The Auron MacIntyre Show - Skillet： Jesus in the Trenches ｜ Guest： John Cooper ｜ 10⧸5⧸26

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon. I've got a great stream with a

00:00:33.860 great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy. You guys know that I love metal music and

00:00:38.820 I especially love Christian metal music and I'm very happy to be interviewing one of the guys who

00:00:44.960 was I think in one of the more formative Christian metal bands that I ever listened to, John Cooper

00:00:51.220 of Skillet. Thank you so much for coming on man. Oh yeah, really cool to be here. I love talking

00:00:56.140 to people that that know christian metal and especially that like christian metal so that's

00:01:01.080 pretty cool yeah you know i i know there had been previous christian metal bands i'm actually a big

00:01:06.300 fan of striper got to see them live a few years ago fantastic uh but i have to say when i was

00:01:11.140 younger i was listening to a lot of contemporary christian music on christian radio all that stuff

00:01:15.260 but i always enjoyed the harder music i was hoping that i would start to see more of that kind of

00:01:20.000 thing and then i remember you know i'd heard some of your songs uh you know saturn and that kind of

00:01:24.600 and then christian radio one night real late someone uh requested i can't and i just never

00:01:31.480 heard a christian band play anything that heavy and since then i've just enjoyed your music i

00:01:36.920 remember at one point uh i was at the one i think it's rock the universe or one of those things

00:01:42.360 and my my mom was with me at the time and we were going to you know all the different contemporary

00:01:47.640 music and she enjoyed those and then i was like we have to go to skillet we have to go to skillet

00:01:51.800 And I brought her there. And she still, to this day, talks about going to that Skillet concert as if she had survived some kind of war zone, like she had made it through the trenches of World War I.

00:02:01.700 So just want you to know that to this to this day, my mother still talks about how intense your concert was even back then.

00:02:09.340 That's amazing. That's a great story. Wow. Yeah, man.

00:02:14.420 There's been a lot. There's been great Christian metal bands.

00:02:17.780 I grew up with Christian metal in the 80s, and they just didn't get this exposure.

00:02:23.960 It took a really long time to get the exposure, and I think that we were kind of on the cusp of that next generation

00:02:30.720 where we got a little bit more, and it kind of finally broke open.

00:02:35.320 And I know we're not talking about this right now, but interestingly enough, I've been hearing lots of rumors. 0.89

00:02:41.460 I can't testify to this being true or not, but there's a lot of chitter chatter as the people say, chitter chatter.

00:02:48.760 I've never used that phrase in my whole life, but there's a lot of chitter chatter on the Internet about Christian metal coming back again.

00:02:55.220 There's an underground rise of that again because rock, hard rock music in general is kind of coming back into the mainstream.

00:03:03.380 You see that on some of the pop music happening and all the rock tours are back.

00:03:07.980 and a lot of the bands from 20 years ago are doing reunion tours.

00:03:11.880 And I've heard that there's a little bit of an underground rebirth of Christian metal.

00:03:16.740 I don't know if it's true or not, but I've heard it from multiple people.

00:03:20.240 Well, that's exactly one of the things I want to get to talking with you about.

00:03:24.320 But let's start, I think, a little bit at the beginning for people

00:03:27.300 who might not be familiar with the band or how you guys got started.

00:03:31.000 Today, a lot of people know you in the mainstream.

00:03:33.720 You guys are not just a Christian metal band at this point.

00:03:35.980 you are a mainstay staple in just regular rock radio, regular metal radio. And so I think it

00:03:44.000 would be interesting if we talked a little bit, as you say, you were part of kind of the second

00:03:47.900 wave. There are these people who had began these Christian metal groups and they were getting some

00:03:54.120 attention, but it was very hard again, outside, I think probably of Striper. There wasn't a lot

00:03:58.340 of radio play even in the Christian world of this kind of music. So when you were starting the band,

00:04:04.100 were you really conscious of how much that band would stand out due to its heaviness compared to

00:04:10.720 the rest of the field? Did you get a lot of tension pushback? Did you see that as a limiting

00:04:14.580 factor when you guys were deciding what direction you wanted to go with Christian music?

00:04:20.260 Yeah, great questions. You know, when we first started, I think Skillet is a little bit of a

00:04:26.180 of a unicorn in a, in a few ways. One of those ways is that skillet, we never wanted to be

00:04:33.860 only in the Christian music audience. So sometimes we use all these labels and I think the labels are,

00:04:40.260 are helpful because people want to know what you mean, but some people have a different idea of

00:04:44.200 what Christian music is. Some people, especially in the rock world, when they hear Christian rock,

00:04:51.400 they interpret it as music rock music only that only christians listen to and and other people

00:04:59.660 might mean something different and so i never wanted to be a band that only christians listen

00:05:04.800 to so i kind of wanted i wanted to try to do both and i was told that there's no way to do both

00:05:10.360 um and i would say that's actually good advice because it's it's nearly impossible um and i just

00:05:17.520 had a vision. I just believed that people wouldn't really care. I kind of felt like maybe the

00:05:24.220 gatekeepers care. I kind of don't think that music listeners would care if there's Christian

00:05:30.040 lyrics or not, if the music was good. I saw Striper do it. It was a little bit naive of me,

00:05:34.980 but I was like, I don't think the listeners will care. They just want to rock. If it rocks,

00:05:39.080 it's good. And so we kind of set out to do it that way. So yes, there was pushback. I knew that

00:05:44.860 we didn't quite belong. I realized that from the beginning, but I was naive and young enough and

00:05:51.100 dumb enough to think that it wouldn't matter. We're just going to rock and all of a sudden 0.78

00:05:54.920 people are going to love it and it's going to get big. And it didn't, did not get big. And

00:06:00.740 it became clear pretty early on that there was really not a place in the Christian music market.

00:06:08.420 As you said, you saw us at Rock the Universe. There wasn't many events quite like that that

00:06:13.960 would have Christian contemporary and then Christian metal. Or as you said, it'd be listening

00:06:19.460 to Christian radio. Maybe if you go Saturday night from 10 to midnight or 10 to 2 a.m.,

00:06:25.180 they play the hard stuff. It's just very difficult. And so, yeah, we had a lot of that,

00:06:31.180 but I didn't really care. I just wanted to play my music. I wanted to be real. I wanted to play

00:06:36.900 music that rocked and I wanted to share my faith through my songs. That's what music was for me.

