The Joe Rogan Experience - December 16, 2012


Joe Rogan Experience #298 - Dennis McKenna

Topics
novelty in history events time wave theory psilocybin mushrooms folia du mushrooms evolution brain synesthesia language cave paintings and altered states psilocybin research regulatory change classification of marijuana medical marijuana drug education time wave zero time wave theory psilocybin experiences sensory deprivation tank psychedelic salon lectures culture
Hosted by
Joe Rogan
Guests
Dennis McKenna
Mentioned
Mitch Terence Joey Coco Diaz Dennis McKenna Duncan Keith Cleversley Graham Hancock Rick Strassman Schedule II Sing Along Alex Gray Luis Eduardo Luna Honey Honey Band J. Allen Hynek Caitlin McKenna Alien Dreamtime Doug Stanhope Jeff Richards Francis Crick Jimmy Fallon and 43 more
Joe Rogan Experience #297 - Dom Irrera Joe Rogan Experience #299 - Honey Honey

Episode Stats


Length

2 hours and 38 minutes

Words per minute

148.43

Word count

23,578

Sentence count

2,096

Harmful content

Misogyny

9

sentences flagged

Toxicity

127

sentences flagged

Hate speech

28

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Joe Rogan is joined by author Dennis McKenna to discuss his new book, The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss, and the life and career of his late brother Terrence McKenna. Also, the band Honey Honey Band is playing the End of the World show at the Wiltern Theater on Friday, Dec. 21st, and there are only about 100 seats left. So if you want in, you better hurry up and get your tickets, because there's only a few seats left! And if you don't, you're not going to want to miss this one. It's going to be a wild one, and we're here to tell you why you should definitely go see it. Also, we're going to try to do a live show at The Improv on Thursday, but it's a Death Squad show, and Jeff Richards is going to host it, so be sure to check it out at The Comedy Cellar. And as always, thank you so much for tuning into HYPEBEAST Radio and Business of HYPE. Please don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to our other shows MIC/LINE, The Anthropology, The HYPE Report, and HYPETALKS. Please also, rate and review our new show on Apple Podcasts! Subscribe to our new podcast Podchaser.ee/TheChadCast and leave us a rating and review on iTunes! Thank you so we can keep spreading the word out there about this podcast! -Jon Sorrents and other things going on the internet about HYPETEVERYTHING going on this week's episode of HYPETEROSYS and other shit like that's cool and cool! and we'll send you a review on the Podchats and other cool things you like it too! on the podchats! Thanks again for listening, Jon Sorrentino and thanks for listening to the pod, Jon and Brett and Brett are looking out for you. -Dennis McKenna -Kaitlyn and Brett is looking forward to seeing you in the next episode of The Vagabaugh and all that's going on in the future of the podcast and we hope you're having a good time! Love ya, Brett and Brent and Brett loves you, too much else. Brian and Brett, too! -Kai and Brett & Brett - Kevin Pereira - Thank you for listening and sending us love and all good vibes!

