the way in which you politically organize uh one uh set of guys who did a great
00:04:01.600 uh podcast on this is actually the good old boys uh the bog beef and merrick over there
00:04:07.100 they talked about the evolution of firearms and how originally obviously you had these knights
00:04:12.780 and they had to be uh you know heavily trained they were very expensive and so you had this
00:04:18.140 futile uh way of organizing society because only a few people could really fight only
00:04:24.000 people with very high amounts of money could afford to have the implements that are most
00:04:29.780 effective in war. We're able to deploy them effectively. We're able to dedicate their
00:04:33.660 lives of training to them. And so as you started to see the arrow come in, once the French knight
00:04:40.700 starts losing to the English longbowmen, you see a radical change in how states are organizing.
00:04:47.180 Once you get to the point where the crossbow has become effective, the pope actually tries to ban
00:04:51.600 it because he recognizes it's going to
00:04:53.560 completely unspool
00:04:55.920 the social order as they understand it
00:04:57.700 so there is certainly truth here
00:04:59.620 that the innovations in
00:05:01.480 weaponry can radically
00:05:03.400 change how the state is altered
00:05:05.320 once you have the levée en masse, once you have
00:05:07.440 mass conscription, once you have the state as a
00:05:09.540 democratic entity that can compel
00:05:11.200 large amounts of people to serve
00:05:13.380 on its behalf, you're looking at a fundamentally
00:05:15.400 construct, you have
00:05:17.160 different constructs, you have a scale of
00:05:19.380 combat that simply did not exist prior
00:05:21.100 The soldier is now anyone you can shove a gun into their hands.
00:05:26.180 It's not some highly trained person who has spent their entire life in this arcane art that only a few people can afford to dedicate themselves to.
00:05:34.520 Obviously, it's also true when it comes to maritime powers, how they tend to be far more affluent.
00:05:41.240 They tend to have more dominance.
00:05:43.280 uh i'll obviously uh when you see for instance the way the train transformed the united states
00:05:49.400 how it no longer had to be built entirely along the mississippi or the eastern coast you could
00:05:54.100 now contact uh you know connect the entire thing you can move things around when we look at world
00:05:58.760 war ii and the way that train lines or world war one rather and the way that train lines uh radically
00:06:04.340 change the nature of combat uh and therefore uh the way that states would be structured uh there's
00:06:09.740 obviously a lot of underlying truth here that there is a technological kind of gradient that
00:06:18.220 changes the way that ultimately states are going to organize themselves and respond politically
00:06:22.220 well this this follows logically if states are based on violence and based upon the monopoly
00:06:28.200 of violence and the ability to defend and wage war then any significant development in warfare
00:06:33.300 is going to change that social order so for example the evolution of star forts that were
00:06:39.340 like a huge thing for centuries until the development
00:06:43.200 of the airplane, which rendered them all functionally useless,
00:06:46.420 or the evolution of iron-based weapons.
00:06:50.920 Up until that point, the major bottleneck for the making
00:06:54.040 of bronze was tin, which was very, very tightly controlled
00:06:56.800 because it was quite rare.
00:06:57.780 You'd, like, ship it really, really long distances.
00:07:00.100 And then when the, I think it was called the bloomer,
00:07:02.500 the forge that you could use to melt iron was invented
00:07:06.360 because iron ore was so common.
00:07:08.680 And effectively, any small city-state could make their own iron weaponry
00:07:13.020 and arm themselves.
00:07:15.040 I mean, are we going to see something like this
00:07:16.880 with the evolution of AI and drone warfare upending the social order
00:07:22.080 into a world of multitudinal weird sort of little mini-states
00:07:27.280 all backed by AI drones?
00:07:29.860 I mean, I don't know, but yes.
00:07:33.060 Shall we go on from here?
00:07:35.280 Yes.
00:07:36.240 Okay.
00:07:36.420 access to water mattered in another important way these metropolises on broydles list were all
00:07:43.800 major ports great centers of commerce and outstanding mobilizers of capital both the
00:07:48.920 trade and the capital served the purposes of ambitious rulers by a circuitous route the
00:07:54.400 observation brings us back to the arguments of lean and bean considering that both of them wrote
00:07:59.220 as economic historians the greatest weakness in their analysis comes as a surprise both of them
00:08:05.860 understate the importance of capital accumulation to military expansion as jean devry says of the
00:08:11.840 period after 1600 quote looking back one cannot help but be struck by the seemingly symbiotic
00:08:19.000 relationship existing between the state military power and the private economy's efficiency in the
00:08:25.380 age of absolutism behind every successful dynasty should sorry stood an array of opulent banking
00:08:31.420 families access to such bourgeois resources prince sorry access to such bourgeois resources
00:08:38.260 prince's state building and centralizing policies so he's basically sort of making the argument here
00:08:44.640 that um stability uh enables uh the markets stable markets uh sort of lead to the organization
00:08:53.560 of capital which leads to banking which then leads to the ability of the state to raise
00:08:59.780 further funds to build armies and, of course, more efficient taxation, which is necessary for
00:09:04.660 all of this. Great capitalists played crucial parts on both sides of the transaction. As the
00:09:12.020 principal sources of royal credit, especially in the short term, and as the most important
00:09:16.600 contractors in the risky but lucrative business of collecting royal taxes, as I just said.
00:09:23.500 The government's failure to pay these rents, incidentally, helped align the Parisian
00:09:29.200 bourgeoisie against the crown during the frond some 12 decades later. By 1595 the national debt
00:09:39.420 had risen to 300 million francs despite governmental bankruptcies, currency manipulations
00:09:44.800 and the monumental rise in taxes. By Louis XIV's death in 1715 war-induced borrowing had inflated
00:09:52.060 the total to about 3 billion francs the equivalent of about 18 years in royal revenues. War state
00:09:58.560 apparatus, taxation, and borrowing advanced in a tight cadence. Well, as did printing of money.
00:10:06.260 I believe he is talking about the inflation of the Assignan, which was essentially just a paper
00:10:11.860 currency issued by the French crown that you had to pay your taxes in, which is how they kept it
00:10:17.780 circulating. I think we've covered this before. This is called a legal tender, where you can't
00:10:25.440 just rock up to the tax office with a bag of wheat uh you know or a load of bitcoin oh no no no you
00:10:30.500 have to pay the tax office in a very very specific way who is it that controls the issuance of the
00:10:36.040 thing that you need to pay taxes for well it's the government although france was precocious
00:10:43.620 it was by no means alone quote even more than in the case of france reports the ever useful
00:10:50.880 earl j hamilton the national debt of england originated and has grown during major wars
00:10:56.200 except for an insignificant carryover from the stewart's the debt began in 1689
00:11:02.220 oh shit uh pardon me with the reign of william and mary in the words of adam smith it was in
00:11:08.800 the war which began in 1688 and was concluded by the treaty of rise week in 1697 that the
00:11:15.700 foundation of the present enormous debt of great britain was first laid so uh fiat money
00:11:23.800 banking uh and you know usury as well enable massive sort of government incomes which enable
00:11:30.940 the uh construction of large armies and depending on your point of view possibly pointless wars
00:11:39.160 i'm you know i don't know this is uh sorry i was gonna uh interject here quickly uh this is
00:11:47.000 for the people who have not studied nick land uh this is a big part of his philosophy that
00:11:54.020 previous to these financial instruments previous to these uh emergent capitalist norms uh basically
00:12:01.040 traditional societies created almost like a they had a negative uh input on the feedback loop they
00:12:08.760 They acted like a thermostat on the process of capital accumulation.
00:12:14.040 This is why usury was generally banned in many of these places.
00:12:17.340 It keeps this capital acceleration from radically altering society in the very ways we're talking about.