00:06:43.960 Well, and like you said, the fact is that so many people, when they lean too heavily into just the Christian market, just this identity as a Christian band, they really do pigeonhole themselves.

00:06:56.840 And it makes it difficult to have any kind of crossover. Not that ultimately crossover itself should be the only goal.

00:07:02.800 I think if you're making excellent music, you're making excellent music and you need to do kind of where, you know, go where the Lord leads you with that.

00:07:09.940 But ultimately, you guys were able to transition to a very successful mainstream music career.

00:07:17.260 I think now you show up at festivals that are just metal festivals.

00:07:21.940 They don't need to be Christian metal festivals.

00:07:23.760 You're obviously on secular radio on a regular basis, a mainstay of, I think, popular metal on radio.

00:07:32.460 So what was that transition like?

00:07:33.900 Did you find that because you were not as accepted in the Christian contemporary world, you were perhaps more primed to cross over into something more secular?

00:07:44.840 Yeah, I think this kind of goes to where I was talking about.

00:07:47.940 Just so listeners that don't know who we are, I just want to explain what I was saying when I said we're a little bit of a unicorn.

00:07:54.420 This is part of what gets confusing.

00:07:56.540 So just so they know who they're listening to here, if they care.

00:08:00.880 Um, so skillet, I would say 75% of our business is done in the rock world, uh, the metal world

00:08:10.020 playing with, uh, secular bands, however you want to use that phrase.

00:08:14.560 Um, I would say the majority of our fans are not what you would call sort of like evangelical

00:08:21.020 Sunday morning.

00:08:22.580 We go to church type, type Christian people.

00:08:25.140 They, they, they might have some sort of, uh, they might be spiritual, but not religious.

00:08:30.200 They might be sort of like religious.

00:08:32.460 I go to church a couple of times a year or they might be atheists or agnostic,

00:08:36.800 et cetera.

00:08:37.780 So at the same time as that,

00:08:40.440 I think Skillet is also kind of known as a band that is very vocal about what

00:08:47.620 we believe. We're very vocal about the faith.

00:08:49.740 So I think it's a weird juxtaposition of we're a Christian band that does most

00:08:54.420 all of our business, not in the Christian market.

00:08:56.760 and we might be even more vocal about our faith and doctrinal issues.

00:09:01.640 I'm kind of passionate about doctrine and things.

00:09:03.980 We might be a little more vocal about that than a lot of the bands

00:09:06.900 that spend 100% of the time in the Christian market.

00:09:09.800 And when I say those things, that is not meant to be critical of anybody.

00:09:13.380 I'm only saying that to say there's that juxtaposition of whose skill it is

00:09:17.740 and why that sets up for this next sentence is just to say

00:09:22.240 our transition into the mainstream world is absolutely miraculous it should not have happened

00:09:28.580 there were a million roadblocks and i just didn't think it was going to happen so we we first started

00:09:35.660 talking to atlantic records in 1998 because i wanted to cross i didn't want to just be in stuck

00:09:41.400 in the christian music world um not because i was embarrassed of christian music not at all

00:09:46.080 but because there wasn't really a place for us there and so we were desperately trying to cross

00:09:52.040 to Atlantic Records. Now, this is kind of funny. They sent someone out to see his play. And the

00:09:57.020 guy was like, I love your band. I want to come see you. I'm going to bring one of my colleagues.

00:10:02.760 And so they in the music business, this is called an A&R person, artist and repertoire. So they send

00:10:09.620 these people out. That's who signs you to major labels. So he came out again with another partner

00:10:15.320 and his partner was like, I love this band. We need to do something. The guy's like, dude,

00:10:18.960 he loves you I'm gonna call and the next thing you know he calls yeah I want to come see you

00:10:23.340 guys again I'm gonna bring my friend so-and-so and I thought it was really weird because I kept

00:10:28.180 coming out to more shows and I was so young and naive I didn't realize that what happened was is

00:10:33.880 that he really did love us but he was scared to sign a Christian band and so he was bringing all

00:10:40.020 of his colleagues out for them to say yay or nay and so I think he came out I am not exaggerating

00:10:47.020 I think he came out eight times and the final time he came out, he's like, I love your band.

00:10:53.180 I'm signing you guys. Give me a call on Monday. We're going to use so-and-so producer. We need

00:10:58.120 to add a keyboard line to this track. I'm going to get so-and-so to mix it. And I was like,

00:11:02.460 oh my gosh, it's happening. I can't believe we're going to, we're going to do an Atlantic

00:11:06.180 records deal. This is so crazy. And I called him Monday. He did not call me back. This went on for

00:11:14.280 about two months and finally i get in touch and he's basically like hey uh i love your band i

00:11:21.660 can't sign a christian artist i i will get i will get reamed i'll lose my job i can't do it

00:11:26.540 and i was devastated i was even more devastated 10 months later when atlantic records signed pod

00:11:33.140 also a christian metal band right i was i was like what i i couldn't believe it and they're

00:11:40.320 like well but they're heavier and this that the other and i was i was devastated and so that was

00:11:45.180 in 1998 uh long story short in 2003 through a very very long long process we ended up getting

00:11:54.500 signed by lava records lava was a smaller boutique label through atlantic and i remember saying to

00:12:03.820 Atlantic, I was like, yeah, you got, you got, you know, it's actually funny. I was meeting with

00:12:08.320 a guy called Jason Flom, who's a very famous music executive. He was the, the, the head guy

00:12:16.180 at Lava Records. And the day we were, he would, they were deciding to sign us or not. And he goes,

00:12:23.080 he's like, okay, so let's talk about the elephant in the room. Why in the world should I sign a

00:12:29.360 christian band what does that even mean and this is the label that had signed kid rock and matchbox

00:12:36.260 20 and and i said to him at the time there was an artist on through their label who was on tour and

