The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1612 - Robert Bigelow

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00:00:04.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

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00:00:13.000 Hello, Mr. Bigelow.

00:00:15.000 Hello, good morning.

00:00:15.000 Good afternoon.

00:00:16.000 Yeah, pleasure to meet you.

00:00:17.000 Pleasure to get to talk to you, and I really appreciate you coming on here.

00:00:20.000 My pleasure.

00:00:22.000 You and I have some shared interests, clearly, in the world of UFOs, but I want to talk.

00:00:29.000 Most people know of you because of Bigelow Aerospace.

00:00:32.000 They know that you're this billionaire investor, and you're a very successful businessman, but you have a deep fascination with UFOs.

00:00:43.000 Yeah.

00:00:44.000 Yeah, sure do.

00:00:45.000 How did this all get started?

00:00:50.000 Back when I was about three years old, which would be about 1947, Actually, in May of that year, my grandparents had a very close encounter that was dramatic.

00:01:04.000 They were taking an evening drive in the late afternoon up into the mountains and coming on back down to Las Vegas.

00:01:14.000 And they saw what appeared to be at first an airplane on fire.

00:01:18.000 And the object became closer and closer to them and they pulled off to the side of the road.

00:01:26.000 And at one point then it filled up the windshield and they thought they were going to die.

00:01:30.000 And at the last second it shot off and disappeared.

00:01:37.000 And I learned of this story when I was probably Ten years old, because I was three at the time, and my mother had told me this story.

00:01:51.000 So I approached my grandfather, and he wouldn't talk about it.

00:01:55.000 Now, after all these years, like seven years have gone by, because I was intrigued with it.

00:02:00.000 And so I went to my grandmother, and she only would say a few words, but she wouldn't talk.

00:02:06.000 So I got the story from my mom, and they...

00:02:12.000 My grandfather had to sit on the side of the road there in the car for a while to recompose himself because they thought they were going to die.

00:02:24.000 And then he finally was able to drive back to Las Vegas.

00:02:28.000 So that was the beginning for me.

00:02:30.000 Did he ever describe what...

00:02:31.000 You said it looked like a plane on fire, but what was the shape of it as it got closer?

00:02:36.000 I don't recall any kind of shape that my mother described.

00:02:41.000 I don't recall that.

00:02:43.000 But they just knew it wasn't a plane.

00:02:45.000 They knew it was something crazy.

00:02:46.000 That's right.

00:02:47.000 So in the family, the family had an event.

00:02:53.000 I lived right next door to my grandparents.

00:02:55.000 And the family had an event that kind of started things at that date.

00:03:00.000 For me, other personal things came later.

00:03:03.000 But for the family, that was a big deal.

00:03:06.000 So this was, you said 47?

00:03:08.000 47. And 47 was the time of the Roswell crash.

00:03:11.000 47 was a time there was a lot of UFO activity being observed worldwide.

00:03:16.000 And the speculation is that this had to do with the nuclear bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all the tests that United States had done and Russia had done and that there was a lot of interest.

00:03:32.000 Well, actually Russia hadn't dropped any bombs by that time, right?

00:03:35.000 Right.

00:03:36.000 It was after that. 1.00

00:03:36.000 But there was interest in our species by extraterrestrials because they were like, oh, these crazy assholes are detonating nukes. 1.00

00:03:45.000 Like, let's go take a look at them. 0.99

00:03:47.000 Right.

00:03:47.000 Well, you had so-called Foo Fighters during the war.

00:03:52.000 These lights that were following bombers and the tail gunners were the ones that saw them most often, of course.

00:03:59.000 And that happened through the war.

00:04:03.000 And then, of course, Roswell, but before that was Kent Arnold, right, in about June, June-ish.

00:04:10.000 And then in July 8th was Roswell.

00:04:15.000 And there's a direct uptick, though, from the Trinity experiments, right?

00:04:20.000 I think, yeah, I gather my feeling simply is that without any kind of other evidence or proof that that was a huge stimulus.

00:04:31.000 Yeah.

00:04:32.000 So this was around that time, and you had heard about this as a part of, you know, family discussions.

00:04:38.000 Right.

00:04:39.000 And so that sort of ignited the fire initially.

00:04:43.000 Yeah.

00:04:43.000 And I started asking my friends, as I say, when I was about 10, you know, have you...

00:04:49.000 Any reports in your family of anything?

00:04:51.000 And by golly, a couple of my close friends told me things that they had never told me before.

00:04:58.000 So, you know, that wasn't necessarily an exclusive event, is what I'm saying.

00:05:06.000 Other people in Las Vegas had seen things at close proximity as well.

00:05:13.000 Now, your relationship to this is obviously something that you've carried for so long.

00:05:18.000 It's been an obsession of yours for so long.

00:05:22.000 It started with this, but what personal experiences, if any, have you had?

00:05:28.000 Well, when I was probably seven or so, seven or eight, I used to have what I chalked up all my life to just being silly dreams.

00:05:40.000 And I had maybe five or six of these dreams and I could never make sense of them.

00:05:46.000 And I would be laying in bed on my side, and a typical dream, always the same.

00:05:53.000 There would be three short somebody, somethings, in a kind of monk robe, and so I couldn't see any face, couldn't see any appendages.

00:06:05.000 And these three whatevers were standing there, and they were not too far from my eye level, as far as the heights and so forth.

00:06:13.000 So these, like, child size?

00:06:15.000 Yeah.

00:06:16.000 And so there was nothing in the...

00:06:19.000 I was an avid comic book reader, but there was nothing in the whole genre of comic books that related to that or movies.

00:06:26.000 And we didn't have television in Las Vegas until 53 or 54. And even after that, it was terrible broadcasting, you know, at first.

00:06:36.000 But so it made no sense to me.

00:06:39.000 And so over my lifetime, I never mentioned it to anybody, including my wife.

00:06:44.000 It's funny how you keep things secret and just kind of for no good reason.

00:06:50.000 Maybe I would be embarrassed to talk about it.

00:06:54.000 But I finally thought, well, you know, maybe it was just dreams.

00:06:58.000 Maybe it was something else.

00:07:00.000 And so that was the first event personally that I had at that time in the subject.

00:07:07.000 When did you start to connect the idea of these tiny people or human-like things with extraterrestrials?

00:07:14.000 Well, years later, when I began to start my process as a researcher and as a student in the subject and began to talk with people who were Who made it their business to be experts in abductions.

00:07:34.000 And the more I got into the field and sat writing out questions for the researcher, for the therapist who would be asking the questions, and I'd be sitting there watching the process.

00:07:48.000 And just over time, I thought, well, you know, maybe there was something more to it.

00:07:53.000 But I'm better off not knowing anything, so I'll just block it off and forget about it.

00:08:00.000 Yeah, we talked last night about John Mack a little bit, the Harvard...

00:08:04.000 A great guy.

00:08:05.000 Yeah.

00:08:05.000 And he did a lot of these sort of hypnotic regression sessions with people where they described very similar scenarios.

00:08:14.000 Well, yeah, a multitude of different situations.

00:08:18.000 The abduction phenomena was very proliferate in the population, it seemed like.

00:08:28.000 Even we did a survey called the Roper Poll.

00:08:32.000 And we repeated it three times so that the margin of error was really reduced to like one, one and a half percent.

00:08:39.000 And abduction researchers came up with the ten questions.

00:08:43.000 And so we distributed that and the conclusion was a fairly A relatively sizable percentage of the population had some kind of experiences according to them,

00:09:00.000 according to the researchers, and according to the poll.

00:09:05.000 I am not qualified to speak to the accuracy of whether the questions were that relevant to the conclusions or not, but that's what they said.

00:09:16.000 And I had, in my own research, found people that I put them through a regression.

00:09:23.000 Not personally, but I found a hypnotherapist that could do that.

00:09:27.000 And I found a number of people just here, there, scattered around.

00:09:32.000 Maybe somebody in my own staff.

00:09:34.000 And they would come up with these stories and these events.

00:09:39.000 One of the criticisms of John Mack and hypnotic regression in general is that the idea that you can put a memory into someone's head.

00:09:49.000 That you could suggest things and you could create false memories.

00:09:53.000 And this was something that I've read in the criticism of his work.

00:09:57.000 That this style of hypnotic regression and bringing up these very specific scenarios to a bunch of different people, you can sort of help create, especially in people that are easily influenced or people that are open to suggestion,

00:10:14.000 you could put these false memories in their head.

00:10:17.000 And so, you know, especially when you're dealing with something as fantastic, As a UFO or alien abduction or visitation or something like that.

00:10:27.000 That's definitely possible.

00:10:29.000 There's also something called screen memory, but dealing with the first power suggestion.

00:10:33.000 That's absolutely true.

00:10:35.000 But my experience was with different hypnotherapists, they went out of their way.

00:10:41.000 In fact, if they did make a suggestion, it was just the opposite.

00:10:45.000 They might say, okay, you're on board this craft.

00:10:48.000 You know, where's the lighting coming from?

00:10:52.000 Is it coming from the corner of the room that you're in?

00:10:55.000 Well, there were no corners.

00:10:57.000 They'd be corrected right away by the person being...

00:11:03.000 So they went just the opposite direction on purpose to make suggestions to maybe coax the person to come that direction and they wouldn't do it.

00:11:15.000 The person wouldn't do it.

00:11:17.000 Now screen memory is different supposedly if somebody has a very close encounter With supposedly somebody that's ET, you leave that the memory turns out to be entirely different and that's put into you consciously and you recall something entirely different than what actually happened.

00:11:40.000 Maybe you saw two deer on the road or something of that sort or maybe there were owls or whatever.

00:11:47.000 So that's what's purported to be.

00:11:51.000 What's crazy to me is if you go back to Betty and Barney Hill, if you go to Travis Walton, if you go to a lot of these abduction experiences, people that did not know each other, and particularly we're talking about before social media, before any of this stuff, they have very similar stories.

00:12:07.000 Similar to a disturbing extent.

00:12:12.000 Yeah, well, Betty and Barney Hill was accidental.

00:12:16.000 I think somebody had, Betty or Barney had a sleep problem, and they went to try to get some therapy for a sleeping disorder.

00:12:25.000 I think there was some kind of connection like that, but it didn't have to do with, oh my gosh, we have this recollection.

00:12:31.000 The story evolved through the therapy.

00:12:35.000 And in order to try to fix this other problem, all of a sudden this story starts just to flow out.

00:12:43.000 And so I don't know whether it was Betty first and then Barney later.

00:12:48.000 And I think Barney resisted going under hypnosis, I believe.

00:12:52.000 And then everything just started pouring out.

00:12:55.000 There's a woman named Angela Hill.

00:12:57.000 She's a top UFC fighter, and she's actually the granddaughter of Betty and Barney.

00:13:01.000 No kidding.

00:13:02.000 It's crazy.

00:13:02.000 And I didn't know about it until after we did a conversation.

00:13:05.000 I was interviewing her, just talking to her about her fighting career.

00:13:08.000 And at the end of the conversation, when we were done wrapping up and about to leave, she's like, oh, I forgot to tell you.

00:13:15.000 And then she tells me that her grandparents were Betty and Barney Hill.

00:13:19.000 I'm like, what?

00:13:19.000 That's amazing.

00:13:20.000 That was her grandfather.

00:13:21.000 Did you inquire or Did you ask her?

00:13:23.000 Yeah, we talked about it.

00:13:25.000 She didn't have much of a memory of him, but her parents recalled the scenes that he described, and obviously it became this huge national story.

00:13:37.000 I remember hearing about it when I was a kid.

00:13:39.000 It was in the 1950s, right?

00:13:41.000 Yes.

00:13:42.000 There was no archetype that you would sort of model You know your memories after I would wonder like if I ever did hypnotic regression today I would I would be very skeptical of my own memories Because I've heard so many stories right of these spaceship encounters I've talked to people like Travis Walton I've talked to people like Bob Lazar I've talked to these people that have had these experiences with these things I would want I would think that my

00:14:12.000 memory is Might be tainted by my expectations.

00:14:16.000 But you can't say that about Betty and Barney Hill.

00:14:18.000 These people, there was no stories like that before then.

00:14:22.000 This is not some pop culture thing that they were latching onto.

00:14:25.000 And even the way they described these creatures, the similarities between their descriptions and Travis Walton's descriptions, you know, 20 plus years later, it's very eerie.

00:14:37.000 Right, right, right.

00:14:39.000 And the same thing with Ken Arnold's sightings.

00:14:43.000 That was virgin territory back then in 1947. Can you explain that to people?

00:14:48.000 Well, so Ken Arnold was a pilot.

00:14:53.000 That's in that movie Phenomenon, right?

00:14:55.000 Isn't it described in that?

00:14:57.000 Maybe so.

00:14:58.000 The Phenomenon?

00:14:58.000 Maybe so.

00:14:59.000 And so he was flying over Mount Shasta or somewhere in Washington there.

00:15:04.000 And saw these objects, nine objects, kind of skipping along in formation.

00:15:11.000 And he, being a professional pilot, was able to estimate their speed, calculate that.

00:15:19.000 They were traveling way too fast for conventional aircraft.

00:15:23.000 And the shape that he described was, I've always thought of them a little bit of a manta ray shape without the tail, kind of a little bit of a curved boomerang kind of shape to the craft.

00:15:38.000 And that got an awful lot of attention because he was a very credible fellow, as were other people that later revealed their own sightings, military backgrounds, people that had major rank or captain rank.

00:15:51.000 So they had stories you would listen to about their experiences because they were professional observers in the military.

00:16:04.000 And actually, while we were out eating dinner last night, Dan Crenshaw sent me a text, and I shared it with everybody at the table, and it's from American Airlines pilots that saw some spectacular sighting over the last couple of days,

00:16:19.000 and they're trying to figure out what the hell these people saw, but something that sped by them at some insane rates of speed, and there's a recording of them discussing it.

00:16:31.000 Whether it's...

00:16:33.000 Abnormal or conventional, that should never have happened in that proximity to that aircraft.

00:16:39.000 So if it were an accident, that's a really bad accident to come that close.

00:16:44.000 And if it were flying in the line of flight and it sped that fast over its head, it was really moving.

00:16:50.000 Yeah.

00:16:50.000 Well, it was a conventional commercial aircraft go 400 plus miles an hour.

00:16:55.000 American Airlines pilot reports seeing UFO. An American Airlines pilot reported seeing a long cylindrical object flying right over the top of the plane as he was flying.

00:17:06.000 Sunday's American Airlines flight AA2292 was operating from Cincinnati to Phoenix using an Airbus A320 aircraft over the northeast portion of New Mexico at 37,000 feet during what was otherwise a routine flight.

00:17:20.000 One of the pilots contacted air traffic control at Albuquerque Center.

00:17:24.000 He said, do you have any targets up here?

00:17:26.000 We just had something go right over the top of us.

00:17:27.000 I hate to say this, but it looked like a long cylindrical object that almost looked like a cruise missile type of thing moving really fast right over the top of us.

00:17:36.000 So what's missing is propulsion signature, right?

00:17:40.000 So that should have been evident that it had some kind of propulsion, exhaust.

00:17:46.000 Some kind of exhaust was going on, right, you would think.

00:17:51.000 That they could detect that if it were in the line of sight, if they were behind it?

00:17:55.000 Well, that's a very short description, though.

00:17:57.000 I mean, maybe it did have some sort of propulsion that they saw.

00:18:00.000 That's all we saw.

00:18:01.000 I mean, maybe there's a report that'll come out where they describe it in detail.

00:18:05.000 That's just them calling it in, right?

00:18:07.000 Yeah, if it's not super unique, then it was one hell of a mistake, right?

00:18:10.000 Yeah, I mean, but it's just, yeah, there's a lot of those.

00:18:15.000 That's the problem.

00:18:16.000 There's a lot of these.

00:18:17.000 And there's video of them, like the one, what is it, the one that's on the East Coast that's moving over the surface of the water at insane rates of speed.

00:18:26.000 And you see it.

00:18:27.000 Also, no heat signature, no obvious method of propulsion.

00:18:31.000 And doesn't exhibit...

00:18:34.000 Because that one was done, I believe it was infrared, the camera.

00:18:37.000 So you should have been able to see some exhaust or some heat signature that was showing how it was being propelled at that insane rate of speed.

00:18:46.000 And you hear these pilots who are used to flying.

00:18:49.000 They're flying fighter jets. 0.98

00:18:50.000 And they're like, holy shit, look at this thing. 0.98

00:18:52.000 And they're kind of freaking out. 0.98

00:18:55.000 Well, the good news is there are so many more people with cameras than with cell phones these days.

00:19:02.000 And so you have a much more aware public than you did, what, 25 years ago.

00:19:10.000 In 1997 was the so-called Phoenix Lights.

00:19:14.000 Yeah.

00:19:14.000 And they weren't just lights because that craft started from northern Arizona, some say maybe Clark County, Nevada area, and proceeded down south toward Phoenix.

00:19:27.000 In the twilight of the evening where thousands of people saw structure.

00:19:31.000 It wasn't just lights.

00:19:33.000 It wasn't just, could it be confused with flares, aircraft dropping flares, and no such things had occurred anyway at that time of that day.

00:19:46.000 And so people saw structure, and the structure was estimated, what, a quarter mile maybe from tip to tip, boomerang kind of shape, kind of craft.

00:19:56.000 And yet, that should have been a really big deal, news-wise.

00:20:03.000 Right over a major city, so many observers, but it wasn't.

00:20:10.000 But it was, though, right?

00:20:12.000 Because we all know about it.

00:20:13.000 Well, but then, of course, the governor at the time was Fyfe Syrington.

00:20:18.000 And we know now that he didn't know what to do because he was an actual witness that he admitted to 10 years later of actually being a witness.

00:20:27.000 Right.

00:20:27.000 But he didn't know how to address that.

00:20:30.000 Well, that was the famous press conference.

00:20:32.000 That was the famous press conference.

00:20:33.000 He had a guy dress up like an alien and made a mockery of it.

00:20:36.000 Exactly.

00:20:37.000 Yeah.

00:20:37.000 If he had done just the opposite, what might have happened on that with his testimony as being a witness, a governor of a state?

00:20:47.000 Other people then might have come forth more and more volume of folks saying, yeah, me too.

00:20:52.000 I saw it.

00:20:53.000 With your understanding of the way the government sort of processes this kind of information, that it's not...

00:21:03.000 It's not available to everybody.

00:21:05.000 And the information in terms of what these things are, what they aren't, whether or not they're some sort of top secret aircraft that the government is working on, or whatever it is.

00:21:16.000 Unless they're making press conferences about these things, they don't necessarily want to broadcast what it is.

00:21:23.000 And they certainly don't want to broadcast it if it's not available.

00:21:27.000 Do you think that they contacted the governor and informed him that he needed to make a mockery of this?

00:21:33.000 Or do you think it was his own personal decision?

00:21:36.000 My feeling is it was his personal decision.

00:21:40.000 And my feeling is that the government is not that organized anymore.

00:21:46.000 Maybe it was back some quite a while back.

00:21:50.000 But I don't think that...

00:21:52.000 I think...

00:21:54.000 That denial is able to be carried forth without government encouragement.

00:22:03.000 So he probably did it just to calm everybody down.

00:22:05.000 Yeah.

00:22:06.000 He probably felt tremendous pressure, right?

00:22:08.000 Because I remember this was an enormous story.

00:22:10.000 I mean, it was going all across the United States.

00:22:13.000 People were talking about it.

00:22:14.000 And then there was all sorts of...

00:22:16.000 Sort of semi-reasonable explanations about dropping flares.

00:22:20.000 The thing about the dropping flares, though, were that they hovered in the sky for a long time.

00:22:25.000 Like, it didn't make any sense.

00:22:26.000 Are they defying gravity?

00:22:29.000 Because there's video footage of it from multiple sources, home footage where people are filming these things, where there's these red lights that are just hovering in the sky.

00:22:38.000 But the red lights coincided with these triangular-shaped vehicles or boomerang-shaped vehicles that other people were seeing.

00:22:46.000 Well, there were people living on Camelback Mountain, and this is how low this craft was to the surface.

00:22:54.000 They got an edge-on view, coming practically at them, just slightly over the mountain.

00:23:00.000 But there's no video of that, right?

00:23:02.000 Not that I, I don't know.

00:23:03.000 There could be, I don't, I've never seen them.

00:23:06.000 This was 97. 97. Yeah.

00:23:08.000 Yeah, see that's, you know, phones back then, not everybody had a phone and they didn't have good cameras.

00:23:16.000 Right.

00:23:16.000 The thing about even today, you know, with cameras and Most cell phone cameras aren't capable of seeing things at a zoom.

00:23:25.000 With the exception of the Samsung Galaxy series, the new ones, they actually have a setting where you can take photographs of the moon because they have some pretty spectacular zoom capabilities.

00:23:36.000 It's pretty interesting stuff.

00:23:38.000 If you got one of those and you saw something in the sky, maybe you could zoom in on it and get a good shot of it.

00:23:44.000 But you're talking about things traveling at insane rates of speed.

00:23:47.000 It's very far away.

00:23:48.000 You're really not going to get much anyway.

00:23:50.000 No.

00:23:51.000 It's got to be much closer to really have definition of what it is you're looking at.

00:23:55.000 Now there was a story quite recently of a pilot in a fighter jet that took a photograph of some similar shaped object, some triangular shaped object and apparently it was a very clear image.

00:24:10.000 It was a very clear image and there was some speculation about people releasing this and that they were going to release it and there was hesitation about releasing it.

00:24:18.000 Do you know about this?

00:24:20.000 Well, is that the one off the East Coast?

00:24:22.000 Real recently?

00:24:24.000 No.

00:24:24.000 I'm not familiar with that.

00:24:26.000 Do you know what I'm talking about, Jamie?

00:24:27.000 I think we discussed it with...

00:24:29.000 The picture that you can see, they zoomed in on it? 1.00

00:24:32.000 The picture apparently is bullshit. 0.98

00:24:34.000 That picture apparently is not real. 0.99

00:24:36.000 But there was one taken by a pilot in the plane a couple, two, three years ago sometime.

00:24:43.000 Oh, a different one?

00:24:44.000 See, this is the Pentagon response to release a photo taken from Navy pilots showing unidentified objects.

00:24:50.000 I heard that this was nonsense.

00:24:52.000 I heard from people that are in the know that this is not the image that they're talking about.

00:24:57.000 The one they have...

00:24:59.000 This is according to people that are in the military.

00:25:00.000 The one they have is much clearer than this.

00:25:03.000 There's more than one image, right?

00:25:04.000 I don't know.

00:25:06.000 We may be talking about different ones.

00:25:08.000 Maybe.

00:25:08.000 I don't know.

00:25:09.000 Okay, sorry, breaking.

