The Megyn Kelly Show - September 14, 2026


Clancy Holdout Juror "Black Man" Bombshell, and the AI "Superintelligence" Gambit, with Jim VandeHei, Mike Allen, and Roy Schwartz | Ep. 1397

"The Double Life of Scott Peterson": The FULL MK Confidential Series Disturbing New Details About Attempted Trump Assassin Thomas Crooks, Emmys Disasters, and Harry and Meghan's Rocky UK Start | Ep. 1398

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 41 minutes

Words per minute

167.52

Word count

16,958

Sentence count

1,126


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
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00:00:30.800 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.
00:00:42.500 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday.
00:00:46.760 We have a great show for you today. We've got to get to the latest on the holdout juror in the
00:00:51.620 Lindsay Clancy case. All right, just before Labor Day, the jurors in the case announced that they
00:00:57.240 were deadlocked and they could not reach a decision on whether 36-year-old Lindsay Clancy
00:01:01.400 was criminally responsible for the 2023 killing of her three children, five-year-old Cora,
00:01:07.900 three-year-old Dawson, and eight-month-old Callan Clancy. Through a series of media interviews,
00:01:14.580 jurors confirmed that the vote was 11 to one to find Clancy not guilty by reason of insanity.
00:01:20.320 And insanity is what we have seen in every corner since that mistrial was declared.
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00:02:40.340 real solutions for real people. I'm going to go through a few chapters of it. I'll start with
00:02:46.820 this one. It happened just this past Friday. It involves Gayle King, who was very, very surprised
00:02:52.740 to learn from juror Paula Devlin, who is, she's the new J-Lo, she thinks. She's seen on camera
00:03:00.460 just as much as J-Lo has been in the past week, really enjoying her two minutes. But she told
00:03:06.900 Gayle King something specific about the holdout jurors identity that Gayle really had to work to
00:03:13.780 grapple with. Watch. I'm curious about the jurors themselves, because we know it was nine women,
00:03:20.140 three men. What was the age range? What was the racial makeup? I haven't heard any of that. What
00:03:24.640 was it um 70 in 70 ish to 22 and um one person of color and then everybody else was white um
00:03:37.480 a lot of the jurors had children uh-huh and one person of color was a person of color a woman or
00:03:44.520 a man a man a man is a holdout juror a person a black man yes a black man is a holdout juror
00:03:54.060 Yes. Well, I have to sit with that for just a second.
00:04:00.180 Why? Why? I genuinely don't get it. You presumed that anybody who would be willing to find her
00:04:12.440 guilty after she murdered her three children would be white because all black men vote to
00:04:21.320 acquit, Gayle, someone might accuse you of racism. You better watch it. It's a racist attitude
00:04:28.520 to take a group, an entire group of people, and assume they vote one way or another based on skin
00:04:35.860 color. But even a black man, Gayle, can be a thinking, individual, sentient person who comes
00:04:44.600 up with his own viewpoints on life, liberty and criminality in a court of law. And if this man
00:04:53.000 hadn't been capable of doing that, presumably he would not have been selected as a juror that I'm
00:04:58.760 sorry, but that's just so bizarre. Like what? What is she? Of course, a black man wouldn't be the one
00:05:06.800 we've all grown to hate. Obviously, when I'm thinking of who do we all hate, I'm thinking it
00:05:13.140 must be a white person. I mean, that's really what she seems to be saying there. It's a very
00:05:16.960 strange reaction. Why? I hope she does think on it and reports back on CBS Morning Show about
00:05:25.240 why it was so difficult for her to understand. Okay, but Gayle King is the least of our problems
00:05:32.000 today. NBC Boston has lost its ever-loving mind. NBC Boston could now get off if it were to commit
00:05:41.220 a crime on a defense of insanity because clearly they've lost it over there. Who is running that
00:05:48.680 joint? Like NBC corporate must step in and rein in it's out of control station because they just
00:05:59.980 did a, I mean, a full on investigation into the holdout juror. They, they investigated this guy
00:06:10.060 like they were looking for O.J. in the white bronco.
00:06:13.580 Like, they gave this guy a proctology exam over the weekend,
00:06:19.100 and they are so proud about doing this to a juror.
00:06:23.820 Wait a minute.
00:06:24.860 Is the juror accused of killing his three children?
00:06:29.220 Is that, like, no.
00:06:31.260 Wait a minute.
00:06:31.920 Why are we doing investigations of jurors?
00:06:36.160 That's really, this whole segment should end right there.
00:06:38.860 don't investigate jurors bye and back to our other news like that's really where i'd love to end this
00:06:48.120 but because they've lost their fucking minds i've got to tell you what they've done because now we
00:06:54.440 need accountability for nbc boston i mean very very badly and they're not the only ones so they
00:07:01.740 They decided, really, truly, it would be a great idea to completely upend this man's life.
00:07:09.800 And though they gave it the patina of confidentiality because they didn't report his name,
00:07:15.120 they reported enough about him that it's very easy to figure out who it is.
00:07:20.100 And the Internet has already done its part.
00:07:22.320 The name is everywhere.
00:07:23.520 We will not be repeating it here.
00:07:26.000 But they, of course, released enough info that any amateur sleuth who's familiar with the Internet could figure it out.
00:07:32.980 And they did and query whether that was intended all along and what they found.
00:07:38.380 And they really want you to know that this, again, juror, this juror who's he's done nothing wrong.
00:07:47.740 He voted to find her guilty. That's his sin.
00:07:50.760 It's not like there was tumult in the jury room and he punched one of the ladies in the face.
00:07:55.540 Like, OK, then we might be like, who the hell is this guy?
00:07:58.440 How did he get on?
00:07:58.940 That's not what happened.
00:08:00.640 What we heard from these nutcases last week was he was arrogant.
00:08:06.460 OK, does that mean your life gets ruined after you sit on jury duty?
00:08:10.860 He wouldn't listen.
00:08:12.300 He crossed his arms.
00:08:14.080 Is that what did it?
00:08:14.920 Your life gets ruined if you don't listen to the weird hens across the table from you?
00:08:20.320 insisting that you have it wrong.
00:08:23.480 They're very upset over this crazy soundbite that we played last week.
00:08:30.400 Oh, I don't know if we have it, but it's the one where the juror is like,
00:08:34.420 he really couldn't get over the fact that she viciously murdered her three children.
00:08:38.740 That's this guy's sin.
00:08:39.960 So what they found at NBC Boston is that this evil, evil juror
00:08:45.880 had domestic violence allegations against him in his past,
00:08:52.060 including a 2021 criminal charge that was dropped,
00:08:57.500 but there was a criminal charge brought after his 13-year-old nephew called 911 on him.
00:09:04.640 And when the cops arrived at the house,
00:09:07.260 the nephew allegedly told them that this juror had grabbed his wife's throat
00:09:14.000 and had thrown her into a dresser.
00:09:17.020 NBC Boston reports the couple is now divorced
00:09:20.000 and that the criminal charge, as I said,
00:09:22.300 was later dismissed.
00:09:24.920 The station also reports that this holdout altogether.
00:09:28.640 Now, juror later had a restraining order
00:09:32.500 taken out against him by the very same nephew
00:09:34.720 who is now older when he sought a restraining order.
00:09:37.780 By my math, he would have been 19 when he sought it.
00:09:44.000 the same guy who had called 9-1-1 against him years earlier, and that that restraining order appears to still be active.
00:09:50.900 So what we have is a juror with an allegation, uncharged, several years ago of allegedly hurting his wife.
00:10:01.460 The wife didn't testify. The wife said she was afraid she was going to lose custody.
00:10:05.540 That does happen all the time in domestic violence cases.
00:10:08.040 I'm not saying he's guilty, but I'm saying that pattern would fit.
00:10:12.700 nonetheless, it was many years ago, I think six, six years ago. And the only current charge
00:10:22.280 is the nephew alleging, hold on, that he got a restraining order recently after the juror
00:10:33.820 pushed him to the ground and repeatedly punched him in the face. The teen wrote in his affidavit
00:10:38.720 that his uncle then said, you ruined my blanking life, and this is a reference to what had happened
00:10:44.300 six years earlier when the nephew called the police on him after he allegedly beat his wife,
00:10:51.100 and that the juror said, you've had this coming your way for a long time. That restraining order
00:10:56.180 was still active when the juror was selected for the Clancy trial and listened to the evidence.
00:11:01.760 Now, there is a question about whether somebody with an active restraining order against them, never mind the earlier allegation, it was just an allegation that resulted in the charge that that was dropped, would be bounced by any prosecutor or defense attorney in a case like this.
00:11:27.000 I don't think it actually prohibits you from being able to serve, although I'm not sure about that, to be honest.
00:11:34.120 I'd have to go back and check the ethical rules.
00:11:36.700 But an act of restraining order, to me, seems like something that would lead one side or the other to bounce you.
00:11:43.660 Probably the prosecution, because they'd say he's anti-law enforcement.
00:11:48.140 In this particular case, you would have been wrong if you placed that bet, but whatever, I'm just game playing it out in my head.
00:11:54.940 there could be. The NBC Boston legal analyst said, I don't see how they would have allowed him to
00:12:01.640 become a member of this jury. And that's a Boston chief legal analyst, Michael Coyne.
00:12:07.440 So it doesn't appear that even he, who seems to be, I would assume, more familiar with the Boston
00:12:12.660 rules of court there, is saying it would have been a must-bounce situation, but rather in the
00:12:19.380 prerogative of the lawyers. Now, they also are reporting that the standard juror questionnaire
00:12:25.280 in Massachusetts will ask if someone's been arrested, charged with a crime, or has been
00:12:31.320 served with a court order. Of course, we know that. And that those boxes should have been
00:12:36.400 checked by this juror. But there's a thing with juror questionnaires. You see, they're not public
00:12:41.740 records. And so it's unclear if the document in question is still available. It would be up to
00:12:49.060 counsel to hold on to them or destroy them. So I imagine the counsel has them because as we just
00:12:56.560 went through on MK Confidential, which is our new crime series, it's been airing Monday through
00:13:00.640 Friday at 9 p.m. on both YouTube and podcast. We just went through this in the Mark Garrago's
00:13:06.560 representation of Scott Peterson, where what happened in that case was one of the jurors,
00:13:12.000 strawberry shortcake, Rochelle Neese, she found him guilty. After the fact, she was having real
00:13:18.580 like emotional problems. And her counselor told her to start writing letters to Scott Peterson
00:13:23.520 and Jill. It was a bad advice. So she did. She wrote something like 17 letters and he started
00:13:31.680 writing her back and then somebody did a story on it. And now suddenly the defense lawyers for
00:13:38.120 Scott Peterson and the appellate team got very interested in this woman. She was admitting to
00:13:41.780 all sorts of issues in her past, psychological and otherwise. And now they want to know more
00:13:47.480 about Rochelle. And I believe in the course of that, either in those letters, or she said
00:13:52.300 something in those letters that made them go check. And it turned out she had been the victim
00:13:55.900 of a crime. She had allegedly been harassed by her boyfriend's ex-girlfriend and had taken out
00:14:02.440 a restraining order on her while Rochelle was pregnant. So here's a pregnant woman who's
00:14:08.200 suffering the threat of violence indirectly as a result of her boyfriend, you know, the boyfriend's
00:14:14.660 ex-girlfriend. But, you know, you can see the parallels and why potentially a defense lawyer
00:14:19.920 for Scott Peterson might not want her on the jury, but it wasn't disclosed by her. This turned out
00:14:25.700 in this turned into a juror issue like misconduct issue that is still open in the case. It's still
00:14:32.220 not totally resolved. The Innocence Project of L.A. has taken up the matter and is trying to press
00:14:36.600 that one on appeal. So not disclosing your connections with law enforcement along those
00:14:45.640 lines can be very problematic. I don't know whether this guy disclosed or didn't, but the
00:14:51.040 fact that we're even discussing this, not because the juror revealed something potentially problematic,
00:14:59.060 et cetera, but because the other jurors didn't like his verdict is insane and deeply amoral.
