The King's Hall - Holding Frame & The War for Normal

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00:00:56.600 in this episode of the king's hall podcast we are talking about the war for normal which just so

00:01:08.540 happens to be the theme for our upcoming conference here in ogden this june what does that mean the

00:01:13.440 war for normal well something like this we live in an upside down world black is white white is

00:01:24.260 black, right is wrong, wrong is right. What our grandparents thought of as normal life is now seen

00:01:30.320 as radical, fringe, extreme, cultic, crazy. Get married, have kids, and raise them to worship the

00:01:37.840 God who made them? The world will hate you. You are a fake Christian. If you simply love the world

00:01:43.340 that God made, love it with all its glorious textures and hues, hierarchy and order, law and

00:01:49.480 justice and you may just see riots forming outside your front door. What are we fighting

00:01:55.900 for, saints? Some kind of radical utopia? Some kind of crazy internet-driven fever dream?

00:02:02.280 Something extreme, fringe, cultic, or insane? No, we're at war for normal.

00:02:12.500 Whether you find them at work in the Marxist left, the apostate sons of greater American

00:02:17.600 forefathers, blue-haired Antifa terrorists, or the mainline PCUSA down the street. Satan and

00:02:24.220 his servants are ceaselessly at work in the world to smash up normal and create a hellish utopia

00:02:29.820 from the pieces. The Christian life is not about wild innovation, radicalism, or utopian fever

00:02:36.280 dreams. No, the Christian life is normal life, a return to the ordinary glory of creation,

00:02:41.680 a return to life as God intended it, strong families, happy kids, satisfying work, safe

00:02:47.760 communities, faithful churches, nations knit together by love for one another in the name

00:02:52.760 of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Christian life is a war for normal. Join us right here in Ogden,

00:02:59.420 Utah this summer, June 11th through the 13th, for our annual New Christendom Press Conference,

00:03:04.600 where we'll be aiming to equip you for this great war for normal. Normal families, normal churches,

00:03:09.380 normal men and women in business and friendships and dinner tables,

00:03:12.860 normal cities and counties and states and nations.

00:03:15.740 This year is more affordable than ever with our new Family Pass,

00:03:19.320 a single ticket that covers your whole household.

00:03:22.120 Head to thewarfornormal.com today for tickets and more information.

00:03:25.980 We'll also be taking the entire first day of the conference,

00:03:28.900 all of Thursday, for the sake of friendship and fellowship.

00:03:32.360 With events ranging from a family hangout at the park

00:03:35.060 to our first-ever golf tournament

00:03:36.860 to the bigger-than-ever New Christendom Press games,

00:03:39.380 featuring a series of strength and endurance competitions,

00:03:42.700 culminating in the crowning of this year's champions.

00:03:45.360 We'll also have a pastor's breakfast, business networking lunch,

00:03:49.200 singles mixer, a live concert, and more.

00:03:52.200 We hope you can make it, and we'll see you there.

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00:04:11.340 Yeah, man, I've been microplastic maxing lately.

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00:04:15.880 It's, uh, it's not great.

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00:06:53.160 Welcome to this episode of the King's Hall Podcast.

00:06:55.660 I'm one of your hosts, Eric Kahn, joined by the one, the only, Brian Suave.

00:07:01.300 Oh, let's go.

00:07:02.860 You're just looking good, man.

00:07:04.140 I'm so close to sub 20% body fat, Eric, and I just want this whole podcast now to be about that.

00:07:09.020 honestly i can't think of a subject i'd rather talk about the war for normal body fat percentage

00:07:15.320 normal as in we're all not fat you probably missed this you probably missed this but the

00:07:21.600 uh afc championship game yesterday okay it was making waves not because the game the game was

00:07:26.700 horrible it was awful yeah however there was this ad that ran and it's this guy that's like 500

00:07:31.860 pounds okay and they're like he's like don't body shame me i've been dieting since i was 13

00:07:39.000 we're watching this it's about don't body shame but you're watching this and my youngest son goes

00:07:44.160 man that guy's fat how you have been on a diet since you were 13 like in the sense that the

00:07:53.040 word diet can just describe whatever you eat no matter what yeah but like certainly not certainly

00:07:58.540 not a good diet yeah so we're going to be talking about the war for normal and one of the things we

00:08:02.880 want to normalize is body shaming it's like bring it back so so true since i actually you can look

00:08:10.200 at the day stamp on my twitter since i encourage all of my friends to call me fat every day on

00:08:14.680 twitter i have lost 20 pounds and six points of body fat percentage yesterday someone did it again

00:08:21.160 they said you're still fat don't give up and i said thank you king keep telling me that body

00:08:26.340 until i'm sub 15 say it body shaming works 100 it works it's good in fact absolutely we are

00:08:33.300 going to make body we're going to make body fat shaming great again you know what's funny somebody

00:08:37.940 somebody posted this too and this has changed it shows how much change has happened like how far

00:08:42.820 away from normal we've gotten but you remember george costanza and seinfeld was supposed to be

00:08:47.300 like comically fat oh right yeah they showed a photo of him with his shirt off and he was like

00:08:51.640 he he looks felt compared to most americans oh totally he's just an average guy now yeah like

00:08:57.640 and maybe even a little bit above a little cut above little there was a guy on twitter today

00:09:03.240 who was threatening me with bodily harm i'm pretty sure dude had three chins and i responded what are

00:09:08.780 you going to do threaten me with your second or third chin people claim that i have three chins

00:09:13.320 under this beard no it's not true it's not true there's there's just another fifth there's two

00:09:17.480 and a half that's it well yes well here we are war for normal brian i thought it would be

00:09:24.240 interesting first of all to sort of get your take on on where this idea came from obviously we're

00:09:30.340 talking about the conference yeah um a lot of people have asked hey what what is this about

00:09:34.560 and so kind of i want to know the deep lore yeah the deep lore is is interesting for this for this

00:09:41.060 conference it was from a conversation that we had with a friend of the show steven wolf dr steven

00:09:47.160 wolf to you just steven if you're cool okay and he was out for the conference obviously he he spoke

00:09:53.060 and you can go listen to his talks if you want they were really good uh the one on the one on

00:09:57.340 home did he did he do one or two at the last one time he did one it was on home yeah it was so good

00:10:01.480 and uh he's writing a book for us on that subject by the way yeah out soon so uh he he was out for

00:10:07.620 the conference it was like the premier in a lot of ways to a lot of people it was like the premier

00:10:11.760 i think talk of the conference yeah i think it was the best talk of the conference people people

00:10:16.220 were in tears yeah it was it was deeply moving just really captured the spirit of home home

00:10:22.360 what we're fighting for home is a gift like that your fathers give you yeah it was so good so we

00:10:27.500 were talking um i can't remember exactly when halfway through the conference and he was he was

00:10:33.440 just commenting on not only the people at the conference but also just kind of more specifically

00:10:39.080 the the members of the church the local ogden families like the people at our church and and

00:10:45.140 he was like, these are just normal. Like what's, what was striking was just how to him was how

00:10:50.200 normal everybody was. It wasn't weird, awkward, culty, Christian subculture obsessed with talking

00:10:57.600 about some random fill in the blank, hyper specific doctrinal thing or whatever. He was like,

00:11:03.640 these are just normal people, normal families, normal men, normal women, normal kids, and not

00:11:09.260 normal in the sense of like, oh, they're dead average to the culture of America. Like in all

00:11:14.920 of the worst ways or normies, but that they were actually embodying what normal human life is

00:11:22.300 supposed to look like. Good friendships, good homes, discipline of kids. Kids are well-behaved,

00:11:30.420 groomed well, look loved, well-loved, wives that look like their husbands love them,

00:11:35.440 wives that respect their husbands, you know, not weird furry throuples, but a normal man and a

00:11:42.120 normal woman with a normal marriage and normal kids and normal dinner tables do you know most

00:11:47.300 of them not obsessed with ecclesiastical matters even like not everybody was a wannabe pastor

00:11:51.720 church planter they're like oh i'm a plumber i'm a business owner i'm a i'm an engineer i'm the and

00:11:56.580 like everyone that he was meeting was they were just normal christians who were well adjusted

00:12:00.240 and that that is what we're about in ogden it was really helpful actually and very encouraging

00:12:06.520 super encouraging conversation to hear kind of an outside report card from a guy i trust

00:12:11.960 as like a temperature check of the community what is your experience of our community like

00:12:17.480 as an outsider who's never you know been here haven't seen much of it um well this is one of

00:12:24.420 the things i think aaron wren talks about in life in the negative world so he he had a series of

00:12:29.600 posts on it i think but he also has a book and at the end he said one of the ways i think that we

00:12:34.020 win uh people from america in particular but one of the ways that we win people who don't know the

00:12:39.580 lord is through a superior culture yeah and he said part of the problem is you go to a lot of

00:12:45.300 communities and you know you can think of conferences maybe that a lot of us have been to

00:12:50.860 and you go there and and you're excited for the speakers but then you know you go to the conference

00:12:56.520 and there's like a weird group of guys who are trying to debate you on polygamy or no i mean

00:13:02.260 like this is so true this has happened and they're like how many wives do you have well none but i

00:13:07.260 mean like yeah i'm aspiring and then like they're really weird they're really autistic

00:13:11.600 and it's it's probably in the long run not going to win anybody because you're not winning somebody

00:13:18.040 to something so i think of what we were talking about in the office the other day this eric hoffer

00:13:23.660 quote where he said basically if the communists are going to win europe they will have to do it

00:13:30.220 not through championing disdain and discontentment but through what he called sort of a radical hope

00:13:36.020 and i think one of the things that fills people most i think a post-millennial vision

00:13:40.140 fills people most with hope is being being able to see in the midst of our you know trash world

00:13:45.560 yeah that here you have godly families there's not like hidden sins they're being pastored well

00:13:52.160 which i think is a big part of this yeah um but they're just thriving yeah and it's actually

00:13:56.940 beautiful and that beauty is set against the stuff of the left which is ugly and grotesque

00:14:02.620 Yeah. Even the obesity thing, celebrating obesity. I mean, fundamentally, like you have a gag reflex.