Transcript

Transcripts from "The Joe Rogan Experience" are sourced from the Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool. Explore them interactively here.
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:03.000 Hello, everybody.
00:00:04.000 This weekend, Friday, December 21st, 2012, it's the End of the World show at the Wiltern Theater.
00:00:11.000 Honey Honey Band, Joey Coco Diaz, Doug Stanhope, and me.
00:00:16.000 Last time we checked, there was only about...
00:00:18.000 Hello.
00:00:19.000 Last time we checked, there was only about 100 seats left.
00:00:22.000 So if you want in. 0.99
00:00:23.000 And no, we don't think the fucking world is going to end. 0.99
00:00:26.000 All right? 0.99
00:00:27.000 Settle down.
00:00:28.000 You really don't?
00:00:28.000 No!
00:00:30.000 Everybody settle down.
00:00:32.000 Also, what do you got going on this week?
00:00:35.000 The Improv Thursday?
00:00:37.000 Yeah, the Improv Thursday.
00:00:38.000 We're going to try to do a live podcast there up above.
00:00:42.000 And while we're trying to do a Nice House Chronicles, but at the Improv, it's a Death Squad show.
00:00:46.000 Joey Diaz is going to be on it.
00:00:49.000 Jeff Richards is going to host it.
00:00:51.000 I don't know if you've seen Jeff Richards lately. 0.97
00:00:52.000 He is fucking hilarious now. 0.94
00:00:54.000 He's got the best... 0.99
00:00:56.000 What's that?
00:00:56.000 Jimmy Fallon?
00:00:57.000 Jimmy Fallon on a roller coaster.
00:01:00.000 It's hilarious.
00:01:02.000 It'll make you pee yourself.
00:01:03.000 I don't think I'm going to pee myself, but thanks for the plug.
00:01:07.000 If you're interested, people keep asking me where do you get those crazy cat t-shirts and DeskBot shirts.
00:01:12.000 Go to DeskBot.tv.
00:01:15.000 And that also pays to support the Death Squad podcast network that Brian produces, which has the excellent Kevin Pereira Pointless show on it now. 0.99
00:01:25.000 It's a fucking great show. 0.65
00:01:27.000 All those podcasts are for free. 0.99
00:01:28.000 You can get them all on DeathSquad.tv. 1.00
00:01:32.000 All right, you dirty fucks. 1.00
00:01:34.000 We're about to start the podcast. 1.00
00:01:35.000 We have Dennis McKenna here, and we're going to get down to business. 0.99
00:01:38.000 We're going to find out what the fuck is up. 0.99
00:01:40.000 The author of The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss. 0.99
00:01:46.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.
00:01:54.000 What's with the craziness? 1.00
00:01:56.000 What are you doing with that sound, you son of a bitch? 1.00
00:01:58.000 Settle down. 0.99
00:02:00.000 Dennis McKenna, first of all, and your friends, I'm sorry, I forgot your names because we might have indulged in something that makes you forget things really quickly.
00:02:07.000 Keith Cleversley.
00:02:08.000 If you can talk into the mic if you want.
00:02:11.000 It's Keith Cleversley.
00:02:12.000 Keith Cleversley.
00:02:14.000 Close enough.
00:02:17.000 Caitlin McKenna.
00:02:18.000 Caitlin McKenna.
00:02:19.000 That's legacy right there, ladies and gentlemen.
00:02:22.000 Dennis, first of all, thank you for coming on, and thank you for sending me your book, not once, not twice, but three times.
00:02:27.000 Thank you, Joe.
00:02:29.000 I'm happy to be here.
00:02:30.000 I want to be sure you've got a copy of the book in your hand.
00:02:33.000 Yeah, I started reading it in Vegas, which I think is very ironic.
00:02:37.000 You know, to be in that...
00:02:40.000 The darkest of places that mankind has created and start to read this book.
00:02:45.000 But I have known of you for a long, long time.
00:02:50.000 I was turned on to some of your brother's stuff through, it was a song someone played me.
00:02:58.000 Not a song, but a rave that he did where he would talk over the rave and do like his end of the world, end of time sort of rant.
00:03:08.000 Yeah, yeah.
00:03:10.000 It was called Time Wave Zero, wasn't it?
00:03:12.000 The piece?
00:03:16.000 Yeah, it could have been.
00:03:17.000 I mean, I know he was in several of those things.
00:03:19.000 The one I remember is Alien Dreamtime.
00:03:22.000 Yes, yes.
00:03:23.000 Was that the one?
00:03:24.000 Well, Alien Dreamtime, wasn't that like a movie?
00:03:27.000 No, that was an album.
00:03:30.000 I think Ken Adams, actually, who just recently released a movie called The Terrence McKenna Experience.
00:03:37.000 I don't know if you saw it.
00:03:38.000 It's a documentary?
00:03:40.000 Well, no, not exactly.
00:03:42.000 I mean, old clips from other appearances.
00:03:46.000 Pretty good.
00:03:47.000 Interesting movie.
00:03:49.000 Now, that one clip that I'd listened to, really, might have started an entirely new chapter of my life.
00:04:00.000 Just because it was so...
00:04:02.000 First of all, it was so freaky, you know?
00:04:05.000 And you never heard anyone talk that way.
00:04:08.000 And your brother had this really odd inflection that was like...
00:04:15.000 When someone is really smart and they talk with a really odd inflection, you start wondering what's wrong with you.
00:04:22.000 You know, like, why am I not talking like this guy?
00:04:24.000 Like, maybe he's right.
00:04:25.000 He's on a something.
00:04:25.000 Like, how confident he is to talk like that.
00:04:27.000 Well, one of the things that was always sort of charming about Terence was that it didn't really matter what he said.
00:04:34.000 I mean, I used to get after him and say, what you said 20 minutes ago didn't make any sense.
00:04:39.000 And it directly contradicts what you just said, which also doesn't make any sense.
00:04:45.000 But the thing is it doesn't matter because Terry, Terence, he could have read the phone book and it would have sounded great and people would be hanging on every word because he just had that gift.
00:04:57.000 He had the voice.
00:04:59.000 He could mesmerize people and he was obviously super intelligent, widely read, knew all this stuff as a result of his Reading in the Tussman program and before that, alchemy and,
00:05:15.000 you know, black magic and Eastern philosophy and all of this stuff.
00:05:19.000 You know, I mean, he was by far a much broader scholar than I'll ever be.
00:05:25.000 I mean, I'm quite narrow, you know.
00:05:27.000 I mean, I know science.
00:05:28.000 That's what I know.
00:05:29.000 You know, not really, he was just incredible.
00:05:34.000 He could draw on so many, you know, threads of knowledge and people were hungry to hear it.
00:05:42.000 I mean, here was a guy who could say You know, he loved provocative statements, right?
00:05:48.000 He loved to, you know, antagonize, you know, make people think, and people wanted to be challenged.
00:05:56.000 You know, and that was part of his appeal, I think, a great deal of his appeal.
00:06:01.000 I remember in the early...
00:06:03.000 It was in the 80s, before anybody really got to know who Terence was, but he was out a few radio clips and that sort of thing.
00:06:11.000 But back in the early 80s, do you remember Sing Along with Mitch?
00:06:16.000 Sing Along with Mitch?
00:06:17.000 What was that?
00:06:17.000 You were probably too young for this.
00:06:19.000 Yeah, Sing Along with Mitch. 1.00
00:06:20.000 It was like this really cheesy, stupid music show with this guy Mitch... 0.99
00:06:28.000 Do you remember what his last name was? 1.00
00:06:30.000 I don't know.
00:06:30.000 But it was all about sing-along with Mitch.
00:06:32.000 And he would present the show and they'd sing all these old songs.
00:06:35.000 And he'd get people in the audience watching television to sing, right?
00:06:41.000 And so Terrence went on one of these programs and the moderator said, you know, you're like sing-along with Mitch, except it's like, think-along with Terrence.
00:06:53.000 Right?
00:06:54.000 Yeah.
00:06:54.000 And it was like that, you know?
00:06:56.000 He just stimulated people to think about things they'd never really thought about.
00:07:02.000 So this was the show?
00:07:03.000 Sing along with Mitch.
00:07:06.000 Hello.
00:07:07.000 There's a darn good reason for the excitement here tonight.
00:07:09.000 That was the one. 0.73
00:07:10.000 Yes!
00:07:11.000 Yes, that was the one.
00:07:12.000 One of the immortals of Horton Pictures and the legend in her own time, Shirley Temple.
00:07:18.000 She's due at the studio at any moment.
00:07:21.000 Crazy.
00:07:21.000 Uh-huh.
00:07:23.000 You really can't talk like that on TV anymore.
00:07:25.000 People will wonder why you're talking like that.
00:07:27.000 No, I know.
00:07:28.000 I know.
00:07:28.000 But this was so, you know, this was way back.
00:07:31.000 Isn't that interesting though, that style of talking?
00:07:33.000 Yeah.
00:07:33.000 There was like this weird, fake style of talking on television back then that they just don't do anymore.
00:07:39.000 What an interesting show.
00:07:41.000 Yeah, it was very interesting.
00:07:43.000 So that was really, you know, that was a big strength of Terence.
00:07:48.000 He was so articulate.
00:07:50.000 Charismatic.
00:07:51.000 He was well-educated, and he could make whatever he was talking about make sense, or sound like it was making sense, even when it didn't, you know?
00:08:02.000 Well, he had so many interesting ideas that opened up so many people to...
00:08:08.000 To new possibilities, but there were most certainly a few of them that were very, very controversial.
00:08:14.000 Time wave zero, novelty theory being a big one, which I tried to explain this to a friend of mine once, and just trying to explain it, I sounded completely crazy.
00:08:26.000 I said, it's a something...
00:08:28.000 He was trying to figure out how to measure time through using the I Ching, which is an ancient Chinese method of divination that's somehow based on...
00:08:38.000 Hexagrams and maybe a map of time. 0.99
00:08:41.000 And my friend looked at me like I was out of my fucking mind. 0.83
00:08:45.000 And I'm like, well, the idea is that time is like an algorithm somehow or another. 0.99
00:08:49.000 You can track it.
00:08:50.000 Right.
00:08:51.000 So are you familiar with the I Ching at all? 0.99
00:08:54.000 Yes.
00:08:55.000 So that was the framework for this idea.
00:08:59.000 And the time wave...
00:09:02.000 That's one area where we had a very different perspective.
00:09:08.000 Actually, in the book, I have a chapter on the time wave and I kind of unpack the time wave.
00:09:14.000 My own perspective on it was that he postulated that the time wave was an actual map of time.
00:09:26.000 And I think that's where he overstepped the bounds.
00:09:29.000 I think what really happened was he rediscovered an ancient Chinese calendar.
00:09:35.000 Because you can use the I Ching as a calendar. 1.00
00:09:37.000 There's no doubt.
00:09:38.000 He's demonstrated that.
00:09:40.000 But if he rediscovered an ancient Chinese calendar based on the I Ching, That would have been remarkable.
00:09:46.000 A few Chinese scholars would have congratulated him and nobody would have, you know, noticed beyond that.
00:09:52.000 But then he, you know, sort of postulated this whole crazy notion about time and about how time was a fractal structure and made up of resonances.
00:10:04.000 And anyway, the sort of, you know, the thing of interest for most people was that he had to postulate an end date.
00:10:14.000 He postulated several end dates, you know, because the theory said it had to have a beginning, a middle, and an end.
00:10:20.000 He postulated several end dates, but the one he finally settled on was December 21, 2012, you know, which was Close enough.
00:10:30.000 I mean, he actually postulated an end date that was slightly off that by several weeks.
00:10:37.000 It was November, right?
00:10:38.000 Yeah, November, right.
00:10:40.000 And so we're talking about a cycle of billions of years, right?
00:10:44.000 So he looked at that and then he found out or already knew about the Mayan calendar and thought, well, they're close enough.
00:10:50.000 Let's just sync these together.
00:10:52.000 But there's no direct connection to the Mayan calendar other than that.
00:10:56.000 But didn't he say that he arrived at it completely independently?
00:11:00.000 Of the Mayan calendar?
00:11:02.000 Yeah, of the Mayan calendar.
00:11:03.000 Well...
00:11:04.000 The time date, he said that...
00:11:05.000 Is that like...
00:11:06.000 I don't know.
00:11:07.000 A little fudgery?
00:11:09.000 A little fudgery.
00:11:10.000 He arrived at a date that was close to that.
00:11:14.000 Right.
00:11:14.000 You know, and then...
00:11:16.000 But also, you know, during the time...
00:11:20.000 There were several times in the past when he postulated end dates...
00:11:25.000 That, you know, we're, I mean, the Time Wave wasn't well known, and there were, you know, it came and went, nothing happened.
00:11:31.000 And he just viewed that as part of the process of trying to, you know, fit this thing against history.
00:11:40.000 Did anybody go back and re-examine the I Ching for the possibility of it being a really effective ancient Chinese calendar?
00:11:46.000 Has anybody looked at that aspect of it?
00:11:49.000 Well, no one to my knowledge except Terence.
00:11:52.000 I mean if you just split that part out.
00:11:55.000 It's like it's out there though.
00:11:57.000 Well, that it's a calendar.
00:12:00.000 Well, then Terence believed it was.
00:12:02.000 Why wouldn't someone follow up on that?
00:12:05.000 Forget about the map of time thing, which is really, really hard to follow.
00:12:10.000 But just that aspect of it seems like it would be worth looking into.
00:12:13.000 It would be worth looking into from scholarship.
00:12:16.000 Yeah, definitely.
00:12:17.000 I mean, there's no doubt that it is a perfect 384-day, 13-month lunar calendar.
00:12:25.000 I mean, it works very well.
00:12:27.000 Works as well as any...
00:12:28.000 Other calendrical system that we have.
00:12:31.000 You know, they all have inaccuracies.
00:12:36.000 You know, and that alone is remarkable.
00:12:40.000 But he had this whole other theory.
00:12:42.000 And, you know, the problem...
00:12:46.000 That I had with the time wave theory was that there was no way to quantify it.
00:12:53.000 This idea of novelty.
00:12:55.000 I mean, I believe novelty ingresses into the continuum, but it's hard to put a number on that.
00:13:02.000 I mean, just look around.
00:13:04.000 Novelty is ingressing into the continuum, and it appears to be accelerating.
00:13:09.000 But maybe that's just our impression.
00:13:12.000 But this was his idea.
00:13:14.000 The question is, how do you define a novel event?
00:13:18.000 Are novel events...
00:13:19.000 I mean, he had the theory that novel events suddenly erupt into history and make a change.
00:13:28.000 And those kinds of events are really rare.
00:13:31.000 I mean, asteroid impacts, that kind of thing.
00:13:34.000 Yeah, those are abrupt novel events.
00:13:38.000 But he used to cite, for example...
00:13:41.000 You know, the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima.
00:13:46.000 You know, I mean, that had a huge impact on history.
00:13:50.000 Everything after that time was different.
00:13:52.000 You know, it changed our lives.
00:13:54.000 But was that the novel event?
00:13:57.000 Or was it the testing of the bomb in Alamogordo?
00:13:59.000 Or was it, you know, Einstein's discovery of the equations that enabled this to be possible?
00:14:05.000 All those things were novel events, which happened very quietly and kind of unnoticed.
00:14:11.000 But if they hadn't happened, this spectacular thing over Hiroshima would not have happened either, right? 0.90
00:14:18.000 So my view of it was that novelty kind of diffuses into history rather than erupt into history.
00:14:26.000 And pretty soon, you know, everything changes.
00:14:28.000 But it changes over time, and we're not even subjectively aware of it that much.
00:14:34.000 What was his motivation to pursue that, like to pursue such a strange and very hard to follow theory?
00:14:45.000 Well, to pursue this time wave theory, well, to explain that, we really have to go back to We should probably explain the time wave, too, for people who don't know what the hell we're talking about. 0.96
00:14:58.000 There might be people that are going, what the fuck are they saying?
00:15:01.000 What is the time wave theory? 0.99
00:15:02.000 Right.
00:15:03.000 Well, the time wave theory is this mathematical construct, you know, based on the I Ching that Terence got basically downloaded to him when we did the...
00:15:16.000 What's been famously known as the Experiment at La Charrera, you know, which the book also talks about and which, again, a lot of people, if you're a Terence McKenna fan, you know what that is.
00:15:27.000 If you're not, you're wondering, what the hell is this, you know?
00:15:31.000 So, but the Experiment at La Charrera was when we Well, how do we explain it?
00:15:39.000 I don't even know if we could go into it on the podcast, but it was something that we attempted to do when we went to South America looking for exotic hallucinogens, and this was in 1971. And we were motivated...
00:15:59.000 I mean, I'm sort of getting off track here, but I'm trying to bring it back to the issue of the time wave.
00:16:05.000 We were motivated to go in 1971, basically by our interest and fascination with DMT. I mean, that was what...
00:16:16.000 Got us going.
00:16:18.000 Because we had encountered DMT in the Haight and in Berkeley in the 60s.
00:16:23.000 It was very rare.
00:16:25.000 You know, extremely not on the streets or anything.
00:16:29.000 It was hard to come by, but we had come by it.
00:16:34.000 I had the experience of it and thought, holy Christ, you know, there is nothing else more interesting than this that we've ever encountered.
00:16:43.000 And so, you know, we were involved in all the political turmoil and anti-Vietnam War movements You know, free speech and all of that.
00:16:53.000 Terence was at Berkeley.
00:16:55.000 I wasn't particularly.
00:16:56.000 But we just thought, you know, none of that is relevant.
00:17:00.000 This is truly the most amazing thing that we've ever encountered.
00:17:07.000 Our original motivation to go to South America was because, as you know, the smoking of DMT is very short.
00:17:16.000 It's 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and you come back and you're like, what the hell was that? 0.99
00:17:23.000 What the fuck was that? 0.95
00:17:24.000 You can't bring back much from it other than just an overwhelming impression of awe and amazement and that you've looked into some other world that's more... 0.99
00:17:36.000 Bizarre than anything you've ever seen encountered.
00:17:40.000 So we thought if we could find an orally active form of this DMT, that it would last longer.
00:17:47.000 That was a simple rationale.
00:17:48.000 It would last longer and we could kind of get our sea legs there and figure out what was going on.
00:17:55.000 That's a hilarious expression for DMT. Get your sea legs?
00:17:58.000 Get your sea legs, right.
00:18:00.000 Just spend a little more time.
00:18:03.000 And so we read about this very obscure...
00:18:09.000 A drug prepared from a species of tree in South America is called varolas and Schultes, the famous ethnobotanist from Harvard, published a paper in 1970 called Varola as an Orally Active Hallucinogen.
00:18:27.000 Now, varola is normally used as a snuff in South America.
00:18:31.000 I mean, the certain tribes, the Yanomamo and other tribes, Extract the sap, they dry it down, they make a snuff out of it. 0.99
00:18:39.000 But there were a couple of tribes that made an oral preparation from it.
00:18:44.000 So that attracted our attention, and we decided to go to South America and look for, you know, this Witoto drug called Ukuhe, or something like that, Ukuhe.
00:18:58.000 And it happened to be that the ancestral home of the Witoto was at La Chirera. 0.95
00:19:04.000 That's what led us to go to La Chirera originally, right, was the search for this drug that...
00:19:09.000 No one ever heard of, except us and Ari Schultes.
00:19:14.000 And so we went there, looking for that, and...
00:19:23.000 Well, at the time, nobody knew much about ayahuasca.
00:19:27.000 I mean, ayahuasca is also an orally active form of DMT, but we didn't know that at the time, and nobody did.
00:19:34.000 Maybe we can talk about that later.
00:19:36.000 But we went looking for ukuhe, right? 0.99
00:19:40.000 When we got to La Charrera, we found that The mission village that we set up, that we stayed at, the Mission La Torreira, had cleared pastures all around, about a couple hundred acres of pastures.
00:19:57.000 And they brought Cebu cattle into this place, the white humpback cattle. 0.99
00:20:02.000 Well, the shit, the dung of this cattle is the preferred... 1.00
00:20:06.000 I think? 1.00
00:20:26.000 Again, this was 1971. A lot of people hadn't had much experience with psilocybin mushrooms, but we knew from our references what this mushroom was.
00:20:36.000 We'd never taken it, but we thought, great, psilocybin mushrooms, wonderful.
00:20:41.000 So we were misled, right?
00:20:44.000 We thought that ukuhe was the real mystery. 1.00
00:20:48.000 That we were after.
00:20:50.000 It turns out psilocybin mushrooms were the real mystery, and psilocybin is in fact the perfect orally active form of DMT, right?
00:21:00.000 The psilocin, the active form of psilocybin, is just one atom different from DMT, and it's perfectly engineered for human metabolism.
00:21:11.000 It's non-toxic.
00:21:12.000 It's orally active.
00:21:13.000 It's easily, you know, excreted.
00:21:17.000 It's ideal.
00:21:18.000 It really is.
00:21:19.000 It's a perfect psychedelic in some ways.
00:21:21.000 So we thought, but at the time we thought we were after ukuhei.
00:21:27.000 So we thought, well, Okay, so these mushrooms are here.
00:21:32.000 This is great.
00:21:33.000 Well, we're waiting for the real mystery.
00:21:35.000 Well, we can eat these mushrooms.
00:21:37.000 Well, we started eating the mushrooms.
00:21:38.000 And pretty soon, things got very weird.
00:21:42.000 Because we were literally eating them every day.
00:21:45.000 And they were...
00:21:46.000 We just started having a lot of very interesting conversations, shall we say.
00:21:55.000 How many days did you do this for?
00:21:58.000 Oh...
00:22:00.000 You know, I mean, there wasn't that much to eat at La Chereur.
00:22:05.000 We had brought canned goods and rice and things like that, but we found that it was very easy to just kind of slip a few mushrooms into the soup, you know?
