The Mikhaila Peterson Podcast - Tammy and Jordan Peterson： Love and Divorce Advice, Overcoming Hardships and Plans for 2024 ｜ EP 197

00:00:00.000 I think you have to negotiate with your husband, first of all.

00:00:02.800 You have to negotiate when you're going to have a date.

00:00:05.320 Why did you assume this was about sexual submission?

00:00:07.800 I didn't. I thought we were going to dance.

00:00:11.440 Mom wins that round.

00:00:12.840 Thank you. Good one for you. Good one, Tammy.

00:00:18.400 Everybody is going to have something wrong with them

00:00:20.800 in relationship to the pursuit of what's best.

00:00:23.320 Like, I'm not smart enough, I'm not attractive enough,

00:00:25.580 I'm not charismatic enough.

00:00:26.920 I don't have enough money.

00:00:27.960 I don't have enough influence.

00:00:28.960 like there's going to be impediments and god's response is i don't care what your impediments

00:00:33.120 are you can overcome them that's your challenge how do you overcome bitterness and contempt in

00:00:37.200 a relationship you'd have to figure out every single problem right you'd have to go down to

00:00:42.560 the bottom with every single problem if we have an interpersonal issue let's say it's come up a

00:00:47.680 couple of times so that i i can be sure it's there neither of us are going to want to broach it

00:00:52.880 particularly and the reason for that is that as you delve into something like that you go into

00:00:57.520 the inferno often when the hero sees the monster the first time he'll turn tail and run usually

00:01:03.680 what'll happen is people will cry insult each other or they'll further the fight or they'll

00:01:08.480 run out of words and they just stop before they actually solve the problem and then you might ask

00:01:14.480 why are people afraid to delve into it i was out with my friend john peppered who was an ornery

00:01:23.840 guy who my first boyfriend john was very funny very tough kid like very very ready for something

00:01:30.160 charismatic kid and uh we were on some gravel and i had my hand down on the gravel for some reason

00:01:37.040 and he stopped the 10 speed on my hand and he did it by accident but it tore it up pretty badly so

00:01:42.080 all three of my fingers were torn to rat and when we started to fight andrew cox the first thing he

00:01:49.920 he did was grab my oh twist the hell out of it and um anyways that ended badly and i got harassed

00:01:59.780 about being beat up by this little rat of a kid for like a year so which was definitely that's 0.77

00:02:07.240 dirty least bit of fun no so now you know yeah well you know what goes around comes around 0.90

00:02:13.300 okay well welcome back to my podcast thank you for being here good to see you good to see you

00:02:21.800 too good to see him in your house and everything yeah wow a house nice podcast studio thanks

00:02:27.680 i spent a lot of time choosing wallpaper like a lot of my life is gone from choosing wallpaper

00:02:33.800 i've seen a lot of wallpaper well i think it was worth it it's good to have your priorities right

00:02:38.000 thanks jordan actually chose this one i like it yeah well thank you though jordan

00:02:43.220 so i took a bunch of questions from my audience said you guys were coming on and so i think we're

00:02:52.800 just going to roll through as many questions as we can get through which should be like three

00:02:55.780 we'll see we'll see carrie you ready we're going to start with an easy one uh bob dylan or tom

00:03:01.820 Waits hmm well Jordan would say Tom Waits you better say Tom Waits I'd say that's a hard one

00:03:11.800 but we do listen to a lot of Tom Waits and not so much Bob Dylan so you're saying middle of the

00:03:19.160 road but but Tom Waits I'm going with Tom Waits Bob Dylan Tom Waits has way more good songs like

00:03:24.820 almost every Tom Waits song is good and there's like there's a lot of them and he's profound and

00:03:30.040 yeah he's great and Tammy pointed him out to me just really clear yes yeah when I was a young

00:03:37.800 woman I used to go to record stores and choose records by their covers and I chose a Tom Waits

00:03:44.480 album and uh took it home and put it on and thought wow you would choose this you would

00:03:51.400 choose albums by their cover yeah that's that's funny there was a lot of that in the 70s really

00:03:56.420 yeah well how else were you gonna know oh how are you gonna know you took we bought a lot of

00:04:01.220 random albums everybody's album collection had like a large proportion of duds in it plus the

00:04:06.820 other things that record companies used to do too which was hyper annoying was they put one good song

00:04:12.400 on a collection of like 30 clunkers so we had to make mixtapes too which took a lot of work right

00:04:19.420 because we're recording on cassette tapes so making a mixtape was a many hour job and part

00:04:26.400 of your reputation as a teenager was definitely dependent on the quality of your mixtape we we

00:04:31.500 made mixed cds people don't do that at all anymore everything's just spotify yeah playlist playlist

00:04:37.200 they make playlists that's easy though oh yeah even burning a cd was kind of a pain and you had

00:04:41.980 to download off like lime wire or something yeah well we had to do it with records so you had to

00:04:47.300 your friend's records yeah that's worse so like a good mixtape that was a valuable item you give

00:04:55.620 that to who you have a crush on you had to pick your you had to pick your cassette properly too

00:05:00.080 and part of your reputation as a teenage boy was whether or not you knew the difference between the

00:05:04.260 different grades of cassette tapes they made good christmas presents they did they did mixtapes

00:05:09.140 when we gave cds out as christmas presents for a while mixtapes western blues oh yeah that's right

00:05:15.360 yeah yeah because we collected a lot of old western music in boston because in boston when

00:05:20.260 you were a kid you could go down to the vinyl shops and you know buy records for 50 cents

00:05:25.840 they weren't worth anything and so i collected a lot of old western music and sometimes that

00:05:31.220 was from the covers too because the cheesier the cover the better the song was basically the rule

00:05:36.660 for western vinyl hey guys if you didn't know my dad's going on tour for his upcoming we who

00:05:43.320 Wrestle with God book. If you guys like the biblical series on YouTube you're going to love

00:05:48.160 this. Tickets are available at jordanbpeterson.com and honestly if there are any of the lectures you

00:05:53.900 guys should go to it's one on this tour. It could change your life. Listening to dad's lectures

00:05:58.900 brought mom closer to God and I think that's what he's hoping to do for people. I'm not sure what

00:06:03.920 other lecture you can go to that's trying to deliver that. Mom's going to be opening for him 0.62

00:06:08.380 and hopefully I can come along to some of the shows,

00:06:11.060 but we'll see how baby George and my sleep feels about that.

00:06:14.980 Tickets are available at jordanbpeterson.com

00:06:17.160 for shows in the U.S. starting in February.

00:06:19.540 There are also meet and greet tickets still available.

00:06:22.020 I hope you enjoy this episode.

00:06:23.600 Okay, going in a completely different direction.

00:06:28.600 How to adapt to submitting to your partner 0.99

00:06:30.760 when you're a stubborn, strong-minded woman.

00:06:33.760 I guess that's for me.

00:06:34.940 says the stubborn strong minded woman okay what do you think well I think you have to negotiate 0.99

00:06:43.940 with your husband first of all you have to negotiate when you're gonna have a date and 0.99

00:06:48.460 then you have to honor that and the way you honor that is when the day comes that that's the day of

00:06:54.700 the date you have to make sure you're arrested and it's up to you it's not up to anybody else

00:06:58.780 to take that time it's up to you and why did you assume this was about sexual submission

00:07:04.080 uh i didn't i thought we were gonna dance

00:07:07.440 mom wins that round yeah you do good one for you good one tammy yeah yeah 0.99

00:07:17.600 yeah well that's the idea of submission like part of this strong woman thing here that this 1.00

00:07:24.660 questioner is tangled up in is there's no submission in a relationship if you have any

00:07:28.580 sense nobody submits that's ridiculous well in the in the bible i think she's referring to the

00:07:35.060 in the bible when it says submit yeah but submit in the biblical context is a very complicated

00:07:39.620 notion and it's not just women to men it's men to women too well it's also predicated on the idea

00:07:45.740 in the biblical corpus that if you're married properly your husband has already submitted

00:07:50.920 himself to while in the jewish tradition to the mosaic commandments to the prophets and the law

00:07:56.460 and in the christian tradition that he submitted himself to the ultimate authority of christ and so

00:08:01.620 it isn't that you're submitting to your husband it's that you are placing yourself in a hierarchy

00:08:07.840 that's aimed at the highest possible yeah so between the two of you you're submitting to

00:08:13.240 the marriage yeah and what's best for the marriage and the marriage is a sacrament and

00:08:18.000 that means that it's a marriage under the under the auspices of christ and god and what that

00:08:24.940 means is that you're both aiming up you're both acting in each other's best interests and your

00:08:30.520 own best interest but in the highest sense and that your communication is based on logos which

00:08:38.020 is the divine word which is truth and so if all that is happening there's no submission except

