The Charlie Kirk Show - July 28, 2026


Fauci's Diaries + Inside Trump's Iran Calculus


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 10 minutes

Words per minute

172.15

Word count

12,211

Sentence count

776


Transcript

Transcripts from "The Charlie Kirk Show" are sourced from the Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool. Explore them interactively here.
00:00:03.000 My name is Charlie Kirk.
00:00:05.000 I run the largest pro American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic.
00:00:11.000 My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth.
00:00:14.000 If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're going to end up miserable.
00:00:19.000 But if the most important thing is doing good, you will end up purposeful.
00:00:24.000 College is a scam, everybody.
00:00:26.000 You got to stop sending your kids to college.
00:00:27.000 You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible.
00:00:31.000 Go start a Turning Point USA college chapter.
00:00:33.000 Go start a Turning Point USA High School chapter.
00:00:35.000 Go find out how your church can get involved.
00:00:37.000 Sign up and become an activist.
00:00:39.000 I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade.
00:00:41.000 Most important decision I ever made in my life.
00:00:43.000 And I encourage you to do the same.
00:00:45.000 Here I am.
00:00:46.000 Lord, use me.
00:00:48.000 Buckle up, everybody.
00:00:49.000 Here we go.
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00:01:17.000 We have so much to be grateful for today.
00:01:19.000 I will tell you so much.
00:01:22.000 And that is thanks to a number of people.
00:01:24.000 And I want to give them some kudos.
00:01:26.000 And that is because they got the Anthony Fauci Diaries.
00:01:30.000 The Fauci Diaries will go down as one of the most embarrassing falls from grace, if he had any, at least with half the country he did, that anybody has seen in recent memory.
00:01:40.000 Now, who do we have to thank for this?
00:01:42.000 Well, it turns out we have Secretary Kennedy.
00:01:47.000 That's right.
00:01:48.000 RFK Jr. found these diaries in about eight servers, scattered across eight servers.
00:01:56.000 They go back years, by the way.
00:01:57.000 There's a ton there.
00:02:00.000 And he found them and then he gave them to Senator Rand Paul and Senator Ron Johnson, both friends, both great patriots that are pushing hard.
00:02:08.000 And I mean, nobody has been quite like Senator Rand Paul.
00:02:12.000 He has been a dog with a bone to experience.
00:02:14.000 Expose Anthony Fauci because I think sometimes with people like Dr. Fauci, you just have this sense that something's pretty off.
00:02:23.000 And I think a lot of us did, a lot of you in this audience did.
00:02:26.000 And it turns out those suspicions were correct.
00:02:29.000 He was a fame seeking, incompetent, with sometimes sinister and malevolent aims to cover his own rear.
00:02:37.000 And that has become increasingly clear as we dive further and further into these diary entries.
00:02:42.000 Now, while much noise is being made about His contradictions on school closures and restaurants and bar closures, on the origin of the COVID virus, and so much else.
00:02:55.000 And obviously, I think driving most of this was his desire to cover up the fact that he was funding gain of function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
00:03:07.000 So that's the driving motivator for this man, not to save lives.
00:03:10.000 And that's all very, very, I would say, clear from a casual reading of the text.
00:03:16.000 But what more?
00:03:18.000 And this is something not many people are making the point.
00:03:21.000 I actually caught this thanks to our friend Kane over at Citizen Free Press.
00:03:26.000 He had posted Jesse Waters' monologue from last night.
00:03:29.000 At the very tail end, Jesse makes a parting comment that says he delayed the approval of the vaccine so that it didn't give President Trump a boost for the 2020 election.
00:03:42.000 Now, he didn't support that claim with any evidence.
00:03:46.000 So I was skeptical, but I was.
00:03:48.000 Chatting back and forth with Kane this morning, and man, did he put me in the right direction because this is an absolute treasure trove.
00:03:57.000 And it's a Substack authored by a guy named Justin Hart.
00:04:00.000 There it is.
00:04:02.000 And it says, new Fauci revelation.
00:04:04.000 He slow rolled the vax with backroom dealings so Trump wouldn't get his quote unquote October surprise.
00:04:12.000 And what this says, and we're going to go through it in detail here, is that it is apparent through about five months of diary entries that Anthony Fauci was not only well aware of the fact that an approved vaccine, think what you will about the vaccine, by the way, you don't have to support the vaccine, but at that time, nobody knew if it was going to be good or bad.
00:04:33.000 It was definitely going to be politically advantageous to President Trump to have an approved vaccine ahead of the 2020 election.
00:04:42.000 So, five months of him being very well aware of the fact that this was going to benefit the president if it got approved.
00:04:50.000 And what we see revealed in these diary entries is yet another example of how the deep state conspired to block President Trump to steal the 2020 election.
00:05:00.000 Now, we know about mail in ballots, we know about signature verification, easing, we know about Dropbox.
00:05:07.000 Galore all over the place, funded by Zuckerberg and others.
00:05:11.000 But this has been something that I remember very well.
00:05:14.000 I remember after the election a couple days, and then all of a sudden Pfizer gets approval and it's a big deal.
00:05:21.000 And I remember thinking, why on earth did they wait until after the election?
00:05:25.000 I mean, I knew why, but now we have documentation from Anthony Fauci's own diary that explains what happened.
00:05:34.000 So there's a number of players in this story, and we're going to go through them as we go.
00:05:39.000 But, namely, you got the FDA commissioner, you've got who's Stephen Hahn, you've got Peter Marks, who's the director of the FDA Center that reviews vaccines, you've got Alex Zarr, Secretary of Health and Human Services, you've got Larry Horowitz, who's a shadowy character.
00:05:51.000 I can't even find an image of this guy, but he works closely with Speaker Nancy Pelosi and is Fauci's main source again and again.
00:06:00.000 And, of course, you've got Francis Collins and Cliff Lane from the NIH director and one of Fauci's deputies at NIAID.
00:06:08.000 So, here's what we know.
00:06:09.000 Starting in June of 2020, a full Five months before the election, this is a diary entry from Dr. Fauci.
00:06:18.000 It's him becoming disillusioned with Deborah Burks, who was the White House coronavirus response coordinator, if you'll remember Scarf Lady.
00:06:28.000 Here's the quote Deb has stated that we should not do clinical trials since, quote, I want to see every infected person in a nursing home get plasma early and on steroids later.
00:06:38.000 Forget the trial.
00:06:39.000 We need to do this on EA, EUAs, which is Emergency Youth.
00:06:44.000 Authorization.
00:06:45.000 She says the same thing about vaccine trials.
00:06:47.000 Clearly, she is trying to provide Trump with his October surprise.
00:06:52.000 Did you check that?
00:06:52.000 Did you catch that?
00:06:53.000 This is in June 2020.
00:06:56.000 Provide Trump with his October surprise.
00:06:59.000 I may need to blow the whistle on her.
00:07:03.000 June 20th, 2020.
00:07:06.000 Five months before the election, he's already framed the acceleration of a vaccine approval process to ostensibly save lives.
00:07:15.000 Now, we know that the vaccine turned out to be a Huge dud, and if anything, contributed to worse health ailments for many people.
00:07:22.000 But at this point, we didn't know that.
00:07:24.000 It was objectively a good thing for the president.
00:07:27.000 Okay.
00:07:27.000 So later, this is the next diary entry that's of note from July 2020.
00:07:33.000 And this is quite interesting.
00:07:35.000 So he's now, so he's already expressed his worry about Deborah Burks.
00:07:41.000 Now he's expressing concerns about Mark Meadows, chief of staff.
00:07:45.000 So he watches Mark Meadows on television and writes, That it is his way of backing out of a failure and trying to get an October surprise.
00:07:53.000 Once again, heads up for him trying to push an early approval of vaccine.
00:07:59.000 The next day, July 27th, Fauci is in the Oval Office briefing Trump on therapeutics and vaccine.
00:08:05.000 His note is almost sympathetic.
00:08:06.000 And I'm reading straight from Justin's substack, which you should all check out, Rational Ground.
00:08:12.000 Trump accepted that the vaccine might not be ready before the elections, but he was not happy about it.
00:08:19.000 Then on July 31st, comes the entry that changes the picture, okay?
00:08:24.000 It comes from Nancy Pelosi's office.
00:08:26.000 Important call, says Dr. Fauci.