00:14:09.260 You look at it and you think this is revolting. It shouldn't be this. There's something. It

00:14:12.720 shouldn't be this way. Yeah. So I guess with that conversation, talking about normal,

00:14:18.960 maybe get a little more into kind of defining normal. Like what are we, we're not saying,

00:14:23.320 as you mentioned, we're not saying the status quo in America right now. No, no. The goal is

00:14:29.580 important because like you said every every visionary everybody who's leading is like

00:14:34.920 napoleon said is dealing in hope and there there are false hopes and there are good hopes the the

00:14:39.980 false hope that that satan is always peddling in the world through his revolutionaries and etc and

00:14:45.120 his wreckers is is always a false hope of like here just believe me and do what i say follow my

00:14:51.600 norms and you will get utopia you will get joy you will get flourishing everybody it will fix

00:14:56.680 all of your problems. The communism was like this. Marxism is like this. We're going to fix

00:15:01.080 class warfare. We're going to stop you from getting, you know, destroyed by the elites who

00:15:07.400 are robbing you, the capitalists. We're going to stop you. And though a lot of their specific

00:15:13.220 solutions were bad, the reason that they have been so wildly effective in history and revolutionaries

00:15:19.260 like this have worked, you know, their spirit has worked through so many societies, is because a lot

00:15:24.960 of the time they're latching onto real problems and offering solutions in hope of fixing things.

00:15:32.600 The problem is that their norms are wrong. Their norming of the world is all upside down. Black

00:15:39.220 is white, white is black. What we're saying is that God created the world and in his act of

00:15:45.580 creation, he worked into the fabric of nature dozens and hundreds and thousands of norms.

00:15:52.320 These are things that are good and right and that are in accord.

00:15:55.880 They're harmonious with living that would be joyful and bring good fruit.

00:16:02.100 So there are norms in marriage.

00:16:03.700 There are norms in men. 0.76

00:16:05.560 There are norms in women.

00:16:07.300 There are norms in economic practices. 0.99

00:16:10.180 There are norms in beauty.

00:16:12.020 There are norms in goodness.

00:16:13.640 There are norms in all these different aspects of the world.

00:16:16.660 They're not invented by people.

00:16:18.580 they are discovered by people because God is the normer. He normed the world. So when we say that

00:16:25.300 we're at war for normal, we're saying we need to return, all caps with the V, we need to return

00:16:32.700 to the norms that God built into the world. And when you do that, it's interesting. It will,

00:16:38.860 like in some ways, it looks more or less radical depending on how close to the norm you are as a

00:16:44.060 society. So the further you get from the norm, the more radical it will look to some people

00:16:47.960 or to the people who are trying to smash out normal

00:16:49.920 and make utopia from the pieces.

00:16:52.120 But what's interesting is that

00:16:53.800 the closer you get to these norms,

00:16:55.960 it looks normal.

00:16:57.480 It doesn't look crazy.

00:16:59.820 It doesn't look cultic.

00:17:02.080 It's not weird.

00:17:03.960 There's not this sense of like,

00:17:06.300 there's some dark secret and underbelly to this community.

00:17:10.400 And you get that.

00:17:11.220 I think people have a good horse sense for this.

00:17:13.080 Like when you get in a certain

00:17:15.620 neo-conservative movements or neo-fundamentalist movements or things like that some of them like

00:17:20.200 there was a lot of good in some of them but then there was also a seedy kind of abnormal it was

00:17:26.000 away from god's norms you know maybe gothard as an example there was like some patriarchy in there

00:17:30.860 but some of it was it wasn't wasn't gooch it wasn't classical good patriarchy there was some

00:17:34.800 weird bad stuff mixed in and when you looked at it you'd be like something's off here yeah wives

00:17:39.900 aren't doing quite well kids kids aren't doing quite well here so you have people have a horse

00:17:44.440 sense. And what they're detecting, I'm trying to give them language for it, is proximity to God's

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00:18:31.280 Yeah, it's really interesting because this type of thinking that you're talking about,

00:18:34.920 smashing up the pieces of God's order and creating utopia, it seems to come into the world,

00:18:39.880 especially through the enlightenment and french revolution you have guys like marquis de saad

00:18:45.040 you know robespierre on the political front rousseau and really what they're telling people

00:18:50.860 is that you could have true freedom and liberty if you smashed up god's moral order yep so if you

00:18:55.860 destroy hierarchy if you destroy sexual mores that were from the christian tradition yep then you

00:19:01.460 would have liberty get rid of all the kings get rid of all of the rules get rid of all the norms

00:19:05.880 get rid of all the structural beams of society that were not actually it turns out placed there

00:19:10.600 by man alone yeah but they were placed there by god in his act of creation yeah so one of the

00:19:15.940 the really interesting things from the french revolution you you get this concept that all of

00:19:20.260 the good norms of god's created order are social constructs so this is also one reason why we've

00:19:27.440 kind of harped on this even on things like racial issues you're following the egalitarians when you

00:19:34.220 fundamentally say race is a social construct it's just that the enlightenment started doing that

00:19:39.260 with everything with sex with sex piety as we've come to talk about it or even as people talk today

00:19:45.560 like i don't like the word but like gender norms yeah yeah but those things and here's what we're

00:19:50.220 saying those things are actually not social constructs no some of the expressions can be

00:19:55.260 socially constructed like victorian era had some some weird social constructions but fundamentally

00:20:00.140 they were trying to follow the warp and woof of god's created order that's right and what happens

00:20:04.700 when you do that is that different societies and places and families and lineages interacting with

00:20:11.660 the soil and the land and the the climate and the history and their forefathers they develop their

00:20:17.480 own personalities yeah and so they you are going to get different norms in society that are moored

00:20:24.460 to some absolute creational norm,

00:20:27.600 but then they go and they develop their own personality.

00:20:30.280 And that's good.

00:20:31.280 That's actually a good thing.

00:20:32.500 God wanted that when he made the world.

00:20:35.180 It's why he made it.

00:20:37.400 There's so many variations on a theme in God's world.

00:20:39.920 There is not just a bird.

00:20:41.240 There are many species of birds.

00:20:43.360 There's not just,

00:20:44.400 God made a world where every dog that exists today

00:20:46.760 descended through often, in most cases,

00:20:49.980 actually human breeding to have this vast plethora.

00:20:53.960 you'd have a Chihuahua and a Great Dane, and they're all descended from, there's this variation

00:20:59.720 on a theme. God seems to love that. And so when we say norming things to God's norms,

00:21:06.740 it actually doesn't mean, it's the opposite of removing all personality from a community.

00:21:11.520 So the goal isn't like make every community Ogden in all of its personality. You actually can't do

00:21:19.220 that without some great degree of artificiality because the norm the norming of ogden part of how

00:21:24.380 god did it was by bringing certain people well this is this is an interesting point i think bat

00:21:28.900 brings up but the the egalitarian mind hates distinction and so that includes hierarchy but

00:21:34.680 it also includes things like beauty absolutely and so you'll always find with the globalist

00:21:39.240 impulse that it's to flatten everything it's to create you know one giant economic zone yep um

00:21:45.080 which, and we're actually saying the opposite

00:21:46.820 that you should have, I even think in America,

00:21:49.000 like a community like ours that came up in Ohio

00:21:52.500 would probably look different.

00:21:54.120 It'd be very different.

00:21:55.060 And I think New England would look the same,

00:21:57.080 you know, they would have the same degree of differences

00:21:59.220 among their communities.

00:22:01.020 So it's not a monochromatic thing.

00:22:03.320 Exactly.

00:22:04.060 And part of the celebration of beauty

00:22:05.620 is that distinctness of culture and people.

00:22:08.160 Yeah, this is 1 Corinthians 12.

00:22:10.300 It's on my mind because I've been preaching through it,

00:22:12.360 as you know.

00:22:12.660 and this this brilliant illustration that paul deploys is so important in understanding how god

00:22:18.220 works where the the the christian people are a body they're one body and this is an absolute

00:22:24.960 truth that is true regardless of how they feel about it whether they are obeying all the

00:22:30.120 implications of this truth or not like you can be squabbling in disunity like the corinthian church

00:22:34.220 was factions and all sorts of things and god would still look at them and be like you're still one

00:22:38.440 body. It's still true. But it's not one body that's made up of all identical cells that have

00:22:44.380 just split and mitosis and replicated. It's not just like a sludge of some kind of organism like

00:22:52.040 an, I don't know, an algae bloom that's just a bunch of replicated identical cells sitting on

00:22:57.780 top of the water doing its algae thing. Algae is cool. God made it, whatever. But we're not like

00:23:02.260 that. We're an organism that's unified in its purpose and its activities are coordinated by

00:23:08.680 a central head, which is Christ. But then within that body, there is a vast degree of variegation

00:23:15.500 and distinctness. So you have hands and feet and mouths and you have presentable and

00:23:20.340 unpresentable parts. You have all these different aspects of the body and God's solution. That's

00:23:25.760 actually a feature, not a problem. God loves doing that. And so he actually wants for the hand to be

00:23:32.240 a hand really well and the mouth to be a mouth really well, this little illustration here that

00:23:37.880 Paul deploys actually explains so much of God's world if we will live at peace with it and say,

00:23:44.520 oh, it's actually good for there to be distinctness in everything from sexed distinctions of male and

00:23:50.700 female to various peoples and nations and races, which when we say race, by the way, we're just

00:23:56.480 referring to the ancient concept, not a Darwinian concept, but an ancient concept of a people

00:24:01.860 descended in the moderate to distant past from one family line. So you could speak, and you could