00:12:23.420 And so once that reaction begins, once you kind of pull the rods out of a nuclear reactor, it starts snowballing very quickly.
00:12:32.880 It becomes a runaway force because all of those social norms start eroding one by one as the capital accumulation rapidly changes society.
00:12:42.580 So the process here that's being described is exactly this concept of accelerationism in the philosophical sense, in the economic and political sense.
00:12:56.940 that once you've kind of started this track of we're going to print money, we're going to create
00:13:02.700 fiat currency, we're going to do usury, we're going to take out these big loans, you're going
00:13:09.640 to naturally create these elements of scale that everyone has to do. It creates the tank problem
00:13:15.860 where because you have tanks, I have to make tanks because the country next to me has invested
00:13:21.040 in this system of banking and has exploded its capacity for state control through these financial
00:13:26.900 instruments they now everyone else now must do so to keep up there is no way in order to
00:13:32.020 maintain your sovereignty as a state until unless you engage in this process and this is why the
00:13:37.180 city state and these smaller forms of government die is because they are unable to engage in this
00:13:42.540 process the same way the process is fundamentally one of scale which requires you to move well
00:13:47.960 beyond a traditional society and melts down all of the things that existed before this process
00:13:56.900 all right where were we just got done with the hamilton here
00:14:02.020 hamilton it is true goes on to quote the mercantilist uh charles davenant uh who complained
00:14:12.040 in 1698 that the high interest rates promoted by governments borrow borrowing were cramping
00:14:19.340 english trade davenant's uh complaint suggests however that england was already entering
00:14:24.640 Frederick Lane's third stage of state capital relations when merchants and landowners receive
00:14:31.820 more of the surplus than the suppliers of protection. Until the 16th century, the English
00:14:37.260 expected their kings to live on revenue from their own property and to levy taxes only for war.
00:14:43.660 G.R. Elton's marks the great innovation of Thomas Cromwell's drafting of Henry VIII's subsidy bills
00:14:51.720 for 1534 and 1540. Quote, 1540 was very careful to continue the real innovation of 1534,
00:15:03.120 namely the extraordinary contributions could be levied for reasons other than war. After that
00:15:09.780 point, as before, however, war making provided the main stimulus to increase the level of taxation
00:15:16.140 as well as of debt. Rarely did debt and taxes receive. What A.T. Peacock and Jay Wiseman call
00:15:24.180 a displacement effect and others sometimes call a ratchet effect occurred. When public revenue
00:15:29.940 and expenditures rose abruptly during war, they set down new higher floors beneath which peacetime
00:15:35.900 revenues and expenditures did not sink. During the Napoleonic War, British taxes rose from 15 to 24
00:15:43.360 percent of the nation's income and to almost three times the French level taxation true
00:15:48.940 Britain had the double advantage of relying less on expensive land forces that then its
00:15:55.500 continental rivals and a drawing more of its tax revenue from customer customs and excises
00:16:01.780 taxes that were despite evasion significantly cheaper to collect than land taxes property
00:16:07.560 taxes and poll taxes nevertheless in england as well as everywhere else both debt and taxes rose
00:16:14.280 enormously from the 17th century onward and they rose mainly as a function of increasing the cost
00:16:20.580 the increased cost of war making so he's saying here that war is traditionally this engine and it
00:16:28.300 was the only thing that could justify large amounts of wealth extraction from the people
00:16:33.100 The king was expected to live on his own lands. He was just another lord who gathered money from his crops and everything else. But ultimately, he could only levy that tax when it's time to go to war. We need troops. We need that extra boost to go ahead and send people to fight somewhere else. And so we have to extract extra money.
00:16:53.260 with the introduction of the idea that there were non-war causes that were important enough to go
00:17:00.340 ahead and levy taxes at a higher rate we end up with the scenario where now yes the war is still
00:17:06.800 pegging the largest amount of extraction yes we're going to war we need more money that's going to be
00:17:12.140 the main driver driver but every time we go to war and we increase the amount of money that the
00:17:16.420 state is extracting it stays the same we never go back to pre-war spending levels and of course we
00:17:22.280 can see something like this in the united states uh where once we create the war the the income tax
00:17:29.480 so that we can pay for a war we never get rid of the income tax even when the war is over
00:17:34.340 the tax stays the extra revenue stays we find new uses for that tax that has now been normalized
00:17:41.260 and then the next time we go to war we find more taxes a new way to do that and then when we come
00:17:45.820 back from that war the government spending continues to stay at that rate we never see
00:17:49.640 a drop it just continues to justify a new floor below which we just never drop the spending rate
00:17:55.420 so the growth of government continues in wartime and peacetime yeah there's a very um pernicious
00:18:02.400 incentive kind of feedback loop at work here um which is why as as many people have have sort of
00:18:10.080 pointed out um governments seem to really really like war because uh it not only increases the
00:18:16.040 amount of money that they can take in, but their power, the amount that they can like fleece off
00:18:23.520 their tax base, it gives them a sort of existential reason for being. I've noticed this about
00:18:30.620 government a lot. COVID would be a very, very good example of this. Most of the time, the government
00:18:36.460 is just out there just sort of administrating. It's not a very sexy job, right? The government
00:18:43.480 doesn't you know they want to feel uh like you know they're they're doing something existential
00:18:49.140 you know they want that respect and for example when when covid happened everyone was like oh my
00:18:54.040 god you know we have to we have to look uh to the government you get certain figures that are
00:18:59.060 elevated they're suddenly very important people don't just look at them as oh you're the guy who
00:19:02.520 just administers the taxes which we don't like very much suddenly you're defending the country
00:19:06.760 from an existential threat they love that stuff and of course they get to increase their money
00:19:12.860 and how as a consequence well and it's hard not to it's hard not to notice that you know the
00:19:18.880 american government fought a war in afghanistan for 20 years we finally leave afghanistan and we
00:19:25.360 immediately need to go fund a war with russia and then go fight a war with iran right and there are
00:19:32.020 a lot of reasons why that got done we don't have time to discuss them all here have discussed them
00:19:37.580 other area at length but we can just see that continued stack of then the war never ends there's
00:19:42.680 always another war another justification that's literally why we came up with the term forever
00:19:47.100 wars even to the point where when one party explicitly campaigns against involving us
00:19:53.520 directly in these wars the machinery of government still be seems inevitably tied to produce exactly
00:19:59.660 this because without those you know the money does not flow the defense contractors don't get the
00:20:04.440 the money the congressional uh campaigns don't get the money like it's always attached to something
00:20:10.200 like this yeah the the well it's the incentive structure uh at the end of the day if we could
00:20:16.420 find out a way to incentivize governments uh and i i think this also like works as well because like
00:20:22.260 uh you know if you look post-world war ii in both england both the uk and the us um afterwards there
00:20:30.500 was a big push, you know, well, we're not going to drop the tax rate. Well, what are we going to
00:20:34.120 do? Oh, we're going to build the great society, right? We're going to build the NHS, right? We're
00:20:38.400 going to give back to the people. I mean, the way surely to give back to the people would have been
00:20:43.320 to lower taxes to previous things, but that's, of course, never going to happen. Okay, so what
00:20:50.400 do states do? It's a fair question, I guess. As should now be clear, Lane's analysis of protection
00:21:00.080 fails to distinguish among several different uses of state-controlled violence. Under the
00:21:05.940 general heading of organized violence, the agents of states characteristically carry on
00:21:10.460 four different activities. One, war-making, eliminating or neutralizing their own rivals
00:21:17.040 outside of the territories in which they have clear and continuous priorities as wielders of
00:21:22.360 force. Two, state-making, eliminating or neutralizing their rivals inside those territories.
00:21:30.080 Three, protection, eliminating or neutralizing the enemies of their clients.