00:25:11.000 Debrief Media has learned the leak of an unclassified photo said to have been widely distributed in the intelligence community, which purportedly shows what the DOD has characterized as unidentified aerial phenomenon.

00:25:22.000 I don't know if that's...

00:25:24.000 Look, obviously I'm just talking out of my ass, but what I had heard was that that was not the image in question, that there was a much, much clearer image in question that was pretty stunning, that they were debating on whether or not to release. 0.75

00:25:36.000 Because once the New York Times in 2017 published that front page article that showed some of those images that had been captured from the video cameras and the fighter jets experiences and talked about Commander David Fravor's experience with the Tic Tac UFO off the coast of San Diego... 0.99

00:25:53.000 That sort of released a lot of pressure on the concept of if you discuss these things, you're a foolish person.

00:26:05.000 For a long time, and I'm sure you must have experienced this because you've been in the game for a long time. 0.94

00:26:11.000 Discussing UFOs in 1970 or in 1980, people would look at you like you're probably crazy or something, right?

00:26:20.000 I was too busy being in business in those years.

00:26:23.000 You didn't care?

00:26:25.000 I had a little plan I was following that I had put together when I was a kid, and I was on a mission to be in business, to acquire resources so that I could someday have fun chasing this stuff.

00:26:40.000 Yeah, that's one of the more interesting things about you.

00:26:43.000 Like, you became like a hotel tycoon and a real estate tycoon, gathered up all this money so that you could study UFOs.

00:26:50.000 And do fun things maybe in space.

00:26:53.000 Yeah, well, you've also been involved in creating shelters and structures that people can actually live in in space.

00:27:00.000 Right.

00:27:00.000 There's the genesis and the genesis...

00:27:03.000 Well, we call it a B330. What we have on our plant right now is engineering units, which are flight units, as far as hull and bulkheads are concerned, and longerons.

00:27:18.000 And so we had to shut down because of the COVID, but we have very advanced structures.

00:27:28.000 Yeah, and these have been implemented too.

00:27:31.000 Some of them have actually been, you've actually put these things...

00:27:34.000 We have a TRL-9 because we have a structure, scale structure, that's on the ISS now.

00:27:43.000 Yeah, so your dream in a lot of ways of getting involved in aerospace and in space travel, like you're, this is real, like you're a guy who actually has contracts with You know, big government.

00:27:58.000 Not that I've ever made money back, you know.

00:28:00.000 It's been a bottomless pit.

00:28:02.000 Has it been?

00:28:03.000 Yeah, sure.

00:28:03.000 So you've just done it as a passion.

00:28:06.000 Maybe a hope and a prayer, you know, kind of thing.

00:28:10.000 Hail Marys.

00:28:10.000 And part of it is because of your obsession with extraterrestrials.

00:28:18.000 I don't know.

00:28:20.000 There probably is a connection there because you're made aware that there's a whole lot more out there than what we know and what people think.

00:28:33.000 There probably is a connection.

00:28:35.000 It always was.

00:28:36.000 Do you have any images of that?

00:28:38.000 Let's pull it up so people can see what we're talking about, the stuff that you've created.

00:28:42.000 Yeah, so this one, can you explain this?

00:28:44.000 That's an older version that we did quite a long time ago.

00:28:49.000 We have a full scale.

00:28:50.000 That's just a one-third scale.

00:28:53.000 Basic architectural features and accommodations for living.

00:29:01.000 Space habitat.

00:29:03.000 Yeah, I think those are full-scale architectural renderings.

00:29:10.000 Now down at the bottom, okay, so that's full scale.

00:29:17.000 That one right there?

00:29:17.000 Yeah.

00:29:18.000 That's an old version, but that's a full scale.

00:29:21.000 That's 330 cubic meters, and it's a more crude mock-up than what we have now.

00:29:29.000 And the standard volume on a module for the ISS is about 120, or the largest is around 120 cubic meters.

00:29:36.000 So 330 is about, you know, almost three times that.

00:29:40.000 So when you design one of these things or when you go into business to create one of these things, what's the steps that you're taking?

00:29:48.000 Do you contact engineers?

00:29:52.000 How do you decide that you want to go into business to make these things and how do you go about implementing it?

00:29:59.000 So, you know, it's been a 20-year process.

00:30:03.000 And first you try to engineer.

00:30:11.000 In fact, nothing about the origination was original with me because I became incredulous about what NASA had done in the early 90s with something called the Transhab.

00:30:29.000 And it was a vehicle to take people to Mars.

00:30:33.000 And Congress cut the funding for that.

00:30:38.000 And, oh my God, how could they do such a thing?

00:30:41.000 Because it was very apparent, apparent that that craft was really cool for a lot of reasons.

00:30:50.000 And so I started the company, started putting money in it, and started going after that.

00:30:56.000 And then after about three years acquired a license, exclusive license, to use their patent just for the enclosure.

00:31:04.000 No book of instructions came with it.

00:31:06.000 There wasn't a manual saying, here's how you do this.

00:31:09.000 And so we started from scratch.

00:31:12.000 And we had no assistance from NASA whatsoever.

00:31:15.000 In arranging the architectures and engineering.

00:31:18.000 And then through a process of trial and error and testing and testing and testing.

00:31:23.000 Destructive testing, long duration leak tests.

00:31:28.000 Destructive because you had to try to quantify the strength of Of the materials.

00:31:37.000 And we were using factors much more demanding than the factors for metallics.

00:31:43.000 Factors of four, instead of metallics maybe one and a quarter or something.

00:31:50.000 And we finally engineered envelopes that were...

00:31:56.000 Very durable.

00:31:57.000 Ballistically, we did a lot of what's called hypervelocity impacts tests where you shoot a particle at about seven kilometers a second, six to seven, depending on the type of gas gun you're using, and seeing how well the structure can defend against something going that fast.

00:32:18.000 Actually, the defense on something going fast is easier than a particle going slower, like a bullet, for example.

00:32:26.000 Kind of crazy, but for some reason that...

00:32:29.000 And when you mean defense, you mean something like micrometeors or space junk?

00:32:34.000 Yeah, actually, smaller than that.

00:32:36.000 You know, maybe the size of a centimeter.

00:32:38.000 Which is actually a big particle, historically, to hit something, you know, like the station or whatever.

00:32:46.000 I think maybe some of the solar rays have been hit by something that large.

00:32:51.000 So you're defending against also radiation.

00:32:55.000 Aluminum structures are not what you want to be inside, especially for deep space missions outside of LEO, low Earth orbit.

00:33:05.000 And there's something called secondary radiation that propagates.

00:33:09.000 So in the background, galactic radiation has heavy protons and it's more lethal.

00:33:17.000 So, what did you do to shield your habitats from radiation?

00:33:22.000 Well, the hull has no aluminum structure.

00:33:28.000 And the hull is a matrix of many layers of different kinds of materials.

00:33:36.000 And those materials are like Kevlar or Vectran.

00:33:44.000 We use Vectran for a couple of reasons, but it's like Kevlar.

00:33:50.000 And so through a series of other materials in addition to that type of material, you start to evolve a shield.

00:34:02.000 And the shield on a B330 overall is about 15 to 18 inches thick.

00:34:11.000 And there are spaces in between Layers.

00:34:18.000 So it's not as though you compress it and it's going to be a foot and a half thick.

00:34:23.000 But it's those spaces that make a difference and how debris breaks up and finally just becomes dust.

00:34:33.000 Or if it's too fast and too large, it's not dust.

00:34:37.000 It's going to succeed on going through.

00:34:38.000 And when it does, is there a patch method?

00:34:41.000 Yeah.

00:34:42.000 First of all, you have to maybe locate.

00:34:45.000 There could be things on the hull that are in the way, because you use the hull as an attaching surface, and so that volume is very useful.

00:34:54.000 And so assuming you've located it now, and it depends on the size of the particle.

00:35:00.000 If it actually was significantly large, it'd blow off whatever was attached to the hole, maybe just put another hole right through whatever was attached.

00:35:08.000 So it'd be easier to find the hole.

00:35:10.000 That's the good news.

00:35:12.000 Bad news, the gas is, you know, your gas is escaping a lot faster.

00:35:16.000 So you do have some time though in a large volume for that gas to totally escape.

00:35:21.000 So then you have to make a judgment as to do you have time to create the patch?

00:35:26.000 And it's actually a fairly simple process because anything you put there wants to stick to the wall, right?

00:35:33.000 But depending on a basketball size something, there's not an explosion.

00:35:39.000 It doesn't go boom like a balloon.

00:35:42.000 It just loses gas.

00:35:44.000 You know, your air.

00:35:45.000 And so you'd probably have time to go to the airlock unless you were on the potty or something.

00:35:51.000 So you'd have to escape.

00:35:52.000 You'd have time to escape.

00:35:53.000 But that would be the move.

00:35:54.000 You really wouldn't be able to pick up a big hole.

00:35:55.000 Yeah, you'd want to be able to go someplace else.

00:35:57.000 You know, hopefully you're attached to something that can accommodate whoever's on board.

00:36:01.000 Why did this become your area of specialty when it comes to aerospace?

00:36:07.000 Like, why did you invest in this?

00:36:09.000 Why did you invest in habitats?

00:36:11.000 Well, at first I played around with some other companies.

00:36:14.000 I invested in two or three other companies in the late 90s.

00:36:19.000 They were rocket plane type companies.

00:36:23.000 I came very close to investing in what Burt Rutan was creating before Virgin came along.

00:36:34.000 And so I was looking for some place to go, to put capital, money, and energy and passion into something.

00:36:43.000 And so I did these investments in these different companies, and then I stumbled on the TransHab.

00:36:51.000 So your initial idea was maybe some sort of commercial space travel type investment, something like Virgin Galactic or something like?

00:37:00.000 Yeah, I really didn't know.

00:37:02.000 I think the most enticing thing was what Bert was working on.

00:37:06.000 And the financial model for that was very attractive.

00:37:13.000 And I think he was, of course, he's a...

00:37:18.000 Aircraft design genius.

00:37:20.000 He has so many awards, you hardly can count them.

00:37:24.000 As you walk down the hallway to his office, it's like floor-to-ceiling plaques, you know.

00:37:30.000 You got a couple extra just for souvenirs, you know, something, you know.

00:37:35.000 And so he's a total genius.

00:37:38.000 And he, by the way, had his own UFO sighting.

00:37:44.000 I don't know.

00:37:45.000 You'll have to get that story from him, but it's worth listening to.

00:37:50.000 So many people have.

00:37:52.000 So anyway, that's how I started in that, and I fell in love with the concept of expandable systems, launching something with a finite Fairing diameter and length and being able to triple the size of that volume once it's ejected and it's launched,

00:38:12.000 you know, and the fairing opens up and now you start to expand and inflate and, wow, all that you can do with that volume is really cool.

00:38:21.000 And so this allowed you to, I mean, these contracts, if you're doing it with the ISS, are they with NASA? Is that who you work with?

00:38:32.000 Yeah, NASA basically has been the only game in town for us and for most folks.

00:38:37.000 Most folks in the rocket business, other than for the Air Force who buys launches for satellites, NASA is the game still.

00:38:45.000 And when NASA's financially hurting, everybody hurts.

00:38:50.000 Depending upon who is providing the leadership, both in Congress and in NASA and in the White House, you can do fantastic things.

00:39:03.000 So it's all a combination of whether or not people can all work together.

00:39:07.000 If they're fighting in Congress and going on, you're not going to go places like you could.

00:39:14.000 So with you being involved in this and creating these habitats and your long-standing obsession with UFOs and potential alien life, getting involved with NASA must have been pretty exciting.

00:39:27.000 You're like, well, maybe I'm going to learn something now.

00:39:30.000 Oh, definitely.

00:39:30.000 You're definitely going to learn.

00:39:32.000 Absolutely.

00:39:34.000 They have a lot of good people and very expert people.

00:39:39.000 So you're going to learn a lot.

00:39:41.000 It's a great place to sponge all that you can.

00:39:46.000 I mean learn things about UFOs and alien life.

00:39:50.000 Oh, that!

00:39:52.000 Oh, that.

00:39:53.000 Oh, no, I was back.

00:39:54.000 I was back about, you know, space, conventional space travel.

00:39:58.000 Well, that too.

00:40:00.000 What better way to learn?

00:40:01.000 Basically, you're not going to learn anything about UFOs and ET from the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of the scientific community.

00:40:11.000 And that includes NASA and everybody else.

00:40:15.000 Are they not interested?

00:40:16.000 No.

00:40:18.000 I think it's a combination of things.

00:40:20.000 I think the reason for that is not because they're not interested.

00:40:24.000 And a lot of people are.

00:40:26.000 Because I'm asked things all the time.

00:40:28.000 A lot of people are.

00:40:29.000 I think there's always the concern of embarrassment.

00:40:33.000 I think they're not in a position to be an investigator.

00:40:37.000 They might have a passion and want to do that, but it takes time.

00:40:40.000 It takes time and effort to go do those things.

00:40:44.000 And usually you want to stick to what your career is, right?

00:40:47.000 So...

00:40:49.000 And maybe they've had somebody in their family that has had a tremendous story, and so they'll carry that with them.

00:40:59.000 And they might buy the books they keep at home.

00:41:03.000 They might brown bag it, you know.

00:41:06.000 We're good to go.

00:41:22.000 Not as much as it used to be.

00:41:24.000 Now, it was much worse 20, 30 years ago.

00:41:27.000 What was it like then?

00:41:28.000 Well, as I could speak to, you know, just the general science population was much more reticent to talk about UFOs 30 years ago, I think, than today.

00:41:43.000 There's been so much more exposure.

00:41:46.000 Mm-hmm.

00:42:09.000 As you continue to do research and work in that whole community is kind of a strange frustration About acquiring a little bit of a taste of understanding about the possibilities of locomotion,

00:42:29.000 of movement, and where we are.

00:42:32.000 We're still working with fire engines.

00:42:35.000 And thank God for people like Elon and Jeff Bezos.

00:42:41.000 I really respect those guys, including Elon's secret weapon, Gwen, you know, his president.

00:42:52.000 The country is so lucky to have them.

00:42:54.000 But the dynamicism of UFOs and ETs is so overwhelming as to what that world is like.

00:43:05.000 And if it's all true, or even some of it true, it's more than just a holy cow.

00:43:10.000 It's, oh my God.

00:43:12.000 So it's like night and day comparison.

00:43:15.000 And here we are still in 2021 and still waiting to get back to the moon.

00:43:21.000 Well, I think when we were talking earlier about the New York Times article, I think that was a real pivotal moment in the culture's acceptance of the concept of these things.

00:43:33.000 Because when you see something printed on the front page of the New York Times, when you see people like Commander Fravor, very well respected, all...

00:43:47.000 Full respect.

00:43:48.000 No one thinks that guy's a kook.

00:43:50.000 You read about his experiences and you go, okay, there's something to this.

00:43:54.000 And Leslie Keen, the journalist that did that article, did a terrific job.

00:43:58.000 Fantastic job.

00:43:59.000 Just fantastic.

00:44:00.000 And it's a dangerous subject for someone.

00:44:02.000 Yeah, it is.

00:44:03.000 You're open to ridicule.

00:44:05.000 But the preponderance of evidence had gotten to the point where there was enough out there where you could say, listen, this is not something to be mocked anymore.

00:44:13.000 There's something to this.

00:44:14.000 Right.

00:44:14.000 That's right.

00:44:15.000 When you have Commander Faber, and we hired Doug, one of the pilots there.

00:44:21.000 We learned about that in 2008. The event happened in 2004. So you have really credible people seeing something that's totally anomalous and has no business doing what it's doing.

00:44:35.000 Right.

00:44:35.000 So you've got to take it really seriously.

00:44:38.000 Not only that, things that have been tracked by instrumentation, things that have gone from 80,000 feet above sea level to one foot in less than a second, and then traveled to the agreed-upon destination where the plane was going to go later.

00:44:54.000 They knew where they were traveling to.

00:44:58.000 It was able to travel at an insane rate of speed that's not even...

00:45:03.000 It doesn't make any sense with any technology that we've ever even theorized.

00:45:08.000 No.

00:45:09.000 No.

00:45:12.000 So these are things that were tracked by instrumentation.

00:45:15.000 So it's not, this is the best instrumentation.

00:45:18.000 This is instrumentation that's used by the United States military to protect the borders. 1.00

00:45:22.000 It's all the real shit. 0.99

00:45:23.000 So when you read things like that in the New York Times, everybody has to kind of go, huh? 1.00

00:45:28.000 Yeah.

00:45:28.000 Okay.

00:45:29.000 And you couple that with hundreds of thousands or millions of other events and stories that have happened over the last 50, 60, 70 years.

00:45:39.000 You think, oh my god, we're so far behind.

00:45:45.000 You know, of what else is going on.

00:45:47.000 Right.

00:45:48.000 Because we've been so afraid of ridicule for so long.

00:45:50.000 Yeah.

00:45:50.000 How long is it going to take us to get to that point?

00:45:52.000 Right.

00:45:53.000 You know, and do we even understand the beginnings of the physics of it?

00:45:58.000 Because what if their consciousness operated?

00:46:00.000 You know, that's it.

00:46:01.000 You don't have the right mental signature.

00:46:04.000 It isn't going anywhere.

00:46:05.000 Nothing is coming on.

00:46:06.000 No, there's no lights.

00:46:08.000 The dash didn't light up.

00:46:09.000 Right.

00:46:10.000 Sort of like when you walk up to your car, like I have a Ford F-150.

00:46:15.000 When I get near it, it knows I'm there because my key fob.

00:46:20.000 Sure.

00:46:20.000 And when I touch the handle.

00:46:22.000 Or like a Tesla is a better example.

00:46:23.000 If somebody else has your key fob, it's going to light up.

00:46:26.000 But instead of it being like a Tesla key fob, when you get to it, the handle opens up so you can open the door.

00:46:33.000 Right.

00:46:33.000 Like as you get close to it, it's pretty cool.

00:46:35.000 Yeah, sure.

00:46:35.000 But instead of that, it's actually your consciousness.

00:46:38.000 Yeah.

00:46:39.000 And what if you're not even close to it?

00:46:41.000 Yeah.

00:46:41.000 What if you're on the other side of the planet and you want it to start?

00:46:43.000 Like you can with a car with an application.

00:46:47.000 Like if you have a Tesla, you could roll your windows up with the app.

00:46:50.000 You could lock it with the app, right?

00:46:52.000 It operates through Wi-Fi.

00:46:54.000 Who's to say they can't do something like that with consciousness?

00:46:58.000 Yeah, we have no idea.

00:46:59.000 I mean, that's not even outside of what makes sense.

00:47:04.000 If you followed the technology and the technological improvements over the last 15, 20 years and you explored the possibility of what could be done in the next 100 or 1,000 or 100,000 years,

00:47:21.000 I'd go, yeah, that's not even crazy.

00:47:23.000 Yeah.

00:47:24.000 Well, physics is incomplete, in my humble opinion, because it doesn't provide answers for all the paranormal baskets.

00:47:34.000 Not just what we're talking about with AT UFOs, but all the other kinds of stuff that has been done in laboratories for many, many years on camera.

00:47:46.000 By people that have performed really strange things.

00:47:51.000 You mean like quantum mechanics?

00:47:53.000 No, no, like micro-macro-PK. Just take something simple.

00:47:58.000 What is that?

00:47:59.000 Micro-macro-PK? Just manipulating material objects, whether they're electrons or a bottle cap.

00:48:11.000 Let's say you've got a screen computer, and it's hooked up to a random event generator, which is flipping a coin many, many hundreds of thousands of times a second, and it's establishing a firm,

00:48:27.000 even line, this 50-50 across your screen.

00:48:31.000 And then there's another line.

00:48:32.000 Coming along.

00:48:33.000 And your challenge is to have the two lines deviate.

00:48:40.000 So you're, and I don't know, it's been so many years since I was in the pair lab with Bob John and Brenda Dunn.

00:48:48.000 I forget the exact details on this, but the point was, there was a line that was created, a second line that you were to think about and try to deviate that line.

00:48:57.000 And you should not be able to do that at all.

00:49:00.000 So they had maybe a one flat line on the screen, and then you had this random event generator that should be 50-50 right alongside that same line.

00:49:08.000 But it's not.

00:49:09.000 You're causing it to go up or you're causing it to go down.

00:49:12.000 And they had a lot of people successful on this.

00:49:15.000 Many, many, many.

00:49:16.000 And they did just a huge number of trials that were successful.

00:49:20.000 So that's in the smallest context.

00:49:23.000 You had that Russian woman, Kalignia, something like that was her name, that worked with objects in a bell jar. 1.00

00:49:31.000 And she would be able to manipulate them, cause them to spin, cause them to lift. 0.94

00:49:37.000 Objects.

00:49:38.000 What kind of objects?

00:49:39.000 Small objects.

00:49:40.000 You know, something small.

00:49:42.000 Microscopic?

00:49:43.000 No, no, no.

00:49:43.000 Like a bottle cap.

00:49:45.000 You know, something that size.

00:49:47.000 So some sort of telekinesis?

00:49:50.000 Macro-PK. So it's some kind of a consciousness connection that is causing the effect, that effect on that object.

00:50:00.000 This is something that's been filmed?

00:50:02.000 Oh, yeah.

00:50:03.000 So this woman is doing what? 1.00

00:50:05.000 And she died at a relatively young age.

00:50:08.000 Her heart, they said, would go up to like 180 beats or 90 beats a minute.

00:50:14.000 While she was doing this?

00:50:15.000 Yeah.

00:50:16.000 So this is this lady? 0.99

00:50:18.000 Oh, your guy is good.

00:50:19.000 He's the best.

00:50:20.000 He is the best.

00:50:22.000 So what is she doing here?

00:50:23.000 Well, she's... 0.99

00:50:24.000 Oh, this is like really old stuff, huh?

00:50:27.000 Oh, yeah.

00:50:29.000 What are those matches?

00:50:31.000 Yeah.

00:50:32.000 But she's also moving that piece of metal. 0.98

00:50:34.000 Right.

00:50:36.000 And there's other ones where she would do this and these things would be in a bell jar, I believe.

00:50:40.000 So she's not touching it.

00:50:42.000 She's making it move.

00:50:44.000 Yeah.

00:50:45.000 And I think they literally wore her out.

00:50:47.000 What year is this?

00:50:50.000 Yeah, but here's my problem.

00:50:52.000 This is something that's on the table.

00:50:54.000 I can't see below the table.

00:50:55.000 I can't see if there's a magnet.

00:50:57.000 I can't see what's underneath this deck of cards.

00:51:00.000 There's a piece of metal. 0.88

00:51:01.000 You can move things around with fuckery. 0.62

00:51:04.000 I don't know if this is real. 0.70

00:51:06.000 And those matches were moving because that piece of metal was moving the matches.