00:24:07.920 speak rightly about the race of men who descended from Adam, which is all of humanity. But you can

00:24:13.640 also speak rightly about a race of men, for example, descended from Shem or from Japheth

00:24:19.620 after the flood. Or you could speak of a race of men who are descended less distantly in some

00:24:25.940 European people group, the Frankish people. So you could refer to, so that's what we mean when

00:24:31.700 we're talking about race. It's not a, we're not using a Darwinian concept. We're actually deploying

00:24:36.700 this very old concept. It entered the English language in the 1500s, which was 300 years

00:24:41.380 before Darwin. I think Darwin wrote his book in 1859 and even predates that by hundreds and

00:24:47.360 thousands of years. The concepts just, I wanted to say that because people often are, they debate

00:24:52.740 about race. And a lot of the time it's because they don't, they're not even using the words the

00:24:56.700 same way, or they're importing an idea that we're not promoting. So even within that though, you see

00:25:02.220 yet another example, another repeating pattern, fractal of God's love for creating variations

00:25:09.320 on a theme, but they're normed to some standard in the center where all of these peoples, these

00:25:17.240 races and nations and peoples they are human they they are image bearers of god they are they have

00:25:24.520 these characteristics and norms they are held to moral standards they are body and soul they have

00:25:30.140 all of these but they're not identical all the way up and all the way down because god loves

00:25:35.740 variations on theme it seems like if you're going to be in a position of kind of doing the work that

00:25:41.980 we're doing if you go back to season one of king's hall we were basically examining the norms in the

00:25:47.000 church. Yeah. Largely in saying, Hey, why do we do this this way? Yeah. Why, why are we

00:25:51.860 revivalistic? Why are we dispensational? I'm in talking about the broad church. Um, so as you're

00:25:58.100 thinking through norms, where we are today as a society, where we've been in the past, uh, where

00:26:04.160 Christian civilization has been, I just want you to talk about kind of the muscle. You have to

00:26:09.000 develop sort of a muscle of rightly questioning, like, why do we do that? I know that I had to do

00:26:16.420 this with complementarianism yeah uh which seemed like a really biblical position at the time

00:26:21.760 but guys like zach garris you start reading his book and you say wait a minute maybe even some of

00:26:26.780 the presuppositions and complementarianism yeah are really more like very modern post 1960 yeah

00:26:33.940 and not really how the ancients thought about men and women yeah um so but but it doesn't matter

00:26:39.160 what the issue is race sex um you know there's a whole range of stuff in the world god made but

00:26:45.840 this muscle is necessary it seems yeah to be able to question it and say hey wait a minute

00:26:51.200 i shouldn't just accept that as the given reality you know like i'll use one more and then you can

00:26:57.520 answer but you think of something like fast food and grocery stores yeah we've just grown up in

00:27:02.800 our world thinking like especially our kids yeah like that's just how it is yep um whereas before

00:27:08.600 you know 1960 like you would have gone to a farmer's market or you would have bought things

00:27:13.420 from a local place yeah mom and pop supermarkets were even kind of a newer entity they were super

00:27:19.240 markets yes the markets were an old idea and a lot of us can actually even remember i remember

00:27:24.900 the first walmarts where they were kind of an extension of um sort of like a mom and pop

00:27:32.400 hardware store plus sporting goods um some parts of the country in fact colorado has one of these

00:27:38.360 in um gunnison where you go there and it's it's like one of the original walmarts they don't have

00:27:43.880 food really no they don't have it's it's not anything like the walmart now it's just like

00:27:48.340 some sporting good items very limited selection maybe they have some cups but it's more like the

00:27:53.640 old hardware store oh i didn't even know that was a thing but now we like take it for granted that

00:27:58.400 it's normal you know it's normal yeah so anyway go back to this this muscle this impulse of having

00:28:03.400 to question things ask why yeah and not like as a revolutionary but as somebody who's actually

00:28:10.260 trying to reform yeah this is very important because this is actually the mechanism that

00:28:15.360 rightly applied consistently over time creates a normed normal people like a people who are

00:28:21.160 you walk in you're like oh this is a fresh breath of fresh air these are people being people the

00:28:25.280 way god designed people to be people yeah it's like it there's no hidden like cd something's

00:28:30.900 off. Something's kind of like Stepford about this or artificial or fake. And the way you get there

00:28:36.300 is by a lot of things, but one of them is that, why do we do it this way? Is this actually normal?

00:28:45.040 Like, I know it's normal culturally, but this, is this normal in terms of God's creation? And you

00:28:50.520 could take that and apply it to all these different constituent parts of human life and society.

00:28:54.960 And eventually you'll chip away and you will over time conform your life as a, maybe an individual

00:29:00.820 and then a family, and then your extended family, and then maybe a church community and friend

00:29:05.940 groups, slowly normal becomes infectious because we are mimetic people. We imitate, we're imitative.

00:29:13.600 And so you see something and it's attractive. You go, I want to be like that. And then you

00:29:17.100 conform within the boundaries of your personality and wiring to that thing. So you might look at

00:29:21.640 like, okay, marriage, is it normal in marriage for the husband to be henpecked by his wife

00:29:29.080 who is constantly nagging him and disappointed in him

00:29:31.960 and him just doing everything he can to please her

00:29:34.680 and basically walking on eggshells.

00:29:36.600 And, you know, sex is rare and they might have 1.2 kids

00:29:40.360 and then like birth control and, you know,

00:29:43.120 everybody's working and the kids go to daycare

00:29:45.020 and everything I just described as normal

00:29:46.940 in terms of the average of culture.

00:29:49.180 But if you ask the question,

00:29:50.680 is that more to the norms that God created?

00:29:54.460 Well, to some degree, like one man and one woman

00:29:56.360 in a marriage, sure.

00:29:57.860 Living together, sure.

00:29:59.080 But pretty soon you start poking and you say, oh, there's actually a deeper norm here for the man

00:30:04.680 as the head of his wife. And there's actually a deeper norm here for the wife submitting to the

00:30:09.160 husband and respect, seeing that she respects him. And all of a sudden reviling wife is out

00:30:13.500 and all of a sudden passive husband is out. And you just start going down that track

00:30:18.680 and pretty soon you're getting more and more aligned where your external life

00:30:24.100 is harmonious with the internal nature of yourself

00:30:29.260 as God created you

00:30:30.300 and the institution that you're interacting with.

00:30:33.820 You're now working with the grain of marriage

00:30:36.340 as God designed it, not against it.

00:30:39.120 It's like if all of a sudden in a car,

00:30:41.620 you discovered that there was more than second gear

00:30:44.060 and you were like, why was it so hard to start on a hill?

00:30:47.200 Well, because I only knew about second gear.

00:30:48.940 Why was it hard to go above 30?

00:30:50.280 Like my engine's screaming and it's smoking.

00:30:51.940 well because there was something other than second gear the car wasn't designed to go

00:30:55.600 only in second gear it's like that experience and then you go you want to tell people about it and

00:31:01.480 you want to be like guys look it's way there's a better way so so that's just one little example

00:31:06.220 where that instinct can be fleshed out and you drive deeper into some thing that god made and

00:31:13.460 start asking why is this so miserable the way i'm doing it and is that how god really designed it

00:31:20.800 And the answer is no, he didn't design it to be miserable.

00:31:22.940 He designed it to be joyful and restful and all these things.

00:31:25.900 And you do have to be careful in this process

00:31:28.400 that you don't become a person who never settles,

00:31:32.060 who never settles into anything,

00:31:33.780 who's always trying to throw everything out

00:31:36.680 and start from scratch and restart.

00:31:38.420 Like you don't want to be a revolutionary in these things,

00:31:41.180 but the instinct is good and it will lead you

00:31:44.200 if it's exercised rightly back to just good, normal,

00:31:49.520 creationally consistent activity that is in accord with your nature and over time that's what makes

00:31:55.960 a community where people walk in and they say huh these are normal people yeah i even think about a

00:32:02.020 small change like in our community where we have now family worship is just a part of normal life

00:32:09.600 yeah um but i grew up and maybe you did too but i grew up with youth group the thought of a father

00:32:16.160 leading in family worship was like this is so weird yeah very awkward i didn't even know the

00:32:22.240 practice existed until much later in my christian christian walk or the idea of like singing the

00:32:28.420 doxology or the gloria patry at dinner or psalm 134 like those things were just foreign so they

00:32:33.500 were it took some adjusting yeah but then you look at generationally like for our kids

00:32:38.480 um you know i got kids starting you know one of my sons starting his own family and i was like okay

00:32:44.560 so family worship and he explains it to me and he's like here's what we're doing we're also

00:32:49.500 going to start doing this and this and this and i'm sitting here and i'm like this is just normal

00:32:53.220 to them now the things that we had to work so hard to recover i i told somebody the other day

00:33:00.260 i feel like fatherhood in our culture now is like walking through the rubble trying to find

00:33:08.200 old building materials yep and rebuild a world that you never experienced right and you know

00:33:14.240 you're the plane going down the runway and we're trying to build it as we go but there is a bright

00:33:18.640 spot for the next generation yeah that these norms will change yes same thing i was thinking with

00:33:23.920 your kids in church is there's this you know there's this big family or larger especially

00:33:29.720 compared to today and your wife takes a baby out and the all the all the littles are like taking

00:33:36.680 care of each other like your oldest son is like you know he's norming them he's norming them stop

00:33:42.240 it, sigh roll. Daphne, you were like, yeah, Winnie's looking around and trying to smile at

00:33:49.600 people because she's just the sweetest little creature. She loves people. She's so affectionate,

00:33:54.420 but like, does she love paying attention? I also love the way that norming works across

00:33:59.440 generations is funny to me. We had some, it was a couple of weeks ago, we had some visiting people.

