The King's Hall - ＂How Dare You？＂： Why Berating Men Doesn't Work

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00:00:36.840 You know, living with you, it hasn't been easy.

00:00:40.660 People see me, but they think of you.

00:00:43.560 Now with all this going on, this is going to be worse than ever.

00:00:46.460 It don't have to be.

00:00:47.460 No, sure it does.

00:00:48.680 Why? You got a lot going on, kid.

00:00:50.320 Well, my last name?

00:00:51.640 That's the reason I got a decent job.

00:00:53.580 That's the reason why people deal with me in the first place.

00:00:55.760 Now I start to get a little ahead.

00:00:57.980 I start to get a little something for myself, and this happens.

00:01:01.880 Now I'm asking you as a favor not to go through with this, okay?

00:01:05.720 This is only going to end up bad for you, and it's going to end up bad for me.

00:01:08.660 You think I'm hurting you?

00:01:09.880 Yeah, in a way you are.

00:01:11.860 That's the last thing I ever wanted to do.

00:01:13.780 I know that's not what you want to do, but that's just the way that it is.

00:01:17.340 Don't you care what people think?

00:01:18.960 Doesn't it bother you that people are making you out to be a joke,

00:01:22.020 and that I'm going to be included in that?

00:01:23.500 Do you think that's right?

00:01:25.760 Do you?

00:01:32.740 You ain't gonna believe this.

00:01:35.380 But you used to fit right here.

00:01:38.120 I'd hold you up and say to your mother,

00:01:40.560 this kid's gonna be the best kid in the world.

00:01:43.260 This kid's gonna be somebody better than anybody ever knew.

00:01:46.700 And you grew up good and wonderful.

00:01:49.660 It was great just watching.

00:01:50.880 Every day was like a privilege.

00:01:53.020 Then the time come for you to be your own man

00:01:55.060 and take on the world and you did but somewhere along the line you changed you stopped being you

00:02:01.860 you let people stick a finger in your face and tell you you're no good

00:02:05.440 and when things got hard you started looking for something to blame like a big shadow

00:02:10.700 let me tell you something you already know the world ain't all sunshine and rainbows

00:02:17.820 it's a very mean and nasty place and i don't care how tough you are it will beat you to your knees

00:02:24.060 and keep you there permanently if you let it you me or nobody is going to hit as hard as life

00:02:29.980 but it ain't about how hard you hit it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward

00:02:36.500 how much you can take and keep moving forward that's how winning is done now if you know what

00:02:43.760 you're worth now go out and get what you're worth but you got to be willing to take the hits and

00:02:48.060 not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you

00:02:50.100 want to be because of him or her

00:02:51.860 or anybody. Cowards do 0.98

00:02:54.100 that and that ain't you. You're 0.99

00:02:56.000 better than that.

00:03:04.120 I'm always going to love you no matter what.

00:03:07.580 No matter

00:03:08.220 what happens.

00:03:09.840 You're my son. You're my blood.

00:03:12.960 You're the best thing

00:03:14.080 in my life.

00:03:14.840 but until you start believing in yourself you're gonna have a life

00:03:20.780 don't forget to visit your mother the king's hall podcasts exist to make self-ruled men

00:03:31.840 who rule well and win the world well welcome to this episode of the king's hall podcast i am your

00:03:38.460 host, Eric Kahn, joined by

00:03:40.240 host number two, the host with the most.

00:03:43.120 The most?

00:03:44.480 I don't even know.

00:03:46.120 Well, I'm Dan Burkholder. Pastor Dan Burkholder.

00:03:48.320 Thanks for joining me today. We are doing

00:03:50.440 a unique

00:03:51.340 thing. Brian, we're talking about

00:03:54.320 fathers and fathers' voices.

00:03:56.780 And Brian is actually being a father right

00:03:58.380 now, which is kind of cool.

00:04:00.740 He has welcomed 0.96

00:04:02.080 another Sauvé into

00:04:04.240 the world, him and his wife.

00:04:06.500 And so, Dan, can you believe it? He's on

00:04:08.180 paternity leave yeah yeah he uh named his son alfred kingsley i i realized that when i prayed

00:04:18.340 for them uh on sunday i prayed for him as king alfred the great i don't think you said great

00:04:25.620 i think you just said king alfred okay but yeah yes but that's what i was thinking king alfred

00:04:30.660 the great yeah what well what a base chad name who he's named after so fathers and naming very

00:04:36.740 important father's words very important uh but we do miss brian yeah most of the time most of the

00:04:43.540 time it's been a little lonely in the office yeah but he should be back next next episode so he's

00:04:49.240 coming back don't you don't you worry people uh so dan we're talking about in this episode

00:04:53.960 we just listened to this clip of sylvester stallone we're talking about how father's words

00:04:59.360 can shape and we're going to be doing a little bit of compare and contrast in the episode

00:05:04.140 with how men are often spoken to in the church.

00:05:08.400 Now, the Stallone clip we listen to really, I think,

00:05:10.780 is a good picture of fatherly exhortation, right?

00:05:14.540 It's direct.

00:05:15.760 It's to the point.

00:05:16.760 It's full of some hard truths.

00:05:18.640 But ultimately, what it conveys to Rocky's son is, I'm for you.

00:05:22.820 I love that piece at the end where he just said,

00:05:25.900 I'm always going to love you, right?

00:05:27.940 You're my son.

00:05:28.620 You're my blood.

00:05:30.060 But he also calls him to a higher standard, right, in the clip.

00:05:33.940 He also tells him to go visit his mother, which is his mother's grave, by the way.

00:05:38.180 Very sad.

00:05:38.960 That is sad.

00:05:39.940 Very sad.

00:05:40.520 Adrian, remember?

00:05:41.780 From Rocky.

00:05:42.620 You've seen the Rocky movies.

00:05:44.040 Of course I have.

00:05:45.160 Can you give us your best Yo, Adrian?

00:05:47.840 Yo, Adrian.

00:05:49.040 I don't know if I can do it.

00:05:50.240 I've never actually tried.

00:05:51.480 That was pretty good.

00:05:52.220 I kind of put you on the spot, but that was good.

00:05:53.520 I doubt Brian, by the way, has seen Rocky.

00:05:56.380 Actually, I'm almost sure he hasn't seen any of the Rocky movies.

00:05:59.440 He would probably make some joke, which would show that he didn't.

00:06:03.200 He'd be like, oh, you mean Thor?

00:06:05.160 He'd be like, no, Brian, Rocky.

00:06:08.460 So, Dan, what I love about this picture of fatherhood is Rocky's really saying to his son, here's how you do it.

00:06:14.500 You know, he gives him inspiration.

00:06:15.980 He encourages him.

00:06:17.660 Again, this is a good picture of how a father's words can and do shape their sons.

00:06:24.200 But as I said, we also have a lot of fatherly voices speaking to men that convey something very different, right? 1.00

00:06:29.360 Maybe the tone of how many men are spoken to in the church and in our culture today is, you're an idiot, let me tell you how stupid you are, now man up. 1.00

00:06:39.220 Now, I don't know about you, Dan, but I think a lot of the problem is, men in our culture, when you say man up, do they know what you're talking about? 1.00

00:06:46.780 No, because the picture of masculinity is so obscured.

00:06:49.760 I don't think that we have much of an idea what that phrase means other than, I mean, stop complaining might be one of the things that that actually means.

00:07:00.900 But, you know, if you think through, you know, growing up, I grew up in the late 80s, early 90s.

00:07:07.380 I was in public school.

00:07:09.000 The entire message was girl power. 1.00

00:07:12.160 Girls can do it. 0.97

00:07:13.040 Girls were the heroes.

00:07:14.380 And boys, just like, please sit down and stay still and stop.

00:07:20.640 Have some Ritalin.

00:07:22.080 Yeah.

00:07:22.820 You know, stay in your corner.

00:07:24.040 And so what does man up mean in that situation?

00:07:26.640 It means get out of the way.

00:07:28.220 Yes.

00:07:29.140 Well, it's also interesting.