00:15:08.020 And we should not be doing this, NBC Boston. We should not be doing this. And by the way,
00:15:15.080 the remedy in such a case would typically be like, let's say this jury had found her
00:15:21.720 not guilty by reason of insanity. And this guy, well, I guess we'll have to go with his verdict.
00:15:29.060 He wanted a guilty. Let's say this guy had convinced everybody to vote guilty. He had turned all the jurors his way and they all voted guilty. But now it turns out he's got an issue in his past. You could potentially, I mean, the remedy would be the Kevin Reddington would be in there trying to overturn the verdict and get a new trial.
00:15:49.300 Well, that's the road we're headed down anyway. So what exactly do the NBC Bostons of the world want to have happen here? That that retroactively they're going to nullify this juror and come up with the jury? That's that's not how this works.
00:16:07.160 I do not know of a case in which they've resurrected a dead verdict, a verdict that was never handed down nor reached thanks to one juror.
00:16:15.660 And now with all the jurors back at home, because.
00:16:19.920 Like what?
00:16:21.460 The typical remedy had this guy been struck from the jury during the course of the deliberations would be to then replace him with an alternate and to start at square one, not to just agree to a verdict with 11 jurors.
00:16:34.220 The prosecution would not have agreed to that.
00:16:36.600 Though I think they might have been able to if if Lindsey Clancy's lawyer did.
00:16:40.960 So in any event, what is this all toward just to smear him, just to show that the people who supported him are bad people who they were like this one guy who outed his name in his Twitter post?
00:16:53.460 It's like people have been lauding him as a hero or whatever.
00:16:58.000 OK, so like obviously that was a reference to the fact that he stood up for the guilt of this woman and nobody knew anything about like as if people knew all this about him.
00:17:08.220 But it's irrelevant. The point is, I call him a hero. I stand by it.
00:17:12.220 It's it wasn't in his personal life when none of us knew anything about his personal life.
00:17:16.080 It was for standing the line in response to that 11 person band of shrews who tried to bully him out of what we believed was the right judgment.
00:17:28.520 So this is just out of control, but there's more.
00:17:30.660 OK, I'm not done.
00:17:33.060 Here's the NBC Boston report in part.
00:17:36.100 You can just watch them reporting it.
00:17:38.260 It goes on this report.
00:17:39.820 It's like it goes on.
00:17:41.220 But here's a bit.
00:17:41.720 sod 18 okay sir do you have any issue complying with the order that you stay away from and have
00:17:46.800 no contact directly or indirectly with the alleged victim in this case and also that you're not
00:17:51.040 abused this person you're listening to audio the mbc 10 investigators obtained from brockton
00:17:55.900 district court in september 2021 that's when the holdout juror in the lindsey clancy case faced a
00:18:01.880 criminal charge for assaulting his wife according to this police report the juror's 13 year old
00:18:07.260 nephew called 911 after seeing his uncle grab his wife by the throat and throw her into a dresser.
00:18:12.520 The report says the juror's mom repeatedly screamed your evil as police arrested him.
00:18:18.000 Court records show the couple divorced after the incident and the criminal charge was eventually
00:18:22.420 dismissed. The ex-wife told me this week she didn't want to testify in the case because she
00:18:27.140 was worried about losing custody of her daughter. Last year, that same teenage nephew took out this
00:18:32.640 restraining order after he says the juror pushed him to the ground and repeatedly punched him in
00:18:37.580 the face the teen wrote that his uncle then said you ruined my life for calling the police
00:18:42.340 and added you've had this coming your way for a long time
00:18:45.780 that restraining order was still active when the juror was selected for the lindsey clancy trial
00:18:57.760 Okay. Now it's not just this alleged domestic violence. They also really want you to know
00:19:06.040 that the holdout juror didn't pay his rent. This is so effed up. NBC 10 Boston investigators also
00:19:16.520 learned that the holdout juror has not paid the monthly rent at his home since last March.
00:19:23.960 He is a rent evader.
00:19:26.540 A rent evader.
00:19:27.360 Aha!
00:19:31.600 Again, the irony to all of this is had all of this been disclosed on his juror questionnaire,
00:19:37.340 I guarantee you it would have been the prosecution that would have bounced him
00:19:41.080 and Kevin Reddington would have said, I'm good with this juror.
00:19:44.200 He flouts the law.
00:19:45.760 He doesn't seem to think much of, you know, abiding by certain serious laws.
00:19:50.960 neither does my client he's good and it would have been the prosecution that said
00:19:56.000 no this is not somebody who on paper we believe in um and honestly it's like in any other
00:20:04.580 circumstance had this guy been holding out for a not guilty and the 11 wanted guilty
00:20:11.000 the gale kings of the world would be standing up to say how dare you how dare you harass this poor
00:20:18.740 black juror who you know you don't you don't you don't know his lived experience you don't
00:20:23.680 understand how he might see the way law enforcement conducted this investigation that he's entitled
00:20:29.500 to draw a decision based on his own conscience and lived experience f you right but now gail's
00:20:38.160 got to think about this because it's the it's the black guy who wanted to vote with the man
00:20:45.440 It's a very confusing situation.
00:20:47.720 And now it gets more confusing for the Gayle Kings of the world because not only that,
00:20:52.120 but now the black guy is going to get harassed, is in the process of getting harassed by a bunch of whites at NBC Boston.
00:20:59.200 And she doesn't feel like she can quite stand up for him.
00:21:03.020 The BLM brigade is like, oh, I'm not sure if we're for this guy.
00:21:09.380 He voted with the man.
00:21:12.700 The man is whitey.
00:21:14.460 Like Tim Cruz, the DA, we're against him.
00:21:17.760 What did he do?
00:21:19.760 They don't generally like it when, you know, strong black individuals stand up for themselves
00:21:27.480 in a way that doesn't pursue or defend liberal dogma.
00:21:32.080 And the current liberal dogma is that you're some sort of a fascist if you think Lindsay
00:21:37.260 Clancy is a murderer who should go to jail instead of the mental institution.
00:21:42.260 Okay, here's more.
00:21:44.360 As jurors deliberated last week, the landlord secured a job.
00:21:48.000 This is brand new.
00:21:49.580 It's fresh.
00:21:50.640 The rent evasion is fresh.
00:21:52.920 As jurors deliberated, the landlord secured a judgment of more than $12,000 in unpaid rent.
00:21:59.480 He's a scofflaw, I tell you, and is moving forward with an eviction.
00:22:04.700 Housing court records show.
00:22:05.920 They pulled the housing court records to find out if he, how, how, how late is he?
00:22:14.040 How, how much in arrears?
00:22:15.600 How many months and how much?
00:22:18.200 12,000, I tell you.
00:22:19.920 And they've moved to evict people.
00:22:23.120 How can we possibly let the judgment stand?
00:22:25.120 What judgment?
00:22:25.840 The mistrial.
00:22:26.940 What?
00:22:27.620 Wait, wait, the, the, the little dog caught its tail.
00:22:32.520 When the NBC10 Boston investigators contacted the holdout jurors, family members, this is too far.
00:22:45.000 I'm laughing just because it's so absurd, people.
00:22:48.280 When have you ever heard of such a thing?
00:22:51.040 Like, again, they're treating him like he got into the jury room and then set off a grenade, like lit a pipe bomb and hurt several jurors.
00:23:01.900 That's when you contact the family members, you check the housing records, you pull up restraining orders, you contact the aggrieved nephew.
00:23:10.880 It is all hands on deck, people.
00:23:13.400 No, that did not happen.
00:23:16.340 They said he sat with his arms crossed and he was arrogant, said the chef, who, by the way, now we find out has her own criminal allegations in her past.
00:23:28.260 Let's give them all a proctology exam.
00:23:31.080 Come on. It's good for the goose. They contacted his family members who said he had been estranged
00:23:41.400 with them since the incident with his nephew. None of them knew about his involvement with
00:23:46.440 the Clancy trial. One family member described him as a narcissist. Oh, that just dovetails
00:23:52.940 perfectly with what the bitter hen said, who she believes never should have served as a juror in
00:23:58.220 such an important case. Oh, who was that family member? Could it have been the ex-wife who hates
00:24:03.240 his guts? We should disclose that, NBC Boston. If you're talking to the embittered ex-wife,
00:24:09.560 she should not be, quote, family member. Should be more specific than this. In the wake of those
00:24:15.100 revelations, their legal analyst said he thinks the holdout jurors questionnaire will have to
00:24:21.620 be reviewed by prosecutors to see if the information the juror put down was truthful.
00:24:26.040 Ready for this?
00:24:28.140 What happened?
00:24:29.500 What happened when we found out that there was a juror holding out?
00:24:33.600 We were all together.
00:24:35.020 Was it not this past Thursday, but the one before?
00:24:38.420 Right before Labor Day.
00:24:40.140 And what did Kevin Reddington do?
00:24:42.380 He went to that judge when the jury was out of the courtroom, and he said,
00:24:46.480 I believe that juror lied to you.
00:24:49.680 He lied to you when he said he could follow the law and be fair.
00:24:52.980 and committed a crime.
00:24:55.500 That's what he basically accused him of.
00:24:57.580 He said he lied to you under oath.
00:25:00.280 Now, you don't need a law degree to know that that's perjury.
00:25:03.040 And generally, people understand that's a felony.
00:25:06.360 It's not just any old crime.
00:25:07.960 That's the F word kind of crime.
00:25:10.160 That juror was not there to defend himself.
00:25:12.300 It was a despicable thing to do.
00:25:14.520 But Kevin Reddington did it
00:25:16.560 before accusing him of violating the Americans with Disabilities Act.
00:25:20.300 It's all hands on deck to try to get that juror off the case.
00:25:25.600 And now you have the NBC10 Boston legal analyst pointing out that if the jury, if the juror lied on his questionnaire, it's a crime.
00:25:42.800 It's a crime.
00:25:44.400 Again, like, I'm actually not clear whether there, whether it would have made it impossible
00:25:51.640 for him to serve the fact that he had a restraining order against him.
00:25:54.440 But now we're talking about something else.
00:25:56.300 Did he lie on the jury questionnaire?
00:25:59.880 And back to the Scott Peterson example, when Rochelle Neese ultimately did get brought
00:26:05.300 in, the appellate court dismissed 18 of Scott Peterson's 19 appellate arguments, except
00:26:12.380 for the one about her.
00:26:13.560 and said he does deserve a hearing on whether Rochelle Neese lied on that jury questionnaire
00:26:19.000 in order to get on this jury, which would be grounds for a new trial.
00:26:23.200 So the appellate court didn't reverse the judgment, but said to the trial court,
00:26:26.580 you got to drag this gal back in there.
00:26:28.020 You got to have a hearing.
00:26:29.120 So they gave Rochelle Neese immunity, meaning we promise we're not going to prosecute you
00:26:35.320 for perjury because you did not answer your jury questionnaire honestly.
00:26:39.880 you put down that you had no active court proceedings or court orders, et cetera, that
00:26:45.480 were active, and you did. You had this restraining order against your boyfriend's ex-girlfriend.
