The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #864 - Kevin Ross & Gaston Bolanos

00:00:00.000 We're live.

00:00:00.000 What's up?

00:00:01.000 What's up, brother?

00:00:01.000 Boys!

00:00:02.000 What's up, man?

00:00:02.000 So nice to have you guys on, man.

00:00:04.000 It's nice, first of all, to...

00:00:06.000 It's nice to have you guys in studio, but it's nice to have Muay Thai, which I've been a giant fan of for so long.

00:00:15.000 I feel like it's starting to get more ground in America, and we've done our best to try to promote it as much as possible on here.

00:00:21.000 And it's been frustrating for the longest time for me watching...

00:00:26.000 What I think is one of the most exciting combat sports in the world and sort of kind of slip under the radar when golf is taking off. 0.99

00:00:33.000 Fucking golf's everywhere. 0.92

00:00:35.000 They had Scrabble on ESPN one time and that was just gut-wrenching. 1.00

00:00:40.000 They had Scrabble?

00:00:40.000 Yeah.

00:00:41.000 Well, it is a sport.

00:00:42.000 There's a lot of training involved.

00:00:44.000 Hey, man.

00:00:45.000 It's brutal.

00:00:45.000 But to see that and then to see us just with nothing, no coverage whatsoever for so long and, you know, it's finally on TV but still relatively under the radar.

00:00:55.000 It's tough to watch, but knowing that it's going to be there eventually, it's just a matter of time, you know?

00:01:00.000 So it's nice.

00:01:01.000 Every time we take another step, like when it got on AXS TV, it was such a giant leap compared to where it was prior to that.

00:01:08.000 So what's coming next?

00:01:10.000 What's coming next?

00:01:11.000 It's just a matter of time and the right people coming along doing the right things.

00:01:14.000 One can only hope.

00:01:17.000 We talked about this today, but Dana White had a point that I think he's probably right about, is that in a lot of people's eyes in America, kickboxing got kind of poisoned with that whole PKA karate stuff that was on in like the 80s or the 90s.

00:01:31.000 Yeah, it put a bad taste in people's mouths.

00:01:33.000 So it's hard to break free from that mentality of you think kickboxing, you think Muay Thai, you think pants fighting.

00:01:39.000 Yes.

00:01:41.000 Yeah, I remember...

00:01:42.000 And the shoes and everything.

00:01:43.000 The shoes, the booties.

00:01:44.000 Everybody thinks, oh, you do that thing with the pants and the shoes, you know?

00:01:47.000 I took a buddy of mine who was a...

00:01:49.000 He was the producer of Fear Factor, actually, my friend David.

00:01:52.000 I took him to some Muay Thai fights in Burbank.

00:01:55.000 This was a local show that was at some hotel.

00:01:56.000 You know, they just had a ballroom.

00:01:58.000 And this was back when... 0.99

00:02:02.000 God, who the fuck was fighting on that card? 0.99

00:02:05.000 I'll remember. 1.00

00:02:06.000 I'll remember.

00:02:06.000 But some good names, some really good fighters.

00:02:09.000 This was back in 2001, 2002. And he had never seen Muay Thai before.

00:02:14.000 He really had no idea what to expect.

00:02:16.000 And he was like, oh, when they kick the legs, it makes a big difference. 0.96

00:02:20.000 I was like, yeah, it makes a fucking huge difference.

00:02:23.000 Well, every time you have to, somebody asks you, so what's Muay Thai? 0.88

00:02:26.000 I feel so, I really dislike when I have to sit.

00:02:30.000 It's like kickboxing with elbows and knees.

00:02:32.000 I die a little bit inside every time I have to say that.

00:02:34.000 It's a matter of how long you want to sit there and talk to this person.

00:02:37.000 Because you can be like, no, it's actually this, this, that.

00:02:39.000 So sometimes it's like, is it like kickboxing?

00:02:41.000 Yeah, see you later.

00:02:42.000 With elbows and knees.

00:02:45.000 It's hard to explain it.

00:02:47.000 Kickboxing looks the same when you're looking at it.

00:02:49.000 Like if you're watching Glory, it looks the same.

00:02:51.000 And then when people talk about it, like I've had people over watching the fights, they go, wait a minute, this isn't Muay Thai?

00:02:56.000 Well, it's real close.

00:02:59.000 It's like on the door.

00:03:00.000 It's like the difference between American football and rugby.

00:03:03.000 Like they're similar, they're running, there's a ball, but they're not the same whatsoever.

00:03:07.000 They're two different sports.

00:03:09.000 Is it that dissimilar?

00:03:10.000 I just think it is, yeah.

00:03:11.000 Completely.

00:03:12.000 Because it's a completely different pace.

00:03:14.000 It's a completely different mentality.

00:03:16.000 Yeah, you're limited on just a few weapons, which seems very minor.

00:03:20.000 But unless you fight it, unless you do it, it's night and day.

00:03:23.000 It's night and day.

00:03:24.000 Well, I would imagine that it would make, there would be a big adjustment.

00:03:28.000 For people that are listening that don't know what we're talking about.

00:03:30.000 Kickboxing, if you watch Glory or now Bellator, is having kickboxing as well.

00:03:35.000 And of course, K1 was really the first one to start it on a global scale and make these big, gigantic events over in Japan.

00:03:41.000 Kickboxing does not allow the use of elbows or knees and a very limited amount of clinching.

00:03:46.000 Yeah.

00:03:47.000 Whereas in Muay Thai, especially in Thailand, you see a tremendous amount of clinching and it's very technical.

00:03:52.000 There's a lot going on in that clinching.

00:03:54.000 And I've always maintained, I've been a big fan of Lion Fight because what Lion Fight is doing is giving you the actual pure Muay Thai, other than the dancing and the music and all the stuff that happens before in a traditional Muay Thai fight.

00:04:10.000 Yeah, they're doing a really good job.

00:04:12.000 And as you said, they've had to limit a few of the things in order to get it out there to the general public, which it's unfortunate.

00:04:19.000 You can't just throw it out there in people's faces with all the culture and the traditions, particularly here in America.

00:04:25.000 People would turn away from it so fast.

00:04:28.000 So I think at some point we'll be able to build up to that.

00:04:31.000 If you start slowly educating people on what that is and the history and everything and We're good to go.

00:04:50.000 I think?

00:04:54.000 It depends, really.

00:04:56.000 You know, different gyms, different people do longer and shorter ones.

00:05:01.000 You know, I do a very limited shorter one when I fight.

00:05:06.000 Well, I haven't done it in forever, but because of that, you know, and knowing that people don't really want to see it, you know, you kind of Americanize it and shorten it, where some of them, I've seen some longer wide crews than fights in the past.

00:05:21.000 What's a long one?

00:05:24.000 Five minutes?

00:05:25.000 I don't know if it's that long.

00:05:27.000 Borkout has one of the longest ones I've seen.

00:05:30.000 He takes his sweet time, goes down, does everything perfectly.

00:05:34.000 It's like a whole routine.

00:05:35.000 But then in those situations, people are very educated and they want to see that.

00:05:40.000 They want to see the beauty of it.

00:05:41.000 It almost becomes part of the entertainment, part of the fight, besides the fight itself.

00:05:45.000 But when you go see a professional Muay Thai match, I would estimate that 50% of the crowd trains.

00:05:52.000 They're very educated in what it is.

00:05:55.000 It's like baseball here in America where you don't have to play baseball in order to appreciate and love it because it's our pastime.

00:06:02.000 And that's what it is in Thailand.

00:06:04.000 Not everyone there is actively training or fighting or has fought, but it's so embedded in their culture that they just love it and they appreciate it.

00:06:11.000 Everything about it.

00:06:13.000 So to go to a live Muay Thai fight in Thailand is just, you can't even describe it.

00:06:18.000 I can only imagine.

00:06:19.000 It's on my bucket list for sure.

00:06:21.000 But in America, if you go to see a live event in America, half of the audience, at least, is either people from the gym or people that know people from the gym.

00:06:29.000 And it's sort of almost an incestuous kind of an environment.

00:06:32.000 Yeah, especially like when I was coming up, the only people that were there...

00:06:36.000 We're trained.

00:06:37.000 We're family or friends of the people fighting, you know, so that you weren't hitting this wider audience, you know, where now it is getting on TV and there are people seeing it who don't know anything about it.

00:06:49.000 And it's slowly building momentum and getting out there and getting a little more popular.

00:06:53.000 But it's just one of those sports where, you know, it's not for everybody and you got to...

00:06:58.000 Find the way to bring it to everyone.

00:07:01.000 It doesn't have this mass appeal.

00:07:03.000 The fight in itself does.

00:07:04.000 But everything that goes with it is very different.

00:07:08.000 It's very traditional.

00:07:10.000 The Thai style and then the music is very traditional.

00:07:14.000 For a lot of people, for whatever reason, they just don't have an open mind.

00:07:17.000 They don't want to accept that.

00:07:19.000 It's strange.

00:07:20.000 And like we were saying, watching it live compared to watching it on TV is two different things.

00:07:25.000 Yeah.

00:07:26.000 Yeah, there's nothing like it.

00:07:27.000 Even for me, I'll watch it on TV, and then I'll be there in person.

00:07:31.000 I'm like, geez, man, like, why do people do this?

00:07:34.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, I do this too.

00:07:36.000 But it's with any combat sport.

00:07:38.000 When you're there live, you can feel it.

00:07:40.000 You feel the energy in the air.

00:07:41.000 You feel the impact.

00:07:43.000 As opposed to watching it on TV, which is still great, but nothing compares to being there in person, particularly Muay Thai.

00:07:49.000 It's just brutal.

00:07:50.000 Yeah, I agree.

00:07:51.000 And there's something about it when you're not hearing any commentary, you're just literally feeling the slap of the shins. 0.99

00:07:57.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:07:58.000 Bone to bone.

00:07:59.000 Yeah.

00:07:59.000 It just makes you cringe.

00:08:00.000 I was in LA a couple years back when they had that big pro Muay Thai event. 0.98

00:08:05.000 They had a lot of big name fighters fight, and Buakau fought, and he apparently had some beef with some dude that he was gonna fight, and there was a lot of shit talk back and forth. 0.53

00:08:14.000 So he had this long Y crew where he was shooting arrows at him. 0.87

00:08:16.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:08:17.000 Do you remember that?

00:08:18.000 Yeah, that was the NPL, right?

00:08:19.000 Yes.

00:08:21.000 What happened to that organization?

00:08:23.000 Same thing that happens to a lot of organizations.

00:08:25.000 They try to go too hard out the gate.

00:08:28.000 They pay all this money for all these super high-level fighters, which, you know, you're...

00:08:34.000 Muay Thai fans are going to know who they are, but your general public has no idea.

00:08:38.000 And that's who we're trying to reach, is the people that don't know anything about it.

00:08:42.000 So those people aren't going to come out just because there's this high-level Muay Thai guy.

00:08:46.000 They don't know who this is.

00:08:47.000 They don't know anything about him.

00:08:48.000 They'd be more likely to come out to a local person because at least, like, hey, that guy fights out of California or whatever.

00:08:55.000 And that's been the biggest thing that's slowed Muay Thai down is these promotions try to go too hard out the gate as opposed to building it up, which, you know, you got to lose a lot of money and build these people.

00:09:07.000 With anything, you got to start, slow, and build people gradually, build the promotion, build the fighters, build your audience, and eventually you can get to that level where everyone on the card is like top 10 people.

00:09:18.000 But you can't do that from the beginning when you were just trying to grow and build.

00:09:21.000 Yeah, I remember I went to the event and Larry Merchant was there.

00:09:25.000 Remember the boxing guy, Larry Merchant was there.

00:09:27.000 A lot of people were there.

00:09:29.000 Ernesto Hoost was doing commentary.

00:09:31.000 And I was like, wow, maybe this is going to work.

00:09:33.000 It seems like these guys have got it.

00:09:35.000 Too big, too fast.

00:09:36.000 Too many big names right away.

00:09:39.000 I'm pretty sure they ran out of money by the second or third show.

00:09:42.000 It just didn't work out.

00:09:43.000 And that's where Lion Fight has been doing a really good job at growing their talent and trying to get better.

00:09:49.000 They're putting really good fights and really good matchups with guys from around here.

00:09:55.000 Well, the match-ups and the talent level is very high.

00:09:58.000 It's way higher than the credit it's getting.

00:10:01.000 It's like, you know, I watch...

00:10:04.000 I have a DVR in my gym.

00:10:06.000 I've got...

00:10:07.000 I mean, what number are they up to now?

00:10:08.000 Like 30-something?

00:10:09.000 32. 32?

00:10:11.000 I've got way back to like...

00:10:13.000 21 or something.

00:10:14.000 Just saved up.

00:10:15.000 And I can watch them all while I train.

00:10:17.000 And it's...

00:10:18.000 There's such high level.

00:10:20.000 There's so much good fights.

00:10:21.000 There's so many good guys.

00:10:23.000 It's so exciting.

00:10:24.000 And it's such a dynamic, technical sport.

00:10:28.000 And that's one of the things I think is probably...

00:10:32.000 It probably slips by some people when the casual observer is watching it.

00:10:36.000 Just some of the stuff that we were doing today, where you were showing me just the little shifts and variations and stances and little things like that.

00:10:47.000 When you train in it, when you try it, it makes the experience of watching people compete in it richer.

00:10:54.000 Because you kind of understand.

00:10:56.000 You're like, wow, this is very complex.

00:10:57.000 There's a lot going on here. 0.99

00:10:58.000 It's not just guys going, and just trying to fucking kick each other. 0.89

00:11:02.000 Yeah, and there's so many levels to this, and your casual fan isn't going to know that.

00:11:07.000 And a big problem a lot of promotions make is...

00:11:10.000 They try to cut corners and put guys out there who aren't very good, but both those guys are at the same level.

00:11:16.000 So if you're an average person, they're kicking and punching each other.

00:11:19.000 They might be very, very low level, but they just wanted to get some cheap people they could put on the air.

00:11:25.000 So they'll cut all these corners just to save some money, but in the end it hurts everybody because you're putting crappy fights out there.

00:11:33.000 Yeah.

00:11:33.000 You know what I mean?

00:11:34.000 Not good matchups, not very talented guys because you want to save some money, or they'll spend so much money on the main event and the co-main event that they have to cut those corners with everybody else.

00:11:45.000 And so you're putting these crappy fights out there, and you're trying to bring this new audience in, so people come and are like, this is terrible.

00:11:52.000 Why would I want to come to this?

00:11:53.000 You know, because they're bad matchups.

00:11:55.000 And as we were talking about Lion Fight, what they did from the beginning was they had quality matchups throughout the entire card, whether it was the main event, whether it was the undercard, whether it was the amateurs.

00:12:04.000 They were good, exciting matchups, regardless of the level.

00:12:07.000 And that's what really helped build them up.

00:12:10.000 Now, how long have you been fighting in Muay Thai now?

00:12:13.000 I started when I was 10 back in Lima, Peru.

00:12:16.000 And how old are you now?

00:12:17.000 24. I think it's really interesting you were telling me today we were talking about your training partner, Mazzetti.

00:12:23.000 What's his first name again?

00:12:23.000 Gabriel.

00:12:24.000 Gabriel.

00:12:24.000 Yeah.

00:12:25.000 Who just fought this past weekend in a lion fight.

00:12:27.000 You watch him. 0.99

00:12:28.000 Fucking sensational. 1.00

00:12:29.000 Holy shit is that kid dynamic. 1.00

00:12:31.000 And his brother is bigger, older, and even more aggressive. 1.00

00:12:36.000 That's incredible.

00:12:37.000 He's a lot bigger.

00:12:40.000 What's going on in Peru?

00:12:42.000 Like...

00:12:43.000 Man, my first coach, Rodrigo, you know, he had a vision of the sport, you know, when he first started.

00:12:50.000 He came here to train with Alex Gong at Fairtex San Francisco, you know, it was very small, but he went back and I remember I started training with him and it was, everything was so small back then.

00:12:59.000 Like, the amount of talent there is now, like, I mean, Kevin and Kieran saw it when we went to Peru last November.

00:13:05.000 Kieran's hiding in the corner over there.

00:13:06.000 He's here, but he's not here.

00:13:08.000 Yeah.

00:13:08.000 He was supposed to be on cameras.

00:13:09.000 I don't want to There was 150 fighters in the national tournament last November when me and Kevin were fighting.

00:13:15.000 It's crazy.

00:13:16.000 The amount of talent and how much is growing.

00:13:19.000 Peru is definitely going to be a powerhouse in the future.

00:13:21.000 Is it because of one coach?

00:13:23.000 Has the country embraced it?

00:13:25.000 Has it taken off in popularity?

00:13:28.000 It's getting a little more popular, but like I said, Rodrigo really helped.

00:13:34.000 He got together with the government so they could start helping him out and bringing guys out to IFMA and everything.

00:13:41.000 It's just crazy.

00:13:42.000 All these kids are really 16, 17, 18, 19 years old.

00:13:46.000 Really good kids.

00:13:48.000 It's just fascinating that that one part of the world is starting to produce a lot of really high-level talent.

00:13:54.000 And then, talking to you about it, you were saying that it's like soccer, and then Muay Thai is really coming up in popularity behind soccer, which sounds crazy to me. 0.79

00:14:02.000 Yeah, and then our soccer team sucks, so...

00:14:07.000 Everybody's trying to turn to Muay Thai.

00:14:09.000 It's really cool to see.

00:14:10.000 It's really cool to watch.

00:14:11.000 That is really fascinating.

00:14:13.000 Muay Thai is the predominant striking art in MMA. It's the most, I would say, probably the most successful striking art in MMA because it has all the elements of boxing and a lot of the elements of a lot of the other traditional martial arts, but There's something about the combination of kicks and elbows and the technical style of Muay Thai that really lends itself to MMA. And I think when Maurice Smith came along,

00:14:41.000 like Maurice Smith was probably the first guy who was like a really high-level technical striker who gave MMA a try and was showing everybody the effectiveness of Muay Thai in MMA. But for whatever reason, it translated to Muay Thai getting more popular in MMA,

00:14:59.000 but it didn't necessarily translate to Muay Thai getting that much more popular.

00:15:03.000 Yeah, it's one of those things that...

00:15:07.000 With MMA, it kind of helps and it hurts.

00:15:09.000 It helps in the sense that it gets it out there, but it can hurt as well when you're getting a bad representation of the sport you do.

00:15:17.000 So for a good stand-up striker in MMA, they might not be that great when it comes to real Muay Thai.

00:15:24.000 So you're saying, hey, this guy's got really great stand-up.

00:15:27.000 Well, he has really great stand-up for MMA. So people assume that's what good stand-up looks like in MMA. Muay Thai or traditional stand-up art.

00:15:37.000 So it's the pros and cons of it getting out there.

00:15:42.000 So it's tough.

00:15:43.000 Everything kind of helps as well as takes away from the sport, too.

00:15:47.000 Well, I think all martial arts make an adjustment.

00:15:49.000 They have to make a technical adjustment when they're being applied to MMA because you have to deal with the takedowns.

00:15:55.000 And even wrestling and judo had to make adjustments for Muay Thai.

00:16:00.000 Because as soon as you involved leg kicks and then knees, you know, a lot of guys were shooting for takedowns and they're getting knee to face.

00:16:07.000 Like that cyborg Michael Page fight.

00:16:12.000 Crazy knockout where his whole head got crushed from that knee.

00:16:16.000 Yeah, he had to do that surgery and everything.

00:16:17.000 Yeah, I mean, he literally had to have his skull put back together again.

00:16:21.000 The most brutal injury I've ever...

00:16:23.000 Have you ever seen one of those before?

00:16:24.000 Have you ever seen his skull get crushed?

00:16:25.000 No, I actually had my skull fractured, but not like that.

00:16:28.000 That was one of the worst things I've ever seen.

00:16:31.000 How did your skull get...

00:16:32.000 I got kicked in the back of the head, and the guy had a steel plate in his shin guard in China.

00:16:37.000 What?