00:07:30.160 it reminds me of i think he's like a guy from boston uh who has like these funny man up or be

00:07:36.680 a man i guess it is the little clips okay so he's like he's like don't let somebody else ruin your

00:07:42.860 day for you ruin it yourself be a man they're actually like not helpful pieces of advice yeah

00:07:49.800 but that is it kind of gets to this confusion of what does that actually mean to be a man to man

00:07:54.540 up i think in our day we have to actually show people and teach people and encourage people

00:07:59.000 what that picture, as you said, what that picture actually looks like.

00:08:02.340 Yeah, in the picture, in the cold open where we listen to Rocky Balboa talking to his son,

00:08:07.180 he gives that. He gives, he says very pointedly, this is what's happening. This is what you need

00:08:14.740 to do. This is what you cannot do. You can't use excuses. And by the way, you can do it and I'm

00:08:20.320 for you. Right. Yeah. And then calling him up to that, that picture that he's, yeah, that he's

00:08:26.120 laid out. Now, it's also interesting, Michael Foster's addressed this very similar thing in

00:08:32.300 a lot of his content with It's Good to Be a Man, right? On the one hand, you have the Mark Driscolls

00:08:36.680 and the Matt Chandlers who took serious shots at men during their preaching ministries, but often

00:08:42.160 it did not come across as those guys were in your corner. It was, I think, the equivalent, as we'll

00:08:48.660 see in just a minute, of like the angry dad rant, like you guys are a bunch of idiots. And again, 1.00

00:08:55.620 I think a whole generation of pastors has grown up with this man up, uh, phrase, which is like

00:09:00.900 an empty platitude. It didn't actually mean anything, uh, but it rings in many people's

00:09:05.680 ears, even though well-intentioned as a lot of people use it, it rings in a lot of people's

00:09:10.640 ears as sort of an empty Nike phrase, like just do it. And a lot of guys are saying, well, just

00:09:15.760 do what? And then, you know, the obvious question would be, how do I do that? Um, so Dan, I want to,

00:09:22.280 as we talk about fatherly words,

00:09:24.720 I want to contrast this with a very famous rant

00:09:28.740 from Mark Driscoll, which we're going to play.

00:09:31.520 We'll listen to it, and then I'll get your feedback.

00:09:41.080 Some of you guys, it's just, it's so frustrating.

00:09:49.200 Some of you guys have been coming here for years.

00:09:52.280 you still got your hands

00:09:55.660 all over your girlfriend

00:09:56.660 some of you guys

00:10:01.060 have been coming here for years

00:10:02.740 still not praying with your wife

00:10:04.860 some of you guys

00:10:07.580 have been coming here for years

00:10:09.120 you're still single 0.98

00:10:12.700 and having sex 0.79

00:10:15.220 some of you guys will even 0.99

00:10:19.400 even as I'm preaching the sermon

00:10:21.420 some of you 0.99

00:10:22.140 will be sitting next to your girlfriend

00:10:24.000 or your fiance or your wife.

00:10:27.580 Some of you guys have already given her that look.

00:10:29.780 Don't cry.

00:10:30.940 Don't let them know they're talking about me.

00:10:32.800 Just hold it together.

00:10:35.180 You've already intimidated her right ear.

00:10:39.060 Some of you guys have already whispered in her ear,

00:10:41.740 I don't want to hear it.

00:10:44.340 We're not talking about this in the car on the way home.

00:10:49.360 Some of you have already whispered in her ear,

00:10:51.760 I'm sorry, I'll do better, trust me.

00:10:53.580 Let's just move on real quickly. 0.84

00:10:57.480 How dare you? 1.00

00:10:59.600 Who in the hell do you think you are? 1.00

00:11:03.180 Abusing a woman, neglecting a woman, 1.00

00:11:06.560 being a coward, a fool, 1.00

00:11:09.900 being like your father, Adam. 1.00

00:11:12.860 Who do you think you are?

00:11:17.000 You are not God.

00:11:18.560 You are just a man.

00:11:19.600 you're not an impressive man you're not a responsible man you're not a noble man

00:11:25.420 you're not a respectable man you're not a responsible man in any regard i don't care

00:11:31.620 how successful you are in this area if you are a failure it clouds all of your dignity 0.97

00:11:39.400 it robs all of your masculinity there is no excuse for any man who claims the name of christ

00:11:49.320 to treat a woman in a dishonorable, disrespectful way.

00:11:56.280 Some of you right now, you guys will get all angry.

00:11:58.800 Oh, how dare you yell at me?

00:12:01.500 That's the Holy Spirit telling you, it's you.

00:12:05.440 It's you.

00:12:06.340 I didn't name you, he did.

00:12:10.780 You change now, little boy.

00:12:14.640 You change right now. 0.99

00:12:16.760 you shut up you put your pants on you get a job you grow up and maybe one day you can love a woman 0.98

00:12:25.620 it's for men not for boys and those of you men who are here and your wives are suffering under 1.00

00:12:34.540 your folly and failure shame on you and shame on you if you say you're a christian and shame on you

00:12:41.480 if you've been attending mars hill and shame on you if you've been surrounded by good men and 0.91

00:12:46.340 have pursued none of them. And shame on you if you've not become a member and submitted to

00:12:50.600 spiritual authority. And shame on you if you've not joined a community group so you can walk in

00:12:54.920 darkness. And shame on you if you show up to put communion in your hands, representing the body and

00:13:00.920 blood of your murdered savior, and then go put them on your girlfriend or download porn from 0.98

00:13:06.520 the internet or raise your hand in a threat to your wife. Shame on you. 1.00

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00:13:46.120 Email us at advertising at newchristendompress.com.

00:13:56.720 Okay, well, that was encouraging.

00:14:00.140 A little, Dan, a little different than the Rocky Balboa clip.

00:14:03.680 Yeah, it did have a little bit of a different ring to it, didn't it?

00:14:07.520 Kind of hits different.

00:14:09.000 It hits very different.

00:14:10.440 So I want to get your take.

00:14:11.400 The first thing I noticed was it was very demeaning and derogatory toward men.

00:14:16.120 now it it did sound like mark probably was going this is my pastoral read he had probably been

00:14:23.680 dealing with some men in pastoral counseling that had teed him off and he was seeing a trend

00:14:29.220 and certainly it's bad if you're abusing your girlfriend yes but i think the insinuation in 1.00

00:14:35.560 that video is like all men are like abusive idiots like when he said he was like listen here little 1.00

00:14:41.800 boy i was like dude if if a bro talked to me like that i would lose respect immediately yeah 1.00

00:14:48.180 absolutely the way he concluded was really interesting the clip obviously goes on

00:14:52.240 but the way he concluded was with like 27 like woe to you shame on you and so i just want to

00:15:00.740 get your take do you did you find that encouraging do you think men would be encouraged by that was

00:15:04.540 it uplifting did you walk away saying yeah you know what mark's right i want to do a better job

00:15:09.100 Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's so funny when you're listening to it. I knew we were going to play it, obviously. And I listened to it ahead of time. And so I knew what to expect. And we've all heard it to some degree, even if we've heard it in context that we're not particularly helpful to masculinity, alluding to a different podcast. If you know, you know.

00:15:28.340 you know uh so here's the thing as i listen to it even me i'm like oh that's really degrading

00:15:36.960 and really insulting and i'm kind of mad yes and i'm not like mistreating my wife i guess that was

00:15:44.060 the holy spirit working in your heart he named me well this is the other thing is like mark had this

00:15:51.340 way like this is probably market is worst i think well maybe like stripper pull mark is probably

00:15:58.060 worse. But this is one of those moments where you're like, Mark, okay, maybe you're just being

00:16:04.660 a jerk in your sermon, but no, no, it's the Holy Spirit. Yeah. How do you argue with that? 0.99

00:16:11.260 Exactly. It's a master manipulator. So I think a lot of the content in that message was necessary.

