The Mikhaila Peterson Podcast - 147. My Backstory Interview from Mark Goulston

00:00:00.000 And I've been talking about the diet, not because I wanted to be known as a diet person,

00:00:05.820 because I was never really interested in like vegan or gluten-free or any of that.

00:00:10.440 It was just like, I'm more interested in books, you know, and stories and learning things

00:00:16.220 than diet.

00:00:18.160 But I've felt like the urge to tell people about this because of how much I suffered

00:00:23.580 and how much of a difference it made to me that I've felt like morally obligated to tell

00:00:28.060 people, even though I don't really enjoy being the diet person. Welcome to episode 147 of my

00:00:38.100 podcast, the Michaela Peterson podcast. Sorry about the lack of episode last week. I got a

00:00:42.920 toddler flu and almost died. What you're about to see is a conversation that's actually from

00:00:48.060 Dr. Mark Goulston's podcast. So I'm the interviewee for a change. He was on my podcast last

00:00:54.060 summer, Mark's an incredibly kind ex-FBI hostage negotiator, psychiatrist, and the author or

00:01:00.500 co-author of nine books. He's also well known for coaching CEOs and as the inventor of surgical

00:01:06.980 empathy. We've been trying to make this happen for a while now, and I'm glad we did because

00:01:12.140 we covered a lot of interesting topics, I hope. We talked about purpose, my experience with

00:01:18.200 psychedelics, and the difference between coping and healing. We also explored some interesting

00:01:22.700 concepts like surgical empathy and how ayahuasca seems to reconfigure minds. Before we get started,

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00:02:45.360 10% off. Mother's Day is coming up too. Just saying. Enjoy this episode.

00:02:55.600 Welcome to another episode of my wake-up call. This is that podcast where I meet people,

00:03:01.200 I get to know a little bit about them, and I want to get to know a lot more about them.

00:03:06.540 But while I'm getting to know them, I figure, why don't you listen in our listeners? And then when

00:03:12.520 my guests use videos. Why don't you watch as we get to know each other? And I'm really excited to

00:03:21.280 have as my guests, the ever elusive Michaela Peterson, because I was on her podcast and we've

00:03:30.660 been meaning to connect. And because of all kinds of various things, we didn't connect until now,

00:03:37.960 but let me tell you a little bit about her. She's an amazing podcaster. She's a CEO, TEDx and Oxford

00:03:45.340 Union speaker. She's the host of the Michaela Peterson podcast, where she interviews a wide

00:03:50.860 range of experts and public figures to discuss health, natural phenomena, politics and other

00:03:56.760 topics that are often shied away from. By the way, she overcame incredible adversity in the form of

00:04:04.100 severe autoimmune diseases that destroyed her ankle, hip, and brain function after researching

00:04:09.980 and implementing a new diet for which she is now known. She is also the founder of The Lion Diet.

00:04:16.880 Michaela, good to see you again. Cool. Good to see you too. Thanks for having me on.

00:04:23.320 Well, thank you. So let me ask you, if you were to think of the through line, a consistency in your

00:04:29.820 life of kind of a fill in the blanks. I've always blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then if you can

00:04:36.380 also think of your purpose or calling why you are here on this planet and share with us what those

00:04:45.820 are, and then tell us the story of how you develop them. Uh, and let's have a conversation.

00:04:52.180 okay so i think if i had to recognize a pattern about how i behaved throughout my life

00:05:00.160 i had a fair i had a very rough time being sick as a kid with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis

00:05:08.380 and i think partly because of how i was raised um i was always i was never going to be overcome by

00:05:16.300 it. You know, I didn't, I would, I refuse to give up. Right. And I harnessed some sort of anger

00:05:25.300 within myself in order to push back. And I think probably a lot of people with chronic diseases

00:05:31.680 that are fighting them, they probably understand what I mean, but I was like, this isn't going to

00:05:37.400 be what takes me out. So I had a lot of doctors throughout my life say, you're going to have this

00:05:43.140 forever. Um, you're going to be on these medications forever. You're not gonna be able

00:05:46.980 to have kids, right. Um, you're going to die young just statistically, you know, and at some

00:05:54.440 point I think I was probably, it was probably fairly young. Maybe when I was 12, I was just

00:06:01.060 like, no, that's not, I'm not, I'm not listening to that. That's not what's happening. And that

00:06:05.820 kind of grew in intensity until I was about 23. And it was really, I would probably describe it

00:06:12.400 as anger of like, that's not how I'm letting my kind of life narrative play out. I'm not going

00:06:17.400 to be the sick person. Um, so I would say that's probably a pattern, like the biggest pattern

00:06:25.340 throughout my life was being able to harness this type of like, I don't know, anger and stubbornness.

