00:00:56.000Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of The Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals.
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00:02:04.000And it was titled Young Adults Are Poor Despite Every Metric Which Suggests Otherwise.
00:02:11.000And it's all about concepts Charlie would love about loss of social capital and how everything, you know, we're superficially very rich, but everything feels more expensive.
00:02:20.000And this is the $20 burrito show, obviously.
00:02:24.000But it's not even just the $20 burrito, it's so much deeper than that.
00:02:27.000And so that's why I'm so excited to have him on.
00:02:29.000So, Johan Kurtz, I believe we have him there.
00:02:32.000If there's any delay, I think he's joining us from far away.
00:02:36.000But, Johan, thank you for joining the program.
00:02:45.000You say, okay, you might look at the data and it says salaries are really high, and people complain about prices, but prices of food haven't gone up.
00:02:54.000You can have the economics experts come out and debate this, but at a core level, why does it feel like the core goals people have in life, marriage, family, kids, community, they feel way more out of reach than they did for your parents' generation, or especially your grandparents' and great grandparents' generation?
00:03:18.000I think part of it is the strongest arguments against the position I'm going to take would be something like real income, so inflation adjusted incomes for young people have risen substantially over the last few decades.
00:03:30.000And unemployment is at low levels across the West and America and my own country as well.
00:03:36.000The problem is that when you dive into exactly how that inflation is calculated, when you disaggregate it across different baskets of goods, what you find is that the things which have become much cheaper.
00:03:49.000Which suggests to us that we are better off than ever tend to be disposable goods, tend to be pleasurable goods.
00:04:02.000Ironically, that's often touted as something that has got cheaper, perhaps not in the last few months.
00:04:09.000But on the other hand, the things that have unquestionably become more expensive, and it's very difficult, even if you're on the other side of this argument, to statistically rebut these elements, are the elements of an essential family life.
00:04:20.000People who want to have children, people who want to get married, people who want to build something greater than themselves.
00:04:26.000These are the cost of homes, both in terms of rent and in terms of the affordability of.
00:04:33.000This is the cost of life insurance, childcare, education, these essential aspects of moving through the kind of core pillars of a responsible adult life, as an American society has always understood it.
00:04:49.000You know, completing your studies, entering into a stable job, finding a spouse, getting married, having children, and buying a home.
00:04:58.000Those are the things that have become more difficult than ever to achieve.
00:05:02.000And, you know, what's more is that not only have these things become more expensive in definite terms, but a lot of the things that helped us along the road to get there, or in tangible sense, what I describe in my piece as social capital, which perhaps we can discuss more on, that has truly collapsed as well.
00:05:22.000And that's more difficult to capture in the statistics.
00:05:24.000So I was attempting to give a nuanced expression to the combination of these factors as something that really is, unlike, you know, the people who sort of wave away the concerns, something that.
00:05:36.000That definitely is a hard barrier to overcome, not an insurmountable barrier, but a set of very hard barriers for people who have grander aspirations than their own pleasure.
00:05:45.000Well, so I think that social capital thing is interesting.
00:05:48.000So, for our viewers who don't know, financial capital is money, dollars, and cents.
00:05:53.000But can you explain to them what social capital is, maybe with an example?
00:05:58.000I really liked in your part two follow up piece that you published on this, you talk about dating as an example, where dating is more expensive and more difficult.
00:06:08.000Because there's these invisible social capital factors that have receded.
00:06:12.000So, how about you explain social capital and you build out that example for people who haven't read your piece?
00:06:18.000So, how wealthy we feel, how able we are to acquire things and enact our will on the world depends on our ability to make use of capital.
00:06:28.000So, the classic example is financial capital how much money do I have in my bank?
00:06:33.000What are the assets that I control worth?
00:06:36.000Another classic example is human capital.
00:06:40.000You have more value in your life, and it's easier to generate wealth and effect if you are very highly educated, if you have specialist knowledge, if you have special training, which is rarefied and valued in the corporate world.
00:06:51.000And in addition to financial and human capital, there is something which is well understood as social capital.