00:34:04.900 So, and it looked like grandpa was holding a granddaughter and Psalm 134 is going and

00:34:10.460 she raises her hands and he doesn't so she reaches across and she grabs his hand and starts raising

00:34:17.140 it this is the part where you raise your hand grandpa like hey man hey we all raise our hands

00:34:21.660 right now there's a norm yeah because we're singing lift up your hands in the sanctuary

00:34:27.040 and so we should do that it reminds me of the song i always thought it was funny growing up

00:34:32.140 in the megachurch world we would sing this song i will dance i will sing to be mad for my king

00:34:37.320 nothing lord is hindering this passion in my soul nobody clipped that out and the thing was though

00:34:43.500 nobody was dancing and fewer singing and it didn't it actually looked like a lot was hindering the

00:34:49.660 passion in our soul like as we sang it yeah so that versus like yeah in our church we raise our

00:34:55.300 hands because we're singing like we lift up your hands in the sanctuary lift up your hands in the

00:34:58.820 sanctuary so grandpa come on what are you doing yeah she's norming grandpa yeah and it works

00:35:04.020 across like i said it works across generations which is really cool one of the questions i want

00:35:08.180 to ask you is so how do you and how do we pastorally avoid the rough edges of weirdness

00:35:15.400 so i have this theory that question eric anytime take first wave homeschooling for example

00:35:21.640 anytime that you have a very countercultural movement it will attract weirdos um and early

00:35:28.640 on i think you saw this kind of in like the dugger movement i'm not saying they're all weirdos

00:35:32.020 but there were a lot of people adjacent to them sure who were like it was very countercultural

00:35:37.260 but then it became like the norm was like not just have a big family but any not having a big

00:35:44.340 family at any point they're quiver full like you're sinning um it was a denim jumper and

00:35:49.340 white sneakers for the ladies it became a certain thing and inevitably over time it became where you

00:35:57.100 had to say like okay we're not these things though yeah we're not we're going to restrain

00:36:01.880 it at some point from going too far because people inevitably do that and then on the other

00:36:07.660 hand you just get full-blown autists yeah so what do we do internally to put a check on that to make

00:36:13.800 sure that we're not running off in a direction that isn't actually the target we're trying to

00:36:18.500 hit what a good question eric now some of this you have to as a leader because i'm thinking i'm

00:36:24.980 talking as a church leader now, like putting on my hat as a, the, one of the, the chieftains of

00:36:29.780 a Christian borough here in Ogden, actually setting some of the norms, what they are and

00:36:34.440 what they aren't. You just have to recognize that anytime you are doing something that is

00:36:39.960 a radical departure from the norms of average society, the people that are going to be early

00:36:47.280 adopters of that are often going to be weird. Definitionally. It's like they have an impulse

00:36:52.140 the spirit to be like oh this is way counter-cultural i want to go do that they're the

00:36:55.700 people that are already like i'm happy not being a part of the norm like i'm because those are the

00:37:00.760 people who are already closest to some significant departure so there's a wiring thing i'm actually

00:37:05.180 not knocking that at all you need those you need them yeah and those are some of those people they

00:37:09.760 have the virtue of courage they're not as they're not fear of that full of the fear of man they will

00:37:16.040 literally to your face be like i think you're stupid and i'm not going to do that or like 1.00

00:37:19.640 this is the guy that like he walks around the world and he goes why are all these women hoes 0.97

00:37:24.980 like why are they all dressed like this this is this is ridiculous like you know that kid 1.00

00:37:31.380 he's in all the memes just like dark curly hair and he was he'd be like can you even read like he

00:37:37.860 he was talking to some woman and he was like you are a degenerate sexual degenerate you you can't

00:37:43.980 you probably can't even read name five books. And then she's like, Harry Potter. And he's like,

00:37:50.180 that's a move, you know? And, uh, or no, she said game of Thrones. He's like, that's the name of a

00:37:55.380 TV series. What is the title of the books? You know, she can't even do that. That's a kid that

00:38:00.480 did not fear man. Okay. So there's a virtue there. Um, but you could see how quickly that could lead

00:38:07.400 to you're actually ungovernable you have like you get entrenched in weirdness and you uh you end up

00:38:15.600 being a hyper skeptic of all norms kind of like when renee descartes philosophically set out to

00:38:21.940 like try to more his understanding to something this radical skepticism or maybe it's hume i think

00:38:27.040 it was descartes and he said um the only thing i could i can prove is that i think therefore i am

00:38:31.560 yeah that's descartes you know so i think therefore i can know that my mind exists i can't even prove

00:38:35.920 that yours did it might be an illusion by some demon who invented reality 10 seconds ago but i

00:38:41.140 think therefore i am like you can end up with such a radical skepticism of anything that you end up

00:38:48.920 isolating yourself from all people you have to be aware of that tendency and early adopter type

00:38:54.540 so maybe one of them one of the things that i think we work on a lot is the way that we respond

00:39:00.220 to authority yeah so i i tend to be whoever the curly haired kid if you can imagine what i tend

00:39:07.940 to be a little bit that eric con but at the ronald mcdonald one of the i know drugs i know

00:39:13.780 i know at the ronald mcdonald uh one of the things though that i i knew about myself was that

00:39:20.540 uh-huh and so even in coming to ogden it was like no i mean i've read the bible i need to be a man

00:39:25.960 under authority as well yeah and i think one of the things that we try to cultivate in our people

00:39:31.700 is yeah we're glad that you're with us we're glad that you're willing to question some things

00:39:38.000 but we're also exercising the muscle among our people of church discipline yeah submitting to

00:39:44.660 the authority i want to be ungovernable to like a global elite a global cabal of certain people

00:39:52.100 the usual suspects the usury suspects and that was good somehow we have made it about the jews

00:40:02.140 every time confirming every stereotype of the king's hall hey welcome hey people hate watching

00:40:07.660 this welcome to the show we're glad you're here we're glad you're here yeah i don't even know what

00:40:12.120 i was saying you have to be uh so authority structure is important you want to be ungovernable

00:40:17.540 to a certain type of tyrant you want to be ungovernable to the school marm who is telling

00:40:22.980 you to wear a mask even though you know it is ridiculous stupid right but you don't want to be

00:40:28.400 ungovernable to godly authority and so i think you know this can be just in little things but

00:40:34.620 we we've had guys come into the church who are kind of on the spectrum with us on some of these

00:40:38.440 issues and it's been a really good thing to say to them hey you have this kind of this quirky issue

00:40:44.780 yeah we don't believe that here you're allowed to hold it you may not proselytize and then we

00:40:50.080 actually enforce it and then we enforce it and it's been actually a beautiful thing to see that

00:40:53.840 a lot of those guys are like oh yeah great that's cool because because we're not tyrannizing their

00:40:58.960 conscience in in the sense it's like you have to believe every single thing all the way down on

00:41:04.040 every single issue that we do that's cultic like that's genuinely that's not how god orders his

00:41:08.860 spiritual kingdom. But there is an authority to say, however, that is actually not a norm of our

00:41:15.640 community that we're norming people to. So we're not making everybody clones of that. Yeah. You

00:41:20.280 can believe that other people might too in the congregation. And maybe there's some personality

00:41:23.860 that develops and friendships and things, but like, that's not an essential non-negotiable

00:41:28.380 thing here. And you can't make it that for everybody else. So there's a leadership function

00:41:32.600 there that leaders just have to constantly be doing this maintenance. This is true of fathers.

00:41:38.040 it's true of men in general it's true pastors especially it's true of leaders in a business

00:41:42.520 it's true everywhere there's leadership you have to constantly be naming the norms this is what

00:41:48.420 they are and actually this is just as importantly what they are not you can make a distinction

00:41:53.580 between what you believe on an issue but that's not a norm of our community meaning it's not

00:42:00.940 something that you are free to enforce on others yeah there's freedom of conscience and people hear

00:42:07.040 that and they're like, well, you guys are like the public schools of sin people. So this is kind

00:42:11.100 of rich from you talking about not tyrannizing the conscience. I actually don't believe that's

00:42:14.500 a tyranny of the conscience. I believe it's a good and necessary consequence of scripture.

00:42:17.740 It is a norm of our community and it does bear good fruit. And so to me, I'm like, argue,

00:42:22.560 you can argue with me, but you'll have to argue with the fruit too on that issue. But there are

00:42:27.260 many, many issues, far more things that are not norms that we think could be good and you could

00:42:32.580 hold them than are enforceable. It's actually not a long list at the end of the day. When you start

00:42:37.920 to look through it, we can communicate almost all of it in an eight week membership class.

00:42:42.160 Yeah. So discipline, uh, church discipline, dealing with authority, that one's there.

00:42:48.100 Maybe to, to that point, this gets a little bit at it is working on the proportionality

00:42:53.680 for people. And what I mean is early in like the reconstruction movement. So like in the eighties,

00:42:59.860 you had guys who were like they were talking about patriarchy and the american founding of

00:43:03.980 the country and christian education but if you they would have kind of pet issues i think

00:43:10.540 where it was like the biggest thing for them was i don't know cloud seeding or you know whatever and

00:43:16.740 like care about those things by all means yeah like pretty much they've proven that's true and

00:43:21.280 it was happening so but when you when you when you got closer and when you we put the microscope

00:43:27.120 focused it a little bit more on those people's lives dad was a drunk and nobody in the church

00:43:32.280 corrected it ah you know those sorts of issues and so we i find have to say to people i guess

00:43:39.300 fairly frequently like hey really cool you're listening to a range of podcasts and you're

00:43:44.380 politically active and you're thinking about you know the replacement of americans in our country

00:43:48.820 with foreigners who worship molek or muslims or whatever same difference but you're actually

00:43:55.380 really rude to your wife? Hey man, I've noticed that you don't discipline your kids. So like,

00:44:01.720 those are good things, but if you want, if you love your kids and don't hate them, you got to

00:44:05.960 discipline them. So don't you feel like part of it is that, that keeping things in proportion for

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00:47:25.460 and start building something that lasts um people would be surprised i think if they just know us by

00:47:33.160 reputation or online or something to find that the vast majority of sermons are not politically,

00:47:39.160 they're not super political. We don't talk about X. They're often, they have very little to do with

00:47:43.840 like controversies on here and there. I'll address something I think needs to be addressed

00:47:46.880 pastorally. But for the most part, the number one application that you'll hear from my mouth

00:47:51.240 from the pulpit is beloved, love one another. You must love one another. And actually not just

00:47:56.900 generally, but here's what that means. Here's what it means to love your children, love your wife,

00:48:00.380 love your husband, love your friends, love your country, love your brothers and sisters in this

00:48:05.420 church. Because this is one of the mega themes of scripture. In fact, according to Christ,

00:48:12.900 it is the chief marker of Christians, period, is that they love one another, your love for one

00:48:18.860 another. So over and over and over, the norm of norms is love. It is that we love God with all

00:48:26.260 our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and we love one another. So here's what that means about having

00:48:30.860 awkward conversations when you have a problem with somebody instead of gossiping about them.