00:51:09.000 So the piece of metal was plowing the matches and she's got it moving around. 0.98

00:51:14.000 I'm not buying into this.

00:51:15.000 But on its face.

00:51:16.000 Yeah.

00:51:17.000 It's really intriguing.

00:51:18.000 It's intriguing, but it's a party trick.

00:51:20.000 I don't even like the way it's set up.

00:51:23.000 The way it's set up on a table, and she's doing this with her hand, and her lap is right there, and anything could be happening there.

00:51:29.000 It's cool if it was real.

00:51:32.000 And that looks really old.

00:51:34.000 What year is that?

00:51:35.000 I don't know, probably 50s.

00:51:37.000 I don't know.

00:51:38.000 So the point really is, if you were to make it a job to accumulate this kind of information from as many sources as possible, you'd really have a large volume of stuff and then you'd have a lot of material to look at and analyze,

00:51:57.000 not just one case.

00:51:58.000 I think it's easy to look at one case and have doubts because it is just one.

00:52:03.000 It is one situation.

00:52:05.000 Do you think that things like psychic powers or an understanding of other people's thoughts and ideas, these are maybe possibly emerging aspects of human beings?

00:52:18.000 Like as a human evolves, as we go from being a tree-dwelling primate To being what we are today, where people are intuitive and we can sort of read social cues and we understand each other and we can talk and communicate using sounds and noises that as the human animal evolves,

00:52:39.000 they'll eventually develop some sort of a psychic power.

00:52:43.000 So that, in a way that's connected to supposing that those psychic powers already exist to some degree.

00:52:52.000 Maybe in some people more than others.

00:52:53.000 Right.

00:52:54.000 So that means there are white crows, like we talked about last night.

00:52:58.000 Yeah.

00:52:59.000 Okay.

00:52:59.000 Can you explain that concept to people?

00:53:01.000 Well, there shouldn't be any white crows. 0.97

00:53:02.000 White crows aren't white. 0.58

00:53:04.000 So there shouldn't be any anomalies like that.

00:53:07.000 So if you come up against a white crow, you've really found an anomaly.

00:53:11.000 So now the question is, why?

00:53:13.000 How did this happen?

00:53:15.000 Well, it's an albino, right?

00:53:16.000 It's just a genetic aberration.

00:53:17.000 So it's a metaphor.

00:53:19.000 Right.

00:53:19.000 So it's a metaphor saying you've really come across something that shouldn't be.

00:53:23.000 It shouldn't be.

00:53:24.000 Right.

00:53:24.000 There's no way this should happen.

00:53:26.000 Right.

00:53:26.000 Right?

00:53:27.000 And oh my gosh, here's another one.

00:53:29.000 And it's a cousin.

00:53:30.000 It's different.

00:53:31.000 It's in a different area of the whole sigh basket.

00:53:34.000 What's going on here?

00:53:35.000 Well, we already know that there are extreme variations in intelligence.

00:53:40.000 We know that there's people that are just not that bright, and then there's people like Elon Musk.

00:53:44.000 And these people like this have existed forever.

00:53:48.000 Well, he's not from here.

00:53:49.000 We know that.

00:53:50.000 He's not from here anyway.

00:53:51.000 Yeah, most likely.

00:53:52.000 If there's an alien amongst us, that's him. 0.59

00:53:54.000 But I mean, if you go back to Nikola Tesla, it's sort of the same sort of situation, right?

00:53:58.000 He was clearly of not just superior intelligence, but superior vision.

00:54:04.000 He had this ability to look at things that didn't exist and figure out a way to create them.

00:54:09.000 Right.

00:54:10.000 And that's a very unique thing.

00:54:12.000 And what is causing that?

00:54:14.000 What firing of neurons, what personal experiences combined with education, combined with innate creativity, makes a person create something?

00:54:26.000 But that's not as paranormal.

00:54:29.000 No, it's not, but it's a different aspect of being a human being.

00:54:32.000 Now, we all know that some people are more intuitive than others.

00:54:35.000 Some people are more sensitive than others.

00:54:37.000 Some people are better at understanding.

00:54:40.000 Some people are really good at picking out liars.

00:54:42.000 Some people are really good at picking out talent.

00:54:44.000 They understand people better, right?

00:54:47.000 As the human animal evolves, We could only surmise that those types of skills and those types of qualities that a human being can possess could possibly get better.

00:55:02.000 If you get two very intuitive people, they have a child and the child is even more intuitive than them.

00:55:06.000 And that some aspects, unprovable, unmeasurable aspects of psychic power could be something that's emerging out of the human animal.

00:55:15.000 I would never say never.

00:55:17.000 I think a lot is possible.

00:55:19.000 I think what may more likely would happen, because we're shifting now to taking normal human physiology, which is a separate situation from being able to perform things that Are more unique than just being creative.

00:55:45.000 So I think that you might have small circuitry and small I think?

00:56:01.000 I think?

00:56:15.000 It's a cause and effect using consciousness.

00:56:18.000 So whether it's clairvoyance or telepathy or psychometry, micro, macro, PK, remote viewing, the whole basket, those are all real and they're all world-class performers in every one of those things.

00:56:31.000 Remote viewing is a great example of this because we know for 20 years the CIA and the Army had programs in this and so did the Russians.

00:56:39.000 Right.

00:56:40.000 And we talked about remote viewing last night, too.

00:56:44.000 I'd done an experiment on a show that I had and it wasn't effective at all.

00:56:48.000 But that could have been that the person that was doing the remote viewing was a fraud.

00:56:53.000 That maybe there are people that do have that ability.

00:56:56.000 Now, has it ever been clearly demonstrated that someone can do that?

00:57:01.000 Have you seen it personally?

00:57:02.000 Well, I've hired somebody to do it twice for me, but I've also...

00:57:06.000 And what do they do?

00:57:07.000 ...have friends that ran the programs.

00:57:09.000 What did they do?

00:57:10.000 The people that you hired?

00:57:11.000 I tasked them to describe a longitude-latitude location and describe what was the surface, what was underground, those kinds of things.

00:57:24.000 And they were accurate?

00:57:25.000 Yeah.

00:57:26.000 How accurate?

00:57:27.000 Very accurate and give me information that, to this day, I don't know if it's true or not because it was underground information that I don't even know.

00:57:38.000 That came as a, here's a bonus.

00:57:41.000 I'll tell you what's underneath.

00:57:43.000 So the government had these programs, these secret programs that they were studying remote viewing. 0.90

00:57:48.000 But their official conclusion was that it was horseshit, right? 0.91

00:57:52.000 Oh, no. 0.99

00:57:53.000 Wasn't it?

00:57:53.000 Oh, gosh, gosh, no.

00:57:55.000 Public?

00:57:56.000 No, that was never concluded in that way.

00:57:59.000 What did they say publicly about remote viewing?

00:58:02.000 Did they ever say it's 100% effective and real?

00:58:04.000 I think...

00:58:07.000 There would probably be at a point in time it was classified for a long time.

00:58:12.000 And then it became more public eventually as a program aged and so forth, as things usually do.

00:58:19.000 To be 100%, you could acquire by having more than one viewer.

00:58:29.000 Have the same target.

00:58:30.000 You increases the likelihood of the accuracy of the information.

00:58:34.000 100% is a lot to ask for.

00:58:36.000 Because you're getting a drawing at the same time you're getting conversation.

00:58:40.000 And sometimes the drawings revealed more than the conversations did.

00:58:45.000 So the remote viewer would also be in a position as an experiencer.

00:58:52.000 So if his or her target was at a certain location and the person was eating an orange, for example, A remote viewer could almost taste it,

00:59:07.000 could almost hear the gravel that the person was walking on, feel it under their shoes that they're walking.

00:59:13.000 Now, what was the methodology?

00:59:14.000 How would they go about doing this?

00:59:16.000 So, first of all, the aspect of this is though you're over the person's head that you're...

00:59:23.000 So we have to go back and say there are different kinds of remote viewing, first of all.

00:59:27.000 So I'm just taking one type, where maybe your target is a person, and the person is at a location, and maybe the location is a wharf, a boat dock.

00:59:38.000 There are a lot of boats.

00:59:39.000 And maybe the gravel pathway is getting there.

00:59:41.000 Maybe they're having a fruit in their hands, an orange, apple, whatever.

00:59:45.000 And so the remote viewer is back above the head, kind of like an out-of-body experience is the way that those are reported.

00:59:51.000 And you're watching yourself going down, we can talk about that later, going down a hallway.

00:59:56.000 But you're above yourself.

00:59:58.000 Same way with remote viewing sometimes.

01:00:01.000 They would be in that kind of a position.

01:00:03.000 And so Did you describe everything in your drawing?

01:00:08.000 Maybe not.

01:00:09.000 Well, then you didn't get 100%, did you?

01:00:11.000 But you were spot on as to where they were.

01:00:14.000 You could go find that location.

01:00:16.000 And that's actually where they were at that point in time.

01:00:18.000 That was true.

01:00:19.000 That's exactly where they were.

01:00:21.000 So they were able to figure out where people were and they were able to get a sort of an understanding of what they were doing and how they were doing it and what their surroundings look like.

01:00:31.000 That's the tip of the iceberg.

01:00:32.000 The tip of the iceberg.

01:00:33.000 But what was the methodology?

01:00:34.000 How would a person remote view?

01:00:36.000 Would they be alone in a room?

01:00:38.000 Did they have to achieve a certain state of meditation?

01:00:41.000 Like what did they do to do this?

01:00:43.000 So they would be in a room with a control per controller.

01:00:50.000 I forget the terminology now that they used.

01:00:52.000 So the remote viewer would be there at a desk and pad and paper and there would be the person sitting across as a controller.

01:01:01.000 And then at the point in time, and it depends on how these remote viewing sessions were constructed, I think.

01:01:08.000 The real people that you should talk to are the guys that ran the programs.

01:01:12.000 I talked to Ed Daines.

01:01:15.000 That's the guy that I talked to.

01:01:17.000 The only guy.

01:01:17.000 I would recommend people like Hal Puthoff.

01:01:21.000 He would be a very, very good person to talk to on this.

01:01:25.000 So how would someone learn how to do this and who figured it out initially?

01:01:32.000 Don't know who was necessarily the first.

01:01:36.000 You have early players like Pat Price, Ingo Swann, I think Helen Hammond, Joe Montego, those kinds of folks.

01:01:46.000 And I'm not sure the genesis of how it began.

01:01:49.000 A lot of times things happen by accident, right?

01:01:53.000 And you stumble on something and say, oh, wow, what just happened?

01:01:57.000 Right.

01:01:58.000 But it has to be some sort of a repeatable skill, like something that you could teach someone how to do, right?

01:02:04.000 Yeah, and I believe what I've been told is that most people have Some degree of abilities that are beyond the five senses.

01:02:16.000 And some have more of those abilities than other people.

01:02:21.000 And so it can be taught and built up and developed, but some people are more predisposed to certain kinds of stuff than other people are.

01:02:33.000 And so how would they train people to do something like this?

01:02:38.000 Who was the first person to figure out that they could do it, and then how do they train other people to do it?

01:02:43.000 Joel McMonago has a book.

01:02:46.000 I think he authored it back in 1993. And he had, I believe, a near-death experience about 1970-ish.

01:02:56.000 And, I mean, there's a lot of literature out there on the shelves that people can buy.

01:03:01.000 They can get a hold of this stuff without having to talk to these fellows and these people.

01:03:07.000 And the stories are amazing as to what they can do.

01:03:15.000 Purportedly, distance is irrelevant.

01:03:17.000 I mean, you could do something thousands of miles away and that could be the target.

01:03:21.000 And you can describe that target.

01:03:23.000 It doesn't have to be on the surface.

01:03:26.000 It can be a building.

01:03:27.000 It can be inside a building.

01:03:29.000 It can be inside a room.

01:03:31.000 I mean, it just really gets strange.

01:03:32.000 And so you have actually experienced this, and you are 100% on board with remote viewing.

01:03:38.000 You think it's real.

01:03:39.000 Well, I've experienced it to a we extent.

01:03:41.000 I hired a fellow to do it twice.

01:03:44.000 But he did it.

01:03:45.000 He did it.

01:03:46.000 That's not we.

01:03:47.000 That's pretty big.

01:03:49.000 If the guy did it, he did it.

01:03:51.000 And I sat once.

01:03:52.000 I got to sit behind a screen on a computer to play around a little bit.

01:03:57.000 So I don't have any real experience with this.

01:04:00.000 I just have a lot of admiration for the people who manage the programs and who can function that exercise.

01:04:09.000 It's really amazing.

01:04:12.000 There's an old story about Ingo Swann.

01:04:15.000 He's passed over.

01:04:18.000 How can I say that?

01:04:19.000 He's passed over.

01:04:20.000 You don't say he's passed.

01:04:22.000 He's passed over.

01:04:23.000 Well, now you know where my thought is about things.

01:04:25.000 Well, I do know where your thought is about things, but I'm going to get to that, too.

01:04:29.000 Okay.

01:04:30.000 But the way you describe it, he passed over.

01:04:32.000 Well, there's a story I love about Ingo.

01:04:35.000 He's being tested.

01:04:36.000 As always happens, you're trying to verify, verify, verify, right?

01:04:40.000 Trust, but verify, verify, always.

01:04:43.000 And like, you're doing exactly what you should be doing, is questioning.

01:04:46.000 Always questioning.

01:04:48.000 And so he's being tested by officials.

01:04:52.000 And they have a submarine that...

01:04:57.000 What is his target?

01:04:58.000 He doesn't know what his target is, of course.

01:05:01.000 And it might even have been a blind or double blind situation.

01:05:05.000 I don't know.

01:05:07.000 But they go to a lot of effort so that maybe even the person that's with you doesn't know what the target is.

01:05:12.000 That's usually the kind of protocols.

01:05:16.000 And he identifies the sub.

01:05:19.000 He identifies the sub accurately.

01:05:21.000 And this is an advanced sub that he's identifying.

01:05:27.000 So, it's underwater.

01:05:29.000 It's deep, and he's able to see this thing and describe it.

01:05:33.000 So it makes them pretty uneasy, and they're impressed.

01:05:37.000 This is like, wow, this is a big deal, this guy.

01:05:42.000 So it's not like, just how is he doing this?

01:05:44.000 It's like, he did this.

01:05:46.000 So they're calling the meeting kind of to a close.

01:05:50.000 He says, well, don't you want to know what's following it?

01:05:57.000 Duh! 1.00

01:05:58.000 Right?

01:05:59.000 See, then he starts describing this other craft that's following behind the sub.

01:06:05.000 Ingo was an amazing guy.

01:06:07.000 What was the other craft?

01:06:09.000 I guess it was some kind of UFO, something else that wasn't another sub, you know, of ours or Russians or anybody's.

01:06:17.000 That's one of the speculations about unidentified flying objects is that they're not just flying, that some of them actually exist underwater.

01:06:25.000 There's been many sightings of things that went into the ocean.

01:06:28.000 Yeah.

01:06:29.000 Oh, yeah.

01:06:29.000 What do you think of that?

01:06:30.000 Well, I mean, you know, supposedly, aren't there stories even about Christopher Columbus crew and so forth seeing things going back for centuries, things coming in and out of the water?

01:06:41.000 Well, that was part of the Tic Tac, the Commander David Fravor's encounter, that there was something below the surface of the water that was creating a wake, almost like rocks.

01:06:50.000 Yeah, it was churning.

01:06:51.000 It was a very large thing and that it went under as they approached and the Tic Tac craft faced them. 0.96

01:07:01.000 And that, you know, they don't know to this day what that thing was that was under the surface, but that's what led them to go and investigate in the first place.

01:07:08.000 And as they were going towards it, that's when they realized that there's this thing like, you know, roughly the size of this room.

01:07:16.000 Yeah, well in that carrier group was a ship or two that was bristling with electronic equipment.

01:07:24.000 And it's the first thing that sensed something out there.

01:07:29.000 And that's when my understanding was, and I'm going back a long time now, was that that's when they were launched to go check it out.

01:07:38.000 Because what was out there shouldn't be out there and behaving the way it was behaving according to all the electronics on this ship that was part of the battle group.

01:07:46.000 Right.

01:07:46.000 You know, with the aircraft carrier, I think a couple of subs, it was a battle group.

01:07:53.000 And so, and then they had eyes on the target now.

01:07:58.000 Yes.

01:07:58.000 Right?

01:07:59.000 So they're able to see firsthand for themselves what's going on.

01:08:03.000 Yeah.

01:08:03.000 And when they were speaking over the mic, they had found out that they had been encountering these things.

01:08:09.000 Yeah.

01:08:09.000 Because when Commander Fravor was inquiring, like, what the hell is this thing?

01:08:13.000 Yeah.

01:08:14.000 The other one was saying, like, we've been seeing these things over the last few weeks.

01:08:17.000 No one knows what it is.

01:08:19.000 Yeah.

01:08:20.000 But, like, what do you do about that?

01:08:22.000 I think sometimes better left alone, if you know they're really behaving fantastically, and they're not the Russians or Chinese or whatever, Go have a sandwich. 1.00

01:08:34.000 Forget about it.

01:08:35.000 Well, I don't think they have a choice.

01:08:36.000 I mean, you can't catch it.

01:08:38.000 It's literally jamming your radar.

01:08:41.000 You have images of it, and you know you're tracking it, and they're moving in a way that is literally impossible with our technology.

01:08:48.000 Right.

01:08:49.000 And what do you do?

01:08:50.000 Yeah.

01:08:50.000 You can't do anything.

01:08:51.000 What, are you going to go to war with it?

01:08:52.000 What are you going to do?

01:08:53.000 You're going to try to grab it?

01:08:55.000 And it's not like it's offensive.

01:08:57.000 It hasn't tried to attack you or do anything.

01:08:59.000 They've done nothing.

01:09:00.000 Yeah.

01:09:01.000 It's a very strange situation to be in, to be a fighter pilot with the most sophisticated military equipment and to encounter something that is beyond the scope of even imagination of what's possible.

01:09:15.000 Right.

01:09:17.000 Yeah.

01:09:18.000 You had encounters with Bob Lazar.

01:09:23.000 You know Bob, and you were around when Bob Lazar first came.

01:09:29.000 Now, is this going to be all about the Mylar balloon event?

01:09:32.000 What's the Mylar balloon event?

01:09:34.000 Oh, you don't know that one?

01:09:35.000 No.

01:09:37.000 So, we all jump in my car to go out to the Alien Inn area out there.

01:09:45.000 The Alien Inn is that...

01:09:47.000 Out there.

01:09:48.000 Yeah, it's like a bar or something.

01:09:50.000 North of that area.

01:09:53.000 And so, Bob Lazar, George Knapp, myself, and I think Gene Huff, who is Bob's friend, we all go out there.

01:10:03.000 Well, unbeknownst to me, Bob has a Mylar balloon, which really bounces their radar signature a lot for its size, and a bottle of gas.

01:10:16.000 Helium.

01:10:17.000 So we find our way back out in the desert, out there.

01:10:22.000 I'm thinking we're on a UFO watch, which is always fun.

01:10:27.000 Sometimes the best thing is the food you take along, right?

01:10:30.000 And you're out there under the stars, and it's nice, and you have a good time just watching.

01:10:37.000 But there's a rustle of things going on here, and next thing I know, there's a balloon, this mylar balloon's inflated, And there's a slight breeze, and Bob lets it go.

01:10:49.000 And we're on the opposite side of the mountain range from supposedly S4. And he wants to go that way.

01:10:58.000 Thank God the wind was going in the opposite direction.

01:11:01.000 It was traveling north instead of south.

01:11:03.000 And it went the wrong way.

01:11:05.000 So I'm thinking, my life's just passed before my eyes.

01:11:08.000 Why do you think your life passed before your eyes?

01:11:10.000 Because if the balloon goes towards area S4... It's going to get picked up, yeah.

01:11:13.000 And then they're going to go find out where it came from.

01:11:14.000 And Wackenhut security is going to come get us, and I'm going to spend the night in jail.

01:11:18.000 Right.

01:11:20.000 So, you know, it all just unraveled real quick.

01:11:23.000 And was this before Bob had gotten in trouble for bringing people to the observation point to watch?

01:11:28.000 Let's tell the story about Bob real quick.

01:11:30.000 Bob said he worked for Area S4 and he was hired to back engineer what they believe were alien crafts.

01:11:38.000 Along the lines, he had this top secret clearance, and along the lines of all this happening, they're monitoring his phone calls.

01:11:45.000 Turns out Bob's wife is having an affair.

01:11:47.000 Bob doesn't know about this.

01:11:49.000 They remove him from the project because they believe he'll be emotionally unstable.

01:11:53.000 So he's freaking out, not knowing, A, that his wife is having an affair, not knowing why he's pulled from this project.

01:12:00.000 Doesn't totally understand.

01:12:01.000 So he starts telling people about what he's doing and telling people, listen, I can take you to a place where once a week they do these tests.

01:12:08.000 So he starts bringing people to this area.

01:12:10.000 They see these objects flying in these spectacular ways that we really can't do with any of our conventional aircrafts.

01:12:19.000 And then Bob gets in trouble for that.

01:12:21.000 Then Bob goes on the George Knapp show and starts explaining all these different things, presumably for self-preservation.

01:12:29.000 Because the best way to probably protect your own life is to go public with this and explain everything that's happening.

01:12:36.000 And they can discredit you and make you look like a nut, but if they kill you, then it leads credence to your story.

01:12:44.000 Yeah, it gives you a very huge hardship.

01:12:46.000 So when do you fall into this story?

01:12:49.000 Well, you've just given me an overload of information now that I'm pretty much aware of.

01:12:54.000 But I don't know exactly when.

01:12:56.000 I don't think, as I recall it, everybody was pretty much at ease.

01:13:02.000 And it wasn't part of...

01:13:06.000 When year is this that this is all going on?

01:13:07.000 Oh, God.

01:13:09.000 I don't know.

01:13:10.000 Ninety-one?

01:13:12.000 So this is around that time.

01:13:13.000 This is around, when was he on George Knapp's show?

01:13:16.000 Yeah, somewhere in that time frame.

01:13:18.000 But I wasn't aware of a lot until much, until, I don't think at that time I was aware of him taking people out on, you know, Wednesday nights to go see something out there.

01:13:30.000 I kind of missed out on that or whatever.

01:13:32.000 And I don't think this was anything connected to that.

01:13:36.000 I think that was before this.

01:13:38.000 Yeah, probably.

01:13:39.000 That was...

01:13:39.000 I think you're dealing with him after he had met George and after he had told his story.

01:13:45.000 Yeah.

01:13:46.000 Because George is with you.

01:13:47.000 Oh, yeah.

01:13:48.000 Yeah, so obviously they had already met.

01:13:50.000 Oh, sure.

01:13:50.000 So...