00:06:57.000And this is value which inheres or exists in relationships, in communities, in networks, in the things which allow people to collaborate, to call upon each other, to trust each other.
00:07:08.000So when you hear people talking about a high trust society, That is an example of social capital delivering often a social good, but often an economic good too.
00:07:18.000It means that you can trust your counterparties.
00:07:20.000You don't have to involve lawyers and contracts and background checks and the police and so forth, litigation.
00:07:26.000And so social capital is a real factor in delivering you the life that you want.
00:07:33.000And my argument is that this social capital factor is extremely important when it comes to questions of where we choose to live, which neighborhoods are desirable to us, which would allow us to realize the life we want.
00:07:46.000The example you gave, which I think is a clear one, is in the dating market.
00:07:51.000So, traditionally, if you go back, you know, 50, 60, 70, and certainly further back in time, years, dating and finding potential spouses is something that emerges naturally out of a community.
00:08:05.000The West has never practiced arranged marriages, but it certainly had arranged meetings, you know, where friends would introduce friends to others, or you were introduced through church or through friends of the family, through different aspects of a rich community in which people knew each other and were able to tell who might be right for each other because they knew both parties well.
00:08:25.000Who could make an introduction because they understood both those people, their reputations, their prospects.
00:08:30.000They could make a kind of calculation.
00:08:33.000And that meant that when those two people met, they came together with the backing of reputation, with people vouching for them that they both trusted.
00:08:42.000If they had friends in common, they could get away with a kind of easy first encounter in which no one had to prove anything.
00:08:50.000Now we're moving into a time where dating emerges out of anonymous.
00:08:55.000Spaces and in those spaces, you have to prove yourself through expensive social signaling.
00:09:04.000I want to play CK on affordability and continue on with Johan here.
00:09:09.000The American dream has become a luxury item for the wealthy elite.
00:09:15.000Democrats have given hundreds of billions of dollars to illegals and foreign nations, while Gen Z has to pinch pennies just so that they can never own a home.
00:09:29.000Under Biden, our young people own nothing and they are miserable.
00:09:33.000That's Charlie saying the American dream has become a luxury item.
00:09:36.000And I think that's a really interesting point because it does feel like so many of the things that society just provided for free, you have to pay for, right?
00:09:44.000So this is what you say in your piece.
00:09:45.000My argument is that previous generations received an enormous stock of social capital, trusted neighbors, functional public schools, a productive courtship culture, predictable career arcs, and a public square in which children could roam and adults could be relied upon.
00:10:01.000That stock, once given for free, has now been substantially liquidated.
00:10:05.000And it strikes me some of those are things that, okay, if you make a lot of money, you could buy, you know, an approximation of them.
00:10:13.000Some of those things, I'm not sure you could necessarily obtain at all.
00:10:16.000No, I mean, especially the courtship culture.
00:10:22.000It's like you, you know, you used to go to the public park and you knew that everybody in the public park would be your neighbors, share your values.
00:10:28.000Now, I mean, this is my personal opinion, Johan.
00:10:31.000You don't have to agree with it, but now you have a bunch of.
00:10:34.000That you don't necessarily share their values, their language, their religion, things like that have gotten more expensive.
00:10:40.000So now you have to pay to take them to, you know, for my kids, we take them to an indoor slide park or whatever, and that costs $150.
00:10:46.000You, you know, you talk about courtship culture.
00:10:50.000Now you have to peacock on your first date instead of, you know, your mom or auntie across the way going, he has great prospects for the future.
00:11:14.000There are differences, of course, but one of the things that there isn't a big gap in is, for example, intact families.
00:11:22.000Will I be sending my child to a school if I go for the less expensive option to a place where families as a concept has just broken down, where most people are living in the context of a mother and a father in a Christian home, and the unit is intact?
00:11:41.000Now, that difference is really different.
00:11:44.000So, back then, 85% of families at your local public school would have lived in that atomic structure.
00:11:51.000And that meant that that was a genuine option for you.