00:16:21.080 Okay. Delivery, you know, is obviously very powerful here. We are still talking about how

00:16:26.260 many years ago did he deliver that's a long time ago you can tell by a long time how bad the video

00:16:30.320 is and even the sound quality style and yes yeah all of it is very old and and so we're still

00:16:37.360 talking about it mark actually uh didn't have a ball cap like he does now in his sermons because

00:16:42.780 i think he he actually had hair oh that's right he does preach with a hat on doesn't he like has

00:16:48.140 this like major cringe trucker blue collar vibe now uh-huh arizona cowboy kind of thing yeah with

00:16:55.300 with a ball cap yeah anyway so master manipulators i was gonna say they will often use tactics like

00:17:03.440 oh you you feel convicted that's the holy spirit oh uh how dare you confront me with this thing

00:17:11.120 god called me to do it like what are you supposed to say to that it's like no god told me god called

00:17:17.680 me to call you that you're not called to do this calling like there's there is just it's it's a

00:17:24.440 manipulation tactic. And so, yeah, I mean, after listening to it, it's just an absolute like gut

00:17:31.720 punch over and over and over. And by the way, entirely unhelpful in a context of a sermon

00:17:37.900 to a mixed crowd. It would even be one thing if this was at a men's specific event. 0.98

00:17:45.260 He did also, if you listen to the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, I believe he also,

00:17:49.300 there's a recording i think of a very similar vibe in like speaking to the men yeah uh this was his

00:17:57.160 whole like william wallace the second or whatever where he had like the pseudonym in their chat

00:18:03.000 groups and he would blast people and say really racy things so on the one hand i think we could

00:18:08.500 understand why mark maybe was upset clearly had some young young men in his church and his

00:18:13.980 congregation from rough backgrounds in seattle yeah they're in seattle i mean that's like the

00:18:18.080 pit of hell, so. Yeah, so he's addressing some of those things. But I also want to ask you, Dan, 1.00

00:18:22.440 why, again, getting into some of this, why is it unhelpful? It reminded me of Doug Wilson in Future

00:18:30.260 Men. One of the masculine tendencies is for men to get angry. This is why so often in scripture

00:18:36.200 they're warned against it, right? Don't be angry. One thing Doug says in Future Men I found really

00:18:41.820 helpful, is when you're a father, he said, don't get angry, teach. Don't get angry, teach. So when

00:18:49.040 I'm parenting my sons, I have to be reminded continually, you want to do the Mark thing and

00:18:54.880 fly off the handle and just lose it. But it's not actually helpful from a fathering perspective.

00:19:03.220 So I just want to get your thoughts on that. Why is losing your temper in the way that... Now,

00:19:09.280 Mark was probably, this kind of feels like an act to me.

00:19:12.600 Well, he did it for like all of their sermons.

00:19:15.820 There was, yeah, they had services.

00:19:18.680 Like they had six services or something crazy like that.

00:19:21.000 I don't remember the exact number, but he did it for every single one.

00:19:24.180 Really?

00:19:24.600 Yes.

00:19:25.080 So it wasn't like in the moment, like I'm really mad and I'm just going to lose it.

00:19:29.300 Yeah.

00:19:29.820 It was a contrived thing ahead of time.

00:19:32.380 Yeah, for sure.

00:19:32.980 From what I understand.

00:19:34.160 Yeah.

00:19:34.340 So why do you find this so unhelpful?

00:19:36.300 Why is that an helpful?

00:19:37.860 It's unhelpful as a model for fathers, particularly with sons.

00:19:42.780 Why?

00:19:43.340 Yeah.

00:19:43.620 So it's interesting in Ephesians chapter 6, it says, fathers, this is verse 4, fathers,

00:19:51.740 do not provoke your children to anger.

00:19:55.300 If anything, that clip makes me angry.

00:19:59.040 Right.

00:19:59.400 It provokes. 0.72

00:20:00.120 It provokes.

00:20:01.140 Yeah.

00:20:01.680 He even says, like, if you are provoked, that's the Holy Spirit.

00:20:05.340 A church father now saying this.

00:20:07.120 So, fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

00:20:13.160 So, don't get angry, teach.

00:20:15.440 I mean, that's what Paul is saying in this passage.

00:20:18.240 Yes.

00:20:18.440 Don't get angry, teach.

00:20:20.080 Yeah, bring them up in the discipline of the Lord, discipline and instruction of the Lord.

00:20:24.860 And so, I mean, I find this to be incredibly unhelpful.

00:20:30.420 At the same time, like, listen, I'm not the tone police.

00:20:34.920 like there's something really really important and masculine about direct talk but you this is

00:20:42.500 why we contrasted it with the rocky clip is because i don't think anybody can can say in that clip

00:20:49.820 that rocky was pulling punches that he was being too soft no he was laying it out straight and even

00:20:58.200 gets a little heated it in the one part of it yeah absolutely i think the difference is rocky

00:21:04.180 he closes with, listen, I'm for you. You're my blood. You're my son. I'll always love you.

00:21:09.640 Mark closes with shame on you. Like 20 times. Well, and there's teaching involved, right? And

00:21:15.260 the whole thing is instructive from Rocky in this pretend, you know, speech that he gave. But,

00:21:22.160 but yeah, in with Mark, it incites anger. It, it is a great way to lose, like you said, respect

00:21:30.060 and to lose the hearts of the young men.

00:21:32.700 Yes.

00:21:33.200 There's another thing in there that we were talking about offline before this

00:21:37.320 is that it highlights bad pastoring in the church,

00:21:40.800 bad fathering in the church as well.

00:21:43.000 How do you mean?

00:21:43.500 Well, because he says, quote,

00:21:46.120 you've been coming here for years

00:21:47.920 and your hands are still all over your girlfriend.

00:21:50.520 You've been coming here for years and you're single 0.99

00:21:52.900 and you're still having sex. 0.97

00:21:54.280 You've been coming here for years 0.99

00:21:55.920 and you still raise your hand against your wife.

00:21:57.860 what in the world is going on in that church like how has there not been a meeting and maybe there's

00:22:06.160 been many meetings and it was running rampant i don't know i i don't know but how can you allow

00:22:11.920 those things to happen for years and not have church discipline church discipline doesn't take

00:22:17.640 years it takes time but it doesn't take years to have somebody who's a serial fornicator or a wife

00:22:25.360 beater or someone like that to go under church discipline. The thing is, sin is like yeast. It 0.79

00:22:33.640 multiplies, right? And so you have to squash that in the church really quickly to put out the sin

00:22:41.040 amongst you because it spreads. And so, I mean, quite honestly, what this highlights to me

00:22:46.540 is bad fathering in the church. Church fathers, I mean, pastors are operating in that way that

00:22:52.620 they've allowed the sins to run rampant well and that's actually a good parallel to parenting i've

00:22:59.300 found this multiple times in my own life maybe you're really busy at work for a season you're

00:23:04.320 really preoccupied you're on your phone at night your kids are fighting whatever you watch something

00:23:09.360 happen for like a week and then you just lose it as a dad what's wrong with you people don't you

00:23:15.460 know blah blah blah kind of mark fashion but really what it reveals is that well you haven't

00:23:21.440 been faithful and consistent in fathering that whole time and then you blew up right and then

00:23:27.180 your children emulate that behavior then as well where they blow up right and so that's the other

00:23:31.980 question i want to ask you about this mark's also he's he's saying you know all these issues with

00:23:37.960 the young guys but he's also modeling to all the men in the church how to father yes why why in my

00:23:46.100 mind, I'm thinking, is that so problematic? Well, I'm thinking about Ed Friedman's book.

00:23:51.440 Again, Michael Foster, Rich Lusk have talked about this really helpful book. It's called

00:23:56.480 The Failure of Nerve. And it talks about how leadership is fundamentally about presence,

00:24:03.100 a calm, steady, gravitas presence. And so what he talks a lot about in the book

00:24:09.160 is that when situations are really tense and really tough, you need to be the ironic guy.

00:24:15.000 so when your son comes home and he's mouthing off to mom which you'll find

00:24:19.000 gets complicated when they're teenage sons it's really helpful just to stand in between them

00:24:25.620 like your physical presence stand in between them and then you say to your son son is that

00:24:30.200 the way that we talk to our mother like you don't flip out so i started practicing this

00:24:36.080 practicing this michael had recommended it he's modeled it whatever and it's amazingly effective

00:24:42.080 because what you actually want to do is turn the temperature down.