00:22:13.000 They didn't taste bad.
00:22:14.000 So probably for a week or ten days or so, we were pretty much taking mushrooms constantly.
00:22:20.000 Wow.
00:22:21.000 And it began to...
00:22:25.000 Suggest this experiment that we could do.
00:22:29.000 You know, it began...
00:22:30.000 It, the mushroom, or...
00:22:34.000 The intelligence that spoke through the mushroom, you know, it was never quite clear, but there was definitely, it was like having a very intelligent guest at your party, and, you know, you didn't see it, but you definitely were in touch with it.
00:22:50.000 And it began to suggest this experiment that we could do, I mean, this wild experiment, the experiment of La Charrera.
00:22:58.000 And, uh...
00:23:00.000 Uh...
00:23:04.000 I don't know how much detail you want to go into on this, but we performed this experiment, trying to get it back to the I Ching and the time wave thing.
00:23:13.000 We performed this experiment, which was something like...
00:23:16.000 Creating the philosopher's stone, essentially, out of our own DNA and the DNA of a mushroom and sound and light and singing to the mushroom and coming up, you know, creating these superconducting resonances and,
00:23:33.000 you know, I mean, crazy stuff.
00:23:37.000 You can read about it in the book, you know, but we had this idea that we could essentially...
00:23:45.000 I mean, I guess I should back up and explain it.
00:23:48.000 We had this idea that the sounds That you could hear on high doses of mushrooms.
00:23:54.000 I don't know if your experience with DMT, you hear things, right?
00:23:58.000 You often hear over-tonal sounds and the whole aural space is as interesting as the visual space in some ways.
00:24:06.000 Well, on high doses of mushrooms, that's similar as well.
00:24:10.000 And, you know, if you listen to these sounds, you can start to sort of try to imitate them and, you know, you can sing along with them or you can vocalize along with them.
00:24:21.000 And the attempts to vocalize them are generally not so good, they're hard to imitate, but you reach a certain point where you just lock on to it and then it just pours out of you in a very powerful way and in a way that it's like almost being possessed or something.
00:24:40.000 This sound energy just pours forth.
00:24:44.000 So the mushroom suggested to us a lot of ideas about what these sounds were and how they could actually set up molecular resonances in our own brains, our own DNA,
00:25:00.000 and the DNA of a mushroom, and that we could essentially...
00:25:07.000 Well, in some ways, create the ultimate object.
00:25:12.000 Create the ultimate artifact, which would be ourselves, our own minds in an externalized form.
00:25:21.000 In a physical form that you can carry around?
00:25:23.000 In a physical form that you could actually carry around.
00:25:25.000 It would be a binding of space-time.
00:25:29.000 And it would be, I know this is crazy stuff!
00:25:32.000 That is the highest you can get.
00:25:34.000 I think that's as high as a human can get.
00:25:35.000 Well, if you could have this thing.
00:25:38.000 So we have this theory about how to induce this sound.
00:25:46.000 Generate this object.
00:25:48.000 Not only generate this, but fix it.
00:25:51.000 Like in alchemy, you fix mercury, you know?
00:25:54.000 I mean, that's the final step of alchemy, because this stuff was like mercury.
00:25:59.000 This was like mines.
00:26:00.000 It was the violet psycho-fluid, we called it.
00:26:04.000 And this was a shared vision between the both of you?
00:26:07.000 This was a shared ideational vision, in a certain sense.
00:26:12.000 How was it coming to you?
00:26:14.000 It was, the mushroom was, you know, the mushroom or whoever was communicating through the mushrooms was just matter-of-factly sort of wrapping this down.
00:26:26.000 And, you know, we were receptive to it and it was like we're writing furiously and it's like we developed this experiment, this idea, which had a whole lot of predictions.
00:26:37.000 I mean, crazy predictions that, yeah, you would actually have, at the end of the day, Or the night, more accurately, you would have a physical object that would be outside the body, but it would be you.
00:26:53.000 And it turns out there's all sorts of precedent for this, right?
00:26:58.000 I mean, the idea of the alchemist's stone, the philosopher's stone, or...
00:27:03.000 The time machine, the flying saucer, the alchemist scrying mirror that you can look into and see the future.
00:27:13.000 I mean, this idea haunts The human imagination.
00:27:17.000 That there is a way you can externalize the imagination and still be it.
00:27:26.000 And this thing that you would have, or whatever it was, would be responsive to your imagination.
00:27:32.000 And it would be able to do literally whatever you could imagine.
00:27:36.000 That's sort of an alternate theory on UFOs, isn't it, as well, that the imagination actually can conjure up a physical object?
00:27:44.000 Yeah, exactly.
00:27:47.000 That's what we're saying.
00:27:48.000 And even Jung speculated about that.
00:27:51.000 That's right.
00:27:52.000 So, you know, I mean, I know this sounds crazy.
00:27:55.000 Forty years later, it sounds crazy.
00:27:58.000 Crazy to me, too.
00:27:59.000 But at the time, it's like, this is what's going down.
00:28:04.000 Right, right, right.
00:28:05.000 And you both agreed to it.
00:28:06.000 That's what's even crazier.
00:28:07.000 We both agreed to it, and we made predictions about what would happen, right?
00:28:11.000 When we did this experiment, this is what will happen.
00:28:15.000 And the predictions were such that They couldn't possibly happen, because, you know, this is absurd.
00:28:23.000 You can't create, you can't externalize the mind in this way.
00:28:27.000 But we made predictions, and when those didn't happen, a bunch of other interesting things happened instead.
00:28:34.000 We had literally painted ourselves into a conceptual corner where something happened to, had to give.
00:28:41.000 And so we both went into a prolonged altered state for like 14 days.
00:28:46.000 I was smeared across the cosmos, literally.
00:28:52.000 I hearken back to a recent period when I had smoked DMT and my entire mind was co-contiguous with the boundaries of space-time.
00:29:06.000 Terence became complimentary to that.
00:29:11.000 He became extremely hyper-vigilant and very focused on our place and being like the anchor.
00:29:21.000 Like if I was out there in the cosmos, he was the beacon that was bringing me home.
00:29:26.000 And our companions These poor people thought that we were completely nuts, and they were not participating in this.
00:29:37.000 These are the locals?
00:29:38.000 No, no.
00:29:39.000 The two people that we'd gone with, it was like they had stepped back from it.
00:29:45.000 So they were sober?
00:29:46.000 Oh, well, yeah.
00:29:48.000 Oh, that must have been so strange.
00:29:50.000 But we were like, oh, it was very strange for them.
00:29:52.000 It must have been strange for you, too.
00:29:54.000 It was strange for us, too.
00:29:55.000 You guys being...
00:29:56.000 But we were making sense to each other.
00:29:59.000 And there's actually a term in this for psychology.
00:30:03.000 In psychology, it's called the folia du.
00:30:06.000 It's the folly of two.
00:30:09.000 Simultaneous...
00:30:10.000 You know, psychosis, essentially.
00:30:13.000 But it wasn't a psychosis.
00:30:15.000 That's the thing.
00:30:16.000 People have to understand.
00:30:17.000 It wasn't a psychosis.
00:30:18.000 If anything, it was closer to a shamanic I mean, the motifs of shamanic initiation more than the motifs of psychosis fit what went on.
00:30:31.000 We were transformed, and we were transformed in a complementary way.
00:30:36.000 And we also reintegrated, more or less, you know, so that, I mean, I'm fairly functional now.
00:30:45.000 I don't know that I've ever totally reintegrated, but you know what I mean.
00:30:48.000 It wasn't a Shamanic initiation is where you go through this metamorphosis, and things are done to you, and you're torn apart, and you're changed, but then you're put back together in a different form.
00:31:01.000 And that's really what happened.
00:31:03.000 But I wasn't put back together as the superconducting, Bionic creature with access to all information and all space and time.
00:31:17.000 That didn't happen.
00:31:19.000 You know, and so...
00:31:22.000 To try to bring this around to wither the time wave.
00:31:26.000 The time wave came about because Terence was in this hypervigilant state where he didn't sleep for 14 days.
00:31:37.000 He was watching over me, for one thing, because I tended to wander off and I was completely...
00:31:45.000 Three sheets to the wind, literally.
00:31:47.000 And off in this cosmic fantasy world.
00:31:51.000 But he was very focused.
00:31:52.000 But he started making charts of time.
00:31:58.000 He was trying to predict...
00:32:01.000 We had done this experiment and we had predicted that the stone would condense in this physical form.
00:32:09.000 And at the end of the experiment, that didn't happen.
00:32:12.000 But we were getting the message that...
00:32:16.000 We did everything right.
00:32:17.000 It's just your timing that's off.
00:32:19.000 And it will come, right?
00:32:22.000 The stone will condense at some points.
00:32:25.000 But so it became this whole game sort of of trying to predict when will the stone condense.
00:32:32.000 And so Terence began charting our course, you know, and he found like he was...
00:32:39.000 He counted back 64 days, two times 64 days to the...
00:32:46.000 From the date of the experiment and it turns out that was the date of our mother's death, the previous October, right?
00:32:54.000 And then he started counting forward from that date several cycles of 64 and it turns out that was his birthday in 1971. So that became a sort of focus for predicting when it would condense.
00:33:09.000 That course came and went.
00:33:11.000 So over the years he tried to I guess fine-tune this prediction, fine-tune this, and that's what the whole elaborate time-wave theory grew out of.
00:33:24.000 If there was an alien artifact that was given to us by this experiment, then it was this.
00:33:33.000 It was this mathematical construction, which wasn't given to me, it was given to him.
00:33:39.000 What was given to me were I mean, the experience of being smeared over the cosmos and then gradually over 14 days basically condensing myself back into a body.
00:33:54.000 Were you eating?
00:33:56.000 Was I eating?
00:33:57.000 I don't know.
00:34:00.000 I guess.
00:34:01.000 Somebody was feeding me.
00:34:02.000 I mean, I wasn't doing those things.
00:34:05.000 Someone must have fed me.
00:34:07.000 Do you remember going to the bathroom?
00:34:09.000 I don't, but you know what I remember?
00:34:11.000 I remember that I was in hyperspace.
00:34:14.000 I was co-contiguous.
00:34:17.000 I shared topology with everyone. 1.00
00:34:20.000 So if I wanted to take a shit, for example, I would ask my friend to take a shit. 0.99
00:34:31.000 I could eliminate that way because our topologies were joined. 1.00
00:34:36.000 Or if I wanted to smoke a cigarette, I'd ask Vanessa to smoke a cigarette. 0.99
00:34:43.000 All those kind of crazy things.
00:34:45.000 Ask me to smoke a cigarette for you, please.
00:34:48.000 Right.
00:34:51.000 I mean, I know this sounds crazy.
00:34:53.000 I shouldn't even be talking about it in public.
00:34:55.000 No, no, you should.
00:34:58.000 Do you subscribe to the idea that these ancient cultures like the Mayans and these people that have these incredible structures, that very likely this was psilocybin-induced or their culture was psilocybin-induced?
00:35:13.000 Well, yeah, I do.
00:35:14.000 I think there's a good chance that it was.
00:35:17.000 I mean, I think that that wasn't the only, that certainly wasn't the only infeogen that the Mayans knew about, but that was an important one. 0.50
00:35:26.000 What else did they know about?
00:35:27.000 Well, they knew about a lot.
00:35:29.000 They knew about You know, they knew about all the Central American ones, the Morning Glories, Olaliuki, the, you know, probably Salvia, probably all of those.
00:35:40.000 But the Mayans definitely knew about mushrooms.
00:35:43.000 And I think it's likely that mushrooms, you know, I mean, if you talk about the stoned ape theory, you know, which you've talked about and Terence has talked about, it's most likely mushrooms, you know, because mushrooms are,
00:36:01.000 It's pan-global.
00:36:02.000 They're found in every climate.
00:36:05.000 You know, if it's tropics, it's psilocybe cubensis.
00:36:09.000 If it's temperate, it's psilocybe semilanciata.
00:36:12.000 But these things are all over the place.
00:36:14.000 They're potent.
00:36:15.000 They don't require any preparation, right?
00:36:18.000 No technology needed other than the curiosity to bend over, pick it up, and munch it.
00:36:26.000 And once you do that, then the impact had to be profound.
00:36:32.000 And we're talking about omnivorous primates here who are hungry all the time, very acutely You know, keyed into their environment, I mean, it's not like they're going to overlook this, right?
00:36:46.000 So they'll see it, and they'll eat it.
00:36:48.000 And they test things, and they're omnivores.
00:36:50.000 Exactly, exactly.
00:36:51.000 They're omnivores, and they test things.
00:36:53.000 And so they test this, and then they get the message.
00:36:59.000 And I think that, you know, In the stoned ape theory, there are things that are puzzling to me that I totally don't completely understand.
00:37:14.000 If you look at the archaeological evidence for the critical period when consciousness emerged in our species, Except for a couple of indications that go way back, like half a million years.
00:37:30.000 But, you know, the efflorescence of artistic expression, which is really the only way you can tell, happened sometime between 100,000 years ago and 8,000 years ago.
00:37:41.000 You know, you look at the cave paintings and some of the oldest ones, the Blombos Cave in South Africa goes 80,000 years.
00:37:50.000 Those artifacts were clearly done by conscious beings with an artistic sense.
00:37:56.000 So if that equates to cognition, then clearly consciousness was happening somewhere after 100,000 years.
00:38:13.000 Up until now, presumably, you know, consciousness was happening.
00:38:17.000 But if you look at the fossil record, the neurologically modern brain was much older than that, you know?
00:38:26.000 I mean, essentially, You know, at least 100,000, maybe 200,000 years older than this emergence of consciousness.
00:38:35.000 You know, the neurologically modern brain with all the apparatus needed to generate language, right?
00:38:42.000 And it's all about language.
00:38:43.000 And it's about making this connection between sound, image, and symbol.
00:38:52.000 You know, meaningful symbol.
00:38:53.000 And I've argued in...
00:38:56.000 A lot of lectures and so on.
00:38:58.000 I mean, my shtick, if you will, that what this amounts to is synesthesia, right?
00:39:05.000 Synesthesia being the translation of one sensory mode to another.
00:39:10.000 Well, like psychedelics do, right?
00:39:14.000 Reliably induce synesthesia, where you can hear colors and see sounds.
00:39:19.000 That's the most trivial aspect of it.
00:39:23.000 Most people can't do that without psychedelics, but some can.
00:39:28.000 Some people are genetically synesthetic, and their experience of meaning and language is very different.
00:39:38.000 It's interesting that synesthesia in genetically synesthetic people is often associated with language and number.
00:39:48.000 So they'll say crazy sounding stuff like, you know, the letter C is hard and chrome colored.
00:39:58.000 And they're speaking in the abstract, but this is an actual perception for them.
00:40:04.000 Or they'll talk about the personality of the number nine.
00:40:11.000 Whoa.
00:40:13.000 Crazy stuff, right?
00:40:14.000 Are they functional, these kind of synonym people?
00:40:16.000 Many of them are brilliant.
00:40:18.000 Yes, they're totally functional.
00:40:19.000 So they're seeing all this around them all the time, but they can still manage their way to move through it?
00:40:26.000 Yeah.
00:40:26.000 So they're essentially walking through a living mushroom trip?
00:40:30.000 Yeah, kind of in a sense.
00:40:32.000 I mean, I think they are aware of their sort of cognitive environment, if you want to put it that way, The same one that we inhabit, but a lot of this stuff goes into the background for us,
00:40:47.000 right?
00:40:47.000 Unless we take a psychedelic or something like that, and then it comes out into the foreground.
00:40:53.000 It goes on in the background.
00:40:55.000 That's essentially what I'm saying.
00:40:57.000 The process of understanding language is a process of synesthesia.
00:41:02.000 That we're not even aware of.
00:41:04.000 We live in a world in which abstractions and symbols are as real as anything in the outside world.
00:41:18.000 We live in a world in which symbols have significance, and that is the basis of language, our ability to perceive meaning.
00:41:28.000 And it's based on this sort of unconscious synesthesia, which we do all the time.
00:41:43.000 With respect to the evolution of the primate brain, what I think I'm postulating is that something like mushrooms were able to We're good to go.
00:42:13.000 And ROQs, but it made the essential connection to significance, the feeling of significance.
00:42:21.000 Am I making any sense?
00:42:23.000 Yes, absolutely.
00:42:24.000 So that's the mechanism involved of taking an intelligent thinking lower primate and turning it into a human being.
00:42:32.000 Right, exactly.
00:42:33.000 Do you ever want to take a chimp and give it a lot of mushrooms and see what happens? 1.00
00:42:37.000 Well, yes, of course.
00:42:41.000 My God, that's all I'd want to do.
00:42:43.000 Right.
00:42:44.000 I just feel like there's got to be something to that.
00:42:46.000 Right, but it doesn't happen abruptly.
00:42:48.000 It happens over time.
00:42:50.000 Right, but just have a whole farm. 0.99
00:42:52.000 Well, yeah.
00:42:54.000 But again, I mean, there are other things going on.
00:42:56.000 There are, you know...
00:43:00.000 I don't know if it's a...
00:43:01.000 Primatological factors.
00:43:02.000 Primatological factors, maternal inheritance factors, you know, I mean, this is a whole other area of...
00:43:08.000 We didn't even really describe the theory for people who don't know what the higher primate theory is, or excuse me, that's why, that's his t-shirt here.
00:43:18.000 The stone dape theory is that Psilocybin mushrooms, or psychedelic mushrooms, were responsible for creating human beings.
00:43:27.000 And one of Terence's assertions was that the doubling of the human brain size occurred over a period of about two million years.
00:43:36.000 And that this correlates to the timeline of these rainforests receding into grasslands, and then these monkey apes experimenting with different food sources. 0.99
00:43:50.000 Does that stuff all jive with core samples and climate studies?
00:43:55.000 Is all that stuff the same time with the human brain size doubled?
00:43:59.000 Is that all legit?
00:44:01.000 Well, yeah.
00:44:02.000 It's pretty much legit.
00:44:03.000 I mean, we know that there were...
00:44:05.000 I don't think you could put your finger on any one factor and say this was responsible for the expansion of the human brain, but definitely the...
00:44:14.000 You know, transition from arboreal to plane-type existence, existence on the Serengeti, was a time of incredible environmental stress for these primates.
00:44:30.000 And for the whole environment, they had to adapt.
00:44:33.000 And they had to, you know, learn a whole new diet, a whole new mode of existence.
00:44:40.000 And it's not clear the time frame that this took place over.
00:44:44.000 But I think that...
00:44:46.000 And it's not clear how much of it just happened.
00:44:50.000 I mean, it's not clear that this necessarily triggered consciousness, but it certainly...
00:44:55.000 It triggered adaptations in these primates that they were forced into, so that perhaps got them ready when the time came.
00:45:07.000 That's the part that's difficult to predict or nail down.
00:45:12.000 How long, how far back Were these mushrooms used?
00:45:17.000 You know, was it a transient thing?
00:45:19.000 Or did the climate change?
00:45:24.000 You know, was there a point around 100,000 years ago where the climate in that area got much wetter and suddenly these things became more common?
00:45:34.000 Or were they always there?
00:45:36.000 And, you know, it's just difficult.
00:45:38.000 But I think one of the characteristics that we do know about psychedelics is that they can induce this feeling of what's been called portentousness, right?
00:45:52.000 The feeling of a feeling that an experience, something is significant.
00:45:58.000 It's a feeling of reverence or awe or, you know, All of those things that we associate with religious sensibilities.
00:46:07.000 It's not that psychedelics...
00:46:10.000 There are religions that have been founded around psychedelics.
00:46:15.000 Obviously the mushroom cults and all of these things.
00:46:18.000 But psychedelics are not a religion.
00:46:20.000 They are, in a sense, the religion.
00:46:23.000 Or they hit those parts of our brain that are capable of having religious responses in some way.
00:46:33.000 And so when you get that going, then you have these primates with a sense of being...
00:46:45.000 In touch with some, you know, in touch with some transcendent other that is more significant than themselves that they feel longing for.
00:46:57.000 And I think that's the religious sensibility and that's also what drives our species forward.
00:47:04.000 You know, is this longing to know the unknown, essentially.
00:47:10.000 You know, I mean...
00:47:11.000 Terence talked about, and actually Rudolf Otto talked about, that the psychedelics are a mysterium tremendum, right?
00:47:21.000 Rudolf Otto talked about this.
00:47:22.000 They are a tremendous mystery that is terrifying and fascinating at the same time.
00:47:33.000 This has been the continuing carrot that's pulled our species forward.
00:47:39.000 In my lectures, I sometimes liken them to the idea of the monolith in 2001. Kubrick tried to concretize that idea, the idea of the monolith, something that's utterly alien, totally incomprehensible,