00:06:31.500 Um, and that's manifested more recently in, in ways where, you know, with work, I can say,

00:06:38.220 okay I want something to go a certain way and I don't really believe in glass walls or anything

00:06:45.780 stopping me from doing things I think that if you try as hard as you can you can accomplish

00:06:50.240 incredible things and I think a lot of people are stuck in kind of fake boxes that they make

00:06:57.420 for themselves right in these invisible structures saying well that's not possible for me because of

00:07:02.540 x and really none of that's real you you can almost do you can almost do anything which sounds

00:07:09.040 crazy but i do believe that um and then can you repeat your second question i want to do this in

00:07:16.800 the right order well before we uh repeat that uh i'm going to give you a new word that i hope you

00:07:23.940 like are you open to that yes definitely because uh something that was built into me was

00:07:32.340 it's not great to be judgmental. You know, I was a therapist. Don't be judgmental.

00:07:37.860 And as a result, I think I could be manipulated by people. Oh, don't be judgmental. Oh,

00:07:42.800 they have an issue. And what's happened is I've gotten older. I've replaced the word judgmental

00:07:48.460 with discerning. Oh, I like that. I like the word discerning. I can be discerning and I'm not being

00:07:55.240 judgmental. So you mentioned the words angry and stubborn, both of which can be triggering to other

00:08:03.220 people like, oh, she's going to be high maintenance. And I'd like you to replace both those words with

00:08:09.320 determined. I became very determined that nothing was going to stop me. Okay. I can get behind that.

00:08:19.800 It was determination. It just had a, like, uh, it had a, it was serious determination. If that's

00:08:27.180 the case, serious determination, like there's a wall and this is a decision and this is what I'm

00:08:31.520 doing. So yeah, I, I could probably replace anger. I think I had so much negative emotion when I was

00:08:38.200 sick. I don't have that anymore now that I'm better, but I think I had so much negative emotion

00:08:42.120 when I was sick that it felt more like, it felt like if you're climbing up a mountain and you

00:08:47.920 have to really grit and bear it and like, uh, up the mountain. And so I equated that with anger,

00:08:54.640 but I mean, determination is reasonable. I can get behind that. Okay. It's just a suggestion.

00:08:59.940 You're also, this is a conversation. You're also reminding me of someone and maybe you'll have her

00:09:05.240 on your podcast. If we can locate her, there's a woman named Anna. I don't know her last name,

00:09:11.060 but I think she has a website called Anna runs America and she ran across

00:09:16.160 America for,

00:09:17.040 for veterans charities and a friend of mine interviewed her and he said,

00:09:22.680 why didn't you give up? And she said, as I was running,

00:09:28.580 I kept imagining all the time that I was a blind person seeing for the first

00:09:34.460 time. Wow. So when you're running, Oh,

00:09:39.520 that's a palm tree. I must be in the South. Oh, well, that's a mom and pop business. That's

00:09:46.540 probably not going to be here in six months. And well, that was a St. Bernard who left that on the

00:09:51.460 sidewalk in front of me. I better avoid that. But just the idea of imagining your blind seeing for

00:09:58.140 the first time. Wow. And, and, and I've actually, and feel free to use that with audiences, by the

00:10:05.840 way because a lot of times we have to do something to overcome zoom fatigue and a lot of people

00:10:10.900 throw in all kinds of pyrotechnics and something you're welcome to use which i've used because i

00:10:16.620 i believe those things can be you know kind of stimulating but distracting but an exercise i'll

00:10:23.360 do and you're welcome to do it i'll say i have a couple exercises one is i want you to close your

00:10:28.880 eyes for 30 seconds and when you open them imagine you're a blind person seeing for the first time

00:10:36.640 And when you open them, notice stuff that you didn't notice.

00:10:40.840 Notice the person next to you.

00:10:43.040 Notice the back of their head.

00:10:45.140 Notice, you know, one of their shirt collar.

00:10:48.440 If you're on a Zoom call, notice the person in the square next to you.

00:10:52.080 Notice their background, because when you notice, you're more present than just looking,

00:10:56.360 watching and seeing.

00:10:58.040 And now what I'd like you to do, but you won't be able to hear my instruction.

00:11:01.680 And you know what I'm going to say is I want you to cover your ears.

00:11:05.800 Uh, and, and then we'll cover them for 15 seconds, uh, and count inside your own head

00:11:16.060 to 15.

00:11:18.120 And then when you uncover your ears, imagine that you're a deaf person listening for the

00:11:25.460 first time.

00:11:28.320 And then the final one, because sometimes I'll give presentations about emotional intelligence

00:11:33.780 and i'll and that's a feeling close your eyes cover your ears and when you open them

00:11:43.320 i want you to imagine that you're feeling for the first time

00:11:47.620 see if you can feel into the room is there a level of stress is there a level of zoom fatigue

00:11:55.680 is there a level of whatever but but do you follow what i'm saying it's a way for

00:12:00.960 yeah helping them use what's already in there to focus them so uh and anyway i wanted to share

00:12:08.440 that with you because it's it's i think it helps us to quickly feel alive i think that's a good

00:12:17.480 trick it's probably good when you're doing kind of monotonous household tasks to learn how to

00:12:24.280 appreciate those things it's not so bad it's a lot better than suffering actively

00:12:29.100 mm-hmm yeah absolutely so so but getting back to you uh we talked about the through line and then

00:12:37.180 i wanted to you to speak about what you feel your purpose and calling in life is and what it is that

00:12:44.560 you're here for and what it is that you want to give to the world and how you want to leave the

00:12:51.220 world, uh, after they've been involved with you? Okay. Well, I actually do have an answer to that.