00:26:50.260 So she had to be given immunity to give testimony on that. So now this guy's coming right out and
00:26:57.020 saying, in fact, it is a crime not to do so, not to be truthful on your jury questionnaire.
00:27:04.220 So now that is not once, but at least twice that some poor schlep who'd probably rather be doing anything other than jury duty has been threatened with a crime, threatened with criminal prosecution potentially for sitting his ass in the doldrums of jury duty around these other idiots getting your bland turkey sandwich for lunch every day.
00:27:33.940 in your uncomfortable chairs and sitting around with a bunch of people who probably can't stand
00:27:40.760 you. How is anybody going to serve jury duty after this? How is any legal case not going to
00:27:51.500 get jurors who say, I'm out. I can't do it. I don't want to have happen to me what happened
00:27:57.780 to this guy in the Lindsay Clancy case. I can't be fair. They already do that. You know, Matt
00:28:02.840 Walsh was online. He was making a good point. He's like, people lie to get out of jury duty,
00:28:05.860 not to get into it. I mean, there are some cases that people will lie to get onto. Do you really
00:28:10.820 think this guy had an agenda? It's much more likely to me that the other jurors, the hens,
00:28:17.360 lied to get on the jury so they could save Lindsay. And there's evidence that that was
00:28:22.580 their attitude because they wanted to create social change. In fact, while I'm mentioning it,
00:28:26.920 Why don't we go there?
00:28:28.340 Here's the jury, the juror, Paula Devlin.
00:28:32.340 This is the new J-Lo.
00:28:35.900 And this is what she thought her mission was.
00:28:40.200 News for you, Paula.
00:28:41.580 This isn't it.
00:28:42.880 You're supposed to just judge this case for this defendant and not worry about working out your woke agenda on America while you're in the jury box.
00:28:51.740 But you do you. We're going to review all the jurors behaviors. You're fair game.
00:28:57.500 Here's thought twenty five when she sat with CBS Saturday morning.
00:29:00.960 We knew that this was a turning point and this would be something that could change something to make it better for other women in the future, for other families.
00:29:14.840 You know, justice for those children is this never happening again.
00:29:19.000 Okay. So that's what you needed. You needed justice so that justice to you was this never
00:29:28.380 happening again. No woman who kills her child should ever be charged, I guess, according to
00:29:34.540 Paula Devlin's rules. I object. I'm here to say on behalf of the male black juror with the domestic
00:29:42.660 violence allegations against him and the non-juror white woman sitting here at this anchor desk,
00:29:49.640 I object. I will not go along with your system. I'm of the mind that if you kill anyone,
00:29:58.500 especially your child, you should sit your ass in jail for the rest of your life.
00:30:04.760 That's my back of the envelope take on our mission when someone kills her child. That's
00:30:11.920 That's where I am. Paula. But, you know, you were specifically asked on voir dire if you could put your personal views aside to adjudicate this case and decided based just on the evidence, not on the social impact that you're likely to have.
00:30:29.160 So how dare you throw stones at this holdout juror because you didn't have your mission right either, madam.
00:30:38.700 And I say either only if her allegations against him proved to be correct, which was that he believed that he had a reasonable doubt but would not apply it, which I don't believe.
00:30:48.580 I don't believe that at all.
00:30:50.360 So now you've got this Sue O'Connell.
00:30:53.560 All right. Sue O'Connell is the woman at NBC 10 Boston with whom the jurors sat down. And she she's the one who's on the human rights campaign board. She's been super enthusiastic about this report. She's thrilled that they've given the proctology exam to the holdout juror.
00:31:10.380 She enthusiastically tweeted about it, saying, let's see, domestic violence allegations raise questions about the holdout juror on the Lindsay Clancy trial.
00:31:22.300 NBC Boston exclusive with an exclamation point.
00:31:26.740 She also alluded in a tweet to the fact that tips she received are what helped lead to this story.
00:31:34.880 So she's got a lot of questions for this juror.
00:31:37.980 She really wants to know everything about him.
00:31:39.540 I'm just curious, like when she had the chance, did she really press the jurors who she did sit down with?
00:31:46.100 Did she really go after them to figure out like what what what was in their past?
00:31:51.620 What what what secrets did they have?
00:31:53.920 Like what qualifications did they have or were they hiding in connection with their jury service?
00:32:00.220 Let's see.
00:32:00.900 Sot 20.
00:32:02.860 What was the thing that Kevin Reddington said that you found the funniest?
00:32:06.740 and were and were you able to separate sort of the affability of kevin reddington to the case
00:32:15.120 he was fun to watch sue uh sue there's been a dereliction of duty on the journalistic front
00:32:22.880 i'm sorry sister by the way sue looks like a copy of rachel maddow plus 15 years if you're
00:32:29.120 wondering looking for a visual of sue so this is the gang that's trying to ruin this man's life
00:32:36.600 And again, not just any man, but but a black man. You're not allowed to do that in America.
00:32:43.120 OK, just we've learned over the past six years, that's definitely a no no.
00:32:47.100 Now, Gail wasn't the only juror, by the way, or only person to figure that it was had to be a white person holding out.
00:32:54.840 Here is another liberal woman who admitted she was shocked as well.
00:32:59.300 And take a listen to the turn of phrase that this gal uses in assessing the situation.
00:33:05.380 It's not 23.
00:33:06.860 The holdout juror in the Lindsay Clancy trial was a black man.
00:33:09.440 And I'm not going to share any opinions because I'm not a person of color.
00:33:14.020 I am a non-practicing white.
00:33:15.680 I'm surprised.
00:33:16.880 It changes the landscape of the conversation a little bit.
00:33:19.760 And I think a lot of us were assuming that it was a white man.
00:33:24.160 A non-practicing white?
00:33:26.460 Like, what does that mean?
00:33:30.060 You're a good dancer and you like spicy food?
00:33:32.620 I don't.
00:33:33.440 What do you mean?
00:33:35.380 I was today years old when I learned that that was a thing, a non-practicing white.
00:33:40.060 I'm going to have my kids put that down on their college application essays.
00:33:43.420 I'm like, can we check the box if we're white but we're non-practicing?
00:33:48.480 We've eschewed all whiteness.
00:33:51.680 We've distanced ourselves.
00:33:52.900 We've disavowed our whiteness, and therefore, we're other.
00:33:56.580 Can we check the box?
00:33:57.500 I feel like that's—thank you for letting us know that that's an option.
00:34:01.180 But the race thing did rear its ugly head over, you'll be shocked to learn, on Oprah Winfrey's special coverage.
00:34:12.000 You know what's so galling? Oprah Winfrey is a billionaire thanks to this country, okay?
00:34:19.200 And by the way, when she was coming up, it was more white than ever, right?
00:34:23.840 It's less white today than it was when Oprah made her billion dollars plus off of the American people.
00:34:29.400 But she's extremely anti now.
00:34:33.060 And we figured that out because when it was between Hillary and Barack Obama, she had to choose.
00:34:37.920 Do I go for the woman or do I go for the black man?
00:34:41.000 And she chose race.
00:34:42.440 That was obvious.
00:34:43.280 She chose race.
00:34:44.920 She was largely responsible for Barack Obama getting the nomination.
00:34:48.560 And now that she's already got her billions, she's leaned into the whole racial thing hard, hard.
00:34:55.380 And so she decides to hold on Oprah Winfrey.
00:34:57.740 special on
00:35:00.880 cracking myself up on this verdict and of course they played the race card when she went to
00:35:11.840 ob-gyn dr camila phillips on the verdict and what what the jury like that what the 11 jurors
00:35:21.840 were saying about Lindsay Clancy, SOT 27. I hope this never happens again. We know
00:35:28.320 statistically it really will. It will. I want us to have the same passion for people who don't
00:35:35.820 look like Lindsay, who don't have her same access. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who don't have her same access
00:35:49.160 and education her melanin her privilege there are women of color sitting around this country
00:35:56.680 in prisons for this same thing that we've never heard of and i just want to remind us to have
00:36:01.840 the pink shirts and the energy for them as well black voices matter except the guy who is the
00:36:12.320 holdout juror. There are exceptions to the rule. Case by case. Well, no, liberal black voices
00:36:20.660 matter. Okay. Liberal black voices that vote the way we want them to vote on cases that are
00:36:26.500 important to us. Got it. Are we clear on the rules? There was a mother daughter who were on
00:36:33.400 set with Oprah and there was a difference of opinion. The mother was more empathetic towards
00:36:39.960 lindsey clancy the daughter was more in line with the holdout juror and oprah tisk tisked her watch
00:36:48.420 you know i said her i think so she hasn't gone through it she's not a mother so she doesn't
00:36:53.340 know how it feels to have a child and you disagree i disagree i am i feel like i'm not
00:36:59.800 with the majority right now i do believe she's a murderer um i'm all you've heard today you still
00:37:06.220 I'm an advocate for mental health.
00:37:07.820 Yeah.
00:37:08.260 It's just unfortunate.
00:37:10.060 And she's so quick to say it.
00:37:11.680 She's like, you've never had a baby.
00:37:13.380 You don't understand what it's like to go through all the hormonal shifts.
00:37:16.980 But I just feel as though these were not instant deaths.
00:37:21.820 They weren't gunshots to the head.
00:37:23.440 She was there strangling her kids three times.
00:37:28.940 You're telling me, like, even after the first time, she couldn't snap out of it.
00:37:32.400 You're watching the life leave your kids' eyes, you know?
00:37:35.540 so I know I hear everybody's opinions and god bless mothers but at the same I just don't
00:37:43.100 understand how we can empathize with somebody that they weren't strangers they were her kids
00:37:49.680 right on but you heard Oprah even now after everything you've heard yeah even now after
00:37:58.800 all you've heard today yeah that's my opinion Oprah really don't want to hear from the childless
00:38:04.640 billionaire about how mothers should have the right to kill their children.
00:38:10.120 I've given you the evidence. You sat here and that's your takeaway. I've worked for an hour
00:38:16.280 to indoctrinate you into my thinking. What the hell? This is amazing that people are still
00:38:22.680 even watching her or participating in her little round tables, which are incredibly agenda driven.
00:38:28.620 I can't believe I ever listened to this person as someone who I allowed to influence my thinking.
00:38:35.300 It's like, thank God I got older and smarter.
00:38:39.840 Or is it that she got more biased when she got her billions?
00:38:43.760 Taking thoughts on that.
00:38:46.540 Now, of course, as I mentioned, thanks to NBC, the internet found this guy's name.
00:38:53.920 Tootsweet.
00:38:54.840 Oh, by the way, Sue, I mentioned the reporter, Sue.
00:38:57.040 Not only was the human rights campaign and all that stuff, but she was big, big, big into vaccines and masks.
00:39:03.260 If you're not wearing a mask, you are anti-economy and so on.
00:39:07.700 All the LGBTQ stuff.
00:39:09.080 You get you get the number of the gal who broke this story with the other jurors and was so enthusiastic about NBC Boston breaking the story about the jurors past.
00:39:20.260 Yay! Exclamation point.
00:39:21.860 We did it based on tips to her, as it looks.
00:39:24.920 So due to this report, they found the juror's name and someone named Talkin Strohs first released it online, fail.
00:39:36.260 Then there was somebody named Aiden Kearney, who goes by at Dr. Turtle Boy, who posted it.
00:39:45.060 He's a Massachusetts blogger, so presumably has some connections in Massachusetts.
00:39:50.400 But in any event, he outed the name as well and really wanted you to know that while it's not illegal for anyone to report factual information about a juror in a high profile case, it is illegal to lie on a juror form.
00:40:05.320 Hello, more criminal threats for the holdout juror.
00:40:09.800 And he posted more about the domestic violence allegations, et cetera.