00:08:44.320 except in in a really narrow sense so you're submitting to to what's best yeah you're

00:08:51.000 sacrificing what's lowest to what's highest and that's a submission of sorts but really what it

00:08:55.620 is is a it's a disciplining of your whims because when you say you want something that isn't really

00:09:04.760 accurate generally what you mean if it's a selfish desire is that some whim in you some short-term

00:09:12.360 whim that's only operating for immediate hedonic gratification has got you in its grip and you

00:09:19.800 think well this is what i want it's like yeah that's one way of looking at it but a more accurate

00:09:24.560 way of looking at it is that something in you wants it and you've submitted to that and so

00:09:31.620 you're not supposed to do that and so partly what you do in a marriage if you have any sense is that

00:09:36.960 you help each other organize your wants and needs in a proper hierarchy that's oriented up

00:09:45.360 and then you might ask well what does it mean up you know because that would be the moral

00:09:49.740 relativism standpoint well you know up is a matter of dispute or a matter of contention

00:09:56.420 which is also complete bloody rubbish because up is partly an emergent property of what will

00:10:04.240 sustain your relationship over time so if you're interacting with the same person multiple times 0.92

00:10:11.480 and you submit them to your whims or you use power that whole relationship is going to go

00:10:18.020 south in no time flat they're going to get bitter and resentful and work against you and

00:10:22.300 and even if they do submit they're going to do it begrudgingly and so that's certainly going to do

00:10:28.800 your love life in in about five seconds flat and so you're submitting to a pattern of attention and

00:10:38.160 action that enables you to engage in optimized reciprocal interactions across a very long span

00:10:45.480 of time there's nothing arbitrary about that it's the same thing that kids do when they make a

00:10:50.240 friendship so what kids will do when they come together is they one kid will offer the other a

00:10:57.620 game and the first rule is you offer the game and the second rule is the other person has to want

00:11:05.060 to play that's the negotiation yeah yeah that's the beginning of the negotiation to agree on the

00:11:10.340 game and to get degree on the aim well then you have to see if it's fun to play with that person

00:11:15.220 which means all the micro games within the game are also voluntary and aimed in the proper direction

00:11:20.860 which would be at least keeping the fun going and then at a higher level keeping the relationship

00:11:26.540 going and so then when a child chains games together with a person that's the beginning

00:11:31.680 of friendship so a friendship is a game of games right and then there's an ethos that's associated

00:11:38.960 with the friendship that would have to do with trust and respect that without which those

00:11:43.780 repeated interactions are no longer desirable and so that's all what constitutes up and if you have

00:11:49.780 any sense you submit to that because yeah why wouldn't you if you especially once you understand

00:11:55.220 it and i think there's a lot of talk in the red pill sphere that's very popular online that's

00:12:01.040 if you're a man and you're in a relationship with a woman they should listen to you because you're

00:12:04.900 the man and it's basically as simple as that i see and what you're saying is in the bible it's

00:12:10.460 it's submit to a higher good yeah well the man is supposed to reflect christ but so is the marriage

00:12:16.020 and i don't know if the red pill guys are doing that well they're not doing that if they if any

00:12:20.900 of the submission is based on power because one of the things that's made staggeringly crystal

00:12:26.200 clear in the biblical corpus moses is punished dreadfully for using power even though he's a

00:12:34.060 great leader right he is he is condemned to death before he enters the promised land because he uses

00:12:39.840 power when god tells him to use his voice yeah right and then the pharisees and the scribes and

00:12:46.780 lawyers who are christ's paramount enemies are and that also goes for the romans as well they're

00:12:54.460 at least in part people who use power force and compulsion instead of negotiation voluntary

00:13:02.940 negotiation towards a higher good so the notion that the judeo-christian tradition for example

00:13:10.340 is patriarchal in that it justifies the use of masculine force that's that's utterly preposterous

00:13:16.980 there's nothing about that's that even that's even vaguely true and you see that in part too

00:13:21.940 because well first of all right when the biblical corpus opens one of the first pronouncements is

00:13:27.300 that both men and women are made in the image of god right there's an absolute insistence in that

00:13:31.860 and then you know the feminist critics will say well yeah but eve is cast in a bad light it's like

00:13:36.880 yeah so is adam yeah eve takes the first bite but adam submits to her temptation in a second and

00:13:44.840 then he blames her for his faults which men do to women all the time you know and vice versa i mean

00:13:51.240 we're pretty good at that both ways but and then in the christian tradition i mean christ treats

00:13:56.580 women as of equal value in a radical manner throughout the entire corpus of his ministry

00:14:04.900 which is really when we have any documentation of his actions and he takes a lot of flack for that 0.99

00:14:09.760 so no there's no submitting cool plus it's impossible anyways you try to get a woman

00:14:18.560 to submit like good luck it's just not possible not for very long they're slippery

00:14:24.900 who got jordan uggs i posted a picture for a picture of us for christmas i was like this

00:14:34.020 such a nice family photo and you were wearing your green silk pajamas oh no and that's all

00:14:38.840 anybody talked about yeah it's like but I didn't it didn't even occur to me when I was posting it

00:14:42.980 it's my Hugh Hefner fantasy yeah that that got mentioned a lot I'm sure and then the Uggs just

00:14:47.620 yeah yeah yeah yeah I thought that was funny I was looking through robes and I thought yeah well

00:14:52.660 you know oh this was on purpose green satin that's that's just perfect yeah well you got

00:14:58.660 to have a sense of humor you know he wears them all the time it's not just funny yeah but you like

00:15:06.020 them yeah they're all right yeah see yeah i knew they're soft you know they're nice they're shiny

00:15:11.600 shiny just like yeah i know it's easy to attract a crow yeah okay a bunch of people asked about this

00:15:17.920 uh in different forms but it's about how to have emotional control so a lot of people having

00:15:23.500 trouble controlling emotions so suggestions on how to keep emotions under control pause you know

00:15:30.860 you don't you don't keep them under control necessarily what you do is you notice that you

00:15:35.620 have something that is in discord so you have an emotion about it right so you're responding

00:15:41.040 you're reacting to something emotionally you pause and you and you don't say anything because now

00:15:48.260 you're in a place of the unknown right you're in the place of the unknown and so you have to wait

00:15:54.580 until you can see what the next right thing is to do and um and you can be really out of control

00:16:03.040 upset and the best thing you can do for yourself right then is to breathe and wait and just try

00:16:10.920 to keep it steady and figure out listen and listen so it's negative emotion that people are

00:16:17.940 talking about rather than emotion per se because nobody's that worried about a sudden outburst of

00:16:23.060 good humor or joy so right right so you know although that can get you in trouble but

00:16:27.900 Carl Jung said emotion emerges where adaptation is weakest and that's associated with the idea

00:16:34.340 of chaos and so if we're talking and you say something that disrupts the flow of conversation

00:16:39.760 and causes an outbreak of emotion that reveals some impediment or obstacle to our further

00:16:47.600 communication maybe with regard to the topic that we're discussing or with regard to our broader

00:16:53.300 relationship and the emotion is actually it's an indicator of some element of the territory we both

00:17:02.300 inhabit that hasn't been mapped properly and so the emotion comes up as a warning and it says

00:17:07.860 unknown thing happening unknown and threatening thing happening and then it it doesn't it doesn't

00:17:16.540 it's not necessarily much more specific than that and then it can take a lot of work to figure out

00:17:22.040 exactly what the problem is right and but that's what you want to do is you want to and you don't

00:17:26.380 want to jump to the conclusion for example that you're right and the other person is wrong which

00:17:31.300 would be highly convenient and easy for you and and you can understand why people would want to

00:17:36.080 do that because it's the least amount of effort but the reason you shouldn't do that is because 1.00

00:17:41.940 it's possible that you're the idiot and then you might even ask well even if i am the idiot if i 1.00

00:17:47.220 can convince the other person that they're stupid and wrong why shouldn't i do that and the answer 1.00

00:17:51.780 is well you might be an idiot with other people too and with yourself and so if you don't fix the 1.00

00:17:57.720 problem then you're going to fall into the same hole repeatedly and what the negative emotion is 1.00

00:18:04.700 is actually an alarm system telling you that there's a hole and that is a hole where chaos

00:18:09.700 reigns where things are happening that you don't understand or expect so it's a it's a prerequisite

00:18:17.800 to further exploration it's very common in hero mythology one of the things you see is that the

00:18:23.800 hero will be on a quest and a quest is always for the thing that's valuable and so we're always on

00:18:28.560 a quest because always with every glance of our eye we're on a quest and it's very common in hero

00:18:34.360 mythology which i suppose represents the larger and more dramatic quests that when the hero first

00:18:41.560 encounters the dragon let's say the monster the giant dragon is usually like an image is usually

00:18:48.420 an image of the of nature gone astray and a giant is usually an image of culture gone astray

00:18:54.060 and and so those are the two major quests right to to confront and reconstitute pathological

00:19:02.100 structures of adaptation that's sort of the anti-patriarchy ethos and then to confront

00:19:07.660 nature and and horror in its base form so a gigantic dragon would have aspects of both of

00:19:15.720 those in any case often when the hero sees the monster the first time he'll turn tail and run

00:19:21.760 you see this in the pinocchio story for example too pinocchio goes down into the depths to find

00:19:27.840 god essentially the god that has died in the depths in the most chaotic and dangerous possible

00:19:33.500 place and he's pretty resolute in his determination to do that in an attempt to transform but when he

00:19:40.660 actually confronts the whale in the depths initially it's like hey oh man i'm out of here

00:19:47.860 you know and that's very common and you see that you see that very commonly when an emotion arises

00:19:53.280 is the emotional rise. It's negative. It's anxious. And people's first attempt is to,

00:19:58.560 first reflex is to say, you know, this isn't happening to pretend or to pretend that it's

00:20:04.860 not necessary to delve into it. And then you might ask, well, why are people afraid to delve into it?