00:12:58.740 So, uh, I, I had a massive transformation with dietary change, right? I went from

00:13:06.820 almost dying the, from dying, like really, um, hip replaced, ankle replaced on like seven

00:13:13.980 medications, some to keep me awake, some to help me sleep, immune suppressants, puffers,

00:13:19.480 like antihistamines just to like live antidepressants painkillers it was bad and those

00:13:28.380 were all prescribed just just to manage symptoms and I completely changed my life with diet which

00:13:35.040 is something that the matter I mean it was complicated like I've been only eating ruminant

00:13:40.160 meat like beef and lamb since 2017 something that people didn't think that you'd be able to do

00:13:46.420 and so it's not it's not that it's not that shocking that the medical community wasn't like

00:13:54.260 hey you should try an all meat diet because nobody thought that um but i think because of

00:13:59.880 the transformation it made for me so i'm in remission i'm off of medications and the only

00:14:04.300 time i have autoimmune flare-ups or if i eat something wrong or if i catch a virus other than

00:14:09.800 that i'm asymptomatic and i've been talking about the diet not because i wanted to be

00:14:15.280 known as a diet person. Cause I was never really interested in like vegan or gluten-free or any of

00:14:21.500 that. It was just like, I'm more interested in books, you know, and stories and learning things

00:14:27.480 than diet. Um, but I've felt like the urge to tell people about this because of how much I

00:14:34.520 suffered and how much of a difference it made to me that I've felt like morally obligated to tell

00:14:39.320 people, even though I don't really enjoy being the diet person. So tell us about your discovering

00:14:44.860 the power and what you really like most about podcasting i really like people like i kind of

00:14:52.740 i kind of also don't like people i don't know it's like i don't like people but i also find

00:14:59.180 people really interesting i find the different way people think very interesting so i've been

00:15:05.300 doing this segment so i'll interview people so i interviewed you and had you on that was a great

00:15:10.420 podcast. But I also do something called opposing views. So I'll talk about a subject that people

00:15:16.900 really have extreme emotions about. So something like abortion, and I'll bring somebody on who has

00:15:24.320 really extreme emotions. That's pro-life someone who has really extreme emotions is pro-choice.

00:15:30.920 And I don't talk to them together because that would be a disaster, right? But I'll ask them

00:15:36.460 the same questions and just have two separate conversations and then show people the difference

00:15:41.720 in the responses. And I just find it unbelievably interesting. Again, I think, um, in the last

00:15:48.560 number of years, our society is split so badly. It's so fragmented that there are people on the

00:15:53.540 right and people on the left that think the other side's evil, like stupid and evil. Right. And 1.00

00:16:00.240 that doesn't quite make sense. So I've been trying to bridge the gap being like, look how

00:16:06.140 you know, look how both of these people can kind of look reasonable, but have completely the

00:16:13.360 opposite views. And it isn't that interesting. So I think I like, I think I like podcasting

00:16:19.120 because I'm able to talk to a lot of people. It's also like, I'm lucky I can talk to anybody

00:16:23.380 basic. I can't talk to anyone, but I can talk to experts in fields that I would never be able to

00:16:29.560 get to otherwise. Right. Like when I was trying to research health things, I was like, well,

00:16:33.660 who's a, you know, toxic mold specialist. And then instead of waiting three months to talk to

00:16:40.820 someone, I can just say, do you want to come on the podcast, which is like sneaky, maybe a little

00:16:44.980 bit selfish, but I figure other people are interested in the same thing. So it's just,

00:16:49.520 I love it. It's a, it's crazy to be able to make money off of having conversations with people.

00:16:54.680 It's crazy. Can I share something with you about, uh, because you triggered in me,

00:17:00.480 my sensitivity and awareness to the divisiveness and, and, and why people so adamantly hold on to

00:17:08.700 points of view. Can I share with you my latest thinking on it? Oh, definitely. So my latest

00:17:14.500 thinking is that people develop psychological adhesions, which is different than a psychological

00:17:23.160 attachment okay because if you go into if you need surgery surgery that saves your life

00:17:30.820 you you may be the surgery may be saving your life but your inner body is not used to being

00:17:37.460 invaded so after the surgery is over you can sometimes develop adhesions between the organs

00:17:43.260 that can that people have to go in and surgically excise and i've also developed something we even

00:17:52.040 talked about it on your podcast, surgical empathy. And I think what happens is when people develop

00:17:58.500 psychological adhesions, reason cannot get through because it's an adhesion. If it's a psychological

00:18:08.120 attachment, you may be able to sort of share with them reasoning steps, and they may be able to take

00:18:16.340 that in but i think the greater the stress in the world the more that people grab onto something

00:18:23.340 and it's like an adhesion i also gave a talk to saudi arabia about seven years ago

00:18:30.140 on overcoming resistance to change and my central hypothesis is resistance to change doesn't exist

00:18:39.980 and i said what exists see if you can feel this what exists is non-rational non-functional

00:18:50.600 self-preservation non-rational non-functional self-preservation and if you think of people's