00:11:54.000And now the divergence between public school and private school in most of the US is really tremendous.
00:12:00.000And this compounds out across, you know, if you look at the upper class versus the lower classes, church attendance is different.
00:12:07.000All kinds of measures of social health are different.
00:12:09.000And so you can say, well, you know, the cost of certain kinds of school might not have gone up.
00:12:13.000By the way, it has, even in real terms, massively for private school.
00:12:18.000But What is essential to recognize is that you're not even paying for the same thing.
00:12:24.000The fact that the actual composition of who is at your school, how are they living?
00:12:28.000Are they living according to a moral milieu that you would want to embed your children in?
00:12:33.000These things have substantially changed.
00:12:34.000And so that is, again, this example of social capital coming in and basically demanding that you replace something that was once provided for free with very expensive outlays of financial capital to send your child to an expensive school.
00:12:51.000The same is, as you were alluding to, true for your neighborhood.
00:12:54.000You know, people now decry helicopter parenting, not letting children out of your sight.
00:12:59.000The fact is that helicopter parenting is a rational response if you live in a neighborhood where you don't understand the values of your neighbors, if you don't know them well, if you don't know what they think about children and how they should be raised and what it is appropriate to teach a child, let alone security concerns in some neighborhoods as well.
00:13:18.000And so, as you sort of alluded to at that point, well, now we need to.
00:13:23.000We need to get a bigger backyard so that they can play outside because I don't trust them alone in the local park.
00:13:29.000We need to get another car because I'm going to be driving them to school every day because they can't walk to school.
00:13:35.000The number of children who walk to school every day in America has collapsed over the last 70 years.
00:13:42.000And I need to be sending them to summer school and I need to be sending them, exactly as you said, to the water park and so forth.
00:13:48.000All of this is because not only have these things become more expensive, they've become more necessary.
00:13:54.000Because of this collapse in social capital, the loss of a common understanding of the common good and how it is appropriate to behave in public and how it is appropriate to raise and treat children.
00:14:07.000So, as a father of three, I can tell you specifically what you're talking about.
00:14:11.000Do I trust my neighbors to share my values when it comes to my Christian values?
00:14:17.000What is appropriate or inappropriate to teach my children or to expose them to?
00:14:22.000So, when you find other friends that you trust, It doesn't matter if they live across the street now.
00:14:29.000You're going to go out and you need that extra car to drive your kids to the parents' house that you trust because it's that important.
00:14:36.000And it affects the way that you let them interact with the neighborhood around them.
00:15:10.000Changes in the economy from the end of the medieval era to the modern era and the locus of economic production leaving the home presented a real and inevitable challenge, technologically and economically speaking, to these.
00:15:25.000Immigration, certainly a policy choice.
00:15:28.000Some of these are misguided, sort of personal movements and the collapse of.
00:15:34.000Religion of the various denominations of Christianity is an example there.
00:15:39.000So, I think we have what we need to reconstitute, but it's going to be a long journey.
00:15:45.000Before he ever stepped onto a debate stage or behind a microphone, Charlie understood something really important that if you want to lead, you first have to learn.
00:15:55.000Charlie believed that ideas shape character, conviction, and courage.
00:15:58.000That's why he spent years studying the classics, the American founding, and the Bible through Hillsdale College's free online courses.
00:16:05.000He would rave about these courses all the time.
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00:16:30.000It tells the story of Achilles as he confronts injustice, rage, grief, responsibility, and the terrible costs of war.
00:16:37.000But Homer's epic is more than a story of ancient battles, it raises enduring questions about courage, duty, and leadership.
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00:17:59.000People really like what Johan has to say.
00:18:01.000Johan, you mentioned immigration, and you're, I believe, a Londoner, American kind of, but you're a true citizen of the world, it sounds like.
00:18:12.000But immigration to me, we call it the fix everything switch.
00:18:20.000The fact that people don't understand this, I actually had this conversation with Chris Cuomo.
00:18:23.000On his podcast a couple days ago, and I got to find it and clip it up and get it on social media.