00:16:38.000 In his shin guard?

00:16:39.000 Yeah.

00:16:39.000 So he had a shin guard on with a steel plate in it?

00:16:42.000 Yeah.

00:16:43.000 I mean, I didn't really think anything of it at the time.

00:16:46.000 You know, this was, what, like 10 years ago, you know, and we would just fight everywhere, anywhere, whatever, you know, and not really think twice about it, and...

00:16:55.000 So I fought.

00:16:56.000 He kicked me in the back of the head.

00:16:57.000 I got dropped, got up, ended up knocking him out.

00:17:00.000 Fought again the very next day.

00:17:02.000 What?

00:17:03.000 Yeah, knocked this guy out too.

00:17:05.000 And then when we got back to the States, I was having headaches all the time.

00:17:10.000 I just thought I had a bad concussion, you know, but like up to like almost like a month later, I kept seeing these like flashes of light.

00:17:17.000 Anytime someone would ever touch me, you know, I'd be working with like little kids or girls and smaller people and just them touching me, I'd get this like jolt and you know, it was kind of freaking me out.

00:17:26.000 And I was getting ready for another fight and I had to get my MRI or a CAT scan.

00:17:33.000 I remember what it was.

00:17:34.000 And they're like, yeah, you got an inch and a half crack in the back of your skull.

00:17:39.000 And they're like, I don't know why you're not a vegetable right now. 0.66

00:17:41.000 You should be. 0.95

00:17:42.000 They're like, if you even hit that again, it would probably kill you.

00:17:46.000 Doctors always say that, though.

00:17:47.000 Yeah, of course.

00:17:48.000 When was the last time you heard that?

00:17:49.000 If I get knocked out one more time, I'm dead.

00:17:52.000 If it was one inch closer to my spine, I'd be dead.

00:17:55.000 It was a pretty rough thing to happen, and I couldn't do anything other than hit the bag by myself for, I don't remember how long it was to let it heal.

00:18:05.000 But it was a...

00:18:06.000 So it just essentially had to close?

00:18:08.000 Yeah, on its own.

00:18:09.000 You know, it was just like, don't get hit.

00:18:11.000 Wow.

00:18:11.000 Don't get hit.

00:18:12.000 And I was getting ready for a fight, and I actually still tried to fight anyway.

00:18:17.000 But the doctor who diagnosed it was the doctor for the fights.

00:18:22.000 Oh, that's hilarious.

00:18:23.000 He was like, dude, you can't fight.

00:18:24.000 Get out of here.

00:18:25.000 How long after that was the fight?

00:18:27.000 After the diagnosis?

00:18:29.000 Like a week.

00:18:30.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:18:31.000 I didn't fight with a fucking engine. 1.00

00:18:34.000 He told you you could die. 1.00

00:18:36.000 That's just kind of the mentality I had coming up.

00:18:39.000 How old were you at the time?

00:18:42.000 25?

00:18:43.000 So you just felt invulnerable?

00:18:45.000 No, not really.

00:18:46.000 I mean, my mentality from the beginning has always been, I'm gonna fight as long as I'm breathing.

00:18:51.000 And, you know, I've gone into fights with some of the worst injuries ever.

00:18:54.000 Broken hands, broken skulls, broken faces, and that's just the way I came up.

00:18:59.000 You know, like, you're gonna fight no matter what.

00:19:00.000 You're gonna fight anyone, anywhere, anytime, any weight class.

00:19:04.000 And that's how I was able to get as much experience as I did.

00:19:07.000 Karrion's nodding back there.

00:19:09.000 Yeah!

00:19:10.000 Fight!

00:19:12.000 Fight good!

00:19:13.000 It was the mentality we had coming up.

00:19:16.000 This was that time when YouTube wasn't even out yet.

00:19:19.000 Nobody knew what Muay Thai was.

00:19:21.000 It was like, you've got to be ready to fight all the time or else you're never going to get any fights.

00:19:24.000 Right.

00:19:24.000 Where now it's like everyone's kind of looking for the big show or picking their fights.

00:19:30.000 Like a month is short notice for people.

00:19:32.000 Where us it was like an hour.

00:19:34.000 It was like, yeah, we're ready.

00:19:35.000 We're here.

00:19:36.000 Fight.

00:19:36.000 Let's go.

00:19:38.000 The time I came up was a different mindset than it is today.

00:19:41.000 And that's kind of the pros and cons of it getting bigger.

00:19:44.000 The bigger things get, you've got to take the faker people with it.

00:19:49.000 When I started and I was at fights, you knew every person that was at that fight I was a diehard Muay Thai fan.

00:19:56.000 There's no other reason to do this other than the fact that you loved it.

00:19:59.000 You're losing money.

00:20:01.000 There was no show to get on.

00:20:04.000 There was no television to get on.

00:20:06.000 There was no reason to do this sport except for the fact that you loved it.

00:20:10.000 It wasn't a question.

00:20:11.000 There's no reason to do this except for you love it.

00:20:14.000 With everything that's in you.

00:20:16.000 So everyone you met, everyone you talked to, every gym you went to, every fight you went to, you were surrounded by people that had the same heart and mentality as you.

00:20:25.000 Whereas now, you know, people are doing it for different reasons.

00:20:28.000 You know, maybe they want to get famous or they want to get Instagram followers or, you know, they want to look cool doing pad work.

00:20:35.000 And that's kind of the good and the bad of things getting bigger.

00:20:38.000 So you think that by the sport getting more popular, by more people paying attention to it, it opens up the door to more people doing it, but they just don't have the pure intention.

00:20:49.000 Of course.

00:20:49.000 And that kind of waters down the sport at the end.

00:20:52.000 It's interesting because there's a line, right, between where it's intelligent to fight injured, like with your broken head.

00:21:01.000 I would never tell anyone to do what I did.

00:21:03.000 Would you do it today?

00:21:04.000 Would you think you would be in the same situation today, or would you go well with weight, age, and wisdom?

00:21:09.000 I'm not going to fight with a broken head.

00:21:11.000 I'm not going to say it, me personally, but fortunately I have good people around me who would be like, look, that's not smart.

00:21:16.000 I'm like, yeah, yeah, you're right.

00:21:18.000 And again, it was in a time where if I don't take this fight, who knows when another fight's going to come along.

00:21:24.000 You've got to take what you can get when you can get it, and that's why I'm fighting people who outweigh me by 30 pounds, and just taking a fight on a couple hours notice, because...

00:21:34.000 There wasn't opportunities, so you gotta do what you had to do to get in there, to get experience, and that was the only way you were gonna get fights.

00:21:42.000 Was it difficult to motivate yourself during those times?

00:21:45.000 Because for a lot of people, motivation requires some sort of an end goal.

00:21:50.000 Not so much about...

00:21:51.000 It was more about getting fights than it was about what am I getting out of this fight.

00:21:56.000 So it wasn't about making money.

00:21:58.000 It wasn't about getting on TV. But there was a long period of time when I just couldn't get a fight to save my life.

00:22:03.000 And that's when I was highly considering switching over to MMA. Because everyone I trained was fighting.

00:22:08.000 They're fighting in the UFC. They're getting fights all the time.

00:22:11.000 They're fighting every month. 1.00

00:22:12.000 And I'm sitting here busting my ass. 0.99

00:22:14.000 And I can only get a fight or two a year. 0.99

00:22:16.000 There was a time I had over 30 fights fall through.

00:22:21.000 Yeah.

00:22:43.000 I've been fighting since they were 8 years old.

00:22:45.000 How are you going to fight against a guy like that if you don't get the experience?

00:22:49.000 You have so much to make up for anyway.

00:22:51.000 I didn't start until I was 23. You know what I mean?

00:22:53.000 I'm so late to the game.

00:22:55.000 My mentality was always, I'm always going to be playing catch-up.

00:22:59.000 No matter how good I get, I'm playing catch-up.

00:23:01.000 And so I've got to do everything I can, every way I can.

00:23:03.000 Maybe it wasn't the smartest thing, but I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't take those risks and maybe take those not-so-smart fights.

00:23:11.000 But yeah, there is a fine line between Putting yourself out there and being dangerous.

00:23:15.000 But I don't know where that line is.

00:23:17.000 Yeah, I don't think anybody does, right?

00:23:18.000 Different for everybody.

00:23:19.000 So I was always on that.

00:23:20.000 I'm like, I'm just going to do it no matter what.

00:23:22.000 Because where do you draw the line?

00:23:23.000 Do you stub your toe and you're limping a little bit?

00:23:25.000 Should you not fight?

00:23:26.000 I don't know.

00:23:27.000 Maybe.

00:23:28.000 But I'm going to do it.

00:23:29.000 Yeah, when you say you started at 23, was that when you started competing?

00:23:34.000 That was the first time I stepped foot in the gym.

00:23:35.000 You were 23?

00:23:36.000 No training at all in martial arts before that?

00:23:38.000 Zero.

00:23:39.000 What motivated you to get in there?

00:23:41.000 Well, the first time I ever saw Muay Thai was like 94, 94 or 96. They went back when ESPN used to play them late at night, like the old school fights.

00:23:53.000 I'd always thought about boxing and doing some kind of fighting, but I always loved martial arts, you know, and When I saw Muay Thai, I was like, that's it, man.

00:24:02.000 Because every other kind of thing with, like, kicking and knees was, like, taekwondo or point fighting and not that real boxing style of hardcore fighting, you know?

00:24:13.000 So when I saw Muay Thai, I was like, if I'm going to do anything, that's going to be it.

00:24:18.000 But unfortunately, at that time, I was too busy living in Vegas and drinking myself to death every day and partying, you know, and...

00:24:27.000 It was never one of those serious things.

00:24:29.000 So I never told anybody about it.

00:24:32.000 Because I didn't even know how serious I was.

00:24:34.000 Because obviously I couldn't live the way I was living and compete.

00:24:38.000 So I knew that if I was ever going to do this, I would have to completely stop drinking, partying, living the lifestyle I was living.

00:24:45.000 And I wasn't ready to give that up.

00:24:46.000 I wasn't ready to give up my friends and lose all these people.

00:24:49.000 Not to say that I would, but I knew that was a possibility.

00:24:53.000 And I only ever told one of my friends about it.

00:24:55.000 His name was Mo.

00:24:57.000 You know, I always figured people would laugh at me if I told them I want to be a fighter one day.

00:25:01.000 If you knew me back then, you probably would have laughed at me, too.

00:25:03.000 Like, what are you talking about, man?

00:25:05.000 Like, you drink every single day.

00:25:06.000 All you do is party.

00:25:07.000 And I told him, to my surprise, he didn't laugh at me at all.

00:25:11.000 He's like, why don't you go after it?

00:25:14.000 And I was like, well, I'm like...

00:25:16.000 I was only like 18 at the time, and at that point I thought I was way too old to start.

00:25:20.000 I'm like, I can't start now.

00:25:22.000 I can't start now and make it anywhere.

00:25:24.000 You know what I mean?

00:25:24.000 These people start when they're like 10. It's too late for me.

00:25:27.000 He's like, you should do it anyway.

00:25:29.000 If you want to do something, you can do it.

00:25:31.000 And he was born with a bad heart, and he ended up passing away.

00:25:36.000 And I promised myself when he died that I would do it.

00:25:39.000 I was like, I'm going to go after this dream, if not for myself, then for him.

00:25:44.000 Because he was never able to live, you know?

00:25:47.000 And unfortunately, his death sent me just in a really bad downward spiral, even more so than I was already in drinking and partying and all that stuff.

00:25:56.000 This continued on for years and years and through a month-long series of really horrible things happening, like friends dying or almost killing people, drunk driving, and myself getting pulled over, doing like 120 on the 215 in Vegas.

00:26:11.000 And for whatever reason, the cop let me go.

00:26:15.000 And that was just...

00:26:15.000 All these things happened.

00:26:16.000 It was this huge wake-up call for me.

00:26:18.000 And I realized that if my friend was still alive, he would... 0.99

00:26:22.000 Beat the shit out of me. 0.99

00:26:23.000 You know, he's like, well, you're wasting your life. 1.00

00:26:25.000 You're wasting this dream you have because you're too scared to do it.

00:26:29.000 But this dream, I mean, you had never even stepped foot in a gym.

00:26:32.000 So this is like a dream of you one day attempting to learn something.

00:26:37.000 Right, yeah.

00:26:38.000 That's a very crazy thing because it was always hanging over your head then.

00:26:42.000 Yeah, and again, it was that thing where...

00:26:45.000 I'm not going to be able to get anywhere in this, but...

00:26:49.000 I finally realized that where I get to isn't what matters.

00:26:52.000 How good I can get doesn't matter.

00:26:55.000 Me giving all of myself to this sport and dedicating myself to this is what really matters.

00:27:02.000 Where I make it to, I don't know where I could make it to.

00:27:04.000 I could be the best in the world or the worst in the world, but as long as I'm putting myself out there...

00:27:08.000 Why is that more important?

00:27:10.000 Why is the most important to put everything you have into it?

00:27:14.000 I've just always believed if you're going to do something, it's all or nothing.

00:27:19.000 I never wanted to half-ass it and that's why I knew if I was gonna do this I'd have to give up partying and drinking and hanging out with my friends and going out all the time and I wasn't ready to do that you know I've always been in that mentality of if you're gonna do something do it you do it all the way you don't do it at all because because you're sabotaging yourself and then you can just say oh I didn't make it because of this that and the other Right,

00:27:43.000 but what were you getting out of it when you realized that it wasn't really about how good you get or how far you go, it was about giving it everything you have?

00:27:54.000 A lot of it had to do with seeing my friend pass away at 18, you know?

00:28:00.000 There's no reason to ever halfway do something because there's people who don't get the opportunity to even attempt to go after these things because of whatever reason.

00:28:10.000 They might die.

00:28:10.000 They might have a disease.

00:28:11.000 They might not have all their legs.

00:28:14.000 And you can do this.

00:28:16.000 Maybe you can't be the great, but you can do this.

00:28:18.000 You can at least attempt this.

00:28:19.000 And you owe it to yourself and you owe it to them to give it everything that you have.

00:28:24.000 I always felt like I owed him something.

00:28:27.000 Everything to go after my life with everything I had all my dreams I need to go after a hundred percent because there's people that don't get to I'm asking this because I think this is a common theme with people is that when they're pursuing a dream or when they're attempting to do something they realize somewhere along the line that You're doing something more than just like trying to get really good at Muay Thai or whatever you know fill in the blank with whatever sport it is your I I was the expression I was used is that martial arts Are

00:28:57.000 a vehicle for developing your human potential.

00:28:59.000 And I think that until you have a really difficult task in front of you, like becoming a professional Muay Thai fighter, which is one of the most difficult tasks in all combat sports, until you have that task in front of you, until you go down that road and realize how much is actually required of you,

00:29:15.000 you don't know how much you can give to something.

00:29:17.000 And once you do realize how much you're capable of giving you something, and then you can give a little more, and then you can give a little more, and then you realize, like, did I give my all?

00:29:25.000 Did I watch what I ate?

00:29:27.000 Did I sleep enough?

00:29:28.000 Did I think about things the right way?

00:29:30.000 Did I get anxious when I shouldn't have?

00:29:32.000 Did I keep my mind clean?

00:29:34.000 You know, what was I doing wrong?

00:29:36.000 What was I doing right?

00:29:37.000 How can I improve?

00:29:38.000 And then it sort of trickles over into your life.

00:29:41.000 Yeah.

00:29:42.000 Yeah, well, in the beginning, as I said, for me, it's always been all or nothing.

00:29:46.000 You know, I didn't realize that at the time, but looking back, I can kind of understand the mentality behind it, is there's so many things that are going to come up that will deter you from going after it.

00:29:57.000 Maybe you get injured, or maybe you're not getting the opportunities, and if you're not in it, 100%, those things are going to steer you away.

00:30:05.000 Those things are going to make you quit.

00:30:07.000 People kind of look at people who have made it as if they just had this easy path and all of a sudden they're in the spotlight and they're a world champion and doing these things.

00:30:15.000 But it's like any person who's made it to a high level, whether it's an athlete or a business person, if you go back in their life and see the things they've had to do and overcome and the obstacles in their way, you have no idea.

00:30:28.000 And that's why everyone's like, well, they didn't have to deal with this, or they didn't have to deal with this.

00:30:32.000 You don't know what they had to deal with.

00:30:33.000 You don't see the obstacles.

00:30:34.000 Isn't that always a problem when you're watching something kind of condensed to one performance?

00:30:38.000 Of course.

00:30:38.000 You know, like, if you watch, like, Gabriel go out the other night, you look at him, he's 19 years old, he destroys that guy, what was the guy's name, Josh Shepard, who was a really talented fighter himself, goes out and destroys this guy in the first round, like, well, how hard could he have worked?

00:30:51.000 He's fucking 19. Dude, I was training that kid. 0.93

00:30:54.000 I mean, Kieran and I were training that kid, and I was running him to the ground every single day.

00:30:59.000 I mean, he's really good.

00:31:00.000 He's really talented already.

00:31:01.000 But I was like, you're in this position right now.

00:31:04.000 This is what you're going to do, and we're going to work really hard.

00:31:07.000 And I dedicated myself to him throughout his camp, too.

00:31:11.000 I mean, we were training together.

00:31:12.000 When I was fighting for my world title fight, and then he just kept training and going.

00:31:17.000 He's trained like three months for that fight, and that's why he looks so good.

00:31:20.000 He dedicated everything.

00:31:22.000 Do that.

00:31:23.000 Also, he's super talented.

00:31:25.000 Also, there's something about being 19, right?

00:31:28.000 Isn't there something about being, like, really...

00:31:30.000 What is it?

00:31:31.000 Is it a physical thing?

00:31:32.000 Or is it a mental thing?

00:31:33.000 Is it that you don't have as much responsibility?

00:31:35.000 I think it's a combination of a lot of those things.

00:31:37.000 Yeah.

00:31:38.000 Without a doubt.

00:31:39.000 But it's super rare that a guy is, like, 35, and then, like, how long has Gabriel been training for?

00:31:47.000 He wasn't even that good before.

00:31:51.000 He was good, but he didn't get that good until he went to Thailand.

00:31:55.000 He started taking really tough fights.

00:31:57.000 He's been training since he was 13, I think.

00:31:59.000 So think of that.

00:32:00.000 That's only six years.

00:32:01.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:32:02.000 It's very rare that a guy would be like 34 and then when he's 39 he's this motherfucker of motherfuckers like he is. 1.00

00:32:10.000 You know what I mean? 1.00

00:32:10.000 Like what is it? 1.00

00:32:12.000 I've always wondered like is it that life just you burden yourself down with responsibility and information and just life itself, relationships, bills, bullshit, stress, existential angst, the fucking grave calling, 0.98

00:32:29.000 all these different things. 0.97

00:32:30.000 There's so many variables.

00:32:32.000 You can't really pinpoint it on one specific thing.

00:32:35.000 And everybody's variables are going to be different.

00:32:38.000 We all have different things to overcome and deal with.

00:32:41.000 Just because I view yours as maybe they're not that difficult, I don't know everything he's dealing with.

00:32:46.000 He doesn't know everything I'm dealing with or have had to overcome.

00:32:49.000 But if I sat there and listened to his story, I'm like, geez, I wouldn't want to do that.

00:32:53.000 I'm sure it's a crazy story, but when you go back and watch Mike Tyson when he was 19, You see Mike Tyson hitting the bag with Teddy Atlas when he's 19. You just go, Jesus fucking Christ. 0.99

00:33:03.000 How does anybody get that good? 1.00

00:33:05.000 What happens from 13 to 19?

00:33:09.000 How is it possible that someone can just reach that insane level?

00:33:14.000 And it seems that it happens primarily when someone's really young.

00:33:18.000 I mean, I started when I was 10. And when I was 16, you can ask Karen, I felt invincible, man.

00:33:26.000 Much like Kevin, I would take any fight, any weight.

00:33:28.000 It didn't matter, you know?

00:33:30.000 I was 16. I couldn't fight as an adult yet because I wasn't 18. But we lied and said that I was 18 because I ran out of people to fight.