00:24:45.860 So wait a minute.

00:24:46.860 So when, you know, your kids would never do this,

00:24:49.660 but when a teenage boy gets mouthy with mom,

00:24:52.580 you don't walk in there and say, 0.95

00:24:54.200 who the hell do you think you are to talk to your mother this way? 1.00

00:24:57.520 Shame on you. 1.00

00:24:58.460 You've been my son for years, and you talk to your mother this way, little boy.

00:25:04.940 Go put your pants on.

00:25:06.200 Get a job. 0.98

00:25:07.080 No.

00:25:08.020 No, in fact, and there have been times, sinfully,

00:25:11.120 I've repented of them to my wife and to my sons where I've lost my temper.

00:25:16.100 I'm sure many dads could identify with that.

00:25:18.680 But I had also seen it in counseling sessions in past ministries where like dads and teenage sons were getting into like shoving, pushing, hitting matches.

00:25:30.260 Dad better win.

00:25:31.100 That's all I'm going to say.

00:25:32.100 If you're going to fight with your son, you better win.

00:25:34.300 But looking at that.

00:25:35.300 That was a joke, by the way.

00:25:36.360 Yes, it's a joke.

00:25:37.600 But yeah, you're looking at that and you're like, that's really unhelpful.

00:25:40.140 It's unproductive.

00:25:41.120 it's a way to provoke anger.

00:25:43.720 Yes, absolutely.

00:25:44.620 And again, you can take these and apply to different fatherly type roles in the church.

00:25:49.380 You can take it to your workplace.

00:25:52.340 Somebody comes in and they're really, you know, ticked off at what's going on in the office.

00:25:56.360 And you say, interesting.

00:25:57.980 It sounds like you're really upset.

00:25:59.440 Let's talk about this.

00:26:00.940 Maybe list out your five top complaints.

00:26:02.720 Let's go through them.

00:26:04.040 I've had bosses who did this with me.

00:26:05.960 You know, you're really fired up.

00:26:07.700 And they're just ironic and patient and calm.

00:26:09.960 So I guess my point in all of this, this responding in anger and then modeling that for the children or modeling it for your congregation, I think it's actually counterproductive.

00:26:21.660 Yes, absolutely.

00:26:23.500 Absolutely, it's counterproductive.

00:26:25.500 I mean, like you said, you're giving men a model then in which to father their sons and to speak to other men as well.

00:26:34.400 This is how you talk to guys.

00:26:35.820 Freaking out at guys.

00:26:36.660 Yeah. I mean, because what is happening is you have a student-teacher relationship. And so when a student is fully mature, he becomes like his teacher. And so, I mean, that's what you should expect then is actually more of what Mark is yelling at instead of less.

00:26:53.160 Yeah, and we know from the fruit of the ministry,

00:26:54.840 obviously it was typified.

00:26:57.340 The failure of the ministry was typified

00:26:58.840 by controlling angry men, i.e. Mark.

00:27:02.880 Yeah.

00:27:03.240 And then the whole thing kind of detonates.

00:27:05.420 The other question I have in all this, though, Dan,

00:27:07.640 is we compare and contrast this

00:27:09.280 to something we've discussed in the past,

00:27:11.900 in past episodes with the OnlyFans.

00:27:14.600 In that episode, we played a Matt Chandler clip

00:27:16.840 when he was talking to men,

00:27:18.800 but then also Jesus Wants the Rose talking to the ladies.

00:27:21.760 Do you find that Matt Chandler addresses, and Mark is really the same here,

00:27:26.900 do you find that he addresses the sins of women in that same manner as he did with men?

00:27:32.460 No.

00:27:33.840 No.

00:27:34.760 Actually, it was interesting.

00:27:36.560 I was looking for another clip.

00:27:37.740 I figured we probably have enough.

00:27:39.400 There was a clip of Matt Chandler, and he's talking to women.

00:27:43.500 And it's in a men's series, by the way.

00:27:46.220 And he was saying, women, you need to raise the standard.

00:27:50.000 you need to raise the bar when you're looking for a man like you can't just have a low standard and

00:27:55.440 i mean obviously all this is true but he he's essentially saying don't don't settle for these

00:28:00.440 worthless guys you are too valuable you are too important do not settle for a worthless man and

00:28:07.300 all that i can say yes but knowing that on the other side he's not saying now to men

00:28:11.920 do not settle for the loose woman do not settle for the woman with syphilis do not settle for the 0.89

00:28:19.620 immodest woman, the loud woman, the brash 0.95

00:28:21.840 woman, the woman who wants a teaching ministry. 1.00

00:28:23.980 Do not settle for that. 0.99

00:28:26.180 You are too valuable to 1.00

00:28:27.680 give your strength away to women. 0.99

00:28:29.660 Jesus wants the rose. 1.00

00:28:31.400 Well, he does, but he 1.00

00:28:33.620 also wants you to not be a whore. 0.99

00:28:37.760 That's 1.00

00:28:38.160 true.

00:28:39.900 Both things are true.

00:28:41.460 Was I not supposed to say that? No, that's right.

00:28:43.800 Jesus wants you not to be a whore. 1.00

00:28:46.180 And I think also... 1.00

00:28:47.520 We're going King James Version.

00:28:48.800 Yeah, KJB, that's right. But I think also it will produce a certain kind of fruit in your congregation. This is where I think complementarian theology fits so well in these circles, is you're always going hard at the men, little boy, shameful, you're a joke, who the hell do you think you are?

00:29:07.700 in that same sermon 0.97

00:29:09.480 Mark is

00:29:12.300 really talking about women in a way like

00:29:13.820 they're like this heroic princess 1.00

00:29:16.240 in a tower and you have defiled them

00:29:18.180 let's be real 1.00

00:29:19.480 I've counseled women from these broken 0.92

00:29:22.100 Seattle type situations 1.00

00:29:24.120 the women ain't no cakewalk 1.00

00:29:26.160 my friend like usually 1.00

00:29:28.080 in abusive relationships it's like they have

00:29:30.140 a lot of dysfunction that goes to both

00:29:32.340 parties and it both

00:29:34.380 needs to be addressed fairly

00:29:36.120 even handedly

00:29:37.260 etc but i think you're going to produce a certain kind of fruit in your congregation long term when 1.00

00:29:43.900 you're always the consistent messages men you guys are idiots women have high standards because you 0.99

00:29:49.940 you are just slay queen you are so wonderful in every way so let me ask you this what do you think 0.99

00:29:57.380 the long-term fruit and say like a marriage is going to be when you have that dynamic going on

00:30:03.680 Well, yeah, so what that sort of teaching does is it encourages the natural sins that will occur in the grain of each person in the marriage, within the grain of your sex, right?

00:30:18.680 It encourages men, as you get beat down, to abdicate or to dominate, right? 0.99

00:30:26.160 Because either, so the response from men, the temptation of the response from men with teaching like that is to either shrink back and say, you're right, I am a piece of garbage. 0.99

00:30:38.440 You're right, I am a little boy. 0.99

00:30:41.140 You're right, I am nothing of value.

00:30:43.980 And my wife, she is, she's a goddess.

00:30:47.880 Do you remember that part of this Chandler sermon last week

00:30:51.240 where he was like,

00:30:53.360 man, when you come home, I want you to get on your knees 0.98

00:30:56.120 and you serve that woman and you check her heart

00:30:58.440 and you see how mama's doing it.

00:30:59.960 And I was just like, oh.

00:31:02.280 Yeah, so you have one where that's abdication, right?

00:31:05.300 That's abdication.

00:31:06.200 It's emasculating.

00:31:07.280 It's abdication.

00:31:08.680 And then you have the other ditch, 0.54

00:31:10.860 which is I will then emulate that sort of teaching

00:31:13.900 and I'm going to then turn that onto my family

00:31:16.840 and I'm going to yell and lose my self-control and I'm going to become like this man, right?