00:47:55.000 completely terrifying.
00:47:57.000 And fascinating, right?
00:47:59.000 They can't take their eyes off of it, and it inserts itself into history or evolution at critical junctures.
00:48:09.000 It just shows up, you know, and things happen.
00:48:13.000 And I'm saying we don't need to invoke the monolith because that's what the psychedelics in nature are, you know, our own built-in monolith, you know, built into the biosphere.
00:48:26.000 Do you find it frustrating that that's not considered by The standard people of science when they discuss theories of evolution.
00:48:37.000 It's really strange to me how they factor it out.
00:48:41.000 It's weird how there's obviously a bunch of different factors.
00:48:45.000 Cooking meat, the throwing arm, there's a lot of different factors.
00:48:50.000 But why would they not consider that as well?
00:48:54.000 That's always been really confusing to me and the only thing that makes sense is that they haven't done it.
00:48:59.000 There you go.
00:49:00.000 You just said it.
00:49:01.000 I mean, even, you know, Graham Hancock talks about this, the person that wrote...
00:49:11.000 This very interesting book about the cave paintings.
00:49:16.000 The Mind and the Brain is the name of the book.
00:49:19.000 I forget the author at the moment.
00:49:21.000 But this very well respected South African scholar who wrote a book about how altered states in You know, shamanic rituals carried out in the dark or in the almost total darkness in these caves.
00:49:37.000 That's what the cave paintings were about.
00:49:39.000 These things were painted by people in highly altered states doing shamanic ceremonies.
00:49:46.000 But even the guy who wrote the book will not take mushrooms.
00:49:51.000 You know, Graham Hancock...
00:49:53.000 Attempted to get him to.
00:49:54.000 I mean, he wrote about his work with great enthusiasm and admiration and said, you know, if you want to confirm your theory, this is what you do.
00:50:05.000 Why is it that if he did do it, though, if he did do it publicly, it would hurt him in an academic sense.
00:50:12.000 Well, that's probably why he didn't do it.
00:50:16.000 But why would it hurt him?
00:50:17.000 I mean, it seems to me it would hurt him because drugs are verboten.
00:50:22.000 But in fact...
00:50:24.000 That is the honest thing to do as a scientist.
00:50:29.000 And I think if enough of the right people, you know, the people in this field actually would let themselves have this experience, I think the controversy would resolve itself.
00:50:41.000 Because those of us who have experienced it, it just seems obvious.
00:50:46.000 It just seems, it's very strange to me that it's not considered even as a factor at all when if you've had the impact, you've had the experience personally, you know the incredible impact that it has.
00:50:58.000 How could that not be considered in terms of Something that affects consciousness.
00:51:03.000 If you're talking about someone who has no science, someone who has no books to read, someone who has, you know, whatever language existed at the time, having a blowout psychedelic experience would be so staggeringly profound on the shaping of your vision of the world that it's weird that it's not considered.
00:51:22.000 And it's really a shame as far as the way the people that educate people in this world, whether it's in high school or whether it's in Universities or colleges that they personally are not aware and or have been educated by this experience because it's not what everybody thinks it is.
00:51:42.000 Everyone has this idea that it's escape from reality, you're running away from things, you're clouding things up with drugs and that because it's under this one blanket, this one blanket of description, drugs, It's really weird that it's not considered as a factor in the development of the human being.
00:52:00.000 No, well, exactly, because of the rubric it's put under.
00:52:05.000 I mean, people, it's one of these things that exists in the shadow, you know, it's in the shadow and the reason it's in the shadow Is because it is a true mystery.
00:52:18.000 And true mysteries are freighted with numinosity, right?
00:52:22.000 With the numinous.
00:52:23.000 And, you know, I mean, despite the lip service that the church pays to all this stuff, I mean, the main mission of the church is to...
00:52:33.000 Ensure that people do not have genuine religious experiences, right? 0.96
00:52:38.000 I mean, that's the most dangerous thing to the church that there could possibly be if someone bypasses all the priests and the whole, you know, hierarchical structure and just goes out and talks to God.
00:52:51.000 Well, God's gonna give you a different message than the priests are giving you, I tell you.
00:52:56.000 You know, that's dangerous.
00:52:58.000 It's dangerous.
00:52:59.000 What did you think of John Marco Allegro's work, the sacred mushroom in the cross, his assertion that, for the folks who don't know this one, just a brief one, he was a scholar who was an ordained minister who became a theologian.
00:53:14.000 As he was studying theology, he became agnostic and reviewed, according to him, the Dead Sea Scrolls and believed at the end of 14 years of studying it that it was essentially The entire Christian religion was about psychedelic mushroom use and fertility cults.
00:53:30.000 He wrote this book called The Sacred Mushroom on the Cross.
00:53:34.000 His assertion is that Jesus actually was a mushroom.
00:53:39.000 Well, I don't know if Jesus was a mushroom, but I do think that Allegro was a serious scholar, and I think it's a shame that he was vilified the way he was, because he was a philologist, right?
00:53:53.000 He was a specialist in these Aramaic languages.
00:53:57.000 He was one of the people appointed, one of the scholars appointed to the translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
00:54:06.000 And he was incidentally, apparently, according to Andy Redovit and people like that, he was the only one who wasn't a priest on this committee, for one thing.
00:54:16.000 So he was immediately sort of outside the officially approved circles.
00:54:22.000 I think to the...
00:54:24.000 I'm not a philologist, but I think to the extent that...
00:54:28.000 I mean, you know, so I'm not really qualified to interpret...
00:54:33.000 Whether his scholarship was together or not, he was well enough qualified to be appointed to this translation committee, so he must have had something going for himself.
00:54:46.000 And when, as his account is, he says, honestly, you know, when I reviewed all this stuff and began to put two and two together, it seemed that there were all these allusions to fungi.
00:55:01.000 And, you know, to mushrooms.
00:55:03.000 And I didn't come to this with this agenda.
00:55:07.000 That's what's in here.
00:55:08.000 And he was a straight guy, too.
00:55:10.000 He was a straight guy.
00:55:11.000 Yeah, he was a straight guy.
00:55:12.000 So I think that he was a good example of an honest scholar who...
00:55:19.000 Honestly reported what he found and his message was unacceptable.
00:55:24.000 And so the establishment, the powers that be, the higher authorities, decided basically he had to be destroyed.
00:55:34.000 And he was.
00:55:35.000 His reputation was thoroughly trashed.
00:55:40.000 Now, is it true?
00:55:41.000 I mean...
00:55:42.000 Was Jesus a mushroom?
00:55:44.000 Did they use Amanita muscari or some other mushrooms?
00:55:47.000 I think it's likely.
00:55:49.000 We know that the Gnostics, which is the pre-Christian or quasi-Christian group that wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, out of which Christianity supposedly I mean,
00:56:17.000 the God of the Bible of Genesis was seen in Gnosticism as an evil entity, right?
00:56:25.000 Because it was keeping humanity imprisoned in the world of matter.
00:56:30.000 When the soul longed to be liberated into the light and all that.
00:56:36.000 So that was his view of this whole thing.
00:56:40.000 Not Allegro's view, but that was the view of Gnosticism.
00:56:43.000 That's a pretty psychedelic vision right there.
00:56:47.000 It wouldn't surprise me at all if this group was using either Amanita muscaria and or some kind of psilocybin mushrooms.
00:57:10.000 Mm-hmm.
00:57:14.000 Yeah.
00:57:14.000 Wow.
00:57:16.000 I mean, that's a heavy one.
00:57:19.000 Yeah.
00:57:20.000 Especially for a guy who's not doing drugs.
00:57:22.000 Yes.
00:57:23.000 Yes.
00:57:24.000 A straight academic, this is what I got.
00:57:27.000 Right.
00:57:28.000 This is what he had.
00:57:29.000 And he had to be discredited because that wasn't the message that, you know...
00:57:36.000 But, you know, should we be surprised?
00:57:39.000 I mean, the Church has been suppressing stuff, you know, for years.
00:57:43.000 I mean, look at the Bible.
00:57:45.000 The Bible is a very select compendium of Gospels, but there's a lot of material that never made the cut, as we know.
00:57:54.000 It's weird that, to me, that with the incredible power that the psychedelic mushrooms must have had on ancient people.
00:58:02.000 We know people have been taking them for a long time.
00:58:04.000 We know for sure they existed.
00:58:07.000 How are they not being used all throughout these religions today?
00:58:13.000 How did all the different intellectual societies of this world lose touch with perhaps the very thing that gave us our initial intellectual curiosity?
00:58:23.000 How did that happen?
00:58:24.000 How could it happen that at the highest levels of learning, which is where we're at in 2012, if you follow a linear timeline, this is as advanced as we've ever been.
00:58:34.000 So if that is the case, how is it possible that it's removed from CNN and the New York Times?
00:58:42.000 It's not something that's being not just a once in a blue moon John Hopkins study which shows that it improves your personality, but some legitimate consideration to that it might have been a factor in why we're here.
00:58:54.000 And one of the reasons why we're so fucked up, one of the reasons why our society is so crazy is because we're detached from One of the very things that might have created this human being in the first place.
00:59:05.000 That seems to me to be something that should be considered. 0.98
00:59:09.000 It seems to me like if you look at all the other factors like eating meat and the throwing arm and figuring out complex problems and hunting and all the things that could have happened, how could you not?
00:59:21.000 Be looking really closely at this one mushroom that makes you see incredible visions, explore realms that seem realer than this reality that we live in right now.
00:59:35.000 The only reason is because either you haven't experienced it or you have experienced it and you're terrified and you're trying to Keep everyone else from it.
00:59:44.000 Those are the only two.
00:59:46.000 How is it possible?
00:59:47.000 I think it's more the latter.
00:59:50.000 What we have to understand, the proper venue, if you will, or the proper human institution to kind of be the steward of this mystery, it's a real mystery, right?
01:00:04.000 Even though we understand a lot about the neuroscience, we can talk about neurochemistry and receptors and all that, that does not make the connection or cross the bridge between what we experience when we take it.
01:00:17.000 We know all about the underlying neurophysiology of it, but it still doesn't bridge the gap to what we actually experience.
01:00:27.000 So it's important.
01:00:28.000 So I say it remains a mystery, as does the very...
01:00:33.000 You know, conundrum of consciousness.
01:00:35.000 You know, how does the brain-mind generate or experience consciousness?
01:00:39.000 But, you know, it is a genuine mystery and Human institutions and properly should be the province of religion, but religions don't serve that anymore.
01:00:53.000 Religions are political institutions, right?
01:00:56.000 I mean, if they have a real mystery, they want to put it in a box and put it over here someplace and keep people from it, you know?
01:01:04.000 Because that gets in the way of promulgating the doctrine, and the doctrine is, you know, toe the line, don't ask too many questions, have faith, right?
01:01:14.000 You must have faith, which generally means, which means essentially you have to believe a lot of stuff we tell you for which there's no evidence.
01:01:23.000 That's another part of the map.
01:01:23.000 You believe it because we tell you to believe it.
01:01:26.000 So have faith, don't ask too many questions, you know, and basically toe the line.
01:01:33.000 So they're political institutions, religions are.
01:01:38.000 They're into bludgeoning people. 0.73
01:01:40.000 Into a certain mode of behavior.
01:01:44.000 And they work in conjunction now in our culture with governments and corporations.
01:01:50.000 And to have people, you know, taking mushrooms and having all these funny ideas and questioning the status quo, this is not, this doesn't serve the agenda, you know.
01:02:02.000 But how many people who are making the agenda, how many people really truly have had the experience?
01:02:07.000 Few!
01:02:08.000 Very few.
01:02:08.000 So is it...
01:02:09.000 Is it that they don't want these people having it and thinking about things and coming up with new solutions and trying to reshape society?
01:02:18.000 Or is it complete ignorance and just trying to suppress it because it's in their best financial interests?
01:02:25.000 Well, that's really hard to know.
01:02:28.000 I mean, whether they do it out of ignorance or whether there's a more sinister agenda.
01:02:33.000 Which is, you know, perhaps some of them have had this experience and realize that for people to be having these types of experiences is a threat to the status quo.
01:02:45.000 Because exactly as you say, it motivates us to change the way we are, to change the way we relate to the world, you know, and we're no longer good people.
01:03:00.000 I think it's ironic, just in a way, back in the 60s, DMT used to be called the businessman's trip.
01:03:08.000 The idea was you could smoke it on your lunch hour and get back to work after your lunch hour, except that after you smoked DMT. Who would even want to go back to your cubicle?
01:03:20.000 So they're inherently subversive in the sense that they encourage people to take personal responsibility for themselves and think for themselves.
01:03:33.000 Thinking for oneself is a discouraged activity these days.
01:03:38.000 There's also the issue of a lack of guidance in this country, especially when it comes to these different things because of the fact that they're illegal.
01:03:47.000 There's a lot of misinformation.
01:03:48.000 Right.
01:03:48.000 There's a lot of misinformation.
01:03:50.000 People don't understand how to use them.
01:03:52.000 They don't understand where they're going to get them from.
01:03:55.000 It would be amazing if we had shamanic institutes where people would go and there would be someone who could literally guide you along.
01:04:07.000 I mean, if we were really An intelligent culture that trusted each other as grown adults with the ability to make choices and have educated choices.
01:04:17.000 Yeah.
01:04:18.000 It just seems like we're missing out.
01:04:21.000 Well, give it 20 years.
01:04:23.000 You think?
01:04:23.000 I do.
01:04:24.000 I think that despite all the resistance, that's probably where it's going.
01:04:28.000 And it will happen in a very...
01:04:31.000 I think that's a subtle way, and it won't attract a lot of attention.
01:04:35.000 But I think that, you know, until it's a done deal, in a sense, I think that what we're witnessing now is that with this psychedelic renaissance, you know, in the 60s and all that, that's all gone.
01:04:51.000 A lot of the hysteria has died down.
01:04:53.000 And now we're in a position to revisit this whole thing and take a second look in a calmer way.
01:05:01.000 And I think a lot of the research that you see happening is going to...
01:05:08.000 I mean, I know the institution I'm affiliated with in that respect is the Hefter Research Institute.
01:05:15.000 People should check that out, hefter.org, because most of the leading researchers in psychedelics are on our board, right, or either on our board or supported by Hefter to some degree.
01:05:31.000 But the work that people like Roland Griffiths are doing, there are other investigators, but he's well known, What he's doing is the way you open the door to the use of these things is two paths, either religious or medicine.
01:05:48.000 If you can find a legitimate medical use for psilocybin, then that changes everything because that means that the FDA can be pressured to change the scheduling of it.
01:06:02.000 Once the scheduling of it has changed, it's now Schedule 1, right?
01:06:06.000 And the first criterion of Schedule 1 is a dangerous drug with no possible medical use.
01:06:12.000 Well, if you do good, rigorous science and you do several clinical studies, which is what they're doing with this psilocybin end-of-life kind of approach to it, helping people to come to terms With their impending death and deal with the anxiety and the spiritual crisis around that,
01:06:34.000 that's essentially what they're using.
01:06:37.000 But if you can show legitimately that it has a use in that respect, then you can change the regulatory framework.
01:06:47.000 You can actually get it Approved for that use.
01:06:51.000 Once it's approved for that use, you have to change the scheduling of it from Schedule 1 to probably Schedule 2. But then you open up the possibility of off-label uses, right, as with any drug.
01:07:06.000 And then therapists can start to use it.
01:07:09.000 And I think that you will see in 10 years, maybe, you will see Exactly that.
01:07:16.000 You will see institutes, places where you can go.
01:07:21.000 I mean, the next step is to say, well, if psilocybin can benefit dying people, maybe it can benefit well people.
01:07:27.000 Maybe it can help well people.
01:07:29.000 People who are not sick come to terms.
01:07:32.000 PTSD, another example, you know.
01:07:36.000 But just spiritual evolution, just a discipline, you know, which is what shamanism is.
01:07:44.000 People have to go to South America now to find this stuff.
01:07:47.000 And they do, and a lot of them go there because they're not finding any spiritual satisfaction in our own institutions.
01:07:57.000 So what we have to do is create our own institutions that are not copies of South American shamanism, but our own neo-shamanism, in a sense, that borrows from these different traditions.
01:08:12.000 But that works for us.
01:08:13.000 It works in our culture.
01:08:15.000 Do you see the lack of changing of the classification of marijuana?
01:08:19.000 It's still Schedule I, despite all the evidence that there's medical uses for that.
01:08:23.000 Do you find that as discouraging?
01:08:25.000 And if anybody hears that noise, that's dentists playing with Velcro.
01:08:28.000 Don't get mad at us and say there's some static electricity, because people will get mad and send like a hundred Twitter messages. 1.00
01:08:35.000 Bro, fix your shit! 0.99
01:08:36.000 I'm so sorry. 1.00
01:08:37.000 I'm a fiddler, what can I say?
01:08:43.000 No, don't worry about it.
01:08:44.000 But back to the question, do you see that the classification from marijuana, which still...
01:08:51.000 Despite all the evidence to the contrary, even some really interesting stuff about cancer.
01:08:57.000 All that Rick Simpson hemp seed oil, or I guess it's really hash oil, because it is psychoactive.
01:09:03.000 He calls it hemp oil, I guess maybe to make people feel better about it.
01:09:07.000 Whatever it is, the work that that guy's done, All the different studies have shown what it does for glaucoma patients, what it does for wasting syndrome, and people who have a hard time getting...
01:09:19.000 Why is there no change in the classification of that?
01:09:22.000 Because it seems like there's a good body of work that shows some medical uses for it.
01:09:26.000 Especially when you consider that cocaine is Schedule II. Right.
01:09:29.000 Cocaine is Schedule II because it has recognized medical use, right?
01:09:34.000 That's hilarious.
01:09:35.000 Well, yeah.
01:09:36.000 I mean, the...
01:09:38.000 The whole situation in a way is I think with respect to cannabis is is somehow different because it's so freighted with political considerations.
01:09:51.000 I mean that don't really plague the psychedelics to the same extent because even though we're immersed in this world of psychedelics and we think it's important we're still talking you know two three percent of the population at most if that even gives a shit about psychedelics marijuana is like sixty percent of the population so I just think you're seeing...
01:10:15.000 I mean, I don't know.
01:10:19.000 I think the pharmaceutical cartel in some ways is lined up against this because medical marijuana is potentially so useful for so many things that they're making money on right now by making drugs to treat them.
01:10:34.000 And if you look at their...
01:10:37.000 Research efforts, if you look at what's going on in the back room and they're not talking about, they're totally into cannabinoid chemistry, right?
01:10:45.000 I mean, they're developing all kinds of pharmaceuticals, but those are patentable compounds that they can own and produce synthetically and charge you a lot of money for.
01:10:56.000 So I think that pot is a threat to the I think the government is kind of deer in the headlights about it, you know, as the Obama administration's reaction to the latest legalization.
01:11:16.000 I mean, finally they're beginning to get their act together and say the right thing, which is, okay, apparently we'll just let this social experiment go forward and see where it goes, which is the right thing to do.
01:11:29.000 And I think if they do that, you'll see it evolve.
01:11:33.000 Other states will say, well, Washington and Colorado legalized pot.
01:11:37.000 They didn't collapse, and they're making a lot of money off taxes.
01:11:42.000 We want some of that.
01:11:44.000 We'll do that.
01:11:44.000 So I think you'll see it change over time.
01:11:47.000 I would agree with you, but look what Obama did in the first administration, his first years with the DEA. Yeah, I know.
01:11:54.000 The DEA busted a lot of pot clubs where he said he wasn't going to do that.