00:12:43.760 they had to cancel the rest of their tour because he got arrested for drugs again and i said well

00:12:49.880 i guess my best answer for why you should sign a christian band is this we will never have to

00:12:55.200 cancel a tour because we got arrested for anything we will always show up on time um i will never

00:13:03.780 back out of a deal i will never treat people poorly because i'm not just representing myself

00:13:09.080 i'm representing god and that's more important to me than my bottom line and he said fair enough

00:13:14.980 and we signed the deal so obviously you know you saw all of this kind of well frankly bigotry

00:13:22.820 towards christians when it came to trying to sign they obviously saw your talent they knew

00:13:27.760 of the opportunity available but just that fact just the idea of christianity was so forbidden so

00:13:35.320 taboo that even as you say with all of those upsides of you guys not having to worry about

00:13:40.500 you know selling all the gear for heroin before a deal or anything like ultimately the fact that

00:13:45.520 you guys had all that was still a stumbling block for them now once you're signed and you're in this

00:13:51.320 kind of you know this ecosystem of metal obviously there are many metal groups metal fans who are

00:13:59.980 going to be resistant to your message like you said you're out there and even though your audience

00:14:04.240 is not predominantly Christian you guys are not being shy about this you're being very clear about

00:14:08.260 your motivations your intentions your beliefs these kind of things did you see pushback with

00:14:12.920 venues did you see pushback with crowds did you find it difficult to kind of battle for acceptance

00:14:18.200 in that environment? What was that like? Yeah, you know, I think the first way I would want to

00:14:23.900 answer is to say all the incredible positive things, because there really are. And I think

00:14:29.320 it's worth bragging on people who are of goodwill. And Lava was great to us. And after Lava, after

00:14:38.240 that, we did only one record with Lava. It did not sell well. And I thought we were going to get

00:14:45.220 kicked off the label. And there was all this shakeup happening. And it ended up, I had heard

00:14:51.440 word. We were supposed to be recording a new record and nobody was calling me back. And I was

00:14:55.660 like, they're going to get rid of us. And then I heard, oh my gosh, lava is kind of going away.

00:15:00.160 I hear they're firing everybody at lava, getting rid of 90% of their roster. It's over. I'm

00:15:05.980 definitely going to get canned. And my A&R guys, a guy called Andy Karp. Andy was always amazing to

00:15:12.660 us, never treated me in any sort of a prejudice way or any sort of, uh, what have you, he never

00:15:20.740 treated me like any differently. He was a brilliant guy, very lovely man. And, um, he called me and

00:15:28.260 he said, I don't know if you've heard what's happening. And I was ready for him to say you're

00:15:31.380 canned. I'm sorry. I, you know, I'm canned too. I thought he was going to say, he told me what

00:15:36.300 was going on and he said just so you know um we're losing 95 of our staff is is gone he said um

00:15:46.680 nearly all of the roster is gone and he said however i have actually been promoted to the

00:15:52.940 head of a&r at atlantic and i told them the one thing i want is to bring your band to atlantic

00:16:00.000 with me and i said are you serious why i actually asked him why i was like why i felt bad like

00:16:07.920 we're nobody choose a better band than skillet i was like why uh he's like i love your band you're

00:16:15.380 my band and i i thought maybe he was kind of like blowing smoke a little bit even though he's not

00:16:20.540 that kind of guy but i just found it hard to believe but he did and so we were on atlantic

00:16:25.080 records for 20 years. They treated us beautifully. Amazing people there. I never felt that they were

00:16:32.560 treating me as less. Nobody ever called me and said, John, don't talk about that. Don't sing

00:16:38.480 that lyric. It really wasn't like that. And so I just kind of want to give credit where credit is

00:16:43.600 due. And even more than that, the bands that we toured with were extremely accepting of us. In

00:16:51.140 fact, every time we tour with a band, I made it my mission to never start the tour and bring God 0.95

00:16:57.100 up because I knew they knew we were a Christian band and I didn't want to be that Christian band

00:17:02.100 that they're like, oh God, this guy's preaching to me all the time. Why did we bring them on the

00:17:06.440 road? And I just said, I'm going to live the life by the grace of God. I'm going to try to be a

00:17:12.240 light. And if they want to talk to me about God, I will, but I'm just going to try to be the light

00:17:18.060 of Christ the best I can. And every tour, somebody in the band would say, hey, can we talk about

00:17:24.160 Jesus? And every single band we toured with has somebody that was either a Christian whose parent

00:17:30.640 dad was a pastor or a worship pastor or grew up and playing in a worship team at their church 0.95

00:17:35.840 or is a backslidden Christian and wants to know how to get back to the faith. It was amazing. So

00:17:40.980 even bands like this, well, I won't even mention the names as soon as I'm being critical, but

00:17:46.700 Sometimes people, they assume that a certain artist would be very against Christianity.

00:17:51.800 I found 95% of the bands to be very open.

00:17:55.820 Now the bad side.

00:17:57.520 Yes, there are people in that market that just think that Christianity does not belong in rock and roll.

00:18:04.840 They don't like it.

00:18:06.500 They believe sex, drugs, rock and roll is their mantra.

00:18:10.140 And Christianity has nothing to do with that.

00:18:13.440 And yes, there has been times that certainly that we have not gotten tours because of that.

00:18:21.580 But that's just par for the course for me.

00:18:23.560 So it doesn't make me mad.

00:18:25.220 I'm not a victim.

00:18:26.400 I'm a victor through the power, through the cross of Christ, of course.

00:18:30.480 So I don't look at it that way.

00:18:32.980 But certainly in the industry, there are people that just did not like us.