00:21:36.320 And four, extraction, acquiring the means of carrying out the first three activities,
00:21:41.680 war making, state making, and protection.
00:21:45.580 The third item corresponds to protection as analyzed by Lane, but the other three also
00:21:50.820 involve the application of force.
00:21:52.540 They overlap incompletely and to varying degrees.
00:21:55.940 For example, war-making against the commercial rivals of the local bourgeoisie delivers protection to that bourgeoisie, or war-making against a sort of an alternate client group.
00:22:07.960 To the extent that a population is divided into enemy classes and the state extends its favors partially to one class or another, state-making actually reduces the protection given to some of those classes.
00:22:20.280 War-making, state-making, protection, and extraction each take a number of forms.
00:22:25.940 Extraction, for example, ranges from outright plunder to regular tribute to bureaucratized
00:22:31.540 taxation. Yet all four depend on the state's tendency to monopolize the concentrated means
00:22:37.060 of coercion. From the perspective of those who dominate the state, each of them, if carried on
00:22:42.820 effectively, generally reinforces the other, because they all lead to the strengthening of
00:22:48.960 power of the centralized state. Thus, a state that successfully eradicates its internal rivals
00:22:54.180 strengthens its ability to extract resources, to wage war, and to protect its chief supporters.
00:23:00.780 In the earlier European experience, broadly speaking, these supporters were typically
00:23:05.160 landlords, armed retainers of the monarch, and churchmen. Each of the major uses of violence
00:23:12.040 produced characteristic forms of organization. War-making yielded armies, navies, and supporting
00:23:17.580 services. State-making produced durable instruments of surveillance and control within that territory.
00:23:24.180 Protection relied on the organisation of war-making and state-making, but added to it an apparatus
00:23:29.200 by which the protected called forth the protection that was their due, notably through the courts
00:23:34.220 and representative assemblies. Extraction brought fiscal and accounting structures into being.
00:23:39.660 The organisation and deployment of violence themselves account for much of the characteristic
00:23:44.820 structure of European states. The general rule seems to have operated like this.
00:23:52.180 the more costly the activity all other things being equal the greater was the organizational
00:23:58.860 residue to the extent for example that a given government invested in long in large standing
00:24:04.880 armies a very costly if effective means of war making the bureaucracy created to service the
00:24:10.800 army was likely to become bulky furthermore a government building a standing army while
00:24:16.780 controlling a small population was likely to incur greater costs and therefore build a bulkier
00:24:22.700 structure than a government within a populist country brandenburg prussia was the classic case
00:24:28.440 of high cost for available resources the prussian effort to build an army matching those of its
00:24:33.500 larger continental neighbors created an immense bureaucratic structure it militarized and
00:24:38.760 bureaucratized much of German social life. So right here, again, we can see the runaway
00:24:45.940 nature of this process, right? It's a self-exciting feedback loop. Every one of these things makes the
00:24:53.380 next one easier. It encourages it. It has the incentive structure we're talking about, the flow
00:24:58.640 that makes sense. So you get rid of your internal enemies, which means you are not only more secure
00:25:05.260 in your power but you're also more likely to be able to extract more wealth because now people
00:25:10.920 aren't committed to their money isn't spent elsewhere it's not committed to other organizations
00:25:15.040 you're not battling all the time for the purchase there once you have more money coming in well now
00:25:20.820 you can increase the size and the power of the military once you've increased the size and power
00:25:25.440 of the military you become a more effective warfighter but you also need a larger bureaucracy
00:25:30.420 And that bureaucracy takes up, you know, commands more and more power. It creates more jobs. It has more influence inside your political system. As we were just talking about, it seems to some extent a large amount of your congressmen only exist to figure out how to get us to the next war so that they can continue to feed their machine.
00:25:48.680 And so in this way, every aspect of the growth of the state adds to another incentive to grow the state more. And again, the tank problem, the more that is developed on your side, the more someone else has to figure this out on their side, or they're going to fall behind.
00:26:05.240 If no one else can have a standing army, if you're the only one who has the necessary extraction ability and production ability to create the larger army, not only are they going to lose on you on the battlefield, they're also going to fall behind in the bureaucratic construction that gives you a tighter control over your populace, your domestic understanding, the extraction of tax revenues domestically.
00:26:29.600 And so they're not just falling behind on the battlefield. They're falling behind everywhere. And so, again, every aspect of this process is pushing people farther and farther, deeper and deeper into this logic of growing the state, growing every aspect of the state, making every victory for the expansion of the state bigger over time.
00:26:47.740 and also the larger the bureaucracy um the larger the client group that you need to service it
00:26:54.000 because you definitely do not want your um bureaucracies being run by people who are not
00:26:59.380 your clients so as the bureaucracy expands you need a larger and larger client group in order
00:27:04.800 to staff them you have to give them protection um i mean i guess when you when it comes to
00:27:13.040 the army if you know if they're battling in a foreign place they don't necessarily
00:27:16.600 have to be your clients but the people administering that army absolutely have to be
00:27:22.360 um otherwise they they could mess up you know mess the process up and stuff like that
00:27:27.920 you have to you have to have a sort of uh compliant uh patron client relationship with
00:27:33.740 those administering the war machine there's a reason that the american military is still full
00:27:39.420 of guys from texas and appalachia but the actual like officer corps like the the general higher
00:27:46.900 rank officer corps is increasingly a bunch of managers from washington dc right like they're
00:27:52.160 very different sets for very different jobs even though they're all wearing the same uniform but
00:27:56.960 i'll pick up for you here since you just read a bunch of that with respect to state making in the
00:28:01.720 narrow sense of eliminating or neutralizing the local rivals of the people who controlled the
00:28:06.260 state a territory a territory populated by great landlords or by distinct religious groups
00:28:12.360 generally imposes large costs on a conqueror than one of fragmented power or homogeneous culture
00:28:18.440 this time fragmented and homogeneous sweden with its relatively small but effective apparatus of
00:28:24.280 control illustrates the corollary so interestingly here even though i think this guy is probably a
00:28:30.480 leftist seems to have marxist leanings he's noticing something that i have talked about at
00:28:35.440 length that many conservatives or, well, really right wingers have talked about at length,
00:28:40.700 which is that the breaking up of a population that has these distinct beliefs, these distinct
00:28:48.680 demands, these organic, natural phenomena are critical to centralizing the power of the state.
00:28:54.900 The total state arises by turning everyone into an individual. When everyone is an individual,
00:29:01.000 the state is the only thing that you interact with collectively, and it's always going to have
00:29:05.200 more power but when you have these you know distinct religious groups when you have these
00:29:09.700 uh well-founded uh you know relationship systems based on you know these great landlords or you
00:29:14.940 know these feudal lords everything else they're going to be far more resistant and able to resist
00:29:18.980 the growth of the state so the destruction of those groups is critical for this type of expansion
00:29:24.640 of power which is why you see it over and over and over again that's not a mistake the people
00:29:29.320 in your country who are importing foreign working classes who are not loyal to you and your beliefs
00:29:35.920 and your way of life, but only to the state that gives them money, that's on purpose. They're
00:29:41.020 importing clients to complete this process. Finally, the cost of protection in the sense
00:29:46.440 of eliminating or neutralizing the enemies of the state baker's clients mounted with the range
00:29:52.780 over which that protection extended portugal's effort to bar the mediterranean to its merchant
00:29:59.720 competitors in the spice trade provided a textbook case of unsuccessful protection against the
00:30:05.300 nonetheless built up a massive structure thus the sheer size of the government vary directly with
00:30:11.200 the effort devoted to extraction state making protection and especially war making but inversely
00:30:16.700 with the commercialization of the economy and the extent of the resource space that what is more
00:30:22.020 the relative bulk of different features of the government varied with cost resource ratios of
00:30:28.040 extraction state making protection and war making in spain we see the hyper hypertrophy i can say
00:30:36.620 this hypertrophy i can't say it okay thank you thank you of court uh and of court and courts as
00:30:45.440 the outcome of centuries of effort at subsidizing internal enemies, whereas in Holland, we are
00:30:53.940 amazed to see how small a fiscal apparatus grows up with high taxes within reach commercialized
00:31:02.780 economy. Clearly, war-making, extractions, state-making, and protections are independent.