01:11:57.000 I know, I know.
01:11:58.000 He said he wasn't going to do that.
01:11:59.000 Well, it's even grosser what they do, what they actually do.
01:12:02.000 I know a bunch of people that have been busted.
01:12:05.000 They take all your money, they take all your pot, and then they say your case is pending and they do nothing.
01:12:09.000 They just rob you.
01:12:11.000 They essentially rob you and stop you from doing business and scare the shit out of you so you don't do it again.
01:12:16.000 But because you're not violating state law, they don't really pursue you. 0.54
01:12:21.000 They just steal from you and shut you down.
01:12:23.000 They just ruin you.
01:12:24.000 They just ruin you financially and every other way.
01:12:26.000 And physically because you're going to be freaking out because you're thinking you might have to go to jail because federally what happens is when you are not violating state law but you are violating federal law, when you go to trial they don't even let you use the term medical marijuana.
01:12:42.000 It's not allowed to be used in court.
01:12:44.000 It's inadmissible.
01:12:45.000 So there is no medical marijuana in the eyes of the federal government.
01:12:48.000 So you can't even defend yourself by telling the people in the jury that you were not in violation of a state law.
01:12:55.000 It's incredible.
01:12:57.000 And it's really a terrible crime on humanity.
01:13:00.000 I mean, that's really what it is.
01:13:02.000 And the government is essentially a criminal cartel in the way that they...
01:13:07.000 Handle that.
01:13:08.000 Unquestionably, you're putting people in jail that do not, not only do they not deserve to be in jail, they haven't done anything wrong.
01:13:15.000 They're providing people with something that they want and they're doing it according to a law.
01:13:19.000 It's a state law and that is a real sickness when people think that they're vindicated or justified in some way for locking those people in cages.
01:13:28.000 Those are the real criminals.
01:13:29.000 That's the real criminals in our society is the people that are locking people in jail for pot. 0.54
01:13:34.000 That's a real sickness.
01:13:36.000 And the hypocrisy is just so outstanding in everywhere, in every bar, in every drugstore, everywhere you go there's alcohol, and yet you're going to lock these people in a cage for doing something that's not nearly as bad.
01:13:49.000 That's insane.
01:13:51.000 Here's the thing.
01:13:52.000 Yes, everything you say is true.
01:13:54.000 But the thing is, the people see through this.
01:13:57.000 The fact that you could get this vote in Washington, Colorado, is a very hopeful thing.
01:14:03.000 If they will let it go forward, then over time they'll begin to see the benefits of that, in the sense that, exactly as you say, We're good to go.
01:14:35.000 Letting people smoke pot alleviates a lot of societal problems.
01:14:39.000 It won't eliminate them, but you'll see statistically significant reductions in a lot of the parameters.
01:14:47.000 Because we know that alcohol fuels violent behavior.
01:14:53.000 It fuels domestic violence, traffic accidents, all this stuff.
01:14:58.000 Those things will be reduced if people start smoking pot in place of that.
01:15:05.000 I guess I'm just disappointed in the fact that it's taken so long that I've become kind of cynical, the way the government approaches it, because it just seems so ridiculous at this point. 0.82
01:15:16.000 Well, it does seem ridiculous. 0.89
01:15:17.000 It's like the emperor has no clothes. 0.52
01:15:20.000 I mean it's like this policy has so long been in place and there's so much inertia behind it, right?
01:15:26.000 There's the whole law enforcement infrastructure, the DEA, the prison industrial complex, the – I mean so many things depend on – It's not just the drug cartels, and their profits go away,
01:15:42.000 but the whole governmental infrastructure to support the...
01:15:46.000 Prison guards unions.
01:15:47.000 Yeah, all of those things, they're enormously threatened.
01:15:50.000 They don't want things to change.
01:15:52.000 The last people who want to see pot legal is drug dealers. 0.54
01:15:56.000 Their profit margins go out the window.
01:15:58.000 I don't think they really lobby that much, though.
01:16:00.000 I don't think they're the issue.
01:16:01.000 No, they don't.
01:16:02.000 But you know what I mean.
01:16:03.000 And the government has a big investment in the current situation.
01:16:09.000 I feel, if anything, the one thing that's going to change everything is the internet.
01:16:13.000 It's just the access to information is so complete now that it's too hard to maintain ignorance.
01:16:20.000 Right.
01:16:20.000 And for people, for the government to maintain that marijuana has no medical application is just absurd.
01:16:29.000 I mean, it's just absurd.
01:16:30.000 Although they do everything they can to discourage research.
01:16:35.000 Out of one side of their mouth, they say, well, we want people to apply for grants and we encourage research, but then they make it impossible to get legitimate sources of cannabis to do the research.
01:16:47.000 So which is it?
01:16:50.000 So it's a bad situation.
01:16:53.000 But I would say this.
01:16:54.000 I would say that we have to remember, we have to take a longer term Sort of view of this, and we have to remind ourselves that we're witnessing a...
01:17:06.000 What is really going on here is a co-evolution, you know, between us and these plants.
01:17:13.000 And this has been going on for, we don't know how long, a hundred thousand years at least.
01:17:19.000 Cannabis is among those plants, right?
01:17:24.000 If you take a small slice of historical time and say, what is our current, you know, species relationship with these plants?
01:17:33.000 It doesn't look very good, you know, they're being suppressed and all that.
01:17:38.000 But it's a small slice of time.
01:17:39.000 In the end, the plants win, right?
01:17:42.000 Because this is what's going on.
01:17:44.000 The plants win.
01:17:46.000 You cannot eradicate cannabis from the face of the earth, much as they might want to, and they really don't want to.
01:17:54.000 You know, there's just a small group that are profiting from it being illegal and they would like to continue to do so.
01:18:01.000 They would like to continue, yeah.
01:18:02.000 And it will change.
01:18:03.000 It will change over time, you know.
01:18:06.000 I really think so.
01:18:07.000 Yeah, I guess, like I said, I think I'm frustrated by the fact that it's taken so long.
01:18:11.000 Yeah.
01:18:12.000 But that's also because...
01:18:13.000 And so many people have had to suffer needlessly, people that are in jail now who don't belong there.
01:18:20.000 There's a terrible case about a guy in Montana who was a grower who was following the state law, even had state law enforcement authorities on a regular basis come out to his grow houses and he showed them what he was doing.
01:18:31.000 He was providing for all these different patients in Montana and this guy's up for 80 years in jail.
01:18:37.000 He's up for more in jail than he would be if he killed somebody.
01:18:43.000 Jail is 25 to life for murder, and this guy is – it's 80 years is his potential sentence. 0.80
01:18:48.000 It's insane.
01:18:49.000 For growing some plants that the state approved – the state made a law.
01:18:53.000 They approved it.
01:18:54.000 He was there.
01:18:55.000 He brought the state people in.
01:18:57.000 They said, yep, everything's good.
01:18:59.000 Brought the state police in.
01:19:01.000 Yep, everything's good.
01:19:02.000 Okay, we're good?
01:19:02.000 Okay, we're good.
01:19:03.000 Let's grow some pot.
01:19:04.000 Grows the pot, gives it to all the sick people.
01:19:07.000 And now this poor guy is up for an 80-year stretch.
01:19:10.000 Right.
01:19:10.000 And then the DEA comes in.
01:19:12.000 Now, as a man of science, and you clearly are, how do you feel when you see, like, CNN and you see, like, Dr. Drew talking all this craziness on CNN about...
01:19:24.000 Withdrawal symptoms and withdrawal syndromes, he was saying, from cannabis use and about the cannabis today is so much stronger than it was when we were younger.
01:19:32.000 It's incredibly dangerous.
01:19:33.000 These words, incredibly dangerous.
01:19:36.000 It's like I hear this nonsense and I'm like, this is again a man who can't see describing a kaleidoscope. 1.00
01:19:43.000 This is a person who doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about. 0.99
01:19:47.000 A guy who's incredibly straight. 0.99
01:19:50.000 And he's describing something and it's always negative.
01:19:55.000 Ignore every artist.
01:19:57.000 Ignore every person who tells you it makes food taste better and makes sex feel better.
01:20:01.000 Ignore all that. 1.00
01:20:02.000 Ignore all these people that are quoting all these positive things and focus on what is most likely bullshit. 0.99
01:20:11.000 If you go by personal experience, like what we all know, if someone is having psychotic episodes because of marijuana, I have got to think they're going to have psychotic episodes anyway. 1.00
01:20:21.000 I got to think marijuana just got them there, but they were already fucked. 0.84
01:20:24.000 I mean, I would have to assume, just knowing my own personal experience with a drug. 0.84
01:20:29.000 When someone who hasn't had an experience with a drug and they're talking about it, it's maddening. 0.54
01:20:34.000 It's a crazy person talking.
01:20:36.000 It's like, where are your bodies?
01:20:37.000 Where are these numbers?
01:20:39.000 Well, these people are cultural icons who are paid to speak with authority.
01:20:47.000 Not just that, paid by the pharmaceutical companies.
01:20:49.000 Paid by the pharmaceutical companies, the media, everybody else to put out a certain meme, a certain message.
01:20:57.000 So you shouldn't be surprised.
01:20:59.000 Does it drive you crazy though?
01:21:05.000 I don't know if it drives me crazy.
01:21:07.000 Yeah, it does.
01:21:08.000 I mean, it drives me crazy, but I'm so old and cynical and jaded.
01:21:13.000 I mean, it doesn't surprise me at all.
01:21:19.000 I mean, I think the only solution is...
01:21:23.000 I'm not sure what the solution is.
01:21:25.000 The solution is to get...
01:21:27.000 The right word out to people somehow.
01:21:30.000 And that's what things like your program and other channels try to do.
01:21:36.000 I like to plug Arrowhead.
01:21:40.000 You probably know about Arrowhead.
01:21:42.000 Wonderful people who are doing a good job of bringing actual facts to the table.
01:21:50.000 And so we need more resources like that.
01:21:52.000 And they're not They're not pro- or anti-drug.
01:21:55.000 They're pro-fact.
01:21:56.000 Yes.
01:21:56.000 Which is what I admire about them.
01:21:59.000 Yes.
01:21:59.000 The trip reports are very helpful.
01:22:01.000 Very helpful.
01:22:02.000 And they will say, you know, the dangers are this.
01:22:06.000 You know, you need to be aware of these possible hazards.
01:22:11.000 And that's the only thing.
01:22:13.000 Education.
01:22:13.000 The only solution to this is just say no.
01:22:18.000 K-N-O-W. That's the thing. 1.00
01:22:22.000 And it's all about education.
01:22:24.000 You're missing out on some money.
01:22:26.000 I didn't invent it.
01:22:28.000 Whose quote is that?
01:22:30.000 I think it's Timothy Leary.
01:22:32.000 It should be online.
01:22:33.000 Someone should have a Cafe Press shirt ready to go.
01:22:35.000 I'll be able to get off on Amazon.com right after this and buy it.
01:22:38.000 The thing is...
01:22:42.000 It's really all about education.
01:22:44.000 It's about empowering people to make informed decisions about what kind of substances they're going to use, under what circumstances, what their intentions are.
01:22:54.000 There's a protocol.
01:22:55.000 There's a way to use these things in a positive way and a way to use them destructively.
01:23:02.000 I'm fond of, I mean, I always tell my students, there is no such thing as a bad drug.
01:23:10.000 Or a good drug.
01:23:11.000 They don't have moral qualities.
01:23:13.000 Human beings have moral qualities.
01:23:16.000 There are plenty of opportunities to misuse a drug or use a drug in a bad way.
01:23:22.000 That's not the drug's fault.
01:23:24.000 It simply has the pharmacological chemical properties that it has.
01:23:30.000 Poison isn't evil.
01:23:31.000 It's just poison.
01:23:31.000 It's all about how people use it.
01:23:33.000 It's human behavior is what we need to focus on and that's what drug education doesn't focus on.
01:23:40.000 It talks about the drugs almost as though they were demons or pathogens or like they had some kind of independent existence and they were an evil virus or something.
01:23:52.000 They are not.
01:23:53.000 It's the way people use them and what needs to happen with drug education They don't want to admit this, but here's the bald truth on it.
01:24:05.000 It's not about telling people, do not use drugs.
01:24:09.000 They say, that's got to be the message, and that's the only message.
01:24:13.000 True drug education has got to tell people how to use drugs.
01:24:20.000 That's the difference.
01:24:21.000 If you choose to use a psychoactive substance, then here's a way to use it.
01:24:29.000 Here's what you do to maximize the benefit of it and minimize the harm.
01:24:34.000 It's simply that simple.
01:24:36.000 But drug education, you can't institutionalize programs that are going to tell people how to use drugs.
01:24:44.000 Isn't that funny, though?
01:24:45.000 It's funny. 1.00
01:24:46.000 I mean, it's stupid. 1.00
01:24:47.000 We expect people to learn how to drive a car. 1.00
01:24:52.000 We encourage responsible drinking, whatever that is.
01:24:57.000 So in that one instant, we encourage responsible usage.
01:25:02.000 Not that people use it in a responsible way. 0.98
01:25:06.000 Well, I think we're big on people figuring out shit for themselves, which is why we send people out into the world essentially with almost no knowledge whatsoever about sex and love. 0.91
01:25:14.000 When you're young, you just sort of have to stumble into it at your most vulnerable and confused time. 0.99
01:25:20.000 Same issues apply to sex.
01:25:24.000 Sex education. 0.75
01:25:26.000 And drug education are jokes.
01:25:28.000 The way they're currently practiced.
01:25:32.000 That's a joke and what's also a joke is just the raising of human beings.
01:25:38.000 I think so many people in this country are being raised by people who are essentially children their entire life.
01:25:43.000 They never really did develop A true understanding of themselves or their place in the world or an objective sense of this whole thing and the great mystery of it all that's never conveyed and then they raise children. 0.98
01:25:56.000 The children have to somewhere or another wake up and go, okay, nobody knows what the fuck is really going on here. 0.65
01:26:01.000 We live in a world of madness and momentum, and it just continues in the same path, even though everyone knows it's crazy. 0.74
01:26:07.000 But can you imagine, I mean, how many people can step out of that framework?
01:26:13.000 You know, it's rare.
01:26:14.000 It's not enough time.
01:26:16.000 You know, if you grow up, if you're raised in a religious household, you know, especially a fundamentalist household, you're not encouraged to think about very much, right?
01:26:27.000 You're heavily discouraged.
01:26:32.000 This is what you need to believe, and all this other stuff is heresy, and you're condemned if you think about that.
01:26:41.000 So, I really, I mean...
01:26:45.000 Well, I don't know.
01:26:46.000 I mean, we could get off for another 40 minutes on anti-religious raves.
01:26:49.000 Don't just say it.
01:26:50.000 Just do it.
01:26:52.000 Don't say it.
01:26:54.000 It's ideologies.
01:26:56.000 Any ideologies.
01:26:57.000 The issue is when someone is thinking about what they should do and it's already written for them.
01:27:02.000 Subscribe to this.
01:27:03.000 Everybody's situation is different.
01:27:05.000 Everybody's life is different.
01:27:07.000 Your wants and needs are different.
01:27:09.000 And instead of all these different ideas of what we're supposed to do and not supposed to do and what is evil and what is good, We've lost the ability to figure out what kind of an impact what we're doing has on other people and judging that first and foremost.
01:27:25.000 And that, I think, is very much a religious and a psychedelic principle.
01:27:30.000 That idea, the idea of looking at everything as how it's affecting the other people around you first.
01:27:37.000 And if you did that, no one would ever impose that kind of restrictions on your children. 0.94
01:27:42.000 Because if you were truly looking at the development of the children, the first thing you'd say is, well, I don't want to fuck this kid up.
01:27:47.000 Right. 0.97
01:27:47.000 You know, instead of suppressing this kid and having this unbelievable resistance, which every goddamn human being has ever had, ever. 0.97
01:27:53.000 When you tell someone not to do something, they want to do it. 0.94
01:27:56.000 When you try to control them, they want to break free. 0.99
01:27:58.000 When you're a controlling person, they want to pierce their nose and go fucking crazy. 0.99
01:28:02.000 Right. 0.99
01:28:03.000 It's the same all throughout humanity.
01:28:05.000 So we should be able to figure that out by now.
01:28:09.000 Well...
01:28:10.000 Some have, and some do, but do you know, I mean, for you to be able to say that, to have that perception...
01:28:16.000 A million had to have it before me.
01:28:18.000 Well, and you have to be an exceptionally enlightened, open-minded person, you know.
01:28:24.000 Or a comedian.
01:28:25.000 Or a comedian, or someone, yeah, exactly, who pushes the envelope, right?
01:28:31.000 Who really...
01:28:32.000 Who makes a profession out of stepping out of the box or trying to look at things from, you know, a broader perspective.
01:28:39.000 But if you're a person who, you know, I mean, if you were raised in a strict religious household, chances are your children are going to be raised in that household and you never really look, you know, you never take the blinders off because you know there's all sorts of bad stuff out there and you just don't want to know about it. 0.98
01:28:59.000 And that's the problem.
01:29:03.000 The ideologies.
01:29:04.000 The problem is the predetermined patterns of thinking.
01:29:07.000 One of the things I like to say, I think psychedelics are extremely valuable With respect to, you know, sometimes I talk about faith.
01:29:19.000 One of the things that's interesting about psychedelics is they don't require faith, right?
01:29:24.000 I mean, religious belief, religious tenets are usually postulated on this idea that here's a whole bunch of things that you should believe, and there's not a shred of evidence for any of this, but you must have faith, my son, right?
01:29:37.000 That this is...
01:29:39.000 Well, why should you have faith?
01:29:41.000 You know, chances are it's a lie.
01:29:44.000 I mean, you know, we know that the religions have been scamming us for centuries. 1.00
01:29:50.000 Not Scientology.
01:29:51.000 No, they're legit.
01:29:53.000 Sure, they're legit, right.
01:29:55.000 I'm trying to join Scientology.
01:29:57.000 It's my latest thing.
01:29:58.000 I see.
01:29:59.000 I'm working my way in.
01:30:00.000 But the thing is, with psychedelics, faith is an impediment.
01:30:04.000 You don't have to have faith.
01:30:05.000 You can just have what you need to have is courage.
01:30:08.000 But what do you say to the people, the cynics, the people who would look at the psychedelic experiences and say, okay, you are glorifying and you're over-exaggerating what's essentially a hallucination.
01:30:23.000 Your visual cortex is being bombarded with these foreign chemicals.
01:30:27.000 You're seeing things that aren't there.
01:30:30.000 And all this is is just your brain's need to make something profound out of what's essentially a malfunction.
01:30:38.000 A malfunction of your thinking, a malfunction of your visuals.
01:30:42.000 And you've sort of attached all this importance to it after the experience is over.
01:30:46.000 That's the cynical point of view.
01:30:47.000 Yeah, that's the cynical point of view.
01:30:48.000 But to that I would reply that what we call ordinary reality, ordinary consciousness, even consensus reality, is essentially a hallucination.
01:31:01.000 I mean, right?
01:31:02.000 The reason drugs work is because we're made of drugs.
01:31:06.000 And whether or not we're on drugs or not, our brains are creating this reality, which we know does not resemble the real world, whatever that is.
01:31:17.000 I mean, the instruments of our physics and so on tell us that the world is a quantum world.
01:31:22.000 It's full of vibration.
01:31:23.000 It doesn't look anything like this.
01:31:26.000 A lot of what our brain does is synthesize a hallucination, essentially, create a model of the world that we proceed to live in.
01:31:39.000 I mean, the world that you and I share and everyone shares, this is a model of the world.
01:31:45.000 This is a model reality, not the real reality.
01:31:49.000 Is completely unknowable and will always remain so.
01:31:53.000 So for people to say, well, you've just, yeah, you've disturbed your brain chemistry in a novel way and you've tuned into a different channel, essentially, but you're still working with a model, whether it's a model of the...
01:32:08.000 We're all experienced through the lens of a drug or whether it's experienced through the lens of, you know, sober conscious perception.
01:32:16.000 It's still a biochemical artifact in a sense.
01:32:21.000 Our brains create this.
01:32:23.000 We live inside of it, you know, and that's...
01:32:28.000 So that's what I would say to those people, that it's not that...
01:32:34.000 There is some kind of objective reality which we're immersed in when we're not on drugs.
01:32:41.000 It's more that we're on drugs all the time.
01:32:45.000 Our brain is an organ that happens to churn out drugs, which we call neurotransmitters and hormones, and that's what our brains run on.
01:32:57.000 So all you do when you take an external drug is you tweak one or more of those sets of receptors that the neurons are talking to, and you get a slightly distorted signal from what we have come to accept as ordinary reality.