00:31:22.920 And so I'm going to be really yelly, really angry. I'm going to be a tyrant. Okay. So that's

00:31:28.340 the masculine side. The feminine sins are going to be like, how many times do you have to hear 1.00

00:31:34.540 that you're, you're valuable? You are, I mean, I mean, your biggest sin is that you don't think 1.00

00:31:39.920 highly enough of yourself. Like your, your self-confidence is too low. You need to really

00:31:44.840 be like, look at your inner feminine and really ascend to the heights, you know, of your feminine 0.68

00:31:51.040 glory, you're going to think that, yeah, you're right. My desire will be for my husband. I am in

00:31:58.380 control. Like I can lead my husband around by this hook because pastor said he's a little boy.

00:32:05.580 Pastor said he's not taking responsibility. Pastor said that he's just a boy who shaves, 0.87

00:32:11.060 But I do not have those issues.

00:32:13.860 I mean, I can't think of a single sin.

00:32:16.500 Like, that's going to be the nature of this relationship.

00:32:20.000 And some people might be tempted to say, like, well, that's a straw man.

00:32:24.520 Except that actually does happen.

00:32:26.740 And we've seen it exist.

00:32:28.320 We play these clips, I think, because it's a way of showing the receipts,

00:32:31.280 but helping people also understand this stuff really has been going on for a long time.

00:32:35.700 These are not new clips.

00:32:37.200 It's going on a long time.

00:32:39.200 By the way, these are complementarian sermons.

00:32:42.520 Yes.

00:32:43.040 That is the thing to highlight, too.

00:32:44.720 Yeah.

00:32:45.440 I think the long-term net effect I've seen in marriages, like marriage counseling, 0.99

00:32:50.100 this type of preaching really puts the woman in the driver's seat of the relationship. 0.99

00:32:54.800 Yes. 0.99

00:32:55.220 It neuters the guy so that he really never has a leg to stand on in terms of actually taking lead in the relationship.

00:33:02.880 because it's fundamentally taking the view of like men are the abusers,

00:33:09.560 women are the victims,

00:33:10.460 and that's how you need to view the hierarchy of your marriage. 1.00

00:33:14.400 Yeah.

00:33:15.180 And one other thing that happens when men abdicate

00:33:18.380 is that the relationship, the married relationship,

00:33:21.920 becomes almost like mother-son,

00:33:24.480 which sounds really weird and it is really weird,

00:33:28.380 but that's what happens when a man abdicates

00:33:30.600 and fully identifies with being the man who is full of shame

00:33:35.760 and doesn't have a leg to stand on.

00:33:38.960 There is nothing to be called up to 1.00

00:33:40.460 other than just like, don't taint your glorious wife.

00:33:45.560 And then it ends up like he has to go to her for permission.

00:33:49.360 Can I buy this thing?

00:33:50.700 Can we do this thing?

00:33:52.120 Should I take this job?

00:33:54.100 Whatever.

00:33:54.560 And it becomes like a mother-son relationship,

00:33:56.660 which is very, very problematic.

00:33:59.740 Yeah, absolutely.

00:34:00.600 Great book on this, by the way.

00:34:02.820 I think it's Dr. Robert Glover, but No More Mr. Nice Guy.

00:34:07.860 Kind of like why the nice guy thing always backfires.

00:34:10.640 Interesting.

00:34:11.360 It's like a secular view, but it's basically describing why complementarianism doesn't work.

00:34:15.900 So helpful if people want to check that out.

00:34:19.000 Dan, what I want to do now at this point in the show is kind of move on to the positive and the negative of looking at ways of how a father's voice in the home shapes the home.

00:34:28.860 Right?

00:34:29.300 So Father's voice is very powerful.

00:34:32.140 Brian mentioned a statistic.

00:34:34.080 I've seen this in a number of places where really there is undue weight in God's order.

00:34:40.160 Like the Father just has a very massive weighty influence on the home, whether his presence is there, whether he's involved.

00:34:48.000 But also we're going to be talking about now his voice.

00:34:51.640 So one of the things to consider in all this is Proverbs 18.21.

00:34:55.400 Proverbs 18.21 says,

00:34:56.800 Death and life are in the power of the tongue.

00:34:58.560 and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

00:35:02.520 So, Dan, first of all, this is just a very powerful statement.

00:35:06.380 In the words of your mouth, you can kill or you can give life.

00:35:11.520 So when you think about the fatherly roles, this is very weighty.

00:35:16.300 And I think especially for us fathers in the church,

00:35:18.580 it's very weighty because the things that we say either kill or give life.

00:35:22.300 Yes.

00:35:22.580 It's also interesting in this verse that Solomon doesn't say,

00:35:26.920 Words sometimes kill, they sometimes give life, and sometimes they're kind of neutral, right?

00:35:32.100 There's really no middle ground here.

00:35:33.600 It's very binary in the way that he describes this.

00:35:35.960 So I think a good question, fathers, as we begin this conversation, you can ask yourselves,

00:35:41.140 what are my words doing in the home?

00:35:44.460 Evaluate the individual words as you go through your day.

00:35:47.280 Maybe even just take stock, conversations, interactions in your home.

00:35:52.080 What did I say?

00:35:53.280 Is that life-giving or is that killing?

00:35:56.160 uh, when you're, I've, I think I've mentioned this before, at least on the hard men podcast,

00:36:00.340 but you know, it might be small things when you come home and your wife says, you say to your

00:36:04.140 wife, as I do every night, what's for dinner? And she goes, Oh, we're really every night.

00:36:09.400 Oh, that's funny. Hey, what's for dinner. And she says, we're having this. And I go, you know,

00:36:14.620 past mistakes. Hopefully I've corrected these, but in the past I would say like, Oh, do you have

00:36:18.220 this side and she go no they go oh well that's a bummer okay what a turd newsflash that was a 0.87

00:36:27.800 bad move that was a dumb bad move but that is a way that you're you're actually killing like your 0.98

00:36:33.640 wife spent this time cooking a meal serving the family and all you did was complain about it 0.98

00:36:39.300 so did you kill or did you give life ultimately like discouragement as a i would put on the

00:36:44.540 spectrum of killing. Yeah. I walk in the door and I say, sweetie, where are my children and 0.97

00:36:49.840 what have they destroyed? Yes. Yes. I've also, I've also, uh, are they all alive? Are they all

00:36:57.320 alive? Yeah. Does anyone need to go to the hospital? Are they in good shape? You know,

00:37:00.720 I've done story time before on this podcast and I don't want my children to take it away from me,

00:37:05.640 but let's just say they're bent on hurting themselves. Yes. Children are, they are indeed

00:37:10.980 crazy. So anyway, I think this is a good way for us to evaluate it. The other thing I want to tie 0.98

00:37:15.380 this to, though, is the example of Christ. So when you think about Jesus' ministry, he had

00:37:21.500 the original 12 disciples. There's more disciples than that, but his inner circle of 12.

00:37:27.160 And what you find throughout, particularly like Mark's gospel, Jesus is continually dealing with

00:37:33.500 stubborn, hard-hearted, unbelieving men with failures. But it's so instructive the way that

00:37:40.400 he deals with his men. You know, he's the older brother. He's the leader of those men. He's

00:37:46.200 continually teaching, encouraging them. He's reminding them of their mission. He's using

00:37:53.620 parables. He sets children before them. He models the right form of leadership. You never see Jesus

00:38:01.180 just absolutely lose it. You never see Jesus saying to the disciples, who do some really

00:38:06.880 foolish things. Jesus is teaching on the cross, Mark chapter 10, and going to the cross. And his

00:38:13.840 disciples immediately began fighting over who is the greatest among them. Like, they have

00:38:19.040 colossally, as bad as you could, missed the point of what he's teaching them.

00:38:25.300 And what does Jesus do? You know, who in the hell do you think you are? What's wrong with you people? 0.91

00:38:30.740 No. He's like, guys, listen, come here, come closer. You're not getting me. And then he

00:38:37.240 teaches. So I think Jesus is perhaps the perfect example of don't get angry, teach. You also see

00:38:44.780 like with Peter, Peter and John at the end of John's gospel, Jesus, after everything that's

00:38:51.020 happened, Peter's betrayed him, doesn't rub it in his face, three times confirms him, feed my sheep.