00:48:35.340 Here's what it means when you notice something in a friend's life that is out of order and you love

00:48:41.200 them. So you want to help them. Here's what it looks like to do Galatians 6.1, that brothers,

00:48:46.200 if anyone's caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of

00:48:50.940 gentleness. So the thing that is enlivening all of the norming is love or it's worthless. This is

00:48:58.840 Paul's point in 1 Corinthians 13. You could speak with all prophetic power. You could have all

00:49:03.260 knowledge, meaning specifically the gift of knowledge where God gives you supernatural

00:49:07.860 knowledge into a thing. You could have all power to heal and miracles, et cetera. And Paul says,

00:49:14.000 you can have all of that. And if you don't actually love one another, it's worthless.

00:49:18.100 it is worth nothing. So in our community, the number one thing that I consider to be succeeding

00:49:26.740 or not is, are we growing in our love for one another? Are the homes of Refuge Church becoming

00:49:33.760 more suffused with and marked by a real courageous, sturdy, sin correcting, but love? Is it being

00:49:43.100 suffused with love is love coming out of our fingertips in our relationship to one another

00:49:48.180 and to our God. And the, the, that more than anything is what norms us to God's normal.

00:49:55.600 I think this is what would actually throw a lot of people off is if you follow like

00:50:00.340 the Denny Burks of the world, you know, like the, the kind of mainline-y biblical counseling

00:50:06.700 adjacent type people, they would see our political content on X and they would think,

00:50:11.600 wow they must be psychopathically weird and here would be my argument and so for all the like

00:50:18.000 just kind of like normal you know young restless and reformed kind of adjacent pastors who maybe

00:50:25.080 went a little further and you think we're really weird here would be my it's kind of a challenge

00:50:30.520 i think we do the biblical counseling better than you guys do i have i would stand by it i think that

00:50:37.280 when you get closer to our church, you'll see, wow, they're practicing Matthew 18.

00:50:42.540 They have really fruitful families. They're having hard conversations with each other.

00:50:47.880 They're actually correcting the sin that you guys are so afraid we're not correcting.

00:50:52.060 And here's one of the examples I think of winning. The number of people from out of town who have

00:50:58.320 sat, and I'm sure in your living room, I know they have in mine, and we have a Sunday dinner

00:51:03.560 and we hang out with families and they're leaving and they say wow you guys are just so normal it

00:51:09.440 happens dozens of times a year like i thought based on twitter yeah i thought you were gonna be

00:51:14.880 you know andrew tate shock jock and a lot of and you're like a normal caring kind compassionate

00:51:20.580 truth speaking yes but like a normal pastor a lot of the time what they mean by that like oh i thought

00:51:26.600 from twitter isn't actually even what we say on twitter it's what people have said of us on twitter

00:51:30.900 That's correct. Or what the reputation is. But it's all like the goal is that it would be suffused by love and love properly defined, not squishy relativistic love, but real biblically defined Christian love for one another, where you do this really inconvenient thing that a lot of the problems in our world are basically the product of people.

00:51:50.860 they have no love for one another. They love themselves. They're lovers of self and not

00:51:56.540 lovers of God. And so they don't give a rip. They only care about themselves. They're not

00:52:00.160 going to inconvenience themselves to try to love and help somebody else, even like with something

00:52:04.800 correction, or I have a problem with you. So I'm going to do the hard thing of talking

00:52:08.580 to you. And this is why in our community, and we're not boasting, praise be to God for this,

00:52:15.240 because a lot of this, like we feel our way there. We're first generation, like you said,

00:52:18.940 wandering around the rubble, picking up pieces and going, well, this might fit here, this might

00:52:22.840 fit here. And we've discovered these things through a lot of pain and difficulty in trial.

00:52:28.560 But in our community, an example of something that would absolutely like, I think, explode some

00:52:34.600 people's heads is that let's take one of the most controversial subjects of our day, race.

00:52:40.080 We have this whole conversation roiling nationally and really around the world right now

00:52:44.100 about race and ethnicity and citizenship and the politics of race, because we've had this

00:52:51.000 DEI cult. We've had replacement foreign immigration. We've had all of this like weaponized

00:52:57.180 race issue stuff going on. And now there's this huge debate where, again, they've been smashing

00:53:02.720 up the pieces and trying to build utopia, but it never works. It always brings more slavery,

00:53:06.880 not more joy. So people ultimately rebel against it. And then they're like, what is true though?

00:53:11.020 and they're unmoored and they want to know what is race does it matter what is nationality in our

00:53:15.640 church you could find routinely men of different races having a conversation very frankly about

00:53:23.980 these things they're like in ways that would make the internet police the eli mcgowan's of the

00:53:29.640 world like heads explode and then they love each other and it's a productive and helpful conversation

00:53:36.540 and then they end it and go okay yeah i think that's that's that sounds reasonable and biblical

00:53:40.760 and like accords with the world that I see.

00:53:42.780 Cool, handshake, let's go.

00:53:45.640 That happens all the time.

00:53:46.960 And it's perfectly normal.

00:53:48.020 And the thing is, it's because there is Christian love

00:53:51.780 that is under our feet.

00:53:54.260 That's the only thing that works is Christian love.

00:53:56.420 There is no other animating force underneath it all

00:53:58.940 that can hold it together.

00:53:59.960 It's the love of Christ filling the hearts of men,

00:54:03.500 coming out of their fingertips in terms of their social life

00:54:06.100 and their life together, or it's nothing.

00:54:08.640 Yeah.

00:54:08.960 That is Paul.

00:54:09.660 so a central theme of our church is is is love that is what creates the norm it is christian

00:54:17.320 love applied to all these different things but it's christian love yeah that's good uh one

00:54:22.020 question i have this sort of comes out of the keller camp in the extreme form of like winsomeness

00:54:27.860 yeah uh but even if you read i just happen to be rereading it but aaron wren's book

00:54:32.480 life in the negative world there is also sort of maybe you would say it could get problematic i

00:54:38.860 want to get your thoughts where it's it's like they're constantly thinking about what the editor

00:54:45.640 at the new york times views them as and so they're saying to themselves well let's not go off the

00:54:52.300 deep end on like the christian education thing like just promote it is good but like don't talk

00:54:57.780 about it like you you guys do with public school because that's actually really offensive yeah and

00:55:03.480 they would be really offended by that now to his credit aaron has said like i don't believe in the

00:55:08.160 winsomeness stuff right it's bad people need to be offended whatever but i always get the sense

00:55:13.840 with people who interact a lot with elites you know aaron lives among leftists there seems to

00:55:21.200 be this gaze there seems to be this thing tim keller did it at the end of his life where he was

00:55:26.260 like the main thing we need to do is distance ourselves from fundamentalists those wackoids

00:55:32.460 who thought that covid was a sham what a bunch of weirdos they voted for trump so there's a

00:55:38.340 spectrum here and and just so just to be clear i am not saying that like wren or anybody else

00:55:44.140 believes in winsomeness they've argued against it to be clear but i still think there's this area of

00:55:50.200 like yeah but maybe the long-term goal should be like that the new york times would think i was

00:55:56.480 okay yeah this fake normal you know what i mean oh yeah so how do you not get steered by the leftist

00:56:03.880 gaze when you're talking about things like norms yeah because one of their favorite strategies is

00:56:08.840 to say look how weird these people are they're not normal and they're actually pointing at things

00:56:13.760 where they're the freaks not us they're actually the weirdos dying their hair purple and pooping

00:56:17.900 in litter boxes and we're the people who are like what about maybe marriage between a man and a

00:56:22.000 woman and they have children and they're faithful to one another their whole life and there's no

00:56:24.600 porn and also like uh communities love one another and they have christian education systems they

00:56:29.640 don't say i don't know you're the descendant of a shrimp and like all these other things that are

00:56:34.120 completely actually normal and they're like oh you you're so weird and unsophisticated you know

00:56:39.680 and so there's a temptation for a lot of communities especially over time where you

00:56:45.340 start very conservative and you start very you're willing to be disliked you're willing to be on the

00:56:52.040 outside in order to build a truly normal place according to God's norms. And you're willing to

00:56:57.980 be disliked. And then you get bigger. And then there's influence. And then you start to, you do

00:57:03.740 see some of the weirder corners of maybe movements or things that are kind of rhyme with you. And you

00:57:09.240 can easily start doing this thing that I think is really dumb. And it is to be steered by the

00:57:14.380 leftist gaze where they are, you know it when you start saying things like, well, we're not like

00:57:20.000 those guys like our women they wear pants don't worry or like hey um we're not like those and then

00:57:26.500 you start basically trying to signal to the left we're normal people we're ordinary we believe in

00:57:34.320 higher education for women you're not weird and scary we send our our women to college like work

00:57:38.740 outside the home oh all of our wives have jobs it's totally like what do you and actually before

00:57:43.880 long you've completely lost your immune system you've lost the norms you've lost what made it

00:57:48.320 distinct and you have been recolonized by the world. And you have to understand that the

00:57:53.900 Gramsian Marxist strategy puts relentless pressure to capture any successful counter institution.