01:33:15.000 There is no ordinary reality, or we don't know what it is.
01:33:19.000 It's forever unknowable in terms of our subjective experience.
01:33:24.000 Does that make sense?
01:33:25.000 Yes, it does.
01:33:26.000 There's a very strange desire to discount something that you can't put on a scale.
01:33:34.000 You can't bring it back and show it to someone.
01:33:37.000 Essentially, most of what you experience in your everyday life is just that.
01:33:41.000 It's just an experience.
01:33:42.000 You're seeing things, you're feeling things, you're traveling, you're taking in information.
01:33:46.000 But we have this real need, a lot of people, to discount the things that happen, to discount the vision of the psychedelic experience, the hallucinations, the visuals, the profound impact and the sounds.
01:34:01.000 Even though those are experiences that you are taking in as an individual, as a human being, as an entity, you're taking those in, they're dismissed.
01:34:10.000 They're discounted because you can't hit them.
01:34:13.000 You can't paint them.
01:34:15.000 There's nothing there.
01:34:17.000 You have nothing there.
01:34:18.000 That experience, although significant to you, Well, yeah.
01:34:22.000 But now, I mean, that's part of the task, I think, is to be able to bring something back from that place.
01:34:30.000 And people do.
01:34:31.000 I mean, I think that's a lot of what psychedelic art does and these sort of creative...
01:34:37.000 It's not that people go out and take psychedelic drugs and never produce anything.
01:34:44.000 Those experiences influence them profoundly.
01:34:48.000 And you may not be able to exactly reproduce them, but given the technologies that we have access to, you can come pretty darn close with multimedia technologies and computer graphics and all this stuff.
01:35:03.000 And it may be that...
01:35:06.000 I think this technology is only going to get better as we evolve toward it.
01:35:13.000 Maybe in 10 or 15 years you won't have to take psychedelic drugs because we'll have neurotechnologies that just do the same thing.
01:35:23.000 Or maybe it is that you take one Psychedelic drug.
01:35:28.000 You take a capsule and it's a nanomachine that will, on demand, produce any kind of altered state that you want to call up.
01:35:38.000 One of the more fascinating...
01:35:40.000 Scary, but also within the realm of possibility.
01:35:43.000 That's the scary part, is that it's not just science fiction.
01:35:46.000 One of the fascinating concepts that Terence had was the concept of the singularity as he saw it, you know, the technological singularity.
01:35:56.000 A little bit different than the way Kurzweil and a lot of these futurists saw it.
01:35:59.000 He thought it was very likely going to be a time machine or something along those lines, something that will They'll be created where there's a new technology where time ceases to be linear.
01:36:09.000 Did you wrap your head around that?
01:36:11.000 Like how did you feel about that one?
01:36:14.000 Well, yeah, we did.
01:36:15.000 I mean, we love to play with that idea.
01:36:19.000 And, you know, in fact, we used to, you know, Terry used to speculate that, you know, at 2012 that the singularity will be Triggered the moment that time travel is invented.
01:36:33.000 And everyone after that will, of course, want to migrate back to the original moment when time travel was invented.
01:36:42.000 So suddenly there'll be all these time machines condensing out of nowhere.
01:36:48.000 Instantly.
01:36:49.000 Instantly.
01:36:49.000 Everything changes.
01:36:50.000 Right, right.
01:36:51.000 Everything changes.
01:36:52.000 No one can even wrap their head around that idea, that infinite Time and distance into the future would all be able to access the moment the first time machine was invented.
01:37:00.000 That's right.
01:37:01.000 They would all come back.
01:37:02.000 Time travel would certainly change everything if you could do that.
01:37:07.000 I don't know.
01:37:08.000 I mean, physics pretty much tells us that time travel is technically possible, but...
01:37:15.000 Only if you have access to manipulation of energies that are likely to be way beyond us for quite a while.
01:37:24.000 You know, black hole levels of energy and that kind of thing.
01:37:28.000 You can do funny things with time, but there's always a possibility that there will be a breakthrough.
01:37:35.000 Right.
01:37:35.000 You never know.
01:37:37.000 Well, we're never going to stop.
01:37:39.000 My thought about human ingenuity and our constant desire for innovation is that I don't ever see it stopping.
01:37:46.000 It seems to be a part of what the human animal is and what it does here.
01:37:50.000 So if someone like, I do not remember his name, the guy out of University of Connecticut, he's the lead time travel expert He's a really fascinating character.
01:38:05.000 He's like a guy in a Spider-Man book.
01:38:07.000 Because his father died when he was a young boy, so he became determined to build a time machine to go back and save his father.
01:38:14.000 Oh.
01:38:15.000 Yeah.
01:38:15.000 Really fascinating guy.
01:38:17.000 I cannot remember his name.
01:38:18.000 I will, eventually.
01:38:20.000 But his, Ronald Mallet, his idea, I think, was that once he had really thoroughly researched time travel, he realized that you would never be able to go back before the moment of time machine was invented.
01:38:36.000 You're never going to be able to go backwards.
01:38:38.000 Exactly.
01:38:38.000 But you can go back to that moment.
01:38:41.000 Terence had that idea long before this guy did.
01:38:45.000 And this guy was like, you know, he's a legit peer-reviewed scientist.
01:38:48.000 I mean, he has a peer-reviewed paper on the science behind time travel.
01:38:53.000 And they all agree that, yeah, if you could generate this insane amount of power, you could be able to do it.
01:38:57.000 You could do it.
01:38:58.000 I find it amazing that Terence had this idea as well.
01:39:01.000 Like, really, long before it was sort of a mainstream thought.
01:39:05.000 Well, you know, you can attribute that to, in a sense, what we were immersed in when we were kids.
01:39:12.000 I mean, we were both completely sucked into science fiction.
01:39:17.000 We were very much immersed in science fiction.
01:39:20.000 H.G. Wells' novel, The Time Traveler, you know, The Time Machine, I mean, that was a huge influence on me.
01:39:28.000 I probably read that sucker 10 or 15 times.
01:39:31.000 I read that when I was a kid as well. 0.76
01:39:32.000 I was totally fascinated by that idea.
01:39:35.000 All the versions of the movie as well?
01:39:37.000 At least two versions.
01:39:39.000 At least two versions.
01:39:42.000 I think the first one was possibly a little better.
01:39:46.000 So those ideas were out there.
01:39:51.000 And again, under psychedelics and shamanic states, you can time travel.
01:39:58.000 Have you read Graham Hancock's new novel?
01:40:02.000 No.
01:40:03.000 Very interesting.
01:40:03.000 No.
01:40:04.000 Entangled.
01:40:04.000 Oh, you should read it.
01:40:05.000 I would love to.
01:40:06.000 Very interesting.
01:40:07.000 I've read his non-fiction stuff.
01:40:08.000 This is his first novel, but it's all about essentially a time bridge between a shamanic person 17,000 years ago and a modern...
01:40:21.000 Counterpart and they're communicating across, they're entangled, literally quantum entangled.
01:40:28.000 It's quite a fascinating novel.
01:40:32.000 He had fun with it.
01:40:33.000 I find it amazing that we've been able to, for the most part, not destroy ourselves with nuclear power, because nuclear power, in a lot of the ways, the biggest impact it has is not just powering cities, but destroying them.
01:40:46.000 The fact that we've sort of figured out a way to put a cap on that, And really, despite all the conflict in the world, we haven't had a nuclear event like that since the 1940s.
01:40:56.000 Right.
01:40:57.000 I wonder how much more evolved we would have to be to be responsible for the actual use of a time machine.
01:41:04.000 I mean, how much more evolved would we have to be before we could have something like that?
01:41:08.000 It wouldn't be the president has access to the button.
01:41:11.000 It would be, you know, the president has access to the hole in the universe.
01:41:14.000 You know, I mean, how do we decide whether or not we're going to do this?
01:41:19.000 How do we decide who we go back in time and save?
01:41:21.000 You know, when events happen in the news, do we have like a congressional meeting?
01:41:25.000 Do we go back in time and save this person?
01:41:27.000 Well, the thing is, I mean, I think that's a misunderstanding of the nature of time, right?
01:41:34.000 I mean, if I mean, one of the reasons time travel is impossible, supposedly, that kind of time, is because you can't do those things.
01:41:44.000 You can't go back and prevent the Kennedy assassination, you know, because you proliferate another timeline and things take at least one more.
01:41:54.000 But then, you know, physicists tell us, I mean, the current theory is everything you do precipitates, you know, It proliferates multiple timelines.
01:42:04.000 Please explain that, because Duncan and I have been trying to wrap our heads around that one, and we've brought it up to each other a couple of times.
01:42:10.000 It's sort of an abstract idea in my head, but every decision you make literally creates a different universe.
01:42:19.000 Creates a different universe.
01:42:20.000 And not only every decision you ever make, if I understand it, it extends to, you know, every collapse of a waveform, every, you know, collision of atoms, every event, every event, no matter how minuscule or insignificant that we're not even aware of proliferates multiple,
01:42:42.000 multiple time frames.
01:42:45.000 It doesn't make sense.
01:42:47.000 Obviously, we can't wrap our head around this.
01:42:50.000 And it may be that we're...
01:42:52.000 I mean, maybe we're not confined to one of these timelines.
01:42:57.000 Maybe we're living simultaneously an infinite number of timelines.
01:43:03.000 That's so hard to wrap your head around.
01:43:04.000 Yeah, it's hard to wrap your head around.
01:43:06.000 The idea of fractal universes.
01:43:08.000 An infinite amount of fractal universes.
01:43:09.000 And they're constantly changing and moving like a tide filled with cells.
01:43:15.000 Like...
01:43:15.000 A tide of cells just washing over the world, over and over, back and forth, and it never ends.
01:43:21.000 But why not?
01:43:22.000 Why reality?
01:43:24.000 Why this?
01:43:24.000 This is bizarre enough as it is.
01:43:26.000 Exactly.
01:43:27.000 I've always said to people, if you don't want to have a psychedelic experience, you are whether you like it or not.
01:43:33.000 It's called life.
01:43:34.000 Because if you existed in some sort of a logical continuum of real objective thought and reasoning, and you had to exist in life in today, in the human world in 2012...
01:43:43.000 Right, and that was my point.
01:43:45.000 That's what we were saying earlier.
01:43:46.000 The brain is a machine that simulates the reality that we live in.
01:43:51.000 And then, you know, so it just is.
01:43:56.000 I mean, it's our...
01:43:58.000 It takes the raw data of experience and it mixes it together and it extrudes it into something comprehensible.
01:44:09.000 So the brain is as much a processor of this data from outside.
01:44:14.000 I think the question of whether the brain generates consciousness Is one of the things that neuroscience has to confront.
01:44:25.000 And I think the evidence is that it doesn't.
01:44:28.000 It's more of a detector of consciousness.
01:44:30.000 What evidence is this?
01:44:32.000 What evidence?
01:44:33.000 What evidence is this that the brain detects consciousness?
01:44:36.000 Well, all of the evidence of non-ordinary states.
01:44:40.000 You know, these other dimensions that for shamanism and for psychedelics they present as real.
01:44:47.000 I mean, does the brain dream all those up?
01:44:50.000 Why are there commonalities between those states, you know, between people?
01:44:55.000 I mean, you don't have to be fans of Terence and Dennis McKenna to take DMT and have similar experiences, you know, to us.
01:45:05.000 So I think I just don't think that we really have a definitive way to say that all of what we experience arises from the brain.
01:45:17.000 It's more that consciousness is built into the structure of space-time in a certain way, and our brains are detectors and processors, much in the way that television is a detector of a signal,
01:45:35.000 Takes in the signal, processes it in a way that's comprehensible, and puts it out there on the screen.
01:45:41.000 So the ego and the personality and the lifestyle you choose and what have you as you're making your way through this dimension is essentially just clothing that you wear to shield you from the great outdoors of reality.
01:45:53.000 Essentially, yeah.
01:45:55.000 It's a model that you create.
01:45:56.000 It's a model that you create.
01:45:58.000 And it helps you get through this.
01:45:59.000 It helps you get through it.
01:46:01.000 And it maps closely enough, close enough to some external reality out there that you can navigate.
01:46:08.000 You're not stepping off cliffs or walking in front of buses, so it has a definite survival value.
01:46:15.000 And there's enough overlap between what your consensual world is and mine is and ours is that we can...
01:46:25.000 We can talk to each other.
01:46:26.000 We can live in this same space, you know, to a certain extent.
01:46:33.000 It's a fascinating concept.
01:46:35.000 It really is.
01:46:36.000 And that's one of the more profound aspects of the psychedelic experience is the stripping away of that personality and culture and everything and getting to some weird, strange source, getting to this strange thing that exists, this clear thought without all...
01:46:52.000 For a minute, you get to turn the circuit board over.
01:46:55.000 Right.
01:46:55.000 You get to turn it over and see how it's wired.
01:46:59.000 I think that's one of the...
01:47:01.000 There's big, useful, interesting things about psychedelics and particularly DMT. DMT just rips the curtain back and you get to see the raw data of experience and how it's everything.
01:47:19.000 Memories, people you talk to, fragments of songs, just whatever things are swimming around in your head.
01:47:29.000 You sort of see, they're all going into, you know, through this funnel or something, and it's coming out all taped together some way, and that kind of a coherent picture of reality.
01:47:40.000 But DMT strips that back.
01:47:42.000 You get to step, you get to see it from the other side, briefly, how it's working, you know, the reality-generating machine, if you will.
01:47:54.000 That's what you see on DMT. What are your thoughts on alien abductions and UFO experiences?
01:48:03.000 Do you think that these are endogenous dumps of DMT? That it's most likely what these people are experiencing is some sort of an overflow or something?
01:48:14.000 No, I don't.
01:48:16.000 I mean, I think that...
01:48:19.000 You know, I think that Strassman's work on this where high doses of DMT can, you know, in some people, reliably induce these abduction type encounters.
01:48:34.000 Well, we know they're not, you know, standing beside a highway in New Mexico and watching a UFO land.
01:48:41.000 They're in a hospital bed, you know, with an IV installed, but they're having these types of experiences.
01:48:47.000 For those who don't know what you're talking about, it's Rick Strassman's work.
01:48:50.000 It's a book called DMT, The Spirit Molecule.
01:48:53.000 It's all about clinical studies and things he did with DMT. Clinical studies with DMT. And Strassman reported that in many of his subjects who were given high doses of DMT, they had experiences that were...
01:49:08.000 Similar, if not identical, to the classic alien abduction type experiences.
01:49:15.000 So then you do think that that's what these people are having.
01:49:17.000 They're having endogenous dumps while they're sleeping.
01:49:19.000 It's just something's happening and that's...
01:49:21.000 No, I think that not necessarily.
01:49:23.000 I think that what DMT does is it lets you poke your head temporarily into another dimension.
01:49:32.000 So when these people are having these UFO abduction experiences, you think that other dimension is poking its head into ours?
01:49:38.000 Yeah, something like that.
01:49:40.000 Somehow the membrane is thin, and whether it's you going there or them going here, but there are...
01:49:50.000 Interfaces between what we call ordinary reality, which isn't ordinary at all, and these alternate realities.
01:49:59.000 And occasionally they come together, you know, and the membrane stretches and then you get these types of interactions.
01:50:08.000 But if that's true, I mean, if that's true, that model is...
01:50:16.000 The usual model of experience is reductionist.
01:50:20.000 It's like the brain is generating all of this, and that's where it's coming from.
01:50:28.000 Everything we think we know about the world is based on that premise.
01:50:32.000 If this other premise is true, then we have to re-examine our most fundamental assumptions about how it is, how the world is.
01:50:43.000 The issue isn't part of it though that all these abduction experiences, a good percentage of them happen at night.
01:50:50.000 They happen, a lot of them, while these people are in bed.
01:50:53.000 They're not happening while people are, like, Monday morning on the highway on the way to work.
01:50:57.000 They're happening while you're supposed to be sleeping, while your brain is producing DMT in the first place.
01:51:01.000 Exactly.
01:51:02.000 Do you think that the DMT could possibly, I mean, this is complete speculation, but act as a doorway where an actual, real, true entity can come through so these people that are having these UFO abduction experiences, even if they are still lying in their bed, they are actually still having this real experience.
01:51:21.000 Yeah, I do.
01:51:22.000 I mean, and if you talk to shamans, people that deliberately induce these states for exactly this reason, to communicate with these non-human intelligences that give them useful information about all kinds of things,
01:51:38.000 I mean, the shamans are just matter of fact about it.
01:51:41.000 And they'll just say, well, yeah, what did you think it was?
01:51:44.000 You know, this is the way reality is.
01:51:47.000 Then that's where the cynics always come in.
01:51:49.000 Where's this information?
01:51:50.000 What are you bringing back?
01:51:51.000 Could someone please bring back an unsolvable equation?
01:51:55.000 That's a tough one.
01:51:58.000 What do you think, if you had to point to anything that's been brought back from the psychedelic experiment?
01:52:05.000 The Francis Crick thing, that's disputed, right?
01:52:08.000 Whether or not Francis Crick actually saw the double helix while he was on LSD? Well, he said that he did.
01:52:15.000 On his deathbed.
01:52:17.000 On his deathbed.
01:52:18.000 There's no recording, you know what I mean?
01:52:20.000 Right, right, right.
01:52:21.000 How much of that is just a rumor?
01:52:22.000 Kerry Mullis, who is totally out front about his LSD experiences, contributed to his insights about this.
01:52:31.000 But you're right, it's difficult to bring something back.
01:52:36.000 I mean, and Terence was...
01:52:38.000 He has talked about this.
01:52:40.000 He used to, when he was taking mushrooms, do exactly this.
01:52:44.000 Get this I-Thou dialogue going with the mushroom and insist that the mushroom tell him something that he couldn't possibly know.
01:52:56.000 And the mushroom was always very cagey about it and didn't cough it up.
01:53:02.000 It was like, well, if I tell you that, you won't need me.
01:53:05.000 That sounds like the imagination to me.
01:53:07.000 I mean, if I was the cynic, I would say, well, that's obviously your imagination then because it can't concoct anything that doesn't exist or something you wouldn't possibly know.
01:53:14.000 It doesn't have the resources because it's coming from your own mind.
01:53:17.000 Well, that would be the criticism.
01:53:20.000 But then out of that comes something like this, the time wave zero.
01:53:24.000 I mean, I would submit that the time wave zero was an artifact from this other dimension.
01:53:29.000 But do we really understand what it was?
01:53:33.000 I mean, it was a conceptual...
01:53:37.000 Artifact, in a certain sense.
01:53:39.000 It was an idea.
01:53:40.000 It certainly came from left field.
01:53:43.000 And regardless of whether or not it actually is some sort of a map of time, it most certainly is a 13 lunar cycle calendar.
01:53:51.000 It most certainly is that.
01:53:52.000 And that came from a psychedelic experience, the knowledge of that.
01:53:56.000 Essentially, yeah.
01:53:57.000 Essentially.
01:53:58.000 So that seems to be something, at least that aspect of it.
01:54:01.000 It seems very unfortunate that it's connected with this idea of a map of time, which It makes people stick their nose up in the air.
01:54:08.000 Because if they just looked at it for that, just the I Ching being a calendar, a lost calendar, an unknown calendar. 0.99
01:54:15.000 Indisputably, it's a calendar.
01:54:17.000 Or you can use it that way.
01:54:18.000 I mean, the mathematics is clear.
01:54:20.000 As long as you don't begin to postulate that this actually, you know, describes the structure of time, I mean, that's where I have a problem with it.
01:54:29.000 Because for one thing, you know, time wave zero completely ignores relativity.
01:54:34.000 And all the aspects of time that go into that.
01:54:39.000 And how so?
01:54:41.000 Well, it claims that this map of time describes the structure of time everywhere.
01:54:52.000 In all parts of the universe, but we know from relativity that it all depends on the reference frame, right?
01:55:00.000 So it's not clear.
01:55:03.000 So like a spaceship traveling, the speed of light, someone aboard it experiences time at a different level than someone on Earth.
01:55:09.000 In a different way.
01:55:10.000 How do you coincide with that?
01:55:11.000 How do they coexist?
01:55:12.000 You can't reconcile.
01:55:13.000 It just doesn't account for it.
01:55:15.000 I mean, the problem with the time wave... 0.99