00:18:28.000But we were talking about the fact that even if you go back to the first immigration waves, the 1880s and so forth, and we started getting a lot more Italians, we started getting a lot more Irish, the amount of consternation and stress that put culturally on America was extreme.
00:18:44.000And people don't remember that, they misremember it because after the Great Depression, after World War I and II, there was a binding effect, right?
00:18:51.000Everybody sort of saw themselves as triumphant victors of these world wars.
00:18:55.000It brought the America that we now know.
00:19:48.000So I'm going to answer the question about immigration directly.
00:19:50.000Give me 30 seconds to go on a tangent to explain how I'm going to answer it.
00:19:55.000One thing that is very important for the establishment of valuable social capital are what are called multiplex relationships.
00:20:02.000Multiplex relationships are ones that take place over more than one context.
00:20:07.000So you have a multiplex relationship with someone if their kid is at your school.
00:20:11.000You go to the same church, you live in the same neighborhood, maybe you do business together.
00:20:16.000So, there are many dimensions to your relationship with another person.
00:20:20.000A simplex relationship is one in which you only have a single narrow focus in your relationship with them.
00:20:25.000Typically, a professional transaction with someone who you just hire and then don't speak to again is a simplex relationship.
00:20:33.000Valuable social capital that meaningfully changes your life by being a part of it is multiplex because you can do things like if you need a nanny.
00:20:43.000And your daughter and your neighbor, who you know really well because they're at your church and you know them from your street and so forth, has a 14 year old and you trust how they've raised her, you might hire her as a nanny rather than going to a professional service.
00:20:57.000Essentially, the more dimensionality there is to a relationship, the more trust, the more opportunity to give and receive favors.
00:21:04.000Maybe you give one in one context and you're happy to do that, knowing that you will receive one back in a totally different context because one opportunity will come somewhere down the line.
00:21:13.000So, this multiplexity, this density of relationships is essential.
00:21:17.000For meaningful social capital that really actually makes you feel wealthy and empowered and effective.
00:21:24.000Immigration really challenges that, even when done with the best of intentions, even in diverse communities with really lovely people.
00:21:32.000Robert Putnam, who is possibly the most important American social scientist, the kind of giant of sociology of the 20th and early 21st century, suppressed, he's something of a liberal, he suppressed his findings on this issue for a long time because he was so uncomfortable with them.
00:21:50.000The most important study that's relevant here is called E Pluribus Unum.
00:21:54.000It's a comprehensive study of the effect of immigration on social trust and engagement, as expressed in volunteering, organizational membership, church membership, how much time you spend watching TV, these kind of things.
00:22:09.000It was assumed before he conducted this study that one of two things was true.
00:22:14.000There was what was called contact theory, that diversity is actually largely in people's imagination, and when they meet new people, And they learn about them, they actually realize that they have a lot in common and that contact between groups reduces tension.
00:22:30.000There was also conflict theory, which suggests that when two groups meet, both of them retreat into their own ethnic identity and other the other group, as it were.
00:22:42.000What Putnam found in this huge, huge study, you know, 30,000 survey respondents and so forth, is actually a third thing, which is that in more diverse settings, By very large orders of magnitude, even when you control aggressively for confounding factors, more diverse settings don't produce either conflict or contact in the ways previously described.
00:23:06.000They just cause everyone to retreat into a private life.
00:23:09.000It's not like people start associating more with their own ethnicity or their own group, as it were.
00:23:32.000It's a real challenge to the formation of multiplex networks when we have so little in common.
00:23:39.000We can really only transact and help each other along very narrow lines.
00:23:44.000As you compound this out and you start to recognize that different groups have different political orientations, there are certain immigrant groups that are steadfastly Democrat always, and they will always remain that way.
00:23:56.000They are markedly opposed to, for example, Second Amendment issues.
00:24:02.000These things become very difficult to reconcile because all of these relationships are reduced to these very thin, instrumental things rather than these rich, multiplex, complex systems of gift and reward and traversing context.