01:13:52.000 What was your initial...

01:13:54.000 Obviously, you're a person that has a deep fascination with UFOs. 0.99

01:13:58.000 Now, here you are talking to this guy who's clearly a genius, brilliant guy, Bob Lazar, and he's telling you this fucking banana story.

01:14:06.000 He's out there back-engineering spacecrafts that came from another land that are using this element 115, this stuff that's just a theoretical element that wasn't even proven by Particle Collider until, what, 2013? 0.72

01:14:22.000 Somewhere along that line.

01:14:23.000 It was just theoretical up to that point.

01:14:25.000 So he's telling you about all this stuff.

01:14:27.000 What did you think?

01:14:31.000 I wanted to reserve judgment until I knew a lot more.

01:14:37.000 And the more he talked, the more interesting it became.

01:14:43.000 The more research that George did, things that he uncovered, it became more interesting.

01:14:49.000 And And so, as I said a while back, I think George was doing an interview with me, and I said, I wouldn't bet against Bob's, the truth of the majority of everything that Bob has said.

01:15:05.000 I wouldn't bet against it.

01:15:06.000 Could they be errors and omissions for different reasons?

01:15:09.000 Yeah, sure they could.

01:15:11.000 But I would tend to say Bob is legitimate.

01:15:23.000 And, you know, there's certain aspects of things that are parts of stories that you wonder, well, how could this happen and so forth?

01:15:32.000 But I think if you take all of the collective information and the work that George Knapp has done to validate things, it's awfully damn impressive.

01:15:43.000 George is such an important part of it because he's a legitimate investigative journalist, and that was his career.

01:15:48.000 And so he...

01:15:50.000 Poured himself into this.

01:15:51.000 Oh, yeah.

01:15:52.000 And exposed all the different aspects of this story that seemed to indicate that he's telling the truth.

01:16:00.000 Oh, yes.

01:16:01.000 And that's where it's crazy about it.

01:16:03.000 And George is not any normal journalist.

01:16:05.000 He's like what?

01:16:07.000 He has like six Peabody's?

01:16:09.000 Yes, he's fantastic.

01:16:10.000 So he's diving into this.

01:16:12.000 And the more he uncovers, the more it seems like Bob Lazar's story is legitimate.

01:16:16.000 Right.

01:16:17.000 So I like the philosophy of reserving judgment until you have a preponderance of evidence that really moves you one way or another.

01:16:29.000 You don't have to have 100%.

01:16:31.000 I go by reasonable doubt.

01:16:33.000 But what was it like for you to be this guy who's had this deep fascination with flying saucers?

01:16:39.000 And here you are, let me tell you my experience with Bob.

01:16:42.000 Doing this podcast with Bob, I wanted one of two things. 1.00

01:16:45.000 I wanted to go, oh this guy's full of shit. 1.00

01:16:47.000 Or I wanted, whoa, this guy's It seems like he's not full of shit. 1.00

01:16:53.000 I think he's telling the truth. 0.99

01:16:55.000 I think this guy really did encounter these aircrafts and really did work on these spaceships, whatever they are.

01:17:02.000 That's where I'm at right now. 0.99

01:17:03.000 My experience with him, my communication with him, he didn't seem like he's full of shit at all. 0.99

01:17:08.000 He's clearly a brilliant guy. 0.99

01:17:10.000 His story has not changed at all over the 30 plus years that he's been saying it.

01:17:16.000 It's a crazy story.

01:17:18.000 But when you are a person like yourself, you saw me even more than I, who is obsessed with this subject, the possibility of alien life that's visited this earth, and maybe even left crafts behind,

01:17:34.000 and maybe these crafts are in the possession of some secret government agencies that are trying to Observe them and back-engineer them.

01:17:42.000 What is it like to talk to this guy?

01:17:44.000 Because this guy has seen the thing you're looking for.

01:17:48.000 You're searching and all of your wondering and staring out into the heavens.

01:17:53.000 And here's a guy that has actually touched it.

01:17:57.000 Actually worked on it.

01:17:58.000 Been inside one.

01:17:59.000 Tried to figure out how they work.

01:18:01.000 Can't do it.

01:18:01.000 Doesn't understand it.

01:18:02.000 He's talking to these people.

01:18:04.000 Everything's compartmentalized.

01:18:05.000 You got the metallurgist people that are working on what kind of alloy this thing is made of.

01:18:10.000 You got him, who's a part of the people that are trying to understand the propulsion system.

01:18:14.000 And then you've got people that are giving you this information that, like, maybe they have been here forever.

01:18:21.000 Maybe this is a part of an archaeological dig.

01:18:24.000 Maybe they've been trying to study these things for decades with no advancement at all.

01:18:29.000 Yeah.

01:18:30.000 So we came across or myself and a couple other people came across folks who could collaborate some of the things going on out there.

01:18:44.000 Such as silent craft actually lifting off at nighttime.

01:18:51.000 Not looking as though the control was very good.

01:18:56.000 But actually lifting off, maneuvering like a real small trial kind of thing.

01:19:04.000 And that fellow observed it from a distance where he wasn't supposed to be.

01:19:09.000 George has come up with collaboration, I think, from two or three other sources also, besides what Bob said, about certain aspects of things out there.

01:19:18.000 It's just that Bob's story is so much more in-depth, so much more detailed, like that book, That he talked about years ago, coming across.

01:19:32.000 Amazing things.

01:19:33.000 Tell people about the book?

01:19:35.000 Well, there was a book, as I remember, there was some kind of a book that Bob was allowed to look through, or he actually seized the opportunity to do it when he was in a room where the book was,

01:19:52.000 but I think that was by design.

01:19:55.000 And it was some kind of a holographic book that as you opened up the pages, whatever the stories were became a hologram.

01:20:03.000 That's my recollection of a conversation that's decades old now.

01:20:08.000 So, you know, if I got it wrong, fire me.

01:20:15.000 You know, you'll have to talk to Bob about that, would you?

01:20:18.000 Or talk to George.

01:20:20.000 Because I remember something like that.

01:20:22.000 I mean, that was like, wow!

01:20:24.000 What an amazing way to portray information in some kind of a book and actually have holographic images coming forth out of the, you know, I don't know.

01:20:36.000 It just was...

01:20:37.000 So that, I haven't ever heard of that...

01:20:48.000 There was also some very strange summary of what they understand or what they believe to be true about the origins of human beings.

01:21:02.000 And that they believed that what these visitations were about was that human beings are the product of accelerated evolution.

01:21:09.000 And that these species from wherever had been coming here and doing genetic experiments with primates and created human beings.

01:21:20.000 Which is the ultimate, like, who knows, like, wow, that's fun to think about, but...

01:21:26.000 We were talking about this last night, like how bizarre humans are, that out of all these things on Earth, we're the only ones with shoes.

01:21:34.000 Out of all these things, we're the only ones that have to wear clothes, we're the only ones that jump into metal boxes with rubber tires and roll around these hard surfaces that we created, or fly in planes, or send video through your phone to other people that are on the other side of the continent.

01:21:49.000 We're weird.

01:21:50.000 We're real weird.

01:21:51.000 We're way weirder than anything else that exists.

01:21:54.000 And if we are really a product of some sort of accelerated process like that, this is how they get the party started on these planets.

01:22:04.000 They find semi-intelligent, curious animals that are using tools or using, you know, opposable thumbs.

01:22:12.000 And they do some things to them.

01:22:17.000 Yeah, they...

01:22:20.000 There's a large variety of potential beginnings.

01:22:29.000 More evidence for some than others, right?

01:22:32.000 So that's always the trick.

01:22:35.000 Have you considered that?

01:22:36.000 Is this like a subject that you've deeply considered and thought about?

01:22:41.000 Not really.

01:22:42.000 Really?

01:22:43.000 Really?

01:22:44.000 I'm here.

01:22:45.000 I don't want to look a gift horse in the face.

01:22:47.000 I'll take it for what it is, you know.

01:22:49.000 Really?

01:22:53.000 I think about it a lot.

01:22:54.000 I don't know.

01:22:55.000 I think I need more evidence to be more curious about.

01:23:01.000 I'm more concerned about other kinds of things that are now than where do the human species come from particularly.

01:23:08.000 I'm more driven by other kinds of things that could make a difference today going forward.

01:23:15.000 So getting back to the Bob Lazar thing, when you first got to know him and you first were considering this story and how crazy it was, what was it like to meet a guy who, at least by his own accounts, had encountered this thing that you were seeking?

01:23:32.000 Well, Bob's a likable guy.

01:23:34.000 As you said, he's very smart.

01:23:36.000 And so he's interesting to talk to, right?

01:23:39.000 Yeah.

01:23:39.000 And so that's more than just entertaining.

01:23:45.000 To listen to his story is profound, right?

01:23:48.000 And so it gives you an awful lot to think about and to try to position as to how can you measure future information you might get against that story.

01:24:01.000 How can you verify different kinds of things?

01:24:05.000 And so I've heard a lot more silly things, I think, than what Bob was talking about. 0.96

01:24:15.000 It didn't seem all that ridiculous.

01:24:19.000 And then the more you get to talk to him, the more you get to know him, and people like George, who's an investigative journalist, it gets more and more, wow.

01:24:31.000 Yeah.

01:24:34.000 If there's one thing that I could know about on this earth involving human beings, I think that's the thing.

01:24:43.000 There's a lot of things I'd like to know who killed Kennedy.

01:24:46.000 There's a lot of things I'd like to know, but whether or not that's real.

01:24:50.000 To be in that hangar and see that ship and to go walk through it with him and to really understand that this is not from here.

01:25:01.000 I think that would be the one.

01:25:04.000 And have crashes been intentional?

01:25:07.000 Yeah, that's a weird one to me.

01:25:08.000 We were discussing that last night.

01:25:10.000 The problem with that is there's also this discussion of alien bodies.

01:25:15.000 If crashes have been intentional, what do you have?

01:25:17.000 Suicide bombers?

01:25:18.000 Just for our own edification? 0.96

01:25:20.000 That seems silly.

01:25:21.000 And that's really disheartening to think that someone could come here from another galaxy and still get tripped up by lightning. 0.79

01:25:27.000 Yeah, but maybe they're just anthropomorphic.

01:25:29.000 Maybe they're more robotic.

01:25:32.000 Maybe that's our future, right?

01:25:34.000 At what point does a species have a spirit or a soul?

01:25:40.000 Could a machine, even if it's very advanced and can think better than we can think and calculate faster and actually understands fear, love, passions?

01:25:52.000 Would it ever evolve to having a soul or a spirit?

01:25:58.000 That's a good question.

01:26:00.000 Yeah, it's a different kind of question.

01:26:01.000 It's also a good question as to are those things imperative for life?

01:26:04.000 When we think of ego, when we think of our mating instincts and all the various pleasant and unpleasant aspects of being a human being, how many of them are impediments to growth and progress?

01:26:19.000 What is growth and progress, right?

01:26:21.000 What are we trying to achieve?

01:26:24.000 Mastery of the elements and of life.

01:26:26.000 Are we trying to keep peace?

01:26:29.000 Are we trying to make things better but stay human?

01:26:34.000 Like, what are we trying to do?

01:26:35.000 Because when we talk about artificial life, It's just artificial in terms of the fact that another life form has created it.

01:26:44.000 But if they figure out a way to...

01:26:46.000 You've seen Ex Machina, that movie?

01:26:49.000 No.

01:26:50.000 You haven't?

01:26:50.000 No.

01:26:50.000 How dare you?

01:26:51.000 How dare you?

01:26:52.000 Go out and see it right now.

01:26:53.000 Hey, I live in the desert.

01:26:54.000 Well, listen, they have movies in the desert.

01:26:56.000 I've been to the desert.

01:26:57.000 It's a great movie.

01:26:58.000 Fantastic movie.

01:26:59.000 One of my favorites ever.

01:27:00.000 And it is about this super genius guy who develops these artificially intelligent humanoids.

01:27:07.000 And it's...

01:27:11.000 There's a lot of suspension of disbelief when you're watching a science fiction movie that takes place in modern era that has robots that look exactly like people and have emotions and thoughts and stuff.

01:27:22.000 But it makes you wonder, how far away are we from something like that?

01:27:27.000 Some super intelligent thing that we create ourselves, and then it can create other super intelligent things.

01:27:32.000 Are we 50 years?

01:27:34.000 Are we 100 years?

01:27:36.000 When is that going to happen?

01:27:38.000 Or are we going to become some sort of symbiotic creation?

01:27:43.000 Are we going to merge with technology instead of create some sort of technological being?

01:27:50.000 Are we going to become one?

01:27:51.000 And that's one of the things that I've always been very curious about when it comes to these aliens.

01:27:58.000 Iconic aliens that people experience, they always seem like what we will look like in the future.

01:28:06.000 If you look at a chimpanzee or a gorilla, they're much more muscular than human beings, they're much stronger, they're covered in hair, they have smaller heads.

01:28:16.000 And then our heads are bigger, our bodies are smaller, we're weaker and softer.

01:28:21.000 And then if you continue to move forward and we advance and evolve and eliminate a lot of the problems that human beings experience, whether it's because of war or crime or all these different things that trip us up as a society and as a culture,

01:28:39.000 these things are all connected to tribalism and biology and emotions and the desire to sexually procreate.

01:28:49.000 If they eliminate all of those things with technology over time, and you get these genital-less aliens that have these enormous heads and that don't communicate with mouth noises anymore, they communicate with thoughts, and they don't have the need for physical strength anymore,

01:29:08.000 so their bodies are these tiny childlike things, but they have godlike powers.

01:29:12.000 Is that our future?

01:29:14.000 So is there a prerequisite And all of that for the reptilian brainstem to be eliminated.

01:29:24.000 Is there the potential for either inanimate objects or combination biological material android type of objects to have consciousness?

01:29:49.000 And what is it to be human in the first place?

01:29:53.000 Well, if you have bred out or artificially created Something that is close to whatever perfect might be, as opposed to a human being that's very imperfect.

01:30:10.000 A human being has all kinds of imperfections, all kinds of emotional imperfections and capabilities that go from here to here.

01:30:23.000 And so that is what it's like to be a human being.

01:30:28.000 We are very imperfect.

01:30:31.000 And so we're in a class by ourselves.

01:30:35.000 Now you introduce something else.

01:30:39.000 Maybe our consciousness is unique to being a human being.

01:30:46.000 And it's not possible to actually evolve consciousness in an artificial mechanism.

01:30:53.000 So, consciousness and thought are two different kinds of things, like mind and brain are two different kinds of things.

01:31:02.000 So consciousness, to me, is a force.

01:31:11.000 Like we just saw, colignia, whether you think it's real or not, but there are many other demonstrations of being able to use consciousness, attention, as a force upon something.

01:31:23.000 To either gather information you shouldn't be gathering from remote viewing, or moving an object, you know, it's a different kind of force.

01:31:31.000 Thought is a creative mechanism.

01:31:35.000 And thought can come to promoting the force.

01:31:41.000 In other words, to channel the conscious effort.

01:31:45.000 I don't mean to be getting off the topic, but I think...

01:31:48.000 No, I don't think it's off the topic at all.

01:31:50.000 Okay.

01:31:52.000 So then it comes down to, even if you did create those kinds of advanced...

01:32:00.000 Beings, whatever, why did you do it? 0.86

01:32:05.000 Why?

01:32:06.000 You know, is perfection that important?

01:32:10.000 I mean, does everything have to be perfect, or isn't there some beauty in having some imperfections?

01:32:17.000 Well, here's the question.

01:32:20.000 All of the human elements that we talked about, whether they're emotions or the desire to procreate sexually or jealousy and rage and territorial behavior,

01:32:36.000 tribalism, all the awful and great things about human beings' ego.

01:32:42.000 All those things lead people to want to do things, to get recognized, to get attention.

01:32:49.000 And they also want to get recognized for their achievements.

01:32:52.000 And they also want to push things past the boundaries that have been established by other people that are in the same business or the same creative venture as them.

01:33:02.000 Whether it's artificial intelligence or whether it's art or creativity or music or anything that people do.

01:33:08.000 They're always piggybacking on the work of the people that came before them.

01:33:12.000 It's part of being a person.

01:33:14.000 With everything.

01:33:15.000 With architecture.

01:33:16.000 With technology.

01:33:18.000 Everything is piggybacking on the work before it.

01:33:21.000 And these things are motivated by these very imperfect aspects of being a person.

01:33:26.000 By ego.

01:33:28.000 By the desire to be loved.

01:33:30.000 By all these...

01:33:31.000 And even by the positive things.

01:33:34.000 By curiosity.

01:33:34.000 By creativity.

01:33:35.000 All these...

01:33:37.000 Soup of influences are all making people advance technology and innovate.

01:33:45.000 That, if you just extrapolate, if you just look at what technology is, and if you look at what we're doing.

01:33:52.000 If you were from another planet and you had no idea about human culture, you had no idea, and you had no...

01:34:00.000 No familiarity to the human form and to what our life is like down here.

01:34:04.000 And you looked at us.

01:34:05.000 You would say, well, what is this species doing?

01:34:08.000 What are they doing?

01:34:09.000 Well, I'll tell you what they're doing.

01:34:10.000 They're making stuff.

01:34:11.000 And they're making better stuff every year.

01:34:13.000 That's what the species does.

01:34:14.000 What do bees do? 1.00

01:34:16.000 They make beehives.

01:34:16.000 They make honey.

01:34:17.000 But they do the same shit every year. 1.00

01:34:19.000 Human beings don't. 1.00

01:34:20.000 They need a new goddamn phone every year. 1.00

01:34:21.000 The TVs get bigger. 1.00

01:34:22.000 The cars get faster.

01:34:23.000 Everything they do is better.

01:34:25.000 The computers have more terabytes of hard drive.

01:34:28.000 Their processors work quicker.

01:34:30.000 The video cards are better.

01:34:31.000 Everything's better.

01:34:32.000 No one's settling for less good.

01:34:34.000 Everybody wants better and they want better constantly.

01:34:37.000 And they want to show their friends.

01:34:38.000 It's part of being attractive.

01:34:41.000 Look, look at Johnny.

01:34:43.000 He's got the new car.

01:34:44.000 He's got the new phone.

01:34:45.000 She's got the new watch.

01:34:47.000 You've got the new Oculus Rift headsets.

01:34:49.000 You got this and that.

01:34:50.000 We make technology.

01:34:51.000 It's our primary thing.

01:34:53.000 We work, we get ourselves together like human batteries, and we generate income and revenue, and we're all obsessed with making or buying better stuff.

01:35:05.000 That's what we do.

01:35:06.000 Now, what does that mean, ultimately?

01:35:08.000 Well, it means technology.

01:35:10.000 Technology is the pinnacle of human achievement.

01:35:13.000 It's the stuff that puts us into space.

01:35:15.000 It's the stuff that allows us to videotape things.

01:35:18.000 It's stuff that allows us to essentially capture time.

01:35:21.000 You can capture time on a phone and play it back to people.

01:35:24.000 This is when I showed Jeremy this thing and we both laughed.

01:35:27.000 Ha ha ha!

01:35:27.000 Look, you can laugh too.

01:35:28.000 You can laugh at our memory.

01:35:30.000 That's what it's doing.

01:35:31.000 Well, we're gonna get better at that.

01:35:32.000 It's gonna keep getting better and better and better.

01:35:34.000 Well, where does that lead to?

01:35:36.000 It leads to some sort of singularity.

01:35:39.000 It leads to some sort of paradigm-shifting invention where all of these technologies piggyback onto themselves until we reach some sort of pinnacle of human achievement.

01:35:51.000 And I think that's probably going to be some kind of artificial life or some sort of a symbiotic relationship I don't think it's enough,

01:36:10.000 and I don't think it's altogether better.

01:36:14.000 I don't think it's altogether better either, but I think it's going that way.

01:36:16.000 I think you've got half the coin.

01:36:18.000 Half the coin?

01:36:19.000 Yeah.

01:36:20.000 You're missing the other side.

01:36:21.000 What's the other side?

01:36:22.000 Okay.

01:36:23.000 So you've built this societal empire of technological achievements, right?

01:36:29.000 That's what we have right now, right?

01:36:31.000 Well, and who knows in 50 years or 150 years, whatever.

01:36:35.000 Okay.

01:36:37.000 I think you've just described an infrastructure for a serious problem coming.

01:36:45.000 Yeah.

01:36:47.000 What if you were to create a graph and on the graph were just two things, two lines, and you were tracking over the last 150 years spiritual maturity among the species.

01:37:05.000 The 20th century was the worst annihilation of people, 60 million people ever, in terms of numbers.

01:37:12.000 Wars, right?

01:37:14.000 What if you were to track in that same graph the progress of technology?

01:37:20.000 Well, you'd have one vertical line, the technological line, in the 20th century and now.

01:37:27.000 And it would probably be segmented, which I mean it's jumping.

01:37:31.000 It's going faster than arithmetic progression or any normal progression.

01:37:37.000 It's jumping.

01:37:40.000 So it might be at a 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 situation.

01:37:46.000 Now you look at the spirituality line.

01:37:48.000 It's practically flatlined.

01:37:51.000 So what's the consequences of that eventually?

01:37:55.000 What do you mean by the spirituality?

01:38:00.000 I think species needs to have grounding spiritually.

01:38:08.000 I think a species have to have an essence of spirituality.

01:38:12.000 Something that in their being, to their bones, says it makes a difference what you do.

01:38:21.000 It makes a difference how you behave.

01:38:26.000 For your overall good and the good of others, and it makes a difference.

01:38:32.000 So an intelligent species like us, not just all species.

01:38:35.000 Correct.

01:38:36.000 Sure, us.

01:38:37.000 The most intelligent?

01:38:38.000 Yes, right.

01:38:39.000 So if you don't have a grounding, though, in a solid spiritual philosophy in a species like us, like humans, then you're rolling the dice on handing A species that might be immature spiritually.

01:39:00.000 Some very advanced, dangerous stuff that can be used as weaponry or just misused and abused in other kinds of ways.

01:39:12.000 And maybe the species thinks it knows it all, and it's cavalier, it's careless about the disposition of the technologies.

01:39:19.000 But more than likely, it's hostile, because things tend to be weaponized.

01:39:24.000 So you wind up with a species that's more like the Klingons than you want. 1.00

01:39:29.000 So you wouldn't want to be on some other planet and having these discover you, right? 0.91

01:39:34.000 So I think those two lines are really important to try to harmonize.

01:39:39.000 The problem is, there's no intersection in sight.

01:39:42.000 In our lifetimes and other lifetimes, there's no intersections in sight.

01:39:47.000 We haven't even begun to create a homogeneity of spirituality in the human species compared to the proliferation of technologies.

01:39:57.000 So that incongruity can be a really serious problem someday.

01:40:01.000 Maybe.

01:40:02.000 Yeah, for sure.