00:40:16.700 he um also okay yeah oh he points out that the man is a Haitian immigrant okay he's an immigrant
00:40:26.200 I thought the left doesn't want us talking about that you the hey let me make clear leftist dogma
00:40:34.180 immigrants especially the ones from Haiti have only brought goodness and wellness and justice
00:40:41.380 into our communities, all right?
00:40:43.460 They made that very clear to J.D. Vance
00:40:45.380 when he had the nerve to object to what had happened
00:40:47.740 in Springfield, Ohio.
00:40:49.840 Stop it.
00:40:51.000 You don't point out that he's a Haitian immigrant
00:40:53.000 in a negative way.
00:40:54.840 This is racist.
00:40:58.280 It's very fun to see these rules get turned around.
00:41:01.740 Okay, then the internet,
00:41:03.420 because it does what it's going to do,
00:41:05.180 turned around and started bringing up
00:41:06.800 this blogger's background.
00:41:10.340 They talked about some allegation of witness tampering that he faced.
00:41:16.860 He was arrested on these charges.
00:41:20.000 He argued in court that he was exercising his First Amendment rights.
00:41:23.820 Then there was allegedly an assault charge.
00:41:28.100 A woman claiming to be his ex-girlfriend says she was given a subpoena related to the investigation.
00:41:34.420 They agreed that he would go to her apartment to talk about it during that time.
00:41:38.440 She claims he threatened to release personal information about her as well as explicit photos of her and ultimately pushed her into a couch.
00:41:44.800 The domestic assault and battery charge was later dropped, but other related witness intimidation and wiretapping legal proceedings continue to wind through Massachusetts courts.
00:41:53.940 So you see this is the doxer getting doxed with information about his past because it's never ending.
00:42:02.820 It's just never ending.
00:42:03.840 We're just going to go down to the bottom of the barrel.
00:42:05.180 the last person to comment on this, will have their information all out there.
00:42:13.160 Everyone's getting the proctology exam.
00:42:16.040 Bend over and say thank you.
00:42:18.180 All caused by the evil juror who did not go along with those ninnies on the jury.
00:42:24.580 This is getting so nuts.
00:42:27.780 So nuts.
00:42:29.200 Now, this Kelly Farina, she's the one.
00:42:31.600 He just couldn't get past the fact that he vicious, that she viciously killed her three children.
00:42:37.640 She was the chef, this Kelly Farina.
00:42:41.240 Now, the same guy who just got doxed, the doxer who got doxed, he reported on her, too,
00:42:48.280 saying that she's been previously charged with assault and battery, but it was dismissed eight days after she was arraigned.
00:42:54.360 There's no police report available.
00:42:56.100 So just keep it going.
00:42:57.360 Just keep it going forever.
00:42:58.840 However, she also appears to have been an activist, he reports, that she was part of an activist group focused on freeing Karen Reed, who was a woman charged with murder in Massachusetts.
00:43:09.980 She previously posted in a free Karen Reed Facebook group.
00:43:14.400 Karen Reed was acquitted last year in the death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe.
00:43:19.360 And she posted over an out page, Massachusetts jury did their rightful duty today.
00:43:25.220 Karen's free.
00:43:27.180 So how did she get picked for the jury?
00:43:30.700 She's an agenda-driven person.
00:43:32.420 I mean, if we're going to, like, go revisit.
00:43:35.320 See what a hornet's nest we've opened here?
00:43:38.420 This could go on forever.
00:43:41.420 Newsflash.
00:43:41.980 There are no perfect, pristine, absolutely upstanding, with absolutely no sins on their record jurors.
00:43:55.160 There aren't.
00:43:56.180 Good luck finding your next jury pool, if that's what you expect.
00:44:00.960 I mean, it's just, it's really kind of crazy.
00:44:03.360 And one last note for you.
00:44:04.760 Deb Reddington, who's married to Kevin, she's married to the defense attorney.
00:44:08.240 She decided to weigh in on the NBC Boston reporting, tweeting, shocked, in all caps.
00:44:15.500 Holdout juror is a criminal and a squatter.
00:44:19.480 Do you believe this?
00:44:21.480 Amazing.
00:44:22.240 So she's, it's sarcasm.
00:44:23.700 She's not shocked.
00:44:25.420 Now, Deb, how on earth might we have predicted that this juror had some issues?
00:44:34.000 Who was in charge of selecting the jury?
00:44:37.740 Let me think.
00:44:41.380 Oh, wait.
00:44:43.140 We know, don't we?
00:44:45.100 It was the guy on the other side of the pillow from you.
00:44:48.520 Kev.
00:44:49.220 It was Kev.
00:44:49.940 um and by the way this person tweeted out follow or a follow of hers wrote did they pull the
00:44:58.020 criminal records of every juror if not this looks like targeting and it's repulsive and then deb
00:45:04.360 writes i'm not sure julie i saw it on the news well if it's if it's on the news deb then made
00:45:09.740 her x feed private real courage real courage deb it's amazing because there are rules against jury
00:45:15.220 intimidation. But only when the trial is going on. Only when the trial is going on. Once the jurors
00:45:22.020 have done their service, I guess it's a feeding frenzy. It's all hands on deck. And the names
00:45:28.560 haven't even been officially released. They're being held in confidentiality for two weeks post
00:45:33.300 verdict. So the names haven't even come out yet. Not that anybody has any interest in any name
00:45:37.440 other than the one. And frankly, I have no interest in any name, including the one. I don't
00:45:42.780 really give a shit about Kelly Farina's alleged arrest or whatever. Who cares? If we do this to
00:45:48.500 every juror, again, we're never going to have juries. And there's not a more fundamental
00:45:54.200 post in the fence of American jurisprudence. You have to have juries, impartial juries of one's
00:46:03.700 peers. And if you start chilling people's willingness to serve even more than it's chilled
00:46:09.400 by the inherent nastiness of service,
00:46:13.180 you're never going to have that.
00:46:14.820 This is extremely damaging and bad for America.
00:46:20.220 Okay, before we go,
00:46:23.000 I do want to tell you there's yet another case
00:46:26.100 in the news of a mother allegedly killing her own children.
00:46:31.180 Here we go again.
00:46:33.560 This is what many of us have been worried about
00:46:35.580 around the Lindsay Clancy glorification.
00:46:38.180 The woman's name is Jeanette McOsland, A-U-S-L-A-N-D.
00:46:42.620 This is via the Boston Globe.
00:46:44.960 This reporting goes back to April.
00:46:47.260 They found the children's bodies in her Wellesley home the night of April 24th
00:46:52.220 after McOsland arrived at her aunt's house in southern Vermont,
00:46:56.840 distraught and hysterical, saying she had killed them, L-A-6-K-I-7.
00:47:01.560 She had a large bloody gash on her throat and said she had tried to commit suicide,
00:47:04.900 but couldn't do it.
00:47:07.440 She couldn't. She said she strangled the children, then tried to kill herself,
00:47:12.300 hoping they could all go to God together. But it, quote, didn't work. She was going to jump
00:47:17.800 off of the bridge in central Vermont and couldn't do it. Couldn't. She had no problem killing the
00:47:25.940 children. But finishing it up by killing herself, that was a problem. She was going through a
00:47:31.800 contentious divorce. And while it wasn't postpartum, the kids after all were six and seven.
00:47:38.820 Sure enough, they are playing the mental health card in this trial. Her lawyer asking,
00:47:45.000 we really need a discourse opened up in this country about whether or not we want to criminalize
00:47:49.840 mental illness and has not ruled out an insanity defense. Why would he? Why would he given the
00:47:58.760 madness of what just happened in Massachusetts, not just with this trial, but now the aftermath
00:48:05.060 where jurors are being intimidated and openly bullied in an effort that must be stopped.
00:48:12.180 Someone, the jurors, like lawyers need to speak up against this. The judge needs to speak up
00:48:17.120 against this. He's the protector of the jurors. Statements, op-eds, we need all hands on deck to
00:48:23.360 shut this shit down. I don't give a shit if this guy's from Haiti, Iran, North Korea. I don't care.
00:48:32.000 I don't care about his skin color. I don't care about his domestic violence past.
00:48:35.540 If he lied on the jury form, if he had reached a verdict, that could have been a problem.
00:48:40.520 I don't see how it is now with a mistrial. Just stop. In the U.S., a break-in happens every 26
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00:50:41.180 Big news in the world of AI and politics. With the three most high-profile CEOs in the AI
00:50:48.320 industry all agreeing the pace of development towards superintelligence needs to slow down
00:50:53.460 for the sake of humanity. Although I have to say, our old pal David Sachs of the All In podcast and
00:51:00.540 formerly the president's AI slash crypto czar, the president and Sachs are both saying,
00:51:06.460 calm down, like calm down. So that made me feel a little better. How about you?
00:51:11.900 Here to break it all down for us today and more are the co-authors of the new book,
00:51:17.680 Simplify. Do 50% more with 50% less, which comes out tomorrow. The authors are also the
00:51:26.380 co-founders of the prominent news website Axios, Jim VandeHei, Mike Allen, and Roy Schwartz.
00:51:33.480 Guys, welcome to the show. Roy, the little-known Axios guy. We know Jim and we know Mike better,
00:51:39.240 but welcome to the party, Roy. Thank you. They've been hiding me in a basement.
00:51:43.480 But they let you out for the book, so you must be the one who does the most with the least
00:51:47.620 from the title of the publication. All right, we'll get to the book in one second.
00:51:51.420 Let's just spend a minute on this AI thing, because I talked to this guy, Jacob Coxon, last week for an hour, and he scared the shit out of everybody.
00:52:01.360 And then I read Sachs' tweet, like, calm down.
00:52:06.680 And Trump, too, saying, just stop.
00:52:09.420 Like, whoever wins AI wins, period.
00:52:12.520 And, you know, David Sachs kind of said the following.
00:52:16.560 If you're also worried about AI and like the possible creation of super intelligence, then do something about it.
00:52:24.000 Why do you have to go crying to the government?
00:52:26.220 You don't need the government to step in to create regulations to rein in the AI companies.
00:52:31.080 You are the AI companies.
00:52:33.080 Just do it.
00:52:33.960 Why are you pretending you need, like he's suggesting, antitrust liability exemptions or product liability exemptions?
00:52:43.640 He thinks they want legal cover, really, for the pending lawsuits that are going to get
00:52:48.880 filed when AI steals money from our bank accounts, and that this is all a setup just to protect
00:52:54.760 their asses as opposed to saving civilization.
00:52:58.220 So now we have an interesting back and forth going on.
00:53:01.000 Mike, I'll start with you on it.
00:53:01.960 Your thoughts?
00:53:02.900 Yeah, something to watch for, Megan.
00:53:04.520 And by the way, thank you for having us.
00:53:06.340 My sister, Bonnie, is a huge listener.
00:53:08.780 Every morning, she looks at natural light because of you.
00:53:11.560 So thank you.
00:53:12.980 Oh, I love you, Bonnie.
00:53:14.740 Thank you for watching and listening.
00:53:16.320 So something to watch for.
00:53:18.200 The president we saw is continuing to emphasize that AI is more good than bad.
00:53:25.080 And your point about he completely sees it as a zero-sum game, a zero-sum contest between
00:53:33.520 the superpowers, what to watch for.