00:57:59.880 Anytime you, you get any kind of institutional momentum where you do something successful as a

00:58:04.620 community, you must know that you will have 15 different vectors of the world and Satan trying

00:58:10.500 to reconquer it, take the mechanisms of instant of enculturation, seize them, and then use them

00:58:16.720 against your kids and your grandkids and your great grandkids. And they're really, really good

00:58:21.320 at it. So you have to maintain a kind of obnoxious right wing emphasis and obnoxious, like we're

00:58:31.140 going to be normal, but, but we are going to be freaks to, to you on some, I almost think it's

00:58:35.580 like being militantly normal. Exactly. Like there cannot be, I just don't think that you're going

00:58:41.800 to win with the sort of like, I'm going to show you 10% of my cards type mindset. And I hope not

00:58:51.880 because that's not what we've done here at all. Well, and yeah, just to, I think, encourage guys

00:58:58.100 that if you put more of your cards on the table, fly more of your flags out front. Yeah. The funny

00:59:04.020 thing is you do have pushback in the beginning. Yeah. But now even for us, it's like people kind

00:59:09.320 to have a feeling of where we stand our people definitely know where we stand do the hard work

00:59:14.540 up front and so yeah even on things that would like the stuff that we say that you're you're

00:59:20.880 sitting in your church going i would get fired yeah and actually some of you have i'm sorry

00:59:25.120 sorry about that yeah but we've also worked over time a lot of guys have i think to build a

00:59:31.860 community where it's like they're used to that yeah i know guys pastors who are in churches and

00:59:36.880 they believe everything we believe and they're like i secretly believe everything you believe

00:59:39.660 but i know if i if i start norming the church to any of these standards i'm going to lose 80

00:59:43.920 of the people overnight and i get it i think there's tactics and there's strategies yeah

00:59:49.040 to be to be clear and fair however they act like we didn't have that same thing happen

00:59:55.560 you think we didn't lose 80 of the people oh more than that over a hundred percent because

01:00:00.660 more people have left the church than even though god's blessed and we're doing well and it's well

01:00:05.840 we've lost tons of people but the thing that i would try to persuade the pastor or any leader

01:00:10.380 in an organization of is to do the hard work up front fly your flags out front don't let it be

01:00:15.340 a mystery that you try to slowly like win the person secretly through nefarious influence to

01:00:20.700 your like secret principle if it's a secret principle it's probably not a real principle

01:00:25.920 i actually probably don't live at peace with it i actually think this is part of the negative world

01:00:29.920 where look you can just be you can do all those things you can keep you know 99 of your cards

01:00:37.120 close to the vest people will see the one card today and they will still cancel you and they

01:00:41.540 will not distinguish between you like the antifa guys that were protesting our church they would

01:00:47.320 not make any kind of rational distinction between us we're way more right-wing than any other kind

01:00:52.460 of conservative church in the state of utah by far by a factor of probably 872 okay but but any

01:00:59.240 church in the state of utah that's like no i think that gay marriage doesn't contribute to human

01:01:04.360 flourishing antifa would protest you too they hate you too they won't even like in fact you'll be in

01:01:09.940 the same car to the gulag as us they're not going to make a distinction between us and let because

01:01:15.260 here's the thing like we should be doing they are playing for keeps they're playing for 100 victory

01:01:20.380 total war they will accept nothing other than complete victory so that means they can't

01:01:26.020 distinguish between gradations of their enemy. They pretty much have to treat all their enemies

01:01:30.220 as enemies. So for this whole strategy of like, I'm going to kind of nuance my way until eventually

01:01:37.860 maybe people like kind of guess that my principle is really this really radical thing. And then

01:01:42.780 slowly there'll be one to it. I would rather say it all up front and then be clear about what is

01:01:47.940 the norm and what is like something that you're not allowed to enforce in a community and just

01:01:52.020 be totally clear up front. Let the front door be narrow and you're in or you're out. And we're,

01:01:57.140 we're not going to beg you. We're not going to promise to change our whole thing for you to win

01:02:01.560 you to it because we don't need you. We have the Lord God. We don't need you. Come or don't come.

01:02:06.260 I don't care. I love you. I want good for you. I think it'd be good for you to accept these norms

01:02:10.120 and join, but do or don't. I'm not trying to strong arm you. If you want to go to a Tim Keller

01:02:14.380 church, be my guest, go to a Tim Keller church. See how it turns out for your grandkids. Make sure

01:02:19.720 that you uh have zzer write me a letter um at the end of your life and they can tell me how it's

01:02:25.660 going with their with their three cat grandchildren but i mean like that is that's you man do you

01:02:30.140 that is the weird thing i mean i've known families who came from keller's church

01:02:34.080 and yeah i mean i you know one of them is like you have like five kids every single one of them

01:02:41.360 was like deep into the art the art scene they're all gay now you've got some people who've had top

01:02:48.560 surgery as you're saying you see the trajectory where did that get people and you say hey we don't

01:02:55.400 want to do that yeah so i think this is actually funny it was a talk years ago i think at grace

01:03:00.960 agenda but nate wilson gave it and he was talking about raising your sons like john the baptist

01:03:06.180 and he was like do you think that a kid like the way he grew up where it's like he's under the

01:03:12.440 nazirite vow he wears you know camel fur and like eats insects do you think that kid was like i hope

01:03:20.380 they like me i hope they like me i hope the kids at school are like oh i really like your whatever

01:03:27.600 brand of whatever i like how you smell it's like and now i think just saying like look hostile

01:03:35.900 territory um but we have to live a certain way i i also think one of the things that insulates you

01:03:41.600 is if you can find a community

01:03:43.320 where you're normed the same way.

01:03:46.080 We actually, this happens when we travel.

01:03:48.200 We go to the airport and it's usually Ben.

01:03:51.100 It's always Ben.

01:03:52.060 It's always Ben.

01:03:52.740 It's every time it's Ben.

01:03:53.640 But I realized once we go out in public,

01:03:56.920 wow, we are so abnormal compared to the culture at large.

01:04:01.160 We'll be walking through,

01:04:01.980 Ben and I were traveling for Haunted Cosmos once

01:04:03.680 and we're walking down in the Salt Lake City airport.

01:04:07.620 There's this underground tunnel

01:04:08.800 that takes you from concourse a to concourse b and the the result of a long tunnel is that anything

01:04:17.060 you say goes all the way up and down and we're walking out it's like 6 15 in the morning and

01:04:23.360 there are all these women just young women in yoga pants and booty shorts and booty scrunchy

01:04:28.860 butt crack pants and all the different satanic inventions that they put together in mordor that

01:04:34.860 women wear now and ben goes at literally this volume a lot of hoes here this morning right

01:04:42.400 and i mean everybody in the state of utah heard him i was like i just did this ben

01:04:53.760 so true king so true like what else are you gonna do at that point but yeah you do realize that

01:05:01.060 we're a little different when you walk out the door and it feels so normal when you're in you're

01:05:04.080 like this is great everyone's kind of normal oh yeah like that that family over there she you know

01:05:07.800 wonderful lady and great and then you walk out your front door and you're like what is happening

01:05:12.160 yeah in that what is what infernal what but that is insane that's why i think if you have a strong

01:05:19.300 community i guess in a quality way the gaze that you're considering is your people yeah exactly not

01:05:26.280 the left god and godly people you you fear god and then you do the the the a good name amongst

01:05:35.100 the righteous is a worthy thing but you don't worry about the leftist gaze you don't worry

01:05:40.240 about the progressive gaze and and i include in that i don't worry about the centrist gaze i'm

01:05:43.960 not trying to get mass appeal this is actually the thing that like i don't know for me personally

01:05:49.160 if if there's a strong gag reflex to any one thing it would be sort of and we talked about

01:05:54.860 this kind of in the kevin de young episode but sort of like this smarmy evangelical desire to

01:05:59.920 be liked by elites who are godless ghouls yeah like i just don't understand it they're like well

01:06:06.220 yeah but what about my future book contract with crossway i'm like well first of all you're not

01:06:10.480 gonna make any money off that book trust trust us nobody cares no like i would rather yeah i just

01:06:18.980 i think through that whole thing and i think like what is the game here it is so disgusting to me

01:06:23.760 You're going to get invited to like a gay conference.

01:06:27.040 I would rather die.

01:06:28.560 Speaking at conferences, by the way, is not all that great anyway.

01:06:31.360 No.

01:06:31.860 Traveling sucks.

01:06:32.580 I like my family.

01:06:34.260 That's why I keep saying no when people say, will you come speak?

01:06:37.440 I'm like, no.

01:06:39.020 I like sleeping in my bed at night.

01:06:41.460 We like Ogden.

01:06:42.100 We like our people.

01:06:42.580 I like being here.

01:06:44.140 Yeah.

01:06:44.620 I say a lot.

01:06:45.280 I say enough words here.

01:06:46.320 Like just, you know, but it is so disgusting when you think about it.

01:06:50.600 And the worst thing is like, what's the quote that you sold your soul and you didn't even

01:06:53.840 get anything?

01:06:54.400 Yeah, it's Dostoevsky.

01:06:56.020 I have to look it up.

01:06:56.840 It's like the worst part is that you sold your soul and trade your people.

01:07:00.920 Yeah.

01:07:01.480 And I'll look it up.

01:07:02.340 Look it up.

01:07:02.940 And it's that when you do this for the sake of getting broad mainstream platform appeal,

01:07:08.600 it doesn't work because broad mainstream platform appeal.