00:08:29.000 Larry Horowitz, who works closely with Nancy Pelosi, apparently there was a meeting at the White House with Steve Mnuchin, Mark Meadows, Nancy Pelosi, and Chuck Schumer.
00:08:37.000 Steve and Mark told Nancy and Chuck that AstraZeneca will have a vaccine in September.
00:08:42.000 Oh, that's before the election.
00:08:44.000 And that it will be given EUA.
00:08:46.000 Apparently, Peter Marks does not know anything about this, and Larry just informed him.
00:08:51.000 So get this a Nancy Pelosi aide is informing the guy who has to approve vaccines.
00:08:58.000 Bottom line is that they are going to pressure Steve Hahn.
00:09:04.000 Who likely will cave to the idea of an EUA to issue one, even though Peter has serious issues with this?
00:09:11.000 Clearly, this is politically driven and will be a ploy for Trump to get reelected.
00:09:16.000 Diary entry July 31st, 2020.
00:09:21.000 Anthony Fauci was backroom dealing to block the reelection of President Trump by delaying the vaccine.
00:09:30.000 And if it was just there, that would be enough.
00:09:32.000 But there's more diary posts and entries.
00:09:35.000 That proved this point.
00:09:36.000 So we just got done with a July 20, July 31st post, right?
00:09:42.000 And a week later, August 7th, 2020, there's a phone call.
00:09:49.000 And as Justin Hart explains it beautifully, this is the entry the entire story turns on.
00:09:56.000 I think that's a really great way to put it.
00:09:59.000 He says, Call from Larry Horowitz.
00:10:01.000 Again, this is the person that works closely with Nancy Pelosi.
00:10:04.000 He had warned me a few days ago about Meadows trying to pressure Hahn and Marks.
00:10:10.000 To grant UA.
00:10:12.000 So, just really quick, let's tell their names again.
00:10:15.000 Peter Marks is director of the FDAA Center that reviews vaccines.
00:10:20.000 Okay, Peter Marks.
00:10:21.000 That's him right there.
00:10:23.000 And then you've got Stephen Hahn, who's the FDA commissioner, it's Mark's boss.
00:10:28.000 And then Mark Meadows, we all know Mark Meadows, chief of staff.
00:10:32.000 So, these are the players involved.
00:10:35.000 Hahn and Marks to grant UA, which is emergency use authorization.
00:10:40.000 Prematurely to vaccines, likely AstraZeneca, in time for the election.
00:10:45.000 I called, so again, he's this is Dr. Fauci referencing the election.
00:10:49.000 I called Peter Marks a couple of days ago, together with Collins and Lane, remember NIH director Francis Collins and Lane, and explained that we would back him if he holds the line.
00:11:04.000 We would back him if he denies Trump his October surprise.
00:11:09.000 He called the AZ package a hot mess and definitely not in shape for an EUA.
00:11:14.000 That's from August 7th, 2020.
00:11:16.000 You've got three of the most senior scientists in the federal government the NIAID director, the NIH director, and Fauci's deputy.
00:11:25.000 They telephoned the regulators who would sign the authorization and told them they would back him if he held out.
00:11:35.000 It's great journalism from Justin Hart, by the way.
00:11:38.000 So, this is fast forward to October.
00:11:46.000 So, There's more emails or more diary entries throughout August, September.
00:11:51.000 Then on the 8th of October, Horowitz flags that an FDA official needs support against a hydroxychloroquine authorization being pushed by Peter Navarro.
00:12:01.000 They didn't like hydroxychloroquine.
00:12:03.000 Remember, they called it horse paste?
00:12:05.000 And that Hahn told her to hold her decision so he could speak with Meadows.
00:12:10.000 On the 24th, Pfizer CEO, remember him?
00:12:13.000 Albert Berla calls Fauci worried that AstraZeneca will get an authorization before the other companies finish their trials.
00:12:21.000 On the 26th, after the FDA authorizes convalescent plasma, Fauci writes that Hahn likely caved to Meadows, who is looking for good news before the election.
00:12:32.000 There seems to be one player in this story that is hyper fixated on the upcoming election, and that is Dr. Anthony Fauci.
00:12:41.000 October 29th, we're just five days out now.
00:12:46.000 This is his diary entry.
00:12:48.000 Some potentially nefarious stuff going on.
00:12:51.000 The FDA career scientists are hesitant to grant emergency use authorization to Lilly's and Regenerons MAB based on the current data.
00:13:00.000 Alex Azar is really pushing them and furious because he thinks FDA is slow walking the process so as to not have it out before the election in five days.
00:13:08.000 Clearly, Alex wants to please POTUS so that they can say that they have a breakthrough right before the election.
00:13:15.000 He puts this in all bold.
00:13:17.000 We encourage Francis to support career scientists at FDA since they do not want to rush this through.
00:13:24.000 Okay, they do not want to rush this through.
00:13:26.000 That would be all well and good if that's where the story ended.
00:13:30.000 Okay, you're just a principled scientist that doesn't want to rush through an emergency use authorization.
00:13:39.000 But then fast forward to November 21st.
00:13:43.000 Trump lost, air quotes, and Pfizer announces its 95% efficacy result on November 9th.
00:13:54.000 Six days after the election.
00:13:57.000 And a little over two weeks later, the same back channel that's been feeding Fauci all this information, which is, of course, Nancy Pelosi's Larry Horowitz, calls and tells Fauci the following Got a call from Larry Horowitz tonight telling me that Peter Marks told him that Trump called up Steve Hahn today and told him that Alex Azar said that Steve lost POTUS the election by holding up the news about the Pfizer vaccine.
00:14:22.000 Well, you can imagine why President Trump might think that.
00:14:27.000 Pfizer announced six days after the election.
00:14:31.000 Trump was cursing Steve on the phone and then hung up.
00:14:34.000 Steve did not know if he was going to get fired and told this to Peter, who called up Larry.
00:14:38.000 Still not sure what's going to happen.
00:14:43.000 That's right.
00:14:46.000 This is the story of how Dr. Anthony Fauci back channeled, weighed in with the top scientists at the FDA and HHS, and even took stabs at Deborah Burke, Scarf Lady.
00:15:01.000 To block the emergency use authorization of the AstraZeneca vaccine.
00:15:06.000 And in so doing, knowingly worked against President Trump's reelection hopes.
00:15:15.000 This is Dr. Anthony Fauci.
00:15:17.000 Not only is he a fame whore, not only was he absolutely obsessed with his own press clippings, not only was he obsessed with celebrities wearing Fauci shirts and being sainted through the legacy media, not only was he obsessed.
00:15:32.000 With funding gain of function research in China and then covering it up, the man very well could have cost President Trump the 2020 election single handedly.
00:15:46.000 This is the real story of Dr. Anthony Fauci, a sinister, lying, fame hungry, incompetent, a bureaucrat that put his thumb on the scales of the 2020 election.
00:15:59.000 And we all, unfortunately, saw the devastation caused by that.
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00:17:04.000 Jonathan Swan, welcome to the show.
00:17:05.000 It's good to see you.
00:17:09.000 Some might be surprised to see a New York Times journalist on the Charlie Kirk show, but for those who didn't know and don't know, you and Charlie were actually friends.
00:17:18.000 And you guys knew each other pretty well.
00:17:19.000 I actually know you because of Charlie.
00:17:22.000 So maybe that's a good place to start because I know you mentioned him in your book, Regime Change Inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump.
00:17:29.000 But you talk about Charlie in this book.
00:17:32.000 Why don't we start there?
00:17:33.000 Well, I got to know Charlie in the way that reporters get to know people.
00:17:37.000 You know, you want to talk to as wide a range of people as you can.
00:17:41.000 And I just found Charlie to be I mean, I met Charlie for the first time in 2017.
00:17:48.000 So, almost 10 years ago.
00:17:51.000 And I got to know him through Trump's first term as he was very young, building this organization that at the time not that many people had heard of, but it started to really build momentum.
00:18:04.000 And it was very obvious to me straight away A, that he was a very sophisticated and smart operator.
00:18:12.000 I mean, he'd already developed a friendship with Donald Trump Jr., and he was starting to build at the time.
00:18:20.000 A very close relationship with the president.
00:18:23.000 And so, one thing you sort of try to figure out when you're reporting on people who are activists, leaders, movement leaders is are they running an organization that is essentially an AstroTurf organization?