00:33:38.000 I ran out of juniors to fight.

00:33:40.000 So from 16 to 18, I was technically an adult.

00:33:45.000 Yeah.

00:33:45.000 And I was just taking as many fights, anywhere from 132 pounds to 147. Any fight that I could possibly take, I needed to get the experience.

00:33:54.000 And that's what I wanted to do.

00:33:56.000 I wanted to dedicate my life to it.

00:33:58.000 Do you think that that's possible for an older person?

00:34:02.000 Kevin, you obviously, you were still young.

00:34:04.000 You were 23. You're saying you were older, but a lot of people listening are like, God, 23, you're still like a baby.

00:34:11.000 You can still learn a lot.

00:34:13.000 I mean, relatively, though, for the sport, Kevin was old.

00:34:16.000 Yeah.

00:34:17.000 And I'll have people come up to me like, wow, I'm too old.

00:34:19.000 I'm like, how old are you?

00:34:20.000 Like 19. I'm like, dude, I didn't even start until I was 23. What are you talking about?

00:34:24.000 Because I think people just like to view things as an excuse.

00:34:27.000 Like, oh, I can't do it because X. Right.

00:34:29.000 But we all have something that we can point to and be like, well, I can't make it because of this.

00:34:33.000 Of course.

00:34:34.000 But there's people who have had that and worse and have made it.

00:34:37.000 So what excuse could you possibly have?

00:34:39.000 You're a very technical fighter.

00:34:41.000 You're a very technical guy.

00:34:42.000 Do you think that maybe there is some benefit in having started a little bit later, being a little wiser?

00:34:49.000 A hundred percent.

00:34:50.000 I think that's a huge thing.

00:34:52.000 That just because you start, you know, when you start when you're a kid, There's so much of it like you're just doing it for whatever.

00:34:59.000 But once you've matured in a certain way, like I started to, for only one reason, I want to be the best I can be.

00:35:09.000 I'm developed enough physically and mentally to apply these things to what I'm trying to apply them to, to be the best fighter I can.

00:35:17.000 Whereas, yeah, when you're younger, you're still growing and learning and developing physically as well as mentally.

00:35:23.000 Yeah, like, my first fight, I was 11, 10. Like, I didn't know what I was doing there.

00:35:28.000 I just knew, like, I kind of liked it, but I didn't have, like, a purpose to it.

00:35:32.000 Like, I just really enjoyed training at the time.

00:35:35.000 It was exciting.

00:35:36.000 It was exciting.

00:35:37.000 Right, and you had skills, you wanted to try them out.

00:35:39.000 Yeah, but I wasn't like, oh, I want to be the best in the world right now.

00:35:42.000 Like, that didn't come until, like, 14, 15, when I was like, I really want to dedicate my life to this.

00:35:48.000 Now, were you living in America at the time?

00:35:50.000 No, I was in Peru.

00:35:51.000 When did you come to America?

00:35:52.000 When I was 13. When you were 13. And did you go straight to CSA? Was that the first gym you trained at?

00:35:56.000 No, I started at Fortex, and then when I was 16, 2008, I met Karian.

00:36:00.000 And ever since, we've been inseparable.

00:36:03.000 Well, you guys have a very unique gym.

00:36:05.000 And it's... 0.99

00:36:06.000 One of the most important things for a young fighter is to find the right environment to develop and we were talking about that earlier today like you can get unlucky and Find a bad coach in a bad gym and you get all tangled up with that person psychologically and they become family and then you know You're kind of fucked. 0.55

00:36:24.000 Yeah, it's a very difficult break for a lot of fighters to make and Yeah, man.

00:36:28.000 Honestly, I've been truly blessed since I started all the way to now.

00:36:33.000 I started with Rodrigo, then Fairtex, I was with Johnson, somebody who Kevin still trains with to this day a little bit.

00:36:41.000 I've always had really good coaching since I started.

00:36:45.000 Another unfortunate thing is just because somebody's a great coach doesn't mean they're great for you.

00:36:51.000 You know, so sometimes you'll see these people, like, leave their camps and go to this really high-level coach who's had a lot of success with certain individuals, but that doesn't mean they're going to be great for you.

00:37:00.000 So I try to always tell people, you have to find what works best for you, whether it's a coach, whether it's your diet, whether it's your training schedule.

00:37:09.000 What works for me won't always work for you.

00:37:11.000 You've got to find what's best for you, and that doesn't always necessarily mean I need this great coach, because you guys might just clash.

00:37:18.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:37:19.000 Like coaches and fighting, it's very much...

00:37:22.000 It's like having a relationship with somebody, with another person.

00:37:25.000 You just might clash together, not work.

00:37:28.000 And it's also, what you just said is super important, about finding that winning formula.

00:37:33.000 Whether it's training, whether it's diet, whether it's coaching, and then gym partners.

00:37:37.000 I know you guys are fantastic partners.

00:37:40.000 You guys work together really well.

00:37:42.000 I've watched a lot of videos of you guys training together.

00:37:44.000 I mean, how critical is that to have someone who's an elite fighter that trains with you on a daily basis?

00:37:50.000 It's one of the most important things.

00:37:52.000 There's so many factors that go into building a fighter.

00:37:56.000 It's not just one thing, you know what I mean?

00:37:58.000 And that one thing needs to constantly be adjusted because the way I train today isn't how I trained even a year ago.

00:38:06.000 You continually need to be hopping back and forth on this line of too much and too little of one thing.

00:38:11.000 What's the difference between how you train today versus how you train a year ago?

00:38:14.000 I'd say the older I get, the more it's a mental approach kind of thing.

00:38:22.000 My technique isn't going to be altered that much at this stage, but the way that I apply them, the way I go about them, the way I think about them, very much is going to change.

00:38:34.000 At a certain stage, it's like you have all these weapons to use.

00:38:37.000 It's just a matter of which ones you use, at which time, at which speed.

00:38:41.000 In the way that you apply them, where in the beginning you're just trying to do things well and you're trying to almost put all these tools in the toolbox as your career develops.

00:38:50.000 But at a certain stage, not to say I'm not adding more, is that I have all these tools.

00:38:55.000 I need to figure out which ones work best for me and which ones work for me at which time against which opponent, which venue, which sport.

00:39:03.000 You know what I mean?

00:39:03.000 There's so many things that you can play with and adjust and Good and bad.

00:39:07.000 That was a huge thing I struggled with after my knee surgery was like, I almost forgot how to fight as myself.

00:39:14.000 You know what I mean?

00:39:15.000 Because it was like, okay, here's all your weapons.

00:39:16.000 Pick up which ones you want to use.

00:39:17.000 I'm like, I don't know.

00:39:18.000 I don't remember which ones I used and how I put them together.

00:39:21.000 And it took me a series of fights to find myself again as a fighter in the ring.

00:39:27.000 How much time did you take off because of your knee surgery?

00:39:29.000 Nine weeks, nine months in one week.

00:39:32.000 That was between fights?

00:39:34.000 That was between the day I blew my knee out and the day I got back in the ring.

00:39:38.000 You had ACL reconstruction?

00:39:40.000 Yeah, I completely threw my ACL. Which way did they do it?

00:39:43.000 Cadaver.

00:39:44.000 Yeah, I had that way.

00:39:45.000 I just talked to a friend of mine.

00:39:46.000 She had it done.

00:39:47.000 She was in Austria in a skiing accident.

00:39:49.000 They took some meat out of her calf, which I've never even I haven't even heard of before and reconstructed it.

00:39:55.000 Well, like, you know, there was those options, but I was like, I don't want to take anything else out of myself that might weaken that thing.

00:40:02.000 Like, I got enough to deal with now.

00:40:03.000 I can't weaken something else.

00:40:04.000 So for me, it was, and in talking to other athletes that have had it, it just, it seemed like the better approach for me, and it has worked best for me.

00:40:13.000 It worked best for me, too.

00:40:14.000 I had both knees reconstructed.

00:40:16.000 I had my left one done with a patella tendon graft where they take a big chunk of your patella tendon with a piece of bone from your shin and a piece of bone from your knee.

00:40:23.000 And it's fine, but that was like a year before it felt good again.

00:40:28.000 But the right knee, I have zero problems with it.

00:40:31.000 And I was training.

00:40:33.000 I was doing jujitsu again in six months.

00:40:35.000 Oh, yeah.

00:40:36.000 And it was with no pain.

00:40:38.000 Yeah.

00:40:40.000 There was no consequences for the injury.

00:40:42.000 Whereas the left one, still, where they'd cut the bone out, if I kneel down on a hardwood floor, I could still feel it.

00:40:49.000 There's a lot of people that are scared of cadavers, though.

00:40:52.000 They're scared for medical reasons.

00:40:55.000 Like, for me, it was more of a mentally a strange thing, you know, to have something of someone else's who passed away.

00:41:03.000 And, you know, that was just a weird, very weird thing mentally to kind of deal with.

00:41:09.000 You know how it works, right?

00:41:09.000 It's just a scaffolding.

00:41:11.000 No, no, not really, no.

00:41:13.000 What it is is they take...

00:41:15.000 Usually they use an Achilles tendon because it's much stronger.

00:41:18.000 It's actually 150%, I believe, stronger than the original ACL. They take that Achilles tendon, they put it in place, and then your body...

00:41:28.000 Reproliferates that tendon with its own tissue.

00:41:31.000 Right.

00:41:32.000 So that tendon is not there anymore.

00:41:35.000 Your body fills it up with cells because they reattach the blood supply and as your body starts, it starts using that to regenerate tissue.

00:41:43.000 Right.

00:41:43.000 So it puts your own cells, but in the form of a much larger tendon.

00:41:48.000 It's really kind of interesting.

00:41:49.000 Yeah.

00:41:49.000 That's crazy.

00:41:50.000 Yeah.

00:41:51.000 My right leg, which is the one I blew out, feels so much better than my left one does.

00:41:55.000 Like stronger.

00:41:56.000 That's thick, man. 1.00

00:41:58.000 They use a thick-ass fucking tent. 1.00

00:41:59.000 I mean, we have a shitty design. 1.00

00:42:01.000 Yeah. 0.93

00:42:01.000 The human body, the ACL in particular. 0.93

00:42:04.000 I'm just going to get everything replaced. 1.00

00:42:06.000 Well, as soon as you figure out heel hooks, as soon as people figure out heel hooks, you just realize, like, oh my god, my knee is, like, so stupid. 0.99

00:42:12.000 Like, who designed this? 0.95

00:42:15.000 Because all you have to do is get that heel here and, like, pop, it just pops off.

00:42:18.000 It's terrible, you know?

00:42:20.000 I mean, and it happens all the time in jiu-jitsu.

00:42:22.000 Guys get their knees blown apart.

00:42:24.000 That gives me nightmares, man, just watching that.

00:42:26.000 Yeah.

00:42:26.000 Yeah, well, it's, I mean, some guys get nightmares, they watch you guys kick each other.

00:42:30.000 I know.

00:42:31.000 You know?

00:42:32.000 I've blown up a couple ACLs kicking people.

00:42:34.000 Yeah, I'm sure.

00:42:35.000 Yeah, it didn't feel good, man.

00:42:36.000 Yeah.

00:42:37.000 I was like, God, did I do that?

00:42:38.000 Was it a planted leg?

00:42:39.000 Is that what it is?

00:42:40.000 Most of the time?

00:42:41.000 Yeah, I just, yeah, a couple tough guys that try to come in the gym, go hard, you know, and I'm like, alright, man, let's go.

00:42:47.000 Yeah, that's why I tell a lot of people, like, learning how to...

00:42:55.000 Yeah.

00:43:17.000 Yeah.

00:43:18.000 Yeah.

00:43:20.000 Yeah. 0.60

00:43:28.000 Have someone hold their hand up and you punch it.

00:43:30.000 Then have them move their hand just a little bit.

00:43:32.000 And you still try to punch it, but it doesn't feel good.

00:43:35.000 It feels good when they meet you.

00:43:37.000 It's like people hold pads and they slap you.

00:43:40.000 It feels good.

00:43:41.000 You hit it.

00:43:42.000 But if someone just kind of pulls away a little bit, so much of the punch is diminished.

00:43:48.000 It really just drains the life out of you.

00:43:50.000 Because you feel like you're giving someone all you have.

00:43:52.000 And in your mind, you're hitting them.

00:43:54.000 But nothing is happening.

00:43:56.000 We have that winning, that big shield, you know?

00:44:00.000 And Kieran uses this sometimes to train us, like towards the end of camp.

00:44:04.000 It's awful because you're like giving everything you got to this thing and it's just...

00:44:09.000 So fat.

00:44:10.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:44:12.000 There's nothing coming back at you, so there's no reverb off your head.

00:44:16.000 It's like you're punching into a cloud and it's like, oh my gosh.

00:44:19.000 Well, I've seen some gyms that have that crazy 300-pound bag that just sits on the ground.

00:44:24.000 It doesn't even swing.

00:44:25.000 It just sits there and you wind up kicking that thing.

00:44:27.000 And I'm always like, man...

00:44:29.000 I don't know.

00:44:30.000 Is that good?

00:44:31.000 Is it good to kick something that doesn't move?

00:44:33.000 It's another one of those things where it's just a piece of the puzzle.

00:44:37.000 It's good to develop your power and stuff.

00:44:40.000 But yeah, if that's all you're doing, when something's moving around on you, it's giving you very different looks.

00:44:45.000 It's kind of like a...

00:44:47.000 Like we do a lot of technical sparring, you know, with no gear on and stuff.

00:44:51.000 If you have all these pads on and you have this false sense of security and then you get in there with someone who's got nothing on and it's just like you're kicking things wrong and you're catching elbows and you're messing your feet up because you haven't...

00:45:03.000 Learned how to place things correctly and where they need to go and where you maximize their damage and minimize yours.

00:45:10.000 Is there a point of diminishing returns though with a heavy bag where like at a 300-pound bag and you're kicking it, it's probably not developing your power as much as even maybe a 150-pound bag would.

00:45:19.000 Does that make sense?

00:45:20.000 I guess it just depends on what it is you're trying to do and work on and improve.

00:45:24.000 You know what I mean?

00:45:25.000 When you're hitting one of those immobile bags, what would you concentrate on primarily?

00:45:31.000 Power.

00:45:31.000 Power, yeah.

00:45:32.000 Just dig in.

00:45:33.000 Just dig in as hard as you can.

00:45:34.000 Because I know that's going to be right there.

00:45:36.000 I can close my eyes and hit this as hard as I want to.

00:45:40.000 I don't have to worry so much about my balance and my speed.

00:45:44.000 I can just blindly do this kind of thing.

00:45:46.000 So just dig in, work on just explosion.

00:45:49.000 Yeah.

00:45:50.000 But isn't there some benefit in the bag having some sort of a give, so that your shin is pushing?

00:45:55.000 Without a doubt.

00:45:56.000 A lot of times when I'm working on speed and movement and stuff, I don't really just try to crack the bag.

00:46:03.000 I'm just touching it, so I'll work on a much lighter bag.

00:46:06.000 And I'm just trying to work on my angles and the bag moving and targeting and those kinds of things.

00:46:11.000 But again, it's very specific in what I'm trying to do.

00:46:13.000 And there's not just one way to do this.

00:46:16.000 And then I think that's another thing that not a lot of people think about or apply is just like, oh, I'm just going to hit pads.

00:46:21.000 I'm just going to hit the bag.

00:46:22.000 But why are you doing it?

00:46:23.000 What is it that you're working on?

00:46:24.000 What are you trying to develop?

00:46:26.000 Because there's so many aspects to this.

00:46:27.000 You know what I mean?

00:46:28.000 Yeah.

00:46:29.000 But it's another thing that you just figure out over time.

00:46:32.000 Yeah.

00:46:32.000 Do you remember when the water bags were a big deal?

00:46:35.000 Yeah.

00:46:35.000 It was like a big thing.

00:46:36.000 There was a thick foam outer layer, then there was water in it.

00:46:40.000 That didn't really catch on, did it?

00:46:42.000 We have an aqua bag.

00:46:43.000 It's a little different.

00:46:44.000 It's a little thicker, like rubber.

00:46:46.000 It's good for power punching.

00:46:47.000 I like it.

00:46:48.000 I like it.

00:46:49.000 I like it to throw elbows at it, too.

00:46:50.000 Because it gives in on you a little bit?

00:46:52.000 I mean, not that.

00:46:53.000 It's very well put together.

00:46:55.000 So it doesn't give in as much as you think it would.

00:47:00.000 What are the misconceptions that you think maybe even traditional martial artists might have when they're looking at Muay Thai?

00:47:08.000 Maybe that's really one-dimensional.

00:47:11.000 I think we have this kind of...

00:47:13.000 We think about it almost like the...

00:47:16.000 Who's in Street Fighter?

00:47:20.000 Yeah.

00:47:21.000 Krio? 0.97

00:47:21.000 Ryu? 0.97

00:47:22.000 No, Saget.

00:47:24.000 So we think about that.

00:47:25.000 Which one is he?

00:47:26.000 The old school Thai boxer.

00:47:29.000 When you think about Muay Thai fighters just being this mindless, like we're just going to throw power at each other and just stand there and we have no thought or process behind anything.

00:47:39.000 Yeah, there's definitely fighters who do that.

00:47:41.000 And maybe to an outside observer, they might not see all the small...

00:47:46.000 Details and the complexity of the things they're doing, just because I'm standing in front of you not moving doesn't mean there's no thought behind it.

00:47:54.000 You know what I mean?

00:47:54.000 It's like I've learned how to use those head movement and footwork things on a very, very small scale.

00:48:02.000 So to me, I am doing a lot of movement and footwork, but to an outside person, I'm just standing there mindlessly just winging shots at each other.

00:48:10.000 So you don't see all the complexity that goes into it where I can watch it and view those things very well.

00:48:16.000 Is it one of those things where you're watching, like say, if you're watching an MMA fight, for example, where a lot of times when you're watching MMA, you're watching someone who's pretty good at a bunch of different things, but not maybe technically proficient at any of those things.

00:48:30.000 And you're seeing a lot of that, where guys are just kind of standing in front of each other and almost playing Muay Thai, right?

00:48:37.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:48:38.000 Definitely.

00:48:38.000 And as a high-level fighter, do you guys watch MMA and go, Oh my god.

00:48:46.000 I mean, especially, it hits me really hard sometimes.

00:48:51.000 Friday night lion fights, you're there live, and then you're watching whatever UFC or whatever other card there is on, and you're on TV, and it's like, oh my god.

00:49:01.000 Yeah.

00:49:02.000 But there is some good strikers in MMA. Sure.

00:49:04.000 There's guys like Barboza.

00:49:06.000 There's some pretty high-level guys.

00:49:08.000 Joana.

00:49:09.000 Joana's really good.

00:49:10.000 Sure.

00:49:11.000 Valentino.

00:49:12.000 Shevchenko, yeah.

00:49:13.000 But there's also a lot of different elements they have to think about.

00:49:16.000 Right, right.

00:49:17.000 Takedowns.

00:49:17.000 It's definitely like we were talking about earlier.

00:49:20.000 You've got to implement what works for you in MMA. Yeah.

00:49:25.000 So what works for you might not work for somebody else either.

00:49:28.000 So it's really tough.

00:49:31.000 It's different.

00:49:32.000 Now you, at 24 years old, you already have a very successful Muay Thai career.

00:49:36.000 Have you thought about doing an MMA? So actually, I just signed a deal with Bellator.

00:49:41.000 Oh, shit. 0.99

00:49:43.000 So I am making the transition up. 0.99

00:49:45.000 Not only with MMA. I wanted to do Muay Thai, keep doing Muay Thai with Lion Fight, but that hasn't worked out so good.

00:49:53.000 I'm going to be doing Bellator kickboxing and MMA. Why hasn't that worked out?

00:50:00.000 They're going a different route, so it's not going to work to promote an MMA fighter with Lion Fight.

00:50:06.000 Scott Coker has signed me, and he's going to be able to work both angles with me, so that's going to be really good.