00:38:57.480 Peter come like I got work for you I got a mission I believe in you you can do this you can do this

00:39:04.500 and by the way I don't know if Peter had a weightier mission than any mission given in

00:39:09.560 the history of the world yeah outside of Jesus himself but I'm talking post-Christ like

00:39:15.240 the weight of the church rests on what the work you're going to do I would have been terrified

00:39:23.100 and yet jesus is there confirming him eventually filling them with the spirit giving them the

00:39:30.560 tools they need so i think this is a good fatherly type of picture of how we ought to treat our men

00:39:37.820 so dan i just want to get your response to that i mean that's that is a really encouraging example

00:39:44.920 i hadn't really made that connection for for the show because i'm so in the weeds as far as

00:39:50.060 examples of fathers, but the words of Christ and specifically how he's speaking to his disciples,

00:39:56.780 that is a really interesting connection, even to where there's a delineation with outsiders.

00:40:02.380 And he's like, no, no, no, let me explain the parable to you. I speak to them so they don't 0.97

00:40:07.000 understand, but not to you. I'll speak plainly to you. And he brings them together and then he

00:40:14.140 instructs them and teaches them. And even when he rebukes them, there's restoration, right? Get

00:40:19.140 behind me, Satan. But then all of a sudden, you know, there's, there's restoration and alignment

00:40:24.560 with the vision of the father, you know, and that's constantly what it's coming back to.

00:40:30.660 It is, it is even in the most direct rebukes, it is, there's no question Jesus is for them

00:40:38.380 and it wants to bring them in alignment and is instructing them and bringing them along

00:40:43.340 and is in their corner. Yeah. So that's, man, that's a really good connection.

00:40:47.780 Yeah, one of the things I learned from an older pastor that was really helpful,

00:40:51.000 when you have these heated situations, I find I have them more,

00:40:55.140 they're more difficult when it's teenage sons.

00:40:57.720 You know, if you've got a son who's just being obstinate, you know,

00:41:00.940 you're dealing with attitudes, whatever it is.

00:41:03.820 But I learned this from an older pastor.

00:41:05.400 And so what I'll do a lot of times, they're kind of being turds.

00:41:09.540 And I will walk up to them, and I will hug them, and I will hold them,

00:41:12.900 and I will kiss them.

00:41:15.580 And I say, son, I love you.

00:41:17.260 dearly and then well we're gonna talk ironically we're gonna have a conversation but i think even

00:41:25.380 those things of like disarming um i know a lot of grown men that that would seem like a weird thing

00:41:30.760 kiss your son on the cheek kiss him on the neck tell him how much you love him uh but it really

00:41:35.200 does disarm and it changes the temperature so i think one of the things with our words as men we

00:41:40.260 got to be aware of is your words are like a thermostat right what are you saying which is

00:41:45.540 a reflection of your heart. And that's going to change the dynamic of the home. And one of the

00:41:50.680 biggest temptations is something irritates you, you fly off the handle, or in that moment, you

00:41:57.120 say, okay, I need to actively intentionally turn down the temperature. Yeah. Right. I mean,

00:42:03.040 that's really wise. I'm working in the opposite direction. Yeah. I mean, you've seen this in like

00:42:06.980 basic conflict resolution or whatever, but yeah, it's especially true for being a father. When

00:42:12.860 things start to get heated, turn the temperature down. You speak with a slow, calm voice. Remain

00:42:19.800 self-controlled. Focus on body posture. I find this in counseling. If you're sitting there and

00:42:26.640 somebody's really angry, if you can even sit in a way that open hands, open stance, don't fold

00:42:33.360 your hands, don't clench your fists, lean over the table and pull your knife out. None of that.

00:42:38.940 arms crossed and rage whispering under your breath curses yes all things that are unhelpful

00:42:46.980 uh dan one of the stories i i did want to tell here because it was such a cool one this was

00:42:51.460 recent uh but i had the opportunity to visit brian at the hospital after alfred was born

00:42:56.100 and it was really cool because we were in the kind of little they have like the baby heater

00:43:02.680 because they're all paranoid about we need to heat this baby up okay so they put them under

00:43:07.960 They're like, I don't know what.

00:43:09.040 It's probably terrible, but they put them under something.

00:43:10.560 McDonald's French fry lights.

00:43:11.820 Yes, that's what it is.

00:43:13.900 So little Alfred's heating up.

00:43:15.120 The nurses are talking all around.

00:43:16.900 He started to get a little fussy because they wanted to take his temperature for the 150th time in five minutes.

00:43:22.620 And as he did, Brian just leaned down and he said, hey, little guy.

00:43:27.480 He's like, dad's here.

00:43:29.000 And baby, like, turns his head completely to dad, immediately calms down.

00:43:34.900 like fully wasn't even responding to the nurse's voices nothing i was talking

00:43:40.040 naturally doing a lot of talking and brian starts talking to his son and it was like

00:43:46.160 immediately calmed down turned to look at dad and they're just like looking at each other from like

00:43:51.220 six inches away just such a cool such a cool fatherly moment so it reminded me of something

00:43:57.720 i had written for the learning well homeschool journal and uh in that article i was talking

00:44:03.340 about. When you look at research, it's pretty clear babies begin recognizing their father's

00:44:08.960 voice in the womb as early as 18 weeks in pregnancy. So when a father's voice is heard

00:44:14.280 regularly throughout the pregnancy, a newborn can recognize it immediately after birth. And one of

00:44:21.500 the studies they do, they just look at the heart rate of the baby. Dad will begin speaking. Immediately

00:44:26.660 the heart rate jumps up. They become responsive. So I think what it points to is a sort of

00:44:32.580 overlooked truth, but it's also obvious that children are hardwired from the moment of

00:44:37.280 conception to respond to their parents' voices, especially that of the father, right?

00:44:42.760 These voices are going to shape their world in nearly every conceivable way.

00:44:47.600 So a father's voice conveys a sense of authority, right?

00:44:51.140 Our voice is a sense of security in our children's life.

00:44:55.320 It brings comfort in times of distress, right?

00:44:58.920 we're reassuring our children when they're racked with anxiety. We're also setting the boundaries

00:45:04.320 of their lives with our words, right? So things like teaching the law, order, rules, moral standards,

00:45:10.520 et cetera. These are all really powerful things. And I was thinking of Teddy Roosevelt.

00:45:16.780 When he was a boy, he had asthma attacks. And the only thing that they could ever find that

00:45:20.940 would calm him down is his father would hold him and talk to him. And as he did that, he would,

00:45:27.180 he would he would calm down i couldn't help dan but thinking about the father we've talked about

00:45:33.380 this before the father's voice over jesus this is my son my beloved son with whom i am well pleased

00:45:40.100 and then he sends him out on a mission it's really interesting to me that before the mission comes

00:45:45.740 it's communication of love this i love my son so when we think about our sons as arrows we're

00:45:54.100 sending them out into the world, there has to be this, this space like Rocky, where he's like,

00:46:00.840 you're my blood. I love you. You're my son. You can do this again, encouragement. So I I'm thinking

00:46:07.700 about all this, Dan, and I'm saying, wow, father's voice is very powerful in the home. Um, I wonder

00:46:13.040 if you have any, like, is there anything in your life you can think of that would resonate with

00:46:17.260 that? Where you say like, yeah, you know, the things I've said or the things my father said,

00:46:20.880 or you know of stories like that

00:46:23.060 where just a father's voice has been so powerful?

00:46:27.720 One thing that immediately comes to mind

00:46:29.420 is reading stories to my children, to my boys.

00:46:33.920 Interesting.

00:46:35.460 Just the power of using those stories

00:46:39.500 and influencing their perspective

00:46:41.660 and calling them up to virtue.