00:20:11.060 And this is where you can learn to understand something like Dante's Inferno.

00:20:15.700 So if we have an interpersonal issue, let's say it's come up a couple of times so that

00:20:22.980 i i can be sure it's there it's not just some random fluctuation in your mood or that you were

00:20:28.320 hungry or that i was hungry you know something trivial it's happened a couple of times so i know

00:20:33.360 there's something there okay well neither of us are going to want to broach it particularly and

00:20:39.540 the reason for that is that as you delve into something like that you go into the inferno

00:20:44.480 so dante illustrated hell nine layers with some terrible thing which was satanic at the bottom

00:20:52.180 right sort of evil itself and if you take any issue that produces negative emotion like an

00:21:00.060 issue that actually exists and you decompose it completely you'll go all the way to the bottom

00:21:06.100 right and and part of the reason for that is that like anything threatening is reflective of

00:21:15.080 threat and vulnerability itself right so it's like it's a single manifestation of something

00:21:21.080 central and a relatively trivial manifestation maybe there's many but if you delve into it

00:21:26.840 deeply enough you come up against the problem per se one of the things you find with people

00:21:31.920 if they have an interpersonal conflict and you delve deeply into it you often find an active

00:21:38.480 betrayal at the bottom someone betrayed them at some point and they have a memory of that

00:21:43.580 right and you could think of that as a semi-trauma depending on its depth but they'll have a memory

00:21:48.500 of that and dante put the betrayers at the bottom of hell and the reason he did that was because

00:21:56.020 human interactions that iterate across time are dependent on trust and what someone who betrays

00:22:01.800 you does is entice you to trust them so they take your best instincts because trust is a form of

00:22:08.700 courage and it's a predicate for society and then they turn it against you right and so right right

00:22:15.720 right so threat emerges you get negative emotion if you deep dig into it you spiral down down down

00:22:24.120 down down until you get to the bottom of things and that's what people say i'm going to get to

00:22:29.280 the bottom of this right yeah well jesus sometimes man that's a long way down and and people just

00:22:36.780 can't stand it you know because they'll start talking to each other and they'll go down one

00:22:40.700 rung at a time and every time they go down because they're getting closer to the ugly truth more and

00:22:47.160 more emotion emerges and usually what'll happen is people will cry or they'll insult each other

00:22:52.360 or they'll further the fight or they'll run out of words and they just stop before they actually

00:22:57.600 solve the problem it takes a lot of fortitude to get to the bottom there was there was so vert so

00:23:05.140 one more thing Virgil guides Dante through the inferno and that's a kind of

00:23:12.460 a reflection of the idea of the Holy Ghost so the Holy Ghost element of the

00:23:18.220 Trinity the Holy Ghost is the spirit of truth that's a good way of thinking

00:23:21.940 about it scientists who observe their data sets properly are guided by the

00:23:27.660 spirit of truth otherwise they they just twist and bend the data to suit their

00:23:32.320 career for example so imagine that you're oriented towards the truth okay so now you have an aim and

00:23:38.280 that calibrates your emotions and it calibrates your judgment and so if you're trying to mediate

00:23:44.760 an interpersonal dispute and you have the right goal in mind so the right goal might be peaceful

00:23:50.820 continued productive generous harmonious existence right then your emotions will calibrate so you can

00:23:57.880 tell when the conversation is deviating from that aim and if you're forthright in your aim you can

00:24:04.220 use your judgment to descend down and you can stay oriented while you're doing it yeah and plus it

00:24:09.820 isn't so personal then because you've decided that the aim is truth yeah then what you bring to truth

00:24:17.580 is uh subordinate to that and it's it's less focused on you as an individual because you are

00:24:26.380 a collective of people who've all made the similar errors over well you're also not trying to

00:24:31.940 demonstrate your moral superiority while trying to solve the problem because that won't go over

00:24:36.200 well so that dissent even if it's between two people has to be a dissent that's predicated on

00:24:44.300 mutual humility if you're a therapist for example and you're guiding someone through that there's a

00:24:49.020 very high probability that you're going to encounter all sorts of terrible things about

00:24:53.040 yourself even as a therapist while you're walking the person down that pathway and you have to do

00:24:58.820 it with especially as you go deeper and deeper you have to do it with extreme care and you know

00:25:03.480 you can imagine that well if you're a therapist for example maybe you want to show what a good

00:25:09.760 therapist you are and so you want to take over the process you know that's just a sin of pride

00:25:14.680 it'll take you off the course and then especially when you start to get deeper into things you'll

00:25:20.000 be in real trouble because the deeper down you go the higher the price you pay for any sin that

00:25:26.320 will knock you off the right path you have to step carefully if you don't have an air purifier get

00:25:32.660 one it's like dieting for your lungs except it's easier than dieting we're breathing in so many

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00:26:43.820 large but that's linked in the comments enjoy the rest of this episode there was another question

00:26:49.480 anyway that had to do with this which was how do you overcome betterness and contempt in a

00:26:53.140 relationship which is you have to like you'd have to figure out every single problem right you'd have

00:27:00.960 to go down to the bottom with every single problem yeah well yeah i think no no well well

00:27:07.180 you i would take i would take the most uh recent the most recent first start with the recent one

00:27:13.420 the most the most recent and that that stand out for you as problems so outline all of those

00:27:19.440 and when you've gone through all of those then maybe a few months later you'll want to go again

00:27:26.920 then this time you'll go deeper and maybe further back in your history and so you don't do it i

00:27:32.180 wouldn't if you did it all at once it would it'd be a very long time and exhaustive would be too

00:27:38.120 difficult so well also there'll be classes of problems like you have to eliminate all of the

00:27:46.240 issues but that doesn't mean you have to address every single thing that happened because there'll

00:27:50.640 be classes of things that happen and so now so especially as you go down you'll notice well that's

00:27:56.480 that's what going down is noticing the classes that's exactly it so imagine there's a lot of

00:28:01.340 individual occurrences right but then if you go a level down you can see well these five

00:28:05.880 occurrences were part of this so now you go down one level and you see there's this clump and this

00:28:10.640 clump and then you go down another level and you say oh these two clumps are this clump right well

00:28:15.540 then you can go down this is kind of what psychoanalysts do instead of behaviorists the

00:28:20.000 behaviorists will stay on the periphery and deal with things one by one like very minute practical

00:28:25.340 specific issues the psychoanalysts will go deeper and say these 20 things are a reflection of this

00:28:31.980 underlying concept which could be implicit or unconscious because some of this is a delving

00:28:36.800 into implicit or unconscious structures sometimes those are revealed in dreams or in fantasies so

00:28:42.940 you do have to address everything that's between you in a relationship but that doesn't mean you

00:28:49.380 have to go through every bloody thing that ever happened in the whole relationship you do have to

00:28:54.180 solve see the psychoanalyst would have called those clumps complexes and sometimes when you go

00:28:59.820 down into the substructure of someone's psyche you'll find you know that they have a key problem

00:29:06.340 well with the world like i had one client for example who really was paranoid about authority

00:29:13.160 like really verging on on true paranoia well when we got to the bottom of one of her experiences

00:29:20.620 she told me a story about having been put in a hospital when she was five

00:29:26.040 and being subjected without her parents being around because at that time

00:29:31.900 parents weren't allowed to visit their children in hospitals because the doctors at least said

00:29:37.520 that they felt that the continued separation was worse than just one separation so yeah well it

00:29:42.900 was very self-serving of the physicians but in any case that was her situation she had a sadistic