00:18:38.000 Because there's a lot of people who are sort of put out there as well, this person is a leader, this person leads a movement.
00:18:43.000 And you scratch a little bit under the surface and actually, no, it turns out this whole thing is sort of ginned up with algorithms and it's fake.
00:18:51.000 You could see very quickly and very clearly that that was not the case with Charlie Kirk.
00:18:56.000 He had really huge, these events, the crowds at these events, you can't fake that.
00:19:04.000 And it was very obvious to me that he was not just building himself as an activist leader, as a movement leader, as an advisor to the president, as a fundraiser, but in the view of, I could tell you, quite a few people around Trump, Kirk had a choice.
00:19:25.000 They thought he was either going to be the heir to Rush Limbaugh or potentially the Republican nominee for president in a future cycle.
00:19:35.000 And I happen to share that view.
00:19:38.000 And, you know, obviously we will never know, but I certainly had strongly felt that by, you know, 2022, 2023.
00:19:50.000 And you tell the story of inside the White House when the news broke of what happened to Charlie.
00:19:57.000 And it's pretty excruciating.
00:19:59.000 Candidly, I don't want to spend too much time on it, but if you have an anecdote, we'd love to hear it.
00:20:06.000 Well, yeah, it's hard to relive it.
00:20:13.000 We have in the book what we try to describe in the book is the effect that Charlie's death had on the president of the United States and the people around him, his inner circle.
00:20:25.000 And we have a scene in the book where the president learns about Charlie's death, and he actually learns about it from his son, Baron, who was a huge fan of Charlie's.
00:20:38.000 And he phoned the president.
00:20:40.000 He was very distressed, very distraught.
00:20:44.000 And The president was trying to absorb this news, but also trying to comfort his son.
00:20:51.000 And people who were in the West Wing that day describe it almost like it was just a zombie land, in the sense that people were just in a state of shock.
00:21:01.000 Charlie Kirk was considered a member of the family by many of these people.
00:21:08.000 And so we just describe, you know, again, I don't want to belabor it too much with you, but, you know, we have an insight in the book into how they.
00:21:19.000 Regathered themselves at that moment, got together.
00:21:22.000 Of course, they still didn't know who had done this or any of the details.
00:21:27.000 The vice president was in a state of acute distress.
00:21:34.000 He credits JD Vance, credits Charlie Cook more than anyone with his political career.
00:21:41.000 I mean, I think it's an objective fact that without Charlie Cook, JD Vance would not be United States senator, he would not be vice president of the United States.
00:21:52.000 Charlie Kirk was the one who vouched for JD Vance to the Trump family initially when they were very skeptical about someone who had a history as a never-Trumper who had said all sorts of things about Donald Trump.
00:22:04.000 In early 2021, Charlie Kirk was, I would say, of all the people, him and Don Jr., but really it was Charlie Kirk vouching for JD Vance that established him within that circle.
00:22:16.000 And then, of course, he had a huge role in helping him become vice president.
00:22:22.000 We, you know, we describe in the book the emotions that the vice president was going through, but also the decision he made very quickly to take Air Force Two to collect Charlie's casket, to comfort his family, to comfort Erica, and that whole sequence of events, which, of course, you're very intimately familiar with, Andrew.
00:22:43.000 I can tell you, he comforted all of us.
00:22:46.000 I mean, I was on that flight as well, and he came back.
00:22:49.000 I mean, he sat up with Erica and Usha.
00:22:52.000 But he came back and he talked to us too.
00:22:54.000 And you could tell he was in a bad way, like we all were, but he put on a brave face and, you know, put his hand on our shoulders.
00:23:03.000 And I'll never forget it.
00:23:05.000 I'll never forget it.
00:23:08.000 On the topic of JD, there's been a lot made of these scenes in your book from inside the Situation Room.
00:23:15.000 You know, there's a scene with Benjamin Netanyahu pitching some of the intel leading up to the Iran war.
00:23:22.000 You see JD's posture as being pretty skeptical.
00:23:26.000 And I would say that there was a lot of members that were pretty skeptical.
00:23:29.000 I would say, I guess my question is separate fact from fiction.
00:23:33.000 When it comes to the admins' reception of that intel, the players, I mean, how skeptical were they?
00:23:42.000 And why, in your estimation, why was the decision to go in in the second strikes made by the president?
00:23:50.000 Well, it's nuanced, right?
00:23:52.000 Even the skepticism from the U.S. intelligence, just to take a backward step, in the book, we describe Netanyahu, this pretty astonishing meeting where he comes to the White House Situation Room and essentially pitches.
00:24:05.000 President Trump on his plan for a regime change war with Iran.
00:24:10.000 And he's got, you know, on the screen behind him, he's got the head of Mossad, Israeli generals, and he lays out scenarios, including the Kurds coming across helping to overthrow the regime and a video montage which has potential replacement leaders in Iran, including Reza Pahlavi, who's the son of the last Shah.
00:24:30.000 So they absorb all of this, and overnight the CIA does an analysis on it.
00:24:36.000 And the skepticism was in a very I wouldn't say narrow because it's pretty darn important, but it wasn't like they said, oh, we can't achieve any of these objectives.
00:24:47.000 We can't degrade or dismantle the ballistic missiles.
00:24:50.000 We can't do anything to suppress Iran's defense industrial base.
00:24:54.000 The really hardcore skepticism concerned the regime change scenarios.
00:24:59.000 And I'll tell you, everyone on the Trump team basically was skeptical about this.
00:25:04.000 Vance happened to be the one who vocalized that most aggressively with Trump, but others did too at different times, and particularly that intelligence, Ratcliffe and Rubio.
00:25:14.000 Express skepticism to President Trump about it.
00:25:17.000 Look, people will debate about how and why we went to war, but every piece of reporting I've done and everyone I've talked to in the inner circle, and I think Trump has made this clear in different ways, maybe less bluntly publicly, is that he had a feeling, he had a gut feeling that this Iranian regime would collapse quickly.
00:25:35.000 And even if it wasn't going to end up in regime change, he thought it would, he thought it was worthwhile going ahead with this mission, even with the more limited objectives of trying to degrade.
00:25:45.000 And dismantle both their nuclear program and their ballistic missile program.
00:25:49.000 So that was his thinking going in.
00:25:51.000 And, you know, he did hear a range of skeptical views, but I will say, not expressed to him in a particularly forceful way, with the exception of JD Vance.
00:26:03.000 Yeah.
00:26:03.000 And I think that stands out from your reporting, actually.
00:26:08.000 And I remember the portion about Marco Rubio saying, I mean, you laid it out in four objectives, right?
00:26:14.000 Degrading their military capacity, getting their nuclear program offline.
00:26:18.000 All the way up to regime change.
00:26:21.000 And I think Rubio was like, if your goal is to get the first two, then fine.
00:26:25.000 If your goal is to get the other two, namely regime change, like the intel's bunk.
00:26:30.000 And I thought that was a really interesting.
00:26:32.000 I mean, a lot of people had issues with BB being in the situation room.
00:26:35.000 I share those.
00:26:36.000 A lot of people had issues with a number of things from that story.
00:26:40.000 But I think it was a really interesting look inside the room about how varied the opinions were and how actually sober minded.
00:26:50.000 Many of them were, including JD, including Marco.
00:26:52.000 All right.
00:26:53.000 So I want to talk about this MOU because I do think that there is this perception.
00:26:59.000 I don't think it's fair that basically JD Vance has been going rogue and he's working against the president's interests.
00:27:09.000 And you see this narrative forming online.
00:27:12.000 I know you've talked about this before, and I know that you say it's false, but let's get into detail.
00:27:18.000 Explain how you know that the peace proposal.
00:27:22.000 Working towards a peace plan was President Trump's direct order to JD Vance.
00:27:28.000 And what changed in the president's thinking to get him from a war posture more towards a peace posture?
00:27:34.000 Well, I mean, I don't.
00:27:38.000 I heard this.
00:27:39.000 I didn't really realize this was much of a narrative until I was actually asked this question on a different podcast.
00:27:45.000 And it was so absurd.
00:27:47.000 I mean, I just.
00:27:48.000 Honestly, I never even really heard anyone say this because no one who actually knows what's going on, who's working in the administration at a senior level, has ever suggested that to me.