00:50:13.000 Now, you're a guy who clinches a lot, and that'd be a great thing for MMA, but what about for kickboxing?

00:50:20.000 Are you going to do Bellator kickboxing as well?

00:50:21.000 Because I know Bellator is doing a really interesting thing right now.

00:50:24.000 They're kind of combining kickboxing and MMA on the same card.

00:50:29.000 Has anybody talked to them about abandoning the kickboxing aspect and just doing Muay Thai?

00:50:34.000 I don't know.

00:50:35.000 I've said some things to Scott about it, and I think they're just trying to establish that kickboxing side of their cards, and hopefully one day he might bring in some Muay Thai fights.

00:50:50.000 Maybe once the Bellator kickboxing can be more of a standalone...

00:51:01.000 We're good to go.

00:51:19.000 We're having both fights on the card, but eventually it'd be nice if the kickboxing can stand alone and then kind of develop from there.

00:51:27.000 Yeah, it just seems to me that it doesn't make any sense to eliminate elbows and knees.

00:51:32.000 Yeah.

00:51:32.000 It just seems kind of crazy.

00:51:33.000 Yeah.

00:51:34.000 But again, it's a different sport.

00:51:35.000 You know what I mean?

00:51:36.000 It is, but it's striking.

00:51:38.000 Yeah.

00:51:38.000 You know what I mean?

00:51:38.000 I mean, if you're kicking, why aren't you elbowing?

00:51:42.000 Why aren't you kneeing?

00:51:44.000 Yeah, I agree with you.

00:51:45.000 It's a beautiful...

00:51:45.000 I mean, I think...

00:51:47.000 The more complex striking gets, the more beautiful it is.

00:51:51.000 I mean, the more variables that exist.

00:51:53.000 Like, when I watch a guy like Sanchai is a perfect example, because he's such a wild guy to watch.

00:52:00.000 He fights in his own very particular style, and he's very light on his feet.

00:52:05.000 There's a lot of switching of the feet, a lot of kicks that you don't know where they're going.

00:52:10.000 You think they're going low, and they kind of come straight up and go high.

00:52:13.000 Kevin fought Sanchai.

00:52:15.000 Did you?

00:52:15.000 When did you fight Sanchai?

00:52:16.000 When was that?

00:52:18.000 11?

00:52:19.000 2012?

00:52:20.000 Yeah, 11 or 12. I forget.

00:52:22.000 August 2012. It was right before you moved to CSA. No, I fought Sagatau before I moved to CSA. How was that?

00:52:29.000 What was the fight in Sanchai?

00:52:31.000 I'll watch it, man.

00:52:32.000 It was amazing.

00:52:34.000 It was a great fight.

00:52:37.000 It's hard to describe what it was like, man.

00:52:40.000 I was so dialed in physically and mentally that...

00:52:46.000 I look back and I'm like, geez, dude, I can't believe that was me in there doing that.

00:52:51.000 It was just so...

00:52:52.000 I was in another mental plane, you know what I mean?

00:52:56.000 Everything was just firing the waves.

00:52:58.000 Is this it right here?

00:52:59.000 Okay, we'll watch a little bit of this while we're talking.

00:53:02.000 As long as we have it in the background.

00:53:04.000 I want you to see how Santai looks after the fight.

00:53:07.000 Cecil Peoples is a referee. 0.96

00:53:09.000 Yeah, he kind of screwed me. 0.95

00:53:10.000 Oh, yeah. 0.96

00:53:11.000 Who saw that coming?

00:53:12.000 Did he do that thing where he lifts his knee up and does the karate thing at the beginning?

00:53:15.000 I got to watch that. 1.00

00:53:16.000 That shit's hilarious. 1.00

00:53:17.000 How did he become the person to... 1.00

00:53:18.000 Cecil Peoples is a very nice guy.

00:53:20.000 I will say that.

00:53:21.000 I want to be a nice...

00:53:22.000 I want to see this.

00:53:23.000 There it goes.

00:53:24.000 He did that thing that he does.

00:53:26.000 That weird knee thing that he does.

00:53:28.000 But yeah, Sanchez is one of those guys, like, he doesn't fight like a traditional Muay Thai fighter, and he's the best Muay Thai fighter of all time, arguably, you know?

00:53:36.000 He's certainly one of them.

00:53:37.000 He uses so many things from different arts, and, you know, Taekwondo, and Muay Thai, and kickboxing, and...

00:53:45.000 Yeah, he's got that really sneaky left leg, too, man.

00:53:49.000 That left leg literally comes straight up.

00:53:52.000 Yeah.

00:53:52.000 And you have no idea where it's going.

00:53:54.000 It might be a front kick, leg kick, body kick, head kick.

00:53:57.000 I knew he was going to kick me.

00:53:58.000 I just didn't know where the hell it was going.

00:54:00.000 Yeah.

00:54:01.000 Well, he's really good.

00:54:02.000 Have you ever seen Lawrence Kenshin's breakdowns of Muay Thai fights?

00:54:07.000 What is the name of his?

00:54:08.000 He does them on YouTube.

00:54:09.000 Do you know what the name of his is?

00:54:10.000 I don't know.

00:54:12.000 I've seen one guy do a lot of breakdowns, and they're really well.

00:54:14.000 I don't know if it's his name.

00:54:15.000 I think Lawrence just does him under his name, but he's a really, really smart guy and really, really aware of Muay Thai and really aware of the complexities.

00:54:25.000 And he did a breakdown on Sanchai and one of the things Sanchai setting up high kicks.

00:54:30.000 Yeah.

00:54:31.000 And the way he'll sort of test you with some other kicks.

00:54:35.000 And then he's got that really unusual way of throwing his kicks, too.

00:54:39.000 Where they literally come straight up.

00:54:41.000 Yeah, there it is.

00:54:42.000 But let's go back to that fight.

00:54:43.000 I want to go back to that fight.

00:54:44.000 I don't want you to change.

00:54:44.000 Oh yeah, I've seen some of the guys.

00:54:45.000 And that's kind of what we were speaking of earlier in the gym is...

00:54:50.000 It's just that one thing, his kick, but he has so many ways and variables to set that up as far as speed, and so he uses all these things to test you, and once he figures that out, you're done.

00:54:58.000 And that's how he's able to destroy basically everyone at every level of the sport, because he has so many answers to that one question.

00:55:07.000 You beat him, didn't you?

00:55:08.000 No, it was a split decision.

00:55:10.000 Split decision?

00:55:10.000 Why did I feel it?

00:55:11.000 Oh, Kieran's saying you won.

00:55:13.000 Some people think it is.

00:55:15.000 If I didn't get dropped, but not really dropped, won.

00:55:20.000 Oh, Cecil Peoples got you with a bad count?

00:55:23.000 It was a split, right?

00:55:27.000 It's kind of ironic having Cecil Peoples be the referee in a fight that's a Muay Thai fight because Cecil Peoples is one of those guys that says that you can't stop people with leg kicks.

00:55:37.000 That was like one of his quotes.

00:55:39.000 It was one of the bad decisions that went down where he's like, leg kicks don't stop fights.

00:55:43.000 I'm like, oh my god.

00:55:44.000 How are you allowed to even say that?

00:55:47.000 It's the unfortunate thing about fighting is you have people regulating these arts who have no idea about them whatsoever.

00:55:53.000 Well, that's a giant issue with the UFC. It's a giant issue with judging.

00:55:56.000 And I would imagine with Muay Thai, it's even more difficult to find competent...

00:56:00.000 Judges and referees.

00:56:01.000 You just can't.

00:56:02.000 You're getting boxing judges doing Muay Thai.

00:56:05.000 You're getting karate guys doing Muay Thai.

00:56:08.000 And these are the people who are basically controlling the outcomes of these fights if there's no stoppage.

00:56:14.000 Right.

00:56:15.000 And it's crazy.

00:56:17.000 It's crazy.

00:56:17.000 Now, in Thailand...

00:56:18.000 Wow, that fucking sneaky left leg he's got, man. 0.99

00:56:20.000 In Thailand, how do they approach the clinch? 0.99

00:56:24.000 Because you're seeing in this fight, like, Cecil is breaking you guys up almost immediately as soon as you tie up.

00:56:29.000 It's...

00:56:30.000 It's such a complex thing, too.

00:56:32.000 It's not just the fact, are these guys working?

00:56:35.000 Well, what are they doing?

00:56:35.000 If you don't have a deep understanding of it, you're not going to be able to judge it or ref it accurately.

00:56:45.000 Right.

00:56:45.000 You know what I mean?

00:56:46.000 So it's not just a matter of time.

00:56:47.000 It's not a matter of people moving around.

00:56:50.000 It's what are they doing?

00:56:51.000 Are they affecting each other?

00:56:52.000 Are they hurting each other?

00:56:53.000 Are they just mindlessly lifting their legs up to appear to stay busy?

00:56:57.000 Where if somebody doesn't know that, me just lifting my leg up, be like, oh, well, he's staying busy.

00:57:01.000 He's active.

00:57:01.000 Why are they breaking him up?

00:57:02.000 But I wasn't really doing anything.

00:57:04.000 Right, right.

00:57:05.000 A lot of times they're like, I'm going to let you guys work in the clinch, but you're not doing anything and they just let it go.

00:57:12.000 Not knowing when people are stalling out or trying to buy time or just moving their legs for the sake of looking like they're actually kneeing each other.

00:57:20.000 These judges and these refs don't have an understanding of that.

00:57:24.000 That's an issue with ground fighting as well.

00:57:26.000 Of course.

00:57:26.000 It's an issue with the UFC when certain fights go to the ground, whether it's judging or whether it's even refereeing.

00:57:32.000 Some guys are setting up certain positions and then the referee will come up and stand them up.

00:57:35.000 That is crazy.

00:57:37.000 They're working.

00:57:38.000 They're fighting.

00:57:39.000 But I think that in the clinch as well.

00:57:41.000 There's a lot of times they separate guys from the clinch when...

00:57:44.000 Two guys, if they're clinching up and they're both working to try to establish dominant positions, one is eventually, maybe, going to win that dominant position battle, and that's part of the grind.

00:57:54.000 Part of the grind is a guy imposing his skill set, his will, his conditioning, all the above, on his opponent.

00:57:59.000 And if you just get in and separate that because you want to watch a knockout, you're kind of diluting the sport.

00:58:04.000 And it's like I don't care how many fights you've watched or how many courses you've taken.

00:58:09.000 If you haven't done this before, if you've never fought before, you don't know what's going on in there.

00:58:14.000 And that's the problem.

00:58:15.000 You have people, even if they've been in the sport for a very long time and may have been around it for a very long time, if you've never fought, at least at some level, you don't know what's going on in there.

00:58:25.000 Yeah, you're seeing it, but you really don't know what you're seeing.

00:58:31.000 And you don't know how much of it is actually effective, and how much of it the guy's actually just absorbing things and blocking things.

00:58:39.000 It's so complex, and I think that's one of the things that gets lost about...

00:58:42.000 Fighting arts in general, but Muay Thai in particular, is all of the complexity that goes on.

00:58:48.000 Like, what you were saying, that a lot of people, the misconception is that they're looking at two guys that are just bruisers.

00:58:53.000 Yeah.

00:58:53.000 But what I'm watching here, I'm watching all this complex interactions of footwork and kicks and elbows and knees and clenching and knowing when to time things and dealing with a really high-level opponent who's very crafty and he's sort of...

00:59:09.000 Calculating all this stuff in his head as well.

00:59:11.000 Yeah.

00:59:12.000 Well, that's kind of the problem with there's only so much you can learn from a book.

00:59:16.000 There's only so much you can learn from watching videos until you apply those things.

00:59:21.000 It's like street smart and book smart.

00:59:23.000 If you don't have that street knowledge, your knowledge is very limited, you know?

00:59:30.000 And so I don't care how much you think you know.

00:59:34.000 If you've never applied it, Even just like sparring.

00:59:38.000 I don't care how much you spar, you know?

00:59:40.000 Until you get in there, you don't know what it's like.

00:59:43.000 Right.

00:59:43.000 I can only imagine.

00:59:44.000 You know, I think that's the case with a lot of things. 1.00

00:59:47.000 I mean, I even joke about golf because I think golf is stupid. 0.98

00:59:50.000 But I get the people that do it a lot. 0.98

00:59:53.000 Yeah.

00:59:53.000 To them, it must be complex.

00:59:55.000 Like, they must understand all the different aspects of it.

00:59:58.000 And I say that about playing pool, too, that it's an art form that's only interesting for people to do it.

01:00:04.000 And I think that's one of the things that's cool about going to, like, what I'm seeing here.

01:00:08.000 This is a small arena or small crowd.

01:00:11.000 Super small.

01:00:12.000 I mean, it looks like there's only, like, four or five hundred people in that whole place.

01:00:14.000 Yeah, it was tiny, man. 0.99

01:00:16.000 And so that kind of shit, I mean, look, here's you, world championship caliber fighter, fighting another world championship caliber fighter, both guys in their prime, and you're fighting in front of 50 people. 0.99

01:00:28.000 And making a couple books. 0.99

01:00:31.000 And it's super complex.

01:00:32.000 I mean, what's going on is this exchange, the interactions.

01:00:36.000 And I think one of the things about having guys like Lawrence Kenshin putting out these videos, and a lot of other people that have done these tremendous breakdown videos of Muay Thai, is that People that are fans, even if they don't train themselves, even if they just watch it, they can see things now that maybe perhaps they wouldn't have seen before and then appreciate what these athletes are doing.

01:00:56.000 There's a lot of people that watch football that can't fucking play football at all, but they can enjoy it.

01:01:01.000 And I think that you're seeing that in this, you know, and watching the, whoa, there's the, is that where he called a knockdown? 0.98

01:01:09.000 Yeah.

01:01:10.000 But he got right back up.

01:01:12.000 I mean, why was that a knockdown?

01:01:13.000 Because he got kicked in the head.

01:01:18.000 Carian, if you want to talk, you've got to talk on the mic, okay? 1.00

01:01:20.000 Look, motherfucker, I told you you were going to be on the show. 1.00

01:01:22.000 Why don't you get a goddamn chair and Jamie will pull up a microphone? 1.00

01:01:26.000 No, this is the one thing. 0.99

01:01:28.000 This one thing that's lost that hasn't been discussed is because Kevin doesn't talk about it, is to this day, and how long ago was this fight?

01:01:35.000 Four years ago.

01:01:36.000 To this day, this is the only time that the WBC has ever sanctioned a diamond belt fight for a Muay Thai fight.

01:01:42.000 What does that mean?

01:01:43.000 What it means is that in boxing, when you have two great fighters from two different weight classes that meet at a catch weight, they make it a diamond belt fight and they put real diamonds on the belt and it's the epitome of the WBC title.

01:01:53.000 Okay.

01:01:54.000 It's the only time in the history of the sport that the WBC made a diamond belt for a Muay Thai fight.

01:01:59.000 That's what a watershed moment this fight was for Muay Thai in America.

01:02:04.000 Okay, go sit down.

01:02:10.000 I get it.

01:02:12.000 No, for real.

01:02:13.000 I mean, and also just important because it's rare that you see guys of this caliber going at it like this.

01:02:20.000 I mean, it's a super exciting fight.

01:02:23.000 Great fight.

01:02:24.000 Where's Sanchai fighting now?

01:02:26.000 He's starting to do MMA, isn't he?

01:02:28.000 No, he was calling out Conor McGregor for a second.

01:02:31.000 Was he?

01:02:31.000 Probably just to get a little attention.

01:02:33.000 Yeah, I don't know.

01:02:34.000 They're always talking about stuff and doing stuff, but will it actually...

01:02:38.000 I mean, they talked about Bukow doing MMA for a long time because he was training a little bit, but is he going to actually do it?

01:02:44.000 I don't...

01:02:46.000 Well, what's interesting about TIE fighters is that they're really good in the clinch and taking people down.

01:02:50.000 Yeah.

01:02:51.000 You know, and really good at avoiding being taken down.

01:02:52.000 Yeah, well, a lot of people don't understand how much similarities there are when it comes to the clinch and wrestling and judo.

01:02:59.000 And, you know, I went and trained with the Black Belt judo team.

01:03:02.000 San Jose before I had a shoeboxing fight, and they just could not believe that I could hang with their high-level black belts.

01:03:08.000 And I'm like, well, it's all this kind of similar stuff.

01:03:11.000 Like, yeah, your setups might be a little bit different, but all the fundamentals that go in a Muay Thai clinch are very similar to...

01:03:18.000 It's just a difference of things you can and cannot do, but the base and the fundamentals of it go across the board.

01:03:24.000 Yeah, you see that a lot with sweeps and trips, and you see some really interesting trips and sweeps in Muay Thai that are very, very technical about manipulating guys, setting them up in one direction, then changing direction on them and throwing them to the ground.

01:03:39.000 It's really cool stuff.

01:03:40.000 Well, a lot of the stuff in the Muay Thai clinch is very similar to Greco wrestling.

01:03:46.000 You know, all upper body throws and stuff because we can't shoot in, but everything we can do is above the waist and those kind of manipulations and off-balancing.

01:03:54.000 And that's why, like, if I just do Greco wrestling, I do pretty well, you know.

01:04:00.000 And people are often surprised by how well my wrestling or jujitsu is if I'm just messing around doing it because there's so many similarities.

01:04:08.000 Right.

01:04:08.000 That makes sense.

01:04:09.000 Now, when you're watching fights in Thailand, the clinch is a very important part of the fight.

01:04:17.000 Whereas, a lot of times in America, when you're looking at the clinch, we think of it the same way we look at a clinch in boxing.

01:04:24.000 The guys are just stalling.

01:04:27.000 It's a way to dominate and show your strength and ability over your opponent.

01:04:33.000 If you can control someone and damage them and land these clean knees on someone, it's showing your superiority over them.

01:04:42.000 But again, like you said here, we don't have a We just view it as, oh, they're just resting, or they're not doing anything in there.

01:04:52.000 Right.

01:04:53.000 You know what I'm saying?

01:04:53.000 Now, when guys take guys down in Muay Thai, how much does that count?

01:04:56.000 How are they scoring fights?

01:04:57.000 Obviously, knockdowns are critical, but if you dump a guy a bunch of times, meaning you sweep him and trip him and slam him on his back, how much of a factor is that in a fight?

01:05:06.000 It should be a huge factor.

01:05:08.000 If they're scoring these correctly, because again, showing your balance, your dominance, and your control is one of the most important things.

01:05:16.000 So being able to throw someone on the ground and you're still just standing there is a huge scoring thing.

01:05:24.000 Is how you're doing it important?

01:05:25.000 Because what if you just get double underhooks and just crush them towards you and just bend them over?

01:05:30.000 You know, there's so many factors, man, that go into it.

01:05:35.000 And again, if you have a judge or a ref that basically has a very elementary understanding of this sport, they can't give you an accurate judge of this or an accurate reffing of this because they're not so...

01:05:53.000 Their knowledge isn't so deep.

01:05:54.000 Right.

01:05:55.000 You know what I'm saying?

01:05:55.000 It's like me watching a jujitsu match and trying to score it.

01:05:59.000 I mean, I can kind of score it, but I wouldn't be able to if I spent my life in the sport.

01:06:03.000 Right.

01:06:04.000 You know what I'm saying?

01:06:05.000 What I'm kind of getting at is their style points.

01:06:08.000 Style points?

01:06:09.000 You know what I'm saying?

01:06:09.000 Looking cool?

01:06:09.000 Something that's dope.

01:06:11.000 You hit a guy with a beautiful sweep and dump him on his back.

01:06:13.000 It's like if you sweep somebody and seamlessly do it and make it look like nothing as opposed to sweeping them and falling on top of them and you both lose their bounce, of course, yeah.

01:06:20.000 Yeah.

01:06:21.000 Yeah, without a doubt.

01:06:22.000 That's a weird thing to objectively call though, isn't it?

01:06:25.000 Yeah.

01:06:26.000 Judging is such a strange thing.

01:06:27.000 It's tough, man.