01:40:05.000 I mean, if we continue to concentrate only on things and on improving technology, but not improving the way we communicate with each other and love each other.

01:40:13.000 Exactly.

01:40:14.000 Yeah.

01:40:14.000 Exactly.

01:40:15.000 So what's the solution?

01:40:17.000 Wow.

01:40:18.000 I mean, that's the big, you know, that's the $64,000 question that they used to say.

01:40:24.000 Yeah.

01:40:24.000 Old television program.

01:40:26.000 Yeah, I mean, that's what is a solution, you know?

01:40:29.000 But who ponders that?

01:40:31.000 Who ever ponders this?

01:40:33.000 Only people with a lot of free time.

01:40:35.000 Yeah, I suppose so.

01:40:36.000 Yeah.

01:40:37.000 Some monks on the mountainside somewhere.

01:40:40.000 Some Buddhists someplace. 1.00

01:40:41.000 That's the problem with the way we live our lives.

01:40:43.000 We're very, very busy with things that aren't exactly spiritually satisfying, right?

01:40:49.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:40:51.000 There's a tremendous amount of Of noise for attention.

01:40:55.000 And so, when do you get the time to just to think?

01:40:58.000 Right.

01:41:01.000 When do you?

01:41:03.000 Who, me?

01:41:03.000 Yeah, when do you?

01:41:06.000 I'm too busy running in circles.

01:41:08.000 But I know you think about these things, and I know you've thought a lot about consciousness, and this is one of the things that you've studied.

01:41:16.000 One of the things you're involved in is the concept of whether or not consciousness extends beyond death.

01:41:22.000 Right.

01:41:23.000 Yeah.

01:41:25.000 And what do you think?

01:41:26.000 I think it's a really important subject.

01:41:30.000 So we have two Holy Grails.

01:41:33.000 And the second Holy Grail is, are we alone?

01:41:36.000 As you've said, and everybody kind of is attracted to that question.

01:41:41.000 The other is, do aspects of your consciousness survive your bodily death?

01:41:49.000 So, is there a difference between mind and brain?

01:41:55.000 So, is brain the generator and mind is a reservoir and actually more causal than the brain is, in a sense?

01:42:04.000 So, in theory, the question relates to, gosh, you are doing away with the brain if the container decomposes and dies and is permanently offline.

01:42:17.000 Are there any aspects of your mind that continues?

01:42:19.000 Does your consciousness continue?

01:42:22.000 That is a question that has been attempted to answer since maybe the dawn of man.

01:42:30.000 A loved one has just died.

01:42:35.000 Is there any way to recapture that?

01:42:37.000 Any way at all?

01:42:39.000 Well, no.

01:42:40.000 It's written off.

01:42:41.000 It's gone.

01:42:42.000 And that is just a relevant question today as ever because you have a lot of...

01:42:47.000 Desparate kinds of folks' beliefs, and you have religions that are against that notion altogether, and so you have a huge amount of differences in people's philosophy, driven by religious beliefs or just the way they've arrived at their own conclusions or whatever.

01:43:08.000 So you have to be respectful of all these different kinds of beliefs and try to yet approach that subject in a way that is somehow determinable.

01:43:25.000 Try to arrive at something that maybe is not 100%, but can you find answers in different ways that drive you into the high levels, 80, 85, 90, 95%, that you're leaning towards that?

01:43:41.000 That would be really good news if you could legitimately do that for yourself and know that you have something else in addition to this.

01:43:51.000 That's always been what religions have strived for, right? 1.00

01:43:57.000 To show people that there's something more than this life.

01:44:01.000 Oh, yeah.

01:44:01.000 There's something beyond.

01:44:03.000 It's their backyard.

01:44:03.000 There's something waiting.

01:44:04.000 Yeah, for the majority of religions.

01:44:06.000 It's their backyard, and there's all kinds of promises about what our backyard contains if you're a follower of our religions.

01:44:15.000 Yeah, and the cynical people would always say, well, they're just trying to promise you that to get you to behave in this life, but there's really no evidence whatsoever that anything happens once you die.

01:44:24.000 But then you have people that have had near-death experiences, and those are the weird ones, because they've had these near-death experiences, and they almost always come back saying it's going to be okay.

01:44:34.000 They almost always come back going, there's something more to this.

01:44:37.000 And we don't know what those near-death experiences are.

01:44:42.000 We know that certain aspects of them can be recreated with psychedelic drugs.

01:44:47.000 And we do know that the brain produces psychedelic drugs.

01:44:51.000 Particularly DMT. And people that have had experiences on psychedelics have had these moments.

01:45:00.000 Like Larry Haggard, the guy from Dallas.

01:45:02.000 Remember that?

01:45:03.000 Oh yeah.

01:45:04.000 He famously was on CNN once, and I watched this interview where he was talking about how he had a high-dose LSD experience once.

01:45:10.000 He never worried about death ever again.

01:45:12.000 And he was talking about it, and the CNN anchor was clearly a little rattled.

01:45:18.000 Because I believe what they were talking about was his...

01:45:22.000 Green home.

01:45:23.000 He had this home that operated off the grid and he had it all set up so it was really well insulated and solar powered and all this stuff so that he could not have a heavy carbon footprint.

01:45:35.000 So they're talking about this and along the line they get to talking about his LSD experience and death.

01:45:42.000 It was pretty trippy to see him say that and to see them going, oh.

01:45:46.000 But many people that have had intense psychedelic experiences have had this thing happen to them where they believe they've gone to another dimension.

01:45:57.000 They've gone to this other place that seems more real.

01:46:00.000 From my own personal experiences, I've had these.

01:46:02.000 Where you go to these realms that seem more real than the realm that you're living in and you encounter something.

01:46:10.000 Whether this something is an imaginary or whether it's actually, you could put it on a scale and measure it.

01:46:17.000 I'm not sure if it matters because it's still a thing you experience.

01:46:22.000 Did you have, after these experiences, did you have any kind of evidence afterwards that you could draw a connection between what you saw in the visions and actually now what you discovered?

01:46:36.000 I mean, was there anything that popped up later on that connected the two?

01:46:40.000 No.

01:46:42.000 No, there's no evidence.

01:46:45.000 Even the memory is shaky.

01:46:48.000 Your memories are shaky just like the memories of a dream are shaky.

01:46:52.000 But when it happens, and I've done it a bunch of times, every time it happens you're like, oh yeah, I remember this.

01:46:59.000 Because it's so intense.

01:47:01.000 And each time that you do it, is it more vivid?

01:47:03.000 No, it's always vivid.

01:47:05.000 You can't get more vivid.

01:47:07.000 It doesn't get any more vivid.

01:47:09.000 It's just, it's way more vivid than life.

01:47:11.000 What do you learn as you've been doing this multiple times?

01:47:14.000 What's the lessons learned?

01:47:17.000 Abandonment of the ego is a big one.

01:47:18.000 That's the big one.

01:47:19.000 That your ego and your desire to protect yourself from failing or from reality, that those things are ultimately very detrimental to your consciousness, very detrimental to the way you communicate with other people.

01:47:32.000 And that it's a battle, a constant battle to abandon these monkey instincts that we all have.

01:47:39.000 And that these things have protected us and gotten us to this stage, but they can ultimately trip you up as you try to sort of understand yourself better.

01:47:48.000 You know, you're just hitting on something in the literature of survival of consciousness, of which there's hundreds or thousands of books that you could actually access and people to talk to.

01:48:01.000 The message seems to be in the literature, abandonment of the ego is a very important thing to do.

01:48:09.000 It's a very important thing as you've passed over.

01:48:11.000 That's one of the things that happens, is to try to remove the ego and shove it aside.

01:48:18.000 Yeah, it seems to be...

01:48:23.000 That's an impediment to learning in a lot of different ways.

01:48:28.000 It's an impediment to learning art.

01:48:30.000 It's an impediment to learning because you think you're better than you are if you let your ego lie to you.

01:48:34.000 Oh, sure.

01:48:34.000 Same with technical skills, physical skills.

01:48:38.000 You can lie to yourself.

01:48:39.000 Yeah.

01:48:40.000 A lot of that is the ego.

01:48:41.000 But the ego is also what keeps you alive.

01:48:43.000 It's the thing that makes you want to be successful.

01:48:47.000 It's the thing that makes you want to progress.

01:48:49.000 It's the thing that makes you want to accomplish things.

01:48:53.000 One of the keys to an actualized life is to Progress, move your motivation away from ego to the fascination in problem solving and acquiring skills and getting better at tasks.

01:49:12.000 Is that there's something interesting in it.

01:49:15.000 And especially if you're doing something that benefits other people.

01:49:18.000 When it benefits other people that you get better at these things because these other people get to enjoy these things on a higher level.

01:49:23.000 Then you get this cool feeling of actually...

01:49:27.000 It's benefiting people, actually helping people with your fascination with these things.

01:49:32.000 And the more you concentrate on the ego, the more it'll taint whatever progress you're making.

01:49:41.000 It'll taint whatever thing you're creating.

01:49:43.000 So back to the near-death experiences, so let's suppose that You just look at the ones that come along naturally.

01:49:51.000 Somebody has flatlined on an operating table, they've fallen through the ice, whatever.

01:50:01.000 There are so many near-death experiencers.

01:50:06.000 I've heard numbers that are ridiculous in the millions of people in this country, not just in the world.

01:50:14.000 And so there's a hell of a lot of smoke.

01:50:19.000 There must be an awful lot of heat somewhere in terms of the probability that this is real.

01:50:27.000 Because other explanations are really tough.

01:50:29.000 Now, you can have out-of-body experiences, and you can validate conversations in a room.

01:50:34.000 You should have no way of understanding where tools were taken from what drawers or anything like that, what people look like, because you're gone.

01:50:41.000 You're under anesthesia, right?

01:50:43.000 There's no way.

01:50:45.000 And yet, the literature is replete with stories, thousands of stories like that.

01:50:51.000 And same thing with near-death stories.

01:50:53.000 You know, huge volume of information.

01:50:56.000 Every example you can possibly imagine.

01:50:59.000 And so then you wonder, well, how can you correlate that?

01:51:07.000 How can you correlate anything to do with did the person have an experience, not just through the tunnel, but what they saw afterwards in that period of time after they exited the tunnel into wherever they were?

01:51:21.000 And how do we verify that what they actually saw was the other side?

01:51:28.000 Not only that, you have different human beings with a different understanding of language.

01:51:33.000 So they have limited vocabulary or limited ability to describe things or limited ability to express themselves.

01:51:39.000 And maybe they're not so good at relaying what it was.

01:51:43.000 And does it fit with their religions?

01:51:45.000 Right.

01:51:45.000 And their philosophies?

01:51:47.000 Right.

01:51:48.000 Yeah.

01:51:48.000 And how much of it do you distort when you get back to make yourself feel better?

01:51:54.000 How much do you actually share with people?

01:51:57.000 I mean, remember, you were talking about your childhood experience.

01:52:00.000 You didn't even want to share with your wife.

01:52:02.000 When people have a near-death experience, maybe some of it's unpleasant.

01:52:06.000 I didn't want to share it with her.

01:52:07.000 She might have said, go sleep in the other room. 0.94

01:52:10.000 I don't want you around me.

01:52:12.000 Why take the chance?

01:52:14.000 People have a real fear of being ridiculed.

01:52:18.000 To be ridiculed for a near-death experience is probably similar to being ridiculed for a UFO encounter or ridiculed for any other super spectacular thing that most people are never going to experience.

01:52:30.000 Right, right.

01:52:31.000 So when you have talked about this the ability to measure whether consciousness exists outside of life how can that be measured and what steps can be made to try to quantify and to try to validate whether or not this is a real thing You don't want to hear this I do want to hear this All right.

01:53:00.000 How can you say I don't want to hear this?

01:53:02.000 Well, I don't know.

01:53:03.000 I'm just guessing.

01:53:03.000 Anybody wants to hear this.

01:53:04.000 I'm just guessing.

01:53:04.000 I'm sitting here with a reptilian brainstem trying to keep up.

01:53:08.000 All right.

01:53:09.000 So how do you verify a near-death experience?

01:53:14.000 It might be that there's some kind of messaging that can happen.

01:53:19.000 From whoever greeted you temporarily on the other side because you are coming back.

01:53:26.000 And maybe that message can be verified in some way.

01:53:30.000 Maybe it's something that doesn't make sense to you.

01:53:32.000 Okay?

01:53:33.000 So you do come back.

01:53:35.000 You snap back into this reality.

01:53:39.000 You're alive.

01:53:41.000 And sure enough, what was conveyed to you from the other side actually happens.

01:53:47.000 And it wasn't something that was expected.

01:53:49.000 It was profound in some way.

01:53:53.000 And so that might be a way of verifying through this message that you had no other way of knowing or predicting that this was going to happen.

01:54:03.000 There's also the subject of psychic mediums.

01:54:08.000 Alright.

01:54:09.000 I can see stone face right now.

01:54:13.000 You're not buying it.

01:54:14.000 Alright.

01:54:14.000 I didn't say anything.

01:54:15.000 I know.

01:54:16.000 I always give stone face.

01:54:17.000 I'm looking at you.

01:54:17.000 I give stone face when people talk.

01:54:19.000 Okay.

01:54:19.000 Alright.

01:54:20.000 But yeah, most psychic mediums I think are full of shit. 1.00

01:54:22.000 Yeah, I know. 1.00

01:54:24.000 So, okay.

01:54:26.000 Doesn't mean they're all.

01:54:27.000 Well, okay.

01:54:29.000 No, say that again. 0.99

01:54:30.000 It doesn't mean they're all bullshit. 0.99

01:54:31.000 Okay. 0.99

01:54:32.000 Okay.

01:54:33.000 Good.

01:54:33.000 All right.

01:54:34.000 All right.

01:54:35.000 Yeah.

01:54:35.000 And some are a whole lot better than others.

01:54:37.000 Yes.

01:54:38.000 Look, it's like everything else.

01:54:39.000 There's con artists out there. 0.75

01:54:41.000 Yes.

01:54:41.000 And then there's people that are genuinely unique.

01:54:45.000 Yes.

01:54:46.000 Yeah, absolutely.

01:54:47.000 Yeah.

01:54:48.000 World-class performers.

01:54:50.000 Yeah.

01:54:51.000 And so, of course, you can't help yourself but try to get information that falls in the categories that they should have no way of knowing.

01:55:03.000 In fact, you might not even know the information yourself at that moment in time.

01:55:07.000 Right.

01:55:07.000 You know, you'll say no.

01:55:08.000 Or it's only later after you've listened to the recording or whatever that, oh my gosh, they were right.

01:55:16.000 And this and this and that.

01:55:17.000 So that is a very important source of information, assuming you're talking to ones that have been legitimatized, right?

01:55:28.000 And they've been bona fide.

01:55:30.000 Do you know any?

01:55:32.000 I know a very good one.

01:55:34.000 You know a really good psychic medium.

01:55:36.000 Can I meet that person?

01:55:39.000 I don't see why not.

01:55:41.000 I mean, it's up to them too, right?

01:55:43.000 Yeah.

01:55:43.000 But I think that would be...

01:55:44.000 Yeah, I would...

01:55:46.000 I'll ask.

01:55:48.000 What does this person do professionally?

01:55:50.000 Are they a psychic medium professionally?

01:55:52.000 So they make money doing it? 0.60

01:55:56.000 This person...

01:56:00.000 Isn't motivated by, as far as my understanding is, by just doing these things as a business.

01:56:11.000 This person will do readings pro bono.

01:56:21.000 Without a fee.

01:56:22.000 Without charging.

01:56:23.000 That's promising.

01:56:25.000 Uh-huh.

01:56:26.000 And...

01:56:27.000 That helps.

01:56:29.000 That helps believe you.

01:56:30.000 Or helps you believe them, rather.

01:56:33.000 They have a family.

01:56:34.000 The person has a family and so on.

01:56:37.000 It's always a woman. 1.00

01:56:38.000 Why is it always a woman that's really good at it? 1.00

01:56:40.000 What did I do?

01:56:41.000 Is it a woman? 0.85

01:56:41.000 What did I say? 0.85

01:56:43.000 Is it a woman? 0.85

01:56:45.000 Actually, yes.

01:56:47.000 Well, it is interesting.

01:56:49.000 Why...

01:56:50.000 Psychic mediums tend to be women. 1.00

01:56:52.000 I think because women have to be worried about men because men are fucking crazy. 1.00

01:56:56.000 And, you know, men are more violent and women are probably more intuitive because they got to pay more attention to these assholes. 1.00

01:57:03.000 Well, you know, pound for pound, they're the best astronaut there is. 1.00

01:57:06.000 Women? 1.00

01:57:07.000 Of course.

01:57:07.000 Yeah?

01:57:08.000 Of course.

01:57:08.000 You get all that brain power.

01:57:11.000 In a package that doesn't weigh as much.

01:57:13.000 Oh, that makes sense.

01:57:14.000 Yeah, you're launching less weight, so there you go.

01:57:18.000 But all kidding aside, yeah, psychic mediums are a really good legitimate source of getting alternate information that helps to collaborate things maybe that have happened other ways or information that's come maybe from a near-death experiencer,

01:57:35.000 you know, for example.

01:57:38.000 But outside of psychic mediums, when you're talking about measuring whether or not consciousness exists outside of life, whether or not your consciousness somehow or another transcends your physical body.

01:57:51.000 Right.

01:57:52.000 So you've heard of automatic writing?

01:57:54.000 Yes.

01:57:56.000 Can you explain it to people's sake?

01:57:58.000 It has nothing to do with your wife automatically going into your checkbook. 1.00

01:58:03.000 It's got nothing to do with that.

01:58:04.000 Do people write checks anymore?

01:58:06.000 That's automatic writing.

01:58:07.000 Oh, okay.

01:58:08.000 They don't do that anymore.

01:58:08.000 I'm old-fashioned.

01:58:09.000 They bank online.

01:58:10.000 I write a check.

01:58:11.000 I understand.

01:58:11.000 I write a check.

01:58:13.000 Explain automatic writing to people.

01:58:14.000 All right.

01:58:15.000 So, apparently, it's something that has occurred for many, many years, especially back when the study of spiritualism and the whole...

01:58:35.000 Investigations of psychics was very, very strong from about 1835 or 40 to 1930-ish.

01:58:45.000 And then it has continued in some ways up until recent times.

01:58:51.000 So you have somebody who is writing and they are being controlled by a spirit.

01:59:03.000 Or they're in a trance.

01:59:05.000 Or maybe they're in a trance.

01:59:06.000 But they could be lucid.

01:59:08.000 It doesn't have to be in a non-lucid trance.

01:59:11.000 They could be lucid in the writing or they could be in a trance.

01:59:16.000 And maybe they're not writing in the vernacular and language that they're used to.

01:59:21.000 Maybe they have a six or seven year education.

01:59:28.000 And they're writing very sophisticated information.

01:59:32.000 Have you experienced this?

01:59:33.000 No.

01:59:38.000 I'm an explorer, a researcher, investigator, a student, so I'm trying to gather information through other ways.

01:59:53.000 And I've had personal experiences, but nothing of automatic writing.

01:59:58.000 So anyway, again, the literature is huge on this subject of automatic writing.

02:00:06.000 And it's easy to dismiss because it just seems very strange.

02:00:12.000 You're being possessed.

02:00:13.000 You're actually being controlled.

02:00:15.000 But has anybody ever verified any of this automatic writing stuff?

02:00:19.000 In the literature, yeah.

02:00:21.000 You have a lot of information.

02:00:24.000 The writer isn't aware of, shouldn't be, doesn't know.

02:00:29.000 It's outside of their world.

02:00:31.000 So there has been different kinds of cross-correspondence and other kinds of ways of verifying that this didn't come from this person.

02:00:41.000 Something else is going on here.

02:00:44.000 It didn't come all from this person.

02:00:46.000 It's not right.

02:00:47.000 It's completely illogical.

02:00:50.000 So that's one means of adding something to the menu.

02:00:56.000 But when you're trying to measure whether or not consciousness exists outside of life, just because someone's automatically writing, they could be receiving some signal from someone that's still alive.

02:01:09.000 If there is some sort of psychic communication, if there is a possibility of remote viewing and you can transmit information from person to person without words, and this is one of the ultimate goals of Neuralink.

02:01:23.000 Elon Musk actually said You're going to be able to talk without using words.

02:01:27.000 I mean, if human beings, if it's possible to do something along those lines, this could be a live person that's somehow or another projecting these thoughts and someone else is tuning into them in the same way you would tune into a radio signal.

02:01:44.000 Okay, so the way you would test that is probably it's going to be What's the nature of the entire subject matter?

02:01:57.000 How extensive is the subject matter?

02:02:00.000 Because at some point you're adding on so much weight and so many different variables that it stretches the credibility of that theory working.

02:02:14.000 It's kind of like using ball lightning as an excuse for all kinds of things.

02:02:18.000 When it has a very short life, usually travels in one direction, and it's very, very, very rare.

02:02:24.000 So everybody uses Occam's razor as this is what you do.

02:02:29.000 You want to go to what is the simplest solution instead of trying to find swamp gas to describe the craft that just landed.

02:02:37.000 So, you know, I would say, hmm, that's probably testable.

02:02:44.000 You could probably create the methodologies to do some laboratory-type tests on that.

02:02:51.000 But my guess is that would fail as a solution.

02:02:56.000 See, we're talking right now in these weird terms, because I don't know if that stuff's real.

02:03:03.000 I could describe what I think would be wrong with these scenarios, but I don't know if any of this remote writing or automatic writing has been verified.

02:03:15.000 You do.

02:03:16.000 Through the literature.

02:03:17.000 Yeah, but what does that mean, though?

02:03:19.000 It's through literature. 1.00

02:03:20.000 People are full of shit. 1.00

02:03:21.000 They write things down that aren't true. 1.00

02:03:22.000 It just means that we haven't set up experiments ourselves to verify it ourselves and actually watching, implementing it under controlled conditions, double-blind conditions.

02:03:34.000 Right.

02:03:34.000 So what else do you have to resort to?

02:03:36.000 It's what's in the literature thoroughly digest and pros and cons and everything from a lot of sources and people who have engaged in this And maybe they have film.

02:03:47.000 Maybe they actually have film of the writing.

02:03:49.000 And you compare the handwriting, maybe it's different handwriting altogether.

02:03:53.000 Maybe it's in a different language completely.

02:03:55.000 In fact, there are stories, a lot of accounts of exactly that.

02:03:59.000 But this subject of consciousness and whether or not consciousness exists beyond life, this is something that's important to you.

02:04:04.000 So I'd assume that you've looked into it further than just this idea of automatic writing being the only piece of evidence.

02:04:10.000 Actually, that area is the least I've looked into.

02:04:14.000 What's the area the most you've looked into?