00:46:44.520 So I was having a conversation the other day

00:46:46.800 with my eldest boy,

00:46:48.180 and he he was he wasn't being a great brother he was really picking on his younger brothers

00:46:54.180 and i talked about the story of saint george and the dragon and about courage and virtue

00:47:02.560 and there are some there is some lots going on with him but but essentially i was able to use

00:47:10.620 a story and he knew it exactly what i was talking about he knew exactly what i was talking about

00:47:15.940 because in the story you know it talks about how saint george he's like this single knight

00:47:22.300 doesn't know his past the fairy queen sends him out on this mission okay and he's helping these

00:47:27.600 people meaning he has to sacrifice he was i'm sure he was scared of the dragon and he still

00:47:34.200 ascended to courage and to virtue for the sake of others and so i was able to tell my boy

00:47:43.160 hey, listen, if you want to kill the dragon, if you want to be like St. George, you have to think

00:47:49.820 of others and not just merely yourself, because you'll end up being a tyrant and not the hero.

00:47:57.380 And so, I mean, that's just one of many stories, you know, from as far as just reading to your

00:48:03.240 children, just the power of that has been so helpful in informing the thoughts of my sons.

00:48:10.200 Yeah, big time. I mean, I think about even in Plato's Republic, he talks about how if we want to, you know, give culture, transmit culture to our children, one of the key forms of education and formation that we need to rely upon is stories.

00:48:26.160 So you think about the stories we tell in the home and how it shapes the culture.

00:48:30.140 I mean, even the stories that Doug Wilson has told over the years that's inspired our

00:48:33.620 vision of Christendom and post-millennial theology, we talk about the stories of King

00:48:41.320 Alfred, the stories of even somebody like Arthur Guinness, buying a 9,000-year lease,

00:48:48.080 paying for a 9,000-year lease.

00:48:49.740 Those things actually shape who you become as men.

00:48:52.920 And so I think when you talk about the positive ways a father's words shape, it's like, well, tell great stories, give your kids the stories that will inspire their love and their passion toward the kind of aim you want to aim at.

00:49:08.080 So one of the encouraging things about St. Brennan's is we do, and especially our oldest boys, they do a lot of reading.

00:49:15.280 And that reading is, you know, from the classical Western canon.

00:49:20.520 Yeah.

00:49:20.700 And so one of the things that happens is, you know, I was laughing, my youngest the other day, he was talking about, he's reading Marco Polo.

00:49:30.360 And he's just fascinated with the adventure and everything going on.

00:49:33.880 I'm like, well, that's really cool.

00:49:35.360 Then I talked to my oldest son and he's like, Dad, I hope by the time I'm 18, I'm married and I have a son.

00:49:43.940 And I'm like, okay, that's lofty goals, but okay.

00:49:47.580 Pump the brakes a little bit.

00:49:48.580 Pump the brakes.

00:49:49.080 well he's he's almost 16 he's like i'm gonna start two businesses one for the summer which

00:49:55.020 is landscaping and then i need something to do during the school year when you don't need to

00:49:59.500 cut grass i'm like well that's actually interesting he's like i need to save money so they can get a

00:50:05.060 wife i'm like okay cool but i love it he goes i want to name my firstborn son charlemagne

00:50:11.420 And I was like, okay, yes, well, that's awesome, and you can let your wife know that, and you guys can discuss.

00:50:23.280 But just really cool that those – you see how those stories shape what they think is great and beautiful and good and glorious.

00:50:30.340 And so I think that's one way that our words shape the culture.

00:50:34.600 We also, one of the really overlooked things, but we lay down the law, not in a cruel, tyrannical way, but you think about, especially when your kids are young, what do you do more than anything else?

00:50:46.720 Don't do this.

00:50:47.600 Don't do that.

00:50:48.520 It's fundamentally like how the Mosaic law works for young children.

00:50:53.020 God's actually being merciful by saying, don't do all these things.

00:50:56.620 Ten commandments are framed in negative fashion.

00:50:58.980 Yeah.

00:50:59.080 And so we see that that's wise fatherhood, that your children know where the boundaries are.

00:51:03.840 you consistently enforce those boundaries. Your kids don't have to guess because dad is always

00:51:10.020 consistent in applying the law. That's going to shape a kid's life. So what are some other ways?

00:51:16.660 I mean, maybe you could talk about the way that a father's voice brings comfort. I know,

00:51:21.820 I'm guessing, and some of the injuries that your children have had, that you also have to be there

00:51:27.420 to hold in comfort. That's kind of maybe what we didn't get from Mark Driscoll's sermon.

00:51:32.020 Yeah. Yeah. You know, my boys, they're particularly needy for their father. Anytime one of my boys is crying, they don't want mom. I don't know what's wrong. I don't. Dan, you're just a big comforting teddy bear.

00:51:46.800 uh maybe i mean i've never got that vibe but your kids clearly no it is actually funny because like

00:51:54.620 dan will go up i remember in the past like you would go up for communion and one of your kids

00:51:59.440 would just freak out yeah probably calvin like don't leave me daddy yeah don't leave me dad

00:52:04.880 hold me daddy yes i want daddy you know crying usually or throwing a fit but yeah uh it is

00:52:12.200 really powerful in a way that I don't I don't think my my wife has the same I guess effect

00:52:20.700 my boys they just I don't know if it's a security thing or what it is but uh yeah there's something

00:52:27.980 really powerful about a father holding a son father holding a daughter uh for comfort because

00:52:33.980 there's so much safety there it really is a beautiful picture because it's it's such a

00:52:39.180 scriptural picture as well. And it's within the grain of our nature, you know, to want the embrace

00:52:44.580 of the father, to want the approval of the father, to want the security and comforting of a father

00:52:49.520 is very much so in our nature. And so much of the issues that we have in our society today

00:52:56.860 are because there was no father there to say, don't do that. And when you fail, you can come

00:53:01.740 to me because I will protect you. I will comfort you. I think that's great. You think about 2

00:53:08.000 Corinthians 1, what's said about the father is he's the father of all comfort, the God of all

00:53:12.240 mercy. And so thinking about our fatherhood, is that the way your children view you? Are you their

00:53:17.400 source of mercy and comfort? So often I think, dads, we do have this role of toughening our

00:53:23.320 sons up, especially, but that's not the only side, right? There has to be a point where you're

00:53:30.120 holding your sons, you're comforting them, you're telling them that you love them, it's going to be

00:53:34.840 okay. I know that. How can you properly toughen your sons though, if they don't know you have

00:53:39.640 your back? Yeah. They're going to be scared. They're going to become weak. Because the one

00:53:44.100 thing we don't want them to see and hear from us is you're on your own. Yeah. You're going to have

00:53:49.560 to figure it out yourself. Yeah. Good luck. We want to, yeah, be that source of comfort. I also

00:53:55.320 think when you look at the gospel, the father sending Jesus for this great work of salvation

00:54:00.780 and the message to the prophets is comfort, comfort my people.

00:54:05.660 Like that's the father's desire.

00:54:07.820 I would also tie it to something that Doug Wilson has said.

00:54:12.380 I actually heard Luke Jankovic talk about this.

00:54:15.460 But he said, you know, Doug would always say, be the blessing man.

00:54:19.840 You know, like you're Tom Bombadil in your house.

00:54:22.180 Wherever you go, blessings follow, right?

00:54:24.560 You want to be a good gift giver.

00:54:26.340 You want to have a lot of yeses.

00:54:28.300 You want to be just generous with your time, your energy, your attention.

00:54:34.860 You know, your kids come home and they want to tell you every single thing that they learned

00:54:37.920 that day.

00:54:39.260 Listen attentively.

00:54:40.360 When they're younger, it's daddy, read that book again.

00:54:43.460 You know, be attentive.

00:54:45.080 And as you said, that's, but those are the moments when you're going to win your son's

00:54:47.980 hearts with your words.

00:54:50.580 It's not the moments where you lose your temper and, you know, who the hell do you think you

00:54:56.140 are?

00:54:56.300 That's not when you win the kids.

00:54:59.720 No, absolutely not.

00:55:00.720 Especially when you have to lay down the law, you have to balance it.