00:31:08.780 Speaking very, very generally, the classic European state-making experience followed this
00:31:14.240 casual pattern and you see the little diagram he has here where war making uh you know flows
00:31:20.240 protection you have state making flowing to protection you have all the connections here
00:31:24.800 in an idealized sequence a great lord made war so effectively as to become dominant in a
00:31:31.480 substantial territory but the war making led to an increased extraction of the means of war
00:31:36.200 men arms food lodging transportation supplies and or money to buy them from the population
00:31:42.200 within the territory the building of the war making capacity likewise increased the capacity
00:31:47.880 to extract the very uh activity of extraction if successful entailed the elimination neutralization
00:31:54.840 or cooperation of the great lord's local rivals thus it led to state making as a by-product it
00:32:00.420 created organization in the form of tax collection agencies uh police forces courts uh
00:32:06.720 account keepers thus it again led to state making to a lesser extent war making likewise led to
00:32:19.260 state making through the expansion of military organization itself as a standing army war
00:32:23.920 industries supporting bureaucracies and rather later schools grew up within the state apparatus
00:32:29.820 all of these structures checked the potential rivals and opponents in the course of making war
00:32:35.540 extracting resources building up the state apparatus managers of states formed alliances
00:32:41.940 with specific social classes the members of these classes loaned resources provided technical
00:32:47.360 services or helped ensure the compliance of the rest of the population all in return for a measure
00:32:51.840 of protection against their own rivals and enemies as a result these multiple strategic choices a
00:32:56.540 distinctive state apparatus grows up within each major section of europe so he's explaining that
00:33:03.580 there is this constant again incentive the better you get at making war as a local warlord uh the
00:33:09.760 more you get better at extracting the resources that create uh the the conditions of war and
00:33:15.380 victory in war and because you get better at extracting those resources you have to eliminate
00:33:20.380 your local rivals uh once those local rivals are eliminated you start to uh look to build these
00:33:26.420 institutions that uh fundamentally cement your power in this paradigm uh you have to find new
00:33:33.000 classes of people to run these institutions to be loyal to you the thing you offer them is
00:33:37.320 protection against their domestic enemies and advantages uh some would say that a managerial
00:33:42.780 class might emerge uh to fill this in the modern day uh and so again you just see that every state
00:33:49.600 that wants to compete every state that ultimately wants to be a big player has to follow in this
00:33:55.460 logic the tank problem over and over again if the the state next to me has eliminated it's all its
00:34:00.460 rivals it's gotten very good at extracting money if it's you know built these into these engines
00:34:05.620 of state from uh the standing army to a state education system to indoctrinate its people
00:34:11.180 then it's going to wield all of those things as powerful weapons against me and so as a rival
00:34:16.380 state my only option is to accelerate along the same path or fall behind uh in my opinion this is
00:34:23.640 this is the strongest part of this paper uh this is this is sort of the real nugget of what tilly's
00:34:29.620 trying to get at. That sort of, you know, the large of the army leads to organization,
00:34:38.280 which leads to greater extraction taxes, the bureaucracy to administer these things,
00:34:43.120 the client groups that are needed to run them. And it just sort of like, you know,
00:34:47.100 builds up in this feedback loop. And a lot of this process really results in what we would call
00:34:53.340 modern society um although this is presented as wholly bad um after sort of periods of sporadic
00:35:04.160 war during peacetime a lot of these structures do flow into the rest of society it's just that
00:35:11.460 because of the the nature of the state as soon as they want to make war again or as soon as they
00:35:16.660 start running out of like resources or i don't know uh they want a hot cocoa and decide that
00:35:21.300 They've got to like steal it from Russia or something like that.
00:35:23.480 The whole process starts up again, becomes even more extractive.
00:35:29.140 And of course, in the modern world, technology provides a sort of a way to scale this once again.
00:35:34.500 So possibly another way of putting this with Chile is that one of the main breaks
00:35:39.560 on the sort of continual evolution of this process is technology.
00:35:44.000 And once new kinds of technology are found and more scale opens up,
00:35:48.600 This whole thing starts up yet again, enabling sort of more, even more organization by like a smaller group of people, more extraction, more war.
00:35:57.860 And this is why every state is rushing towards AI right now, because AI is going to increase your war making capacity.
00:36:05.840 We already know, you know, these algorithms are being used to do targeting packages and things in the Iran war as we speak.
00:36:12.400 But it's also going to increase your domestic control over your population, right?
00:36:16.260 like it's going to give you better surveillance it's going to you're going to use the flock
00:36:19.640 cameras they're not for criminals they're for you buddy uh you know like ultimately you know
00:36:23.780 they're going to gain all of these advantages across the board ai is a new technical revolution
00:36:28.820 and capacity some people think it's going to be a disruptor that's going to allow uh smaller states
00:36:33.420 to compete you kind of mentioned that previously you know drone warfare that kind of thing uh but
00:36:37.760 the other and i think more likely possibility is actually just expands the capacity of existing
00:36:42.480 states for war making and extraction and all you know surveillance control security all of these
00:36:48.960 things are all folded into this technological revolution but it also shrinks the size of the
00:36:54.520 client group that you need to rely upon to run yes your bureaucracy because instead of having
00:37:00.520 a hundred thousand bureaucrats each who can say cover a hundred people you can have a tenth of
00:37:06.140 that that can cover 10 times as much so you can shower even more benefits on them they're a smaller
00:37:13.980 size they're easier to control you can enforce greater ideological rigidity and you can also
00:37:19.640 increase the gap between them and the lumpen proletariat sort of you know enforcing the barrier
00:37:25.160 between who is in and who is out okay how states formed this analysis if correct has two strong
00:37:35.380 implications for the development of national states first popular resistance to war making
00:37:40.420 and state making made a different difference really is that what okay when ordinary people
00:37:47.180 resisted vigorously authorities made concessions guarantees of rights representative institution
00:37:52.860 courts of appeal i mean i wouldn't say okay these concessions paragraph but this is entirely wrong
00:38:00.160 we're going to rip it up okay these concessions in their turn constrained the later paths of
00:38:06.960 war making and state making to be sure alliances with fragments of the ruling class generally
00:38:12.080 increased the effects of popular action i would say it was essential but the broad mobilization
00:38:17.240 of gentry against charles i helped give the english revolution of 1640 a far greater impact
00:38:23.460 on political institutions than did any of the multiple rebellions during the tudor era i think
00:38:29.540 he's talking about the you know mainly unorganized uh rebellions but um anyway second the relative
00:38:37.780 balance among of war making protection extraction and state making significantly affected the
00:38:42.880 organization of states that emerged from these four activities to the extent that war making
00:38:48.260 went on with relatively little extraction protection and state making for example military
00:38:53.800 forces ended up playing a larger and more autonomous part in national politics this is
00:38:59.060 true. Spain is perhaps the best European example. To the extent that protection, as in Venice or
00:39:05.100 Holland, prevailed over war-making, extraction, and state-making, oligarchies of the protected
00:39:10.420 classes tended to dominate subsequent national politics. From the relative predominance of
00:39:16.500 state-making sprang the disproportionate elaboration of policing and surveillance,
00:39:21.240 the papal states illustrate that extreme. Before the 20th century, any state that failed to put
00:39:26.860 considerable effort into war making was likely to disappear as the 20th century war on however it
00:39:32.860 became increasingly common for one state to lend give or sell war making means to another in those
00:39:38.980 cases the recipient state could put a disproportionate effort into extraction protection and
00:39:44.280 or state making and yet survive this is an interesting point because what he's sort of
00:39:50.140 describing uh in a way is uh the eu before trump where because of american security provision
00:39:57.380 uh they didn't really have to uh spend any money on war making so they could devote all of their
00:40:03.240 energies into uh extraction and and state making and uh you know giving largesse to their preferred
00:40:11.400 client groups interesting yeah it's there's a couple things there so yeah this is obviously
00:40:17.480 a phenomenon where we have we've watched a large chunk of the western world hand their uh you know
00:40:24.240 their their war making capacity off to america and as you said uh that means that they all get
00:40:29.600 the reward of being able to do more state state making doing more extract extraction increasing
00:40:35.960 internal security and control of uh the people inside of their uh borders however of course in
00:40:42.940 the end we're making a still sovereignty and so that has been a devil's bargain for them because
00:40:48.600 a lot of these european countries have slowly come to realize oh we're not sovereign at all
00:40:52.760 like by handing over that that power yes we have these other capacities but it turns out that
00:40:58.340 ultimately violence is the ultimate authority from which all authority derives and if you don't have
00:41:03.140 the capacity for violence you're ultimately not the state you might be running aspects of the state
00:41:08.200 You might be increasing your capacity in those aspects, but you are not the final decider.