00:18:57.840 minds as a silo like a silo a grain silo and on the top is competence underneath that is confidence

00:19:07.200 and underneath that is control. So the narrower your competence, but that the world loves

00:19:16.200 and will pay you billions of dollars, like some of our tech CEOs, they're laying and you can think

00:19:23.900 of Elon Musk and you can think of Bezos, think of Steve Jobs. It's I am competent here. I am

00:19:32.120 confident. I am in control. And they will try to pull the world into that silo because it works

00:19:39.760 for them. But the problem is it doesn't work most other places. They're not capable of getting

00:19:45.980 emotionally close to anyone. People do not feel intimate with them and they can't feel intimate

00:19:51.660 to others. But because they have that lane that the world says, I love my Tesla. I love going on

00:20:00.760 Amazon. The world rewards them, but they live in this psychological silo. And I believe they have

00:20:07.840 psychological adhesions, but when they're rewarded so well, they get away with it,

00:20:15.620 but try to be married to one of those people and try to have something other than a conversation

00:20:22.280 that fits in how they grok the world. Forget about it. So I think if you look at people,

00:20:29.720 and I won't get into politics, but you can think of some of the top leaders who are running amok.

00:20:37.880 I think they have psychological adhesions. You can't you can't reason with them in their mind.

00:20:44.420 They're right. And one of the things they cannot stand more than anything is humiliation.

00:20:51.720 So one of my missions in life is is to have the world have more women leaders.

00:20:59.720 because one of the things that distinguishes women from men is some of the male leaders that we see

00:21:07.200 can't stand humiliation. They will do anything to avoid humiliation, even destroy the world.

00:21:16.500 Whereas women who have children are humiliated every day. You're walking around and your kid

00:21:24.460 just don't shut up in the middle of a thing and you get those looks can't you quiet your kid

00:21:30.200 and and i think anyway i don't want to get off on a tangent but i just wanted to share that with you

00:21:36.400 and have you think about it psychological adhesions and and unfortunately if they don't

00:21:43.640 listen to reason that's why you have to go in militarily for me with my suicidal patients

00:21:51.380 they had a psychological adhesion to dying if i just died the pain will go away

00:21:58.360 dying feels like it'll just relieve everything

00:22:02.440 where surgical empathy would go in and if people would feel felt kind of a little bit like you did

00:22:10.820 on our podcast with you when people feel felt there's a little fluidity and they can sometimes

00:22:18.160 let go of their adhesion to death is the only way out. So do any of that make sense? I know I kind

00:22:24.780 of made it more my, my content than yours, but this is a conversation. No, no, it does. It does

00:22:33.420 make sense. I think that I think you're right about people adhering to an idea as some sort of

00:22:42.860 not entirely sure. I can't remember exactly how you put it, but it kind of a safety mechanism,

00:22:47.860 like survival. Right. And that's why, because when you look at some of these people with

00:22:52.380 kind of ideological ideas, or just really stuck to one idea and unable to listen, it does kind

00:22:58.200 of seem like it's an animal in survival mode, right. Where it's like, Nope, I'm not going there.

00:23:03.400 And I'm, I refuse to listen. I'm not listening. I can't go there. I think I, I honestly think I

00:23:08.660 used to be like that more. Um, when I was, and I was younger and I was sicker and I was on

00:23:14.020 medication and you know, there's all that. But when people, um, when people suggested this really

00:23:21.280 sticks with me, cause I changed so much, but when people suggested that I look into alternative

00:23:25.060 routes for, for my medical problems, I pretty much just shut them down. And it was kind of

00:23:31.340 because it would be insulting, right? It was like, well, have you tried diet? And I was like,

00:23:36.760 how dare you? Like, I just had my hip replaced. Have I tried diet? Right. So there's a way to,

00:23:42.520 to kind of have those conversations without being condescending but i do remember times when i went

00:23:47.640 to naturopaths and some of them said hey i think you know you should cut out gluten gluten is going

00:23:51.700 to be a problem and i was so stuck to uh the medical community because i think i'd been in

00:23:57.360 it for so long my dad's very science focused and i was like no that's the scientific way

00:24:02.200 there is no other way i was really stuck to it and i ended up looking into diet because i spent

00:24:09.540 from the ages of like 19 to 22. And I just ramped up and up and up reading and reading and reading

00:24:15.620 scientific papers. And those scientific papers led me to gluten being a potential problem for

00:24:21.600 people with autoimmunity. And so I went to diet the scientific route. And then when I realized

00:24:28.640 the medical system had missed some of these scientific papers, um, then like my entire

00:24:35.320 world exploded. Like it really exploded when I went on the diet and I was like, this isn't going

00:24:39.700 to work. I just went on a very, very low carb diet. So it was like meat and greens. And it made

00:24:43.940 a massive difference in a month to severe crippling. Like I had arthritis everywhere,

00:24:48.240 except for my spine. And it was like a month in and I felt significantly better.