00:18:36.960 and um i think that's easily proven like for the fact that like our 2006 release which was our

00:18:44.160 first atlantic project uh called comatose i mean comatose ended up becoming a platinum record it

00:18:50.940 probably will become a double platinum record in the next five years um and we never had a single

00:18:56.880 radio hit from it radio wouldn't play the record and it still sold a million records because there

00:19:01.520 was such an underground uh an underground push for the album people loved it bands loved it we

00:19:08.380 went on tour with uh three days grace and breaking benjamin and seether i mean these were these were

00:19:14.660 arena selling artists who brought us on tour they loved the record but we still didn't get radio

00:19:20.100 play the next record was our biggest which we released a song called monster um but even monster

00:19:26.940 never hit number one at rock radio um and it is you know one of the highest streaming um modern

00:19:34.780 rock songs of all time that never hit number one at rock radio just people that just really hate

00:19:40.480 they didn't want to play a christian band um not all of them most of them supported us but there

00:19:45.420 is a handful and so we just kept doing our thing i just kept saying this was never about getting

00:19:51.180 famous and jesus said don't be surprised when people don't like you they don't like me either

00:19:56.500 well and you know the fact that you no longer have so much of a captive audience when it comes

00:20:04.160 to rock radio as you're saying now that streaming and everything else there's a lot of downsides

00:20:08.140 for bands due to streaming and this kind of thing that also allows a level of discoverability that

00:20:12.280 just did not exist previously and so even if you guys never have that number one rock radio song

00:20:17.960 as you say it can still be a massive hit when it comes to the general rock population that's a

00:20:23.360 fantastic thing for you and one of the things i've noticed uh maybe it's just because i really

00:20:27.860 enjoy a lot of these 80s metal bands as well uh but we've seen a lot of guys finding christ i mean

00:20:34.240 obviously alice cooper has been a born again christian for a long time but guys like dave

00:20:38.420 mustaine uh you know uh bucky lawless of wasp i mean come on who would have expected to see wasp

00:20:44.240 recording you know christian music albums their last couple albums uh i've even heard uh rumors

00:20:50.920 that uh rob halford of judas priest is kind of on that path i don't know how true that is but it

00:20:56.260 does seem like there is a moment where for a lot of these legacy bands you kind of recognize well

00:21:02.420 it's either christ or kind of kill yourself with drugs right like they seem to hit like this this

00:21:06.620 moment where uh if you're going to continue in that business and avoid the lifestyle that seems

00:21:11.920 to impact so many people some you know something like christianity is really the only thing that's

00:21:16.800 going to be a guard against that a hedge against those temptations yeah it's i mean really it

00:21:23.240 cannot be exaggerated and i don't want to be um i don't want to be i'm not saying revival i'm not

00:21:30.120 i'm not saying that it's bigger than it is but it's it's real um you know before the last few

00:21:37.700 years, I knew of a few, literally a few, meaning two or three rock stars, um, who kind of came to

00:21:46.820 Jesus. And in the last four years, I know 10, that's a massive deal. Um, there is something

00:21:53.880 happening. Of course it's happening all over the country anyway. I think 2020, obviously our,

00:21:58.900 our culture's changed. That's a whole nother conversation. I think part of my philosophy,

00:22:03.040 Maybe I'll just share a little bit of my philosophy and not everybody's going to agree with it.

00:22:07.800 And that's totally fine with me.

00:22:08.920 It doesn't matter. 0.70

00:22:09.860 Some Christians don't like this, but I don't care. 0.58

00:22:13.740 It's my philosophy.

00:22:15.600 I think that music is just powerful.

00:22:18.280 Music is inherently powerful.

00:22:20.420 Everybody tends to agree with that all over the world.

00:22:23.480 My atheist friends agree with that.

00:22:25.100 My atheist friends would even say, okay, I don't believe in God, but there is something supernatural about music.

00:22:30.940 and i usually say okay now let's let's put that together why is that can there could there be a

00:22:38.300 reason for that or is it just some the universe you know and at that point you're kind of saying

00:22:44.100 you might believe in something and that's worth a discussion don't you think i think that what

00:22:50.280 happened was this rock and roll got this uh this motto sex drugs rock and roll but that's not

00:22:58.200 really what rock music was actually about. That was the hijacking, in my opinion. And we see this

00:23:05.480 because the roots of rock and roll is actually gospel music, blues, lots of people who either

00:23:12.360 were Christians or were raised in a Christian setting, right? Ray Charles, Johnny Cash, Elvis.

00:23:19.360 And again, not going down the path of who is a Christian, who wasn't, but we're singing gospel

00:23:25.420 songs, singing hymns. Pentecostalism kind of goes in this as well. A lot of these kind of things

00:23:32.540 actually is the roots of music. And music was meant to be something where people were singing

00:23:41.160 about something they believed in. Yes, that got a little hijacked, especially because of the

00:23:47.300 sexual revolution and all the various things in the 50s and 60s of post-World War II. And so all

00:23:53.420 of a sudden you begin to see revolutionaries using music in a very specific way and but that

00:24:01.860 doesn't mean that that's what rock music is about and so i always believed that listeners aren't

00:24:08.420 going to care if i'm singing about god because that's the same thing that artists did in the

00:24:12.120 50s and 60s and 70s there's lots of 70s rock bands that were singing about uh god i'm not saying

00:24:18.820 they're specifically christian songs but you whether it's kansas and and a lot of those kinds

00:24:23.340 of bands which is why it's not surprising that a lot of those bands have members who became

00:24:27.820 born again christians like carrie livegreen of kansas and rick wakeman from yes that was very

00:24:33.740 spiritual music and so skillet was just saying i want to sing spiritual music because music is not

00:24:40.280 about sex and drugs it's powerful it's supernatural and you can say something that could change the

00:24:47.500 world it could change someone's life it's a it's a vehicle that's my philosophy and so what i think

00:24:53.000 we're seeing now when skillet first came out i do think the rock world was a little bit like

00:24:59.560 uh you guys don't belong here by the time 2009 and 10 hit the tables started turning and all

00:25:08.140 of a sudden and i'm not bragging on skillet by any means nobody's more shocked than i am that

00:25:13.000 we're still a band and that god has blessed us like this because i never thought we were that

00:25:16.980 good. But God has just blessed us. But by 2010, 11, 12, you started seeing a lot of secular bands

00:25:24.120 copying what we were doing. And that might sound arrogant. I don't mean arrogant, but let me

00:25:29.780 explain it. And I think people will see that there might be some truth to it. And in the year 2003,

00:25:35.840 when we quote unquote went mainstream, we were kind of snubbed for having girls in the band.