01:07:11.880 I don't think it changes that much.

01:07:13.180 i think most of the world is is steered by small percentages of the farther elements of both sides

01:07:21.200 of the divide i don't think much steering is happening from the middle i think the steering

01:07:24.600 wheel is on either side and it's basically a tug of war between and those are the two sides that

01:07:29.180 actually have principles and they're trying to impose them on the world because they believe

01:07:32.640 they would be good for everybody and not just like can we all get along and like maybe the

01:07:37.300 furries can have their cat boxes and we can have our christian schools and i'm like the cat boxes

01:07:42.420 guess what they're going straight to hell and if you have one you get burned in the stake publicly

01:07:48.880 i mean well if you have a cat you can have a cat box but like anybody pooping in a cat box like

01:07:55.120 they're done yeah that's over new like new new crime i'm passing a bill it's going to be called

01:08:01.720 the cat box capital punishment bill if you put fake ears on you poop in a cat box right right

01:08:09.100 to the gulag right and the gulag is like two weeks where you have an opportunity to repent

01:08:15.160 of your sins and trust in the lord jesus christ before things happen to you it's a mercy yeah

01:08:21.260 actually speaking of crime that quote comes from crime and punishment what a transition to a say

01:08:26.320 esky uh but the quote is this your worst sin is that you have destroyed and betrayed yourself

01:08:32.080 and you have done it for nothing that is how i feel when i see people do this i'm like yeah

01:08:37.140 what did you get even like take tp usa or some some conservative thing that a lot of good people

01:08:42.700 at tp usa that they're doing good stuff and i'm not i'm not against tp usa or whatever but let's

01:08:48.320 say that if i could like soften on six or seven things that i might have a shot in 2027 getting

01:08:53.920 on the tp usa stage or i might have a shot of like the daily wire is going to be calling and going

01:08:58.820 brian what do you think about a podcast with the daily wire they're not calling

01:09:02.460 no no no hear me out hear me out i gotta denounce some people i gotta do some apology tours i gotta

01:09:08.760 kind of rehabilitate the old image maybe change my name face get plastic surgery become a

01:09:13.300 fundamentally different person and they say you do all of that you could be on the stage and and

01:09:18.880 the thing is like the thought of that being considered success is so repulsive to me that

01:09:26.020 i would rather just die i would rather if you just directly shot me and i die okay it's like

01:09:34.400 oddly specific that's how i feel about it and because i don't think it actually does anything

01:09:40.540 it certainly doesn't do anything for my people it doesn't do anything for ogden like it doesn't

01:09:43.800 do anything for the again i love these people it does a lot that's what we're aiming for so love

01:09:48.360 god and love them it does a lot for ethnostate somewhere else in the world is what it does

01:09:52.760 Once again, this episode of the King's Hall podcast is brought to you by wild speculation about the Jews.

01:10:00.100 Speculation is not the right word.

01:10:01.380 You can't laugh at yourself.

01:10:02.480 I mean, come on.

01:10:03.580 That's what it's about.

01:10:06.500 Yeah, I guess as we sort of wrap this conversation up, this element of time and tools, we're doing this work.

01:10:16.320 we're obviously pretty young uh in the lifespan from when you guys started this project to where

01:10:22.340 we are today we do talk a lot about generational work and norming and things like that they're

01:10:29.060 very difficult um and and i would even say to like check out season one and two especially season two

01:10:35.720 on fatherhood i think like one of the episodes we did was keeping your kids out of the digital

01:10:40.620 matrix. That is really pivotal. The plastic sword of Christless conservatism, stuff like that. I

01:10:48.480 think it's all adjacent. It's really important. But why is considering the generational side of

01:10:52.960 this so important? Yeah, it is important because what it forces you to do is think through all of

01:10:58.400 the infiltrating points that Satan wants to get in through. Because again, Satan plays the long

01:11:03.900 game. He is in a vastly ancient, malevolent, highly intelligent spiritual being who's been

01:11:11.160 practicing the arts of deception and death and destruction for thousands of years in human

01:11:15.640 history, influencing people, deploying his demonic hordes, et cetera. That's what you're up against.

01:11:20.580 So you have to be thinking, um, he's going to play the long game. Satan will be content

01:11:26.960 to let somebody win for a generation to some extent. If he can't beat you, then he'll go,

01:11:33.900 okay, but can I beat them in the next generation? And how will he do that? Through the minds and

01:11:38.520 hearts of people. This is why in the, in the, the, the armor of God in Ephesians, we have the,

01:11:44.660 the helmet of salvation. We have the shield of faith by which we extinguish the fiery darts of

01:11:52.700 the enemy. When you think about what that means and taking thoughts captive and making them to

01:11:57.120 obey Christ, he does this by influencing our thinking, our values, our motives, our definitions

01:12:02.000 of success. He's trying to norm us to his opposite world norms, his evil norms. So we have to think

01:12:09.000 like, where would Satan seek to do that with my children? Well, he would try to get into their

01:12:14.400 education. He would try to get into their virtue formation. He would try to get into marriages

01:12:18.300 because that's like the factory and engine of human culture in a lot of ways. Try to get into

01:12:22.400 our businesses. So we start thinking about walls and gates on all of these different parts of the

01:12:27.660 societal life in the borough, in the community. And then planning like our security team does

01:12:34.720 on Sunday against violent attacks on our church, they think, where would a violent attacker come

01:12:41.840 in and how would they do it? If I were them, how would I do it? And then they prepare in that spot

01:12:46.800 and they make sure that they're ready to face that strategy. We do the same thing ideologically

01:12:52.480 with our children. And to do that, it's specifically with the culture making, norming,

01:12:59.100 educational, enculturating mechanisms of the institutions in our culture. So that's where

01:13:04.760 you really have to think long-term is thinking about how our people made and their thoughts

01:13:10.960 formed and their values formed. That's what it means to think long-term. You have to prepare

01:13:14.840 in those spots. So for us, that's like, why do we start a school? Why is education such a big deal

01:13:20.180 to us? Why do we spend so much time? Why do we start a media company, a publishing company even?

01:13:24.940 It's just words. That's what a media company is. Norming speech. You know, if you look at

01:13:30.440 everything we do in Ogden and some of it, it's very much like in, in Coet, it's in seed form.

01:13:35.520 It's not like built up yet. And there's a lot of work to do, but it's all going to be like the

01:13:39.720 first, second, third, fourth, fifth thing we do is you're going to find it's always trying to

01:13:43.460 capture those points of culture formation,

01:13:47.860 colonize them, and then defend them,

01:13:50.800 deploy and defend them.

01:13:51.820 That's what you're going to find.

01:13:53.120 Yeah, I also think it takes a great deal of faith.

01:13:56.100 You're believing in the covenant promises.

01:13:58.380 You're thinking like Abraham.

01:14:00.260 You're a small people,

01:14:01.540 but one day your people could be large by God's blessing.

01:14:05.780 But it's funny when you break it down,

01:14:07.980 it's like, okay, so we're going to be fruitful and multiply.

01:14:10.440 We're going to worship the one true and living God

01:14:12.580 as he's you know declared and shown us how to do in scripture uh deuteronomy 6 we're going to raise

01:14:18.520 our children in the fear of the lord we're just going to take that commandment seriously and we're

01:14:22.840 going to do the best job that we can making sure they have a christian education we're going to

01:14:26.660 keep them out of a godless satanic communist school system yep so you start stacking these

01:14:32.400 things up and a lot of people could look at that and they could say yeah but what is that going to

01:14:36.040 do. And you say, well, God took a man who had a barren wife and he made them into a father of

01:14:44.200 nations. That's what it could do. For example. Yeah. And you have to believe as Abraham did,

01:14:50.600 he believed the Lord and so was justified. So it's like, you have to believe that ultimately

01:14:57.500 the Lord is building. This is something that I've come back to time and again, as we do the work in

01:15:02.120 Ogden, and you have to believe this wherever you're doing the work. If it's just you, yeah,

01:15:08.380 you are wasting your time. But ultimately the Lord is the one who's building it. The Lord is

01:15:13.460 the one who's doing this good work and he's going to bless our endeavors. And so that's our great

01:15:19.880 hope for it. So I think just encouraging faith as well. One of the things I want to ask you as we

01:15:25.420 close now um i'm excited for the conference yeah i'm excited we'll have some people back steven

01:15:32.280 wolf uh andrew isker excited to hear from them steven's got a new book coming out isker's got

01:15:38.420 a new book coming out with us very excited about those projects we've got some books coming out

01:15:43.460 oh we got a lot of books i mean if you need books we got books we've got books and we're gonna have

01:15:49.160 more books and just more books it's a flywheel we you know we started a little got got zach

01:15:53.580 garris's book and then you know we got hana cosmos book and then we got um lexi's book wisdom

01:15:59.020 on her tongue and that you know and then david edgington and then able to republish in uh boniface

01:16:03.780 option all these it's this flywheel and now we're looking going wow a lot of these books that we

01:16:08.820 wanted to exist two years ago that the the work's being put in and now it's like they're coming to

01:16:13.560 fruition i'm very excited to see them go out and be tools of norming people to god's world and his

01:16:19.300 standards in the future. What excites you about the conference most as you look forward to what's

01:16:27.020 going to happen there? Yeah. And I mean, we didn't bury the lead in that we said at the beginning,

01:16:30.500 but everything we've been discussing, these are the ideas and themes that the conference is

01:16:35.560 centered around. Not every single thing will be what we just said, but the idea is to serve this

01:16:41.960 goal. The conference is the war for normal. The website for the conference information is the

01:16:48.540 war for normal.com. I would recommend that you go there, check it out. We've got, it's really,

01:16:53.520 first of all, it's such a cool website. You scroll through, it kind of tells the story,

01:16:58.260 shows you a bunch of images. We've got our promo video up there, all of the registration details,