00:27:58.000 I mean,.
00:27:58.000 President Trump asked JD Vance, Steve Witkoff, and Jared Kushner to negotiate with the Iranians.
00:28:06.000 Now, that's not to say that Trump thinks Trump has been at different times very skeptical of whether they would succeed or not, but that's a separate question from whether he asked them to do it.
00:28:15.000 He just did.
00:28:16.000 I mean, I don't even know what to tell people who are saying that.
00:28:18.000 And do they have any evidence?
00:28:20.000 I mean, what are they proposing as evidence that this is a rogue situation?
00:28:25.000 Well, I mean, listen, Jonathan, you know it's all a proxy war about 2028, right?
00:28:30.000 The more hawkish crowd.
00:28:32.000 It's very skeptical about JD and the, I think, you know, they prefer Rubio.
00:28:37.000 So it's all a proxy war for 2028, right?
00:28:40.000 And they want to paint JD as some sort of non pragmatic dove who's naive to the machinations of the Iranian regime.
00:28:47.000 I mean, that's what it is.
00:28:49.000 But I think JD has gone into these negotiations very aware that they could back out at any time and that they could, that might have to restart military kinetic operations, which they've had to do.
00:28:59.000 But once again, we're in a position where we're seeing, The push towards an MOU.
00:29:04.000 You saw President Trump this morning with Lindsey Graham and his funeral saying, you know, Lindsey was pushing for a peace plan with Iran.
00:29:12.000 He's like, Lindsey loved war, but even he was pushing.
00:29:15.000 I mean, that's what he said.
00:29:16.000 He said by the end.
00:29:18.000 So, I mean, basically, your point there's two narratives, really that JD went rogue with this peace plan or that he was, you know, being naive, something along those lines, and that Trump got dog walked into Iran by Israel.
00:29:31.000 Those are the two, I think, competing narratives.
00:29:34.000 That you see at both the start of this operation and in the attempt to conclude it, right?
00:29:40.000 So maybe let's go back to the first, the start.
00:29:43.000 You know, obviously it's clear Netanyahu was in the situation room.
00:29:47.000 Did Trump get, you know, pushed into this war by Israel?
00:29:51.000 Again, it's more complicated.
00:29:52.000 These are these nice, clean narratives, and they're just not accurate.
00:29:56.000 It's much more nuanced.
00:29:57.000 Yes, Netanyahu made a very aggressive campaign, as everyone knows, over many, many months to try to bring America into this war.
00:30:06.000 But actually, the The reality you could talk to anyone in Trump's inner circle, literally anyone, talk to anyone who was actually there who saw these decisions get made.
00:30:14.000 Donald Trump himself was more hawkish about Iran than just about anyone on his team.
00:30:20.000 I think actually more than anyone on his team.
00:30:22.000 The closest probably was Pete Hegseth.
00:30:25.000 And remember, Trump has a long history of this.
00:30:27.000 People choose not to see it, and that's their prerogative.
00:30:30.000 But if you choose to actually just deal with objectively with what Trump has his long record on Iran, A, he's been talking about Iran for a very long time.
00:30:40.000 Very long time, even before he went into politics.
00:30:42.000 In the first term, there were senior advisors that he had who counseled him to stay in the JCPOA, Obama's nuclear deal with Iran.
00:30:50.000 Trump ignored their advice and pulled out of the deal.
00:30:53.000 That was a hawkish move.
00:30:55.000 And then again, later in his term, January 2020, there were many people who thought it was unwise to order the killing of Qasem Soleimani, the top Iranian general.
00:31:06.000 Trump went ahead with it and did it anyway.
00:31:09.000 And then in his years out of power, He was briefed by the FBI that the Iranians were trying to kill him.
00:31:16.000 So that had an effect.
00:31:18.000 Again, he's also said, you know, stay out of wars and you can find what you want in Donald Trump's rhetoric.
00:31:23.000 I fully concede that, of course.
00:31:25.000 But he does have a very hawkish record with Iran specifically.
00:31:29.000 So it was more complicated than that.
00:31:31.000 And ultimately, Donald Trump decided to go into this war.
00:31:35.000 He made the decision, and a skeptical case was put to him, most aggressively by JD Vance, but in certain more narrow respects by others too.
00:31:44.000 So let's go into everybody wants to talk about the 2028 horse race.
00:31:47.000 We've probably given it too much attention on this show.
00:31:51.000 I know your book is about the first year, but what can you glean from that first year as we head into the midterms?
00:31:57.000 What is the mood inside this White House?
00:31:59.000 What are they thinking?
00:32:00.000 What are the strategies that you expect them to employ heading into November?
00:32:04.000 Are they worried?
00:32:05.000 Are they frustrated?
00:32:06.000 Are they confident?
00:32:08.000 What's the mood?
00:32:09.000 I mean, they're obviously worried.
00:32:11.000 I mean, these are smart political operators and they're immersed in data and they can see what everyone else can see, which is the president has a low approval rating.
00:32:23.000 Presidents always, their party always tends to, history shows they tend to perform, not always, but almost always.
00:32:30.000 Tend to underperform in midterm elections.
00:32:33.000 So, all of those factors.
00:32:34.000 And then, of course, cost of living.
00:32:36.000 I could just rehearse the litany, but you've heard it.
00:32:39.000 The Iran war certainly hasn't helped.
00:32:41.000 But to the extent that they're hopeful, optimistic, in some cases more confident, it's for a couple of reasons.
00:32:49.000 Number one, the Senate map is very, very favorable to Republicans.
00:32:53.000 And a lot of these races that Democrats are talking about winning, they're tough.
00:32:59.000 I mean, you tell me what the layup is in the Senate.
00:33:02.000 For Democrats, I can't tell you what it is.
00:33:04.000 I can't tell you what the layup is.
00:33:07.000 Maine, yes, I get it.
00:33:09.000 Democrats generally do well in Maine, but Susan Collins has her own brand there.
00:33:12.000 She's a very formidable candidate.
00:33:16.000 Ohio's a red state.
00:33:17.000 I understand.
00:33:18.000 I think they have a strong candidate there, but it's a red state.
00:33:21.000 That's a hard win.
00:33:22.000 Iowa's a red state.
00:33:24.000 These are not like slam dunks for the Democrats.
00:33:26.000 So that's one thing.
00:33:28.000 And then the other thing is in the House, look, it's a huge uphill climb for the Republicans to hold the House.
00:33:34.000 They all understand that.
00:33:36.000 But The effort by James Blair and others to redraw the maps has definitely helped them.
00:33:43.000 The structural advantages are definitely on their side.
00:33:46.000 So, and they've got here's the other thing that people aren't really talking about, I think, nearly enough.
00:33:50.000 For the first time in my memory, the Republicans have an overwhelming financial advantage.
00:33:57.000 And a lot of it is because of the shift in Silicon Valley and the crypto money and the changing landscape in the donor community, which I think is really under indexed.
00:34:08.000 So, you can.
00:34:10.000 Tell a story where things are much more favorable to them, even though the overall environment is pretty terrible.
00:34:19.000 Well, I think that's a really fair telling of events there, Jonathan Swan, New York Times reporter, author of the new book, Regime Change.
00:34:27.000 And, you know, that title, man, given what's happened in Iran, is almost freaky, Jonathan.
00:34:34.000 And by the way, those are the marching orders get gas under four, get oil prices down, and wrap up that war.
00:34:41.000 That's the big drag.
00:34:42.000 If we could do that, a lot of things open up.
00:34:44.000 Jonathan Swan, thank you.
00:34:45.000 Thank you for your time.
00:34:46.000 Thanks so much for having me.
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00:35:50.000 Our next guest needs no introduction to this audience, and that, of course, is Sean Davis, CEO and co founder of The Federalist.
00:35:57.000 An amazing, amazing news institution analysis, opinion, and reporting.
00:36:04.000 Sean, welcome back to the show, my friend.
00:36:07.000 I couldn't help but notice you're rather, in pure Sean Davis fashion, you're very reserved tweet this morning, railing against the neocons.
00:36:19.000 And I think that's a good place to start.
00:36:21.000 We were originally planning to talk about Fauci, but when I saw this tweet, I was like, okay, we got to start there.
00:36:28.000 So let me read the few first.
00:36:30.000 Few sentences here because it's a long tweet.