00:25:41.840 People thought that girls didn't belong in rock music. We were snubbed because we sung songs that

00:25:46.700 were positive people i remember a radio station saying you're just too positive it's like an

00:25:51.940 after school special that that's not what rock is about and you're it's just too happy the lyrics

00:25:58.280 are too positive and they didn't like that they didn't like the spiritualism of it by 2012 and

00:26:04.540 13 you're it's the middle of girl power all of a sudden rock bands start having girls and you

00:26:10.520 start seeing the rise of girl fronted metal bands like hellstorm and bands like that um you started

00:26:16.540 seeing bands like pop evil got a girl drummer in their band you began to see bands singing about

00:26:23.940 very positive things and saying we just want to be a band that's about positivity and i was like hey

00:26:30.060 we've been doing that for a really long time and we used to be made fun of it the table started to

00:26:35.300 turn and i think by the time 2020 hit the world collapsed people started looking for something

00:26:41.780 that's real and something that lasts. And all of a sudden you're seeing a lot of rock and rollers

00:26:47.240 realize nihilism doesn't work. Nihilism is depressing. Tyranny doesn't work. It's horrible.

00:26:56.700 Yelling at people on social media doesn't work. Nothing's going to work. There has to be more

00:27:03.200 and then enter in the gospel of Christ. That's how I see it.

00:27:09.000 you know i wanted to ask you because my buddy uh philibonte is the singer of all that remains

00:27:15.600 and you know one of the more formational bands of metalcore and he always says that at some point

00:27:22.320 it became clear that when you were looking at new metalcore band you just kind of assumed they

00:27:26.980 were christian like there was all of a sudden this explosion of christian bands especially in

00:27:31.840 the metalcore genre to the point where they dominated for a long time and i just am wondering

00:27:37.740 what you thought about that almost where you know at first you had i think some very sincere christian

00:27:43.980 you know christians getting started there but the point where it almost became fashionable to be a

00:27:48.700 christian metalcore band at that moment and we kind of saw some bands even burn out and step away

00:27:55.160 from the christian message uh obviously you had you know one controversy with one guy hiring a

00:27:59.920 hitman for his wife so uh you know some very non-christian behavior in some of those bands

00:28:03.920 uh but uh there there's obviously was i think this moment where it was actually more expected

00:28:10.000 that you would be christian in a metal space than you would not and i think it's a very interesting

00:28:14.560 inversion uh of as you're saying you know kind of that moment where it was very uh you know

00:28:19.440 considered strange and uh hard to move through as a christian band and then it became almost

00:28:24.700 mandatory in some spaces for a moment i don't think anybody's ever asked me this in an interview

00:28:31.380 and i am so i'm i'm beyond thrilled i really really am i talked about this in a documentary

00:28:39.280 interview that i did and i can't say it too many places because if you don't know that it's true

00:28:46.280 you don't believe that it's true and it sounds like i'm it sounds like like what you just said

00:28:51.280 sounds like a conspiracy theory to most everybody out there but it's 100 accurate i just did a

00:29:00.220 documentary interview with chris jericho uh you know chris jericho is he's a wrestler um chris

00:29:08.180 jericho funny enough is the biggest christian metal fan i've ever met uh i i was like you

00:29:16.540 listen to christian metal he's like i he's like i believe christian metal and he knows everything

00:29:22.320 thing about early 80s Christian metal. He's doing a documentary on Christian metal from 1981 to 93

00:29:30.740 or something like crazy like that, which blew me away. And I was saying this to him. I was saying

00:29:37.040 the crazy thing is like, it was the underground factor of the 80s Christian metal. And he was

00:29:44.260 saying this, he's like, oh yeah, we all were sharing tapes. It was like, it was like the cool

00:29:48.560 kid thing to do in certain, not everywhere, obviously, but in certain clicks and certain

00:29:55.580 streams, it was the cool thing to do because you already had things like Headbangers Ball was on

00:30:02.120 MTV. So you could find out the new cool metal bands on Headbangers Ball. But so now you need

00:30:08.020 something more underground than that. And so you have these Christian metal chains. And so something 0.66

00:30:15.340 really interesting happened in the 90s with a late there's a christian label called tooth and nail

00:30:20.100 tooth and nail starts up and they're even more indie and they're on the west coast which means

00:30:25.580 they're kind of cool and so now there's all these underground christian i don't know what you want

00:30:31.680 to call tooth and nail some of them were metal some were punk mxpx was a was a pretty big band

00:30:37.140 of that era that a lot of uh a lot of non-christian people listen to because it was underground and it

00:30:42.960 was cool then something flipped i i don't know if i'm if i'm right about this i'm not so good on the

00:30:50.340 history but i'm wondering how much tooth and nail had to do with that underground hardcore scene

00:30:56.760 that you're referring to when i would say kind of like the early 2000s though that kind of hardcore

00:31:03.500 christian band came in um but i would imagine they did because they had all these really heavy

00:31:08.880 heavy bands um like uh six feet deep and stuff like that yeah like seven dust came after them

00:31:15.900 right yeah i'm not sure i'm not sure where seven dust may is in that picture or not yeah um but

00:31:23.800 but there's a lot of bands and so i would say late 90s there starts to be this underground

00:31:30.140 hardcore scene and a lot of them kind of sounded like they might have been christians maybe we

00:31:36.380 weren't sure exactly and you started seeing all their t-shirts and hot topic that's why i remember

00:31:42.120 because all the young people was like the hot topic you'd go in and find the new cool underground

00:31:47.040 band all of them seemed kind of christian adjacent yeah so you had as i lay dying as you mentioned

00:31:54.400 or you referred to earlier as i lay dying and uh uh under oath and it was like all these bands

00:32:04.000 and uh it was a very interesting component because i i personally feel like that those

00:32:11.260 bands were sort of like the newer younger version of like speed like thrash you know to where you

00:32:20.360 had like metallica doing speed metal and like the big the fast guitar solos and whatnot and then all

00:32:26.700 of a sudden you had this new younger thing that was a bit more like growly and screamy but they

00:32:31.960 still had some of the double kick and the metal and it was something that young people were relating

00:32:36.780 to and to me that was the birth of what a lot of us remember called screamo the used and all those

00:32:44.020 kinds of bands i think the christian music was extremely formative and what became that whole

00:32:50.720 genre of music and about five years ago you started seeing that style of music

00:32:55.720 kind of rebranded and coming back in style now bands like asking alexandria and falling in

00:33:03.640 reverse a lot of those bands have a lot of those elements and i personally think the christian

00:33:08.780 music had a big part to play in that but nobody would believe us except for me and you and chris

00:33:14.940 apparently well i mean what like wolves at the gates is one of the best metalcore bands out there

00:33:19.980 right now i still love war of ages that kind of stuff like these guys are still you know uh i

00:33:25.200 I think putting out amazing stuff.