00:24:54.260 And my entire worldview fell apart. So I went from firmly believing, like I used to argue with

00:25:00.840 people in class about beliefs. I was on Facebook arguing with people, debating. And when I lost

00:25:08.980 faith in, when I was like, oh, the medical community missed something, I was like, well,

00:25:13.380 what else? What else am I believing in really strongly that's missed something? And then for

00:25:19.760 a couple of years, I didn't have faith in anything. So it was like, well, the government, do they know

00:25:23.700 what they're doing? Do police officers know what they're doing? Any figure, any authority

00:25:30.820 figure. I was just like, are they real though? Right. And then I suppose you do get older and

00:25:36.620 you're like, well, everyone's a person, whether or not they're in a figure of authority, we're

00:25:41.700 all just people. So I think growing up had something to do with that, but I'd say maybe

00:25:46.640 people who have this kind of adhesion mindset, haven't had their belief systems just shattered.

00:25:53.380 Right. Cause I'm pretty disagreeable. I'm pretty stubborn. And I think I was like that before

00:25:57.720 I had my belief system shattered and it happened a couple of times. It happened when I first tried

00:26:02.720 diet, which was just like a very, very limited paleo diet. Then it happened again when I went

00:26:07.800 to just meat and was like, people can survive off of only eating meat. I thought you were going to

00:26:13.560 die of scurvy. I thought I was going to get vitamin deficient. I was like, what, what is

00:26:17.840 going on? What's real out there? And then I suppose too, when my dad started showing up in

00:26:24.280 the media as this evil alt-right character i was like well that's not my dad like that's not

00:26:30.900 right either i was like is the media lying like is anybody telling the truth so i don't know what

00:26:38.120 was what was it like when you went through that period of a couple years when you couldn't believe

00:26:42.680 anything you know that you were hearing that that everything was suspect and and the more they

00:26:48.300 claimed to be in authority the more cynical you were about you know you know what what's their

00:26:53.360 ulterior motive what was that like to not be able to believe anything it was pretty scary i was like

00:27:01.080 it also coincided when i um i stopped taking all my medication when my symptoms started to go away

00:27:07.620 and i ended up in extremely severe ssri withdrawal so it's hard to differentiate between my belief

00:27:14.660 system shattering and the ssri withdrawal which caused it's unbelievable excruciating anxiety and

00:27:22.460 depression. So it's hard to separate them. But for a number of years, I was pretty scared. And

00:27:29.820 I Googled a lot. I spent a lot of time reading. And if anybody, like anybody, it was very bad

00:27:37.340 at a certain point. If anybody said anything, they're like, you know, walking down the street,

00:27:41.200 I'd have a friend say, oh, this building's, this building's old. It's like from 1936. I was like,

00:27:46.740 is it i can google that so i don't know how enjoyable i was to be around but i did it to

00:27:53.500 everybody um i did it to like friends did it to dates i went on did it to my dad it was like

00:28:01.120 anybody said anything factual and i was like is that even true and it turns out if you google

00:28:06.380 people a lot of it's not true a lot of what people say just they're just saying things they've heard

00:28:11.800 or that their parents have told them and it's not true so what was it like it was scary and

00:28:17.820 time-consuming and a lot of googling i don't do that as much anymore but i'm still skeptical

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00:30:03.940 which is the acronym for this podcast enjoy the rest of this episode let me share something with

00:30:09.800 you and tell me is it okay if i because you trigger things in me that i want to share is

00:30:13.620 that all right yeah yeah of course that were conversational and for some reason or other i

00:30:19.820 am drawn to some to things that are um counterintuitive meaning i never would have thought

00:30:28.520 of it that way but intuitively correct i think that would work you know so the so the psychological

00:30:37.420 adhesions a lot of people would say i never would have thought of it that way but that's probably

00:30:44.620 true the reason they're not open is it's not an attachment where you can reason your way through

00:30:50.520 it's an adhesion you know it's like they're internally it's an adhesion so

00:30:56.340 uh part of what uh you were just uh uh triggering with me in uh in sharing what you've been sharing

00:31:09.280 is uh i wrote a book during the pandemic called why cope when you can heal

00:31:14.020 and when i asked people especially women who were somewhat in touch with their feelings

00:31:20.640 uh thinking of writing a book co-authoring a book called why cope when you can heal

00:31:25.960 they'd stop me and they'd say if only and I'd say if only what they said if only I could heal

00:31:34.280 and I'd say what do you mean they say I cope what do you mean well coping is better than not coping

00:31:43.020 but I I'm not free I I don't feel peace I'm exhausted I don't feel joy I have fun

00:31:53.660 And then when you say to them, do you think you could get through it again?

00:31:57.540 Many of them will look at you flat out there in the headlights.

00:32:00.800 I don't know how I made it through the first time.

00:32:03.420 I don't know why it didn't take me down.

00:32:05.860 I don't think I could do it again.

00:32:08.200 And so one of the things we talk about in the book, and this is what I tell me if this

00:32:13.320 is counterintuitive.

00:32:15.740 And I think some of it was coming out.

00:32:17.560 This is why I was drilling down to your two years of not leaving anyone.

00:32:22.800 So I believe that when we're traumatized, we develop something called the horror, terror, don't panic trifecta.

00:32:32.860 So something is horrifying.

00:32:34.980 The world doesn't know what to do with me.

00:32:36.960 It's not going away.

00:32:38.280 I'm terrified.