01:17:03.900 but I'm really excited for this conference because I've been excited for every one of our

01:17:08.340 conferences. They've been really fun and great to meet people, but we've leaned in this year to

01:17:13.540 some of the things that we love the best about the conference and even honed them. And I think

01:17:17.920 sharpened them. So a few of those things this year, the whole first day, the conference is

01:17:23.780 Thursday, Friday, Saturday, but Thursday is not at a conference center. We're not going to have

01:17:28.900 talks on Thursday. For example, Thursday is going to be a bunch of stuff that's aimed at like

01:17:34.160 meet people, have fun, make friends in the morning. There's going to be like a park hangout

01:17:39.400 with some stuff for kids to do where you can take your kids and hang out for a few hours with other

01:17:44.020 people at the conference. Um, we're going to have a golf tournament that morning. So bring your

01:17:48.440 four man scramble team, or you can sign up and we'll create four man teams as we need to, if

01:17:53.480 you're alone or there's just two of you. And, uh, we're going to have a golf scramble where there's

01:17:57.720 prizes and competition. And like, if you've ever been a PGA pro Scotty Scheffler, if you're

01:18:03.020 listening, you're automatically on my team. Eric and I are looking for a third and fourth partner

01:18:07.340 who can replace the other two people who are our good friends here in Ogden. If you're better at

01:18:13.060 golf than them yes and once again scotty sheffler i know you listen yeah friend of the show we'll

01:18:18.780 keep your identity private okay not a friend of the show i made that up yeah like and here's the

01:18:26.140 thing it's all about love and loyalty so like our friends if they're not as good at golf as you are

01:18:30.920 kicked off our team so we can win yes okay so that's going to be the morning take you through

01:18:36.060 like the early kind of noon afternoon we'll have an award ceremony for the golf thing super fun

01:18:40.840 we're going to have the new christian impressed games that thursday second half of the day

01:18:45.000 which we we you know did that last year for the first time and it was super fun learned a lot of

01:18:50.760 stuff gonna do it even better this year more events some different ways for people to be

01:18:55.540 involved um different formats and things and we'll be crowning some victors we'll have some

01:19:00.920 great sponsors business sponsors of those events so that we'll have good like really great prizes

01:19:06.380 for the winners and we're going to prove that people who listen to podcasts from ogden are

01:19:12.540 guaranteed to have double the testosterone and twice the muscle mass with half the body fat

01:19:18.260 percentage of any other people group on earth i mean we're going to clinically prove that so true

01:19:23.500 at the event the best part of the event is i don't have to prove that i can compete in it

01:19:28.040 because i have a really good excuse which is that ben and i the han and cosmos duo we will

01:19:34.140 be commentating the games which should be a lot of fun because we are both really well known for

01:19:40.400 being very into professional sports in which sense no sense in a sense that is i'm just made up now

01:19:51.720 yes oh i see so it's gonna be fun and we vowed to compete in the games well obviously i won't

01:19:57.980 be competing now. It's going to be a lot of fun. I did Tate. I'm going to be the, listen, man,

01:20:05.160 I'm going to be the commissioner. Yeah. The commissioner. Uh, you know, I need to get like

01:20:09.900 a fedora. Yeah. Like, you know, that's right. I'll give a speech. Absolutely. You do. You

01:20:15.660 should make this your whole personality starting tomorrow, starting right now, starting right now.

01:20:20.300 Yeah. So Thursday there'll be even more. That's just kind of a highlight Friday and Saturday.

01:20:24.720 then we'll be at the conference center. We'll have a great talks. We got, you know, Dr. Wolf

01:20:28.780 coming back. I'll be giving some talks, Eric, um, live Kings hall, live haunted cosmos more,

01:20:33.540 see the website. And we'll keep adding details to the itinerary over the next few weeks as that

01:20:38.560 gets finalized with different logistics and things like that. Um, so the conference is going to be

01:20:44.200 great. It's going to go instead of ending like early Saturday, it's going to go all through

01:20:47.600 Saturday. And then we, we just realized that instead of ending it for people to travel home,

01:20:52.600 most of the people stay for Sunday because we want them to. So we hold church that Sunday

01:20:57.900 in the conference venue so everybody can fit. We'll do that again. And so we encourage you,

01:21:03.520 the conference ends Saturday, but stay for church, get to meet the folks. And then we do a barbecue

01:21:07.140 in the park Sunday afternoon with kind of like the whole church and anybody who's still there

01:21:11.500 just as hospitality. I'm going to be doing a live concert and launching a brand new album

01:21:17.680 the week of the conference um a brand new album of eight original songs lord willing that i hope

01:21:24.300 don't suck they don't thank you i needed that oh they're so good we're deep in production i actually

01:21:31.680 have more details on that comment maybe next king's hall i'll fill you guys in on some ways

01:21:35.520 but you can help make make that project great what is the status of the creed cover it's coming

01:21:41.240 yeah it's actually tied into that so i've been delaying but not because i'm not going to do it

01:21:46.860 but because i want to do it we're gonna do it right yeah okay scott sap's gonna be there scott

01:21:51.140 okay we keep saying this stuff it's just like on the screen i need you to put a little disclaimer

01:21:56.940 says scott's tap is not gonna be there okay thank you how do you know okay i don't or tate whoever

01:22:01.820 whoever's editing this our father in heaven owns the cattle on a thousand you know what scott can

01:22:07.060 i call you scott will you do backup vocals for me at the concert if we get scott's tap out that

01:22:14.900 will be the best use of his time backup vocals for me hear me out scott staff can you take me

01:22:19.680 higher yes you can will you do it for free our budget is limited speaking of budget this is the

01:22:28.520 most affordable year ever wow that was yeah i'm proud of that transition so we decided to do a

01:22:36.060 family pass this year because we love families and we're normal people we have kids all that

01:22:40.020 so instead of like making complicated buy tickets for everybody different prices whatever there's a

01:22:44.400 family pass it is literally cutting the cost of tickets for most people like in half and so pray

01:22:51.340 for us because we're probably going to lose money on this conference and maybe go bankrupt so buy

01:22:57.300 books wow but it is the most affordable conference we don't do these conferences to like pat our

01:23:04.980 budget for the most part they're a lot of work and we really just try to at least get them to

01:23:10.680 the point where it's like, we didn't get upside down on the conference. So this year we're

01:23:15.940 genuinely in danger of that, but it's because we, we want to make it as easy as possible for

01:23:19.780 families to come. Um, I can't remember the exact ticket cost, but you can go to the website,

01:23:23.900 the war for normal.com and the family pass. And then you just tell us how many kids and the past

01:23:28.820 don't, don't cheat it please. But the past is for a married couple and their children who live in

01:23:33.700 their household. So pretty straightforward. Doesn't matter if they're zero to five 17,

01:23:38.200 if they live in your household um just tell there's a spot where you can tell us how many

01:23:42.500 kids so we know how many seats we have left and then um that'll get you to to the to the conference

01:23:48.780 i'm expecting i'm going to be disappointed if there's not rows of white conversion vans in

01:23:54.880 the parking lot oh 100 there better be there they had better be there or we are going to have a

01:23:59.640 serious family talk after the conference my favorite part is all listeners one of my friends

01:24:04.160 drives like 20 hours with his family to be there yeah and every time i'm like how's the drive going

01:24:09.340 and he sends me that uh chris farley on the bus from billy madison he's like great it's going

01:24:17.300 great it's going great yeah it's a great it's a great experience lots of stuff like you said

01:24:22.080 uh for the family to do while they're and we do it's a great networking yes like we want to

01:24:26.700 encourage you we have a free pastor's breakfast that's right and we have a business networking

01:24:31.620 thing. There's a bunch of stuff I'm putting on the concert, launching the album. Then there's

01:24:35.800 going to be a bunch of stuff going on with the conference that will be, I hope just lots of fun.

01:24:39.960 You get to meet people, make friendships, connect with people who are close to you

01:24:43.940 that you didn't know were close to you, which is super fun. And then it bears dividends for a long

01:24:50.440 time. And, uh, man, it's just, it's going to be, I'm super excited. I'm so excited. Yeah. I am not

01:24:58.300 even big into conferences i don't go to them generally i don't like never did um like i said

01:25:03.820 i don't love i'm not like traveling and doing conference circuits stuff but um this one is

01:25:10.080 so much fun every year we're like exhausted by the end but also man that was good and we have

01:25:16.840 music so fun during the conference from sean benet like yes the song singing sean benet comes out

01:25:22.660 he's gonna be well i'm just calling it that he's gonna be back again i don't even know if we've

01:25:26.340 confirmed no he's locked in oh he's locked in okay he's gonna be conducting helping us sing

01:25:30.160 because we have psalm singing and him singing along with the conference um man it's gonna be

01:25:36.220 so just be there the war for normal.com go there come back to this youtube video compliment the

01:25:44.080 website in a comment because it's really good that the the the web team cooked when they made

01:25:50.360 this website okay there was a lot of white monster going on they there was our web guy

01:25:55.640 drank two white monsters and became a third while doing that's right that's right josh great job

01:26:02.800 so that's awesome what else to say i mean that's kind of like that's that's it be psychotically

01:26:09.440 awkwardly normal that's my charge yeah we do appreciate exactly what we said yeah

01:26:16.180 we appreciate you guys uh we encourage you to join us for the after hours as well we do have

01:26:21.840 a patreon exclusive show you think this show is fun you have no idea what you're missing

01:26:26.200 they have no idea they have no idea join us we'll catch you guys in the next episode

01:26:32.540 well in case you didn't know we have another king's hall show called the after hours and

01:26:51.500 it's available only to our patrons we have a great time in the after hours i play hype songs

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01:27:06.940 slash the king's hall if you'd like to support the show and get some extra content

The King's Hall - February 13, 2026

Holding Frame & The War for Normal

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