00:29:48.920 nurse oh no right so she was just tortured in the hospital by this sadistic nurse and so that

00:29:54.740 permanently destroyed her trust in institutions and fed a paranoia that infected all of her

00:30:01.200 relationships yeah i get so yeah yeah well sure you can see you can see exactly how that would

00:30:06.640 happen now hypothetically if you can go down there and address that fundamental distrust then all of

00:30:14.120 the specific manifestations will also disappear but it's very complicated because see as you go

00:30:21.680 down to the center you're dealing with more and more archetypal issues so one of the things you

00:30:28.520 could say about the situation she was in was that she was archetypally confronting the evil uncle of

00:30:34.700 the king the evil brother of the king so every hierarchy has a shadow the shadow is what the

00:30:42.440 left-wingers always point to it's all about power it's like no it's only all about power when it

00:30:48.360 gets corrupt it's a very important distinction but the claim that power can corrupt and twist

00:30:54.240 and bend and that it might even be the primary dementing phenomenon that's dead on right well

00:31:01.780 so she encountered a negative manifestation of authority it's the same as the evil uncle it's

00:31:07.700 scar in the lion king fundamentally or the evil advisor of the like jafar in in in what is it

00:31:14.320 aladdin yeah that character's everywhere the evil advisor of the king who wants to be king himself

00:31:19.560 luciferian intellect usually that utilizes power well that's what she came up against when she was 0.99

00:31:24.900 five that nurse used authority to she support she subordinated authority to whim she was sadistic 1.00

00:31:36.240 she enjoyed hurting other people and she used her authority to do that and so that five-year-old kid

00:31:41.360 came face to face with something that's like darkly evil and it it that was the trauma and

00:31:48.140 most people are traumatized are traumatized by malevolence right by by like the voluntary desire

00:31:53.820 to hurt she certainly encountered that she didn't know what to do about that when she was five

00:31:57.400 so it really put a warp in her whole life i feel like like you said a lot of people

00:32:05.720 encounter this and that's what traumatizes them what are you at what point is what you experience

00:32:13.000 reality though so say i mean there are people in positions of authority that abuse authority

00:32:18.360 we've obviously seen that in the last number of years with the government overreaching and things

00:32:23.220 uh so at what point is at what point do you just a view off i think i have an issue with this

00:32:30.040 like if i see people in positions of authority particularly in the medical industry the mainstream

00:32:34.120 medical industry i think you've been taught to think you know everything and that makes you more

00:32:38.900 dangerous than the average person right well what point is that just true more often than not well

00:32:45.960 that's a constant that's a constant what would you say uh challenge to judgment right i mean

00:32:55.000 the the general rule you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water this is part of the

00:33:00.580 problem with populist conservatives you know when when when a populist conservative gets up and says

00:33:07.800 all the institutions are rotten like he's that far away from like a post-modernist radical and so

00:33:14.540 you're always separating the wheat from the chaff in your evaluation of authority structures and

00:33:21.320 partly what you do is differentiate them you know you might say well the whole medical profession

00:33:25.180 is corrupt but you don't actually believe that you meet doctors from time well so

00:33:29.900 you have to differentiate your view and that's complex to become uh you have to become informed

00:33:38.260 you have to become more and more informed if you have that view because the view is vague

00:33:42.680 right so when i was 17 i was working in a pool i needed to uh there was a rule that was being

00:33:51.300 not followed these little kids were too short to be in the pool so the pool was too deep and I

00:33:56.720 didn't want to let them in without extra people in the pool and I asked the schools to to give

00:34:04.180 me extra people the next week they came and they didn't bring them and I closed the pool

00:34:07.860 and the the town council called a meeting and they called me in and they asked me why I turned

00:34:14.600 the school away and I told them why weren't you picking up kids out of the pool yeah well there

00:34:19.600 were kids that were, you know, when little kids can't, when anybody can't swim and they get under

00:34:24.520 the water, they just look at you because they don't know what to do to get back up. So they

00:34:28.800 don't move their limbs. They just look at you. So here we were on the deck going, that one's

00:34:33.560 underwater, that one's underwater. And I thought like, this is not a good idea. And I'd worked in

00:34:40.380 that pool, but I hadn't worked with these little kids at school time. So I hadn't realized just

00:34:47.120 how deep it was and how dangerous it was and it was an old pool built in 1967 when the last expo

00:34:53.240 was on they built swimming pools all through Canada yeah in all the little towns anyway I

00:34:58.660 went to the town council meeting and I said that I couldn't run the pool the way that they wanted

00:35:05.460 me to run the pool I needed this safety measure put in place and they said well they didn't they

00:35:11.660 didn't think that that was a reasonable request and asked me to just run the pool the way they

00:35:15.880 wanted to and I said fine you can sign a paper telling me the way you want me to run it and I'll

00:35:22.220 go back and I'll run it that way just to try to bring it home to them but now okay so you're

00:35:27.220 one of the counselors said said to you he was annoyed that he was being put on the spot and he

00:35:32.260 said you'd let some of the one of those kids drown just to get us right so and I was 17 and I quit

00:35:39.480 my job because i felt um well i was i felt betrayed right and that betrayal made caused

00:35:47.920 cynicism for government establishments so i didn't vote i for quite a while i didn't want anything to

00:35:57.840 do with any government authority of any kind and that went on she was always annoyed if you know

00:36:04.000 if i evinced any sort of political ambition yeah and she would say things like it's all like the

00:36:10.680 small town no i would say i'm going to become a cartoonist and do caricatures oh i remember that

00:36:17.560 that's fine well that that was amusing but but in the same but it was also to your point she was

00:36:23.700 also right yeah like the corruption she saw at that small town level that yeah that cynicism

00:36:30.340 that unwillingness to to think adore well to adopt proper responsibility the willingness to

00:36:37.640 throw her under the bus because this actually became a bit of a scandal did your dad write

00:36:42.040 the newspaper no i wrote him and the mayor wrote right you and it was published in the newspaper

00:36:47.560 yeah right right wow yeah yeah yeah right right so now so but tammy's observation that the

00:36:54.480 corruption that she saw in the local council was the same as the corruption at every level

00:37:00.680 was accurate but the the response isn't well you know everyone entire political system is corrupt 1.00

00:37:07.340 and needs to be what violently overthrown by idiot rebels or that we should descend into a state of 0.99

00:37:13.020 anarchy or that you don't have to take responsibility on the political front it's like the evil you said 1.00

00:37:18.780 where's the reality the reality is the evil uncle is always there always but then there's a higher

00:37:24.860 reality than that even which is the evil uncle that you should really be concerned about is in

00:37:29.220 your heart right the place to address that and this is the one of the fundamental messages at

00:37:36.180 the highest level of the judeo-christian ethic i mean it it definitely points out that worldly

00:37:41.220 power is subject to corruption but then the answer to dealing with the corruption isn't to worry

00:37:46.620 about the corruption the moat in someone else's eye right it's like you're probably not perfect

00:37:53.560 and so if you're concerned about the political system you should get your act together and then

00:37:59.880 maybe you could take requisite political action in a way that wouldn't be contaminated by power

00:38:04.580 and and hedonism right and and the subordination of everyone else to your whim but that's a that's

00:38:10.980 an internal battle you know there's a notion of jihad in islam that's like that there's a jihad

00:38:16.780 that can be conducted in the world it's more warlike against the unbeliever right that can

00:38:22.680 easily translate into kind of like a psychopathic warlikeness but there's a spiritual jihad that's

00:38:28.460 an inner battle that's akin at least in principle to the judeo-christian insistence that the

00:38:34.740 fundamental moral struggle is in the soul right not in the political landscape or even deeper that

00:38:42.280 the political struggles are actually reflections of battles that should be conducted in the soul

00:38:49.020 but aren't being and are then therefore externalized so in your marriage you'll hit

00:38:55.080 bumps with your husband say that repeat and you might say well why are there repeating bumps in

00:39:03.320 My relationship with my husband and the answer is well

00:39:06.640 there's a knot in your soul or in his that hasn't been untied and

00:39:11.300 So because the person in whose soul that not exists hasn't taken the time to untangle it

00:39:17.620 It makes itself manifest in the world as conflict and that is how it works

00:39:23.720 And so it's useful and this is this has to do with prayer. I suppose with confession as well

00:39:29.740 well one of the things that's very useful if you're fighting with your whoever your daughter

00:39:35.200 your brother your sister your your wife you want to figure out what the hell you're bringing to it

00:39:42.860 you know and you don't do that in a false humility i'm parading my moral virtue because i'm so good

00:39:49.080 at discovering my flaws sort of way it's like you got to be afraid of that in the proper way it's

00:39:53.480 like do you want to have this fight a thousand times or do you want to fix it and if you think