00:32:39.140 I can't take it anymore.

00:32:40.600 Don't panic, because if you panic, you're going to freeze.

00:32:44.340 You're going to paralyze.

00:32:45.340 You won't even be able to communicate to people.

00:32:47.280 you know so what happens is we do everything we can to push that away

00:32:52.240 and something that often enables us to push it away is adrenaline and also testosterone so what

00:33:01.820 happens is veterans to push it away the horror the terror don't panic they push it away and

00:33:09.660 superficially they have a veneer of feeling i'm superhuman geez i didn't think i could make it

00:33:15.560 through the next shift. And I, I'm a healthcare worker. I've just been up for 48 hours. That's

00:33:20.460 pretty cool. But inside, you know, something's messed up and the danger and the adrenaline

00:33:27.540 and testosterone, which allows you to make it through, you realize there's going to be hell

00:33:33.140 to pay when the danger goes away. So I think veterans and I think healthcare workers are

00:33:39.840 going to, uh, when the danger goes away, all the stuff they pushed inside and away to survive

00:33:45.440 what we're calling the horror the terror don't panic because you got to function

00:33:51.880 is going to come up and threaten to rip them apart

00:33:55.900 and part of what needs and that's why we call it surgical empathy part of what they need

00:34:03.820 is to safely allow themselves to experience and feel what they could when they were surviving

00:34:12.960 i believe ayahuasca and psychedelics work because often people now there are people who use it

00:34:19.280 recreationally but the people who use it therapeutically they're often control freaks

00:34:24.100 but they're being control freaks is not working for them anymore it's a uh it uh but they can't

00:34:33.580 let go of control because they don't trust anyone and if they let go of control they're going to

00:34:38.100 panic they're going to shatter and so i think what the psychedelics and ayahuasca do is it's a

00:34:46.180 it's a sort of controlled therapeutic psychosis you're going to go in and you're definitely going

00:34:53.340 to be out of control and we're going to walk you through you the throwing up is part of it

00:34:57.580 you know everybody throws up and what's happening is your mind is deconfiguring because it wasn't

00:35:04.820 working the way it's working. And I use the metaphor because I'm trying to create something

00:35:10.920 called guaranteed to blow your mind, how ayahuasca works. And the idea is, if you think of our mind

00:35:19.580 when we're born is a rubrics cube, and think of it being in the wrapper, and it's pristine,

00:35:25.720 and then life messes it up. And we solve it. So it looks like it's in the wrapper.

00:35:30.220 but as life gets complicated the way it looks in the wrapper doesn't work anymore

00:35:36.220 you know life on the outside is different than life inside a womb

00:35:40.140 and if you keep trying to solve it for how it is in the wrapper it's not working anymore

00:35:45.660 and so i think what ayahuasca and psychedelics do is they scramble up that rubrics cube

00:35:52.580 but when they solve it it's a different design than it was in the wrapper

00:35:57.400 and it's a design that you can lean into in your life is this making any sense to you

00:36:08.300 i think so i've done quite a few psychedelics i'm not entirely sure how to think about psychedelics

00:36:14.360 like i almost think about them as connecting you to a spiritual level as well absolutely

00:36:20.260 like yeah they're pretty they're pretty wild and they can be extremely helpful for

00:36:25.420 um trauma if you're ready to kind of delve into it right if you're if you're get if you get to

00:36:33.960 the headspace where you're like okay okay for instance when i was going through that whole

00:36:38.660 thing and in really bad shape after i figured diet out and then went off of medications and

00:36:45.080 then just waited to get better. Um, I didn't do psychedelics for a number of years. Cause I was

00:36:52.260 like, I cannot adding that into the mix right now. Like I, that could go down a really negative

00:36:59.100 route and you don't want to have like, I mean, some people have bad trips and then they end up

00:37:04.540 better afterwards. Like even if it was a negative experience, but I, at that point I was like,

00:37:09.200 with, especially with SSRI withdrawals, like I can't risk it. It's too scary. Um, and it wasn't

00:37:15.000 until I was in a better space, I actually felt better. I'm not saying this works for everyone,

00:37:21.780 but I felt like stable enough. And I was like, okay, there's some trauma really. And there's

00:37:26.680 some parts of myself that I might be hiding that I really need to sort out because you can like

00:37:32.320 manipulate yourself in all sorts of ways and like hide little parts of yourself

00:37:36.640 away so that you don't see them. And I was like, I want to make sure everything's out in the open.

00:37:42.040 and I did a number of pretty heavy dose mushroom trips and it was incredibly beneficial to me

00:37:48.780 I think like I don't think there was any negative downside um and I think I was able to sort through

00:37:56.260 some problems that would have stayed hidden for a long time um psychedelics are really wild I think

00:38:03.360 that they they definitely need to be used in a therapeutic setting and people need to do more

00:38:07.940 So as you remember, tell me if this fits your trip, because I've been trying to explain it to people in a way so that you there may be a way to do it without the mushrooms.

00:38:20.300 But can you relate to this, that you took them, you were in a more of a mental, healthy, less fragile state than you've been before.