00:33:27.400 But I want to ask you about the longevity of that, though, because as I was saying, obviously, you know, some more than others.

00:33:33.280 But many of these bands fall away.

00:33:35.120 They burn out.

00:33:35.920 A lot of it has to do, I think, with the expectations, as you said, of some in the church or some in the Christian music scene.

00:33:43.100 You know, why are you not writing every song about Jesus or why did you discuss this difficult topic?

00:33:48.340 Or, you know, why are you involved with all of these, you know, secular tours and going to these places where people are drinking or doing drugs?

00:33:56.060 Like there's this constant kind of attack on, I think, people who present themselves as Christian in music from the Christian community itself, which is exactly the opposite of what you would think.

00:34:06.240 You'd think they would embrace the fact that these people are getting that message out, you know, that Christ didn't just only talk to, you know, the Pharisees, that he obviously had other people he needed to minister to.

00:34:16.540 But that does seem to really burn people out, I think, in the long run who end up in that part of the industry.

00:34:23.380 So how do you guys continue to kind of do what you're doing and not develop any kind of resentment or bitterness when people kind of bring those objections or those criticisms from inside the Christian community? 0.53

00:34:34.760 Yeah, really good question.

00:34:37.000 And I hate I'm not going to filibuster.

00:34:39.120 I am going to answer you.

00:34:40.180 I promise.

00:34:41.460 I hate to be Mr. like holding everything in tension, but I've just found if I don't give all the sides, somebody is going to say that I said something I didn't mean.

00:34:51.540 And let me just give all the sides. Yes, it can be really frustrating that Christians don't understand Christian music and what we do.

00:35:01.700 And I find a lot of the times I just go, yeah, I don't know why you don't understand.

00:35:05.820 I feel like they can be kind of pharisaical in that in that way, personally.

00:35:10.620 Before I get to that, let me give a few different aspects, if I may.

00:35:17.800 One aspect is this.

00:35:19.180 As a Christian music fan, so you're a Christian music fan, I am too.

00:35:23.260 There was a fatigue that happened with people like me growing up to listen to Christian music.

00:35:30.040 I so desperately wanted my friends.

00:35:34.240 I wanted them to think that Christian music was cool.

00:35:37.340 I really, really did.

00:35:38.940 and and i think most christian music fans know what i mean they want people to know that hey

00:35:43.180 if you like iron maiden you might actually like baron cross you might like striper you might like

00:35:49.340 they're actually really good and it might actually uplift you because some of the things you're

00:35:55.580 listening to might not uh they might not uplift you it might you know you might want to try it

00:36:01.900 and so a lot of us christian music fans we supported christian bands and when they crossed

00:36:07.580 over, we were so happy. And for a lot of them, it was only five minutes after they crossed over

00:36:14.880 that they suddenly got amnesia and forgot they were Christians and they did not have our backs 0.86

00:36:20.820 and we feel that they let us down. Maybe that's not fair, but as a Christian music fan,

00:36:27.460 I felt that way about some of my, my bands that quote unquote crossed over.

00:36:32.680 um there's a band that i won't mention their name but there's a band for instance that started out

00:36:41.360 in the christian market uh my manager reached out to their managers about 10 years ago and said hey

00:36:47.240 what do you think about skillet and your band doing a co-headline i think it'd be great um

00:36:53.120 you know they haven't seen each other in about you know 10 years um but we you know they met

00:36:58.120 back when you guys were doing some of the Christian music festivals. And the manager said,

00:37:02.780 let me stop you there. We were never a Christian band. We were never doing Christian music

00:37:08.260 festivals. The band has never confessed that. So don't make up rumors. And my manager's like,

00:37:13.980 oh no, I mean like years ago when the guys would have met. And he said, there's no such time that

00:37:20.660 my band was ever doing Christian music festivals. Some of these bands ran away from Christian music,

00:37:27.600 the Christian title so fast. And that really hurts Christian music fans. And so what that can do

00:37:34.560 is it makes them very cynical when they see Skillet all of a sudden doing a tour with Three

00:37:41.700 Days Grace, Skillet going into a club and they're like, oh no, they're going to do it too. And then

00:37:47.300 they become very, very believing the worst, you know? So I guess I want to say to the Christian 1.00

00:37:52.940 music fans that know what I'm talking about. I feel you. That can be a real thing. The second

00:37:58.200 thing that's real is that some of the bands who did start out as Christian, they, they not only

00:38:06.520 deconstructed their faith, but they became blatant, loud enemies against Jesus. And it became kind of

00:38:13.500 quite offensive for a lot of people. And all of a sudden their fans started getting really upset

00:38:18.840 about it you know and i do understand where some of that comes from the third caveat i would just

00:38:24.320 give because it was kind of becoming cool to sign with a one of these christian labels that was

00:38:32.080 very underground i do think it's fair to say that for a lot of the musicians that sign these

00:38:39.800 contracts they were not aware that they had to be a christian to do this in other words i do think

00:38:46.940 I want to be fair to those musicians that probably never were Christians and

00:38:50.600 saying, I don't think they really understood this meant you're now

00:38:53.940 representing Christ. I think they're like, well,

00:38:56.240 it's just a Christian label and Christianity.