00:39:59.960 through what it means to have the fight a thousand times you get family relationships that are

00:40:05.620 poisoned for decades because people won't because it go down to your children that that's the way

00:40:11.480 to act through your actions and if your actions are filled with say resentment and so that you're

00:40:19.680 that that's what you're showing your kids are learning that oh this is this is the way

00:40:25.620 my mom's relationship is with her sister so that's that's a family relationship oh so then

00:40:33.260 they start looking you know it start imitating it just it just keeps going and going and going

00:40:38.520 you don't you don't want that to go down the generations like stop it now

00:40:42.520 yeah i'm gonna pick something more positive

00:40:49.200 look it is positive it is it is positive i know it's weird but the thing is

00:40:58.020 this is the weird thing about let's say confession you can regard the discovery of a devil in your

00:41:05.880 soul as a treasure because if you find something that you're really doing wrong yeah and you

00:41:10.680 actually understand that it's wrong first of all you'll understand why you did it in the past and

00:41:15.640 that's not nothing but more importantly you can shed it and so it's a very it's one of these

00:41:22.200 moral inversions you know like there's an insistence in the gospel texts in particular that

00:41:28.020 the highest serves the lowest that there's a strange relationship between the highest and

00:41:32.440 the lowest and one of those strange relationships is that in a in a sense there shouldn't be anything

00:41:39.380 more exciting than the discovery of your like the conscious discovery of your own insufficiency

00:41:45.040 because then you can address it and like if you got really good at that what that would mean is

00:41:51.020 you'd be getting rid of everything that is causing you trouble and god only knows what your life

00:41:55.240 could be like if you got rid of everything that you could get rid of right that's a sacrifice

00:41:59.540 that's proper sacrifice and you have to be well that's where humility comes in it's like probably

00:42:06.740 a lot of me needs to go and but in the back of your mind it should also be well that's probably

00:42:12.080 better than all of me just think of all the new right right that's right that's right exactly that

00:42:19.240 yeah yeah what happens when you're freed from that yeah that's the that's the resurrection in

00:42:26.740 the death i think it took me because you both like told julian and i when we were little like

00:42:35.700 tell the truth that's the most important thing you can do is tell the truth but it's really hard

00:42:39.660 to understand and even having you guys as parents it's still really hard to understand especially

00:42:45.300 if you tell the truth and you get in trouble as a kid because then it's pretty obvious like

00:42:48.580 well this doesn't seem to be going well um before you can really think about it or see any long-term

00:42:54.780 repercussions i think it wasn't until i was and then so it was probably i probably knew more

00:43:03.880 solidly that it was important to tell the truth by the time my brain developed i was probably 23

00:43:09.000 where i was like no i've seen the repercussions of lying telling the truth is important but then

00:43:14.960 i didn't realize that also not saying what you thought was also not telling the truth yeah so

00:43:21.200 then it took another it took another like four years maybe so maybe 27 to be like oh okay also

00:43:30.700 all the thoughts i have that i'm not saying that is also not telling the truth and those also matter

00:43:35.920 like just as much or more yeah and so the most common sin like classically speaking the church

00:43:45.420 has held that sins of commission are more important than are more uh deadly let's say

00:43:51.440 than sins of omission yeah so like an outright falsehood is more deadly than avoiding the truth

00:43:57.160 but i i'm very i don't know torn about that because it probably depends what it is well it

00:44:02.800 does but but the problem with a sin of omission is they're a lot easier to rationalize yeah well

00:44:08.920 i don't have to say anything it's like maybe i'd hurt people well you don't run the whole

00:44:13.060 you don't run the whole simulation when you say something like that's well i don't really have

00:44:17.980 to say anything you don't think i don't really have to say anything but i'll be bitter and

00:44:22.740 resentful and i'll play the role of martyr for the next three decades like you just truncate that

00:44:27.080 right and so then you're not even viewing the severity of the avoidance and and you're right

00:44:32.800 about what kids do this is why everyone lies so people lie to gain things that they don't deserve

00:44:39.480 to gain and they lie to avoid paying a price that they need to pay that's probably mostly what i did

00:44:46.000 was to avoid i was just avoiding things that i thought were bad right whenever i lied it was

00:44:51.620 just avoiding like well and it's a short-term strategy yeah and it works in the short term

00:44:56.080 which is part of the reason that it's so attractive kind of it makes you feel bad well

00:45:00.020 that's because it violates your conscience right yeah so and your conscience you can think of your

00:45:05.300 conscience in part as the instinct that calibrates the medium to the long run so let's say you have

00:45:12.760 to admit that you did something wrong because you're being called on it by your parents and

00:45:16.200 there's going to be trouble and now you lie and you avoid the trouble well you violate the conscience

00:45:21.640 because the conscience has learned, it's an instinct as well, it's calibrating the medium

00:45:28.340 to long run. And so it knows that you sacrifice the medium to long run for the present. In your

00:45:34.700 conscience, that's like a definition of what conscience does. It always says to you, you

00:45:39.860 sacrifice the higher to the lower, right? So that's a false sacrifice. That's the kind of sacrifice

00:45:44.760 that Cain makes constantly. And that's why he gets, that's why his life goes to hell. You're

00:45:50.100 called upon imagine there's a hierarchy of value there's something at the pinnacle and there always

00:45:56.600 is because even when you're just looking at a specific object there's something at the pinnacle

00:46:00.220 you're always organizing your perceptions and actions around an aim you're always

00:46:05.120 climbing up a mountain of one form or another always always

00:46:10.140 the the rule is if you if you're in a hierarchy of value that you sacrifice what's lower to

00:46:20.580 what's higher that's the nature of progress a false sacrifice is the reverse and conscience

00:46:26.740 will tell you when you're making a false sacrifice because it says well you might have skirted some

00:46:31.960 trouble temporarily but you're no longer climbing up the proper mountain so yeah so i've been i've

00:46:39.320 been playing in we who wrestle with god in this new book that i'm writing i've been playing with

00:46:43.400 the relationship between what's sacred and emotion playing i suppose the border between

00:46:50.380 biology and theology and so one of the ways that god makes himself manifest in the old testament

00:46:56.900 in particular is as a calling so you can imagine that there are things that grip your interest and

00:47:02.680 make you enthusiastic right and and they they have a kind of autonomy because you find that

00:47:09.120 you're interested in something or you discover it and it grips you and you can go along with that

00:47:13.600 and you can follow that when i wrote maps of meaning that was what i concentrated on most

00:47:17.080 i have a chapter in there called the divinity of interest and i was developing the idea that

00:47:21.180 one of the golden threads that orients you in your life is things that interest you that's the burning

00:47:28.100 bush by the way things that grip your interest you can follow them and they'll lead you uphill

00:47:33.080 but what i've come to understand now because there was no role for negative emotion in that

00:47:37.740 god is like the dynamic interplay between the calling and conscience so the calling says come

00:47:43.900 this way towards the greatest treasure right the treasures in this direction and that'll make

00:47:48.620 itself manifest in different places for different people even though it's all pointing to the same

00:47:52.520 thing but conscience comes along for the ride and says you're deviating from the path you're

00:47:57.620 deviating from the path and so god is the call of conscience and the and the calling it's the

00:48:03.420 interplay between those two things and i'm bringing that up because people they say well i you know

00:48:08.620 there's no evidence for god you know i can't find god god is dead god has disappeared it's like well

00:48:14.360 you're just you don't see the manifestation and you might say well why call that god it's like well

00:48:21.560 try to escape from your conscience and then try to make yourself interested in things you're not

00:48:28.380 interested in you can't do that there's an autonomy about it and it is it a living spirit

00:48:35.200 at some point questions like that devolve into a matter of definition but it's definitely those

00:48:43.360 are both animating spirits the conscience and calling are both animating spirits so for all

00:48:48.760 intents and purposes not only are they alive they're immortal and every and they're shared

00:48:53.420 by everyone so i suppose atheists would just write that off and say that's an evolutionary

00:48:58.640 adaptation right but the problem is a thrive problem is it's not but yeah but it's not a

00:49:05.040 write-off i say that's fine have it your way it's like oh so what you're saying is that those two

00:49:09.700 spirits orient you towards like thriving and maximal reproductive fitness it's like okay

00:49:15.680 same i don't care have it your way the the practical consequences and even the metaphysical

00:49:23.020 consequences are identical we could take the biological perspective it's like fair enough

00:49:28.320 okay so that reflects something fundamental about the nature of being yeah come to it evolutionarily

00:49:35.200 okay doesn't matter doesn't matter these things dovetail and look we do even scientists assume

00:49:44.320 that there's an ultimate unity it's it's part of the presumption of the western

00:49:48.240 enterprise of science is that in the final analysis there's a unity of comprehension