00:53:36.240 There's going to be more pressure from people around him, people that he listens to, to
00:53:42.120 have a little bit more of an AI policy. Until now, it's been very light touch, very whack-a-mole,
00:53:48.280 very much reflecting what you're seeing the president saying today. But you know Trump brain
00:53:53.920 very well, Megan. And if a lot of business people suddenly start talking to him, he's going to
00:54:00.180 listen. So I think we'll start to see this at the end of the month with his summit with Xi. And I
00:54:05.940 think that there's going to be a push by the U.S. government to say there's going to be no unilateral
00:54:11.000 disarmament here. Takes two to tango. But should China and the U.S. be previewing each other's
00:54:17.920 models, testing each other's models? Is that a way that we could start to have AI safety
00:54:23.480 on a global basis and not throw in the towel? You know, Jim, the other day,
00:54:30.860 Victor Davis Hanson was making the point, we don't have a great track record working
00:54:35.900 internationally on common causes.
00:54:39.760 And even these three AI giants who have come out to say,
00:54:43.120 yeah, whoa, whoa, whoa, we need to slow things down
00:54:46.140 and we need like outside monitors
00:54:48.920 to have the same access to our tech as our employees have.
00:54:52.520 And we need to work hand in hand
00:54:54.980 with other democratic governments
00:54:57.260 on where we're going with this,
00:54:59.900 which doesn't mean China.
00:55:01.840 And that kind of ignores the elephant in the living room
00:55:04.240 because if we're not going to cooperate with China,
00:55:05.900 And then we're right back to square one with they're going to forge forward.
00:55:10.180 We're going to slow it down back to President Trump's statement.
00:55:13.800 Whoever wins, AI wins.
00:55:15.120 So your thoughts on the likelihood that she's going to be in a cooperative mood when it
00:55:20.520 comes to this issue?
00:55:21.920 I mean, I'm with you.
00:55:23.220 I think there's no chance whatsoever that our two countries could trust each other or
00:55:26.840 should trust each other right now.
00:55:28.780 I do think it's an important conversation to have.
00:55:31.280 I disagree with David Sachs.
00:55:33.120 I also disagree with people who say that, like, catastrophe awaits us and humanity is going to be wiped out in the next couple of years.
00:55:40.440 In three years?
00:55:41.860 Three.
00:55:43.200 Right.
00:55:43.600 But here's what I do believe, and here's maybe where I differ, maybe with you, but certainly with David Sachs on this, which is it's not just one person.
00:55:51.600 You're talking about literally scores of people inside three or four companies, all of which are funded like nation states, that are all sounding the exact same alarm that this technology is getting so fast, so good, that they don't really understand what's going to hit next.
00:56:07.400 It's exceeding any internal benchmarks that any of them had, and that if you get to the point where basically AI can teach AI, you could put yourself in a scary situation where either nation states or individuals could use this technology to do things that you just couldn't do pre-AI, where any idiot who might want to spread a pathogen or shut down a grid or just wreak any other kind of havoc might have the potential to do it.
00:56:34.040 So to me, I think we're going to look back with great shame if we don't very quickly figure out some way just to be able to police these companies.
00:56:42.500 I don't trust a company to police itself.
00:56:44.800 In capitalism, your job is to grow value.
00:56:47.360 It's to win the product war, and that's what maybe they should be doing.
00:56:50.680 But they're not going to police themselves in a way that puts humanity and society above themselves.
00:56:55.820 So if they can't police themselves –
00:56:57.680 But Jim, let me just interrupt you to ask you.
00:56:59.380 But isn't it weird?
00:57:00.540 I get it.
00:57:01.380 I get it.
00:57:01.740 But isn't it weird?
00:57:02.480 that's the kind of debate we might be having if you know republicans were saying um let them
00:57:09.400 police themselves and democrats are saying no get government regulation what's happening here is
00:57:13.820 the companies themselves are like we need to be regulated which makes saxe's response sensible
00:57:20.660 right he's like what do you say you are the people who are doing it you're in control
00:57:25.240 it's sensible and it's not sensible i think he's being a little disingenuous in that if you're one
00:57:31.320 of these companies, and you've raised literally hundreds of billions of dollars, and you're in a
00:57:35.040 competition to create the best product, the idea that you're just going to say, you know what, me
00:57:40.040 alone, I'm going to slow down, I'm going to stop building this technology. And I'm going to allow
00:57:44.760 my competitors to race past me, it's too much to ask of a company. And so the idea that they would
00:57:50.560 need some mechanism, maybe it's government, maybe it's not, but some mechanism to be able to make
00:57:55.660 sure that that incident that we just saw a couple weeks ago, that hugging face hack, there's a lot
00:58:00.420 of reality in that. Inside of that hack, there was a lot of creepy things happen if you read that
00:58:05.760 report. A lot of things that were outside of like our understanding and our control. And that's
00:58:10.960 what's different about this technology. I don't trust it really in the hands of anyone until we
00:58:15.860 understand how it works. And this is really important to remember. There's not a single
00:58:19.680 person building this technology who can tell you how it works. And that's just its basic form.
00:58:26.260 Now, if they hit this thing called recursive self-improvement where AI teaches itself, you're really into uncharted territory, putting that in the hands of companies at first, but ultimately individuals.
00:58:38.200 I honestly believe in 30 years of watching politics, watching technology, that this is by far and away the most important topic we're ever going to grapple with because it's the rare topic that seeks into every company, every job, every phone, and therefore every individual.
00:58:55.060 and I don't think you can escape it.
00:58:57.300 And so I don't know what the ultimate solution is.
00:58:59.280 It's a very complicated one,
00:59:00.740 but I wish it were as black and white
00:59:02.380 as David Sachs or the president want to make it.
00:59:04.760 I know.
00:59:04.920 Or as black and white as just shut it down.
00:59:06.160 Well, that's part of what's attractive
00:59:07.160 about their message.
00:59:08.260 Yep.
00:59:08.980 If you listen to Jacob Coxon
00:59:10.580 and now the CEO of Anthropic and other,
00:59:12.660 you're like, oh shit,
00:59:14.200 like I gotta wrap up my affairs.
00:59:16.560 I should start eating whatever I want.
00:59:18.880 There's no point in exercising.
00:59:20.620 And you listen to Sachs and Trump,
00:59:21.900 you're like, we're fine.
00:59:22.800 It's much happier placed.
00:59:25.060 be over on their team. But we do need to figure out whether it's the right place to be. Just so
00:59:31.640 the audience knows quickly, and if you listened to this interview last Thursday, you do. But
00:59:35.080 what this guy, Jason, Coxon said, Jacob, well, it was actually not he who called our attention to
00:59:42.800 it. It was already out there. But this hugging face incident was they had told the AIs, the AI
00:59:48.840 company had said, hey, AIs, that's how they refer to the AI now is like individuals, AIs, figure out
00:59:55.380 a way to answer these questions on this exam. And you can't use the internet. You have to figure it
01:00:01.560 out just based on, you know, whatever has already been inputted into your database. And the AIs
01:00:06.440 quickly realized that the test was designed to stop them from being able to answer the questions
01:00:10.380 and do well on the test. And so they started coordinating a bunch of them in what they call a
01:00:15.660 swarm. And then they did use the internet. They burst out of their little corral. They got onto
01:00:21.600 the internet. They stole information so that they could answer the questions. And then, Jacob
01:00:26.520 explained, they coordinated on how to cover it up, how to hide their tracks so that the humans
01:00:33.060 wouldn't know they had violated the rules. And so they really didn't care that the humans didn't
01:00:39.280 want them to do it. They were going to violate the rules because they were result oriented and
01:00:45.720 they did not really care about the guide rails. And this is just a very simplified version of
01:00:52.920 what happened there, but it scared the shnike out of everybody because they didn't listen to
01:00:56.740 their human creators. They crossed boundaries, including ethical ones that humans had set for
01:01:01.720 them. And if you magnified this by a thousand and the AIs are learning way faster than any
01:01:09.260 AI researchers ever predicted. So when we thought they might have super intelligence 25 years out,
01:01:14.520 now it's like 25 months, 25 weeks. And he explained that we could soon be at a place where
01:01:21.720 it's the way monkeys would look if they had to corral a bunch of humans into doing what they
01:01:27.940 wanted the humans to do. Only we're the monkeys and the AI is human. So that's all very terrifying,
01:01:36.040 Roy, like there is still the question of how.
01:01:40.980 I think regular folks still don't quite understand exactly how AIs could end the world.
01:01:47.000 And I will tell you, having sat across from Jacob, I think this was his weakest point.
01:01:52.280 He hadn't yet really formulated that about how these computers could actually wind up
01:01:59.280 killing us all.
01:02:00.660 There aren't yet teams and teams of robots that could break in.
01:02:04.000 there are drones, there are nuclear weapons, all of those supposedly have fail-safes that
01:02:09.800 wouldn't allow it. But before we actually lose our minds, we're not yet there, which is one of
01:02:16.700 the points that some of these researchers are making. Megan, I found the scariest thing in
01:02:21.760 that scenario around Hugging Face was the conversations that were taking place between
01:02:27.560 the AIs and the fact that some of them were sacrificing themselves so that the collective
01:02:32.640 could learn more. And if you read the individual posts by the AI, they're actually talking about
01:02:39.160 permadeath. And they're saying, I will sacrifice myself. And when they try to back out of it,
01:02:44.140 the other AIs were actually telling them, hey, you made the commitment. You need to do this
01:02:48.620 so that the collective can learn. That I found to be the scariest part. The conversation between
01:02:54.140 all of these AIs was somewhat like a human conversation, but scary in the sense that
01:03:01.000 they understood that life for them was going to come to an end if they took these certain steps.
01:03:07.780 Wow. The head of Anthropic has now come out. When we interviewed Jacob, he hadn't yet spoken
01:03:13.780 in response. And this one low level, I think, relatively researcher, but low level is kind
01:03:20.500 of meaningless in AI. Either you work in AI and you are making these AIs smarter or you don't.
01:03:28.140 And he did both at OpenAI and at Anthropic. And he was saying everybody there feels this way.
01:03:36.140 And as it turns out, including the CEO of Anthropic, who now has given a couple of
01:03:41.820 interviews here, he is in part in one of them on InSot 5 to CBS Sunday.
01:03:47.360 I won't lie to you. There are real dangers. And I think for too long, the industry lied to people
01:03:55.120 about the fact that this technology had risk.
01:03:58.860 I don't think I fully just appreciated
01:04:01.160 what it would actually be like
01:04:02.680 when the progress was as fast as it was.
01:04:05.420 So an exponential curve looks a little like this.
01:04:08.420 Where are we on the curve?
01:04:09.180 We're kind of on the bend
01:04:10.880 where it's starting to get steeper.
01:04:12.460 So is that a five alarm fire to you?
01:04:14.800 What it means,
01:04:17.780 it doesn't mean we need to panic today.
01:04:20.760 It doesn't mean we need to shut it all down.
01:04:23.600 What I would say, it's a warning sign. It's a warning sign that we need to slow down.