01:06:28.000 And I'll be the first one to admit that it's a very complicated thing.

01:06:31.000 I've judged five and I'm like, I don't know, man.

01:06:34.000 And then I'm trying to think of it from the mentality of someone that's never done this before.

01:06:39.000 Or only taking a course?

01:06:41.000 I'm like, how can you do that?

01:06:42.000 I have a hard time doing it.

01:06:44.000 And I've spent 15 years doing this sport.

01:06:47.000 You had a controversial loss in Lion Fight.

01:06:50.000 Yeah, earlier this year.

01:06:51.000 I fought Crumpet, tied with over a couple hundred fights.

01:06:56.000 That was your first loss?

01:06:57.000 That was my first loss.

01:06:58.000 Yeah, I didn't think you lost that fight.

01:07:00.000 I watched that fight twice.

01:07:01.000 They overturned it.

01:07:02.000 They did?

01:07:02.000 Yeah, after, yeah.

01:07:03.000 That fucking never happens. 0.98

01:07:05.000 18 judges from all around the world or something like that. 0.99

01:07:07.000 They can do that?

01:07:08.000 I guess. 1.00

01:07:09.000 Holy shit! 1.00

01:07:10.000 Honestly, I didn't care. 0.99

01:07:11.000 I still don't because I had a great fight and I put everything on the line.

01:07:15.000 I thought I did the best that I could.

01:07:17.000 I mean, there's some things that I think I could have done better.

01:07:20.000 It was a great fight, no doubt about it.

01:07:22.000 It was a close fight, no doubt about it.

01:07:24.000 But I thought you won.

01:07:25.000 And I watched it and I was like, hmm.

01:07:26.000 And then I remember Pat Miletic and Michael Ciavello were both saying they thought it was a bad decision.

01:07:31.000 And so then I watched it again.

01:07:33.000 I said, well, I'm going to watch it one more time.

01:07:35.000 And I was like, man, I think that was a bad decision.

01:07:37.000 And I remember now that you're saying that, I remember hearing that it was overturned.

01:07:40.000 I think maybe they brought it up on a broadcast afterwards during your next fight.

01:07:45.000 Is that what happened?

01:07:45.000 Is that when they brought it up again?

01:07:46.000 Maybe?

01:07:47.000 Am I making this up?

01:07:48.000 It was the next event.

01:07:49.000 I wasn't fighting on it, but they brought it up.

01:07:51.000 Oh, it was the next event.

01:07:52.000 And I was on the broadcast.

01:07:53.000 Is that rare that they overturn a fight?

01:07:54.000 Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm pretty sure it's rare.

01:07:58.000 Yeah, I never seen it.

01:08:00.000 It's such a tough thing, especially in a fight that wasn't like...

01:08:10.000 Right.

01:08:26.000 Unless you're in there, you can't even tell how much impact this is doing on it, how much it's really hurting you.

01:08:32.000 Right.

01:08:32.000 You know, from the outside.

01:08:33.000 And that's why it's very important, especially, like, for the ties to have that stone-cold face where nothing is affecting them.

01:08:39.000 Because you don't really know.

01:08:41.000 This person could just get crushed with a right hand, and they didn't even move or show anything.

01:08:46.000 Right.

01:08:46.000 It makes it very difficult for a judge to say...

01:08:49.000 Well, this punch should get this amount of credit or this much credit as opposed to just that pitter-pat stuff.

01:08:55.000 So, you know, it's a very difficult thing to do and to do correctly and accurately because there's so many variables and so many things you're seeing or not seeing depending on where you're sitting, how you're viewing it, if you're in there, if you're out there, if you're on the left side of the ring, the right side of the ring.

01:09:11.000 It's too complex a thing to...

01:09:13.000 That's why I could never say anything about a decision.

01:09:15.000 It's like, well...

01:09:17.000 It's such a difficult thing to do.

01:09:19.000 Unless it was so one-sided.

01:09:21.000 How in any way could you view this?

01:09:23.000 But if any fight is relatively close, I don't see how you can complain really about the decision because no matter what, sometimes you're going to be on one side of it and sometimes you're going to be on the other side of it where maybe you didn't win and they gave it to you.

01:09:35.000 One of the things I love about talking to fighters, and especially about putting on a podcast, is I think it gives people the impression of fighters, like a similar impression to what I have.

01:09:46.000 I think a lot of people have the wrong impression. 0.99

01:09:50.000 They have this impression that fighters are all, hey, I'm a bad motherfucker. 1.00

01:09:53.000 I'm out there to fuck the world and kick ass. 1.00

01:09:55.000 But really, the very best fighters are almost all very intelligent and very complex people. 1.00

01:10:02.000 Yeah, no doubt.

01:10:02.000 What you do when you fight, when you compete, is like a representative of your focus.

01:10:10.000 It's like all the stuff that you had to do to get to that moment, especially after you've done it a few times and you're aware of all the demands and you've risen to the occasion on more than one time and you realize all the variables that are involved in it.

01:10:25.000 It's cool talking to you guys and going over that stuff. 0.98

01:10:30.000 I think there's a lot of people that are listening right now like, these fucking guys are sharp. 0.97

01:10:34.000 There's a lot going on to this that I didn't think. 0.99

01:10:36.000 It's a thing that you don't see the whole thing sometimes.

01:10:40.000 Yeah, ever.

01:10:41.000 When it comes to fighting, you're viewing things.

01:10:46.000 15 minutes of something someone put their entire life into, and you judge them on this very small fraction of a moment in their life.

01:10:56.000 And that's why fighting is one of the, I think, more stressful things.

01:11:01.000 Sporting things you can do because we put so much into such a little thing that is viewed and this is the only thing we're judged on.

01:11:09.000 We're not judged by how hard we train or how much we kill ourselves or the things we've had overcome in the gym.

01:11:13.000 It's like what you did on that day in that moment and how you came across means everything.

01:11:20.000 You know what I mean?

01:11:21.000 Whereas other things, there's other ways around it.

01:11:23.000 And you're like, yeah, you could have a bad day, but tomorrow you're going to have a better day.

01:11:26.000 It's like, this is the day.

01:11:27.000 This is the only day.

01:11:27.000 And not the only day, 15 minutes or half an hour, whatever it might be.

01:11:32.000 It's not like football where there's a season and, okay, we'll make it up the next game.

01:11:35.000 You know, people don't really truly understand how much goes into this and how much we put into our camps and everything.

01:11:42.000 And that's why bad judges and bad refs is like, it's life and death. 0.96

01:11:45.000 Like, you literally have my life in your hands and you are incompetent.

01:11:49.000 I mean, even in the UFC, you lose three times, you get cut. 0.94

01:11:52.000 Sometimes twice.

01:11:53.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:11:54.000 Yeah, I mean, depending upon—there's a lot of variables that are involved in that.

01:11:58.000 But what fighting is to me, the way I always like to describe it, is high-level problem-solving with dire physical consequences.

01:12:05.000 And so when you watch someone who's absolutely sensational at it, you know, like when you watch an Anderson Silva in his prime, you see some guy who's just figured out a way through this puzzle in this really extraordinary way.

01:12:17.000 And there's a beauty to that that I think the people that really love and appreciate fighting can understand it and can feel it and see it.

01:12:28.000 And I always want to try to find a way to express that to other people.

01:12:32.000 Like, do you see what I'm seeing? 0.97

01:12:34.000 Because if you saw what I'm seeing, you'd be fucking freaking out just like I am. 0.94

01:12:37.000 Yeah, it's tough, man. 0.95

01:12:39.000 Especially, like you said, if you don't have experience in that sport or have trained or fought yourself...

01:12:46.000 You can't appreciate it as much as someone who hasn't and is just viewing it from the outside.

01:12:52.000 You know what goes into this.

01:12:54.000 You know how hard it is.

01:12:55.000 You know what it feels like to get hit.

01:12:57.000 You know what it feels like to have overcome these obstacles in training and preparing yourself for a fight.

01:13:02.000 It's not just this surface thing like two guys in the ring and they're fighting and it's over and it's done.

01:13:07.000 When you saw there was some recent event that, what was it, NBC or whoever was putting it into, they spent like hundreds of millions of dollars on boxing.

01:13:16.000 They had a few events.

01:13:18.000 They lost a shitload of money.

01:13:20.000 And then it's done.

01:13:21.000 It's out.

01:13:22.000 And it falls apart.

01:13:24.000 I've watched something like that. 0.99

01:13:26.000 I'm like, goddamn, they put so much effort into this. 0.99

01:13:28.000 If they just put together a fucking stacked Muay Thai card, just a stacked one, and just let people know, and put it on primetime TV, just like they do with Fox, with the UFC, I feel like you can't miss. 0.99

01:13:42.000 I really do. 0.97

01:13:43.000 I feel like it's one of those things where the product is there, the talent is there, the fighters are established.

01:13:49.000 There's so much high-level talent.

01:13:51.000 I mean, when anybody watches Muay Thai, even on TV, live especially, they're like, they just fall in love with it.

01:13:58.000 It's like, oh my god, like, where has...

01:14:00.000 Where's this been?

01:14:02.000 Yeah.

01:14:02.000 Where's this been?

01:14:03.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:14:03.000 If you're a fan of exciting shit, you should be a fan of Muay Thai. 0.99

01:14:07.000 Definitely. 0.99

01:14:07.000 Yeah, it's... 0.99

01:14:09.000 As we said earlier, there's so many variables that go into it, and it's just a matter of all those right pieces coming together at the right time.

01:14:17.000 Just like when the UFC really started blowing up with the Stephen Bonner and Forrest Griffin fight, how long it had been around, how many amazing fights had been going on, and it was just that, the right time, the right people, the right thing.

01:14:31.000 Blew it up.

01:14:32.000 Yeah, it was 12 years old.

01:14:33.000 A lot of people forget.

01:14:34.000 The UFC was 12 years old when that happened.

01:14:36.000 How long did they struggle?

01:14:37.000 How much money did they lose?

01:14:38.000 How many promotions came and went?

01:14:41.000 It's the same thing with Muay Thai.

01:14:42.000 It's just you don't know what the right combination and the right time is in Hopefully one day all those pieces will come together.

01:14:50.000 If not, we're just doing the best we can with what we have.

01:14:54.000 Now you as a fighter and you're 34 now?

01:14:57.000 36. 36. This is, you know, when you're an athlete, this is the, you know, there's a window.

01:15:04.000 I think Sanchai's 36 too.

01:15:06.000 Yeah, where's the same age?

01:15:06.000 Where there's a window.

01:15:07.000 There's like where your body is going to function at the level that it's at right now for a certain amount of time and not much more.

01:15:14.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:15:14.000 Does that fuck with you? 0.99

01:15:18.000 Sometimes. 1.00

01:15:21.000 After I had two really bad losses, I lost my world title by stoppage, and then I got knocked out the next fight.

01:15:30.000 I was really struggling mentally with a lot of things.

01:15:33.000 Like, I don't know, can I still do this?

01:15:35.000 I'm too old to do this.

01:15:37.000 And I had all these questions in my head.

01:15:39.000 And what I realized, what Kiryan helped me realize right before I won that WMC title in Peru, was I've had all these questions from day one.

01:15:47.000 I'm too old to do this.

01:15:49.000 I don't know if I'm good enough, you know.

01:15:50.000 But my answer has always been the same.

01:15:52.000 Do I love to do this?

01:15:53.000 Yes.

01:15:54.000 Can I physically still do this?

01:15:55.000 Yes.

01:15:56.000 Well, then I'm going to do the best that I can and give this everything that I have.

01:15:59.000 And that's not going to change.

01:15:59.000 I don't know if that's going to be over today, tomorrow, 10 years from now.

01:16:03.000 You know what I mean?

01:16:04.000 So as long as I'm physically able to do this, and as long as I still have a love and a passion for this, I'm going to keep doing it.

01:16:11.000 People have been asking me how long I'm going to keep doing this for over 10 years.

01:16:15.000 There's an old expression that a fighter lives and dies in their own mind.

01:16:18.000 And when you're at your best, like you were telling me, when you were 16, you felt invincible.

01:16:23.000 When you're confident, you can pull the trigger faster, you have more belief in yourself.

01:16:31.000 When you're saying, I'm just going to do my best.

01:16:34.000 Is there a thing in your head that says, man, I wish I was in that state where I felt invincible?

01:16:40.000 Or does that not matter?

01:16:44.000 Yes and no.

01:16:45.000 It definitely does.

01:16:47.000 There's a point where thinking you're invincible can backfire.

01:16:51.000 Sure.

01:16:51.000 Like you think about Tyson.

01:16:53.000 Of course.

01:16:53.000 He was invincible.

01:16:54.000 But as soon as he lost that...

01:16:57.000 He couldn't overcome it.

01:16:59.000 Have you ever heard Tyson talk about what was going through his mind when he was walking to the ring?

01:17:04.000 Yeah.

01:17:04.000 Have you ever heard him do that thing?

01:17:05.000 Have you heard him do that?

01:17:06.000 Yeah. 0.98

01:17:06.000 I fucking love that recording. 0.98

01:17:09.000 I've played that like 30 or... 0.99

01:17:11.000 You got it? 1.00

01:17:12.000 Cue that shit up. 1.00

01:17:14.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:17:14.000 Because there's something about that where it's so raw and it's honest. 1.00

01:17:18.000 It's after he had been retired and he just was kind of reflecting about all the nerves that would go through his mind and all the...

01:17:27.000 Here goes.

01:17:29.000 Most guys were pretty much intimidated.

01:17:32.000 They lost the fight before they even got hit.

01:17:34.000 Most guys.

01:17:35.000 I knew the artist of Dougury.

01:17:37.000 I knew how to beat these guys psychologically before I even got in the ring with them.

01:17:43.000 As soon as I come into the ring, as soon as I come into the ring, I'm globed.

01:17:46.000 No, stop it.

01:17:47.000 That's not true.

01:17:49.000 While I'm in the dressing room, five minutes before I come out, my gloves are laced up.

01:17:54.000 I'm breaking my gloves down.

01:17:55.000 I'm pushing the lever on the back of my gloves.

01:17:57.000 I'm breaking the middle of the gloves for my knuckle.

01:17:59.000 I could pierce through the leg.

01:18:00.000 I feel my knuckle piercing against the tight leather gloves on the Everlast boxing gloves.

01:18:05.000 When I come out, I have supreme confidence.

01:18:07.000 I'm scared to death.

01:18:08.000 I'm totally afraid.

01:18:09.000 I'm afraid of everything.

01:18:11.000 I'm afraid of losing.

01:18:12.000 I'm afraid of being humiliated.

01:18:13.000 But I'm totally confident.

01:18:14.000 The closer I get to the ring, the more confidence I get.

01:18:17.000 The closer, the more confidence I get.

01:18:19.000 The closer, the more confidence I get.

01:18:21.000 All during my training, I've been afraid of this man.

01:18:23.000 I thought this man might be capable of beating me.

01:18:25.000 I've dreamed of him beating me.

01:18:27.000 But I always stayed afraid of him.

01:18:30.000 But the closer I get to the ring, I'm more confident.

01:18:32.000 Once I'm in the ring, I'm a god.

01:18:34.000 No one can beat me.

01:18:38.000 Gives me chills, man. 1.00

01:18:39.000 If that shit doesn't give you goosebumps, when I came that ring, I'm a god. 1.00

01:18:43.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:18:43.000 Oh my god. 1.00

01:18:45.000 I fucking love that. 0.99

01:18:46.000 I love that. 0.99

01:18:48.000 Because that...

01:18:49.000 What you were saying about... 0.99

01:18:51.000 All that work for that one moment, there's so much mind-fucking going on. 0.98

01:18:57.000 And so mental, you know? 0.91

01:18:58.000 And that's the thing, like, people don't understand how mental fighting is, and they can't really appreciate it.

01:19:03.000 And the hardest part is after you have been broken, to still get that back.

01:19:09.000 And that's a very tough thing to do.

01:19:10.000 So if you've gone undefeated for so long, you finally lose, not a lot of people come back from that.

01:19:15.000 Or not a lot of people get back to the level they were.

01:19:17.000 Like, I was very fortunate.

01:19:18.000 I got crushed my first fight.

01:19:20.000 And I was able to overcome that and to build myself up and help it motivate me.

01:19:25.000 And then I went on to win like 18 fights in a row after that.

01:19:28.000 But I saw a lot of people go undefeated for 10, 15 fights and they just had this amazing confidence.

01:19:35.000 They were just crushing everybody.

01:19:35.000 But they were also not learning a lot of very important lessons that they needed to learn.

01:19:40.000 And so once they finally lost, it almost destroyed them.

01:19:43.000 And it's very tough to get so far in a game and miss all these lessons you need to learn.

01:19:49.000 Until you're forced to learn them, you know what I mean?

01:19:52.000 So if you can find a way to learn them as well, but nothing teaches as good as losing.

01:19:58.000 There's also losing, I mean, you see it in MMA, like fighters from different disciplines, maybe grapplers or something like that, that lose by KO for the first time.

01:20:06.000 It's a completely different animal.

01:20:08.000 Yeah, and that's what happened with me when I was saying my two losses.

01:20:11.000 Like, I'd never been...

01:20:13.000 I've never been stopped.

01:20:15.000 Well, I've been stopped, but not really hurt or really knocked out before.

01:20:19.000 And that happened twice in a row.

01:20:20.000 And it was really devastating for me mentally to have that happen and to try to get back to where I was prior to that.

01:20:28.000 And not just skill, like skill, skill, skill.

01:20:30.000 But there's so many other factors that go into this.

01:20:33.000 The way that you think about things, it's like being confident, but not overconfident.

01:20:38.000 Being confident, but...

01:20:40.000 Understanding the danger and the things that'll keep you sharp without affecting you.

01:20:44.000 It's like finding that balance between being too nervous and too calm.

01:20:49.000 I've always been way, way too calm for my own good.

01:20:52.000 You're kind of a calm dude most of the time.

01:20:55.000 You're very mellow.

01:20:56.000 In the beginning, I thought everybody was like that.

01:20:58.000 Then I would see people getting ready for fights and they're freaking out.

01:21:01.000 They can't walk and they're like, I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't do this.

01:21:04.000 These high-level people who I've been watching, I'm like, jeez, man, what's wrong with you?

01:21:08.000 I don't understand.

01:21:08.000 What are you so nervous about?

01:21:09.000 You're amazing.

01:21:10.000 You know what I mean?

01:21:11.000 But one day I realized being too calm isn't so great either because I went into a fight once and I had no adrenaline going.

01:21:18.000 I'm like half asleep.

01:21:19.000 I'm like, alright man, you're about to fight and this guy's coming across the ring from me. 0.99

01:21:23.000 I'm like, alright, this guy's going to try to kill you. 0.97

01:21:26.000 You better get going. 0.83

01:21:27.000 It took me a whole round to get back into that mental zone.

01:21:31.000 You ever seen that Cowboy Cerrone video of his breakdown walking to the cage?

01:21:37.000 No, Cowboy has a breakdown?

01:21:38.000 It's just like that, where he's talking about his mental process and everything.

01:21:44.000 It's really good.

01:21:45.000 He's changed a lot of stuff in his game, and he's a guy that has survived some pretty devastating losses and come back even better.

01:21:53.000 Yeah, and that is really the key, because eventually, if you do this long enough, those things are going to happen.

01:21:59.000 And how you overcome them is really what shows you what a great fighter is.

01:22:05.000 Because anybody that goes around winning and just crushing people is, yeah, that's great and all, but if you have never come back from total destruction, you're not a complete fighter, I don't feel.

01:22:15.000 Yeah, Cowboy, since the Dos Anjos fight, is the best version of Cowboy ever.

01:22:20.000 And before that, it was the Pettis fight.

01:22:22.000 The Pettis fight, he got stopped in the Pettis fight, came back better than that.

01:22:25.000 He's a guy that is like, the adversity builds him.

01:22:28.000 It makes him stronger.

01:22:30.000 Have you ever worked with a psychological coach?

01:22:33.000 Yeah, a little bit.