00:41:13.440 You are not the final sovereign in this setup.
00:41:17.500 I also want to go back and hit this idea that the people were resistant to war making and that's what stopped them.
00:41:24.700 That's obviously false.
00:41:25.940 uh so what actually stopped them is that the the king did not have the ability to make demands on
00:41:34.620 the people because there were intermediate institutions to which they were loyal they
00:41:39.560 were loyal to the family they were loyal to the church they were loyal to the local baron
00:41:43.560 they were loyal to all of these other you know possibly war making uh uh apparatuses all these
00:41:52.280 other pre-state bonds that kept the demands of the king low the reason the king could not constantly
00:42:00.320 demand the loyalty of troops was that they were already loyal to all these other things and so
00:42:06.620 they couldn't just show up whenever and fight on his behalf because he did not give them enough
00:42:11.040 he's not the sole source of their ability to survive in fact relatively low compared to the
00:42:16.860 local baron the church the family all these things they were far more dependent on them
00:42:20.760 the reason that they now have the ability to wield this power more effectively the reason that the
00:42:25.620 people don't push back is not because well something changed about the people it's that
00:42:29.640 the number of elites the people are accounted to accountable to shifted previously the people were
00:42:34.700 uh were accountable to a large number of disparate elites with different motivations and holds on
00:42:41.360 their loyalty once they were accountable to only one set of elites and with a centralized authority
00:42:46.380 where everything flowed from that state the nature of the interaction changed it was it was a
00:42:51.800 structure of the elites that changed not the will of the people that was what was keeping the stuff
00:42:57.540 in check you know another interesting thing that is um and again to go back to the the eu
00:43:03.880 um because they have such a small military force uh the actual influence of um the military on
00:43:13.520 politics is basically non-existent. It's not like there are millions of soldiers in the EU who
00:43:21.000 would, you know, or in member states of the EU who would support a certain party. This is quite
00:43:26.360 different to the position in the US, where even though the, you know, the army is relatively
00:43:32.620 small as a sort of component of the entire population, it's not a levee en masse, you still
00:43:37.280 do have ex-military people in politics exerting a sort of political um thing and so you can sort
00:43:45.600 of make the argument that the lack of these people in the eu and the incredible focus that they have
00:43:51.120 had on you know their client groups and extraction and stuff like that leads them to be very delusional
00:43:59.200 when it comes to to war making right like we're seeing this with the eu at the moment they're
00:44:03.520 They're like, oh, you know, right, well, I guess we're doing war making again.
00:44:06.900 Well, what should we do?
00:44:07.540 Well, let's go to war with Russia.
00:44:08.940 And it seems to be very few people to be like, listen, that's a terrible idea.
00:44:14.700 What the hell are you doing?
00:44:16.360 Because there's no real political force composed of ex-soldiers.
00:44:22.740 You find this after large wars, all the soldiers, they come home
00:44:27.020 and they become a sort of cohesive political force
00:44:29.860 and begin to affect the political terrain.
00:44:33.520 It's really fascinating because, excuse me, after World War II, America and its civic life was largely defined by these military fraternities.
00:44:47.600 We have the veterans of foreign wars and the American Legion, and they had a post in usually multiple in every city in America.
00:44:56.360 the the you know the vfw or the american ford legion was like the bar that everybody went to
00:45:03.880 and because they were all vets they'd all had that experience and so that's where political
00:45:09.320 life occurred a lot of times you know when i was working in local politics the first place we start
00:45:14.560 campaigning was at the vfw because that's where a lot of the movers and shakers are going to end up
00:45:20.040 that's where politically active people are going to be but as few and fewer americans have actually
00:45:24.300 been in the experience of going through war you no longer have that faction anymore and like you
00:45:29.620 said in the eu it's even more so to the point where there there's just no one around who's ever
00:45:33.740 fought a war before like not really you know they've sent some troops to help american afghanistan
00:45:39.080 or something but they've they've never actually spearheaded an independent military action so
00:45:44.620 they're just over there like uh uh i don't know uh get the white guys to in in the uk that are
00:45:50.600 still around to go fight for ukraine right like you guys are just gonna have to sacrifice for
00:45:55.160 even though we're actively telling you we're dispossessing you of the country and english
00:45:58.600 english is just a an idea and has nothing to do with your actual heritage or right to the country
00:46:03.620 but you should go die for this thing that you don't own right like they can't even get their
00:46:07.840 rhetoric on board when it's time to go fight a war much less actually plan a military action
00:46:13.300 or make intelligent decisions on hey maybe this is too much and we shouldn't involve ourselves in
00:46:17.580 Indeed, if there were, you know, in the EU or the UK sort of like large sort of fraternal orders composed of military men, they would be looked on with extreme suspicion by the government.
00:46:33.300 You know, all the armed forces clubs, they're being forced to accept women now, commissars, you know, it'd be terrible.