02:04:18.000 Well now, first of all, I have kind of recaptured this survival of consciousness inquiry that I was into in the 1980s and I have now formed an institute called BICS that started in June of last year.

02:04:36.000 What does BICS stand for?

02:04:38.000 Bigelow Institution for Survival of Consciousness and For Conscious Survival.

02:04:50.000 Bigelow Institute for Conscious Survival of Consciousness.

02:04:57.000 This organization is very new, and so we're in a method of trying to stimulate research and investigate and catch up on the literature.

02:05:15.000 And we have a unique situation where we have people around us That have ongoing things happening.

02:05:29.000 Ongoing things?

02:05:30.000 Yeah.

02:05:31.000 What does that mean?

02:05:33.000 Different kinds of events that are being reported by family, staff, friends.

02:05:42.000 Like?

02:05:44.000 Apparitions.

02:05:46.000 Ghosts.

02:05:48.000 Yeah.

02:05:48.000 You believe in ghosts?

02:05:50.000 I have...

02:05:52.000 It's fun.

02:05:52.000 My experience is...

02:05:54.000 It's fun to believe in ghosts.

02:05:55.000 Well, there's a difference in terms of...

02:06:01.000 What causes you to believe in something the most?

02:06:03.000 Personal experiences?

02:06:05.000 Probably.

02:06:06.000 So my personal experiences are not having ever seen an apparition.

02:06:10.000 My wife did.

02:06:12.000 I have had poltergeist, a very demonstrative poltergeist event.

02:06:18.000 What was that?

02:06:18.000 Decades ago.

02:06:19.000 What happened?

02:06:23.000 Probably, I don't know, 25 years ago.

02:06:29.000 Or more.

02:06:30.000 11 o'clock at night.

02:06:33.000 My wife and I are laying in bed.

02:06:36.000 Halloween Eve.

02:06:38.000 This is appropriate.

02:06:39.000 Halloween Eve.

02:06:42.000 Okay.

02:06:45.000 Hardwood floors downstairs in the entrance hall.

02:06:49.000 On which tables are all set up with lots and lots of candies, bags.

02:06:54.000 Because bags are being given out.

02:06:57.000 Large, very large candy bars and bags and bags of everything piled up.

02:07:02.000 Hundreds of kids having to be taken care of.

02:07:05.000 Okay.

02:07:05.000 Halloween, big deal.

02:07:06.000 Big deal.

02:07:07.000 Ghosts in the trees.

02:07:08.000 And this is a family thing that was a big deal every year.

02:07:11.000 Decorations.

02:07:12.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

02:07:12.000 The whole nine yards.

02:07:13.000 The full Monty.

02:07:14.000 Got it.

02:07:14.000 All right.

02:07:16.000 So we're laying there.

02:07:21.000 And there's this crash, bang, boom, crash, crash, crash, like a thousand malt balls just dropped to the hardwood floor.

02:07:30.000 Made all this noise.

02:07:31.000 The sound, I estimated, seemed to last forever, probably about three and a half, four seconds, which is a long time for noise to continue.

02:07:41.000 And I said, oh geez, stay here.

02:07:46.000 I'll go take care of it.

02:07:48.000 Whatever.

02:07:49.000 I'll go take care of it.

02:07:51.000 The mess.

02:07:52.000 So I go downstairs.

02:07:55.000 Nothing's wrong.

02:07:58.000 Nothing's wrong.

02:08:00.000 She doesn't believe me.

02:08:02.000 She comes downstairs and she says, Oh my God. 0.94

02:08:06.000 I said, Yeah.

02:08:08.000 I don't have to do anything.

02:08:09.000 Everything's perfect.

02:08:10.000 I didn't touch it.

02:08:12.000 It's just like we set it up.

02:08:17.000 So, that was a really interesting event.

02:08:19.000 And poltergeist, a lot of times...

02:08:21.000 So it's just a sound that you heard.

02:08:23.000 Yeah, just a sound.

02:08:24.000 A sound like something crashed.

02:08:26.000 Like everything on all those tables piled all up, had all crashed to the floor and bags broken open.

02:08:31.000 Right.

02:08:31.000 But nothing did.

02:08:33.000 Nothing.

02:08:33.000 You had children at the time?

02:08:35.000 I had teenagers and they were gone.

02:08:38.000 They were out of the house.

02:08:39.000 They were gone. 1.00

02:08:40.000 You sure they weren't fucking with you? 1.00

02:08:42.000 The teenagers? 1.00

02:08:43.000 No.

02:08:43.000 But what would they have to do?

02:08:45.000 Have a recording?

02:08:46.000 Make a loud noise?

02:08:46.000 Yeah, they would have to crash all this and record it, wouldn't they?

02:08:49.000 Isn't that more likely than a ghost?

02:08:50.000 And spend hundreds of dollars doing this.

02:08:52.000 Well, that's how much we always spent.

02:08:54.000 On recordings?

02:08:55.000 No, on the candy.

02:08:58.000 I mean...

02:08:59.000 I mean, just sounds.

02:09:00.000 It sounded like mothballs, you said, right?

02:09:02.000 Or like malt balls hitting the floor, right?

02:09:06.000 Is that what you said?

02:09:06.000 Jawbreakers, whatever.

02:09:08.000 Candies, hard things.

02:09:10.000 Whatever.

02:09:11.000 But that was it?

02:09:12.000 Just a sound?

02:09:14.000 That's a lot.

02:09:15.000 But it's not necessarily a ghost.

02:09:17.000 When nothing has happened, well, no, we're talking about poltergeists.

02:09:21.000 Poltergeists don't have to be anything manifested as a ghost.

02:09:25.000 It can be an audible sound.

02:09:27.000 But was there anything more to the experience than just a loud sound that turned out to be nothing?

02:09:34.000 No, that was pretty good.

02:09:37.000 That's not enough.

02:09:37.000 For a starter, that's pretty good.

02:09:39.000 You know, I was probably like, okay, what's going to happen tomorrow night?

02:09:44.000 Did something happen tomorrow night?

02:09:46.000 No.

02:09:46.000 That was it?

02:09:47.000 Just one loud noise and that's it?

02:09:48.000 To me it was a big deal.

02:09:49.000 You know, it was like, wow.

02:09:51.000 Imagine if that was that whole movie, Poltergeist, just a loud noise.

02:09:54.000 Well, wouldn't that be that entertaining?

02:09:56.000 Wouldn't be a good movie.

02:09:56.000 No, you have to have chandelier swinging and crashing and all that kind of stuff.

02:10:00.000 That's what I was expecting.

02:10:01.000 I wasn't expecting just like candy hit the floor, but no candy actually hit the floor.

02:10:04.000 Well, I never said that my life was that exciting.

02:10:06.000 You know, it hasn't been that great.

02:10:09.000 But I want to get to this idea that you're trying to pursue of measuring consciousness or trying to figure out whether or not consciousness survives death.

02:10:17.000 Right.

02:10:17.000 What do you want to do and how do you want to do it?

02:10:21.000 You can't just do it through remote writing or automatic writing or psychic mediums.

02:10:26.000 There's got to be a way to figure this out.

02:10:30.000 Yeah, so we started the Institute and I said, okay, let's stir the pot up.

02:10:41.000 And, in fact, we thought we would join an organization and they didn't want us.

02:10:49.000 So we got rejected.

02:10:51.000 So we got rejected and then crawled off and conjured up a contest.

02:10:57.000 So the contest says you have to have some credentials to enter this contest.

02:11:03.000 What kind of credentials do you have to have as a psychic?

02:11:06.000 No, no, no, no.

02:11:07.000 You have to have background in the topic of And you could be a priest, a minister, a rabbi.

02:11:18.000 You have to have background in the topic of studying and understanding, potentially, does the other side even exist?

02:11:27.000 We're not asking you to tell us what it's all about.

02:11:29.000 Okay.

02:11:30.000 Just does it friggin' exist, right?

02:11:33.000 So, you might be a producer or director of a television show for years, and you've got more stuff on film than you can imagine of different kinds of weird things happening that you have no explanation for any of that, and you've made a study of this for a long time.

02:11:49.000 You could be a good candidate.

02:11:52.000 You could be a detective.

02:11:54.000 And maybe you're solving murder cases by using psychic mediums.

02:11:58.000 So you'd have to have something you bring to the table.

02:12:00.000 So you have to have something you bring to the table.

02:12:02.000 And you can't send us an essay.

02:12:04.000 You're going to write an essay.

02:12:06.000 To present your case.

02:12:07.000 And it can be more than 25,000 words, which is about 50 pages.

02:12:11.000 So you're just essentially going to allow people to come up with some convincing argument and bring it to you.

02:12:17.000 So you have a contest to do this?

02:12:18.000 Is that what it is?

02:12:19.000 Yeah, that's what it is.

02:12:20.000 So we say, okay...

02:12:23.000 There's a deadline to get all your applications in.

02:12:26.000 And then you have many months.

02:12:28.000 The deadline is actually the end of this month, the 28th of February.

02:12:33.000 And then you have...

02:12:33.000 Jamie's got it up here.

02:12:35.000 BICS Essay Competition, Best Evidence for Afterlife.

02:12:40.000 Essays will be judged by five renowned experts.

02:12:43.000 That's up to six now.

02:12:44.000 We have another judge, which is a good thing because...

02:12:49.000 The winning essay gets a half a milli.

02:12:52.000 Is that too much?

02:12:53.000 No, it's perfect.

02:12:54.000 It's good.

02:12:55.000 Second place gets 300, third place gets 150 grand.

02:12:59.000 So if you have a semi-shitty near-death experience story, you get 150. It's an interesting way to do it, but I would hope there would be some better way to measure it.

02:13:15.000 You know the expression extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

02:13:20.000 Yeah, true.

02:13:22.000 But you've got to remember that, well, first of all, we're causing conversation and thought about the subject.

02:13:33.000 Right.

02:13:34.000 And we're stirring the pot.

02:13:36.000 And this kind of contest has never been done before.

02:13:40.000 What if they're all terrible?

02:13:42.000 Do you still give first place to someone who's terrible?

02:13:44.000 Worse than that, what if there were only three applicants?

02:13:47.000 Right.

02:13:48.000 Even worse.

02:13:48.000 First, second, third price.

02:13:49.000 They all suck. 1.00

02:13:50.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:13:50.000 Well, the good news is, we have some really good people. 1.00

02:13:54.000 Jamie's thinking about writing one right now.

02:13:56.000 We have some...

02:14:00.000 Half a million bucks.

02:14:01.000 We have some very good people who are entering this contest.

02:14:05.000 Their credentials are terrific.

02:14:07.000 They're very good.

02:14:08.000 They're authors of many books.

02:14:11.000 There's extensive background of these kinds of folks.

02:14:16.000 So we're excited about that.

02:14:20.000 The response has been favorable.

02:14:24.000 Well, there's a lot of money on the table.

02:14:25.000 Well, they have until August the 1st to do this.

02:14:27.000 Oh, okay.

02:14:28.000 And then the judges...

02:14:29.000 So here we are.

02:14:30.000 What is it?

02:14:30.000 The 24th?

02:14:32.000 What is it?

02:14:33.000 24th of February.

02:14:34.000 Yeah, sure.

02:14:34.000 All right.

02:14:35.000 Okay.

02:14:36.000 So then the judges start.

02:14:38.000 And we just added a physicist to this group.

02:14:42.000 He's the sixth one.

02:14:44.000 And so he understands judging things and being a critical thinker.

02:14:51.000 And so he really rounds out the group very well.

02:14:55.000 And so the judges start August 1st, August, September, October, and then are supposed to be finished by November 1st and have made decisions.

02:15:04.000 So then we announce the winners.

02:15:07.000 And we want to post all the three winners.

02:15:10.000 And I suspect the judges are going to have a problem.

02:15:14.000 It's going to be damn hard to pick three out of the group because this has generated a lot of interest and we have some really good folks into this.

02:15:27.000 So we are going to get permissions as an applicant.

02:15:30.000 They have to give us permission We don't own anything.

02:15:33.000 We just want to put it on our website so people can read all the essays.

02:15:37.000 So maybe we have 20, 25 essays, not just the three winners.

02:15:40.000 So it's going to give people a chance to really read a lot of different kinds of arguments.

02:15:46.000 By what metrics are you going to accept evidence of the afterlife?

02:15:50.000 Good question.

02:15:52.000 Okay.

02:15:53.000 So we patterned this after the legal system of the Western world.

02:16:00.000 And the Western world says two things.

02:16:03.000 That you can convict, providing you have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

02:16:11.000 It doesn't say 100%.

02:16:12.000 It says beyond a reasonable doubt.

02:16:15.000 Number two, witnesses really matter.

02:16:19.000 The veracity and the quality of the witnesses matter.

02:16:23.000 And how many did you have?

02:16:26.000 What is it that is being claimed here?

02:16:30.000 And what is the cross-correlation collaboration in whatever it is that you're trying to relate here?

02:16:38.000 So when you're talking about convicting someone for a crime, here's the problem with that analogy.

02:16:43.000 Crimes are real.

02:16:45.000 Like, if you're talking about convicting someone for a murder, the murder's real.

02:16:48.000 The person's dead.

02:16:48.000 And you want to catch someone.

02:16:50.000 So you have eyewitness encounters, you have evidence, you have all these things, and you can convict someone on that evidence.

02:16:58.000 There's no evidence that ghosts are real.

02:17:01.000 There's no evidence that the afterlife is real.

02:17:03.000 So you're guessing.

02:17:04.000 Wrong.

02:17:05.000 How's it wrong?

02:17:06.000 Wrong.

02:17:06.000 But murders are real, right?

02:17:07.000 You would say murders are way more real than the afterlife?

02:17:09.000 What you said is wrong in this context.

02:17:12.000 In what way?

02:17:13.000 An applicant.

02:17:15.000 An applicant.

02:17:15.000 Who's a detective?

02:17:17.000 Who's been using?

02:17:18.000 Dick Tracy?

02:17:19.000 Psychic?

02:17:20.000 No.

02:17:20.000 What?

02:17:21.000 In fact, I got my watch right here.

02:17:23.000 I'll talk.

02:17:24.000 You talked to that watch.

02:17:25.000 That turned out to be real, right?

02:17:26.000 Remember when we were kids?

02:17:27.000 It is.

02:17:28.000 Dick Tracy used to talk to his watch.

02:17:29.000 We'd be like, that's crazy.

02:17:30.000 The time didn't fast forward.

02:17:32.000 Two hours.

02:17:33.000 I come from the Pacific time.

02:17:35.000 Oh, it didn't?

02:17:36.000 No.

02:17:37.000 That's weird.

02:17:37.000 No.

02:17:38.000 And so I haven't been using my cell phone, and I forgot to bring my charger.

02:17:42.000 What are you on?

02:17:42.000 Some shitty service?

02:17:43.000 Mine changes everywhere I go. 0.93

02:17:45.000 I don't know.

02:17:45.000 Isn't yours?

02:17:46.000 I'm going to talk to my granddaughter, because she gave it to me as a gift.

02:17:49.000 But you understand what I'm saying, though?

02:17:50.000 Because we actually talked about this.

02:17:52.000 Well, wait a minute, though.

02:17:52.000 This guy's a detective solving murder cases using mediums.

02:17:58.000 Right.

02:17:59.000 Isn't this like, wow?

02:18:01.000 Yeah, but when they solve murder cases using mediums, if that has ever been real, and I've talked to some detectives that say that's all horseshit, because I did have a long discussion with someone who is, he's an investigative detective and he solves crimes,

02:18:16.000 and he's like, there's no evidence that any psychics have ever given you any real information.

02:18:21.000 Now, he hasn't investigated the subject.

02:18:22.000 He has had probably one experience, maybe two, in this.

02:18:26.000 This is his personal opinion on cases that he's been involved in, and maybe he's wrong.

02:18:31.000 But this is just what he said.

02:18:33.000 He said, people are desperate.

02:18:35.000 They hire psychics.

02:18:38.000 But my point is, murder is real.

02:18:41.000 The difference is, you're convicting someone for something that absolutely happened.

02:18:44.000 When you're talking about trying to figure out whether or not there's an afterlife based on the kind of evidence that would be used to convict someone of a murder, that doesn't necessarily work because we know for a fact that murder is real.

02:18:58.000 We know for a fact that human beings are real and that if you kill them, you're a murderer.

02:19:02.000 This is all fact.

02:19:05.000 We don't know whether or not there's an afterlife.

02:19:08.000 So to use the same...

02:19:11.000 Obligation or the same preponderance of evidence that would convict someone of a crime for something that you don't even know is real.

02:19:18.000 They don't necessarily...

02:19:20.000 They're not comparable.

02:19:23.000 No, I wouldn't say...

02:19:25.000 Don't...

02:19:28.000 Put the seriousness of an event in terms of the harm it caused as being more legitimate than an event that actually produces information that you should have no way of acquiring.

02:19:43.000 Well, let's not say that then.

02:19:44.000 Let's talk about it in terms of something different than a murder.

02:19:47.000 Let's talk about it in terms of vandalism.

02:19:49.000 Just someone spray painting some building somewhere, right?

02:19:53.000 Let's talk about that.

02:19:54.000 No one gets hurt.

02:19:55.000 Just physical stuff.

02:19:57.000 Okay, so let's take that example.

02:19:58.000 And suppose you went to a psychic medium.

02:20:01.000 And she says, what I'm hearing is that your house is going to get spray painted with a message on the backside of your house.

02:20:08.000 I'd go to that lady. 1.00

02:20:09.000 She probably fucking did it. 1.00

02:20:11.000 She knew it was coming. 1.00

02:20:12.000 You're impossible.

02:20:12.000 That's how she knew it was coming.

02:20:13.000 You're impossible.

02:20:13.000 No, I'm possible.

02:20:15.000 I'm very possible.

02:20:16.000 But this is all nonsense.

02:20:18.000 Well, wait a minute.

02:20:19.000 No, wait a minute.

02:20:19.000 So there is a predictability in events, however.

02:20:23.000 Only if someone actually can prove that they've done that and no one's ever done that.

02:20:26.000 No one's ever said someone's going to spray paint your building and it wasn't them that did it.

02:20:30.000 How do you know?

02:20:31.000 How do you know?

02:20:32.000 Prove it.

02:20:33.000 Show it to me.

02:20:34.000 Do you see what I'm saying?

02:20:35.000 People have definitely spray painted people's buildings.

02:20:37.000 I do.

02:20:37.000 No one has definitely showed you that there's real evidence that consciousness survives death and you can talk to someone from beyond the grave.

02:20:46.000 There have been a mountain of readings for sitters where the information comes that says something is going to happen.

02:20:57.000 And it happens.

02:20:58.000 It's prognostication that's a day or two or a week away and it happens.

02:21:02.000 Maybe.

02:21:03.000 Maybe.

02:21:04.000 No, no, it is.

02:21:05.000 You just have to read them.

02:21:05.000 But you've got to show me specifics if we're going to have this conversation.

02:21:08.000 You see what I'm saying?

02:21:09.000 Like, for you to be so convinced, you should have things that you could pull out of the top of your head right now and tell me specifically that this event was predicted by this person and this is how it happened and there was no way they could have known about it otherwise.

02:21:21.000 Otherwise, you shouldn't be convinced.

02:21:23.000 The stories are in the tens of thousands.

02:21:24.000 But that doesn't mean anything. 0.97

02:21:25.000 When they're written down after the fact, that doesn't mean jack shit.

02:21:28.000 No, but there are actual accounts of things. 0.98

02:21:30.000 You have to say, well, the authors are all fraud.

02:21:33.000 Maybe. 0.97

02:21:33.000 The authors are all fraud. 0.97

02:21:34.000 Their sources are fraud.

02:21:35.000 The problem is you want to believe.

02:21:37.000 That's the problem.

02:21:38.000 Maybe it's true.

02:21:39.000 Maybe it's true.

02:21:40.000 I got the solution for you.

02:21:41.000 But here's the thing.

02:21:42.000 Robert, I love you.

02:21:43.000 You don't know.

02:21:45.000 I got the solution.

02:21:46.000 What's the solution?

02:21:46.000 The solution is for you to have a sitting, for Christ's sake.

02:21:49.000 Maybe that is not even good enough.

02:21:51.000 Wait a minute.

02:21:51.000 Earlier it was.

02:21:52.000 No, never.

02:21:53.000 It was never good enough.

02:21:54.000 It was never good enough.

02:21:54.000 It was interesting.

02:21:55.000 Interesting to have a sitting.

02:21:57.000 You could have both chocolate and vanilla ice cream and you wouldn't be happy.

02:22:00.000 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

02:22:01.000 Look, there is no proof ever that someone has been able to accurately perform some sort of psychic demonstration.

02:22:12.000 That's the whole James Randi thing.

02:22:14.000 You need a sitting badly.

02:22:15.000 I don't need a sitting man.

02:22:17.000 Yes, you do.

02:22:17.000 You have a belief in these things that may or may not be founded.

02:22:21.000 But the problem is, you don't have any evidence.

02:22:23.000 You're not saying.

02:22:25.000 You're not saying specific.

02:22:26.000 Like, I can tell you specific things that I know are true.

02:22:29.000 And I'll talk to you about them because I was there or I know about them.

02:22:33.000 I can talk to you about martial arts events.

02:22:35.000 I can talk to you about stand-up comedy events.

02:22:38.000 I know things that absolutely did happen.

02:22:40.000 Right.

02:22:40.000 And therefore, if you argued with me and said, there has never been a UFC fight, I go, well, that's not true, because I could tell you specific dates, I can tell you what happened, what the result was, I can show you a videotape of it.

02:22:51.000 You don't have that same knowledge of these things, but you have the same conviction that I have when I'm talking about things that are hardcore facts, like a mixed martial arts event, Or, you know, whatever.

02:23:03.000 Fill in the blank with whatever the event you want it to be.

02:23:05.000 You have the same sort of conviction that these things are real, but you don't have the same kind of hardcore evidence.

02:23:12.000 Not only do you not have the same kind of hardcore evidence...

02:23:15.000 Well, give me an example.

02:23:16.000 Give me an example.

02:23:18.000 An example is any kind of information coming from the other side that maybe you don't even know about.

02:23:25.000 Okay?

02:23:26.000 So it can't be explained away as telepathy or clairvoyance because you don't even know about it yourself.

02:23:31.000 Give me an example of that.

02:23:32.000 Well, pick anything.

02:23:34.000 That something's going to happen or that something did happen.

02:23:37.000 Give me an example of someone actually doing this.

02:23:39.000 Okay.

02:23:40.000 So that Aunt Martha just died. 1.00

02:23:45.000 Who the fuck is Aunt Martha? 1.00

02:23:46.000 Is this a real person? 1.00

02:23:48.000 Well, you said give me an example.

02:23:49.000 No, no, no.