01:55:18.000 I'm too stupid for this conversation. 0.99
01:55:19.000 At the... 1.00
01:55:21.000 I'm trying to wrap my head around it while we're talking about it.
01:55:24.000 The problem with the time wave, in my opinion, is that it can't be disproved.
01:55:32.000 Neither can Jesus.
01:55:35.000 But science can't disprove anything, you know?
01:55:37.000 Science can't disprove, well yeah, science can disprove things.
01:55:41.000 They can't prove anything.
01:55:42.000 But not unique events, right?
01:55:43.000 That unique events happened.
01:55:45.000 In other words, Terence or whoever created the time wave theory never defined, these are the criteria that will invalidate this theory, right?
01:55:56.000 And science depends on In order to qualify as a theory, you have to say, what's going to invalidate it?
01:56:05.000 What are the criteria that's going to take the foundations out from under this theory?
01:56:11.000 That either means you have to chuck the theory completely, or you have to modify it so the model fits the data better, right?
01:56:20.000 And he was never able to, or he never...
01:56:25.000 And I don't think he was really able to define what would invalidate the theory.
01:56:30.000 So it's an untestable theory.
01:56:31.000 So it's not a theory.
01:56:34.000 It's just an idea.
01:56:35.000 It's an interesting idea, but it isn't a theory.
01:56:38.000 It's not something you can disprove.
01:56:41.000 And so it's...
01:56:44.000 It's useful as an idea, but in some ways it's not.
01:56:50.000 I mean, you know, if you want it to be scientific, if you want to call this a theory in the scientific sense, you have to define what's going to disprove it.
01:56:59.000 When I meant that science can't disprove things, what I meant is they can't disprove really unique events like the idea of a UFO actually existing and then disappearing.
01:57:07.000 Once it's here and gone, if there's no physical evidence, how can you disprove a unique event like that?
01:57:15.000 Well, yeah, you don't.
01:57:18.000 It doesn't mean they don't exist, though, right?
01:57:21.000 They do exist.
01:57:22.000 Sure.
01:57:23.000 Something exists, right?
01:57:25.000 I mean, I always thought that what J. Allen Hynek, the famous UFO researcher, said about UFOs, he said, I don't know if UFOs are real or not, but I know absolutely 100% that UFO experiences are real.
01:57:45.000 And that's the data.
01:57:46.000 That's the data that you have to investigate.
01:57:50.000 I think that's a very perceptive thing to say.
01:57:53.000 Especially coming from him.
01:57:54.000 Yeah, coming from him.
01:57:56.000 J. Allen Hynek was a guy who actually worked for Operation Project Blue Book.
01:57:59.000 And he was...
01:58:01.000 Assigned by the government to go and research different UFO sightings and somewhere along the line, he decided, listen man, I'm going to just do this.
01:58:09.000 And he stopped working for the government and just started spending all of his time researching UFOs.
01:58:13.000 He was absolutely convinced.
01:58:14.000 But he was always clear that what he was investigating were UFO experiences because that was the data That he had to work with, you know, and that's absolutely 100% true.
01:58:28.000 UFO experiences do occur, whether those are...
01:58:34.000 Confabulations of the mind or whether they're extraterrestrial origin, extradimensional origin.
01:58:42.000 I don't think we can really say.
01:58:45.000 Did you ever have any sort of alien experience?
01:58:49.000 Did you ever have any sort of extraterrestrial physical contact?
01:58:57.000 No, I can't say I have, you know...
01:59:00.000 Other than being smeared over the entire universe.
01:59:03.000 Yeah, but that was...
01:59:04.000 That seems pretty extraterrestrial.
01:59:06.000 That was my head.
01:59:06.000 It was extraterrestrial.
01:59:08.000 But Terence did, you know, at La Cerrera he did.
01:59:12.000 Of course, there was no one else to witness this, right?
01:59:15.000 And I write about that in the book.
01:59:18.000 I actually quote at length a section from True Hallucinations in which he describes this.
01:59:26.000 And I have no doubt, I don't doubt that it took place.
01:59:29.000 I mean, there was all sorts of anomalous things taking place at La Charrera.
01:59:34.000 And then again, it goes back to the fact that you guys were ingesting the most incredible psilocybin mushrooms every day, all day.
01:59:43.000 Well, but the really interesting stuff didn't start until after we'd stopped that. 0.99
01:59:49.000 Well, even after you stopped that, though, how much of that shit was still floating around in your head? 0.99
01:59:54.000 I mean, you guys were talking about crazy quantities. 0.99
01:59:56.000 Hard to say.
01:59:57.000 Did you ever sober up?
01:59:59.000 Are you still high from that?
02:00:00.000 Well, in some sense, we're still high from it, because that experience, you're always integrating it.
02:00:07.000 I mean, it's rather strange to me that...
02:00:10.000 You know, it's like that was 1971, so that was 40 years ago.
02:00:17.000 And one of the more interesting things that Terence said about psilocybin, which was a real mind blower, was, first of all, how closely it relates to normal human neurochemistry.
02:00:29.000 That psilocybin is like almost exactly the same as chemicals that our own brain produces and very alien in that form.
02:00:39.000 The form that it exists, whatever the molecule structure of psilocybin is, it's the only similar...
02:00:46.000 The way it exists, there's not something similar to it, or there's not something like it that exists in the organic world other than our own brain chemistry?
02:00:56.000 Well, yeah.
02:00:57.000 Well, that's not quite true.
02:00:58.000 But I think what he was trying to say, that psilocybin is only found in the fungal kingdom, right?
02:01:05.000 As far as we know, it's never been found in a higher plant, although...
02:01:08.000 Lots of tryptamines.
02:01:10.000 DMT is all over the place and a lot of its derivatives, but psilocybin and psilocin do not occur, as far as we know, outside the fungal world, outside the world of mushrooms.
02:01:23.000 Why that should be?
02:01:24.000 Hard to say.
02:01:25.000 Maybe it will be discovered in a higher plant tomorrow or next week, but I kind of doubt it.
02:01:34.000 I don't want to get too much into the chemistry, but I do think that this touches on another remarkable aspect of our universe, of biological being,
02:01:51.000 which is that these tryptamines, DMT, 5-methoxy-DMT, bufotinine, psilocybin, psilocin, DMT itself is two steps from tryptophan.
02:02:04.000 Tryptophan is an amino acid that is universal.
02:02:06.000 It's part of the 20 that go into proteins.
02:02:09.000 So it's an essential molecule of life, tryptophan is.
02:02:13.000 The enzymes that convert tryptophan to DMT, there are two primary enzymes.
02:02:31.000 I don't know if your audience cares about this, but the point is two trivial steps from tryptophan leads to DMT, right?
02:02:44.000 You know, the biosphere is saturated with DMT. It's not an uncommon chemical at all.
02:02:52.000 It's found in probably thousands of plants.
02:02:55.000 It's found in animals.
02:02:56.000 It's found in fungi.
02:02:58.000 It's everywhere.
02:03:00.000 I think it's interesting.
02:03:01.000 I mean, I don't know what it means except, you know, stepping away from science for a minute, strict science, but thinking maybe this is a kind of a subtle message that nature is trying to Send to the monkeys?
02:03:16.000 That's why DMT is everywhere?
02:03:17.000 Yeah, look guys, just look around the corner, right?
02:03:20.000 It's all waiting for you.
02:03:22.000 It's all there.
02:03:23.000 If I remember what Terence said, what he was alluding to was that psilocybin may have come here from an asteroid, that it could survive in a vacuum.
02:03:35.000 I think...
02:03:36.000 It was phosphorus, I believe, in the four position, describing the molecular structure of psilocybin.
02:03:42.000 Well, psilocybin is phosphorylated in the four position.
02:03:46.000 And you said it was the only thing that was like that?
02:03:49.000 It's the only one we've found so far.
02:03:52.000 It's the only phosphorylated indole that we've found.
02:03:56.000 Well, that and some...
02:03:58.000 Close derivatives which also occur in the mushrooms.
02:04:01.000 Does that make any sense then?
02:04:02.000 That that could have possibly come here?
02:04:04.000 We know that what's called pansperia, is that how they describe it?
02:04:07.000 Panspermia?
02:04:07.000 Panspermia is how they believe that amino acids and essential building blocks from life may have traveled here from asteroids and that may be how life is seeded on this planet.
02:04:16.000 Or, I mean, I suggest in the book, actually people have to read the book because I unpack this.
02:04:23.000 I actually Have a section in the book called Reflections on Monterey.
02:04:28.000 And I, trying to Not only unpack it for the reader, but try and look at it myself from the standpoint of four years hence, you know, after the experience and say, what was going on and what makes sense and what might have been going on?
02:04:46.000 Was it simply two, you know, nerdy guys who went to the Amazon, took too many drugs and had, you know, these experiences and that end of story?
02:04:58.000 Or was there really something else going on?
02:05:00.000 And the whole This issue touches on what we were talking about, about the potential evolutionary significance of mushrooms.
02:05:09.000 And it may be that what we are is a million-year, multi-million-year long biotechnology experiment, essentially, where if a Super technological civilization,
02:05:28.000 biotechnological civilization with plenty of time on its hands and a certain perspective, if they wanted to take an ecology and see what happened when they seeded these molecules into the ecology, you know,
02:05:43.000 and then...
02:05:50.000 It's almost like they wanted to...
02:05:57.000 Kind of, I guess, create the conditions where intelligence and consciousness could arise and then see what the effects were in a certain sense.
02:06:07.000 Prometheus style.
02:06:08.000 Prometheus style.
02:06:10.000 Although Prometheus, as we all agree, was pretty lame.
02:06:13.000 But something like that.
02:06:15.000 I'm glad you said it first.
02:06:16.000 Yeah.
02:06:17.000 Something along those lines, you know, where if you...
02:06:21.000 Seed the ecology with tryptophan and the enzymes, then this thing is going to be all over the place.
02:06:29.000 And then, you know, and probably predate the appearance of complex nervous systems.
02:06:37.000 But, you know, we know, for example, that the serotonin receptors are evolutionarily the oldest receptors that we know, the oldest neurotransmitter receptors.
02:06:50.000 So...
02:06:54.000 Well, I don't know.
02:06:55.000 I mean, it's tempting to speculate on this.
02:06:58.000 It's very hard to...
02:07:00.000 It's sexy.
02:07:00.000 It's comforting in a certain way to think there is actually...
02:07:06.000 An overlord.
02:07:06.000 An overlord that's out there seeding intelligence throughout the galaxy.
02:07:11.000 I mean, what a cool idea.
02:07:12.000 But you yourself, knowing so much about biology, looking at the complex processes that occur on this planet that are completely...
02:07:19.000 I wouldn't say they're orchestrated by nature...
02:07:22.000 But just the parasitic relationships, the really complex ones that parasites have, like the aquatic water worm that gets inside of a grasshopper, grows, then convinces the grasshopper to commit suicide so it can be born into the water.
02:07:36.000 I mean, we know about these weird, crazy relationships that exist.
02:07:40.000 Right, exactly.
02:07:41.000 So, well, but this is a kind of an example of that on the galactic scale, exactly.
02:07:49.000 You know, if there are fungi in nature, and actually your cordyceps in your supplement is exactly that, you know it's biology.
02:07:59.000 You know, it grows on caterpillars.
02:08:01.000 There are some species that will grow on ants.
02:08:05.000 You probably heard how they work.
02:08:08.000 They will infect the ant at a certain point.
02:08:11.000 The haustoria, they will put these mycelium... 0.97
02:08:15.000 Mycelia will infect the ant's brain and trigger it to go from the base of the leaf of the blade of grass to the tip.
02:08:26.000 Then it will kill it and paralyze it.
02:08:29.000 And then it can sporulate, right?
02:08:32.000 It will overgrow the body and release the spores.
02:08:34.000 But it's induced the ant to go from the least optimal place to distribute spores to the most optimal place.
02:08:41.000 It's incredible.
02:08:42.000 So it's controlled it.
02:08:43.000 So that's a phenomenon.
02:08:45.000 That's an intelligence.
02:08:46.000 That's a kind of intelligence.
02:08:48.000 A spreading intelligence.
02:08:48.000 So why is it so far-fetched to think that there is a galactic, you know, super race or maybe it's, you know.
02:08:58.000 That infects, you know, complex nervous systems in our ecology that then induces us to, you know, invent culture and language and technology and eventually build starships and get off this butt ball.
02:09:15.000 And do what they're doing.
02:09:16.000 And do what they're doing.
02:09:17.000 Continue it.
02:09:18.000 So that's the most advanced form of, like, forming life in other places.
02:09:25.000 Yeah.
02:09:25.000 Yeah.
02:09:25.000 Maybe.
02:09:26.000 Or maybe just also.
02:09:28.000 I mean, this is getting so far out.
02:09:30.000 We should probably end the interview right here.
02:09:33.000 We went as far down the what-if ladder as you can get.
02:09:37.000 Galactic overlord sending spaceships filled with mushrooms.
02:09:41.000 Yeah, that's like next stop crazy town.
02:09:44.000 You have to remember that we exist.
02:09:47.000 You have to remember that we're putting a rover on Mars and taking photographs and possibly contaminating Mars.
02:09:51.000 And how unlikely this whole...
02:09:53.000 The thing is that we should even be here.
02:09:56.000 I mean, one of Terence's favorite phrases, and I think it's true, we should always remember what J.B.S. Haldane said, you know, the universe is not only stranger than you suppose, it's stranger than you can suppose.
02:10:11.000 I love that quote, and I love that he used to say queer.
02:10:14.000 Yeah, actually, I was going to say, actually he said queer, but we can't use that term.
02:10:19.000 Isn't that funny that they took queer? 1.00
02:10:21.000 They took queer, but that's what he said.
02:10:23.000 The universe is a queer thing. 1.00
02:10:25.000 Can it exist in that way as well?
02:10:28.000 Nope. 0.83
02:10:29.000 Anything that attaches to homosexual men. 0.99
02:10:31.000 Can't have a gay old time anymore. 1.00
02:10:32.000 What do they replace it with? 1.00
02:10:34.000 The universe is just a fag? 1.00
02:10:36.000 Stranger. 1.00
02:10:36.000 They say stranger. 1.00
02:10:37.000 No. 0.89
02:10:38.000 Like, you can't say you have a gay old time. 1.00
02:10:40.000 The Flintstones had gay old time in their fucking song. 1.00
02:10:43.000 You can't have that anymore. 1.00
02:10:44.000 Can't have that anymore.
02:10:45.000 We are so sensitive.
02:10:46.000 We're such little babies.
02:10:47.000 Yeah, yeah.
02:10:48.000 In the middle of all this information, we're trying to chop words away.
02:10:51.000 We're trying to take them away.
02:10:53.000 So, you know, I think that...
02:10:57.000 Yeah, I think that ultimately, you know, people say, well, what can we conclude from all this?
02:11:04.000 And what have you learned from taking psychedelics, you know, for 40 years and all that?
02:11:10.000 And the answer is kind of disappointing.
02:11:12.000 It will be disappointing to some people, which is that exactly this.
02:11:16.000 The world is a marvelous place, much more marvelous than we can imagine.
02:11:22.000 You know, and we don't know very much.
02:11:27.000 I mean, our knowledge is so restricted.
02:11:33.000 And I think that's what you learn after all this time.
02:11:37.000 And this is what ayahuasca, my main plant teacher, always insists. 1.00
02:11:42.000 Remember, you don't know shit. 1.00
02:11:46.000 Don't get arrogant because you don't know shit. 1.00
02:11:50.000 You just don't know very much. 1.00
02:11:53.000 And so... 0.96
02:11:57.000 It's like, you could say, well, I don't know shit, and I feel really stupid, but it also clears the decks to appreciate things and remind ourselves that we don't know very much, but it clears the decks for learning. 0.92
02:12:10.000 It means there's so much... 0.98
02:12:12.000 Left to be understood and marveled about and thought about.
02:12:16.000 If you accept the position. 0.99
02:12:18.000 Accept the position that you don't know shit and then enjoy all the information there is to take in and all the fascination and the wonder. 1.00
02:12:25.000 Too many people are trying to control the position and they're trying to control it and pretend that they do know shit. 1.00
02:12:30.000 And that's the big mistake. 0.99
02:12:32.000 That's where the knee-jerk reaction to denying global climate change comes from.
02:12:36.000 It's just a desire of insecure people to try to rationalize and control things.
02:12:42.000 That can be controlled.
02:12:43.000 And institutions want to do.
02:12:46.000 Religion, politics, corporations, the whole thing.
02:12:50.000 Like, we have a model.
02:12:51.000 We have a corner on the truth.
02:12:55.000 The way we think about it is the way it is.
02:12:58.000 And anybody who challenges that is a heretic. 0.99
02:13:03.000 Now, how long did it take you after La Torreira before you jumped back on the horse? 0.99
02:13:08.000 It seems like if I got smeared across the entire cosmos for a couple weeks and I don't remember how I shit or smoke cigarettes, I might just fucking quit, okay? 0.99
02:13:17.000 But not you. 0.99
02:13:18.000 How much time did you take off before you jumped back on?
02:13:21.000 Well, I don't know if someone would say I never have jumped back on, but...
02:13:28.000 How much time did it take after that when I could open a can of tuna fish and do normal things to survive?
02:13:36.000 No, no, no.
02:13:37.000 I mean, how long before you had another psychedelic experience?
02:13:41.000 Oh, another...
02:13:42.000 Well, it was probably a couple of years.
02:13:44.000 Ah, that makes sense.
02:13:45.000 It wasn't that long.
02:13:47.000 It wasn't really that long.
02:13:49.000 That's a long time.
02:13:51.000 Yeah, yeah. 0.97
02:13:52.000 Did you, like, before you did it, be like, what the fuck am I doing? 0.82
02:13:55.000 Do I really want to get spread across the universe within a couple of weeks? 0.87
02:13:58.000 Well, yeah.
02:13:59.000 Well...
02:13:59.000 Yeah, I mean, I had some worries about it when I went back to it.
02:14:04.000 But not really, because there were so many other circumstances.
02:14:08.000 The psychedelic was...
02:14:10.000 Just a part of it.
02:14:11.000 A lot of it, the reason it happened was because we set ourselves up into this...
02:14:20.000 You know, conceptual or I don't know what you call it, cognitive box.
02:14:24.000 We set ourselves, we painted ourselves into this corner in terms of our predictions about what was going to happen, you know, because it was all about time, right?
02:14:36.000 A lot of it was about time.
02:14:37.000 And so when we were leading up to doing the experiment, We thought that, well, the reason all this strange stuff is happening is because a few hours up ahead in the future, we've done the experiment,
02:14:53.000 and it has succeeded.
02:14:55.000 And so what we're getting is the backwash from the future, like approaching a singularity.
02:15:01.000 You know, we were getting the backwash from the future, and that's why it's warping reality.
02:15:05.000 It literally is warping reality as we approach this thing.
02:15:10.000 So we went into it with the attitude that something had to happen, something physics-shattering, and we were trying to overturn, literally, the laws of physics.
02:15:20.000 We came into it with the idea that something had to happen, and guess what?
02:15:25.000 Something happened!
02:15:27.000 It just wasn't what we predicted would happen.
02:15:30.000 You just went cuckoo for a couple of weeks.
02:15:33.000 Yeah, exactly.
02:15:35.000 But it was more than just cuckoo.
02:15:37.000 It was this coordinated...
02:15:45.000 experience of Terence and myself where we were linked and we understood that one person is we were becoming mirror images of each other almost like a photograph and it's negative and one entity was going forward in time and another was going backward in time and I mean,
02:16:07.000 we had a whole framework where it made sense.
02:16:10.000 It might not make sense now.
02:16:12.000 Yeah, well, it does and it doesn't.
02:16:14.000 It does and it doesn't.
02:16:15.000 It does, but I'm lying.
02:16:17.000 It does, but I mean, it does.
02:16:19.000 Not that I'm lying.
02:16:20.000 I mean, I do understand that you're trying to express something that I can't understand.
02:16:25.000 Right.
02:16:26.000 Did you have a lot of experiences or any experiences where you saw ancient motifs, whether it was hieroglyphs or...
02:16:35.000 Egyptian or I've heard people that say they've seen Aramaic or Arab type writing and what seems to be maybe perhaps the experiences of other people that have taken these same sort of psychedelic drugs and that it's a stored collected experience.
02:16:53.000 I know that was one of the things that Terence believed.
02:16:56.000 That when you are taking psilocybin, you're not just taking psilocybin, you're sort of conjoining the experiences of everybody who's ever taken that drug ever.
02:17:03.000 Did you feel that?
02:17:05.000 You mean at La Terrera?
02:17:07.000 At any point.
02:17:08.000 Oh, yeah.
02:17:11.000 Subsequently, I have had those kinds of impressions.
02:17:15.000 I mean, I think it's interesting that one of the...
02:17:22.000 Things that, when we came back from La Torreira, one of the priorities in our life was to figure out how to grow those mushrooms, right?
02:17:33.000 So that we could re-access.
02:17:35.000 But I mean, there was partly, you know, there was partly a mercenary motive.
02:17:39.000 But there was also, the real motive was, we want other people to have these experiences to see if they confirm...
02:17:49.000 What we were experiencing.
02:17:51.000 I mean, were we just nuts?