00:46:42.240 like you know military men hanging out uh you know what if they use a naughty word or you know
00:46:48.660 it just it becomes the whole idea of of war making just becomes uh secondary to uh extraction
00:46:56.640 and protection i i think this is going to end really badly personally uh do you want to go
00:47:02.080 next part or should i uh let's see here uh this simplified simplified model however neglects the
00:47:07.600 external relations that shaped every national state. Early in the process, the distinction
00:47:13.920 between internal and external remained as unclear as the distinction between state power and power
00:47:19.860 accruing to lords allied with the state. Later, three interlocking influences connected
00:47:26.880 any given national state to the European network of states. First, there were the flows of resources
00:47:34.440 in the form of loans and supplies especially loans and supplied uh supplies devoted to war
00:47:40.140 making second there was the competition between states for hegemony in disputed territories which
00:47:46.060 some sim which stimulated war making and temporarily erased the distinction between
00:47:51.380 war making state making and extraction third there was the inter uh in intermittent uh creation of
00:47:58.040 coalitions of states that temporarily combined their efforts to force a given state into a
00:48:03.460 certain form or position within the international network the war making coalition is uh is one
00:48:09.480 example but the peacemaking coalition played as an even more crucial part from 1648 if not before
00:48:16.560 at the end ends of wars all effective uh european states uh coalesced temporarily to bargain over
00:48:23.840 the boundaries and rules of the recent belligerence from that point on periods of major reorganization
00:48:29.120 of the european state system came in spurts at the settlement of widespread wars from each war
00:48:35.460 in general emerged a fewer national national states that had then had entered it so you have
00:48:41.920 an interesting dynamic here where you have these kind of fits of a war of outbreak and once they
00:48:48.940 are done the european community kind of comes together and signs a treaty that kind of redefines
00:48:54.580 the nature of what states are in that moment now that one state has kind of been burned out you
00:48:59.800 know these guys have conquered these guys we need to kind of reset the rules on what that looks like
00:49:03.960 and every time you're kind of consolidating the states each one of these becomes larger each one
00:49:09.740 of them becomes bigger player by having a seat at the table for the negotiations you kind of
00:49:15.440 cement yourself as one of the few people that ultimately are one of the few players that
00:49:19.440 ultimately has uh kind of this ability to make these final decisions and define the outcome
00:49:24.900 define uh kind of the superstructure that these states are going to exist under post the war and
00:49:30.440 so you are also narrowing the number of players who can be involved every iteration of this game
00:49:36.660 so an interesting point there about the nature of kind of european warfare specifically uh this is
00:49:43.040 not exactly the way that warfare has existed in other areas uh and so it has uh perhaps uh you
00:49:50.260 could i don't know would you say that this is a function of europe still having kind of the
00:49:54.760 skeleton of christendom through the pope like you still had this idea 1648 was the treaty of
00:50:01.820 westphalia which was the start of the westphalian system which is the first thing they teach you
00:50:06.380 when you you know do international relations at uni and like all sort of like principles it's
00:50:12.120 it's messy but the important thing is 1648 was the end of the hundred years war and it produced a
00:50:18.800 principle of whose ruler whose religion which was essentially a homogenizing tendency among
00:50:25.800 european states um so if you're a country and your monarch was a protestant um then you could tell
00:50:34.320 all the catholics that they had to leave uh you couldn't take all of their stuff they they had to
00:50:38.820 leave voluntarily. But this homogenized thing, so you didn't have so much of a situation where
00:50:45.980 you would say have a Protestant country. I mean, again, the definitions were kind of different
00:50:52.700 back then, but with little bunches of Catholics spread around inside it. Generally, during the
00:50:59.620 Hundred Years' War and leading up to it, what would happen is that as soon as a Catholic monarch
00:51:04.760 ascended to the throne, every single Protestant within that territory would start trying to
00:51:08.720 overthrow them and vice versa of course because of the the massive split that was caused by the
00:51:13.460 reformation so the treaty of westphalia um sort of cemented this idea that it was the king that
00:51:20.800 chose the religion for that nation that nation state westphalia is said to be the birth of the
00:51:26.740 nation state because of that homogenizing tendency it came down to the catholics the lutherans and
00:51:36.240 And, oh, my God, there's like one other, I think the Catholics,
00:51:40.020 the Protestants and the Lutherans, the Anabaptists were excluded
00:51:43.120 because of what happened in that city that I did a video of.
00:51:49.320 I can't remember the name of it.
00:51:51.060 The Anabaptists did like quite a bad thing in this German city
00:51:55.500 and caused all manner of sort of riot and tumult.
00:51:59.120 So they were regarded as a bit sus.
00:52:02.180 um so yeah it was it was a homogenizing thing i'm sure there was like partially sort of like you
00:52:08.160 know um bureaucracies at scale but the important thing was to basically have some kind of stability
00:52:14.520 and most of the instability in the previous 100 years was based on clashes between protestantism
00:52:20.780 and catholicism so a bit what basically like the indian partition this sort of thing happened
00:52:27.160 essentially all over europe where the king is like you have got a catholic king you're a catholic
00:52:31.100 country now all you protestants can bugger off and and vice versa there was a great sort of like
00:52:36.000 movement but afterwards things were much more stable for a while right you had this previous
00:52:42.820 phenomenon where kingdoms were not ally allied uh totally with the culture or religion of the
00:52:52.040 people they were ruling over you could have germanic peoples who were ruled over by kings who
00:52:56.480 had you know no direct relation to their particular religious tradition or you know you would have
00:53:02.900 they didn't rule over the entire the idea that you would rule over the entire nation of people
00:53:07.820 was not synonymous with the existence of the state the state and the people were defend were
00:53:13.520 defendably separate and post West Velia the idea is now the state and the people are one that you
00:53:20.720 have this unifying homogenizing understanding of religion inside the state there's a there's a
00:53:26.480 particular dictum that the state can push down onto the people uh that makes them a nation uh
00:53:32.180 under you know kind of this new understanding uh and so you have a fundamental shift in the way
00:53:37.920 that we understand uh kind of organizations and that's really hard for people even to get up to
00:53:42.720 this day they they have difficulty understanding that like people who are not inside the border
00:53:48.440 of a place called germany could be germans uh you know they had so they don't understand why
00:53:54.780 you know hitler would declare an invasion to try to unify those peoples again and bring them back
00:53:59.700 under the rule they don't understand why putin would try to recapture a portion of a place called
00:54:04.960 ukraine even though it's like ethnically dominated by russians that they don't you know the line in
00:54:10.560 the map means something to them that it didn't mean previously they have a hard time grasping
00:54:15.440 uh you know the the way in which uh state organization has shifted i am look i i also
00:54:21.140 have a hard time grasping this, as a perfectly atomised
00:54:23.940 Westerner with absolutely no connection to any kind
00:54:27.260 of religion or ethnicity, I find the entire idea
00:54:31.180 incomprehensible, obviously.
00:54:33.520 Münster is the name of the city in Germany that the Anabaptists
00:54:37.180 took over.
00:54:37.660 I can't believe that dropped out of my mind.
00:54:39.380 There is a Fistry episode on that, by the way, if you want
00:54:42.140 to go over to my channel.
00:54:43.480 I think I did like four episodes on that terrible thing
00:54:48.000 and, you know, basically what happened.
00:54:49.420 um or as international relations early in the process external and internal rivals overlapped
00:54:57.100 to a large degree only the establishment of large perimeters of control within which great lords
00:55:03.720 had checked their rivals sharpen the line between internal and external if we allow the fragile
00:55:09.820 distinction between internal and external state making process then we might uh uh schematize the
00:55:16.500 history of european uh of european state making as as three stages a the different success uh
00:55:23.980 the different success of some power holders in external struggles establishes the differences
00:55:30.800 between internal and external arena for the deployment of first uh force b external competition
00:55:38.760 generates internal state making c external compacts among states influence the form and
00:55:45.600 locus of particular states even more powerfully in this perspective state certified organizations
00:55:52.440 such as the league of nations and the unified united nations simply extend the european-based
00:55:57.600 process to the whole world whether uh forced or voluntary bloody or peaceful decolonization
00:56:04.160 simply completed the process by which existing states uh states lead to create new ones so
00:56:12.800 So actually, this is what I was trying to get at when I was talking about the, you know, America as Christendom coming together, sorry, rather Europe as Christendom coming together and having these negotiations because they understood themselves as different pieces of what was at some level a cultural inheritance that I think flowed from that, you know, kind of that tradition.
00:56:36.380 And so you have the exporting of this idea, as he says, to these larger organizations like the League of Nations or the United Nations, where they're trying to have take the same kind of council effect.
00:56:48.480 They're trying to have this kind of these mediating forces between states that allow the creation of kind of modernity as we understand it, nation states as we understand it to exist.