02:23:49.000 I want an example of a real psychic prediction that turned out to be true that you can tell me.

02:23:56.000 I can fill this table up with examples, with literature.

02:23:59.000 I just want one.

02:24:00.000 You don't have to do that.

02:24:00.000 Just give me one that you know about.

02:24:03.000 Listen, like I'm saying, I have the same conviction in things that I know are real as you have when you're arguing that psychic ability is real.

02:24:13.000 I just want you to tell me one.

02:24:15.000 Okay, my own sitting.

02:24:17.000 Okay, my own sitting.

02:24:18.000 Okay.

02:24:21.000 My father came across in the sitting.

02:24:24.000 And my father was killed in a private plane crash when I was 18. And it wasn't his plane.

02:24:32.000 It was his partner's plane.

02:24:34.000 And so she tells this to me.

02:24:37.000 And I hadn't thought about anything to do with his partner for decades.

02:24:45.000 How long ago was this sitting?

02:24:47.000 How long ago?

02:24:48.000 How long ago did you have this sitting?

02:24:50.000 A few days ago.

02:24:51.000 You're a famous public person, and your history is available.

02:24:56.000 Someone could find this out about you.

02:24:58.000 That's maybe true about the plane crash, but not the first name of the pilot.

02:25:06.000 Not the first name of your father's partner?

02:25:09.000 Why couldn't someone find that out?

02:25:11.000 Yeah.

02:25:11.000 Why couldn't someone find out the pilot?

02:25:13.000 I think because this is over half a century old.

02:25:16.000 I think it's like 60...

02:25:18.000 I'm 76. Right, but there was probably a record...

02:25:22.000 I think that's stretching it.

02:25:24.000 I don't think that's stretching it at all.

02:25:26.000 You were telling me about UFO encounters from 1947. You were telling me about people that have seen things.

02:25:32.000 You were telling me about events that happened that are in the historical record.

02:25:36.000 Okay.

02:25:36.000 So let's shift to something else that could not have been written down.

02:25:41.000 Okay.

02:25:43.000 So...

02:25:46.000 In my own setting.

02:25:47.000 Okay.

02:25:48.000 So, my wife passed February 19th, last year, and she was in and out of hospitals a lot for a long time.

02:25:58.000 I was kind of the nurse at home for a couple years.

02:26:02.000 And...

02:26:03.000 So toward the end, she was in the hospital about three days before.

02:26:10.000 She wanted to pass at home.

02:26:11.000 So the challenge was how to get her out of an area in the hospital that was basically a waiting area for people to go to die.

02:26:21.000 It was an area that that's where people were that weren't expected to leave.

02:26:27.000 Okay, alive.

02:26:28.000 And so there was a day there where my son and my granddaughter and I were playing a lot of loud music.

02:26:37.000 In the room for my wife.

02:26:41.000 And the medium said to me, and I'm recording this, and the medium said, thank you, your wife wants to thank you for all the music that was played for her before she passed,

02:26:58.000 all the music.

02:26:59.000 And I said, well, I don't know about any music.

02:27:02.000 I don't remember anything.

02:27:05.000 Why did you say that?

02:27:06.000 Because I didn't.

02:27:07.000 You didn't remember playing loud music?

02:27:09.000 No, I didn't remember.

02:27:09.000 But you remember it now.

02:27:11.000 What is she talking about?

02:27:12.000 How do you remember it now?

02:27:13.000 Because of my granddaughter.

02:27:14.000 Because I had recorded it, and we listened to the recording together after I had done the sitting, and my granddaughter says to me, Pop, don't you remember?

02:27:23.000 Oh, da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

02:27:25.000 I said, oh, God, that's right.

02:27:28.000 Yeah.

02:27:29.000 Well, yeah, I forgot.

02:27:30.000 I completely forgot it.

02:27:32.000 Well, that's certainly interesting and unusual.

02:27:35.000 So what I would, I don't know if she would do it, but I think she probably would be very interested since it's you, and because you are a big figure, that And you're easy to learn about.

02:27:51.000 You'd go into this assuming, which she's a very, very honest person.

02:27:54.000 But you would have to go into this assuming that everything about you is so public, you can find out a lot of things.

02:28:02.000 Well, that's the problem that I always have with psychics.

02:28:04.000 Don't tell me something that I already know.

02:28:06.000 That's the challenge for her, is to tell you something that nobody else could possibly know.

02:28:13.000 But even that, well, nobody else could possibly know is a stretch, right?

02:28:18.000 But tell me something that I don't know.

02:28:22.000 Whenever I've had friends that have gone and had psychic readings, I always say, well, how did they structure the questions?

02:28:27.000 How did this go?

02:28:29.000 What did they say?

02:28:30.000 Were they fishing around?

02:28:31.000 Did they accurately get to it or did they give you probing questions first?

02:28:35.000 It's almost always probing questions.

02:28:36.000 And they told me about my grandfather.

02:28:38.000 How could they know?

02:28:39.000 I go, you know!

02:28:40.000 You know about your grandfather. 1.00

02:28:41.000 Why don't they tell you some shit you don't know? 0.99

02:28:43.000 Everybody tells you things you already know. 1.00

02:28:45.000 Tell me something I don't know.

02:28:46.000 So that'll be the challenge for her, wouldn't it?

02:28:49.000 Is to be able to tell you, to tell Joe Rogan, things that essentially only Joe knows.

02:28:57.000 No, don't tell me things I know.

02:28:59.000 Okay.

02:28:59.000 Tell me things I don't know.

02:29:00.000 Tell me reality that I'm not aware of that has nothing to do with me.

02:29:04.000 Or that may happen soon.

02:29:05.000 Well, something along those lines.

02:29:07.000 Yeah, something where, you know, don't say you're going to spray paint my house and then go do it.

02:29:10.000 But it's supposed to be a sitting for Joe.

02:29:11.000 Yes.

02:29:12.000 It's supposed to be for you.

02:29:12.000 I understand.

02:29:14.000 It's just the problem is they tell you things you already know.

02:29:16.000 And I'm like, this is just, I guess there's something to that, right?

02:29:20.000 There's some sort of clairvoyance to that if it's real.

02:29:22.000 You're saying, well, then that's only relevant because they're reading my mind.

02:29:27.000 Which is a holy cow.

02:29:29.000 That's not what I'm saying.

02:29:29.000 That's not what I'm saying at all.

02:29:30.000 I'm saying they're telling you, they're giving you these questions in a way like, I have a friend who does this. 0.89

02:29:36.000 He's a mentalist. 1.00

02:29:37.000 He does it out of Las Vegas and he tells me it's all bullshit. 1.00

02:29:40.000 He tells me how he does it. 0.99

02:29:42.000 He tells me how he structures these questions and probes people and gets people to give up information.

02:29:47.000 Then he makes these educated guesses and then they start saying, oh my god, I can't believe you know that.

02:29:51.000 You are not supposed to say anything more than yes or no.

02:29:54.000 You don't talk.

02:29:56.000 During the sitting.

02:29:56.000 You're supposed to say yes or no.

02:29:58.000 That's it.

02:29:59.000 Or say nothing.

02:30:00.000 That's it.

02:30:01.000 You're not supposed to talk.

02:30:02.000 Okay, well listen, I haven't experienced this before.

02:30:05.000 I try to keep an open mind.

02:30:06.000 If someone actually can do this, that's pretty spectacular.

02:30:10.000 But to my understanding, and I've spent a lot of time reading about these things and reading about skeptics and the James Randi challenge and all these different people that have tried to attempt to demonstrate psychic ability that no one has ever successfully done that.

02:30:26.000 Okay, let's go back earlier.

02:30:29.000 Am I wrong, Jamie?

02:30:30.000 Well, wait a second.

02:30:31.000 The James Randi challenge. 0.91

02:30:32.000 Oh, he was a fraud.

02:30:34.000 Forget about it. 0.92

02:30:34.000 James Randi was a fraud? 0.92

02:30:35.000 Yeah, he was.

02:30:35.000 He wouldn't have ever paid out anything if somebody had been successful.

02:30:39.000 People all know that.

02:30:40.000 No, he would not have paid it out.

02:30:42.000 Because he disputed, arbitrarily disputed, everything that would have been attempted.

02:30:47.000 And finally people quit.

02:30:49.000 Because he was not going to be fair in his judgment.

02:30:51.000 What is fair, though, in terms of psychic ability?

02:30:54.000 If you could prove psychic ability beyond a shadow of a doubt.

02:30:57.000 But what was his rules?

02:31:01.000 What did he want you to establish?

02:31:03.000 I don't care about James Randi.

02:31:04.000 I care about Joe Rogan and my premise is this.

02:31:07.000 I wish we never talked about this.

02:31:09.000 We just stuck with aliens.

02:31:10.000 Okay, but wait a second.

02:31:11.000 Wait a second.

02:31:12.000 Earlier, correct me if I'm wrong, You actually said, yes, there could be legitimate mediums.

02:31:20.000 Yeah, it's possible.

02:31:21.000 And there can be better ones and really terrific ones and different capabilities.

02:31:26.000 Yeah, maybe.

02:31:27.000 My problem is your conviction, your belief in this is so strong.

02:31:32.000 Well, no, but what happened to the Joe of just a little while ago that says, yeah, there can be legitimate mediums, as opposed to saying, they're all fraud because I know a magician.

02:31:42.000 No, that show's open-minded.

02:31:44.000 I'm willing to believe that it's possible.

02:31:46.000 But I don't understand why you're so convinced by just one story about music in a room.

02:31:53.000 Maybe that's what happened.

02:31:55.000 Maybe this lady tuned in to the Akashic Records and figured out that there's some music in the room when your wife is dying. 1.00

02:32:03.000 I would argue, start with, and time is precious...

02:32:07.000 For a busy guy like yourself, but you have to start with reading good literature, reading good books.

02:32:14.000 Okay, tell me a good book on psychics.

02:32:16.000 I'll have to send you a list.

02:32:18.000 Okay.

02:32:18.000 I'll send you a list of things to read, and I'll do that.

02:32:24.000 You've got to give me how I do this.

02:32:25.000 Okay, we'll talk afterwards.

02:32:26.000 But you understand that most skeptics... 1.00

02:32:30.000 Believe that this is all bullshit, right? 1.00

02:32:33.000 Well, they would or they wouldn't be skeptics. 1.00

02:32:35.000 But I mean, that's what they do.

02:32:37.000 They study things that are extraordinary.

02:32:39.000 Okay.

02:32:39.000 There's open-minded skeptics, too.

02:32:41.000 You can be skeptical, but still be open-minded, right?

02:32:45.000 Right.

02:32:45.000 Right?

02:32:46.000 And I don't immediately buy off on anything I'm told just because I hear something.

02:32:51.000 I like to get to a point where Where I stay open-minded, and then I may start to shift into saying there's more and more maybe to this.

02:33:02.000 Let me investigate more.

02:33:04.000 I'm not going to let go until I investigate more.

02:33:07.000 So just because I had one sitting here with this particular person, I've had others years ago.

02:33:13.000 But you seem particularly convinced.

02:33:15.000 Well, this particular person was very good.

02:33:18.000 It was three and a half hours long.

02:33:21.000 Okay, so was there another example besides just the music?

02:33:26.000 Yeah, there were a number of other examples.

02:33:28.000 I'd have to stop and regurgitate everything.

02:33:35.000 Okay.

02:33:36.000 It was enough to convince you.

02:33:38.000 I'm all pumped up for questions about space, cosmology, ETs, survival of consciousness, and what kind of car is the most fun to drive.

02:33:48.000 Okay.

02:33:49.000 What kind of car is the most fun to drive?

02:33:51.000 The Lamberdoodle.

02:33:51.000 The Lamberdoodle?

02:33:52.000 What is that?

02:33:53.000 It's a name I gave a car I just bought.

02:33:56.000 What is it?

02:33:58.000 It's an orange Lamborghini called a Ursa?

02:34:06.000 Ursis.

02:34:07.000 Yeah, the truck, the SUV. Yeah, it's an SUV. 640 horsepower, four-wheel drive, Eight speeds forward.

02:34:16.000 It's the most fun car I've ever had in my life.

02:34:18.000 It's a cool car.

02:34:19.000 My friend Russell Peters has that exact same car.

02:34:21.000 Who does?

02:34:21.000 Russell Peters.

02:34:22.000 Hilarious stand-up comedian from Toronto, Canada.

02:34:25.000 It's an exciting car.

02:34:26.000 Yeah, he loves it.

02:34:27.000 He's got the same color, too.

02:34:29.000 In fact, I bought two, and one's going to be given away at the Larry Ruvo Cleveland Clinic Gala in October in Las Vegas.

02:34:41.000 It's going to be auctioned off.

02:34:44.000 Oh, really?

02:34:44.000 And the price of that car is $286,000.

02:34:47.000 I think it's more than that.

02:34:48.000 Altidore, that's taxing everything, and he's going to auction that car off come October.

02:34:53.000 I think they're lining.

02:34:54.000 I think it's more than that.

02:34:55.000 You should be...

02:34:55.000 I think that car's like $300 and something, isn't it?

02:34:58.000 That's an expensive car.

02:35:01.000 It says MSRP base is $200,000.

02:35:04.000 Oh, the base.

02:35:05.000 $280,000 for the base.

02:35:06.000 Yeah, Russell's was like super loaded up.

02:35:09.000 You ought to be at the gala.

02:35:11.000 To bid?

02:35:12.000 No.

02:35:12.000 Why not?

02:35:13.000 I got things to do.

02:35:14.000 Why not?

02:35:14.000 I'm busy.

02:35:15.000 I'm going to be talking to a psychic.

02:35:16.000 It's a lot of fun.

02:35:17.000 Larry Rubio puts on a hell of a show every year for these galas, and they're fantastic.

02:35:22.000 I'm sure.

02:35:23.000 Sounds like a good time.

02:35:24.000 So that's the most fun car to drive?

02:35:26.000 For me, it has been.

02:35:27.000 What other cars have you driven that are like contenders?

02:35:31.000 I have a Corvette my wife bought me when I was turning 70, and I can't control it.

02:35:39.000 Which one?

02:35:40.000 Is it a ZR1 or something?

02:35:41.000 I don't know.

02:35:41.000 It's a Stingray.

02:35:44.000 It's too much car.

02:35:46.000 It's goosey on the rear end.

02:35:48.000 It's too squirrel.

02:35:50.000 Yeah, I get it.

02:35:51.000 And I can't predict where it's going to go.

02:35:54.000 Well, you just need to learn how to handle it.

02:35:56.000 The new Corvettes are better for that.

02:35:58.000 They're mid-engine now.

02:35:59.000 I can't see out of them.

02:36:00.000 The new ones?

02:36:01.000 The rear window.

02:36:02.000 There's no rear window.

02:36:02.000 It's like four inches high.

02:36:04.000 Yeah, it is a little smaller.

02:36:05.000 And an 18-wheeler is up behind you.

02:36:07.000 What do you do?

02:36:08.000 Hit the gas.

02:36:09.000 Yeah.

02:36:09.000 Don't let them be behind you.

02:36:10.000 They make me too nervous.

02:36:11.000 I understand.

02:36:12.000 Yeah, the new ones are pretty sweet, though.

02:36:14.000 And it's much better traction with the mid-engine design.

02:36:17.000 Yeah.

02:36:18.000 Yeah.

02:36:20.000 Let's get back to aliens.

02:36:21.000 We've been talking for a long time, but I really want to talk to you about this.

02:36:25.000 What evidence do you think is the best evidence in terms of what physical evidence?

02:36:34.000 Is it just video?

02:36:36.000 Is it just photographs?

02:36:38.000 Or do you think there's physical evidence that either our government or some other government has somewhere that could show beyond a shadow of a doubt?

02:36:49.000 Because I know Jacques Vallée who was on the podcast before discussed that we were talking about specific metals that have been examined that these alloys that if they had been produced In mass, it would be billions and billions of dollars for these alloys.

02:37:08.000 And that this was, although not evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, seemed to indicate that because of the examination of these alloys, that this is not something that's mass produced in this country right now, or in any country right now.

02:37:23.000 That this is something that if it was done, it would cost an insane amount of money to create, but yet here it is.

02:37:30.000 Right.

02:37:31.000 Yeah, so people have pieces of things that are like that, that have been, I assume they've gone through electron microscope for a look-see, but they are very unique in how thin they are,

02:37:50.000 how many layers of material they have, and the view The opinions are that we can't make them.

02:38:05.000 And that these things have been recovered from crash sites?

02:38:09.000 Apparently.

02:38:10.000 Apparently.

02:38:10.000 But that is part of the problem, right?

02:38:12.000 Is that there's so little, real, concrete information.

02:38:18.000 Like, there's no consortium of scientists that's...

02:38:22.000 A line together that's saying, this is 100% from another planet.

02:38:26.000 We've all examined this.

02:38:28.000 We've got together with the people at Stanford, and we've done these tests, and this is what we know, and here's the press conference, right?

02:38:35.000 But that's never happened yet.

02:38:37.000 Well, so far there have been investigations on these materials, and they're anomalous.

02:38:45.000 Yeah.

02:38:47.000 Do you think that's the...

02:38:48.000 They could be...

02:38:52.000 Something that's part of the kitchen of the UFO. Some bowl that they ate out of.

02:39:05.000 Who knows?

02:39:07.000 How can you tell about a craft just because of one little piece?

02:39:10.000 Right.

02:39:12.000 Other than Bob Lazar's experiences, which he has, of course, the most spectacular experience.

02:39:18.000 I actually haven't been there at S4. You know, I wish there was a way we could convince whoever is in charge of that to allow people to film this, to allow people to examine this,

02:39:33.000 to bring in the scientific community, if it is a real thing.

02:39:36.000 But the other thing about the Lazar story was that Element 115. What are your thoughts on that?

02:39:46.000 This was the idea that there was some super spectacular element that was a new version of propulsion.

02:39:54.000 So instead of shooting something out of the back end, it was literally bending gravity.

02:40:00.000 Yeah.

02:40:01.000 I don't know enough about it to really comment.

02:40:04.000 I mean, I'm not saying about anything to do with...

02:40:09.000 Disparagingly with Bob Lazar at all.

02:40:10.000 I'm just talking about the element 115. I have no understanding of its properties and what it can do or not.

02:40:22.000 I don't have any information like I do on these other subjects, survival of consciousness.

02:40:28.000 I don't have any information about element 115. Did you talk to Bob about it?

02:40:33.000 Oh, no.

02:40:38.000 No, the conversations about it were somebody had taken his and he was I'm kind of regretful that he had let go of it in some way and he wanted to get it back.

02:40:54.000 And this was when he was at S4? Yeah.

02:40:58.000 But I don't remember much about conversations about how much, what all of its properties were and that kind of thing.

02:41:08.000 Did you bounce a ping-pong ball and it didn't come back to you straight?

02:41:13.000 It took off in a different direction or something?

02:41:15.000 Or a candle flame?

02:41:16.000 I don't know about those things.

02:41:19.000 I don't know.

02:41:21.000 But I think that...

02:41:25.000 Oh, I had something else I was going to say and I forget now on that 115. Oh, well.

02:41:32.000 I forget what I was going to say.

02:41:34.000 His diagrams of the UFO. Oh, I know what it was.

02:41:40.000 Okay, getting back to these kinds of treasure.

02:41:45.000 You were talking earlier that really what ought to happen is there ought to be a major program Where you're gathering all the best scientists to analyze the hell out of all these materials that have been retrieved.

02:42:02.000 Yeah.

02:42:04.000 But the problem is, you know, a lot of this stuff purportedly is in corporate hands.

02:42:14.000 Corporate hands?

02:42:15.000 And some in government hands.

02:42:17.000 Okay?

02:42:18.000 And it's come to be kind of corporate treasure.

02:42:24.000 And national treasure at the same time, because there's a relationship between a company and the government that has this kind of treasure.

02:42:38.000 It's a national kind of treasure.

02:42:40.000 No pun intended there, but I mean, in a sense, it's a national treasure, right?

02:42:44.000 And so it's also A phenomenal treasure that isn't understood.

02:42:52.000 And so the problem is, it may be the most precious thing around.

02:42:59.000 You don't have diamonds that are more valuable.

02:43:03.000 Right.

02:43:04.000 Especially if it really is from an extraterrestrial craft.

02:43:07.000 Exactly.

02:43:08.000 And so it's drug out every 10 years, looked at to see if there's anything that has improved in 10 years on the understanding of X, Y, and Z that makes sense or has something else shifted?

02:43:23.000 Has something else happened in the last 10 years that could make a difference on trying to understand the material?

02:43:33.000 Or craft or whatever.

02:43:35.000 So you think that's what they do with it?

02:43:36.000 They drag it out when technology is advanced and say, what do you think now?

02:43:40.000 Right.

02:43:41.000 And allow people to examine it.

02:43:42.000 And then it goes back in.

02:43:44.000 Storage.

02:43:45.000 Because not enough has changed.

02:43:48.000 Not enough has changed.

02:43:50.000 You know, we were talking about the speed of technology, but it's all relative, right?

02:43:53.000 Right.

02:43:54.000 So, this technology is so much more advanced.

02:43:59.000 You could do 10 years for 100 years and still be way short.

02:44:04.000 Now, how do you know that this stuff is in corporate hands?

02:44:06.000 Is this just hearsay?

02:44:07.000 Is this the discussions you've had?

02:44:09.000 I would imagine because you're so open about your interests.

02:44:12.000 That in your conversations with other people, whether it's at NASA, there's got to be other folks that also have similar interests that come to you and want to talk to you about these things.

02:44:26.000 Yeah, so there's a community of people, not necessarily NASA people, but that...

02:44:37.000 Have been trailing this for years.

02:44:39.000 George Knapp, for example.

02:44:42.000 And so it's not poorly known that certain corporations are involved.

02:44:53.000 It's not poorly known.

02:44:55.000 So it's kind of common knowledge?

02:44:56.000 Among certain folks.

02:44:59.000 That corporations are involved because they recovered it or they acquired it and that if they were able to mass produce whatever these alloys are, whatever these particular properties of these metals are, there would be obviously some amazing commercial value for this stuff.

02:45:16.000 It may be too precious for that.

02:45:23.000 What about bodies?

02:45:28.000 Now, are you talking about the Las Vegas desert or what?

02:45:30.000 I'm talking about alien bodies.

02:45:32.000 No, not like Sinatra's enemies.

02:45:35.000 Splashes in Lake Mead at one o'clock in the morning?

02:45:38.000 No.

02:45:39.000 Off of a cliff?

02:45:40.000 I'm talking about like alien bodies.

02:45:42.000 That was one of the weirder stories about Roswell, was that they had not just recovered a crashed UFO, but they had recovered these alien bodies.

02:45:53.000 What do you think about Jackie Gleason's wife's story about he and Richard Nixon?