01:22:34.000 Back when I was in Vegas, I originally started doing it because I broke my hand three times in a year, and I was always so hesitant to throw it.

01:22:44.000 It's always painful and stuff, and I just mentally couldn't get over it.

01:22:51.000 That was how I originally started working with a mental coach with...

01:22:55.000 Sort of hypnosis, but more just getting to that right mind frame, like going into the ring.

01:23:00.000 And then I started going from there as very specific things I wanted to work on.

01:23:06.000 Because it's all about having that right mentality when you get in there or when you're getting into training, as opposed to just going through the motions.

01:23:14.000 And you can get very, especially when you've been doing this for so long, you can get very comfortable and too comfortable.

01:23:19.000 And that's one of the problems I've had, especially being so calm as I am.

01:23:23.000 It's very easy for me to just be like, ah, this is whatever.

01:23:26.000 We're just hanging out.

01:23:28.000 I'm sorry, I'll get to you.

01:23:29.000 No, it's okay.

01:23:29.000 So your mental coach would help you with your mindset for training, to prepare?

01:23:34.000 Training as well as fighting.

01:23:36.000 What kind of stuff did you work on?

01:23:38.000 For training?

01:23:40.000 Just having that...

01:23:43.000 I'm here for a purpose.

01:23:45.000 I'm here to very specifically build myself up, get ready for this fight.

01:23:49.000 I'm not just here to work out.

01:23:51.000 It's the difference between working out and training.

01:23:55.000 You're very focused on the task at hand.

01:23:59.000 Why are you doing this?

01:24:00.000 You're doing this to be the best.

01:24:03.000 Like, you're getting ready for this date, you need to give it all you have at this very specific moment, instead of just casually getting through the training.

01:24:10.000 You know, you're doing everything you're supposed to do, but if you're not mentally doing that as well, when you get into the ring, you're gonna fight in that kind of laid-back, casual way, as opposed to this being this very, you know, dangerous thing you're doing.

01:24:23.000 So you're training, you're specifically gearing up to an event.

01:24:27.000 Yeah, like just dialing everything in, you know what I mean?

01:24:32.000 Some people have more of that automatic thing.

01:24:35.000 They're like, when I'm in the gym, I'm very focused, very determined.

01:24:37.000 I'm doing this for this specific goal.

01:24:41.000 But after you've been doing this for so long, it just becomes like, I'll just get through it and do it.

01:24:47.000 You kind of almost get lazy mentally.

01:24:49.000 I've never been lazy physically.

01:24:52.000 You know, I've always pushed myself almost too much, but mentally there's been times when I've had those bad fights is when I've allowed myself to slip.

01:25:01.000 Whether that's because, you know, the person I was fighting didn't give me enough threat in my mind or there was things going on outside the gym with family and pets dying and things like that that kind of broke certain things to me down where I was still doing the work,

01:25:18.000 but mentally I was just broken.

01:25:19.000 Yeah.

01:25:20.000 Relationships are a big one with fighters, right?

01:25:22.000 Yeah.

01:25:23.000 You know, when you see fighters, they get in a broken up relationship or they have a crazy girlfriend or something.

01:25:28.000 Yeah.

01:25:28.000 Like, there's a lot of fighters.

01:25:29.000 Like, there's a buddy of mine who used to work with fighters and it would seem like every time his fighter was getting to get ready to compete, his girlfriend would have some fucking major drama and she'd be waking him up in the middle of the night and screaming at him and she just wanted to fight, like, as he was gearing up to a fight because he was pulling away from her and We're good to

01:26:00.000 go.

01:26:07.000 You have to be so focused on this one thing.

01:26:10.000 I mean, your life is on the line.

01:26:12.000 Even just in the gym, your life is on the line.

01:26:14.000 We don't really think about it or put that much emphasis on it.

01:26:18.000 But every day we get in there, we risk injury and death, which is obviously a severe case, but it happens definitely.

01:26:26.000 And if you're not taking the necessary precautions and going into it with that right mentality, then you can get hurt really bad.

01:26:34.000 What were you going to say?

01:26:35.000 I've been really lucky.

01:26:37.000 I've been with Karen since I was 16, so he's not only been my coach, but he's also been my mind coach.

01:26:42.000 He knows me so well.

01:26:44.000 As soon as we're going to hit pads, if something's going on or I'm in my head or anything, he knows.

01:26:49.000 Just my body movement, he's like, hey, what's up?

01:26:53.000 What's going on?

01:26:54.000 Let's get out of your head.

01:26:55.000 Come on.

01:26:56.000 Are we going to work?

01:26:57.000 What's the deal?

01:26:58.000 He knows me so well that he knows...

01:27:02.000 He can see it a mile away.

01:27:04.000 Even just by my texting or whatever.

01:27:07.000 I'm really lucky.

01:27:08.000 And that's why it's important to have...

01:27:10.000 It's like not just...

01:27:12.000 A great coach or a great team.

01:27:13.000 It's having people around you who know you.

01:27:15.000 And they can see these elements that maybe someone who you haven't been around long enough wouldn't see before.

01:27:21.000 They might not pick up on just that very subtle vibe you have.

01:27:24.000 I'm like, dude, what the hell is going on with you?

01:27:26.000 Even though you're doing everything correctly, you're training really hard, but you can see that thing that's off in their head.

01:27:32.000 And that's what's great to have people who you're friends with and have been around for a long time.

01:27:37.000 I can see that in him.

01:27:38.000 He can see that in me.

01:27:39.000 And be like, dude, like, we need to talk about something?

01:27:42.000 Like, what's going on with you?

01:27:43.000 Like, maybe you need to just ease back a little bit and you need to, like, fix that thing, whatever.

01:27:47.000 And there's so many things that could be, you know what I mean?

01:27:49.000 Whether it's you overthinking the fight or whether there's something going on with someone outside the gym or you just got a bad vibe or...

01:27:56.000 And it's knowing when sometimes you've got to take a little step back and maybe not push yourself so hard.

01:28:00.000 Be like, hey man, just ease back a little bit.

01:28:02.000 It's all about finding that winning combination.

01:28:07.000 And obviously your mindset, what you need to think about, is probably going to be different than Gaston's mindset.

01:28:12.000 Completely different.

01:28:12.000 And probably going to be different than, fill in the blank, Joe Schilling's mindset.

01:28:16.000 Everybody's got their own little weird... 0.99

01:28:20.000 Tweaky shit. 1.00

01:28:21.000 That's why I can't just tell him, oh, just do this. 1.00

01:28:23.000 I'm like, I don't know, dude.

01:28:25.000 So people ask me, well, what should I do mentally to prepare myself?

01:28:29.000 I'm like, I have no idea.

01:28:30.000 I don't even know for myself what that is because it's a constant learning and adjusting thing.

01:28:35.000 It can change every camp, you know?

01:28:37.000 People don't like that.

01:28:38.000 People like to be able to show up at work at 9 o'clock.

01:28:39.000 There's a coffee break at 10.30.

01:28:41.000 At noon, they go to lunch.

01:28:43.000 At 5 p.m., they go home.

01:28:44.000 I wish it was that easy.

01:28:46.000 But you don't.

01:28:47.000 You don't.

01:28:47.000 You'd hate it.

01:28:49.000 You'd hate it.

01:28:49.000 I would hate it.

01:28:50.000 I'm like, why? 1.00

01:28:51.000 This is stupid. 1.00

01:28:51.000 Everybody can do this. 1.00

01:28:52.000 Well, when you've experienced life at 10, like you guys are living, you know, you're living this extremely dangerous, difficult, incredibly complex life.

01:29:03.000 I mean, the task of being a professional combat sports athlete...

01:29:07.000 Is one of the most difficult jobs that is available to a person.

01:29:11.000 It really is.

01:29:12.000 It's incredibly difficult.

01:29:13.000 And it's incredibly difficult psychologically.

01:29:15.000 It's not just difficult.

01:29:16.000 It's difficult across the board. 0.98

01:29:18.000 There's not a single fucking thing that's easy about it. 0.94

01:29:20.000 And to find the right formula to make that thing work for you... 0.99

01:29:26.000 It's so...

01:29:28.000 There's so much involved.

01:29:30.000 Yeah.

01:29:30.000 And you really have to pay attention to it because the longer you let things slide and don't realize, like, hey, you're letting this slip over here, the harder it is to make those adjustments.

01:29:42.000 That's what I was saying.

01:29:43.000 Like, every day, you're on both sides of too much or too little of one thing or another, whether it's training, whether it's your mental approach, whether it's your diet, whether it's how much or how little you're running.

01:29:56.000 What about strength and conditioning?

01:29:58.000 Do you guys follow a strength and conditioning routine?

01:30:00.000 Tons, tons.

01:30:01.000 What kind of stuff do you do?

01:30:03.000 I can't even begin to describe it.

01:30:06.000 We do some Tabata stuff, you know, a lot of sprints.

01:30:09.000 It just really depends.

01:30:10.000 It switches.

01:30:12.000 And again, it's that thing where you have to find what works best for you on that day, in that moment, in that certain fight.

01:30:21.000 It's like, how much is too much?

01:30:24.000 How little is too little?

01:30:25.000 And you're dialing that in constantly.

01:30:28.000 Because sometimes you go to bed like, okay, this is what I'm going to do tomorrow.

01:30:30.000 But then you wake up and you're like, this is not going to work for me today, man.

01:30:33.000 Right.

01:30:34.000 You're sore.

01:30:35.000 And so sometimes just doing it for the sake of, yeah, I'm going to do it because I don't feel like I'm doing it.

01:30:40.000 I need to push myself.

01:30:41.000 Sometimes that's not the wisest thing.

01:30:43.000 Just pushing yourself for the sake of pushing yourself isn't always the right answer.

01:30:47.000 You know what I mean?

01:30:48.000 And trying to find that is very difficult.

01:30:51.000 It's like I was saying before about how...

01:30:53.000 What injury is too bad to where you should take this fight off?

01:30:56.000 And what's an owie?

01:30:57.000 I don't know, dude.

01:30:58.000 What's that?

01:30:58.000 What's an owie?

01:30:59.000 What's an owie and what's an injury?

01:31:01.000 I stubbed my toe.

01:31:02.000 Going into my world title fight, I busted my rib nine days prior to.

01:31:08.000 I couldn't even breathe.

01:31:08.000 I couldn't even move for two days.

01:31:10.000 I'm like, hey, maybe you should not fight.

01:31:12.000 And yeah, that went through my head, of course.

01:31:14.000 Because I couldn't do anything.

01:31:16.000 I couldn't even touch it.

01:31:17.000 But I'm always somebody, like I said, I'm going to do it no matter what.

01:31:22.000 How bad was it broken?

01:31:24.000 What was it?

01:31:25.000 Intercostal tear?

01:31:26.000 Oh, okay.

01:31:27.000 So it's the tear of the tissue in between the ribs?

01:31:29.000 Yeah.

01:31:29.000 Yeah, that's very painful.

01:31:30.000 So when it happened, my rib was sticking out like that.

01:31:33.000 I'd pop it back into place and like duct tape it down.

01:31:36.000 And I literally couldn't take a breath.

01:31:38.000 And I was like...

01:31:40.000 How am I going to fight?

01:31:41.000 I can't even train.

01:31:42.000 I still got like over a week to go.

01:31:44.000 You know, I got to make weight.

01:31:46.000 I got to do all these things.

01:31:47.000 And so I'm laying in bed for two days just taking these short breaths.

01:31:50.000 I couldn't lay down.

01:31:51.000 I couldn't sit up.

01:31:52.000 And I'm just like, I've been working so long to get to this point.

01:31:56.000 And this happens to me right before.

01:31:59.000 It's like, it was brutal.

01:32:00.000 So what'd you end up doing?

01:32:01.000 I fought and crushed him.

01:32:05.000 Did you get a cortisone shot or anything in it?

01:32:09.000 No, no.

01:32:10.000 I got a lot of body work done.

01:32:14.000 I worked with my mind coach a lot.

01:32:17.000 Because I was just like, literally, if somebody touches me there, I'm done.

01:32:22.000 My body's going to fall, even if I'm mentally strong.

01:32:25.000 That's what I was so worried about.

01:32:27.000 I was like, I'm going to go out there and this guy's going to touch me and I'm going to fall.

01:32:29.000 I'm like, oh, he knocked me out.

01:32:31.000 I was really worried about that, but I was like, well, you know what?

01:32:35.000 He still has to do it.

01:32:37.000 He might go the whole fight and not even touch me.

01:32:39.000 I can't be so concerned about this one thing that I'm not going to allow this to break me.

01:32:46.000 At what point do you allow things to break you?

01:32:50.000 And I'm like, there's nothing that's going to break me.

01:32:51.000 There's nothing that's going to stop me.

01:32:52.000 If I can physically get in there, I'm going to do it.

01:32:55.000 There's a fine line that people make when they're training and they're putting together a schedule.

01:33:03.000 There's a big debate, especially in MMA, over how much strength and conditioning you should do versus how much fight-specific skill training you should do.

01:33:12.000 Where do you guys fit in on that and how do you make the distinction?

01:33:16.000 I feel like there should be a balance between both.

01:33:19.000 You gotta know what you're...

01:33:21.000 So you think you have to do strength and conditioning?

01:33:23.000 Definitely.

01:33:24.000 Absolutely.

01:33:25.000 And then you should run.

01:33:25.000 There's a lot of MMA fighters that don't run at all.

01:33:29.000 Running, sprinting, strength and conditioning.

01:33:31.000 But again, it's different for every person.

01:33:33.000 Now when you say running, do you run distances?

01:33:35.000 Do you run hills?

01:33:36.000 I run miles at a time.

01:33:38.000 We do a lot.

01:33:39.000 The shortest run that I do is four miles, and most of the times I do that twice a day.

01:33:44.000 So you run eight miles in a day?

01:33:46.000 I mean, it just really depends, you know, how I'm feeling that day.

01:33:48.000 So I go either four or, you know, whatever.

01:33:51.000 But every day I have to get my run, otherwise I feel like I'm not training.

01:33:55.000 Really?

01:33:55.000 Yeah.

01:33:56.000 So you do the run in the morning and then you train at night?

01:33:58.000 Is that how you were doing it?

01:33:59.000 So I run.

01:34:01.000 Monday is not as long of a day for me.

01:34:06.000 I have a long training session in the afternoon, but then Tuesday I run, then we do strength and conditioning, then I come back in the afternoon, I hit pads, then we all spar together.

01:34:15.000 So that's kind of like a longer day for me.

01:34:18.000 So you have a couple days where it's just a big, brutal, crazy day.

01:34:22.000 So that's like four workouts you're doing.

01:34:24.000 You know, I mean, you're running.

01:34:26.000 Running, conditioning, running again, pat work.

01:34:30.000 Sparring.

01:34:30.000 Sparring, you know, then pull-ups, neck exercises, you know, crossfit in there.

01:34:35.000 I really try to put everything that I can into my training.

01:34:40.000 So fight day comes.

01:34:42.000 I'm like, there's nothing else I could have done.

01:34:45.000 This is it.

01:34:46.000 But you also have to find that balance between those things, too.

01:34:51.000 So it's not like I can't 100% crush every single thing I'm doing.

01:34:55.000 I can't sprint for six miles, crush the pads as hard as I can, spar as hard as I can, kill the bag as hard as I can.

01:35:02.000 You know what I mean?

01:35:03.000 Right.

01:35:03.000 What is it that you're working on in that moment?

01:35:06.000 Am I just working on my technique and my things and my footwork and my movement as well as that?

01:35:12.000 So it's not like every time we do strength and conditioning, it's this full-on kill-yourself sprint.

01:35:18.000 Or it might be.

01:35:19.000 But later on, maybe we're doing a little more technical stuff.

01:35:22.000 So we definitely switch it up at the gym.

01:35:26.000 And how do you man I mean that that balance which is it what's interesting about it is like how do you know?

01:35:32.000 The right way to go about it like don't fade or towards the end of his career I mean he's obviously back now, but towards the end of his MMA career.

01:35:38.000 He abandoned all strength conditioning and he's just doing fight training It's what works for the individual.

01:35:44.000 You know what I mean?

01:35:46.000 Like like what would I do?

01:35:48.000 It's not gonna tell everyone you need to do this because then you're gonna be like me we don't have a The same schedules.

01:35:54.000 Yeah, we're very different.

01:35:55.000 We do a lot of stuff together, but there's a lot of stuff we don't do the same at all.

01:35:59.000 What's the differences between you two in terms of training?

01:36:02.000 I probably don't run as much as he does anymore.

01:36:04.000 I used to, yeah, but the older I get, the less I'm running.

01:36:09.000 I hate it, man.

01:36:10.000 I hate it.

01:36:11.000 I'm like, I've done the running.

01:36:12.000 But is there benefit to you doing it?

01:36:14.000 I mean, is there anything wrong with you not doing it?

01:36:32.000 I don't feel so.

01:36:32.000 There's not just one thing.

01:36:35.000 You have to do this this many rounds, this many miles.

01:36:38.000 You have to eat exactly like this.

01:36:40.000 You have to do it exactly like this.

01:36:42.000 It changes.

01:36:43.000 And it changes for me daily, weekly.

01:36:46.000 Every fight's different.

01:36:47.000 I might do more, do less.

01:36:49.000 I've had fights where I couldn't run because I snapped all the tendons in my ankle and I had to swim instead.

01:36:54.000 You know, and I still felt great in that fight.

01:36:57.000 I felt like I had just as much cardio.

01:36:59.000 But I had to make up for it somehow in other aspects of what I was doing.

01:37:03.000 And you're making up for this.

01:37:04.000 You're the one who's got this schedule in your head. 0.59

01:37:08.000 So there's that mindfuck of, am I slacking off?

01:37:10.000 Am I pushing myself hard enough? 0.91

01:37:12.000 And how do you know?

01:37:13.000 That kind of comes from the way I came up.

01:37:16.000 You know, I came up with Thai trainers who didn't speak English.

01:37:20.000 You know, I had to learn everything.

01:37:22.000 Very much so by doing it myself and figuring it out myself.

01:37:26.000 I never had people telling me what to do or what I should eat, what I shouldn't eat.

01:37:31.000 Everything I've done and learned, most of what I've done and learned has been by application.

01:37:35.000 I find it's hilarious and fun to watch when you see Thai guys training with American people and the American people don't speak Thai and the Thai guy doesn't speak English and they're trying to teach him a technique and they're just kind of like...

01:37:51.000 It's this weird thing where you're looking at each other and they're trying to figure out what the other guy's saying.

01:37:56.000 Well, it's interesting because I didn't really start thinking of how complex what I was doing was until I started teaching people.

01:38:03.000 Because I'd been doing this for almost 10 years before I actually started trying to train people.

01:38:08.000 And I remember the first time I taught somebody or maybe it was a seminar or something, I'm like, whoa, just kick.

01:38:13.000 You know, just do it.

01:38:14.000 Do it.

01:38:15.000 And then I'm like, oh, well, you got to do this.

01:38:16.000 You got to do this.

01:38:17.000 I'm like, geez, there's like 15 steps involved in just the kick.

01:38:20.000 Well, that's funny you said that because we worked out today and you're very complex.

01:38:25.000 I mean, we were talking just about the switch kick and I think you went on this 10 minute rant of just all the different variables that are involved in it.

01:38:33.000 It was very illuminating.

01:38:35.000 It was awesome.

01:38:38.000 Again, I learned it by doing it, but it wasn't until teaching it that I had to figure out what all those steps were, which has helped me in what I do and helped me improve a lot of the techniques I have, is realizing all the complexity of every technique,

01:38:55.000 of every movement.

01:38:56.000 When I explain it to people and I train people, a lot of it is just me telling them how you do it.

01:39:03.000 How I learned was just do it.

01:39:06.000 Go run. 0.96

01:39:07.000 Go kick the bag. 1.00

01:39:08.000 You've got to fix this. 0.97

01:39:09.000 By watching and studying, that's really how I learned.