00:36:33.000 It is inarguable that the war in Iran is a massive drag on Trump's numbers, as well as those of the Republican Party heading into November.
00:36:40.000 This is largely driven by consistently high gas prices, which also drive up the price of everything else.
00:36:46.000 Trump obviously knows this, which is why he's been searching for an off ramp for months.
00:36:49.000 He knows he was elected to get gas prices down and the economy in shape, which he did until the war jammed up the gears.
00:36:55.000 But a major problem for Trump's presidency right now is that nearly everyone outside his inner circle is pushing for this war.
00:37:02.000 And this includes the entirety of the so called conservative pundits who never found a war they weren't willing to make others fight and pay for.
00:37:09.000 It also hates Trump and especially Vance and sees the war's negative effects on his popularity as a secondary benefit of the war they've been salivating over for decades.
00:37:18.000 To them, his declining numbers are a feature, not a bug.
00:37:22.000 What do you mean by that?
00:37:23.000 Yeah, so let's go back a little bit in time to 2016.
00:37:26.000 There was a very infamous magazine article, and the cover said against Trump, and it was signed by a bunch of so called conservative luminaries.
00:37:35.000 And wouldn't you know?
00:37:37.000 Almost to a person, every person who wrote in that article against Trump, trying to make sure he wasn't going to become president, these are the same people whispering in his ear or shouting from behind microphones now on television and podcasts, telling him, No, no, no, no, Mr. President, actually, everyone loves this war.
00:37:55.000 It's going really awesome for you.
00:37:58.000 Yeah, also, JD Vance sucks.
00:37:59.000 We don't want him, but just keep doing the war, Mr. President.
00:38:03.000 It's like watching Grima Wormtongue give advice to King Theoden, watching how these neocons constantly try to manipulate.
00:38:12.000 And distort what's going on to get Trump to do something that's not going to be good for him, not going to be good for America, but is going to be great for neocons who just want wars and who want Trumpism and MAGA and America First or whatever you want to call it gone forever.
00:38:26.000 And so this is kind of just like my plea, Mr. President.
00:38:30.000 Understand that the people trying to push you into expanding this war, getting into a ground combat, these people do not have your best interests at heart.
00:38:37.000 And to the extent that the advice they give you hurts you, they are fine with that.
00:38:42.000 It sort of reminds me of The Empire Strikes Back, right?
00:38:46.000 You've got Trump leads this takeover of the GOP, a hostile takeover of the GOP, bends the entire movement and popular will to his will.
00:38:58.000 And now there is this opportunity that they've seen to scurry back in and get the president's ear, win the influence of the presidency and Trump 2.0.
00:39:11.000 And they really don't care if it hurts President Trump.
00:39:14.000 And I think that's the key point here.
00:39:17.000 I agree with you.
00:39:17.000 These voices, they really don't care what happens to the coalition that won him the White House because, in their mind, the conservative movement would be better off if it didn't have MAGA to deal with.
00:39:29.000 If they could just get rid of these pesky populist America First policies that have gotten in the way of so much good K Street lobbying money, then they would be better off.
00:39:37.000 And that's what they want.
00:39:39.000 I mean, they would defend, let's play devil's advocate here, Sean.
00:39:43.000 They would defend their position as principled stands against.
00:39:48.000 Totalitarian regime and against a nuclear armed Iran, which is unacceptable.
00:39:54.000 They would say, now you got to go the full way where pot committed.
00:39:57.000 What's your answer to them as far as what the right next move is?
00:40:03.000 Yeah, well, so I get that that's the other argument.
00:40:06.000 I wish people would just be honest about the political consequences of that.
00:40:10.000 Instead, what we're seeing is them trying to have their cake and eat it too.
00:40:13.000 Oh, we have to do this.
00:40:15.000 Sean, it's not about politics, it's about principle, it's about what's right and what's wrong, Sean.
00:40:20.000 You can't just be politically driven.
00:40:23.000 But it is politically driven because the reality is that Iran and any other sort of despotic regime, whether it's Iran or North Korea or whatever, they understand that their survival is based on having nuclear weapons.
00:40:37.000 That was the lesson of Gaddafi, who gave up his weapons program during the Iraq War and who was then removed from power at the behest of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.
00:40:46.000 At that moment, every tyrant on earth understood that if we have nuclear weapons, that's the only thing that saves us.
00:40:53.000 So, you have to acknowledge the long term reality of geopolitics, which is that Iran is not trustworthy.
00:41:00.000 It's a completely total mess of a nation.
00:41:03.000 They are going to try and get nuclear weapons regardless of what they say right now.
00:41:07.000 And so, the best hedge, the best way to protect against Iran or any other despotic regime having these nuclear weapons is to make sure you have a strong Republican in power who they're terrified of.
00:41:19.000 This is why they were trying to build it under Obama, they were building capacity back up under Biden.
00:41:25.000 And what has happened with this war right now is that by making it less likely that Republicans hold Congress, by making it less likely that a Republican can hold the White House in 28 and 32, they are making it more likely that an Iranian regime under the next Democrat president will be able to build up and perhaps even deploy nuclear weapons.
00:41:45.000 And so I get the principled argument, but the problem with so much of this interventionist neocon nonsense is they're never thinking past the current move.
00:41:53.000 They think, oh, I'm going to move the pawn here and I'm going to take this piece, and that's it.
00:41:58.000 I've won.
00:41:58.000 Nothing that happens after this matters without understanding that, oh crap, I may have just left my king absolutely wide open.
00:42:05.000 There is a total lack of long term strategic thinking here that I think is making the situation worse for America over time.
00:42:12.000 And the reason is that you cannot escape politics.
00:42:15.000 Who is in charge matters.
00:42:16.000 And everything you're doing right now is making it less likely that Republicans will be in charge and in a position to stop despotic and tyrannical regimes like those in Iran.
00:42:26.000 Sean, I think the interesting part of your analysis, though, is you said it's a feature, not a bug.
00:42:31.000 Are you alleging that they wanted to leave the king totally exposed?
00:42:37.000 That was part of the move here so that they could then say, look, see, Trump's policies are really unpopular.
00:42:42.000 We got to go back to the old way.
00:42:43.000 Oh, yeah, I'm not implying that or suggesting that.
00:42:46.000 I'm going to straight up say it.
00:42:47.000 They want Trump gone.
00:42:49.000 And that's part of 2026 a lot of the base of this opposition is actually in the Republican Senate.
00:42:56.000 You have people there who are sick of Trump.
00:42:58.000 They want him gone.
00:42:59.000 They want the maggot fever to break so they can take back over and be in charge again.
00:43:03.000 And get us people like Mitt Romney or John McCain running for president again.
00:43:07.000 They want to go back to being a party of beautiful losers.
00:43:10.000 And so a lot of what's happening now is about setting the stage for 26 and then setting the stage for 28.
00:43:16.000 They want MAGA and America First and Trumpism gone so they can take the party back over again.
00:43:22.000 I hate to say, but you're 100% right.
00:43:25.000 You're 100% right.
00:43:27.000 And that, I mean, I grant that they want to deal with Iran.
00:43:31.000 The Hawks want to deal with Iran.
00:43:32.000 They want to take down the regime.
00:43:35.000 But they don't care what it costs.
00:43:37.000 They don't care at all what it costs.
00:43:39.000 They weren't part of building this coalition.
00:43:41.000 They didn't have sleepless nights knocking doors and making the argument, or in Charlie's case, visiting.
00:43:48.000 Dozens and dozens of college campuses, and all the videos and the billions of views trying to pitch this to young people and to this new coalition that we build.
00:43:57.000 So they have no skin in the game if it falls apart.
00:44:00.000 They just get to go back to the old way, and that's really depressing.
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00:45:04.000 Okay.
00:45:05.000 So I just had Jonathan Swan on in hour one, right?
00:45:08.000 He's got that book, Regime Change.
00:45:09.000 And I asked him, I said, you know, was it Trump's idea to move towards peace?
00:45:13.000 And he said, absolutely.
00:45:15.000 JD was doing the president's bidding there.
00:45:18.000 And granted, based on news of the day, new intel that comes in, the president may fluctuate some.
00:45:24.000 But the president gets that this needs to be.
00:45:27.000 Done with.
00:45:28.000 And he gets it for political reasons, as you said.
00:45:31.000 What is your advice to this admin right now?