00:24:18.000And the sense that you really share every aspect of a life with another family, such that you're willing to make deep sacrifices and put yourself in positions of tremendous vulnerability because you trust them and understand them so deeply.
00:25:01.000You caught me in between essays, but I'll give it my best shot.
00:25:04.000The answer is it's going to be wickedly hard.
00:25:07.000Once the social fabric has degraded to a certain extent, it is basically rational for everyone to retreat from it.
00:25:15.000Because, simply put, if I go to a professional service to hire my babysitter, I will at least know that the babysitter has undergone a professional background check, she's babysat before, etc., etc.
00:25:27.000There is some level of professionalization there.
00:25:29.000If I don't know my neighbor well, I simply can't rely on them to provide someone to step in instead.
00:25:35.000And so that makes this very difficult.
00:25:37.000Because every time you retreat from participation in these mutual networks of obligation, it makes the social fabric thinner for everyone from there on out.
00:25:46.000I think the answer, at least at a personal level, has to be you have to make sure, even if it means moving, that you are embedded in a community that you are willing to make sacrifices for, because this will be uncomfortable at first.
00:25:59.000You will have to be more active in hosting, in entertaining, in throwing your weight behind churches and civic institutions, and you won't get a lot back.
00:26:12.000And that can only be justified in the context where you really believe it's worth suffering for a particular community and you have faith that other people in that community are similar enough to you across a diverse range of issues and existence that they will start participating if they're not already.
00:26:28.000There are some places in the country that are really active on this issue and they're intentional communities.
00:26:35.000Typically, they're very religious across one of the denominations.
00:26:40.000And I think we should double down on that.
00:26:42.000At a national level, It's some pretty bitter pills to swallow.
00:26:48.000I do think immigration is a huge problem.
00:26:51.000I think things that artificially push women out of domestic settings and into the labor force should be seriously reconsidered.
00:27:03.000Putnam has these fascinating statistics.
00:27:06.000And again, he's liberal, he's kind of uncomfortable foregrounding them.
00:27:11.000But for example, woman's volunteering outside the home drops by 50% when she enters the labor force.
00:27:17.000And she, in fact, they, The family hosts less, they spend less time with their children and so forth.
00:27:24.000So, it's a pretty tough range of policy issues, maybe unpopular, but necessary to start rebuilding.
00:27:35.000This summer marks three years since the Dobbs decision.
00:27:38.000And since then, the total number of abortions each year has only increased.
00:27:41.000With greater access to telehealth and abortion pills in the mail, medication abortions now account for more than 60% of all abortion, and that number is only growing.
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00:29:01.000What's going on here is Joe Biden wants a couple hundred thousand more Ilhan Omar's to come into America to change the body politic permanently.
00:29:12.000We're playing checkers and they're playing chess.
00:29:14.000That's an old clip from Charlie talking about changing the body politic.
00:29:19.000And Johann Kurtz has, I think, as well as anybody I've heard, explained why that is so costly.
00:29:24.000So deep, why it's so expensive, actually.
00:29:33.000In the break, who said, Short answer to the problem, church.
00:29:37.000And I think that's clearly a big part of it.
00:29:39.000You discussed that in your pieces, Johan.
00:29:41.000But I want to discuss another thing because I want another chance to shout out more of your work.
00:29:44.000You're also the author of the book, Leaving a Legacy.
00:29:49.000And it's about sort of multi, you say, thousand year families.
00:29:53.000Yeah, let's see, inheritance, charity, and thousand year families.
00:29:57.000And so it's about, I guess, basically treating your family not just as your nuclear family unit, Have the courage to imagine yourself as a dynasty that will last into the future.
00:30:09.000So let's relate it to what the articles we've been talking about the rest of this hour.
00:30:15.000What is the message of your book and how does it relate to this phenomenon of building social capital and building community long term?
00:30:22.000Yeah, well, if I had to connect the two, I would say something like this kind of crisis of ephemerality, this crisis of things dissolving, is present in the social space.