01:39:14.000 Well, what's interesting and maybe unfortunate is that you could train with a lot of people and they would never point out some of the stuff that you guys pointed out today.

01:39:22.000 It's finding someone who's technically proficient and understands how to relay that information.

01:39:29.000 It's one of the harder parts of being a martial artist, unless you're a self-starter and you just do a lot of...

01:39:35.000 Well, now today, obviously, when you were there, you couldn't do YouTube, but now...

01:39:38.000 You could just get online.

01:39:39.000 You could watch a million.

01:39:40.000 Yeah. 0.97

01:39:41.000 But you might find some shitty ones, too. 0.95

01:39:42.000 I've found some shitty ones on all sorts of things where they don't know what the fuck they're talking about on all sorts of different martial arts techniques. 0.96

01:39:49.000 Yeah. 0.93

01:39:49.000 Well, it's a thing that kind of... 0.93

01:39:50.000 It's like the unfortunate part of...

01:39:52.000 A lot of times, high-level people...

01:39:55.000 Didn't really have to learn things because it came so naturally.

01:39:57.000 Right.

01:39:58.000 They didn't have to learn all the fundamental aspects that go into this technique.

01:40:02.000 Whereas somebody that might not be as good, they've studied it a lot more.

01:40:06.000 And that's why a lot of times you'll see not the highest level fighters be the better coaches.

01:40:12.000 Yeah.

01:40:21.000 Do it so naturally.

01:40:23.000 Like Freddie Roach.

01:40:24.000 Yeah, without a doubt.

01:40:25.000 I mean, he was an amazing fighter.

01:40:26.000 He was a good fighter.

01:40:27.000 Really good fighter.

01:40:28.000 Really good fighter.

01:40:28.000 But, you know, he wasn't Mayweather.

01:40:31.000 Right.

01:40:31.000 You know what I mean?

01:40:32.000 Right.

01:40:32.000 Where, you know, Mayweather's probably not the best coach in the world.

01:40:35.000 I don't know.

01:40:36.000 But a guy like Freddie Roach has really had to develop that and figure those things out.

01:40:41.000 And he can tell somebody else, how do you do that?

01:40:44.000 This is how you do it, because I've had to figure it out.

01:40:45.000 Mm-hmm.

01:40:45.000 You know what I mean?

01:40:46.000 And that's something I've gone out of my way to do.

01:40:50.000 It was much more natural for me to do, but throughout the years, I've realized that.

01:40:56.000 And how do I tell someone how to do this?

01:40:58.000 I've had to figure out what those things are, and how do I tell someone how to do this?

01:41:02.000 Because I can just do it just by doing it.

01:41:04.000 I can watch somebody do something, and I'm like, I want to do it.

01:41:07.000 But how do I explain this to somebody?

01:41:08.000 And I've had to dissect my own self and realize all these things and all these aspects of the technique and it allows me to translate that to somebody else as well as fine-tune it in myself.

01:41:21.000 Now when you guys watch MMA and you see someone like Stephen Thompson that has a few elements of Muay Thai he uses, but he uses a lot of sport karate.

01:41:33.000 Yeah.

01:41:33.000 Which is, you know, a completely different stance, a completely different style.

01:41:38.000 What's your take on that when you watch that?

01:41:41.000 What, his style?

01:41:42.000 Or when they say that it's Muay Thai?

01:41:44.000 Well, they definitely don't really.

01:41:45.000 I mean, he uses some leg kicks and some techniques, but essentially he's doing a sport karate style.

01:41:52.000 Right.

01:41:52.000 Well, it was kind of the same thing with Anderson Silva.

01:41:54.000 It's like, just because someone's throwing an elbow, just because somebody has a clinch, doesn't necessarily make it Muay Thai.

01:41:59.000 There's a lot of arts that have those things, you know what I mean?

01:42:03.000 I'm not gonna view him as a Muay Thai fighter.

01:42:05.000 You didn't think of Anderson as a Muay Thai fighter?

01:42:06.000 Not at all.

01:42:07.000 He thought of himself as a Muay Thai fighter.

01:42:09.000 Well, that's okay.

01:42:10.000 But I wouldn't view him as a Muay Thai fighter at all.

01:42:14.000 View him as an MMA fighter.

01:42:14.000 I don't think anything he did was very Muay Thai.

01:42:17.000 Even his clinch was...

01:42:18.000 I mean, that's such a fundamental basic clinch.

01:42:21.000 You know what I mean?

01:42:21.000 That's just because everyone else was so terrible at it.

01:42:23.000 Right.

01:42:24.000 It's like, grab the neck.

01:42:24.000 Like, you don't see that in high-level Muay Thai.

01:42:27.000 Guys going up and grabbing each other by the neck.

01:42:29.000 It's in transition when they hurt people, when they get tired.

01:42:32.000 It's very much us struggling for dominance, over, under, those kind of things. 0.88

01:42:37.000 So it's like a big, sloppy, ridiculous arm bar? 0.84

01:42:40.000 Yeah, dude. 0.87

01:42:42.000 That's like day one Muay Thai. 0.99

01:42:44.000 So when you saw the Rich Franklin fight, were you going, what in the fuck? 0.99

01:42:49.000 How did he not learn this his first day in training? 0.95

01:42:51.000 And what was even worse was I had a friend that I trained with that went out to help him for the second one.

01:42:58.000 And he just didn't want to hear it.

01:42:59.000 Like, they did not want to hear that, like, dude, you don't know what you're doing at all.

01:43:03.000 Because as of what we talked about earlier, these guys get to a high level and think that their maybe Muay Thai technique is good.

01:43:11.000 And I'm like, dude, you are like a kindergartner.

01:43:12.000 Like, you don't know what you're doing at all.

01:43:14.000 So he didn't want to listen?

01:43:16.000 No.

01:43:17.000 Wow, that's crazy.

01:43:19.000 All right, good luck.

01:43:21.000 So who was it that went out with him?

01:43:23.000 Anthony Brown, the training partner of mine.

01:43:26.000 And he was specifically brought there because of his Muay Thai.

01:43:30.000 Yeah, without a doubt.

01:43:31.000 Why would you bring me in if you're not going to use me?

01:43:34.000 I've been brought in for people too.

01:43:37.000 Why wouldn't you use what you've brought me in here to do?

01:43:40.000 You know what I mean?

01:43:41.000 You brought me in for my Muay Thai, for my knowledge in this thing, and you just want to keep doing what you're good at.

01:43:46.000 Why am I here? 1.00

01:43:46.000 This is stupid. 1.00

01:43:48.000 That's unfortunate. 1.00

01:43:49.000 He's such a nice guy and such a smart guy, too.

01:43:51.000 He was a math teacher.

01:43:52.000 Without doubt.

01:43:53.000 How did he not see the math of that?

01:43:55.000 It's when people have a false sense of where they're at in the sport and what they can do.

01:44:02.000 You literally know nothing, but you have this mentality that you're decent at stand-up, you're decent at Muay Thai, and you're terrible, compared to someone that really does know what they're doing.

01:44:13.000 You know what I mean?

01:44:14.000 Most people's understanding is very elementary, if that.

01:44:19.000 You know, you take another person and I could beat you without even, like, touching you.

01:44:25.000 You know what I mean?

01:44:25.000 And just let you mess yourself up because you don't really know what you're doing.

01:44:30.000 It's crazy to think that someone could reach a world championship level in something that involves Muay Thai.

01:44:36.000 But there's so many variables that go into it.

01:44:38.000 There's wrestling, there's jiu-jitsu, there's all these things.

01:44:40.000 You can get away with a lot more, like the striking in MMA, you can get away with because of those variables, because of the smaller gloves, because of the takedowns.

01:44:49.000 You put that person in the ring with even a moderately good Muay Thai person, a moderately good boxer, they're going to get murdered.

01:44:58.000 You know what I mean?

01:44:59.000 Right, right.

01:44:59.000 Just like you can bring a really good Muay Thai fighter in, but they don't have any wrestling defense or no jiu-jitsu.

01:45:05.000 They're not going to be able to do anything. 1.00

01:45:06.000 They're going to look like an idiot. 1.00

01:45:08.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:45:09.000 Well, that's one of the appeals of MMA, is that the guy who wins is most likely the best fighter.

01:45:16.000 Because if it was just Muay Thai, or if it was just wrestling, or if it was just jiu-jitsu, you would see someone who's the best at that.

01:45:23.000 But when you throw everything in, like, it's the kitchen sink, get in there, and...

01:45:28.000 That's when, you know, you get to see, like, who's been...

01:45:31.000 I mean, it's an even more complex puzzle.

01:45:33.000 Yeah, well, that's why, like, I've never really understood the argument of, like, pitting this person against that person, or, like, who's got the best Muay Thai and MMA? Well, nobody, because they're not doing Muay Thai.

01:45:43.000 They're doing MMA. Right.

01:45:44.000 So that argument, that conversation is completely invalid.

01:45:48.000 Like, oh, if you put this boxer in against this Muay Thai fighter, who's going to win?

01:45:52.000 I don't know what rules are they fighting under.

01:45:53.000 They're fighting under Muay Thai rules, he's probably going to get crushed.

01:45:56.000 Right.

01:45:56.000 You know what I mean?

01:45:57.000 Well, it's interesting that Wonderboy Thompson is going to fight Tyron Woodley, who's the UFC welterweight champion and who's this super powerful wrestler, but he's also training with Duke Rufus, who's obviously very talented, knows a lot about Muay Thai, great coach.

01:46:12.000 When you see a guy like that, the reason why I keep bringing up Wonderboy's style is because it's so unique.

01:46:18.000 We brought up Raymond Daniels in Glory, who's one of the only guys that has that similar background.

01:46:23.000 And then Michael Page, of course, in MMA who fights for Bellator, has a very similar style, too.

01:46:27.000 That sport karate style.

01:46:29.000 What are the holes in that style?

01:46:31.000 What's the pros and cons that you see as a guy?

01:46:33.000 I think what we were speaking of earlier, if you've never applied that in a fight, a real fight, not point sparring, not that kind of thing, there's certain techniques and things that are completely worthless.

01:46:50.000 And unfortunately, in a lot of those sports, you don't get exposed by that until it's way too late.

01:46:57.000 So you're trying these techniques that...

01:46:59.000 A decent person is just going to walk right through because they look good and they're flashy and they're great on the pads and all that, but when you have to damage someone...

01:47:09.000 Right.

01:47:09.000 Well, obviously Thompson knows how to do that, though.

01:47:11.000 Right, without a doubt.

01:47:12.000 And it's using those techniques but applying them in a more fight-centric way.

01:47:19.000 And it's a completely different thing.

01:47:21.000 But when you see, what I was trying to get at is that such a weird style where he stands sideways and he leaps in and out and he moves back and forth from the waist like a snake.

01:47:29.000 I mean, he's got a lot of, there's a lot of weirdness to the way he moves and it's very difficult to find anybody that has that level skill with sport karate, kickboxing, but also has a really good wrestling base too.

01:47:44.000 Yeah, and I think that's one of the biggest things and why he's able to apply those things because he can deal with the wrestling and everything else that goes in.

01:47:52.000 So that's why you'll see him throw those techniques because he's not as worried about it as someone who might be just as good as him with those things and has zero ground or wrestling where they're not going to throw because they're going to get taken down and crushed.

01:48:03.000 Yeah, it's like we were talking about your experience in a Taekwondo school, that you went there, and the first day you start doing sparring, you threw a low kick, and they're like, get out of here!

01:48:12.000 Get out of here! 0.99

01:48:13.000 Time to go.

01:48:14.000 You're doing something too effective.

01:48:16.000 Yeah.

01:48:16.000 So being able to apply things in a real fight and being able to apply them in the air is very different.

01:48:23.000 Right.

01:48:23.000 Obviously, we see Thompson can apply them in a real fight.

01:48:26.000 What is he doing that you see that's different?

01:48:30.000 Obviously, he's not a Muay Thai fighter.

01:48:32.000 He's a kickboxer.

01:48:33.000 But when you see that stance, that weird stance, that sideways stance, what do you think about that?

01:48:39.000 I don't think much about it because I don't watch a lot of MMA. You don't?

01:48:43.000 I mean, I do a little bit.

01:48:44.000 I wouldn't say I follow it.

01:48:46.000 I watch it when it's on, but I'm not paying attention to the fighters or tracking them throughout the years that much.

01:48:54.000 I'm just so curious because you're so Muay Thai.

01:48:57.000 Your style is so Muay Thai and you're obviously an expert at it.

01:49:00.000 I'm always curious as to how a person like you observes an expert striker in sort of another realm.

01:49:07.000 Well, I think he's an expert and he's become an expert striker in MMA. So he's applying all the techniques that he knows and have worked for him in MMA. So it's different than if he would get in the ring and do Muay Thai.

01:49:20.000 Yeah.

01:49:21.000 How many fighters like him have done Muay Thai?

01:49:23.000 Obviously, Raymond Daniels has done kickboxing.

01:49:26.000 Some, you know, but it's another one of those things where being able to apply the things from your other sport into that.

01:49:34.000 So, like we were talking about with Raymond Daniels and Nicky Holtzkin, like, he just walked him down and was like, bop, bop, crushing the legs.

01:49:42.000 And Valtellini, too.

01:49:43.000 Same thing, yeah.

01:49:44.000 At a certain level, you lose that, where your spinning flashy techniques are going to work against those mid-level guys, but you put them in there with the best in the world, and a lot of that stuff gets exposed and is not working out so well.

01:50:01.000 You think that essentially demonstrates the effectiveness of Muay Thai at the highest levels.

01:50:05.000 You think it's the best.

01:50:06.000 It demonstrates the holes in some of the stances and techniques.

01:50:10.000 If I'm not flinching on the things you do and don't really care so much about you hopping around and spinning around, I'm just walking down crushing you.

01:50:19.000 That's where that kind of gets exposed.

01:50:23.000 It's like putting a boxer into a Muay Thai fight. 0.78

01:50:26.000 All I'm going to do is kick your legs and you can't punch me. 0.93

01:50:28.000 Right. 0.99

01:50:29.000 You know what I mean?

01:50:29.000 But you take a boxer and teach them how to defend those kicks and stand in a little bit more of a squared up way where I can't use your weakness against you as much.

01:50:39.000 You're going to have much better success. 0.95

01:50:40.000 Even if you never throw a kick, now you just can take those kicks better and just kill me with your high level hands. 0.89

01:50:47.000 You said that you had taken some boxing matches? 0.94

01:50:50.000 I had four boxing fights, yeah.

01:50:52.000 And you just did it to stay active?

01:50:53.000 Yeah, I mean, they were all on like a week's notice.

01:50:56.000 One of them was like the day I got there, like, well, this was when I was saying I was having all those fights fall through, and I went to this fight, it was supposed to be a Muay Thai fight, and I told the promoter way ahead of time, like, look, I've had all these fights fall through, I'm not coming out there unless you have a fight for me.

01:51:12.000 I'm like, not only do you need to have a fight for me, I need you to have a backup guy for me as well.

01:51:15.000 He's like, don't worry, don't worry, we got it, we got it.

01:51:17.000 I'm like, I'll call them before I went out there and be like, so the guy's still gonna fight me, right?

01:51:21.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:51:21.000 You got the backup guy too, right?

01:51:23.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:51:23.000 Alright, get out there.

01:51:25.000 Well, yeah, they both backed out, so I don't know what we're gonna do.

01:51:30.000 I'm like, look, man.

01:51:31.000 Day of?

01:51:32.000 Day of.

01:51:32.000 Does that have much of an issue?

01:51:34.000 Oh, yeah. 0.99

01:51:35.000 And I was like, look, if you don't get me a fighter, you need to drag your ass in the ring and we're gonna fight because I killed myself and you promised me we had a fight. 0.99

01:51:42.000 He's like, oh, man, I'm gonna get you something. 0.99

01:51:43.000 I'm gonna get you somebody.

01:51:44.000 I'm like, alright, so I weighed in.

01:51:46.000 Left.

01:51:47.000 Came back.

01:51:48.000 He's like, well, we got somebody, but he's a boxer.

01:51:53.000 Do you want to do a boxing fight?

01:51:54.000 And I used to carry my boxing shoes with me just in case.

01:51:57.000 And I would bring my mouthpiece and my cup to fights even if I wasn't fighting just in case. 0.88

01:52:01.000 That's ridiculous. 0.66

01:52:03.000 That's just how we came up. 0.98

01:52:04.000 You know what I mean?

01:52:05.000 And he's like, well, you can box.

01:52:07.000 And I was like, all right.

01:52:08.000 All right, let's do it.

01:52:09.000 And this guy's standing right there.

01:52:10.000 He was freaking out because, one, he was like 20 pounds bigger than me.

01:52:13.000 I'd never boxed a day in my life before.

01:52:15.000 And he's like, what is wrong with this guy?

01:52:17.000 I was like, yeah, let's go, man.

01:52:18.000 He's like, well, he's 20 pounds heavy.

01:52:19.000 I'm like, I don't care.

01:52:20.000 I'm like, let's go.

01:52:21.000 I got some shoes.

01:52:22.000 I got some gloves.

01:52:23.000 Let's fight.

01:52:24.000 And I went out there and knocked him out.

01:52:26.000 And that was my first time boxing ever.

01:52:29.000 But it was always like that, like a last minute thing where I'm like, I can punch, man.

01:52:33.000 I'm going to do whatever I can do.

01:52:35.000 Now you're preparing for MMA. Yeah.

01:52:38.000 So how much different is your training?

01:52:40.000 Are you still taking Muay Thai fights as well?

01:52:42.000 Well, right now we're in the transition.

01:52:44.000 I just signed with Bellator.

01:52:45.000 I don't know what's coming next, if it's going to be kickboxing or MMA, but I'm definitely preparing for both.

01:52:51.000 So they haven't told you?

01:52:52.000 I don't know yet because I don't know what card I'm going to be on.

01:52:56.000 But my MMA training, even when we hit the paths, I stand differently.

01:53:01.000 I move differently when I'm training for MMA. You know, I'm doing a lot of MMA rounds, actually, with the guys from Team Cejudo.

01:53:09.000 Well, the good thing about MMA is it'll still allow you to do spinning elbows.

01:53:14.000 The bad thing about kickboxing is you can't do spinning elbows.

01:53:17.000 People don't know, that's one of your signature techniques, probably your signature technique.

01:53:21.000 Probably, yeah.

01:53:22.000 I mean, you had some spectacular knockouts in Lion Fight with spinning elbows.

01:53:26.000 Thank you, man, yeah. 0.98

01:53:28.000 How the fuck could they take that away? 0.99

01:53:30.000 That's ridiculous. 1.00

01:53:31.000 Yeah. 0.54

01:53:32.000 Well, you know, I'm really looking forward to doing both, to be honest.

01:53:35.000 I'm looking forward to, you know, improving on my boxing and really having to exercise that style of fighting.

01:53:41.000 And I'm really looking forward to doing MMA as well, you know.

01:53:44.000 And you were fighting 145 in Lion Fight?

01:53:47.000 140. So MMA, I don't know yet.

01:53:50.000 I'll probably start at 145, then going down to 135. You think you can make 135?

01:53:54.000 You're a big guy.

01:53:55.000 I made 139 last time.

01:53:58.000 How much do you weigh right now?

01:53:59.000 Probably like 160, 158. What the fuck? 1.00

01:54:02.000 God, everybody's just killing themselves. 1.00

01:54:05.000 That, to me, is one of the most unfortunate aspects of fighting, is the drastic weight cuts.

01:54:10.000 I just think that juice is not worth the squeeze. 0.96

01:54:14.000 I just feel like fighting itself is so goddamn difficult. 0.79

01:54:18.000 Like, why complicate it even further by dehydrating your brain 24 hours before the fight? 0.87

01:54:23.000 Yeah, and that's why I cut down so much, and I've been working with Mike Dolce for my last three camps, and it's been great.

01:54:28.000 What has Dolce got you doing differently?

01:54:31.000 Just the fact that he sends me all my diets.

01:54:35.000 I have an off-season diet as well.

01:54:39.000 I'm just getting ready all year round.