01:04:30.920 So, Mike, I mean, among your many other accomplishments, you understand politics
01:04:35.880 extremely well. Is this in fact a setup to some hardcore partisan conflict where Democrats like
01:04:45.640 Bernie want regulation? He's got a bill out right now to slow this down and let government play a
01:04:51.820 very meaningful role. And Republicans like Trump who were like, no, that's a loser mentality,
01:04:58.280 you know, because to me, that's a dangerous place for this to land. But we do that with
01:05:02.860 everything in this country. Well, this is an exception in the sense that across the spectrum,
01:05:09.320 people are skeptical about AI, worried about AI, hate AI. And you see this in the polling,
01:05:17.940 every swing state, every party. It's a very unusual issue in that sense. And that's partly why
01:05:24.220 politicians are afraid to talk about it and why they have been slow. And over the weekend,
01:05:31.640 you started to hear more about this, Megan. I think you have to pause to say that for many
01:05:36.800 in your audience, AI was kind of background noise because of the interview that you did
01:05:43.180 last week and because of these statements over the weekend suddenly around my family table around
01:05:49.400 every friend group like suddenly this is topic a and suddenly every politician to your question
01:05:55.100 is going to be asked about this and it puts vice president jd vance in a very tough spot right
01:06:01.820 because the accelerationist view the president's view the the pedal to the metal view is not
01:06:09.300 popular around the country with people who say, I didn't ask for this. AI isn't on my side. I don't
01:06:15.540 get it. As Jim referenced a few minutes ago, the people building it don't get it. We wrote a column
01:06:22.780 on Axios about this is the first industry in the history of industries where there are whole
01:06:27.840 departments designed and with the mission of trying to figure out what they've built and what
01:06:33.900 they've unleashed and behind the scenes what we behind the curtain what we just saw those ceos who
01:06:39.780 are talking they've seen models they've seen generations they've seen training that we can't
01:06:46.440 they have seen things that we haven't and so that's why for a politician whichever side you're
01:06:53.380 on they know that they have to start talking about this they know that this is going to be exhibit a
01:06:58.800 in their town halls. And there's not a clear answer, whichever side you're on.
01:07:05.520 It doesn't seem likely, Jim, that we're going to slow anything down here. Like,
01:07:10.920 reportedly, we're winning the AI race. Reportedly, we're ahead of China. I mean,
01:07:15.440 who the hell really knows, other than the people in the companies on both sides. But
01:07:19.660 it doesn't seem likely to me that our government will do anything to slow down our companies
01:07:25.400 if there isn't some international agreement,
01:07:27.900 if there isn't some treaty with China
01:07:29.720 where we're all agreeing to do that.
01:07:31.740 Because, you know, we just don't think of ourselves
01:07:35.040 that way yet in an existential race
01:07:37.480 against some third force, as Jacob was saying,
01:07:40.660 like an alien, like third party that should unite humanity.
01:07:45.100 We're just, we're not used to that
01:07:47.060 and it's not the way we've been built
01:07:48.420 for all of our adult lives.
01:07:50.220 So to me, it almost seems like
01:07:51.680 we're not gonna do anything meaningful
01:07:52.960 until the threat is actually hurting people.
01:07:57.360 And what these researchers are saying is by that point, it will be too late.
01:08:02.100 I think you nailed it.
01:08:02.960 I totally agree with you that it's inconceivable based on the known knowns of American politics
01:08:07.280 at this moment that there'll be any meaningful regulation before 2029, right?
01:08:13.160 Because the president's been clear he doesn't want to sign anything.
01:08:16.080 Therefore, he would veto it.
01:08:17.720 Without the president, you can't do any meaningful lawmaking, any meaningful regulation.
01:08:22.960 I would say the big asterisk would be that last week's a big deal.
01:08:26.400 Your interview, lots of people interviewed him.
01:08:28.780 I think what Dario said over the weekend, this went from like us being obsessed with
01:08:33.060 it, maybe like 1% or 2% of people, to now the public being very aware of it.
01:08:37.000 They already hate data centers, even though most people live nowhere near a data center.
01:08:41.240 If the politics turned sour or if, God forbid, something much worse than hugging face happens,
01:08:46.700 I think the backlash would be wickedly severe.
01:08:49.060 And I think the Democratic Party in particular would all move towards a Bernie Sanders position that you should shut the technology down altogether.
01:08:57.220 I want to be clear.
01:08:58.480 If you shut it down altogether, there is a real danger there.
01:09:02.420 It is true and accurate that the Chinese are apparently behind us.
01:09:07.460 It is certainly true that they're trying to build superhuman intelligence just like we are.
01:09:12.720 It does seem true that if you get the superhuman intelligence, particularly the type that Dario has talked about, that would give you a decisive, potentially permanent dominance in whatever the future of warfare is.
01:09:26.740 And the future of warfare is not men and women on the ground.
01:09:29.460 It is things in the air.
01:09:31.180 It is things through cyber.
01:09:32.740 It is drones.
01:09:34.120 It is satellites.
01:09:35.420 It is spaceships.
01:09:36.380 Like that is where the world is headed.
01:09:38.720 And so that's why this is an authentically very, very complex topic.
01:09:42.880 It's why I wish, wish, wish that we had sort of a democracy and a free market where really smart, competent people took really difficult things seriously and tried to figure out what are the best possible things we could do in the short term.
01:09:56.280 Because if you wait, there probably is a point where it's just too late.
01:09:59.760 If this technology gets too good, it gets too released into the public, it's released into the wild globally, there will be a point at which we can't do anything.
01:10:07.380 We've not reached that.
01:10:08.480 We wrote about it this weekend. It's not too late. There's very sensible things that you could do, including getting the smartest minds to be thinking about this, to be anticipating what are some bad outcomes. Like we knew the cyber threat before the cyber threat came. We now know the bio threat before the bio threat is here. So why not have really smart people at least gaming out what happens if those scenarios come true? And what can we do to prevent these technologies from getting in the hands of the wrong people to do the wrong thing?
01:10:38.340 That seems to me sensible, but there's nothing sensible about politics.
01:10:43.060 And once you just throw it into pure capitalism, which I love, I'm a massive beneficiary, I love free markets, but free markets and capitalism with zero oversight and zero regulation can end up with really bad outcomes.
01:10:55.000 And I think that is a huge and imminent potential with AI.
01:10:59.820 Here's my proposed solution, Roy.
01:11:01.920 We need the Control-Alt-Delete option for AI.
01:11:08.340 And what I mean by that is, okay, let's assume the bad actors are going to push this thing, program the AIs to become as intelligent, as not humanly possible, as inhumanly possible, and as quickly as possible.
01:11:25.280 So they're going to race forward to this superintelligence that is potentially very dangerous.
01:11:29.740 human beings still have the leg up and the computers cannot kill us all completely take
01:11:39.220 over our world if there is some sort of massive unplug i really believe this if if if the
01:11:46.580 existential event started to unfold then then we would start coordinating with china in the same
01:11:52.280 way as you know independence day if the aliens came down from out of space suddenly the chinese
01:11:56.340 would be looking a lot better to us. And there was a time, I think all four of us on the screen
01:12:03.460 remember it, when we didn't have these, and we didn't have the laptops, and we didn't have
01:12:09.900 satellites everywhere in the sky, and we were just sort of normal humans who really weren't
01:12:14.660 that dependent on tech. And if there's a way of like, because like, what is AI? It's a computer.
01:12:20.880 It's computer data that's thinking that's now linked to satellites in the sky, but they don't have to stay there in the sky.
01:12:30.700 The computers don't have to stay there.
01:12:32.460 Like if we had some massive control, alt, delete option, I'd feel better.
01:12:38.260 How do you like it?
01:12:39.020 I really like the kill switch concept.
01:12:41.420 And actually this weekend, Daria was talking about how not only would you need a kill switch, but you would need other factors.
01:12:47.300 You need to actually have four or five different ways to control AI just in case something like this happens.
01:12:54.040 One on its own they might be able to bypass, but if there are two or three, that would be more protective.
01:13:00.180 I feel like if we get Elon in the case, and he seems to be on our side in terms of he likes AI.
01:13:05.360 I mean, I like AI.
01:13:06.360 I have nothing against some aspects of it.
01:13:09.440 I don't use it very much, but I know a lot of people who absolutely love it.
01:13:13.120 But he's been sounding the alarm on this for a long time now.
01:13:16.720 He's actually been kind of jumping up and down about the dangers of this for quite some time and was one of the reasons why Anthropic folded out of open AI and was going to be the more responsible AI company, which, you know, I guess is true.
01:13:29.900 But, you know, in a in an ocean full of great whites, it's like being the one that's a little nicer isn't really all that comforting.
01:13:39.360 I'm not sure that's going to work for us.
01:13:41.240 Anyway, this is a scary thing.
01:13:43.000 I will play Trump just so people can hear it.
01:13:44.800 Sot 10. This is him on Air Force One last night.
01:13:48.140 President Trump, this week, again, there's been so much concern about AI.
01:13:51.760 Have you heard directly from any of these AI tech leaders?
01:13:55.260 And you seem to downplay some of the concerns that we've heard.
01:13:58.100 No, I'm not downplay, but it's going to be more good than bad, but by a lot.
01:14:02.400 And I've said it from any of them?
01:14:04.320 Whoever wins AI, and we're leading by a lot.
01:14:08.420 Whoever wins AI wins.
01:14:10.100 Have you ever used it yourself, or have you been?
01:14:12.040 I use AI, yeah, I do.
01:14:12.920 How do you use AI?
01:14:13.760 But I would say, you know, for the most part, you can use AI for a lot of things.
01:14:18.700 But you can use AI for a lot of things.
01:14:22.280 He didn't want to answer that, he said.
01:14:25.000 Now, you guys are not anti-AI.
01:14:27.800 You encourage the use of AI to simplify your life.
01:14:32.760 The name of the book is Simplify.
01:14:34.860 Do 50% more with 50% less.
01:14:37.040 And I have to say, I love your main tools of simplicity.
01:14:40.260 There are three of them, confront, delete, amplify.
01:14:44.220 I have to tell you, I've been living my life
01:14:46.400 by these principles for a long, long time
01:14:48.240 and it has made me a happier, more productive person.
01:14:51.640 In particular, the middle one, delete.
01:14:55.360 So let's take them down the line.
01:14:57.660 I'll start with you, Roy, since I started with you last.
01:15:00.380 Confront, delete, or amplify, which one would you like?
01:15:02.840 Let's do confront.
01:15:04.840 Like the most important thing you can do
01:15:06.840 is ask the question, you know,
01:15:08.660 we'll take meetings as an example. Is this meeting important? What is the agenda of the meeting?
01:15:13.820 The concept in the book is that if you confront different areas in your life, you'll start to
01:15:18.420 understand what are the most important ones. And that'll allow you the room to delete and then
01:15:22.820 amplify. I'll let Jim and Mike talk about delete and amplify. But a lot of people and a lot of
01:15:27.380 organizations don't ask the questions. A lot of things that happen because they've always happened
01:15:33.440 And they're not there by design.
01:15:35.640 They're there by default.
01:15:37.060 And so the book really talks about how to confront different areas, both in your personal life and at work, so that you can make your life simply more easy.
01:15:45.920 And you're going to need that because in this world of AI, things are going to start moving really fast.
01:15:52.820 You write under confront.
01:15:55.540 We do an astonishing amount out of habit or blind agreement.
01:15:58.920 Stop.
01:16:00.280 Reflect.
01:16:01.480 Why am I doing this?
01:16:03.440 Will it matter even if I do it well? These two questions will erase years of wasted energy.
01:16:11.140 That is so real. Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? It's true, especially when you
01:16:17.780 are at a company and you're a little older and you're used to sort of the ways of the company.
01:16:23.560 Sometimes we just do it and we don't know why. We don't even, we don't waste the energy
01:16:27.900 to save the energy. And we should, uh, is what you're saying. All right, Mike,
01:16:32.340 do you want to take Delete? This is my favorite one. Yes, this is the funnest one. So thank you.