00:49:53.940 there's a unity of ethic and and material reality evolutionary biology and theology will dovetail

00:50:01.580 if they're both laid out correctly they'll dovetail and i think we're very close to that

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00:50:48.820 for 15 off enjoy the rest of this episode you know when kids are small and they go to public school

00:50:55.820 they're taught to learn all they're taught to learn math they're taught to learn social studies

00:51:01.900 they're taught to learn all these different things and to take enough uh the same amount

00:51:06.820 of interest in everything that every that they have to be doing well in all the different areas

00:51:11.700 but i've been reading about uh interest based education where you just follow what they want

00:51:18.980 to do that what they're not what they want to do but what they what gives them meaning so if a kid

00:51:25.140 is really drawn to math or really drawn to art or whatever it is that you capitalize on that and

00:51:32.980 that bringing and keeping that all alive that's what guides you well it's certainly

00:51:40.260 the so there's an upside and a downside to that so the upside is that if you can find out what

00:51:46.300 someone is spontaneously interested in they're motivated yeah right and the reason they're

00:51:52.180 motivated you don't kill the rest of everything because you're making them do things that is more

00:51:57.040 difficult well that's that's that's right well what happens if you use force is that you you

00:52:02.520 decrease positive motivation yeah skinner showed that very clearly with animals which is why he

00:52:07.380 preferred using reward to punishment so you get all sorts of kickbacks if you use force

00:52:12.600 so there was a big movement in the 1960s to orient schools around a child's interest and that turned

00:52:21.080 into child-centered learning and that was one of the pathways to like the post-modernist catastrophe

00:52:26.060 in education but i think part of the reason for that was that if you you can't pursue interest

00:52:32.860 without taking into account conscience it's too positive right there's no shadow to it right and

00:52:39.740 so and i don't know exactly what that means i don't know exactly how to integrate those things

00:52:45.420 like i said well maybe with interest you have to go very deeply into it very you have to do in a

00:52:50.340 disciplined way yeah yeah well you do well so in in this in the exodus story when moses encounters

00:52:55.840 the burning bush he's just doing his normal day-to-day shepherd thing right he's pretty

00:53:00.320 happy his life's going pretty well but something beckons to him from the side it glimmers and and

00:53:05.940 and and and gleams and so he goes to investigate it and as he investigates it he gets closer and

00:53:12.260 closer to it so you can imagine he's getting deeper and deeper into it right as he pays attention

00:53:17.120 he eventually realizes he's on sacred ground and he takes off his shoes so as he pursues what he's

00:53:23.020 interested in and he gets deeper into it he understands that he's approaching what's sacred

00:53:27.900 what's most fundamental right what's what's at the pinnacle or what's at the base either metaphor

00:53:33.700 works and but he continues in his pursuit and eventually the voice of god speaks to him and

00:53:39.640 that's when he becomes a leader and he's an archetypal leader because he stands up against

00:53:43.500 tyranny and against slavery and so the moral of the story is is that if you pursue what you're

00:53:50.020 what calls to you with enough integrity and discipline you will get to the bottom of things

00:53:56.140 and that will make you a leader now it's weird the moses story has got an interesting twist in

00:54:01.240 it too because god speaks from the depths of the burning bush and tells moses that he has to go

00:54:06.820 back to egypt and confront the pharaoh so now he has to go after the evil uncle that's a good way

00:54:10.820 of thinking about it and moses said oh i can't do this and god says well why not and moses says well

00:54:17.600 you picked the wrong guy and god says well you know i know who's the right guy so what do you

00:54:23.500 mean and moses said well i'm like tongue-tied i have a speech impediment i can't speak and god

00:54:28.340 basically says he says something approximating maybe two things that's your problem figuring

00:54:37.000 it out figure it out but there's another implication there which is

00:54:41.200 everybody is going to have something wrong with them in relationship to the pursuit of what's best

00:54:48.880 so standing up against tyranny and again like i'm not smart enough i'm not attractive enough i'm not

00:54:53.300 charismatic enough you know i'm i'm i'm i'm not resilient enough i don't have enough money

00:54:58.800 yeah i don't have enough influence like there's going to be impediments and

00:55:02.820 god's response is i don't care what your impediments are you can overcome them that's

00:55:09.600 right that's right well and yeah you know it isn't also necessarily a weakness you know because

00:55:15.940 it's something you have to contend with but it's going to be something that a lot of other people

00:55:19.900 share now the way moses deals with it is he enlists his brother aaron so this is another

00:55:24.740 great lesson it's like your job is to go stand up against tyranny and to rescue yourself and other

00:55:32.320 people from the habits of slaves and to move towards the promised land and there's a bunch

00:55:36.780 of things about doing that that you're going to be pretty useless at and so you should recognize

00:55:41.520 them but then in recognizing something else happens which is very interesting which is

00:55:45.480 there's a lot of other people around you know you could you could enlist their services and then

00:55:52.240 there's something for everyone else to do and that's also a really useful thing to know

00:55:57.640 to take the kind of messianic mania out of that archetypal idea like if you're seized with the

00:56:05.080 idea that you have this mission you know to free the world from tyranny and to and to decrease 1.00

00:56:09.800 people's slavish habits then that's all on you well that's a crushing responsibility it's a 1.00

00:56:15.220 pathway to kind of manic grandiosity right but if you understand that that's true for you

00:56:21.740 but it's not true for you alone and that there's plenty of things along the way for absolutely

00:56:28.800 everyone else to do with the same degree of seriousness well then you've got the equation

00:56:33.900 approximately right and that can also help you like if you're running an organization it's like

00:56:38.960 it's okay if other people have important things to do too there's no you are not going to run

00:56:45.200 out of important things to do no matter how many you distribute to other people there's going to

00:56:50.920 be plenty of things for you to do right and so that's such a relief to know that yeah i learned

00:56:58.220 that about 20 years ago i guess you know because i'd been dealing with the problem of evil for a

00:57:03.300 long time and it felt like a crushing responsibility especially as i came to understand it more and

00:57:07.980 more deeply and i thought well i have an understanding that appears to be in some ways

00:57:13.180 i wouldn't say unique but unique enough so that when i'm sharing it it has a effect on people

00:57:19.060 thought well i don't know you know like what am i supposed to do about that that seems like too

00:57:23.320 much to deal with and it was at that time too that i realized it's like well if it's too much

00:57:28.060 for you to deal with you're not sharing the responsibility enough like by definition by

00:57:34.620 definition and you know that you've built organizations is that as you scale them up oh

00:57:40.120 you can't grow that's because you do reach your capacity right and you you just you cannot grow

00:57:46.460 unless you enlist help with with other right and then what you want to do is you want to so i talked

00:57:51.900 to uh frank stranak about running magna you know he keeps his factories at a certain size i think

00:57:57.720 it's two or four hundred i don't remember which but what he does is he separate he sets people up

00:58:02.720 with their own independent fiefdoms he says this is yours it's 90 like we're still associated but

00:58:08.760 this is your thing and like if you can make it great and you can grow wonderful yeah that's not

00:58:14.080 it's not a zero-sum game and that's a lovely thing to understand too it's very generous it's a you

00:58:20.860 can operate in the world a very generous fashion once you realize that here's something else that's

00:58:25.400 cool you know I worked with Bob Peel for years Bob was a great graduate supervisor and he was

00:58:31.840 there was a real contrast between him and many other professors because

00:58:35.040 Bob was 100% generous with his ideas like I'd go into his office and talk to him and I did that

00:58:42.140 like twice a week we talked a lot and we would share ideas and I can generate plenty of ideas

00:58:48.280 but Bob could generate plenty of ideas and he didn't care what happened to his ideas

00:58:51.740 and if he had a graduate student who grabbed an idea and then you know came up with an experiment

00:58:57.060 ran with that then they got the authorship and that helped develop their career and but here's

00:59:01.880 something cool and you can you this just makes perfect sense so imagine there's a biological

00:59:08.680 process that's operating within me that's generating ideas okay now and it can grow or

00:59:13.820 shrink okay if it's rewarded it's going to grow and if it's going to grow it's going to produce

00:59:19.020 more ideas and if it's punished it's going to shrink okay so now my attitude is i have no faith

00:59:24.900 in that source fundamentally i think it's exhaustible and so now i'm stingy as hell with

00:59:30.940 my ideas and partly that makes other people suspicious and doubtful and so every time i

00:59:35.840 share an idea something negative happens well do that for five years and even if you had the goose

00:59:41.840 that laid the golden eggs to begin with it's not laying any eggs by contrary by contrast

00:59:47.980 you're a creative person you just give those ideas away freely and you get a tremendously

00:59:53.380 positive response that's a very rewarding response all that does is make that capacity