00:38:30.640 So you knew that. And what happened is in the middle of it, your mind, as you know it, it's almost like it it decoupled the things that you believe that you you were adamant about.

00:38:46.580 You weren't so adamant about, but it was OK. And things just started being loose.

00:38:52.820 And but you were somehow OK because you were mentally healthy enough to not go off the deep end and never come back.

00:38:58.960 And what happens is they were they were they were loose.

00:39:04.520 But then when they came back together again, here's the metaphor.

00:39:08.520 I remember someone I know came in and she said, this is what psychedelics did for me.

00:39:16.460 She said, psychedelics work like a plumber.

00:39:19.300 And I said, what do you mean?

00:39:21.000 and she said my mind is like plumbing that works but it doesn't flow it's like my mind is jammed

00:39:31.720 together and i make it through life but it doesn't flow and psychedelics rip out the plumbing

00:39:37.780 and then the plumbing gets reassembled organically from a place that's more

00:39:46.680 organically cohesive inside yourself and when you come out the water flows

00:39:54.280 but before the trip uh if you haven't had psychotic breaks and you weren't thrown in hospitals

00:40:02.340 uh it's like your mind is plumbing but it just it just doesn't work it creaks it's

00:40:08.520 and and maybe it was assembled because of childhood trauma or who knows what

00:40:13.300 or disbelief in authority figures, but the psychedelics rips up the plumbing and then

00:40:20.460 reassembles it in a natural way. And you can just exhale and feel like life's going to be okay

00:40:29.060 without having to make sure that you make it okay. Yeah. Okay. I like that. I think I agree.

00:40:36.260 I agree with most of that. I definitely agree with the feeling that it gives you afterwards

00:40:41.840 that you don't have to control everything that things are just going to work out. Like it really

00:40:46.980 does. Uh, it really does leave you with a sense of, I don't have to control everything and almost

00:40:53.700 like God's will, but psychedelics. So I, I definitely had had that. And then for reorganizing.

00:41:03.900 Yeah. I mean, I've, like I said, I've had really positive experiences with it. Like for me, I,

00:41:08.820 they made me at that time they made me more loving so I had more empathy towards other people so

00:41:14.680 there were people that I was like this person's kind of annoying right because there are people

00:41:18.300 that are like you don't get along with very well like that person's kind of annoying or I don't

00:41:22.420 like that person that and it's not like I was like actively mean but I had one experience where

00:41:28.500 I saw every relationship in my entire life and how I was contributing negatively to each of

00:41:34.960 those relationships I was like oh I'm doing that like I'm contributing negatively into the world

00:41:44.680 that way and it wasn't even judgmental like that's the I was the interesting thing it wasn't

00:41:50.560 you're a bad person for doing for acting that way it was more kind it was like here's how you're

00:41:58.440 acting badly towards other people um that's wrong and then i was just like well i'll just stop then

00:42:05.560 and so it was just like pretty simple it was like i didn't know that i feel really bad that i was

00:42:11.020 contributing negatively to some of these relationships and i'll stop now and i'm sorry

00:42:15.020 and then it was you know forgiveness and they're just they're just they're crazy

00:42:21.060 so i want to throw here's another word to throw into the mix that i'm hearing just like i gave

00:42:27.740 you the word, uh, determination. I think a non mental health word is impatient. I was exceeding

00:42:36.540 when I was annoyed, I'd be impatient and something about it enabled me to be more patient. I didn't

00:42:43.440 have, they didn't have to agree with me. They didn't, they didn't have to fit a category. They,

00:42:48.160 they could just be different from the way I see it. And I was just more patient with it. Whereas

00:42:54.360 before, it's almost like if it didn't fit a certain kind of pattern or belief, I got

00:43:01.080 annoyed, but I was able to kind of just let it, let them be the way it is.

00:43:07.620 Oh, I like that.

00:43:08.740 I like that.

00:43:09.320 Okay.

00:43:10.140 Determined, determined and more patient.

00:43:13.340 And it is, it's actually more accurate too, because it really is.

00:43:17.280 That is getting frustrated or you're talking to somebody, you're like, why don't they understand

00:43:22.200 things the way I understand them?

00:43:24.360 you know what's going on there and it is really patience i like that so so here's something you're

00:43:30.780 going to do on one of your podcasts okay um and because it's such a good podcast um

00:43:38.380 see if you can get paul mccartney on oh no way well no part no but part of what you're going to

00:43:46.500 do and maybe you can leverage your dad is we want to have you on or you can say this is you

00:43:53.400 Paul I want to have you on because you the Beatles did a song called let it be

00:43:59.760 speaking words of wisdom let it be yeah and I'm discovering that that's what I'm learning to do

00:44:09.080 and it's making me a better person and we'll play the song and let's have a conversation about it

00:44:17.400 because it seems like the more people are trying to control other people,

00:44:22.500 the worse the relationships are. And so listen to the song,

00:44:28.680 see if it resonates with you. And then, then, you know,

00:44:31.040 you call all your leverage cards. I think you could pull it off.

00:44:35.740 In fact, I know someone I could get an introduction to him.

00:44:39.640 I believe if you can't get one yourself. Okay. Okay. Well,

00:44:43.400 I'd be interested in that. Let it be. That's a great song.