00:38:58.080 They want us to be nice to people and we're cool. And,

00:39:00.040 and it's a chance to do my music. And so for them,

00:39:04.020 they felt it was unfair for Christian music fans to hold them up to some

00:39:08.140 standard that they never said. It's kind of convoluted.

00:39:11.620 And I totally get that. And then I would say to your point, yeah, I do.

00:39:16.260 it is very frustrating to see christians go because you sound a certain way it's from the devil

00:39:23.580 because well you guys just yeah you guys just had a controversy because you had the come out

00:39:30.220 coming manual and there was like a breakdown in it and all of a sudden people lost their minds

00:39:34.480 you know it's they're desecrating the hymns it's over you know it just seems so ridiculous but it

00:39:40.040 is you know and i i do think that there's something to say i you know i remember if i remember correctly

00:39:45.880 I don't want to put words in Striper's mouth, but if I remember years and years and years ago,

00:39:50.440 I love Striper and I respect them greatly. Michael Sweet's a friend of mine. I just remember hearing

00:39:56.340 them say in some interviews that it was the backlash from Christians about their sound

00:40:03.140 and about the way they looked and about their crazy eighties hair. That was awesome. I'm sorry. 0.57

00:40:09.340 it was awesome um it was that that kind of made them embittered and and kind of made them i don't

00:40:17.620 want to put words in his mouth but what almost like it it hurt them and i think it changed the

00:40:22.420 trajectory of what they were doing when when i think from everything i can tell i think striper

00:40:27.740 was a very is still a very genuine a band that loves jesus and really did want to tell people

00:40:35.920 about Jesus it was not fake it was real and I do think that happens for some of these bands

00:40:41.660 that amount of criticism with people telling you you're from the devil because the way you dress

00:40:46.380 you're from the devil because the way you growl you're from the devil because the sound

00:40:50.980 or the imagery of something is so um it doesn't bother me because I grew up with it and so I just

00:40:58.000 ignore them but for people that aren't used to it it's an assault they feel that it's an assault

00:41:03.740 on them. And it does tear them down and it makes them want to, it doesn't make them want to be

00:41:10.720 open for a conversation. It hurts them. It makes them think this is the worst that Christianity

00:41:15.320 has to offer. And if that's what Christians are like, I'm not so sure I want to be here. 1.00

00:41:20.780 I'm being judged because I'm playing in a bar. Are you serious? I read the Bible and it seems 1.00

00:41:27.040 that Jesus had no issue having dinner 0.98

00:41:30.140 with a tax collector and shady women

00:41:33.420 and all sorts of the most hated sinners on earth, 0.98

00:41:36.560 Jesus would be,

00:41:37.760 wasn't just that he had dinner,

00:41:40.160 he seemed to befriend them.

00:41:42.940 And it doesn't seem that they felt like Jesus hated them.

00:41:47.720 It kind of seemed like Jesus loved them

00:41:49.680 and that they believed it.

00:41:51.300 Even if he said hard things,

00:41:53.120 remember the rich young ruler,

00:41:56.640 The Bible says Jesus said what he said.

00:41:59.700 The rich young ruler went away.

00:42:00.980 And the Bible says that Jesus loved him.

00:42:03.880 He had compassion towards him.

00:42:06.240 Man, a lot of these young bands, man, they see this stuff that these Christian people say.

00:42:11.180 And they go, you know what? 1.00

00:42:13.140 Maybe the atheists are right. 0.99

00:42:15.080 Maybe Christians are just hate-filled people. 0.99

00:42:18.940 And that's a real shame. 0.98

00:42:21.460 So this has been a great conversation.

00:42:23.860 but we've got to wrap things up and before we go i couldn't let you leave before we talk a little

00:42:29.600 bit about the album you have coming out so you guys have a new album uh that uh will be coming

00:42:34.820 out i believe in october uh this we're pre-recording this guys so uh if i'm making these references in

00:42:41.120 the in the future it's because uh we are in the past a little bit when we're talking about this

00:42:45.460 but can you tell people a little bit about the new album what's the direction you know how do you

00:42:49.760 guys uh see you know this release growing you and uh kind of where do you want to take the band with

00:42:55.260 this uh new album yeah absolutely uh hey me and you are never in the past we're always in the

00:43:02.340 future brother that's right that's uh go into the future um well thank you i really do appreciate

00:43:08.020 you having me and and uh your knowledge of christian music's really fun so thank you for

00:43:12.700 bringing up so much good stuff i really enjoyed it um the new record is called after the storm

00:43:19.540 The single's called Scream.

00:43:21.800 And some of the fundies out there that really got mad at our last project,

00:43:27.440 they're really going to hate this one.

00:43:30.220 The fundamentalists are not going to like it because it's heavy.

00:43:34.460 Now, it's not as heavy as a lot of the music that you're saying you listen to.

00:43:38.140 You listen to quite heavy music, which I can appreciate.

00:43:41.600 This is a little bit more, you know, skill is not quite as heavy as that.

00:43:45.020 But this one is a little bit more intense,

00:43:46.960 And that is because of of what I've been through the last couple of years.

00:43:51.560 It's also about because of what we've been through in our in our culture. 0.90

00:43:57.360 The 2020s has just kind of sucked.

00:44:00.540 I mean, this has been a hard decade.

00:44:03.040 I never thought that we would experience something like this.

00:44:06.180 And it's very difficult.

00:44:08.140 You know what I really hate to see is so many people losing family and friends over everything that's happened in the 2020s.

00:44:20.700 And the yelling, the constant, yeah, sometimes I look at, I hardly ever look at social media.

00:44:26.540 But if I do see a comment, if somebody's like, oh, did you see the whatever, and I go and check the comment.

00:44:30.800 And I sometimes think, are people actually sitting at home trying to be to think of the rudest, most hateful thing they could ever possibly say to somebody?

00:44:43.240 And it just doesn't do good for your soul.

00:44:46.480 It hurts people.

00:44:48.020 It's hateful.

00:44:48.800 I really hate it so much.

00:44:50.980 And I wanted to write a record that is kind of speaking to that moment.

00:44:54.660 It's why we one of the reasons we have the highest rates of depression in American history, highest rates of teen suicide.