00:55:04.020 You have to balance it because if it's all law all the time, you become a tyrant and

00:55:08.800 they'll run from you.

00:55:09.720 Yes.

00:55:10.120 That you will not win their heart.

00:55:11.480 They will run from you and they will emulate you, you know, and become tyrants themselves.

00:55:17.280 Yeah.

00:55:17.460 So obviously we want to keep our kids and win their hearts.

00:55:20.560 So I want to kind of wrap this episode up by reading.

00:55:24.580 This is going to really do all the heavy lifting for an example of how words kill.

00:55:29.900 And we won't over-explain it.

00:55:32.260 But this is from my friend Jacob Pippen.

00:55:34.260 He wrote this a while back.

00:55:36.200 I published it on ericcon.com.

00:55:38.600 But I think this is the perfect example of how a father's words can kill

00:55:43.600 and why we need to avoid these types of words.

00:55:46.860 So, Dan, I'm going to ask you to read that for me.

00:55:50.100 Sure.

00:55:50.520 This is an excerpt, by the way.

00:55:53.760 I come from a long line of failed fathers.

00:55:56.400 My parental heritage is one of abandonment, drunkenness, drugs, and jail.

00:56:01.460 My father engrossed himself in crime and vices like his father before him.

00:56:06.020 His grandfather raised him in his home,

00:56:08.560 while his own father laid around in a drug-induced stupor for most of his life.

00:56:13.120 That apple didn't fall from the tree at all.

00:56:15.560 It rotted in place, but one seed was able to fall.

00:56:18.620 Me.

00:56:19.840 My father and mother were never married, and I was born out of wedlock.

00:56:23.760 My birth certificate does not bear his name and he could not be troubled to be there when I came

00:56:28.900 into the world. As a result, I bear my mother's maiden name. Their life was troubled. At times,

00:56:35.200 my father was abusive, physically at some points, but always mentally. He was a master at the art

00:56:41.300 of guilt manipulation. This continued nearly until the day she died of cancer. I was almost four.

00:56:48.020 she was 26. After my mother's death, a short custody battle ensued between my father and my

00:56:55.620 maternal grandparents. At the time, he was a jobless addict and was spurred on by his grandfather to

00:57:02.280 step up to the plate for his child. The judge gave him an ultimatum, if you want your child,

00:57:08.300 get a job and get sober. It never happened, at least the sobriety part. At that point,

00:57:14.320 my grandparents were awarded temporary guardianship of me. It was never contested

00:57:19.440 again. Throughout my childhood years, I would see him on occasion. He would come to our small

00:57:24.960 church on Sunday evenings, sit in the back pew, and give me a hug and a few bucks. That ended

00:57:30.640 when he got arrested for stealing a case of beer from a 7-Eleven. After that, I saw him maybe once

00:57:36.120 a year on my birthday, but that eventually faded as well. The last time I saw my father in the

00:57:42.320 flesh, I was 16. 18 years ago. I was walking home from a friend's house, kicking up some dust on a

00:57:49.240 dirt road, when I heard the screaming. When I looked up, I noticed my father's blue Chevy pickup

00:57:54.200 truck parked in front of my grandparents' house. I did not catch the exchanges. He was screaming at

00:58:00.420 them. They in return. It was one of those surreal moments in my life, a moment that didn't feel

00:58:06.000 real as i made my way up the driveway he stopped looked at me and said there's that bastard don't 0.99

00:58:14.520 you know you're just a bastard those were the last words he ever spoke to me his voice and those 1.00

00:58:21.760 words etched into my mind forever man i mean that sucks yeah that's that's rough why do you think 1.00

00:58:33.580 it's so important for fathers, you know, I was thinking about this in the psalm, I think it's 0.83

00:58:37.460 in the 140s, but one of the psalmist prayers is, set a guard, O Lord, over my lips. One of the

00:58:46.120 things that I'm cognizant of from this story in particular is the need to make sure, gosh,

00:58:54.660 how horrendous to say things like that to people, but we are capable of saying truly horrible things.

00:59:00.620 I'm just curious, that story, Dan, how does it resonate with you?

00:59:03.280 Well, it's the anti-father. 1.00

00:59:05.660 He's calling him a bastard. 1.00

00:59:07.340 Yes, he's saying, you're not mine. 1.00

00:59:09.460 You are worthless. 1.00

00:59:11.040 You are fatherless. 0.99

00:59:13.140 Whereas contrasting with the baptism of Christ,

00:59:16.760 as God the Father declares,

00:59:19.220 this is my son in whom I am well pleased.

00:59:22.980 He is mine.

00:59:24.660 It's a stark contrast.

00:59:25.820 It is the opposite.

00:59:27.900 So Dan, if you were going to give,

00:59:29.260 I want to wrap things up with that story in mind.

00:59:32.240 if you were going to give sort of a summary elevator pitch about why do a father's words

00:59:38.100 matter based on everything that we've talked about, why does it matter that a father's words

00:59:43.460 give life and how can people, what's the takeaway? Yeah. Well, I think in our culture,

00:59:50.420 we're told over and over again, many different ways by many different people to stop being the

00:59:56.280 type of man that we've described in the positive, the man who speaks words of life and not words of

01:00:03.500 death. I mean, we've discussed this before, but displays of virtue and courage that would have

01:00:08.260 been celebrated in the past are now classified as toxic. You have in school, in children's

01:00:14.380 entertainment, girls were celebrated at the expense of degrading the value of boyhood and 1.00

01:00:19.120 masculinity. And many girls have had positive messages and opportunities. They could be anything

01:00:24.340 that they imagined but boys were told they're naughty they need to sit down they need to play

01:00:29.160 nice with the girls to the shame of the boys and in the in the church men's sins are punched at

01:00:34.160 uh like the relentlessness of rocky belbo's face and rocky movies especially with drago yeah yeah

01:00:40.240 oh man that guy took a hammering well and that's that's what's happening when with like the mark

01:00:44.720 driscoll stuff you're just taking punches all the time it's and because it's an acceptable thing

01:00:49.540 It's because it's some place where in our culture it's permissible to just absolutely put a beat down on men with relentlessness.

01:01:00.440 It becomes accessible for pastors to actually be tough somewhere.

01:01:05.500 But I don't want to paint this picture in summarizing as like men are simply just victims of some matriarchal society or dictatorship because it's not the case.

01:01:17.360 men's sins are real they're prevalent men aren't just victims men do wicked deeds they haven't

01:01:23.420 stepped up to take responsibility in this world that's increasingly feminized but the important

01:01:28.040 thing to remember is that you have the approval of the father of god the father yes if you are in 0.77

01:01:33.980 christ he says to you you can stand before my throne with confidence my son and that's very

01:01:41.780 important to remember and then to go and do likewise so when you're interacting with your

01:01:46.520 children. When you are a church father, it's important to say, I am going to have your rod 0.76

01:01:54.340 guide, the rod guide and the law guide, and then I'm going to give you comfort and I'm going to

01:02:00.520 give you rest. And so it's important to have that balance and to speak life into your kids' lives.

01:02:06.640 Yeah, that's great. I think really encouraging, just an encouragement to the guys. Be the

01:02:10.860 Rocky Balboa-type father, not the angry pastor Mark Driscoll in that clip at least, be in the

01:02:19.140 corner for your kids and be a voice of encouragement as you point them in the right direction on their

01:02:25.500 God-given mission. Well, Dan, it's been great talking with you in this episode. We want to

01:02:30.080 encourage our listeners. Festin Alente, make haste slowly.

01:02:40.860 Well, in case you didn't know, we have another King's Hall show called The After Hours, and it's available only to our patrons.

01:02:47.780 We have a great time in The After Hours. I play hype songs, which Brian loves.

01:02:51.340 Sometimes we even talk about Brian's cut. We talk about recent news on X and answer listener questions.

01:02:56.260 Overall, it's a great time, so I'd encourage you to head over to patreon.com slash thekingshall if you'd like to support the show and get some extra content.

The King's Hall - May 26, 2023

＂How Dare You？＂： Why Berating Men Doesn't Work

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