00:45:35.000 What needs to be focus number one and number two?
00:45:37.000 Yeah, so I think the first focus needs you need a peace deal and you need to get the U.S. out of there.
00:45:42.000 And the thing that is complicating that is the economic situation in the straight there.
00:45:47.000 There's so much oil that moves through there.
00:45:49.000 But the reality is that most of that oil, and I understand that we have a global oil market and spot prices and all that.
00:45:57.000 The bulk of the oil there is not going to the US, it's going to Europe.
00:46:01.000 And so I think the solution here actually has to deal with getting Europe to take charge of its own energy and take charge of its own security situation.
00:46:09.000 America has been the world policeman for way too long, whether it's doing nuke policing or whether it's having to put bases all over Europe or whether it's going to Iraq or whether it's doing what it did in Syria or Libya.
00:46:22.000 America can't handle it anymore.
00:46:23.000 We're stretched too thin, and it is long past time for Europe to take ownership of its own future.
00:46:29.000 Now, whether that means Europe taking military control of the Straits, I don't know.
00:46:33.000 Maybe it is in massive rapid investment of pipelines along so you can make the Strait no longer necessary.
00:46:41.000 But to me, it is largely a European problem, which it was when we first went in at the beginning of the second term to Yemen and started dealing with the Houthis there because they were attacking ships and all that, making things difficult.
00:46:55.000 The energy problem there is actually a European problem.
00:46:58.000 And if we want to deal with the situation we're having with spot prices, we need to Rapidly expand energy extraction in the US.
00:47:06.000 We have more than we need here to support us.
00:47:09.000 And we should probably be exporting a whole lot less energy, whether it's liquid natural gas or oil.
00:47:17.000 But this idea that we remain completely dependent because of the interconnectedness of global markets on the Middle East, that is a major, major problem.
00:47:26.000 It is a massive weak link in the chain that simply doesn't need to be there.
00:47:29.000 So I think that's the long term solution for this.
00:47:32.000 It strikes me as something where we could put together a coalition to blockade the strait, keep the pressure on if that's what we need to do.
00:47:40.000 With European allies, while you said we just do that for a couple years while these pipelines get built, and we could exist in a detente and gas prices would come down.
00:47:50.000 And I mean, it would maybe it's not the ideal solution, but at least it would get rid of that choke point through the straight.
00:47:57.000 And we could probably just do that for a couple years without a huge, huge lift.
00:48:02.000 But you got to make sure that Europe pays their fair share.
00:48:06.000 And it does strike me as a little bit like we break it, you buy it.
00:48:09.000 But nevertheless, The fact of the matter is, real politics is that it does affect them way more than it does us.
00:48:16.000 Sean, I want to pivot really quickly to Anthony Fauci because I've been waiting for this all day.
00:48:21.000 We did a whole rundown of how he actually slow walked the vaccine, and obviously, it got approved six days after the election.
00:48:30.000 Fauci was very aware of the politics there.
00:48:32.000 But in general, what do you make of the Fauci diaries?
00:48:37.000 He's been pardoned by Joe Biden's auto pen.
00:48:40.000 I don't know what the options on the table are.
00:48:42.000 But what has been the biggest revelation for you when it comes to these?
00:48:46.000 I will admit that I was wrong about Anthony Fauci.
00:48:49.000 And the biggest revelation to me is that he is a much, much bigger demon, a far more narcissistic, nefarious presence in government than even I assumed.
00:48:59.000 And I was calling for that guy to be fired in April and May of 2020.
00:49:04.000 So I'm actually shocked, as cynical as I am, I'm shocked that he somehow comes off even more megalomaniacal and more narcissistic in his diary than I ever assumed.
00:49:17.000 You know, there was one of his diary entries dating back to 2013.
00:49:21.000 Somebody at the CDC had blocked him from doing a Wolf Blitzer interview on CNN, and he lost it.
00:49:27.000 He was like, This is terrible.
00:49:28.000 I don't know what's going on.
00:49:29.000 They're worried that I'm a rock star, that I'm taking away the limelight from them.
00:49:35.000 I mean, and even with his descriptions of his relationship with President Trump, he's like, President Trump seems quite fond of me, even though I'm stealing the limelight from him.
00:49:42.000 This man is, you use the word narcissist, that is actually a very, very fair.
00:49:49.000 Description of him and the way he was fawning over his own press clippings and the love affair.
00:49:55.000 He's talking about how he's the most recognizable and famous man on the planet.
00:49:59.000 I mean, this is a sick, sick deal with this man who ultimately probably cost President Trump the 2020 election.
00:50:07.000 Genuinely, I don't think that's overstating it.
00:50:09.000 There were many factors at play, many deep state actors contributed to that, certainly.
00:50:15.000 But he, with the prominence of the COVID story in 2020, I think that case is very fair.
00:50:21.000 What do you make about What we can do about it now with this pardon?
00:50:25.000 Is there anything that can, I mean, Rand Paul's saying if he lies in front of Congress again, he's not covered by the pardon?
00:50:30.000 Okay.
00:50:32.000 But I guess short of that, is he just off the hook?
00:50:35.000 Is this guy going to skate?
00:50:37.000 I don't think he's off the hook at all.
00:50:39.000 The question is are there any red state attorneys general or prosecutors who are willing to hold him account to account for the crimes he did?
00:50:48.000 And again, the Democrats set the playbook here.
00:50:51.000 It wasn't enough when they went after Trump for J6 to do it in federal courts.
00:50:55.000 They also had their people in Georgia, in Arizona, go after anyone who was involved.
00:51:01.000 And so I think the solution for Anthony Fauci here is I guarantee you he committed some kind of crime or multiple crimes or conspiracies across multiple states that we have state attorneys general or prosecutors who can go after him for.
00:51:15.000 So I don't know if it's James Uthmeyer in Florida, you know, maybe it's a prosecutor in Tennessee or Texas or Missouri.
00:51:24.000 I guarantee you he has legal liability in various states.
00:51:28.000 And I don't think we have to wait for him to perjure himself before Rand Paul tomorrow.
00:51:32.000 I think there are lots of avenues for state.
00:51:34.000 Prosecutors and attorneys general to go after him for what he did.
00:51:37.000 The man's a psychopath responsible for the deaths of millions who is eating dinner with Jake Tapper while he made you watch your loved ones die alone in hospitals.
00:51:45.000 Well said.
00:51:46.000 Sean Davis from the Federalists.
00:51:47.000 God bless you, man.
00:51:48.000 Talk to you soon.
00:51:49.000 Thank you, sir.
00:51:52.000 I had the honor of a lifetime to call Charlie a friend.
00:51:57.000 And what I remember most wasn't just what people saw on stage, it was what was behind the scenes.
00:52:03.000 That was an unwavering commitment to his faith.
00:52:06.000 His love for his family, and his genuine desire to encourage others to live with courage and conviction.
00:52:12.000 Charlie believed that following Christ wasn't something you compartmentalize.
00:52:16.000 He didn't put it in a box, he lived it out loud.
00:52:19.000 It shaped how he lived, how he served, how he treated people every single day.
00:52:23.000 Charlie Kirk, American Martyr, captures that heart.
00:52:26.000 This documentary isn't just simply about remembering Charlie, it's an invitation for each of us to ask what kind of legacy we're building and whether we're willing to stand firm in our own faith when it's tested.
00:52:38.000 I hope.
00:52:39.000 That you'll watch it with your family and have those conversations together.
00:52:42.000 Go to angel.comslash Kirk.
00:52:45.000 That's angel.comslash Kirk.
00:52:47.000 Become an Angel Guild member.
00:52:48.000 Watch Charlie Kirk, American Martyr, and help bring more stories of faith, courage, and conviction to audiences around the world.
00:52:56.000 All right, joining us now is Chloe Cole, one of our favorite guests on the show.
00:53:02.000 Charlie used to always love having Chloe on.
00:53:03.000 She's a detransitioner and an advocate for children and for families.
00:53:08.000 She's amazing.
00:53:08.000 She speaks at our events all the time, visits college campuses, and Gets into a bunch of trouble with crazy left wing lunatics, and we love her for it.
00:53:17.000 Chloe, welcome back to the show.
00:53:18.000 It's good to see you.
00:53:19.000 Andrew, great to see you.
00:53:20.000 Thanks for having me.
00:53:21.000 And you just had a birthday, right?