00:45:02.120 We could go through all those numbers. You know, I'm better than me.

00:45:05.600 Something is wrong. You know, you were saying earlier, there's a lot of Christian. 1.00

00:45:09.080 I'm sorry. There's a lot of rock and rollers becoming Christians.

00:45:12.280 Yeah, something is wrong and people know it. 0.96

00:45:15.960 And they in the 2020s, a lot of people went, oh, I see.

00:45:19.500 You know, we're being lied to all the time and we can't trust anybody.

00:45:22.840 nothing is real you can't trust the science you can't trust the institutions you can't trust the

00:45:27.780 media you can't trust and by the end of the day people are like well what we've got to have

00:45:32.560 something better than this and you just see all this rise of anxiety and suicidal thoughts and

00:45:38.820 hatred and loneliness people are freaking out and i wanted to write a song and an album that spoke

00:45:46.940 to that moment that touched into that anger because I felt it myself, the nihilism. And

00:45:54.540 I'll just say this on a personal note, the last couple of years, and I'm going to be kind of vague

00:46:01.400 about it because I'm not ready to talk about it yet. But I have suffered a lot the last couple

00:46:08.820 of years in a way that I haven't since I was a teenager. And I won't get into my story, but my

00:46:15.640 teen years is when I, I really, really found Jesus. My mom died when I was 15 fighting with

00:46:23.420 my dad, et cetera. The amount of anger I had and God saved me from it. I have not dealt with it

00:46:30.580 since then. And these forces came back into my life through a very difficult two years

00:46:37.740 of being in a situation, mainly in a church, I would say, a very kind of high control situation

00:46:47.180 that became so bad and so abusive and the lies and the betrayal and the slandering

00:46:56.280 of 30 years of family and community and loving church relationship.

00:47:03.380 and it took a a toll on my mental health in a way i i never thought possible and i'm i i don't want

00:47:13.680 to say something to to to sound like i'm a victim not a victim saved by grace and god has pulled me

00:47:20.020 out of it but it took me a solid two years and there were times when i did not know if i was

00:47:24.980 going to make it out of this these songs are written from that place and they're written in

00:47:31.940 a way that the listener of course can interpret it to whatever it is that you're going through

00:47:37.480 whatever it is that makes you want to scream whatever it is that makes you like I feel like

00:47:42.860 I'm taking crazy pills and I feel like somebody's trying to control my life and everything is a lie

00:47:48.700 and nothing is ever going to be okay again and I don't know how I'm going to make it

00:47:53.040 and I am reaching out to God saying God I need you to pull me out of this that is the heart and

00:47:59.440 And anybody that listens to Scream, knowing the story, it'll make sense to you.

00:48:05.360 So that's what the album's about.

00:48:07.440 And maybe I'll say this one last thing so people don't go, oh, my gosh, that's so heavy.

00:48:12.220 Great news.

00:48:14.000 God has pulled me out.

00:48:15.780 Once more, he showed himself faithful.

00:48:18.100 I am doing very, very well and not a victim.

00:48:22.480 I'm a victor, and I am so thankful to him.

00:48:25.680 But it was a dogfight.

00:48:29.440 Um, during the thick of it, I would wake up in the morning, I would pray and I would set

00:48:36.040 my alarm for 59 minutes.

00:48:39.000 And I did that all day long, uh, every hour, my alarm goes off and I would have to pray.

00:48:46.180 I had set prayers that would pray through the day.

00:48:49.140 And I would just be, I would be like, God, I just need you to help me make it through

00:48:53.840 the hour.

00:48:55.400 If I can make it through the hour, I'll be okay, and then we'll do it for the next hour.

00:49:00.800 And after a couple of months, the power of God changed me.

00:49:05.240 He is always faithful.

00:49:06.560 So anybody out there listening, if you're going through addiction or depression,

00:49:09.640 whatever your situation is, I can promise you he will show himself faithful.

00:49:14.320 He will not leave you alone.

00:49:15.620 He is close to the brokenhearted, but it might be a dogfight.

00:49:19.440 It was for me.

00:49:20.840 But I made it through, and that's what this record is about.

00:49:24.080 I hope it helps other people get through.

00:49:26.240 Well, and I think that's so important, because like you said, you've talked about the positivity of your music.

00:49:30.720 You've talked about how some people are critical about how positive it is.

00:49:34.020 But it's important for people to understand that even in those positive moments, it's not like you're not struggling.

00:49:39.200 It's not like you're not facing issues.

00:49:41.380 There is nothing in the Bible that promises us a life of ease as followers of Christ.

00:49:45.980 And so I don't think it does anyone any service to pretend that Christians just have this complete, perfect answer once they've accepted.

00:49:54.080 uh jesus and that ultimately like life is just smooth sailing from then like no life is still

00:49:59.120 tragic life is still difficult but that's what also brings us so much closer to god i've been

00:50:05.380 through some incredibly difficult moments in my life and christ i simply would not be here there's

00:50:11.280 no other explanation as to why i'm still walking around on this earth and so i think it's really

00:50:15.860 important that even though we stay positive and we bring that message to people they also know that

00:50:20.500 this is not just easy mode it's not just a setting that you hit and then christians just

00:50:24.520 cruise on through life that it's okay as a christian to face those moments of struggle

00:50:28.600 and to overcome them and so i really encourage people to to go listen to the album it'll be out

00:50:33.540 once you're hearing this guys i have screams a fantastic single so make sure that you go listen

00:50:38.080 to it john it's been fast uh fantastic speaking with you and if it's your first time on this

00:50:43.460 channel guys need to click subscribe like the bell notifications all that stuff so you know

00:50:48.280 when these streams go live remember we aren't live today so unfortunately we can't answer

00:50:52.060 any of the audience questions and if you want to get these broadcasts as podcasts you need to

00:50:56.520 subscribe to the oren mcintyre show on your favorite podcast platform thank you everybody

00:51:00.180 for watching and as always i will talk to you next time

The Auron MacIntyre Show - October 05, 2026

Skillet： Jesus in the Trenches ｜ Guest： John Cooper ｜ 10⧸5⧸26

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