00:57:02.440 of course you know the the original league of nations comes out of world war one the death of
00:57:07.480 monarchies right it's woodrow wilson generally trying to make a bunch of ethno states so that
00:57:13.080 everyone can like understand themselves in this way that would sound horrendous today to the
00:57:17.460 democratic party from which woodrow wilson of course uh came but ultimately like that was the
00:57:22.980 the ideal that's what the united nations was originally or the league of nations originally
00:57:27.820 was for was to create a world in which monarchies had died and now we had to understand ourselves
00:57:33.720 in these uh in these nation states and of course the process of decolonization only encourages the
00:57:39.560 emergence of ethnostates because they don't understand how else one can organize once the
00:57:44.480 colony is gone once the colonial power is gone what are you supposed to do to remake the state
00:57:50.200 and as you pointed out with the indian partition the question the answer is well we will homogenize
00:57:54.940 the populations religiously as much as possible to create separate states that can withstand
00:58:00.380 kind of this new process when the colonial influence is gone and all that gets mediated
00:58:04.940 again through these uh supranational organizations like the united nations yeah um i mean the nation
00:58:14.200 state is is a very sort of new idea uh really um but yes the idea of course for the for the
00:58:23.240 league of nations especially um was to create peace the most hilarious um proposal by the
00:58:32.320 league of nations was that everyone would disarm except for the league of nations and every major
00:58:38.540 state was for it as long as uh their opponents disarmed first it never got off the ground for
00:58:45.000 some reason the funny thing is if you go back and read a few of curtis yarvin's essays when he was
00:58:49.840 trying to like give his complete understanding of like global governance he basically rebuilt this
00:58:54.840 system but based on technology instead it's a fascinating thing that he kind of he accidentally
00:59:00.880 reinvented exactly this process uh but he he cloaked in technology so he thought it was a very
00:59:06.200 clever uh redoing i love curtis i think he's uh very smart on other things but it was very funny
00:59:11.320 that he fell into exactly the same trap uh but just put put enough references to blockchain in
00:59:16.840 to think that he had kind of created a new and different thing
00:59:20.260 other than basically just the UN from space.
00:59:23.260 Okay, so we're nearly at the end of this.
00:59:25.440 Let's get into it.
00:59:26.600 The extension of the Europe-based state-making process
00:59:29.400 to the rest of the world, however,
00:59:30.880 did not result in the creation of states
00:59:32.680 in the strict European image.
00:59:35.080 Broadly speaking, internal struggles,
00:59:37.000 such as the checking of great regional lords
00:59:39.100 and the imposition of taxation on peasant villages,
00:59:41.760 produced important organizational features of European states,
00:59:45.420 possibly because they're very efficient, just saying,
00:59:48.040 the relative subordination of military power to civilian control,
00:59:51.460 well, of course, the extensive bureaucracy of fiscal surveillance,
00:59:54.900 again, of course, the representation of wronged interests
00:59:57.980 via petition and parliament, all of these things lower internal violence
01:00:02.220 and enable taxation extraction.
01:00:04.300 So I don't know whether he's being all sort of like the bad Europeans.
01:00:09.060 All of these are highly efficient systems.
01:00:11.500 um the on the on the whole states elsewhere developed differently the most telling feature
01:00:18.740 of that difference appears in military organization european states built up their
01:00:23.260 military apparatus through sustained struggles with their subject populations and by means of
01:00:28.220 selective extension of protection to different classes within those populations the agreements
01:00:33.120 on protection constrained the rulers themselves making them vulnerable to courts to assemblies
01:00:38.500 to withdrawals of credit services and expertise i would say it was a withdrawal of credit it's
01:00:43.600 like the real linchpin there but to a larger degree states that have come into being recently
01:00:48.640 through decolonization or through reallocations of territory by dominant states have acquired
01:00:53.620 their military organization from outside without the same internal forging of mutual constraints
01:00:58.960 between rulers and the ruled to the extent that outside states continue to supply military goods
01:01:04.540 and expertise in return for commodities, military alliance, or both, the new states harbor powerful,
01:01:10.560 unconstrained organizations that easily overshadow all other organizations within
01:01:15.200 their territories. To the extent that outside states guarantee their boundaries, the managers
01:01:20.520 of these military organizations exercise extraordinary power within them. The advantages
01:01:25.840 of military power became enormous. The incentives to seize power over the state as a whole by means
01:01:30.960 of that advantage very strong. Despite the great place that war making occupied in the making of
01:01:36.020 European states, the old national states of Europe almost never experienced the great
01:01:40.740 disproportion between military organization and all other forms of organization that seems the
01:01:45.660 fate of client states throughout the contemporary world. A century ago, Europeans might have
01:01:50.960 congratulated themselves on the spread of civil government throughout the world. In our own time,
01:01:55.820 the analogy between war making and state making on the one hand and organized crime on the other
01:02:00.360 is becoming tragically apt.
01:02:02.020 He's talking about Africa, right?
01:02:04.500 He's talking about Africa.
01:02:06.880 He is talking about the resource curse countries of Africa
01:02:12.400 and bemoans their sort of large militarization
01:02:16.240 and blames them on Whitey.
01:02:18.520 Of course he does.
01:02:20.540 What he, of course, would probably not wish to examine too closely
01:02:24.860 is whether there is some qualitative differences
01:02:27.200 between these groups of people that make large amounts
01:02:31.340 of military force the way to go.
01:02:34.580 You know, so before, for example, countries like Iraq were destroyed,
01:02:38.700 it was widely acknowledged, Egypt is like this as well,
01:02:42.300 that without a strong man, without a high degree of militarisation
01:02:46.120 in these countries, these countries simply would not function.
01:02:50.200 Obviously, because the bad white man done draw those borders,
01:02:55.000 not because of any intrinsic differences between people we are all after all completely the same
01:03:00.660 as i keep being told so well and no you're you're right that he obviously has a chip on his shoulder
01:03:08.720 he's angry at colonization he's trying to blame this for the dysfunction as if these people
01:03:13.940 wouldn't be murdering each other if no europeans had ever showed up we just they just figured out
01:03:18.960 how to you know uh throw an axe at each other the minute that uh you know europeans showed up on the
01:03:24.120 soil however there is an interesting dynamic here so for instance obviously we know uh that the uh
01:03:31.060 this is very true of the middle east right the middle east is almost entirely run by different
01:03:35.940 states you know figuring out where they got their arms from right whether they got them from the
01:03:40.380 soviet union or they got from america obviously saudi arabia would not have the position it holds
01:03:45.280 if it would not for american military influence obviously uh israel would not hold the position
01:03:49.900 that it has in the middle east if it wasn't for american military influence these are not
01:03:54.320 organic structures that were built up inside the country over time in the way that they were in
01:03:59.820 europe they were they were artificially accelerated by the presence of a third party this is something
01:04:05.000 that i really came to understand um you know i know a lot of people get angry at me for reading
01:04:09.540 this guy but uh this the reason i do is the insights are are powerful when i was reading
01:04:15.000 alexander dugan and he first floated the idea that the adoption of marxism in all these countries
01:04:21.440 that were not ripe for marxist revolution right like the whole point of the of the marxist
01:04:25.020 revolution is you have these capitalist societies that you know decay into the state that ultimately
01:04:30.460 brings about the revolution of the proletariat and blah blah blah you you need the capitalism
01:04:35.000 before you have the communism uh you know they basically expect the capitalism to create the
01:04:40.540 abundance that will make communism functional after the capitalist state has been toppled.