00:53:21.000 Of course.
00:53:23.000 Yes, I did.
00:53:24.000 It was actually my 22nd yesterday.
00:53:26.000 Yeah, you turned 22.
00:53:29.000 Well, I was curious about it because I think your Twitter still says 21, so you just got to update that.
00:53:35.000 Ooh, that's a good reminder to share.
00:53:36.000 Exactly.
00:53:37.000 So happy birthday.
00:53:38.000 And I thought of you because there's this crazy story out of Minnesota, which, of course, Minnesota, as Turned into ground zero for every woke, just ridiculous policy you could imagine.
00:53:52.000 And it's called My Gender Dolls.
00:53:54.000 So these researchers, researchers, they're activists with a PhD next to their name at the University of Minnesota.
00:54:03.000 They have been developing these trans-identified, trans dolls.
00:54:08.000 I don't know what you even call them, gender-confused dolls.
00:54:11.000 Maybe that's a better way to put it.
00:54:12.000 I'll just play the clip and we'll go from there.
00:54:14.000 SOT 12.
00:54:15.000 And I'm excited to talk to you about a project we've been working on at the National Center for Gender Spectrum Health called My Gender Dolls.
00:54:23.000 These dolls were designed by transgender and gender diverse artists.
00:54:26.000 They are intended to be a therapeutic tool for transgender and gender diverse kids to explore how they see themselves or how they'd like to see themselves in terms of gender identity and gender expression.
00:54:38.000 Along with the choice of bodies, the My Gender Dolls also include genitals.
00:54:42.000 This is important because kids can learn that all gender identities and gender expressions are valid no matter how your body looks.
00:54:50.000 There are lots of different ways to be a girl, a boy, or anywhere along a gender spectrum.
00:54:55.000 All right, Chloe.
00:54:56.000 So, as somebody that has gone through this process and come out the other side and now advocates against it, how damaging is it?
00:55:04.000 These are apparently for four to 10 year olds, they're designed for four year olds.
00:55:09.000 How damaging is it to a child's psyche to be even talking about their gender at four years old?
00:55:16.000 I mean, this is something that is bringing a lot of disgust, a lot of shock to a lot of people, rightfully so, because anybody who's sane will recognize that this is a violation of children's innocence to lie to them.
00:55:29.000 About human design, about the way that God made us, and then to tell them that they were born in the wrong body, and the only way they can fix that is by going through what basically amounts to medical experimentation.
00:55:39.000 And as somebody who once was part of the transgender community myself and went through that childhood abuse under the guise of gender affirming care, I know exactly why they are targeting children so hard.
00:55:51.000 This is, I mean, for one, it's an ideology of people who are, I mean, the most prominent ideologues are people who.
00:55:58.000 Are unable to reproduce themselves because they've taken upon these treatments.
00:56:02.000 Some of them were young, and so if they can't reproduce, if they can't have children of their own to push this ideology onto, they're going to target the children of the people who are healthy and are able to have kids of their own.
00:56:14.000 And what better way to teach children and indoctrinate them through the way that they know how to learn best, which is through play, through the use of adults?
00:56:21.000 And one of the core tenets of transgender ideology is that this is an innate condition that transgender people cannot help being the way that they are, that it's not just a mental health issue.
00:56:31.000 And that the earlier you catch somebody in an attempt to change their sex, the better.
00:56:35.000 Yeah.
00:56:36.000 And that's, I mean, I think that point can't be underscored enough that these are children that don't know that the tooth fairy isn't real or that the Easter bunny isn't real.
00:56:46.000 And they're being basically handed over a grooming tool that tells them that their body is wrong, that God made them in the wrong body, and that it's okay if they want to be a girl and they're a boy or vice versa.
00:57:02.000 That is grooming.
00:57:03.000 Behavior that is predatory behavior, and what makes it all the more obscene to me is that these are researchers who are receiving taxpayer funded grants to advance something that is this abusive and harmful to little kids.
00:57:19.000 They're dressing it up as if they say, What do they say?
00:57:23.000 We're making gender fun.
00:57:25.000 No, you're making it sick, and you're actually abusing little kids.
00:57:30.000 I can't say that enough.
00:57:33.000 These kids are not in any position to be learning or talking about this stuff.
00:57:37.000 They should be having fun and playing outside and touching grass.
00:57:42.000 This is where it gets even more nefarious, though.
00:57:44.000 Tim Waltz has a role to play in this.
00:57:48.000 He's famously pushed pro transgender policies in Minnesota, but he was bestowed the same institute.
00:57:56.000 He was bestowed with the institute's inaugural Distinguished Sexual and Gender Health Champion Award in 2023, a title they created just for him.
00:58:05.000 We've got a picture of him with that, accepting the reward, $179.
00:58:10.000 As you can see, this is him posing for an award from these people.
00:58:16.000 And by the way, one of the people that is the creators of this doll is pictured in that, and that would be Nick Ryder, who is a PhD LP and LP of My Gender Doll.
00:58:27.000 So they're trying to monetize this now.
00:58:30.000 And if you look at this person, I guess it's a they, them, their bio, it's really, really sick.
00:58:38.000 So this is a sociologist, a psychologist, rather.
00:58:44.000 At the Eli Coleman Institute for Sexual and Gender Health.
00:58:48.000 And their professional interests are in areas of intersectionality, improving various health disparities, sexual health, and pleasure, which is ironic because a lot of kids that get this procedure done or trans surgeries can no longer experience sexual pleasure when they're older.
00:59:07.000 Decolonizing healing justice, whatever that means, systems change, and social justice advocacy.
00:59:16.000 Okay, so this is one of the inventors of this.
00:59:18.000 That is an.
00:59:19.000 That is the description of an activist who is cloaked in the language of academia and goes by they, them, theirs pronouns.
00:59:27.000 Chloe, in your experience, how much of the science around this is basically just activism?
00:59:36.000 It's a warped ideology.
00:59:37.000 I mean, how many of the people that you've seen that advocate for this stuff have totally perverse personal lives and weird fixations and they cloak it in this academic language?
00:59:49.000 I think on every single level, Physically, emotionally, psychologically, to do this to any child, to do this to anybody who is confused about their sex and to refuse to give them proper counsel and instead push them down this lifelong route of confusion and experimentation, that is abuse under the guise of activism and love for these people.
01:00:13.000 I find it incredibly insulting that they're using these terms like making gender identity fun because realizing that you regret.
01:00:21.000 Every single part of the last few years of your life that you've lost your fertility, you've lost parts of your sexuality and your identity for life is not fun.
01:00:30.000 It's something that I and thousands of other children are going to have to grapple with for the rest of our lives.
01:00:36.000 You mentioned that they cloak it in this language like they love you, they care, they're the ones that really care about you.
01:00:42.000 And I've noticed in life that so often the predators are the ones that use that language the con artists, the scam artists, the snake oil salesmen.
01:00:51.000 They're the ones that will claim that they are your best friend, that they are here for you to help you.
01:00:56.000 In your personal experience, is that the way they talk to you that it was cloaked in concern for your well being?
01:01:02.000 Yeah, they use all of these rosy terms like gender affirming care, top surgery, bottom surgery, loving people for who they truly are in order to rope you in.
01:01:12.000 That's how they convince people into this in the first place.
01:01:15.000 That's how they get people like my parents who are well meaning to allow their children to do things that go against their very instincts by telling them, your child literally cannot live without this.
01:01:25.000 This is who they are, and they cannot change that.
01:01:27.000 And the longer that you go, Without allowing them to be who they truly are, the more likely you are pushing them into suicide.
01:01:35.000 And that is exactly why we have to investigate these clinics, these activists who are pushing this on our children, and make sure that the doctors who do this are all held to account and make sure through legislation and culturally this never happens to any child ever again in the United States.
01:01:51.000 Yeah, that point you just made where they emotionally manipulate parents by holding out the specter of your child's going to commit suicide if you don't do X, Y, and Z. Literally chop off their genitalia, or if you don't, you know, chop off the breasts, whatever it is.
01:02:07.000 I mean, I know that it's extraordinarily traumatic, probably still to even think about, but you know, from your parents' perspective, 30 seconds, what, when they talk now about that, what are they telling you?
01:02:23.000 Like, what was that like for them to be a parent in that position?