00:59:58.920 grow and all that happens is that you produce way more ideas that's why christ says that he's a well

01:00:05.440 that's inexhaustible fundamentally that's that's what that's pointing to is that

01:00:10.800 you can't deplete what you have by sharing it properly quite the contrary the better you are

01:00:21.080 sharing what you've been what's been granted to you as a gift a talent the better you are

01:00:26.420 sharing that the more it's going to thrive and that's a great thing to know too because like you

01:00:33.680 couldn't want a better solution than that i think i think i i agree with that in the mostly i think

01:00:41.620 the skepticism i have is i really don't like to see people and this might be i just realized this

01:00:48.220 a couple days ago because you worked with some people and you had a brilliant idea and you kind

01:00:53.220 of gave it to them and they just like took advantage of you and wrecked the idea basically

01:00:58.700 and i think i and i don't know how much that impacted me but i thought about it a couple

01:01:04.260 days ago so it must have impacted me a bit i don't like well it was very unpleasant yeah and i don't

01:01:09.400 like like i think you have to be careful about who you give your ideas to because i don't like

01:01:14.960 seeing beautiful ideas taken by narcissistic people and destroyed yeah well that's the pearls

01:01:23.020 before swine problem and uh so christ tells his followers that they have to be as soft as doves

01:01:29.720 essentially and as wise as serpents and like there is it's it's also in biology that's the

01:01:35.520 that's the cheater problem fundamentally if you have a community of cooperators and you drop in

01:01:40.940 one shark that the shark will take everything and that's the psychopath problem in biology as well

01:01:50.080 and so you do have to share with judgment you have to share wisely and you have to be willing

01:01:58.400 to have to share without ego and without pride because if you're sharing is full then you you

01:02:05.700 won't share in the right moments with the right people well you're also likely to attract more

01:02:11.220 than your fair share of psychopathic responses that way too because if people see that you're

01:02:16.300 sharing for your own self-interest and they're the sort of people who are likely to do that

01:02:21.960 they see your behavior as a justification or you get good people coming but it doesn't go well

01:02:28.280 because it wasn't the right moment for them to even yeah you can't be there's a big difference

01:02:32.860 between being generous and being naive but yeah it's a tricky and there's a big difference between

01:02:37.940 being courageously trusting and naive you know so part of the way that i've conceptualized that

01:02:45.340 and this is very useful for people naivety looks like virtuous innocence but it's not it's just

01:02:52.780 naivety when you're if you're naive you will be burned and you'll be burned to some degree by

01:02:58.560 someone malevolent right so then what happens is you go from naivety to cynicism and it's hard for

01:03:04.620 you to give up your cynicism because there's an element of it that's wiser than the naivety

01:03:08.980 and going back to being naive is just like going back to being an infant it's not an improvement

01:03:14.260 it's a deterioration even though the naivety was trustful and so forth and it wasn't it was just

01:03:20.180 naive naivety cynicism courageous faith right and so courageous faith is i'll cooperate with you

01:03:30.160 and maybe i'll even do it repeatedly but i'm going to keep my eyes open and i know perfectly well

01:03:36.600 that there are snakes around right but that but but the transcendence of the cynicism is once you

01:03:42.480 understand that the snakes are there then you think well i could there's just snakes everywhere

01:03:47.420 i shouldn't trust anyone i should be contemptuous and doubtful about all institutions and that's

01:03:53.880 wiser than naivety especially if it's hard-earned if if the knowledge is hard-earned but it's not

01:04:01.880 the optimized response the optimized and this has been mathematically modeled as well too like

01:04:06.960 because one of the questions is what pattern best maximizes the utility across repeated social

01:04:15.120 interactions and one answer to that is tit for tat you and i are going to play a game i start

01:04:21.300 i trust you i open myself up to betrayal you could betray me and gain a short-term gain

01:04:28.100 you don't you trust me and then we get the thing going now what happens if you betray me

01:04:34.440 the best response is i whack you with proportionate force and then i open the door to cooperation

01:04:41.220 again that's no one has come up there's small modifications to that but no one has come up

01:04:46.880 with a strategy that works better in repeated social interactions than essentially tit for tat

01:04:52.200 tit for tat with with a bias towards no initial cooperation a guy named robert axelrod figured

01:04:59.740 this out he was interested in the emergence of cooperative strategies because it really is quite

01:05:04.620 a mystery right if if you're in a distrustful situation and you distrust me so you so you're

01:05:13.200 not going to act positively to me and i distrust you so i'm not going to act positively towards you

01:05:17.420 then our responses justify our doubt how do we get out of that and how many times do you play

01:05:23.900 that game with somebody when they betray you like how many chances do people get because like when

01:05:29.600 you're a busy person and you have more to lose like is it once or is it twice because i don't

01:05:36.420 think it's three times is quite a few times it's quite a waste of time but my rule the rule that

01:05:41.880 tammy and i've used in our relationship at least to some degree too is like well you know when

01:05:46.660 you're interacting with each other constantly there's going to be variations in irritability

01:05:51.680 you know and so maybe she'll say something to me and i'm snappy and we could do the whole

01:05:56.860 Dante's Inferno thing yeah or we can think well you know maybe he's hungry or tired or and so you

01:06:04.140 have to have some level of writing it off you know and I know and a good rule and I did this with my

01:06:09.480 clients too was like if someone trips over you at work once it's noise it's not data twice it's like

01:06:18.300 then maybe you raise an eyebrow three times you've established a pattern okay right and then you can

01:06:25.140 go to the person well it's also way more effective as a negotiating strategy because then you can go

01:06:29.060 to the person and you can say this happened yesterday and their first response is no it

01:06:35.620 didn't or you're imagining things but then you say well yeah i thought so too but it also happened

01:06:43.740 here and it also happened here and it's like the probability that the person can weasel out of that

01:06:49.960 then is like it's virtually zero and then you can have the then you can have the conversation

01:06:55.080 now you can't get too finger waggy about you did this three times because then there's that moral

01:07:00.040 superiority and the thing the reason you don't want to do that is because you just don't know

01:07:05.680 why the person is doing that you know i talked to this guy on my podcast just quite recently who

01:07:12.980 he was going to shoot up a school when he was a high school student yeah yeah and that's pretty

01:07:20.140 bad and so and it's obviously unforgivable but if you listen to his life you would understand

01:07:30.520 how he got there now isn't that the same for everyone like there aren't i mean do you know

01:07:37.280 of any evil like evil people or people who do evil things that don't have a reason yeah but not

01:07:44.320 everybody goes through immense amounts of suffering and then turns into a psychopath yeah well yeah

01:07:49.980 no that's definitely true there's always reasons for people to be evil but it's you can't use those

01:07:55.840 for for reasons to be evil no no well and that's i well and i think too it's like

01:08:01.560 that's sort of the victim perpetrator yeah border it's like at some point you go from

01:08:07.480 victim justifiably so let's say to perpetrator it's also not that useful to construe yourself

01:08:14.720 as a victim no matter what happens to everyone's a freaking victim well they they're alive life is

01:08:20.600 hard yeah you remember when in grade four when we were learning about bullies i remember at the time

01:08:25.080 i didn't even like this we're learning about bullies and what we learned was well if somebody's

01:08:29.440 bullying you it's because their life is so hard that that's why they're bullying you and you should

01:08:32.940 be nice to them and i was like what i think i also had that you know i was really sick things it was

01:08:38.100 like hard life i know people have hard lives like they they have hard lives doesn't mean you get to

01:08:43.100 be mean to everybody around you right absolutely yeah yeah because you were taught that you

01:08:47.540 couldn't use your illness for an excuse really for anything it's also hard to beat up people

01:08:53.760 if you have arthritis yeah it is maybe i couldn't i didn't have the option to go to no that's not

01:08:59.160 sure because that's not really how girls bully anyway well i think hardship is a it's a challenge

01:09:04.640 it's a challenge to overcome hardship that's what it is doesn't matter well and hardship can make

01:09:10.800 you virtuous just like it can make you vicious certainly yeah well that's why there's such an

01:09:14.860 insistence in the western philosophical ethos on free will there's no determined nietzsche knew this

01:09:21.440 too he said any any situation is susceptible to a multitude of interpretations like there's a

01:09:26.260 postmodern element to that but there's also you say well he was beat up as a kid and that's why

01:09:31.540 he beats his kids well first of all most people beat as children do not beat their kids and you

01:09:37.340 can think figure that out mathematically because if child abuse was deterministic it would spread

01:09:43.500 yeah and everyone would do it and it isn't spread it's dampened and so if you are an abuser there's

01:09:50.840 a higher than average chance that you were abused as a kid but if you were abused as a kid the

01:09:55.840 overwhelming probability is that you won't abuse your children right exactly so it's tricky right