01:04:46.780 This episode is brought to you by Animals. How far would you go when someone threatens
01:04:52.000 everyone you love? Who can you trust? From Academy Award winner Ben Affleck,
01:04:57.100 Animals stars Affleck, Kerry Washington, Jillian Anderson, and Steven Yeun. When a Los Angeles
01:05:02.900 mayoral candidate's son is kidnapped, he and his wife are pulled into a web of deception,
01:05:08.140 forced to make choices that could tear their world apart watch animals only on netflix on october 9th
01:05:15.020 rated r the reason that didn't happen in the capitalist state but it did happen in places
01:05:19.900 like china and russia is very interesting right because those states are not in any way shape or
01:05:25.600 form what marx was describing they were not capitalist states they did not have this access
01:05:30.260 they did not go through the process so why did they adopt marxism and dugan's point was that
01:05:36.080 they adopted marxism as a way to accelerate their own internal capacity for warfare without the
01:05:42.620 interference of western powers so basically the marxism was not an adoption of a real way of life
01:05:48.240 though many of these people did then take the ideology to its logical conclusion and try to
01:05:53.460 implement it disastrously as we've seen for the deaths of many many many millions of people
01:05:58.120 through famine and other uh terrible things but the reason they took it on was because it allowed
01:06:03.880 them to centralize command and control economies, create economies of scale, and do it all without
01:06:10.740 the influence that the Western powers, especially the United States, would have otherwise wielded
01:06:17.520 if they wanted to kind of up jump somebody into this state capacity, right? And so that's what
01:06:23.020 we're seeing is that a lot of people who understood this dynamic where, you know, you have this
01:06:28.780 artificial injection of military arms and influence into a country and it basically made you beholden
01:06:35.060 to the state right this is something i go to in my book the total state about why liberal democracies
01:06:40.460 are so important to the united states well because we own them there are no independent liberal
01:06:44.720 democracies if you're a liberal democracy you're probably a satellite of the united states you're
01:06:49.200 probably a satrapy owned by us at some level because all of the institutional structures
01:06:54.640 that allow for scalable liberal democracy are also entirely bound up with the american system
01:07:01.020 if you want to do something that's not controlled by america if you want to have its own sovereignty
01:07:05.380 you need something besides the liberal democracy and this is why so many other states were willing
01:07:10.820 to engage in communism because it gave them a way to build internal capacity for war making
01:07:17.200 without leashing themselves to the ideological structures of the united states because they took
01:07:21.960 the aid they took the military weapons they took all of the things that's why the united states
01:07:26.620 makes every nato country by its weapons and its ammunition and its technology because it knows it
01:07:32.040 makes it entirely dependent on those people all of their war making capacity is simply an extension
01:07:36.160 of america's war making capacity and if you want to do anything else then you need an entirely
01:07:40.340 different system uh so while uh he you know he's he's very spiteful about the nature of uh this
01:07:46.820 dynamic and you know blames it all for the dysfunction of these areas there is some truth
01:07:51.220 to the fact that because these areas refuse to reject um you know these out these outside clients
01:07:57.860 uh as the suppliers of their were making capacity they inevitably fall into dysfunction and
01:08:03.800 disrepair because they did not go through the process they did not go through the trial of
01:08:08.720 fire necessary to forge themselves into independent actual functioning nations that has real sovereignty
01:08:14.120 I mean, Gramsci believed that the reason why communism didn't happen in capitalist industrialized states was because of the middle class and the middle class provided a sort of squishy third layer in between the lower class and the ruling class that made conflict theory much harder to execute, which is why there was a sort of determined attempt by the communists to thin out the middle class.
01:08:43.640 so as to sort of, you know, dialectically slim down a country
01:08:49.360 into only two classes of people, the poor and the rich,
01:08:52.880 which would make conflict theory and thus revolution
01:08:55.960 more of a viable prospect.
01:08:59.260 Also, the Americans did actually help the USSR like a hell of a lot.
01:09:03.620 That's true.
01:09:04.320 Grain transfers, farm machinery, entire plants.
01:09:09.120 Most of the industrial plants that the USSR wound up with
01:09:11.680 were like bought from the americans there has been debate over whether there was anything
01:09:16.800 sinister about this or whether the americans are just like hey you know you want to buy more of our
01:09:21.440 plants sure you know we'll sell them to you you know um that was very interesting read all right
01:09:28.860 yeah yeah i think it's a it makes for a good series like i said i'll turn it into a playlist
01:09:33.380 so people can watch the entire thing uh but uh you know as we said before you know definitely
01:09:38.100 don't agree with large chunks of of the document but it's a good intellectual exercise is an
01:09:43.980 interesting framing by which to explore the nature of the state and other political thinkers that we
01:09:49.980 might be more aligned with and like I said I do think that there are good insights here especially
01:09:55.880 towards the end we saw a lot more you know kind of tight explanations that have overlapping
01:10:00.800 agreements with other ideological factions not just kind of where this author is coming from
01:10:06.880 uh but yeah i think this is a good explanation a good exploration uh of kind of this frame even
01:10:12.780 if there's a large amount to disagree with uh that gets you gets you thinking about the nature
01:10:17.060 of the state its expansion uh and why we find ourselves in the position we find ourselves in
01:10:21.540 yes uh super chats i think yes okay got a few here oh well before we do super chats uh where
01:10:30.800 should people find your great work mr fist uh thank you yes i have been on vacation uh for a
01:10:36.700 but I will be resuming stuff this week.
01:10:39.480 So you can check out the next episode
01:10:40.900 of Clown-Based Lifeforms on Thursday.
01:10:42.640 You can find all of my stuff at NewsFist.
01:10:45.700 Just search for it on YouTube or www.newsfist.net.
01:10:49.300 I shouldn't say www.
01:10:50.400 That's like totally boomer-coded.
01:10:54.160 NewsFist.net.
01:10:55.060 You can find links to all of my stuff.
01:10:58.840 Yes, and Fistory will be coming back soon as well.
01:11:02.580 My history show, I'm already knocking a script together
01:11:06.020 and stuff like that should be should be good so check it out yeah you guys guys go check that out
01:11:10.480 uh you know mr fist is going to be on www uh he's going to be uploading everything on his 56k modem
01:11:17.200 the robot's screaming when he tries to to load into the internets uh he's operating his usenet
01:11:27.980 group uh you know you can you can check that out yeah that's right yeah weirdy group says uh but
01:11:34.760 guys graph goes up yes that is always so important that the graph goes up and uh the new gm says
01:11:44.500 uh good to see you again mr fist yes thank you for your support it is always fantastic to see
01:11:50.300 mr fist i appreciate him coming by for these extended series it's been very fun to discuss
01:11:56.020 either john glubb or uh you know this this idea here uh it's a good good good gentleman to dive
01:12:02.500 into deep essays with and hopefully we will find ourselves another one to start back up on here
01:12:08.020 soon hey noage good to see you mate thanks for the super chat dude all right so we're gonna go
01:12:13.560 ahead and wrap this up guys but as always thank you for coming by make sure that you check out
01:12:18.300 newsfist's work and if it's your first time on this channel you need to subscribe click the bell
01:12:22.220 notifications all that so you know when we're going live if you want to get these broadcasts
01:12:26.580 as podcasts you need to subscribe to or mcintyre show on your favorite podcast platform and when
01:12:31.160 you do leave a rating or review it really helps with the algorithm magic i was just uh i kicked
01:12:35.980 the libertarian hornet's nest here recently uh and so i have i'm now doing the appearance uh tour
01:12:42.220 i was just on dave smith's show uh so if you want to catch that conversation uh you can i'm also
01:12:47.280 going to be on uh liberty lockdown uh here soon i'm not sure when that show will come out i know
01:12:53.000 the the dave smith ones are you out but if you want to check out those discussions with libertarians
01:12:57.460 uh you can do that as well thank you for watching and as always we have a final sneaky super chat
01:13:03.000 from oh someone got in there all right hold on your super chat happy birthday if those are your
01:13:11.000 real haircuts i can't really say i don't really say uh you know is that is that even your real
01:13:18.780 hair i can neither confirm nor deny that this is a toupee right like i would not would not do that
01:13:26.000 to you all right guys uh we're gonna go ahead and wrap this up but thank you for watching and
01:13:29.720 as always i'll talk to you next time