01:02:26.000 They tell me all the time that they wish the doctors told them that we had another option, that we didn't have to do this, and that they didn't lie to them the way that they did, but they are very grateful that.
01:02:35.000 Not only have I been able to come out of it, but also to be able to use our story as a family to make sure that other families do not have to go through what we did.
01:02:43.000 Yeah, I just can't imagine.
01:02:44.000 And God bless your parents too, because it's so obvious in the way you talk about them that you care about them and that they care about you and that they were just trying their best.
01:02:52.000 And there's so many parents out there that have been caught in this that probably just thought they were trying their best.
01:02:58.000 I mean, if a doctor comes to you, somebody you're supposed to trust, and they say your kid's going to commit suicide if you don't do this, I mean, what?
01:03:05.000 You just can't imagine the excruciating, terrible choices in front of parents like that.
01:03:11.000 I just got to give a few more details on this story because it's so bizarre.
01:03:15.000 The paper dolls with gender neutral names like Sam.
01:03:20.000 Rory, Avery, and Parker have removable internal and external genitalia, along with more than 100 interchangeable pieces of clothing, accessories, and hairstyle.
01:03:31.000 Think of it like a trans Mr. and Mrs. Potato Head.
01:03:36.000 The goal is for kids to, quote, learn about the different options that exist for who they can be, end quote, according to a therapist at the University of Minnesota, who spent over a half a decade developing the project funded by their government.
01:03:50.000 And now they're monetizing it.
01:03:51.000 So now they're sending it to schools, Chloe.
01:03:54.000 Yep.
01:03:55.000 See, you can be anything.
01:03:57.000 You can be any variation of the six to 600 different sex permutations that these people believe in.
01:04:04.000 And it's all good.
01:04:05.000 We're making gender fun.
01:04:07.000 It will be made available to teachers, school counselors, pediatrician, and mental health providers, according to a website for My Gender Dolls.
01:04:17.000 Okay.
01:04:18.000 And by the way, their website features an image of a boy doll wearing a dress and others in various states of sexual identity confusion.
01:04:26.000 There they are broadcasting, showcasing their new product to the marketplace.
01:04:32.000 It's just so wrong.
01:04:33.000 It's so inappropriate and it's so gross.
01:04:37.000 And I just can't get over the fact that we're still dealing with this.
01:04:40.000 And this is where my question leads, Chloe.
01:04:42.000 So we thought President Trump won, woke is dead.
01:04:47.000 We like to say on the show, woke is not dead, it's just dormant or it's still very active in these blue enclaves.
01:04:54.000 Give us an update across the country.
01:04:56.000 Where are we seeing wins and where is there still a lot of work left to do?
01:04:59.000 I get incredibly frustrated whenever I hear people say, like, oh, woke is dead.
01:05:04.000 We've completely defeated all the demons and Trump has won.
01:05:07.000 And in many aspects, yes, we've won.
01:05:10.000 We've had 26 states over the years pass legislation to protect children from this in some form.
01:05:15.000 We're having federal legislation like the Chloe Cole Act being proposed that recently passed through committee, actually, and will seek to not just protect a select few children in a few different states, but federally, all across the board, through all 50 states.
01:05:31.000 Ban this treatment, ban this abuse for kids, and make sure that every kid who's already been harmed gets a private right to action.
01:05:39.000 And we have a lot of motion moving in the culture as well, as well as a lot of investigations.
01:05:43.000 But gender transition for children has not gone away.
01:05:48.000 These clinics and these ideologues have only found better ways of hiding it from us.
01:05:52.000 Give us some examples.
01:05:54.000 How are they hiding it from us?
01:05:55.000 Because we see this with DEI, for example.
01:05:57.000 The schools say they got rid of DEI, but they just changed the name.
01:06:00.000 And that's how they skirt responsibility and accountability.
01:06:03.000 What are they doing on this?
01:06:04.000 Right.
01:06:05.000 A lot of these schools will have policy changes that are as simple as changing the name of a program so that they can just get away with it.
01:06:12.000 And we have recorded cases of hospitals like, I believe, Texas Children's committing fraud, basically committing insurance fraud by saying that these children don't have a mental health issue, that they have an endocrine issue that is otherwise unspecified in order to continue the abuse and the medical experimentation on them.
01:06:30.000 But there also are cases like these so called gender dolls where they are doing it out in the open, loud and proud.
01:06:36.000 Because they know they can, because they're being protected by the state, because they have governors like Tim Waltz who are actively pushing for this.
01:06:43.000 For as long as this is legal anywhere in the States, as long as it's encouraged anywhere by anybody in power, no child in the U.S. is going to be safe until we take the industry down ourselves.
01:06:55.000 I want to throw up 148.
01:06:57.000 This is from My Gender Dolls.
01:06:59.000 It says, A new play based therapeutic approach for trans and gender diverse children and the clinicians who support them.
01:07:07.000 We make gender fun.
01:07:09.000 Our award winning dolls, I wonder who gave them an award, maybe themselves.
01:07:13.000 And service our community informed, research driven, culturally attuned, and grounded in gender affirming clinical practice.
01:07:20.000 And this is the part that really caught me off guard.
01:07:22.000 Join the wait list.
01:07:24.000 They have a wait list for this.
01:07:26.000 So when we're talking about is woke dead, is some of this gender insanity dead?
01:07:32.000 No, no, no.
01:07:33.000 There's a whole army of people that are involved with your children that completely support this, and they're joining a wait list to get.
01:07:43.000 These trans dolls in your kids' classroom.
01:07:47.000 This has not gone away.
01:07:49.000 This needs to be illegal.
01:07:51.000 And the question then becomes how do we best achieve that end?
01:07:55.000 Now, tell us more about the Chloe Cole Act.
01:07:58.000 Who's sponsoring it and what would it achieve?
01:08:00.000 So, the Chloe Cole Act was implemented by, was written by Representative Bob Onder of Missouri.
01:08:09.000 And it's, as I said earlier, it seeks to ban this treatment across all 50 states and all territories of the U.S. and make it so bad.
01:08:18.000 Is it surgery and therapeutics, or what does it ban?
01:08:22.000 Every single aspect of the transition process from the medical, the affirmation, the use of surgeries, the use of hormone treatments and blockers.
01:08:34.000 And it makes it so that I believe there is about a 20 or so year period after the minor turns 18 or after they first discover that they regret this and want to detransition, want to see damages for what they've been through.
01:08:47.000 Which is something that is very desperately needed right now because I have many friends who have cases of their own.
01:08:53.000 I'm currently in a lawsuit of my own right now with Kaiser, and many of these cases are being thrown out on the basis of statute of limitations or people aren't even able to sue or get justice for things that they went through at very tender ages because in many states, the statute of limitations for treatments in hospitals is as little as two to three years.
01:09:13.000 And that is not nearly enough when we are abusing children and confusing them for life.
01:09:17.000 Yeah, isn't that very convenient for them?
01:09:19.000 So they get a young kid, 10, 12 years old, maybe four in this case.
01:09:25.000 They medically mutilate them, they psychologically abuse them and brainwash them.
01:09:31.000 And then it takes a little while, understandably, in any of these cases, to figure out what has been done to them, that they have been victimized by these absolute monsters that call themselves PhDs and researchers and clinical psychologists or whatever.
01:09:48.000 And then they get off scot free because it takes young people like yourself that detransition a certain amount of time to figure that out and to come out of that.
01:09:57.000 Because when you spend so much of your formative years as a child going down a road to hell, it takes you a little while to turn it around and figure things out.
01:10:06.000 So I totally support that, by the way.
01:10:08.000 I think that's brilliant, extending the statute of limitations on these lawsuits, because I genuinely believe that the way you really take these people out is you sue them into oblivion.
01:10:18.000 If you start getting lawsuits from all these kids speaking up and you get a whole infrastructure around that, you will stop them in their tracks.
01:10:26.000 They will not want the financial liabilities that come with it.
01:10:29.000 It would just be simply too risky.
01:10:31.000 So I love that approach and I'm glad you're pursuing it.
01:10:34.000 Chloe Cole, detransitioner, an advocate, and a brave voice on college campuses, on social media, in the media in general.
01:10:43.000 Thank you, Chloe.
01:10:44.000 You're the best.
01:10:44.000 It's so great to see you and happy birthday.
01:10:46.000 Thank you so much for having me again.
01:10:52.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.