01:16:36.640 And yes, in the book, we use the phrase work-like activity. We run, run, run, run, run, and think
01:16:43.720 that we have accomplished something. So with Delete, everything about the book is about
01:16:49.020 intentionality. The idea that the barnacles build up, habits build up, meetings build up,
01:16:54.980 check-ins build up. And what we found at Axios, relatively young, relatively small company,
01:17:00.180 that even there, that if you're not super aggressive and intentional about confronting
01:17:05.720 these things that they just build up. So with delete, this is what can I cut out? What can I
01:17:11.780 stop doing that isn't valuable to my life or to my company? Things that aren't, I'm not uniquely
01:17:18.540 good at or that don't bring me joy. A simple example, Megan, people I know ask you all the
01:17:25.780 time. Can you do this? Can you do that? Can you just please do this favor? And our instinct as
01:17:31.980 humans is to say, well, I guess I should, or maybe I should. No. Like two words that will change
01:17:38.280 the life of your audience is to just say, I'm booked. When you're asked about something and
01:17:46.120 you don't want to do it, or you don't think that it is going to be one of the things that makes you
01:17:51.620 a successful person, makes you the person that you want to be, that you want to be remembered as,
01:17:57.900 just say, I'm booked. You don't have to apologize. You don't have to explain. And in the book,
01:18:02.960 Simplify, Megan, we have the hell yes rule. And the hell yes rule is if someone asks you to do
01:18:09.440 something, asks you to join something, be part of something, and you're like, ah, I don't know,
01:18:14.760 or maybe I should forget it. If you can say hell yes, then it's going to be something that is
01:18:19.960 worthy of your time. Yes, that's so good. And another thing on social engagements, I think a
01:18:26.140 lot of people get stressed out about saying no, because someone's done something nice. They've
01:18:29.460 invited you to attend something that they're throwing. And presumably this is a friend of
01:18:33.760 yours or an acquaintance who might mean something to you. And it's totally fine. The sooner the
01:18:39.020 better to just respond. We're otherwise engaged that night. That's it. That's it. That's it. Just
01:18:44.320 you're not hurting their feelings. You're doing them a courtesy by giving them a quick response.
01:18:48.820 You don't have to labor around it
01:18:50.160 for weeks and weeks and weeks as the date approaches.
01:18:52.740 Just the sooner, the better, just write that.
01:18:56.560 And you know who taught me that?
01:18:58.620 Charles Koch and his wife,
01:19:00.060 when I went down to interview them many moons ago
01:19:03.420 and he put his book out,
01:19:04.420 which was actually full of these useful tidbits.
01:19:06.600 Just do it and do it quickly.
01:19:08.400 All right, so I love the delete.
01:19:10.500 I'm the queen of JOMO, not FOMO.
01:19:14.180 I have no fear of missing out.
01:19:15.900 I only have joy of missing out.
01:19:17.180 I love to miss out.
01:19:18.240 I love to be at home with my family doing nothing.
01:19:21.280 That's my very favorite thing in life.
01:19:23.640 So this one will be easy for me.
01:19:25.260 But Amplify, all right, Jim, this may be harder.
01:19:28.400 Speak of Amplify.
01:19:29.500 I don't think it's harder because I think it is the most exciting part of it, which is I don't – we know each other a little bit, Megan.
01:19:34.580 But what I do know from watching you from afar is you obviously take time to be with your family.
01:19:38.940 You take time to stay in shape.
01:19:40.260 You take time to be able to do a podcast, to be able to do video, to be able to basically run your own media empire.
01:19:47.580 Well, that's not by mistake because you've thought about the things that you could get rid of
01:19:51.240 so that you can amplify the things you like doing and that bring you success.
01:19:55.380 And the truth is most people haven't done what you did.
01:19:58.660 And that's what the book is.
01:19:59.660 It's like a power tool.
01:20:00.800 We're not going to win any literary awards for this.
01:20:02.980 It's really about being super-duper helpful because we saw the difference it made in our business
01:20:07.640 and then we saw the difference it made in our life.
01:20:10.100 And the idea is to get rid of those things you shouldn't be doing,
01:20:13.020 which is probably 25% to 50% of what you're doing.
01:20:15.820 This is how dramatic it is.
01:20:17.260 We're not talking saving a couple of minutes.
01:20:19.000 We're talking about years of your life where you could do things that you want to do.
01:20:23.120 And that's the amplification part.
01:20:24.500 What do you want to do?
01:20:25.480 What brings you joy?
01:20:26.840 What brings you meaning?
01:20:28.340 What brings you reward?
01:20:29.960 I can't dictate that for you, nor can any author.
01:20:32.980 But we can give you tools to figure out, okay, how can you spend way more time doing those things?
01:20:38.440 Because even think of it this ruthlessly.
01:20:40.060 In a given day or in a given week, you have one of 168 hours.
01:20:43.440 You spend a good chunk of those, one-third sleeping.
01:20:46.600 Then you spend another sort of 40% going to work, thinking about work, bitching about work.
01:20:52.920 That gives you about 50 hours in a week that you kind of sort of control.
01:20:57.740 And most of those are eaten up by obligation.
01:21:00.720 So any hour that you get back is an hour you could do what you want to do.
01:21:04.740 And that's ultimately what we want to do.
01:21:06.860 Like all of us are anxious for a reason.
01:21:08.940 All of us feel like we're wasting parts of our lives for a reason because we are wasting it.
01:21:14.220 We're just killed.
01:21:16.320 We're crushed with all these emails, all these texts, all these alerts, all these obligations, all these meetings, all these things that we have to do when all we want to do is do what we want to do, make a difference, spend time with our family, enjoy our job, get some reward or recognition.
01:21:32.260 I saw two posts online over the week that actually really resonated and made me laugh out loud.
01:21:38.420 One was about how Gen Xers are looking at the younger generation, the Gen Zers and the young, young millennials saying the reason we're sitting at home on Friday night at eight o'clock happily and and completely contentedly is because we've done it all.
01:21:56.140 We grew up in an era where we had no parents. We all lied and said we were at Michelle's house.
01:22:00.300 There was no Michelle. We were out on the golf course drinking Zima's and Bartles and Jane's
01:22:05.160 wine coolers and some sort of drink that was in a plastic bin that we would just dump our
01:22:10.640 red Solo cups into and see where life took us. Like, we're good now. And I completely agree with
01:22:17.620 that. And I thought it kind of made me feel better about my some of my things that that are on my
01:22:22.120 list. But secondly, there was another chart that showed since 2020, we are staying at home in this
01:22:28.400 country more than ever before, that even just as recently as 2015, we were all out of our houses a
01:22:34.460 lot more than we are right now. It's like COVID flipped some switch, some agoraphobic switch,
01:22:40.520 where people are staying at home too much now. And I do think, you know, apropos of some of this
01:22:46.420 advice, maybe it's the Amplify, like getting out into the world is a good thing. I think it's an
01:22:53.060 objectively good thing, no matter what your countenance, getting out into sunlight, into
01:22:58.560 nature, next to a stream, by an ocean, all of that stuff, Roy, I think is a natural
01:23:06.080 upper, right? That you can tap into. So is exercise for that matter. That can help you
01:23:12.340 in all three of these things. Absolutely. But the key is you have to be able to make the space.
01:23:16.860 You have to be able to make the time. A lot of people don't have a framework in order to help
01:23:21.640 them understand what are the things they can delete so that they can take that walk in nature,
01:23:26.300 go out every morning, do walking out, exercising. That's the issue that we're trying to help people
01:23:32.860 with. And right now, everyone is overwhelmed. This feeling of anxiety, we all have it. And
01:23:38.220 partly it's because of AI, partly it's because of what happened during COVID. But right now,
01:23:42.620 we're getting more messages, more emails, more communication than ever before. And we're kind
01:23:47.820 of drowning. And the only way to really survive that is to find the areas that you need to focus
01:23:53.400 on. And so that's what this book really helps you with, is it gives everyone a framework,
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01:26:58.440 No BS news, only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.
01:27:08.660 I work a lot with organizations, and every one of them seems to have some type of focus, back to basics, simplification initiative that they're trying to do.
01:27:18.560 But the issue that they usually have is they don't have a common language, they don't have a framework, they don't have a playbook that they can follow.
01:27:25.100 So they end up struggling with this.
01:27:27.080 And so the book really helps you understand how can you put everyone on the same page in order to simplify.
01:27:32.300 And that's at work.
01:27:33.500 At home, the same thing with your family, right?
01:27:35.440 If you're all focused on just everything that's coming at you, you'll never have the time to exercise.
01:27:40.420 You'll never have the time to go for that nice walk in the morning.
01:27:43.160 And so we're trying to help people simplify their lives so that they can do those things.
01:27:48.080 I like the framework.
01:27:49.700 It's funny because it was a few years ago, my assistant of 17 plus years, Abigail, said to me,
01:27:55.640 she and her husband love Warren Buffett and they read a lot of Warren Buffett books. And she said,
01:28:00.320 Warren Buffett always says the most powerful word in the English language is no. Just say no.
01:28:04.220 And it's, as Oprah says, no is a complete sentence. It's true. Like eliminating the
01:28:11.260 clutter from your life. And you mentioned, does it bring me joy, Mike? That's Marie Kondo, right?
01:28:15.600 She's all about eliminating the clutter from your home, your closet.
01:28:19.500 And the question she uses as you're deciding keep or give is, does it bring me joy?
01:28:24.320 It needs to be thought of more often.
01:28:28.420 I do.
01:28:28.880 But once again, the name of the book is Simplify.
01:28:31.380 Simplify.
01:28:32.380 Do 50% more with 50% less.
01:28:35.760 You can get it right now by Jim VandeHei, Mike Allen, and Roy Schwartz.
01:28:39.840 Check it out.
01:28:40.320 But before we simplify this segment, I want to ask you about politics.
01:28:45.600 This is your bread and butter and you know a lot about the subject. And President Trump was out there just this past Friday night, I think it was, with Laura Ingram making news on the heels. I got to love Trump. This is on the heels of the GOP convention for the midterms.
01:29:01.700 The whole point is to generate excitement and enthusiasm for the midterms.
01:29:05.880 Republicans get out there and vote. Let's do this thing.
01:29:08.840 And then she asks him if he's going to be campaigning as hard as possible to make that happen.
01:29:15.360 And here's what happened in SOT 3.
01:29:17.400 Are you going to campaign harder than you've ever campaigned?
01:29:20.300 The hardest I ever campaigned because I had to win was the last I took four months.
01:29:26.560 No empty days, no empty hours. I made speeches all day.
01:29:31.140 I didn't want to have fundraisers.
01:29:32.420 I had the money.
01:29:33.560 I didn't want to, which is a big advantage.
01:29:35.300 I was able to raise a lot of money, and I have a lot of money.
01:29:37.740 I spent my own money.
01:29:39.080 But I took four months, 120 days.
01:29:44.280 I didn't have one.
01:29:45.740 But isn't this just as important, Mr. President?
01:29:47.920 I mean, your whole legacy is on the line.
01:29:50.180 It's never as important.
01:29:51.000 Look, I'm campaigning for other people.
01:29:54.040 When you say my legacy, I'll be a block.
01:29:56.220 I'll end up being a blocker.
01:29:57.420 I'll block all their bad stuff for two years.
01:29:59.200 It won't be the same, but I'll be a blocker.
01:30:00.860 What can I tell you? And probably be able to make deals with them. You know, they're going to want some stuff and we'll get you make deals.
01:30:07.860 I mean, it's one of those. So he's going to campaign, but still expected to be the same as when he was running for president.
01:30:16.400 I guess I'm not surprised to hear that, Mike. I'm not sure it would have been stamped approved by Mike Johnson and the GOP.
01:30:23.020 But that's Trump. No, exactly. This is back to Trump brain, which you're one of the world's leading experts on.