01:54:42.000 So do you have pre-prepped meals that are in the little containers and you open them up and they're all portioned out?

01:54:48.000 Out of the Cave is a meal prep company that we have out there in Dublin, and Kevin's sponsored by them too.

01:54:53.000 It's really easy.

01:54:55.000 I get my diet from Dolce.

01:54:57.000 I give Out of the Cave my diet, and I just get my meal prep every week.

01:55:00.000 Oh, that's nice.

01:55:01.000 That's gigantic.

01:55:02.000 It definitely makes it a lot easier to not have to worry about cooking, not have to worry about any of that, and just training, eating.

01:55:10.000 You're good.

01:55:11.000 That is gigantic.

01:55:12.000 Yeah.

01:55:13.000 Now, primarily, what kind of foods are you eating?

01:55:16.000 And do you vary that?

01:55:17.000 And do you have different results with different diets?

01:55:20.000 My last diet was pretty good.

01:55:22.000 I would have, like, oats in the morning.

01:55:24.000 Oats in the morning with chia seeds and hemp seeds and that kind of stuff.

01:55:28.000 Then I would have my first workout.

01:55:30.000 My second meal would be eggs.

01:55:32.000 And then at night, I would have, like, fish or chicken or anything like that with asparagus or broccoli.

01:55:38.000 I found that to be really successful, you know?

01:55:40.000 So if you do vary it, what do you vary as far as the fat content versus the carbohydrate content versus the protein content?

01:55:49.000 Do you mess around with that at all?

01:55:51.000 I used to do mostly a paleo diet.

01:55:54.000 It was 90% paleo except for a little bit of milk in my coffee.

01:55:59.000 But now I actually add all these grains like oats and brown rice at night and I feel great.

01:56:05.000 You feel better with that?

01:56:05.000 I feel better with that.

01:56:07.000 What is the difference between adding the grains and the extra carbs?

01:56:10.000 I have way more energy.

01:56:11.000 Interesting.

01:56:12.000 I have a lot more energy and my weight is even lower than it was when I was just trying to do all fruits and meats.

01:56:20.000 Yeah, there's a certain amount of carbohydrates that a lot of people that are involved in, like, very strenuous shit, like whether it's triathletes or somewhere along those lines.

01:56:29.000 Like, there's a lot of people that try, maybe they go with a ketogenic diet.

01:56:34.000 I tried that a little bit and I just had no energy.

01:56:37.000 It did not work for me.

01:56:38.000 I've heard that.

01:56:39.000 Like, I was just like, I felt like I was brain dead.

01:56:41.000 How long did you do it for?

01:56:42.000 It was like about a couple weeks.

01:56:44.000 Oh yeah, see that's the problem.

01:56:46.000 You're supposed to wait.

01:56:48.000 You're supposed to not even do anything strenuous for the first three or four weeks until your body transitions over.

01:56:53.000 But in my case, I'm always trying to get ready for fights.

01:56:56.000 I was just like, dude, I have no energy.

01:56:58.000 I don't know what to do.

01:56:59.000 They call it the keto flu.

01:57:01.000 Yeah.

01:57:02.000 I know some guys have made the transition successfully and then they compete and they do a lot of things, burning off fats.

01:57:10.000 But I'm always curious about extreme people, like people that are doing ultramarathons, people that are doing things that are extreme energy requirements, you know? 0.98

01:57:21.000 Yeah, well, I was living with Karin at the time, and he was like, after like a little bit, he's like, dude, what the fuck are you doing, man? 1.00

01:57:27.000 This shit's not working for you. 0.99

01:57:28.000 You need carbs, you need grains, you need that stuff, otherwise you're not going to have any juice, man. 1.00

01:57:34.000 Well, if you talk to Mark Sisson, who he calls his diet the primal blueprint.

01:57:40.000 The whole problem with the term paleo is that the Paleolithic era, they ate a lot of grains.

01:57:45.000 Yeah.

01:57:45.000 I mean, that's just not historically accurate.

01:57:48.000 It's not a good word for it.

01:57:49.000 Yeah.

01:57:50.000 But the people that are successful with it, apparently there's a curve where you go through that keto flu stage for a few weeks and then you get better.

01:58:01.000 But I've talked to people that never get better.

01:58:03.000 I know some friends, jujitsu friends, that went through the whole process and didn't train hard for three or four weeks and got themselves to a state of ketosis but just did not feel right.

01:58:14.000 I mean, I know it works for power lifters and stuff like that, and people like that, but me as a fighter, personally experienced it for a little bit, I just would not do it again.

01:58:23.000 Well, your description shows me that you didn't really get through it.

01:58:27.000 You can't do it for two weeks.

01:58:29.000 I mean, he told me, like Mark Sisson, when I did it, he told me, don't do anything hard for three weeks.

01:58:34.000 Don't do anything.

01:58:35.000 He's like, even if you're on the treadmill for 45 minutes, just at a slow pace, that's probably too much.

01:58:39.000 I think that was my mistake.

01:58:40.000 You know, I was training just as hard as I always do, but trying to eat like that, I was like...

01:58:44.000 Yeah.

01:58:45.000 It takes your body a while, apparently, to make that adaptation.

01:58:49.000 But it is controversial.

01:58:50.000 I mean, it works for me and it works for some people, but obviously my lifestyle doesn't have the same energy requirements that your lifestyle does when you're training for fights.

01:58:57.000 Yeah.

01:58:57.000 I mean, like all things, you've got to find what works out best for you.

01:59:00.000 That's why I'll make the adjustments I feel like I need if I feel like I need some more carbs, some more grains on a certain day or going into a certain workout.

01:59:09.000 I'm going to have them.

01:59:10.000 That's why I wouldn't say I have a specific diet because it varies.

01:59:14.000 It varies how I'm feeling, what's working, what's not working.

01:59:17.000 Do you guys get blood work done?

01:59:18.000 Do you get your blood work checked out?

01:59:20.000 I actually have.

01:59:22.000 I've got a buddy in Vegas who does that.

01:59:25.000 Years back, you know, I had my blood looked out.

01:59:28.000 It was messed up, man.

01:59:29.000 I had a lot of plaque in my blood and stuff, and I was really surprised.

01:59:33.000 It looked like it was really unhealthy, and I never would have known that if I never had gotten it done.

01:59:37.000 What were you eating at the time?

01:59:38.000 Same stuff I'm eating.

01:59:39.000 I think it was more of a hereditary thing than as far as my diet.

01:59:43.000 Really?

01:59:44.000 Yeah, and got me on a lot of, like, the red algae, and I don't remember everything, but got it completely clear.

01:59:51.000 It was just crazy to see it.

01:59:53.000 Like, I could see the blood, and, like, he showed me, like, you know, how it's moving around.

01:59:58.000 So, like, yeah, there's a big chunk of crystals right there.

02:00:00.000 He's like, that's not good, man.

02:00:02.000 If this gets any worse, he was, like, really surprised by how bad it was.

02:00:05.000 Was this guy a doctor, or is he, like, a...

02:00:07.000 Healer.

02:00:08.000 No, no, he was a PhD.

02:00:10.000 He's legit?

02:00:10.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:00:11.000 Healer. 1.00

02:00:11.000 There's a lot of fucking people. 1.00

02:00:12.000 You'd be amazed. 1.00

02:00:13.000 Like, world-class athletes that go to quacks. 1.00

02:00:16.000 Uh-huh.

02:00:17.000 And, you know, they'll come back and tell you something.

02:00:19.000 Well, I'm balancing out my alkaline and my energy and my chakras.

02:00:22.000 What?

02:00:23.000 Huh?

02:00:24.000 What's going on?

02:00:24.000 Yeah, it was nice to visibly be able to see it, like him take the blood, put it on things.

02:00:30.000 So you could see it in a microscope?

02:00:32.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:00:33.000 Wow.

02:00:33.000 So we had it on a projection up on the wall, and I cleared it up within a month or two.

02:00:39.000 What about like vitamin supplementation or things along those lines?

02:00:43.000 Well now I'm hooked up with Onnit and all their amazing stuff.

02:00:47.000 So I've been hooked up taking all their multivitamins and things like that, which I think all their stuff is really amazing.

02:00:54.000 Yeah, we try. 0.99

02:00:55.000 We try to get the best shit. 0.99

02:00:56.000 Yeah, their stuff is awesome. 0.99

02:00:57.000 I mean, like, I have days, you know, towards the end of camp that I'm like, dude, like, I cannot, like, even with my diet and everything, like, you're so sore, you've busted your ass for so long, you know, you're like, I just can't.

02:01:08.000 And I've taken that AlphaBrain stuff, and, like, that stuff puts you on, for sure.

02:01:13.000 It's a great thing to take before workouts.

02:01:15.000 Yeah.

02:01:15.000 A lot of people don't think of it as that because you think of it as something for mental energy or for your memory or for clarity.

02:01:23.000 I take it during sparring and I feel like I'm on, like 100%.

02:01:28.000 Well, I feel like mental fatigue is a huge factor in physical fatigue.

02:01:33.000 Enormous.

02:01:33.000 Yeah, which is one of the next questions I wanted to talk to you guys about.

02:01:37.000 Sources of inspiration.

02:01:39.000 Do you actively seek out inspiration?

02:01:43.000 You know, personally, when I was...

02:01:46.000 When was it when I got knocked out?

02:01:47.000 18?

02:01:48.000 17?

02:01:49.000 When I got knocked out, I had a really bad time after that.

02:01:53.000 Like I said, I was invincible, and then I had a really bad weight cut.

02:01:57.000 That happened.

02:01:58.000 And then Karian brought out Kevin to help me out.

02:02:01.000 So Kevin's been my inspiration since he moved out.

02:02:07.000 Every day, just seeing this guy, how hard he works and everything he puts on the line every day, that's been my inspiration since then.

02:02:15.000 I knew Kevin before that.

02:02:17.000 The first time I ever saw Kevin fight, I thought he was going to lose.

02:02:21.000 He fought Coke.

02:02:23.000 I was supposed to be in that car, the fight fell through, and then I watch him, and then I'm talking to Kieran on the side, and he's like...

02:02:27.000 He was betting against me, man.

02:02:29.000 I was like, dude...

02:02:30.000 Who'd you fight?

02:02:31.000 Coke.

02:02:31.000 I was like, dude...

02:02:32.000 What's his full name?

02:02:34.000 Chenowat.

02:02:34.000 Chenowat?

02:02:35.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:02:36.000 And that was when I was like, damn, who's that? 0.99

02:02:39.000 Because at first I was like, dude, white boy's about to get smashed. 0.99

02:02:44.000 And Kieran's like, you don't know Kevin Ross, dude.

02:02:47.000 I know Kevin Ross.

02:02:48.000 He's about to smash this guy.

02:02:50.000 And I was like, after the fight, I was like, dude, that's my new favorite fighter.

02:02:54.000 Yeah, that's funny.

02:02:55.000 And you get to train with him.

02:02:56.000 Yeah.

02:02:57.000 What I meant was, do you seek inspiration?

02:02:59.000 Like, do you read books about inspiration?

02:03:02.000 Or do you read anything about mindset or psychology or anything along those lines?

02:03:08.000 I read a lot.

02:03:10.000 More along the lines of biographies and stuff.

02:03:13.000 I read Mickey Ward's book, which is amazing.

02:03:19.000 It's that Unbroken book, which is unbelievable.

02:03:23.000 What's Unbroken?

02:03:25.000 Angelina Jolie made that movie about it, but it's about... 0.97

02:03:28.000 What's that freaking guy's name? 0.88

02:03:30.000 The Runner guy? 0.98

02:03:32.000 Yeah, he was a runner, and then it was World War II. That was a great movie.

02:03:35.000 I thought it was really good.

02:03:37.000 Oh, that was the Japanese people torturing him, and he wouldn't give up? 1.00

02:03:40.000 Yeah, dude, but read that book.

02:03:43.000 Man, the movie is such a small fraction of what this dude went through.

02:03:50.000 Seeing how much stuff he overcome, not once, not twice.

02:03:54.000 Every time you think there's no way this guy can overcome this, he did it again, did it again, did it again, did it again.

02:04:00.000 Unbelievable stuff, man.

02:04:01.000 It's one of my more favorite books.

02:04:04.000 But people like that, I'd say I'd seek that out and look for stories of inspiration, not just fighters, but in any art or aspect of life in general.

02:04:15.000 Seeing the things that...

02:04:17.000 People overcome.

02:04:18.000 As I said earlier, if you go and look at anyone's story who's ever made it, you can take inspiration for them.

02:04:24.000 Seeing the struggles they went through, it's unbelievable.

02:04:29.000 When we don't know these things, we think of ourselves as the only ones that have to overcome stuff or are dealing with things that That might have slowed us down, but you're like, well, that guy had way worse than I ever did.

02:04:40.000 You know what I mean?

02:04:40.000 And that's why I've always tried to be very vocal about the things I've struggled with and overcome.

02:04:45.000 And like the first highlight video I ever had done for me, it was very important for me to show myself getting knocked out and dropped and all these things.

02:04:52.000 I'm like, everyone just shows these highlights of their life.

02:04:55.000 It gives you a very skewed perception of what it is we have to deal with and go through, especially to reach a certain level.

02:05:01.000 Like...

02:05:02.000 It's terrible, man.

02:05:03.000 We go through a lot and people don't know it because you just see the end result of all this hard work and you see the glamour and the lights and the highlights and stuff, but you don't know what people have come with and dealt with, things that would crush most people.

02:05:16.000 I think what's really important about inspirational videos and books and biographies and things along those lines is it gives you an insight into someone's perspective that you...

02:05:30.000 You can find parallels.

02:05:31.000 You find parallels to your own life and it normalizes some things that might just seem incredibly confusing because maybe to you it's the first time you've had to overcome something that's so difficult.

02:05:42.000 But then you find out that other people have done it as well and it kind of You can take a lot of comfort in people that have gone before you.

02:05:50.000 We've all had to overcome something.

02:05:55.000 Just sitting down and talking to somebody, hearing their story, it can be very inspirational and really help you overcome anything you might be facing.

02:06:06.000 And again, that's why I've always tried to be very vocal about my story and share some of my fight experiences or training experience or life experiences because Most people, they don't ever hear that side of fame, if you want to call it that.

02:06:21.000 They don't see that.

02:06:22.000 It doesn't get put out there like the successes do.

02:06:26.000 We see everyone's success.

02:06:27.000 We don't see their failures.

02:06:29.000 That's one of the things that I think is interesting about you.

02:06:39.000 Yeah.

02:06:52.000 To those that are coming up.

02:06:53.000 Well, it's something that's been very important to me because, like, as I was coming up, you know, before YouTube and everything, like, I didn't really have anyone to look at and be like, well, he did it, I can do it too.

02:07:03.000 So it was very, it still is very important to me.

02:07:07.000 One of the most important things to me to show people that they can do it, you know, and to show people...

02:07:14.000 How late I started and where I was and the things I've overcome because when you've seen that someone's done it before you or similar and overcome these things, it makes it that much easier for the next person.

02:07:26.000 There's a really amazing book called The Rise of Superman and I don't know if you've ever read it.

02:07:30.000 They talk about...

02:07:32.000 Like the leaps we've made in athletics.

02:07:36.000 They were more talking about extreme sports.

02:07:39.000 One of the things they were talking about was the four-minute mile.

02:07:43.000 That used to be physically thought of as impossible, whereas now it becomes a requirement.

02:07:49.000 For people to do.

02:07:50.000 And like kids in high school are doing it.

02:07:51.000 Where they used to think of it as like there's no way you can physically do this.

02:07:55.000 And they brought up I think it was like the 900 on a skateboard.

02:08:00.000 Like it was impossible to do.

02:08:01.000 It's like there's no way you can do this.

02:08:03.000 And then Tony Hawk or whoever did it.

02:08:05.000 And now eight-year-old kids can pull this off because that thing that's viewed as impossible becomes the norm.

02:08:12.000 And as soon as that happens, you can get to the next level and the next level and the next level.

02:08:15.000 And the only way to do that is for someone to break through whatever that impossible thing is.

02:08:20.000 And if these things aren't put out there and people don't know about them, you're still always viewing that barrier as this is as high as we can go.

02:08:30.000 In that sense, do you think of yourself or view yourself as a part of this process?

02:08:36.000 100%.

02:08:37.000 Yeah, 100%.

02:08:38.000 I've always felt like...

02:08:41.000 I've always known where, speaking about Muay Thai, where the sport could go.

02:08:47.000 You know, coming up, I never thought I'd still be actively doing it while it got out there and got the exposure it's been getting recently.

02:08:56.000 But I always knew I would be a person that helped it go along.

02:08:59.000 And that was a huge thing that kept me from ever venturing full-time into MMA or into boxing.

02:09:05.000 Because I was like, there's only a handful of us doing this.

02:09:07.000 Me and Joe Schilling and Tiffany and Kai and a lot of other people.

02:09:11.000 I was like, if there's only a handful of us doing this at this level and going out there and taking these almost impossible fights, and I leave, who's there to do this?

02:09:21.000 Who's going to do this?

02:09:23.000 Somebody's got to go through the gate.

02:09:24.000 And get bloodied up.

02:09:25.000 You know, that first person has to do it.

02:09:27.000 And I can't, like, pass this off on somebody else.

02:09:30.000 I can't give up.

02:09:31.000 Like, that's gonna make it that much harder for them.

02:09:33.000 So, yeah, I've always felt like I needed to be the inspiration I wanted to see in the world.

02:09:38.000 Do you find a great benefit in being able to train with him because of that?

02:09:43.000 I mean, before, when we first started training together, dude, I would get this, like, adrenaline dumps when I was sparring with him.

02:09:49.000 I was like...

02:09:51.000 I was like, oh my god, I'm sparring with Kevin Ross, and then slowly it would get better, and now we've become great training partners, and he's been a huge part of my career, obviously.

02:10:01.000 I mean, yeah, definitely.

02:10:04.000 Well, you're the up-and-comer, you know?

02:10:06.000 And then, of course, you've got...

02:10:09.000 Guys that are coming up that are in the same place that you were a few years ago and you get to see it now, that it is this sort of long, crazy chain of events and this process that really essentially you only get a couple decades out of it if you're lucky,

02:10:27.000 if you're super, super lucky.

02:10:29.000 And it's such an unbelievably difficult experience.

02:10:34.000 Endeavor to do what you guys are doing. 0.93

02:10:36.000 And I'm a fucking huge fan. 0.87

02:10:38.000 So to me, this podcast was awesome. 0.99

02:10:41.000 I'm like a kid in a candy store.

02:10:42.000 I hope people got a lot out of it.

02:10:43.000 Hey, we feel the same way, man.

02:10:45.000 We're really happy to be here and, you know, been wanting to do this for a really long time.

02:10:48.000 This is awesome.

02:10:49.000 Let's do it again sometime, man.

02:10:50.000 Maybe when you guys aren't fighting, we'll do a fight companion. 0.99

02:10:53.000 Have some fights on and come in and we'll talk some shit. 0.99

02:10:56.000 Alright, your Twitter is... 1.00

02:10:59.000 Bolanos Gaston.

02:11:02.000 Instagram, dreamkiller underscore Bolanos.

02:11:05.000 And you are...

02:11:07.000 That's Soul Assassin with a D-A, Soul Assassin.

02:11:09.000 That's my Twitter as well as my Instagram.

02:11:11.000 Beautiful.

02:11:12.000 And Combat Sports Academy, how do they get a hold of your gym, Kieran?

02:11:17.000 CSA. CSA Gym everywhere.

02:11:21.000 Find it.

02:11:22.000 Google it.

02:11:23.000 You'll get there.

02:11:24.000 All right, folks.

02:11:25.000 Thank you so much.

02:11:25.000 We'll be back later tonight with Wim Hof.

02:11:28.000 The Iceman returns tonight at 8 o'clock.

02:11:31.000 Bye!

The Joe Rogan Experience - October 24, 2016

Joe Rogan Experience #864 - Kevin Ross & Gaston Bolanos

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