02:45:58.000 Yeah.

02:45:59.000 Nixon taking him to the base and showing Jackie.

02:46:02.000 Yeah, I remember that story.

02:46:05.000 I had a friend who knew Jackie Gleason, and he said that Jackie Gleason had recreated in his backyard what he saw, what Nixon showed him.

02:46:16.000 Oh, wow.

02:46:17.000 Yeah, that apparently he was so blown away by Nixon...

02:46:21.000 I guess they were drinking.

02:46:23.000 This is the legend.

02:46:24.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:46:24.000 Nixon and Jackie Gleason were drinking.

02:46:26.000 Jackie Gleason's a fucking hilarious guy. 0.99

02:46:28.000 Probably love to drink. 0.98

02:46:29.000 I mean, definitely love to drink and probably so fun to drink with.

02:46:32.000 Him and Nixon are talking and Nixon says, you want to see a UFO? And takes Jackie Gleason to wherever it was, Hangar 18 or wherever it was where they had this UFO and shows him.

02:46:44.000 And it apparently changed Jackie Gleason's life and he couldn't stop talking about it.

02:46:48.000 And what I had heard was that he had it recreated in his backyard.

02:46:53.000 This thing.

02:46:54.000 See if there's a story about that.

02:46:55.000 That's a powerful impact, isn't it?

02:46:56.000 That's a story I'm looking through.

02:46:57.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:46:57.000 So he saw something.

02:46:58.000 Yeah.

02:46:59.000 Listen, I'd be friends with Nixon just for that.

02:47:00.000 It wasn't because of the booze, right?

02:47:02.000 No, no.

02:47:03.000 I don't think it was because of the booze. 0.96

02:47:04.000 I mean, look, I am as ridiculous as it sounds for someone who doesn't believe in psychics. 0.93

02:47:11.000 I'm a believer. 0.96

02:47:13.000 I want to believe, you know?

02:47:15.000 That's probably part of my problem, is that I want to believe.

02:47:20.000 And also, there's so many planets.

02:47:23.000 There's so many stars.

02:47:25.000 I mean, the universe is littered with planets.

02:47:29.000 And the idea that this is it, that you and me, this is as good as it gets?

02:47:33.000 Well, the odds of that are a trillion to one.

02:47:35.000 Yeah, they're not that good.

02:47:35.000 It's off the table.

02:47:37.000 The odds are so unlikely.

02:47:38.000 And then when you take into account people like Commander David Fravor, who I've had the pleasure of sitting down talking to and listening to his explanation, and then when you realize that the way his vehicle, the vehicle that he observed, moved Mirrors what Bob Lazar talked about from 1990. Now we're talking,

02:47:59.000 we're in this weird realm of like, huh.

02:48:02.000 So I'm a believer. 0.95

02:48:04.000 So if the government has it, I mean, shit, in the 1960s, when Nixon was president, and him and Jackie Gleason are partying, that's a credible story. 0.98

02:48:16.000 Or at least a fun one. 0.99

02:48:18.000 I always thought it was.

02:48:19.000 You find anything? 0.85

02:48:20.000 I can't find the thing about the backyard, because it just keeps bringing up his UFO house he had in New York, which is like a UFO-shaped house and a bunch of interesting cool shit inside of it. 0.72

02:48:29.000 Oh, whoa. 0.91

02:48:30.000 Maybe that's part of it.

02:48:33.000 Okay.

02:48:34.000 On his arrival, armed guards took Gleason to a building in a remote location on the site.

02:48:38.000 There, Gleason, who harbored an intense interest in UFOs, saw the embalmed bodies of four alien beings two feet long with small bald heads and big ears.

02:48:48.000 He was told nothing about the circumstances of their recovery.

02:48:51.000 He swore his wife to secrecy, but after their divorce, Beverly freely discussed the story. 1.00

02:48:56.000 That bitch! 1.00

02:48:57.000 He swore to secrecy! 1.00

02:48:59.000 That's what happens when you divorce them! 1.00

02:49:02.000 In the mid-1980s, when ufologist Larry Bryant sued the US government to get it to reveal its UFO secrets, he tried without success to subpoena Gleason. 0.99

02:49:13.000 Holy shit. 0.97

02:49:15.000 So that's the thing in his house. 1.00

02:49:16.000 That's his backyard.

02:49:18.000 That's his UFO house. 0.72

02:49:19.000 So he built a house.

02:49:22.000 So that was what they were talking about.

02:49:24.000 It wasn't that he just built a UFO. He built a fucking house shaped like a UFO. Where is that? 1.00

02:49:30.000 New York.

02:49:31.000 Is that still there?

02:49:34.000 You ought to buy it, bro.

02:49:35.000 That's what I'm talking about, bro.

02:49:37.000 That's what I'm talking about.

02:49:38.000 It was for sale?

02:49:39.000 Well, here's the reality.com thing for it.

02:49:41.000 $12 million.

02:49:42.000 Oh, that's a little steep for a fucking goof in a circle house. 0.99

02:49:45.000 Yeah, it's probably negotiable. 0.99

02:49:45.000 It must be negotiable. 0.99

02:49:47.000 But it's Jackie Gleason's.

02:49:48.000 It's probably worth it just because it's Jackie Gleason's.

02:49:50.000 Listen, The Hustler is one of my all-time favorite movies.

02:49:53.000 I'm a pool player.

02:49:54.000 And so that movie, I've seen that movie literally probably a hundred times.

02:49:57.000 Because they used to put it on in the executive billiards in White Plains, New York.

02:50:01.000 They would play it late at night all the time.

02:50:03.000 So we would be playing pool.

02:50:04.000 They'd put The Hustler on.

02:50:04.000 Everybody loved it.

02:50:05.000 Yeah.

02:50:05.000 Such a great movie.

02:50:06.000 And Jackie Gleason was amazing in it.

02:50:09.000 And a serious role, too.

02:50:10.000 Not a comedic role at all.

02:50:12.000 Yeah.

02:50:12.000 He was great in The Honeymooners, wasn't he?

02:50:14.000 He was great in everything.

02:50:15.000 Jackie Gleason was great in Smoky and the Bandit.

02:50:17.000 He was just great.

02:50:18.000 I love that guy.

02:50:19.000 But I love him even more because he's a UFO freak.

02:50:25.000 Do you think that they have some sort of body somewhere?

02:50:28.000 Yeah.

02:50:29.000 You do?

02:50:30.000 I do.

02:50:30.000 What makes you think that?

02:50:33.000 Um...

02:50:38.000 I think...

02:50:39.000 Why do I think that?

02:50:48.000 I'm trying to narrow it down.

02:50:52.000 Well, I think that...

02:51:00.000 I'm trying to not get into conversations.

02:51:03.000 So I think that because it's in the...

02:51:13.000 I think there are enough different kinds of sources in the media about people seeing things.

02:51:19.000 I did an interview years ago with Safro Henderson and Stan Friedman and Kevin Randall went to her house in California Because her husband was Pappy Henderson.

02:51:39.000 And Pappy Henderson was one of the pilots that flew material, flew stuff out of Wright-Patt.

02:51:47.000 And she said, he said, they were in a grocery store one day, and the Enquirer had a big article.

02:51:56.000 Aliens revealed, so on and so forth.

02:51:59.000 And there's the checkout stand.

02:52:01.000 And she said he took the story seriously.

02:52:06.000 And after they checked out, he said, well, I guess I can tell you now.

02:52:10.000 Because it's out.

02:52:11.000 So he told her...

02:52:12.000 He thought the Inquirer was serious?

02:52:14.000 He thought it was...

02:52:15.000 Whatever it was.

02:52:16.000 Inquirer, I think it was.

02:52:17.000 Could have been some other one.

02:52:18.000 But I just used that as a...

02:52:19.000 One of those tabloids.

02:52:21.000 As one.

02:52:22.000 Yeah, magazine.

02:52:23.000 And he said, well, I guess the story's out.

02:52:27.000 I can tell you now.

02:52:29.000 About...

02:52:29.000 I flew...

02:52:33.000 Crates and wreckage out of...

02:52:37.000 And you told her about the whole UFO thing.

02:52:39.000 And I believe that she said that he said to her there were bodies.

02:52:56.000 Right.

02:53:06.000 To Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.

02:53:07.000 And that if they really thought it was just a balloon, why would they fly it in two separate planes to Wright-Patterson?

02:53:13.000 And that Truman, it was Truman, right?

02:53:15.000 How was it they couldn't recognize balloon material from something else?

02:53:19.000 And you had a debris field that was a quarter mile wide, half a mile long.

02:53:22.000 Yeah.

02:53:23.000 It's all pretty fantastic stuff.

02:53:25.000 But again, part of my problem is I want to believe.

02:53:28.000 That's part of my problem. 0.99

02:53:29.000 Is that I'm willing to bullshit myself. 0.93

02:53:33.000 Well, do you believe in a God force? 0.98

02:53:35.000 A God force?

02:53:36.000 A God or God or a God force?

02:53:38.000 Do you believe there is such a thing?

02:53:41.000 Can you define it?

02:53:43.000 Well, do you have any belief that there is a supreme being of the universe or a God force of some kind?

02:53:58.000 I don't think it's impossible.

02:54:02.000 I don't know.

02:54:03.000 I don't know.

02:54:04.000 What creates a Big Bang?

02:54:06.000 Like, what starts this whole process?

02:54:08.000 What causes nature?

02:54:10.000 What causes all these elements to fuse and create carbon-based life?

02:54:14.000 What causes planets to exist in a Goldilocks range around the sun?

02:54:20.000 Is it just happenstance?

02:54:21.000 Is it coincidence?

02:54:22.000 Is it just...

02:54:23.000 So, the Big Bang, you know, is on its way out.

02:54:25.000 The Big Bang's on its way out?

02:54:26.000 It's on its way out.

02:54:27.000 Oh.

02:54:28.000 Okay.

02:54:28.000 So it's like fossil fuels?

02:54:30.000 So string theory is on its way out.

02:54:33.000 Is it?

02:54:34.000 Yep. 0.99

02:54:35.000 What about all those guys that have been scribbling shit on legal pads for years? 0.99

02:54:38.000 So like a physicist friend of mine said very recently that perhaps an entire generation has wasted its time. 0.98

02:54:48.000 We've lost an entire generation of people, maybe longer than that, in my opinion.

02:54:52.000 So what do they think now?

02:54:54.000 The thinking is, first of all, it's a little bit bogus to think that the universe extends only as far as you can see, 13.5 billion light-years.

02:55:06.000 I think they don't believe that, though.

02:55:08.000 They think that's just as far as we can measure it, right?

02:55:12.000 Well, they assume that the universe is expanding and they're judging that based on 13 and a half billion light years of sight.

02:55:23.000 That may be a very, very small neighborhood.

02:55:25.000 But that's as far as the cave wall is and you're not seeing beyond the cave wall.

02:55:30.000 You're also telling me that you know a lot about the cosmos and you want me to believe you.

02:55:37.000 Right.

02:55:39.000 Right.

02:55:54.000 Really?

02:55:55.000 I think what they're trying to tell us is this is what we know so far.

02:56:00.000 I think that's what they're trying to tell us.

02:56:01.000 I think they're as perplexed about dark matter and dark energy as we are, but they have a lot of information about background radiation, about the signals that seem to indicate...

02:56:15.000 In a neighborhood.

02:56:16.000 In a neighborhood.

02:56:17.000 Yeah, in a neighborhood.

02:56:19.000 In our neighborhood.

02:56:19.000 Well, if the universe is infinite, 13.5 billion years is nothing.

02:56:23.000 It's like literally this block.

02:56:24.000 Yeah.

02:56:25.000 Not even.

02:56:25.000 And then, of course, what singularity?

02:56:28.000 You know, Big Bang started from what?

02:56:30.000 From what?

02:56:31.000 From what?

02:56:32.000 And so string theory is a series of what?

02:56:34.000 11-12 theories and hypotheses stand on top of each other and they all have to be perfect.

02:56:39.000 They all have to fit.

02:56:40.000 Then you wind up with this other conclusion that basically everything started from nothing.

02:56:47.000 Well, they don't think it starts from nothing.

02:56:48.000 They think it started from an infinitely small point that exploded in an instant and created all the matter that we see in the universe today.

02:56:56.000 Okay.

02:56:56.000 So I concede the head of a pin as not being nothing.

02:57:00.000 Okay.

02:57:00.000 I concede that.

02:57:01.000 Well, better concede it because it's got more matter than anything in our solar system or galaxy.

02:57:07.000 Okay, right.

02:57:08.000 It's just a theory.

02:57:09.000 Right.

02:57:09.000 So it's just an opinion.

02:57:10.000 Okay.

02:57:11.000 Right, but it's an opinion by people that have been studying this their whole lives.

02:57:14.000 And now it's going out the door.

02:57:16.000 It is?

02:57:18.000 That's what I've been told.

02:57:19.000 Who told you that?

02:57:20.000 The psychic?

02:57:21.000 No.

02:57:23.000 Now, if I correlate the physicist that told me that, along with the psychic, you really have something here.

02:57:28.000 No.

02:57:31.000 I think there's been a bunch of different ideas about the Big Bang, whether or not it's a constant cycle of expansion and contraction.

02:57:39.000 And then there's been...

02:57:41.000 I kind of actually like that one.

02:57:42.000 Yeah.

02:57:43.000 I like that.

02:57:43.000 A certain kind of steady state of elasticity, expansion and contraction that continues to go on and on with the orderly force Being whatever dark energy and dark matter is to maintain organization, to maintain harmony and everything.

02:58:02.000 So you reach maximum elasticity and then it starts to retract again.

02:58:07.000 To your density is maximum density and you do this all over.

02:58:11.000 That is a theory that I've heard.

02:58:13.000 I like that one.

02:58:14.000 Another theory that I think is pretty fascinating is the theory that inside of every black hole might be another universe.

02:58:21.000 That the idea of inside every galaxy apparently is a supermassive black hole that's exactly one half.

02:58:28.000 I think it's one half of 1% of the mass of the entire galaxy.

02:58:32.000 So this intense...

02:58:34.000 Massive black hole at the center of every galaxy.

02:58:38.000 And the theory, at least the one that I had read, was that if you could go through that black hole, you would enter into another universe.

02:58:48.000 And that each of these galaxies has infinite, like, there's infinite number of galaxies essentially, right?

02:58:55.000 There's hundreds and hundreds of billions of galaxies.

02:58:58.000 And each galaxy has a black hole inside of it.

02:59:02.000 A supermassive black hole.

02:59:03.000 And that through that, you would go into another universe.

02:59:06.000 And that there's infinite universes.

02:59:08.000 Because there's just all these portals and inside each one of them, there's hundreds of millions of galaxies or hundreds of billions of galaxies.

02:59:15.000 Each one of them has a black hole.

02:59:17.000 Go through that, you reach more universes with hundreds of billions of galaxies.

02:59:21.000 And it's just, that's true infinity.

02:59:23.000 And you can have the same effect if you have infinite bubbles.

02:59:26.000 So you have multiverses that are these bubbles.

02:59:28.000 Maybe the bubbles are 100 or 200 billion light years in diameter.

02:59:34.000 I don't buy that space is finite.

02:59:38.000 I think it's endless.

02:59:39.000 I don't think there ever was a beginning.

02:59:41.000 I don't think there was an end to the universe.

02:59:44.000 And so I think time is only relevant when it's connected to some kind of matter or electrical energy or like electrons or protons or something.

02:59:53.000 Like that.

02:59:54.000 And otherwise there's no time.

02:59:56.000 Because what are you measuring it against?

02:59:58.000 Right.

02:59:59.000 So that means that, okay, time could be infinite.

03:00:02.000 Okay.

03:00:03.000 And so is distance.

03:00:04.000 There was no beginning and there is no end.

03:00:08.000 Yeah, that freaks us out.

03:00:10.000 But so should 13 and a half billion years.

03:00:13.000 13 and a half billion light years.

03:00:15.000 That should freak you out too.

03:00:16.000 All of it is beyond our possibility of understanding.

03:00:21.000 Because it's just so massive.

03:00:22.000 Like when you see the number 13 billion, it's like, okay, I see it.

03:00:26.000 I know how many zeros there are.

03:00:27.000 But my brain's not ready for that.

03:00:29.000 It doesn't really compute.

03:00:30.000 But what does that have to do with the concept of God though?

03:00:35.000 So I was asking you, do you believe in a God force?

03:00:38.000 And you said, yes, you think so.

03:00:40.000 I said it's certainly possible.

03:00:42.000 Okay, now why do you think it's possible?

03:00:44.000 Because the universe is so spectacular that the idea that there's some force that's created it doesn't make it any less spectacular.

03:00:54.000 It's so insane.

03:00:56.000 Just what you're looking at on a night sky, on a clear night sky, if you're in a place with no light pollution, is so insane.

03:01:04.000 The idea that there's some God force as well that makes all these things happen and creates all these things and there's actually like a good path and a bad path for at least sentient life forms and that there's some sort of ultimate goal for this matter coalescing.

03:01:20.000 Like, it's possible.

03:01:23.000 So if you think there's a God force that's omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, what role does thought play in that?

03:01:34.000 It's a good question.

03:01:35.000 The thought could be what we were talking about earlier, that this could be how this human animal creates, how this human animal innovates, and how it interacts with other animals and gives it motivation to create and innovate, and this is what creates this new form of life.

03:01:53.000 I've often said that I think that human beings might be some sort of We're good to go.

03:02:06.000 We're good to go.

03:02:28.000 That's what people do.

03:02:29.000 They make things.

03:02:30.000 And if this is what our goal is, just like a bee makes a beehive and we make things, what's the ultimate expression of those things?

03:02:38.000 Well, the ultimate expression would be a new form of life.

03:02:41.000 And it seems there's a lot of work being pushed in that direction.

03:02:45.000 There's a lot of work being pushed in the direction of artificial intelligence, of robotics.

03:02:51.000 I mean, there's so much Research that's going on right now to try to create these autonomous things that move around on their own.

03:03:02.000 Whether it's autonomous soldiers for the battlefield, or whether it's drones that can fly themselves and operate on artificial intelligence.

03:03:11.000 This direction is going to eventually, if you talk to people far smarter than me, like Elon Musk is terrified of it because he thinks it's unchecked and that it's going to lead to something that's super potent, sentient, far smarter than us and has no use for us.

03:03:30.000 Not a good thought.

03:03:31.000 Not a good thought.

03:03:32.000 Yeah.

03:03:34.000 So...

03:03:37.000 So then you keep it open that God can be a creator and can respond to the power of prayer.

03:03:42.000 If you are praying for somebody, and there are a lot of studies that say the power of prayer works more than just a placebo kind of effect, that it actually works if you have a control group and a group that you're praying for and a group that's in a lot of tests like this that are double-blind tests.

03:04:01.000 And it works in a laboratory kind of context.

03:04:06.000 What is it that's responding to the request for prayer?

03:04:10.000 Is it a God force?

03:04:12.000 What is it that's responding?

03:04:15.000 I don't know that that's true.

03:04:17.000 I don't know that it's true that prayer works like that.

03:04:20.000 I do know that the placebo effect works and I do know that the mind has extraordinary properties that we haven't harnessed.

03:04:27.000 I do know that people have the ability to change their state of mind and it'll change their physical well-being.

03:04:33.000 I do know that people have the ability to boost their immune system through breathing exercises and meditation and that we don't totally understand how they're doing that or why they're doing that or why we can't recreate that without that kind of discipline.

03:04:47.000 There's a fellow who's written some good books.

03:04:51.000 He's an MD, retired and I guess he left the hospital world because he was intrigued with the anomalies he found among his patients.

03:05:04.000 And one of his books, I think, has something to do with the title of The Power of Prayer.

03:05:09.000 His name is Larry Dossie.

03:05:11.000 Dr. Larry Dawsey.

03:05:13.000 And it's a really book that's worth reading.

03:05:18.000 He authored it quite a few years ago.

03:05:20.000 And he talks about the power of prayer?

03:05:23.000 The power of prayer.

03:05:24.000 And I think he gets into the investigation.

03:05:35.000 I think that's also probably works in a negative way too, right?

03:05:38.000 This is what the concept of voodoo was. 0.96

03:05:40.000 The concept of voodoo was that someone puts a curse on you and they let you know they put a curse on you and then your life is fucked and then you get it in your head that your life is fucked and then you have this self-fulfilling prophecy. 0.69

03:05:50.000 Well, supposedly the results under legitimate test conditions are that the results are greater than you can explain Otherwise, 0.96

03:06:08.000 you may not even know that you're being prayed for.

03:06:10.000 It's a controlled situation, so you don't even know that you're part of the group that's being prayed for.

03:06:15.000 How would you measure that, though, when you're talking about response from illness?

03:06:18.000 Everybody varies depending upon your immune system.

03:06:22.000 There's a lot of different things.

03:06:23.000 Nutrition, youth, health.

03:06:25.000 I think that gets into how the tests are set up in order to make sure that they're balanced in the group, the sample group that's being prayed for, or the person.

03:06:39.000 Maybe it's an individual.

03:06:40.000 I think if someone knew you were praying for them, it would help.

03:06:43.000 That seems to make a lot of sense.

03:06:45.000 If you know you're being loved, it'd make you feel better.

03:06:47.000 It'd make you energized.

03:06:50.000 When you're loved, there's a feeling, a reaction.

03:06:54.000 According to the literature, not just his book, but others, that it helps also the number of people that are praying for you and how committed everybody is to that, how earnest they are in the effort.

03:07:07.000 So, apparently, that matters.

03:07:10.000 What do you think about all that, Jamie?

03:07:14.000 It's a lot.

03:07:15.000 It's a lot to think of.

03:07:18.000 Listen, Robert, we've had a long conversation here.

03:07:20.000 I think we're at three hours in?

03:07:22.000 Yeah.

03:07:24.000 Three hours.

03:07:27.000 With no restroom break and I'm just fine.

03:07:29.000 You're amazing.

03:07:30.000 A lot of people, they tap out early to run out to pee.

03:07:34.000 You handle it like a champ.

03:07:36.000 But thank you for all your work.

03:07:38.000 Thank you for all the things you're interested in investigating.

03:07:41.000 And thank you for your time to come here and sit down and talk to me.

03:07:43.000 Well, I tell you, this is my pleasure.

03:07:45.000 This is for me that it's a great honor to be able to be on your show.

03:07:50.000 Thank you.

03:07:50.000 It's an honor to have you.

03:07:51.000 I appreciate it.

03:07:52.000 Thank you, sir.

03:07:52.000 Thank you very much.

03:07:53.000 Thank you.

03:07:53.000 All right.

03:07:54.000 Goodbye, everybody.

The Joe Rogan Experience - February 25, 2021

Joe Rogan Experience #1612 - Robert Bigelow

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