02:17:53.000 Or do other people have this similar kind of experience?
02:17:57.000 It turns out they do.
02:17:59.000 So that's evidence, again, for the...
02:18:03.000 Objective reality of some of these dimensions, or the reality.
02:18:06.000 I don't know if it's objective, but you know what I'm saying?
02:18:09.000 You don't have to be Terence or Dennis.
02:18:11.000 You don't have to know what we talk about or believe in what we talk about.
02:18:16.000 You can take mushrooms under the right circumstances.
02:18:20.000 You know, in the dark, five grams, pay attention, and You will go to the same place.
02:18:27.000 Many people go to the same place.
02:18:29.000 Do you think that that also explains why in the ayahuasca experience there's a lot of jaguars and a lot of snakes and a lot of that type of...
02:18:40.000 Because to them, that's the dimension.
02:18:42.000 That's the dimension that's real for those people.
02:18:46.000 And it's just...
02:18:47.000 I mean, to us, it seems...
02:18:53.000 Implausible and unlikely.
02:18:55.000 But to them, it's like it's a part of their everyday reality.
02:18:59.000 They just accept it.
02:19:00.000 I mean, it's much more matter-of-fact.
02:19:02.000 Yes, there are these realms.
02:19:04.000 There are these entities.
02:19:07.000 You can get there with ayahuasca.
02:19:12.000 If you look at the paintings of Pablo Emeringo, for example, or others, you know, I mean, he had this ability to paint that realm as best he recollected it.
02:19:23.000 But that's a tremendous contribution because he provided a window, you know, into that cosmology.
02:19:28.000 You can sort of look into that conceptual place without actually taking ayahuasca.
02:19:34.000 As does Alex Gray.
02:19:35.000 As does Alex Gray.
02:19:37.000 A similar kind of thing, yeah.
02:19:39.000 In Pablo's iconography, all of these spirits that you see and UFOs, incidentally, and plants and animals and all that, they all have names.
02:19:50.000 These are not things that he dreamed up.
02:19:52.000 These are part of that cosmos that he is able to depict.
02:19:56.000 What is his name again?
02:19:58.000 Pablo Amaringo?
02:20:00.000 I've got to check him out.
02:20:01.000 I've never heard of this guy before.
02:20:02.000 No?
02:20:03.000 I believe I've seen his art, but I did not know his name.
02:20:07.000 Amaringo.
02:20:08.000 He has a book that he put together with Luis Eduardo Luna, a good friend of mine.
02:20:14.000 Luis wrote the foreword to my book.
02:20:17.000 Oh, I absolutely have seen this guy before.
02:20:19.000 Yeah, you've seen it.
02:20:20.000 Wow, it's amazing stuff.
02:20:21.000 Wow, so amazing.
02:20:24.000 So he recollects his visions and was able to put them out onto canvas, you know.
02:20:32.000 Wow.
02:20:33.000 Yeah, when a guy can do that, like Alex Gray especially, some of his images, they appear Egyptian, they appear DMT slash Egyptian.
02:20:43.000 And I've always wondered, what is that that you're seeing when you're seeing this sort of ancient motif?
02:20:53.000 It seems, for whatever reason, it seems like a crazy assertion that you're accessing the experiences of all these people that have ever done this drug.
02:21:02.000 But is it any weirder than cell phones?
02:21:06.000 Is that any weirder than the ability to Google something?
02:21:09.000 No, it's not.
02:21:10.000 It's inherently not.
02:21:11.000 Is it any weirder than the Hobbit in 3D? I mean, you could say, yeah, you could say, you know, well, it's a similar experience because these mushrooms activate the same receptors in everybody, and we all have a similar brain architecture and all that, and I think that to a certain extent that's part of it,
02:21:28.000 but that's not the whole story.
02:21:32.000 I mean, again, that comes back to whether, you know, The brain is generating this stuff or whether it's actually, you know, sort of just making the membrane thinner so that you can look at it.
02:21:43.000 Did you have any experience with sensory deprivation tanks?
02:21:48.000 I haven't had very much with that, no.
02:21:52.000 Wow!
02:21:52.000 That's so crazy.
02:21:53.000 That seems like it would be right up your alley.
02:21:55.000 You'd think so.
02:21:57.000 Yeah, I haven't experimented with it.
02:22:00.000 Have you been interested at all?
02:22:03.000 Not really.
02:22:04.000 I find that the substances seem to reliably do it, but yeah, I should look into it.
02:22:14.000 I'm a big fan.
02:22:15.000 Are you?
02:22:15.000 Oh yeah, even just for relaxation, just for the body.
02:22:18.000 You do it in conjunction with psychedelics?
02:22:21.000 Yes.
02:22:22.000 So in that sense?
02:22:24.000 Eating cannabis is my favorite one.
02:22:27.000 Eating cannabis and getting to the point where you're The way I try to describe it is when you're so high that you feel like the parallel dimension, the neighboring dimension is like a waterfall and you've got your nose touching the water and you're right about to push through the other side,
02:22:45.000 that's when you get in the tank.
02:22:49.000 There's a moment when you feel like you've eaten too much, like you had to pop around and you're like, this is not a comfortable feeling.
02:22:54.000 This is terrible.
02:22:55.000 I definitely ate too much.
02:22:57.000 That's when you should get in the tank.
02:22:58.000 Interesting.
02:22:59.000 And the complete lack of sensory input from the tank along with that just blows the whole experience out of the water.
02:23:07.000 I've had some of the wildest trips of my life from doing that.
02:23:12.000 The sensory deprivation tank on its own can put you in some crazy places, but But on its own, what it's really good for is relaxation.
02:23:19.000 It's amazing for loosening you up and just soothing the body.
02:23:24.000 And it's an excellent source of magnesium, too, because of the salt in the water.
02:23:27.000 It's Epsom salts.
02:23:29.000 So it's one of the best ways for your body to absorb a good amount of magnesium.
02:23:33.000 But it's one of the things that I've never understood why.
02:23:37.000 More people didn't get into it.
02:23:38.000 I know John Lilly was the inventor of it, and he used one on a regular basis.
02:23:44.000 I always wanted to know why that didn't catch on.
02:23:47.000 I never heard Karen talk about it either.
02:23:49.000 No, he didn't use it, as far as I know.
02:23:53.000 I don't know.
02:23:55.000 It's such an amazing resource because he was always in a silent darkness.
02:23:58.000 Yeah, well, exactly.
02:23:59.000 Taking psilocybin in near total darkness is kind of a sensory deprivation kind of thing.
02:24:07.000 That is true.
02:24:08.000 But you're still in your body.
02:24:09.000 I mean, you still are not in this amniotic place, you know.
02:24:12.000 Have you ever tried mushrooms in an isolation tank?
02:24:17.000 No, I have not.
02:24:18.000 Well, no, I have done it once, but I have not done a big dose.
02:24:21.000 I haven't done a lot.
02:24:24.000 That would seem to be a good place for it.
02:24:28.000 The problem is I have kids.
02:24:29.000 I don't want to be blasted out of my head in that thing and then have something go wrong and you open the door and reality just hasn't tuned back in yet.
02:24:35.000 You've got to plan your sessions.
02:24:38.000 You need somebody to look after the kids.
02:24:41.000 It's hard.
02:24:42.000 One of the things about cannabis though is eating cannabis. 1.00
02:24:45.000 If I get too high I can still deal with shit. 0.99
02:24:47.000 My adrenaline rises. 1.00
02:24:48.000 I get a phone call.
02:24:49.000 I can talk to people.
02:24:51.000 I can come back out of reality.
02:24:52.000 I can be okay.
02:24:53.000 Right.
02:24:54.000 And that, combined with the sensory depth tank, it's a pretty profound experience.
02:25:01.000 But I think, probably, if you were into silent dark...
02:25:03.000 The thing about psilocybin, though, is that it pulls you out so much, You almost don't even need a sensory depth tank.
02:25:09.000 It's almost like unnecessary.
02:25:11.000 That's unnecessary.
02:25:12.000 Yeah.
02:25:13.000 But by itself...
02:25:14.000 But it would be interesting.
02:25:15.000 It would be interesting.
02:25:16.000 If you're experienced with those things, you go first.
02:25:20.000 I'll follow.
02:25:21.000 Yeah.
02:25:22.000 Well, I have one.
02:25:23.000 I have one in my basement.
02:25:24.000 So I like to use it.
02:25:26.000 I use it all the time.
02:25:27.000 But even just, like I said, by itself, just for relaxation.
02:25:30.000 But I just never understood why more people didn't want to have that just as a meditation tool, as a tool for completely getting alone with your thoughts and just separating yourself from any of the input of the body.
02:25:43.000 It seems that it would be useful.
02:25:45.000 But Terrence wasn't into that, but he was in the pot.
02:25:48.000 On a serious, regular basis.
02:25:51.000 Oh God, yes.
02:25:54.000 A man had the capacity for cannabis that I've never seen in anyone else.
02:26:00.000 Is that part of the reason why he went on these rambling lectures, these incredible...
02:26:08.000 I mean, he would wind him up And some of the great mp3s that are available on the Psychedelic Salon.
02:26:14.000 Are you familiar with the Psychedelic Salon?
02:26:16.000 Great podcast.
02:26:17.000 And Lorenzo, the guy who hosts it, has just hour upon hour of Terence's lectures.
02:26:22.000 Amazing, amazing stuff.
02:26:24.000 But what was incredible was that he would just...
02:26:28.000 Go up there and wind them up, put them on the stage, put them in front of the microphone, and he would just go on for hours and hours and hours.
02:26:35.000 He could just wrap it out.
02:26:37.000 And yeah, it was.
02:26:38.000 I mean, I'm sure he would credit cannabis for a lot of that, you know, his inspiration.
02:26:45.000 What he was doing was essentially what he used to do.
02:26:50.000 I mean, back before anybody knew about him or us or whatever, Back in the Berkeley days, in the 60s, he loved nothing more than to get a bunch of people in a room, pass around You know,
02:27:25.000 a lot of people, they smoke A lot of cannabis, they get quiet, right?
02:27:29.000 I'm one of those.
02:27:30.000 I can't rap on cannabis very well.
02:27:33.000 But he just, he could do it.
02:27:36.000 And then he found not only, you know, if it works for a bedroom full of people on his, you know, in his hippie crash pad on Telegraph Avenue, it'll work for audiences all over the world.
02:27:47.000 So he turned it into Thank God he did as well because those recordings and the books and the lectures,
02:28:04.000 those experiences changed The entire direction of a lot of people's lives, including mine.
02:28:11.000 Absolutely mine.
02:28:12.000 The first time I did DMT, I literally heard him saying something in the DMT trip.
02:28:18.000 I heard his voice saying something.
02:28:21.000 It was just...
02:28:23.000 His impact, I think, is...
02:28:28.000 It was unbelievably profound, that ability to relay those thoughts in this really compelling way.
02:28:35.000 I mean, I can't tell you how many gigs I've gone on, where I had to travel or I had to drive, and I just listened to a psychedelic salon, listened to one of the lectures.
02:28:45.000 So compelling and fascinating, and I think that opens up completely new lines of thinking for a lot of people.
02:28:51.000 It does.
02:28:52.000 And, you know, it's interesting, The currency that this has, he's still out there.
02:28:59.000 He's achieved this weird kind of immortality on the net.
02:29:03.000 What he said, when you think about most of this was early 90s stuff when he was talking about this, but you can put a tape on, and it's just as timely as though it were uttered yesterday.
02:29:16.000 He has this real feeling for...
02:29:19.000 The future.
02:29:20.000 And people come up to me, a lot of young people come up to me and said, everything I learned, I learned from Terrence McKenna.
02:29:29.000 And it was like, before that, my life was empty and now I understand.
02:29:34.000 And you look at these people and you say, they couldn't have been more than...
02:29:38.000 Eight, or seven or eight, when he was at the height of his career.
02:29:43.000 You know, these people, some of them were in diapers when he was, you know, at the height of his career.
02:29:49.000 So they discovered him later, somehow, and he still had this impact.
02:29:53.000 Well, it's because it's so compelling.
02:29:55.000 It's a completely viral thing.
02:29:57.000 There's a lot of different people that have a lot of different ideas, but for whatever reason, it wasn't compelling.
02:30:03.000 I think one of the great things that you're doing in this book is you're not sugarcoating anything.
02:30:11.000 The way you describe your brother is obviously with great love and respect and admiration, but also great honesty.
02:30:18.000 And I think that's very important.
02:30:20.000 I think it's really, really important for recognizing his true contributions and recognizing that, like all of us, he's a human being who is experimenting with all these ideas.
02:30:30.000 And sometimes they weren't correct, but that's the only way you get to those ideas.
02:30:34.000 They have to sort of evolve and form and you have to keep playing with them.
02:30:38.000 In the nature of that, in the nature of full disclosure, if there's any glaring errors that he had made that people have either repeated or that they have misinformation because of these glaring errors, what would it be?
02:30:54.000 What glaring errors did he make?
02:30:57.000 Or any errors that deserve mention.
02:31:02.000 Well, I don't know.
02:31:04.000 I'd have to think about it.
02:31:06.000 You know, it is an effort to depict him honestly.
02:31:11.000 I hope that people don't...
02:31:13.000 I hope that people see that.
02:31:15.000 You obviously do.
02:31:16.000 I loved him a great deal.
02:31:19.000 I respected him a great deal.
02:31:22.000 But we had our rivalries.
02:31:25.000 Like all brothers, we had our sibling rivalries.
02:31:29.000 I loved him deeply.
02:31:32.000 I hated him deeply.
02:31:34.000 That kind of dynamic goes on.
02:31:36.000 Well, when you said earlier that he would say something, and you said, well, that didn't make any sense, and you contradicted what you said earlier, do you have any specific...
02:31:45.000 Well, he would always respond to that.
02:31:47.000 He didn't like me to go to his seminars so much because I was the only one that would ever challenge him.
02:31:52.000 Everyone else is listening in sort of slack-jawed fascination of his uttering these completely wild ideas.
02:32:01.000 And I was the only one who would really ever get up and say, well, what you said 20 minutes ago doesn't make any sense and it contradicts what you say now.
02:32:10.000 He would respond with, well, consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, right?
02:32:16.000 Just totally dismiss, you know?
02:32:19.000 What a great quote!
02:32:21.000 Oh, that's my new message board quote.
02:32:24.000 Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.
02:32:27.000 I think he was quoting Walt Whitman when he said that.
02:32:30.000 That's a great quote.
02:32:32.000 So the thing is, Terrence...
02:32:35.000 He liked to have fun with ideas.
02:32:38.000 In some ways, people took him too seriously.
02:32:43.000 There was a tendency on the part of some of his constituents to view him as a guru or even a cult figure to a certain extent.
02:32:55.000 I think he rejected all that.
02:32:57.000 He didn't want to be a guru.
02:32:59.000 He didn't see himself as a guru.
02:33:02.000 He wanted to stimulate people to Think for themselves.
02:33:08.000 That was the thing.
02:33:10.000 Don't believe me, but okay, here's a whole bunch of really crazy ideas.
02:33:15.000 There's a great video with a bunch of images and Terrence's words, culture is your enemy.
02:33:21.000 Have you ever?
02:33:21.000 Culture is not your friend.
02:33:23.000 Yes, culture is not your friend.
02:33:24.000 Culture is not your friend.
02:33:25.000 It's very quick, but it's so powerful, even to this day.
02:33:28.000 It really...
02:33:29.000 It's so powerful that you can listen to it and then watch CNN and not be affected.
02:33:34.000 You can reassess the impact of modern media.
02:33:38.000 Yeah, exactly.
02:33:39.000 And that's a very valuable one because, in fact, culture isn't your friend and a lot of what...
02:33:49.000 What Terence's point, again, think for yourself.
02:33:52.000 Don't believe what anybody tells you.
02:33:55.000 And psychedelics are a challenge to that.
02:33:59.000 All these people that dismiss the psychedelic experience, as you rightly point out, they haven't had it.
02:34:05.000 Or if they have, they didn't pay attention.
02:34:09.000 So...
02:34:10.000 So their opinions count for nothing.
02:34:14.000 I mean, they're like the people, you know, they're like the Dutch lens makers who built telescopes, but, you know, refused to look through the telescopes because that was a blasphemous act, right? 1.00
02:34:28.000 It's the same thing.
02:34:30.000 The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss.
02:34:32.000 It is available right now.
02:34:34.000 I have it in my hand.
02:34:35.000 It was all funded through Kickstarter because people wanted to get this information.
02:34:42.000 We talked about this about December in 2011, right?
02:34:46.000 This is when we first were in contact through email.
02:34:49.000 Have you already started?
02:34:50.000 Well, it took about 18 months to write the book.
02:34:53.000 I started raising Kickstarter money in April of 2011, and it's taken a year and six months to write the book.
02:35:05.000 Please, ladies and gentlemen, go out and buy this book.
02:35:08.000 It's fantastic.
02:35:09.000 It's the Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss.
02:35:11.000 If you have not subscribed, The Psychedelic Salon on iTunes. 1.00
02:35:15.000 Go subscribe to that shit. 1.00
02:35:17.000 Go and get online. 1.00
02:35:18.000 There's millions of Terence's lectures.
02:35:22.000 I don't want to say millions, but at least a hundred.
02:35:24.000 There are a lot.
02:35:25.000 They're available.
02:35:25.000 They're fantastic and they're fascinating, as is your book.
02:35:28.000 Thank you very much for coming on here.
02:35:30.000 It's been a real treat and an honor and a pleasure.
02:35:33.000 I enjoyed every second of our conversation.
02:35:36.000 If you ever want to do it again. 0.99
02:35:37.000 And we'll push this fucking thing till they run out of paper. 0.98
02:35:40.000 I should mention where it is. 0.99
02:35:42.000 The easiest way to get it is Amazon.
02:35:45.000 There's e-books and the softcover books are on Amazon.
02:35:49.000 You can order them.
02:35:50.000 Yes!
02:35:50.000 I got one of those Kindles.
02:35:52.000 It's awesome.
02:35:53.000 Just download it.
02:35:54.000 Bang.
02:35:54.000 Well, thank you so much.
02:35:56.000 Please.
02:35:56.000 It's been a pleasure.
02:35:56.000 I thoroughly enjoyed this.
02:35:58.000 I did, too.
02:35:59.000 It's been great fun.
02:36:00.000 Yeah, it really has.
02:36:01.000 I think you blew a lot of people's minds, too. 0.57
02:36:03.000 I've got to go back and re-listen and Google some shit and think about some things, because it was awesome. 0.88
02:36:09.000 It was really a lot of fun.
02:36:10.000 Thank you very, very much.
02:36:11.000 Is there any way people can...
02:36:12.000 Do you have a website?
02:36:14.000 Yes, we have a website, Brotherhoodofthescreamingabyss.com, without the the, and actually we're opening up a new website.
02:36:24.000 It exists, but we're completely revamping it.
02:36:27.000 So that's already online.
02:36:30.000 And just the other day, I launched DennisJMcKenna.com.
02:36:34.000 Ah, there we go.
02:36:36.000 You're on Twitter?
02:36:36.000 Are you on Twitter?
02:36:38.000 Resisting.
02:36:39.000 I am, according to my daughter, but I can't access it yet.
02:36:43.000 Oh, you're one of those guys.
02:36:45.000 No, I'm not.
02:36:45.000 One of those guys, ladies and gentlemen.
02:36:48.000 Resisting change.
02:36:49.000 That's right.
02:36:50.000 Resisting change.
02:36:51.000 That change.
02:36:53.000 She'll get me onto it.
02:36:54.000 There's something wrong with the password.
02:36:56.000 I don't know.
02:36:57.000 Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much.
02:36:59.000 Of course, we will be back this week.
02:37:03.000 We'll be back tomorrow with the great Honey Honey band who will be appearing at the end of the world show.
02:37:24.000 We'll try to do it live.
02:37:25.000 If not, it'll be recorded to Vimeo.
02:37:27.000 But we're going to try to do a podcast upstairs and do a comedy show downstairs.
02:37:31.000 Joey Diaz will be there.
02:37:33.000 Joey Diaz.
02:37:34.000 Most likely me.
02:37:35.000 Most likely you.
02:37:36.000 I think I'm going to try to get Ari or Duncan.
02:37:37.000 I don't know if Duncan can do it.
02:37:38.000 I'll try to get Doug Stanhope if he's in town.
02:37:39.000 Duncan can do it right now.
02:37:40.000 Duncan can do it.
02:37:41.000 But yeah, I'll get some people together.
02:37:42.000 Some quality Death Squaders. 1.00
02:37:44.000 If you want to buy the t-shirts, deathsquad.tv.
02:37:47.000 This is actually a higher primate show.
02:37:49.000 It's actually based on Terrence's stolen ape theory.
02:37:56.000 It's a chimp with a mushroom in his mouth. 0.99
02:37:58.000 And on his left hand is a floating ohm, and the right hand is the symbol for nuclear energy.
02:38:04.000 Well, that's just lovely.
02:38:06.000 Come on, son. 0.99
02:38:07.000 And he's also got a third eye with some geometric shit coming out of it. 0.99
02:38:12.000 I'll get you one of these. 0.98
02:38:13.000 Would you rock it?
02:38:14.000 Oh, you bet. 1.00
02:38:15.000 If we take a picture of you wearing this, we'll sell a fucking thousand of these bitches. 1.00
02:38:19.000 Okay. 1.00
02:38:19.000 Alright, listen. 1.00
02:38:20.000 Thank you very much.
02:38:21.000 If you ever need anything promoted, please let us know.
02:38:23.000 And again, one more time, folks.
02:38:25.000 The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss.
02:38:26.000 We will be back tomorrow with Honey Honey.
02:38:29.000 We'll be back Tuesday with Joey Coco Diaz.
02:38:31.000 And that's our 300th episode.
02:38:32.000 That's our 300th episode. 1.00
02:38:34.000 Oh, shit, bitches. 1.00
02:38:35.000 So that's a great way to do it. 1.00
02:38:37.000 Alright, we love the shit out of you guys. 0.88
02:38:38.000 And we'll see you tomorrow.
02:38:39.000 Bye-bye.
02:38:50.000 you