00:30:33.000It's also present in the financial space.
00:30:36.000Victor Hagani and James White, they're two hedge fund guys out of New York, have this very interesting book called The Missing Billionaires.
00:30:42.000And one of the things they point out in there is that if you took the single cohort of the thousand wealthiest families in the US in 1900 and you projected out their returns, if they just made average investments, they'd reproduced at the normal rate, they would have given rise to 16,000 billionaire families today.
00:31:03.000But there are only sort of 900 billionaire families in the US at the moment.
00:31:07.000And that 16,000 would have come from one cohort alone.
00:31:10.000At one point in time in the greatest century of wealth creation in history.
00:31:14.000And so, what is happening at the moment is this tremendous explosion of wealth creation in the abstract, which we are completely unable to capture and preserve in families.
00:31:25.000This principle of shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations, of families completely flailing while trying to learn how to preserve their children's virtue against the temptations of wealth and materialism, which have beset us for the last 150 years.
00:31:47.000I think the initial provocation was this incredibly viral Twitter post a couple of years ago where Simon Cowell announced he was disinheriting his son, that he was giving away his 500 million pound fortune to various charities.
00:32:01.000I think one of the two he named was a dog charity.
00:32:05.000And everyone reacted with outrage, but they didn't, you know, my observation was that I think it's right to be outraged in that setting, but they didn't necessarily have a moral or theological language to explain why.
00:32:16.000It is, in fact, sometimes wrong to give your wealth to charity rather than your own children.
00:32:21.000Like, what's the use, right, in creating a trust fund child?
00:32:24.000And so the book is really a defense of multi generational wealth, its place in society, and how to orient children raised in the context of wealth and affluence towards virtue, towards understanding that they have a burden of stewardship.
00:32:42.000Because this is an incredibly rich Western tradition.
00:32:45.000You know, there are many great projects, the aspects of our culture and history that we are incredibly.
00:32:51.000Proud of that exist because they were stewarded over generations by great families with the wealth to patronize them and with a continuity of faith and belief.
00:33:51.000Will they be focused on the common good?
00:33:53.000These are the questions that elites, the burden that they must bear.
00:33:57.000And so I love what you're saying here.
00:33:58.000Do you want your elite to be whoever happens to be running the Aspen Institute this year?
00:34:04.000Or do you want your elite potentially to be this dynasty that's been in America for 200 years and they have a business that they're associated with and they care about leaving it to their children?
00:34:16.000I think that's what you're getting at there.
00:34:19.000I mean, if you look at a place like Boston, for example, you had a social milieu called the Boston Brahmin, which emerged out of the kind of early.
00:34:48.000They, you know, installed bells and churches.
00:34:52.000And it was the presence of that multi generational, true elite.
00:34:57.000And I mean that not in the, you know, we live in a time of very degraded elites, I would argue, but these were men.
00:35:03.000In many cases, imperfect, but many of them were men of deep faith who understood, like John Hancock, who's a great hero of the book and of myself, the founding father of the United States, that their wealth did not exist as an independent good.
00:35:18.000It existed as a tool to exert Christ's will on earth.
00:35:23.000And there are these amazing passages in the history of a man like John Hancock where he says to George Washington, he says, All my wealth is bound up in property.
00:35:52.000And that wealth is a tool, it's not an end unto itself.
00:35:57.000It always carries the temptation to corrupt, but it is a force multiplier.
00:36:02.000And in the hands of a virtuous steward, Who understands himself as beholden to God and has been entrusted with a powerful tool to serve the Lord's will?
00:36:13.000It is one of very few instruments that can really meaningfully change the world.
00:36:19.000And the alternative is giving it all the way to a quote unquote charity.
00:36:23.000These are not charities in the traditional Christian sense.
00:36:28.000These are philanthropic organizations, which is a kind of secular, humanist, bureaucratic, professional managerial structure, which are typically oriented towards things that I find really problematic.
00:36:39.000We've got to wrap it up, but everybody needs to check out his Substack, Becoming Noble, and get his book.