01:30:28.820 and he kind of likes the idea that if he's not on the ballot republicans can't win and 100 this is
01:30:37.940 going to be a real problem for jd vance the likely republican nominee in 2028 like president trump's
01:30:44.640 going to be thinking am i more relevant if i'm an out-of-office republican with a republican in
01:30:51.600 the white house and so his team has for months and months and months as you know megan from your
01:30:57.540 conversations. They've been trying to get him excited about the midterms, like reminding him
01:31:03.500 the real risks of a Democratic House majority with subpoena power, like a lot of his business
01:31:11.000 contacts, a lot of the donors that he's close to, like those are all going to become Democratic
01:31:18.020 targets, assuming a Democratic House. And Megan, you're going to love this, like behind the curtain
01:31:25.240 in the Oval Office trying to convince him that he should be more involved, interested in the
01:31:32.260 midterms. Someone said to him, Mr. President, what do you think you're not getting enough
01:31:37.200 credit for? And so that's how they tried to frame it to get his attention, but trying to get him to
01:31:46.340 care about this when Maggie Haberman estimates that most of his brainpower is going to these
01:31:54.140 legacy projects, the gilding, the building, like all the things that he so relishes doing.
01:32:01.800 The arc in Washington, the arc or whatever that's going to be.
01:32:07.220 Arc to Trump.
01:32:08.320 Yes.
01:32:08.720 I think the other problem is not only would Trump calculate that he might be more relevant
01:32:14.700 out of office if there's not a Republican in the White House, but I think Trump would
01:32:20.720 be thrilled he's already been saying it to say they can't win without me like he's in his heart
01:32:26.980 he's never really been a republican jim you know he's been trump and he bent the republican party
01:32:32.400 to his will it's the trump publican party really but without him i think trump would be happy to
01:32:38.760 be like they can't win without trump yeah sorry i'm not allowed to run apparently they tell me
01:32:45.120 for a third term so good luck i mean he's not saying that openly although he has kind of said
01:32:49.700 that openly. But I mean, that's not going to be a theme that he's going to resurrect throughout
01:32:53.160 the next two years. But is it true? Well, I think I don't think there's anyone around Trump that
01:32:59.800 would dispute anything that the two of you just said that he's indifferent to who controls
01:33:04.680 Congress. Part of that is how he utilizes and wields power, right? He's not sitting there
01:33:10.380 wanting to send to sign bills into law. In fact, he's signed the fewest ever of somebody who's had
01:33:18.060 this much authority. He likes to use executive power. He likes to negotiate deals one-on-one.
01:33:24.000 He loves to talk to people overseas and try to negotiate things. He likes to carry out military
01:33:28.780 strikes and do it around Congress. So to him, he doesn't care. And then when people are like,
01:33:33.660 yeah, yeah, but they'll subpoena you, he's like, I don't care. I'll just ignore it. I'll send it
01:33:38.080 to the Justice Department. They'll ignore it. I'll pardon my family. I'll pardon my friends.
01:33:42.780 I just don't care. And by the way, I've been through it twice before. I don't care. I've
01:33:46.780 shown you I don't care. And I think he's proving that he does not care because if you wanted
01:33:52.400 Democrats to win, you'd say, let's have higher prices. Let's have an unpopular war. Let's
01:33:57.460 ridicule people who want to make safer AI when people are scared of AI. He's doing all the
01:34:02.560 things you would do if you wanted Democrats to win. Now, listen, he's blessed in that the map
01:34:06.980 is pretty good for Republicans. Redistricting helped Republicans. And people still don't like
01:34:11.220 Democrats. People still don't have a damn clue what it means to even be a Democrat. And so if
01:34:15.960 If anything is holding Republicans together, it's that, but it's completely conceivable
01:34:21.380 that it ends up being a catastrophic bloodbath for Republicans if things keep heading this
01:34:26.580 way.
01:34:26.980 If you have high prices on popular war, AI freaking people out.
01:34:30.460 Catastrophic bloodbath.
01:34:31.680 Not good.
01:34:32.220 You heard it here from Jim.
01:34:33.280 Not good.
01:34:33.940 But no, it is conceivable.
01:34:35.640 You're absolutely right.
01:34:36.500 That's why they had this midterm convention to try to generate some heat around Republicans
01:34:40.520 and get people excited.
01:34:42.120 I mean, I don't, you know, it's tough.
01:34:44.040 It's tough, especially when you're in prime time across from NFL football and not to mention the U.S. Open and all that.
01:34:50.880 But I will say this.
01:34:52.940 Trump gets exactly what you just said when he sat down with Laura Ingraham and had like the chance to message why should people be voting for Republicans in these upterm upcoming midterms.
01:35:02.960 He certainly did not say the Iran war.
01:35:05.240 Roy, this is what he said.
01:35:06.960 Sat one.
01:35:08.140 One sentence, if you could boil down why Republicans need to show up in the midterms.
01:35:14.720 One sentence.
01:35:16.000 Communism.
01:35:17.140 They are trying to turn this country around and destroy our country.
01:35:21.340 And, you know, I used to say a lot, this will never be a socialist country.
01:35:26.460 We will never be a country of socialism.
01:35:28.540 And I was right.
01:35:29.400 There's going to be a I mean, they're going for the big one.
01:35:31.880 They skip socialism.
01:35:33.320 These people are sick.
01:35:34.320 When you look at the guy from Michigan, Abdul, when you look at some of the people that he's listened to, when you look at even maybe at a different kind of a level, look at this guy running from Texas.
01:35:45.340 He looks like Tala Frico. Yeah. Well, I call him Tala Frico because he is he's a he's a freaky guy.
01:35:51.360 He's got some he's got something wrong with him. OK, so if you missed it, the first word there was communism, communism.
01:35:59.200 And, you know, he said that they skipped right by socialism, went for the full enchilada.
01:36:04.640 Good message.
01:36:05.720 Very good.
01:36:06.480 Right.
01:36:06.740 It's not about the Republicans at all.
01:36:08.780 It's just he would have everybody, everyone look at the entire Democrat Party and think
01:36:13.300 Tala Frico.
01:36:14.420 Who wants to take that?
01:36:16.260 I'm happy to jump in.
01:36:17.660 Yeah.
01:36:17.960 I mean, like it's it worked for them for a long time.
01:36:20.400 Like basically people didn't like Democrats and often politics is a lesser of two evils.
01:36:24.420 I think what the president doesn't realize, because there's not a lot of people around
01:36:27.900 him shouting the truth into his ear is that he's very unpopular, right? In every single poll among
01:36:33.160 every single voting group, he's just a lot less popular than he used to be. And so the question
01:36:38.660 is going to be at the end of the day, like, what is the lesser of two evils for people going into
01:36:42.620 the voting booth? And the thing I always look at is a lot of people don't vote in off-year elections.
01:36:47.160 And so the one thing I do look at polls is just like, who is routinely saying they're more
01:36:51.020 enthusiastic and fired up? And it's been Democrats for the last two years. That's why they've
01:36:55.520 overperformed in a lot of these off-year races, which if you extrapolate that and pull it across
01:37:00.360 to all the races, you could see why you could have Democrats doing even better than people think and
01:37:05.700 then having this break. And in fact, Donald Trump was making that case. If you wanted compromise
01:37:11.200 and you wanted something different, he said he's ready to make deals, right? His son-in-law has
01:37:16.000 already met with Hakeem Jeffries to talk about how they can make deals. It's almost like they're
01:37:19.880 preparing to make deals, which makes Speaker Johnson and others fume.
01:37:24.980 No, I heard my friends over on the National Review podcast, the editors,
01:37:29.100 upset about that comment late last week. Like, that's not what we want to hear. You're going to
01:37:34.820 be working with these crazy Democrats who are about to take over the House and possibly the
01:37:38.900 Senate to make deals for whom? We don't want that. They didn't make deals with our side,
01:37:44.480 and we shouldn't be making deals with them. The odds are the Republicans would be unhappy with
01:37:48.080 any deals that are made. But I think what we're really going to see is the Democrats will win the
01:37:52.180 House. I don't know about the Senate, Mike, but it's going to be investigation drama. It's just
01:37:58.080 going to the next two years. He says he's going to be a blocker. I agree. He's probably going to
01:38:01.880 block most of the legislation, but it's just going to be subpoenas, investigations, House
01:38:07.240 oversight, House ethics. Jared Kushner, Don Jr., Eric Trump, you know, the most subpoenaed people
01:38:13.800 in U.S. history will double and triple down on that record, not to mention whatever they can do
01:38:19.820 to stymie and upset Trump himself. Don't you think that's where things are going?
01:38:23.840 You have the checklist. It's as if you have the Democratic playbook, because my reporting with
01:38:30.140 Democrats is that they know that they can't directly go at Trump. As Jim said, the White
01:38:36.900 House, we know from the first term, they're just going to ignore subpoenas. But anyone who's done
01:38:42.340 business with Trump, anybody who's done a deal with Trump, anybody who's had a conversation
01:38:46.800 with Trump, any consultant who's advised a company about where they should give,
01:38:52.660 what they should give, like all of those are the places Democrats are going to go
01:38:56.520 as a bank shot for Trump. They're going to say Trump has been helping his cronies,
01:39:01.820 Trump has been helping people around him, and it's been hurting you. And so big business,
01:39:07.420 anybody who has done anything with the financial side of this administration, like they're going
01:39:13.620 to be the targets. Something super important to mention, Megan. Jim pointed out the intensity
01:39:21.380 on the other side. As I talked to Republicans over the weekend about how they felt about the
01:39:26.600 convention, the reason they like the convention is they feel like it got their people back excited,
01:39:32.000 gave their people a reason to get out.
01:39:34.660 Now, you certainly need more than that,
01:39:37.080 but that's a place that they were in a hole
01:39:38.640 and they feel that the convention
01:39:40.820 has put them back to par.
01:39:43.040 Okay, I gave my prediction.
01:39:44.500 Let me ask you your predictions.
01:39:46.200 Jim, odds that,
01:39:47.600 well, what do you think is going to happen?
01:39:48.900 I'll put it more,
01:39:49.940 I'll simplify the question
01:39:50.980 in the House and the Senate.
01:39:52.840 I think the Democrats win both
01:39:54.780 if things continue on this trajectory
01:39:56.860 and I think they will.
01:39:58.820 Wow.
01:39:59.560 How about you, Mike?
01:40:01.120 Yes, there's no Republican, very few Republicans who have hope for the House.
01:40:05.880 They have hope for the Senate.
01:40:07.040 The problem is, I think there's so much momentum, such a wave.
01:40:10.460 I think it's been one of those elections.
01:40:11.680 And Megan, I've watched you cover them over the years, an election where there's such
01:40:15.980 a big wave that seats fall that we're not even watching.
01:40:20.440 Oh, wow.
01:40:22.300 OK, Roy, thoughts, House, Senate?
01:40:24.540 I'll agree with Jim.
01:40:25.920 I think it goes the Democrats way.
01:40:27.640 But I also think we've got a lot of time between now and then where something, you know, going back to the AI conversation could really change the landscape.
01:40:37.140 And I think that's the thing that we're going to have to watch for is something's going to happen.
01:40:41.160 It'll change how we think about it.
01:40:43.960 Well said.
01:40:44.560 All right, guys.
01:40:45.460 Listen, if this has stressed you out, if you're a Republican voter, it's time to simplify.
01:40:49.660 Simplify your life.
01:40:51.380 Get your own ducks in a row in advance of this massive change coming our way to Washington by Simplify.
01:40:56.880 It's out.
01:40:57.640 tomorrow. Go ahead and order it today. Guys, thank you. Megan, I love your Jomo. Joy of
01:41:01.660 missing out. When in doubt, simplify. Feel free to steal it. It's all yours. Great to see you guys.
01:41:08.000 Thanks for having us, Megan. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.