00:44:46.560 i'm all for that yeah listen to it listen to it so something i something i sometimes do i did this

00:44:52.400 when i had your dad on the podcast as i sometimes speak to my listeners who will listen to this

00:44:59.180 podcast if you're listening to this or watching it if if we put up video excerpts very much like

00:45:09.460 her father.

00:45:16.180 Michaela's not trying to be controlling.

00:45:20.000 Her intentions are not to run over you.

00:45:24.080 What she's saying is, hey, I've had kind of a, I've had kind of a traumatic life and

00:45:29.200 I've been searching for ways that will work for me.

00:45:33.160 and uh in the search put me uh looking at things differently than conventional ways

00:45:41.940 but it worked for me and so i wrote it up but uh i'm not here to tell you uh i'm a know-it-all

00:45:51.480 and you don't know what you're talking about i'm just saying you know life's been pretty challenging

00:45:56.320 and when i tried to solve it following conventional approaches i didn't get much relief

00:46:02.860 and what i'm discovering is how i got relief and it seems that i have a platform so i'm sharing

00:46:10.480 with you how i got that relief you know i put it into a book i'm not saying you're wrong if you

00:46:16.280 eat whatever you're eating i'm just wanting to share it and and i remember when your dad was

00:46:22.220 on my podcast and one of the things i pointed out to my listeners he's not saying empathy is bad

00:46:29.440 what he's saying is to just be give unconditional empathy that everything your child does is

00:46:38.240 wonderful is setting them up to fail yeah you know uh you know and you don't want to set them

00:46:45.120 up to fail but if you make everything they do wonderful they can't learn and the world's not

00:46:52.280 going to treat them that way and don't do that but but of course you know listeners will take

00:46:58.600 something and they will run with it the wrong way. So please, if you're listening to this,

00:47:05.320 re-listen to when I had Michaela's father, Jordan Peterson on, because their intentions

00:47:13.400 are to help the world. They don't have the intent. They don't wake up saying,

00:47:19.320 how can I make the world worse? It's the opposite. And just like Michaela understood

00:47:26.880 after she did some psychedelics and some work,

00:47:30.800 I might be seeing the world not the way it is.

00:47:36.500 I might be impatient.

00:47:37.940 I might be a little bit unforgiving.

00:47:40.460 I may be running into people who are actually forgivable,

00:47:43.380 but I have an unforgiving streak.

00:47:45.820 And my unforgiving streak, you know, sometimes screws things up.

00:47:49.700 You know, I got to do something about that.

00:47:51.740 So please, if you're listening in,

00:47:53.540 know that her intentions match her behavior a lot of times people have intentions

00:48:03.660 and then people and people misread their behavior but i think your intentions and the intentions of

00:48:10.140 your dad are great so where can be mark well no the world the world i wouldn't say the world

00:48:18.140 needs to know more about you because they know a lot about you but they need to see you through

00:48:23.280 the lens of your wanting to be helpful as opposed to your just gratuitously wanting to stir the pot.

00:48:31.760 Yes. I don't want to stir the pot. I don't particularly mind controversy, so I'm not

00:48:36.840 adverse to stirring the pot, but no, I just want people to not suffer as much as they do.

00:48:42.820 Life is so hard. Like if you're not actively suffering, you should just rejoice. Just party

00:48:49.440 it up that day. Like, yay, I'm not suffering today. And so any way to reduce that amount of

00:48:55.420 suffering, that's what dad's trying to do too. And he does talk about how empathy he like,

00:49:01.320 he does sometimes get quoted as saying empathy is bad, but he's so compassionate. It's crazy.

00:49:07.780 Like when he has people come up to him on the street saying, you know, your work has helped me.

00:49:12.600 He'll just cry. Like, cause he feels things like, so it's definitely not about controversy.

00:49:19.440 it's definitely not about controversy. It's about trying to, you know, do what you think

00:49:25.180 will reduce suffering in the world. And I think you're doing it. Well, thank you. Thank you. So

00:49:30.360 the best place for people to find out more about you is YouTube, probably my podcast. So you can

00:49:37.600 type in Michaela Peterson and that's M I K H A I L a Peterson on YouTube. And then I'm on

00:49:45.180 Instagram, same thing, Michaela Peterson. And I have a website, Michaela Peterson.com. And if

00:49:50.640 people are interested in the diet, I have lion diet.com and everything on there is free. And

00:49:56.720 it's just information about what I've learned and how I've put myself into remission. So that's

00:50:01.660 where you can find me. I love that. I love that. So thank you for listening in. Thank you for our

00:50:08.840 finally finding the time um uh i'm at your service if i can ever be of any help uh and that

00:50:17.240 goes to you my listeners and uh thank you for uh subscribing that seems to help and do write

00:50:25.320 reviews at apple podcasts tell us how we can do an even better job if if we're not uh if we're

00:50:32.860 not connecting with you tell us how we can connect even better and until next time everybody take

00:50:37.840 care, take care of yourself and be be kind to everyone.

The Mikhaila Peterson Podcast - May 05, 2022

147. My Backstory Interview from Mark Goulston

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