01:10:01.180 because if you go into the history of someone who's psychopathic and they tell you their life

01:10:05.720 story and they're not lying you think oh my god it's no wonder but then you know you meet someone

01:10:09.940 like charles joseph who yeah it was just tortured to death in 50 different ways and decided clearly

01:10:16.540 decided that you know he was going to do everything he could to let that go certainly not to visit it

01:10:22.220 on his children and to try to live a virtuous life you know like everyone backslides and when

01:10:29.060 you backslide and you've been hurt very badly you backslide into you know martyrdom and resentment

01:10:34.940 and no bloody wonder but that doesn't mean it's deterministic how can you tell when someone

01:10:40.880 really loves you well it's in it's in the marriage vows through sickness and through health right

01:10:50.000 through riches and through poor and if you're not going to stay through those trials

01:10:57.040 then there's no left there if you don't want to if you don't want to stay what's it right if you

01:11:04.040 don't want it's also a decision like when when we took our vows it was serious so it was a it was a

01:11:11.440 solemn occasion because i i meant it it was like and i i knew by that time more or less what that

01:11:16.940 meant it's a hell of a thing to say but and i knew that partly from reading jung you know he

01:11:24.820 believed that you couldn't make a marriage work without the commitment like the real full-out

01:11:30.940 commitment because you can just run away from each other then you can't solve your problems if you

01:11:36.260 can run away if the door is open because at some point you'll encounter a marriage problem that

01:11:44.000 looks like the problem is worse than getting divorced like that'll happen and so if divorce

01:11:51.940 is an option you just won't solve the problem and the problem is is that there's a problem of that

01:11:56.980 size in virtually every relationship i mean that's the problem of satan fundamentally like

01:12:02.360 there's just no getting away those problems come up though if you don't pursue what's meaningful

01:12:09.980 in your life if you have sins of omission if you do all those things then that is the consequence

01:12:16.340 of that is that you'll find yourself in a place where you think maybe divorce is easier

01:12:20.780 so you don't want to go there you want to take care of things every week but then at at what

01:12:26.320 point is divorce easier i feel like because there is a point but then but then i feel like okay so

01:12:34.860 with my experience maybe if you get to that point it's because you didn't know the person very well

01:12:39.960 there's lots of reasons you can get to that point and you know i had lots of clients who

01:12:45.440 chose the path of divorce and they often chose the path we've had family members too oh yes

01:12:51.600 definitely when when they couldn't negotiate with their partner now there's all sorts of reasons

01:12:57.380 you might not be able to negotiate with your partner one would be you're not skilled enough

01:13:01.420 as a negotiator another would be they're actually not interested in the or you're not suitable you're

01:13:07.460 just not suitable your personalities are such that you know my sister was pretty i think she's

01:13:13.340 probably pretty agreeable and her husband was super disagreeable and kind of a loner yeah and

01:13:18.400 he didn't negotiate at all yeah and they grew apart yeah that's often that often splits men

01:13:23.960 and women you'll get an agreeable man woman who's quite feminine and a disagreeable man who's quite

01:13:28.740 masculine and they just there's no grounds to communicate you know the guy just goes

01:13:34.080 you know and maybe he's not very articulate you know and there's no moving him and maybe he doesn't 0.92

01:13:40.840 even know how to negotiate because people christ people are so bad at negotiating it's just a 0.99

01:13:45.540 miracle and it's not surprising because negotiation is sort of the opposite of a sin of omission 1.00

01:13:51.720 yeah if you're negotiating you have to confront all the things you want to avoid right now and

01:13:57.080 no one wants that it's so annoying it's like if i'm negotiating with tammy i have to listen to

01:14:02.300 world are problems you know and it's it's ways you're just to not want to bother with that but

01:14:07.940 the problem with that is the problems are there so like I can wish that they weren't there all

01:14:15.920 I want but that isn't going to make them go away so it's way better just to and I really don't like

01:14:20.940 it no but you practice with little things we practice with little things daily things that

01:14:27.000 we negotiate and then if you have to negotiate something that's deep and troublesome at least

01:14:31.220 you've practiced some of it maybe you can do it then see i know that she that she loves me to

01:14:37.660 the degree that she plays along and that's a good definition you know when i went to when we went to

01:14:46.580 um florence tammy went to florence to do a sight sizing course in renaissance art well i played

01:14:54.880 along like wholeheartedly well why well that's like a definition of love you play along with

01:15:03.180 the person you love and play is the right metaphor and we've discovered that more and more especially

01:15:08.480 in the aftermath of our illnesses like we're we're bet we've always been pretty good at playing along

01:15:14.480 with each other because we played together as kids like that's a pretty standard pattern that

01:15:18.520 helped probably yeah definitely definitely we learned that we could play along with each other

01:15:23.620 when we were very little and that was very very positive thing like that was disrupted in

01:15:29.620 teenagehood for you know any number of reasons but you know we've had very serious conversations

01:15:38.300 in the last few years and one of the things we've made even more clear to each other is like

01:15:43.640 she can do whatever she wants i am not interested in getting in her way in the least if i can figure

01:15:49.920 out where she's headed and i can do something to help her with that i'm going to do that and i'm

01:15:54.780 going to assume that will dovetail with what i'm doing and she's playing along with me and you know

01:16:00.220 we we have a weird life and and it's an unbelievable life in many ways and but and we come together now

01:16:08.080 and then and think you know are we going to continue with this particular game and like

01:16:15.280 she's a tammy's always been up for an adventure so

01:16:20.300 love is the highest form of play that's true

01:16:28.260 that was nice well we had to get something positive didn't we yeah yeah a little bit

01:16:39.200 yeah well you can tell when you can tell when love is in the air because the spirit of play

01:16:43.320 is what's dominating when one of the things we've been practicing too like consciously

01:16:47.880 when we came back together after we were so ill that was quite complicated because we'd grown

01:16:54.140 apart and i was still very very ill when i moved home and it was even worse than that because i was

01:17:00.520 in terrible shape in the mornings and then i got like more or less at least to the point of subhuman

01:17:07.200 by 10 o'clock at night and I was sort of you could stand being around me and by that time

01:17:12.460 her clock was exactly the opposite and she was ready for bed so that made things complicated

01:17:18.260 and you know we came back together around our practice of dating and that really worked and

01:17:25.000 that also indicated to us that the core of our relationship was still intact and you know and

01:17:30.260 then my health started to improve and that made things a lot easier but like one of the things

01:17:34.880 that we've been striving to do consciously is to conceptualize the best of our romantic

01:17:42.180 interactions our dates our dancing our playing and to see if we can do that all the time right

01:17:50.820 to expand that outward so that our attitude to word every day is that every day like every minute

01:17:57.340 that you spend together could be the perfect date if you oriented yourself properly at least that's

01:18:02.180 hell of a good goal and to spread that out to your community right right well yeah right if you can do

01:18:07.480 that well to your family at large and to your friends and you know yeah and there's definitely

01:18:13.120 yeah right because we were driving down the road and i was thinking ah well we had a little accident

01:18:20.540 a couple years ago so now i'm a little bit more tentative about being in the car and so i thought

01:18:26.400 so one day i just said let's try to bring that spirit of play to the car to drive and my spirit

01:18:35.200 was like hell-bent to the next destination right with every ounce of intensity i could muster

01:18:41.480 and and so like i'm pretty much pushing the limit on the road all the time because i do that all

01:18:47.480 the time and and then i thought well oh probably i could replace that for the extra two minutes

01:18:56.380 I was going to gain for certainly now in particular I mean when I was younger I think there was

01:19:01.460 probably more rationale for flat-out intensity but even then that's that's better than being

01:19:08.860 useless but it's not optimized right right spirit of play is better I think you can tell generosity

01:19:15.940 I think you can tell when people love you whether whether that's like family or significant other

01:19:20.860 if you can talk to them about your problems and show them who you are without putting on any type

01:19:28.860 of act and have them still enjoy being around you or like that better than whatever act you're

01:19:34.260 putting on you don't have to hide parts of yourself for them to love you no there's pretty

01:19:40.260 it's pretty obvious when somebody loves you you don't have to be somebody else

01:19:44.380 you don't have to be the person they would love yes if you were them

01:19:49.760 yeah yeah well they the vows are a safety net around that too right because there'll be times

01:19:56.560 when oh when you're not you well also when you have to reveal things that you know aren't

01:20:02.360 particularly lovable even to you and if you have to keep those hidden you know and that's complicated

01:20:07.340 you can't grow and learn if you have to keep them hidden no but sometimes you you can have done

01:20:12.360 things in your life that are so bloody egregious that it really is a shock to the other person

01:20:17.300 like the kind of you know that's especially the case say if you've had an affair yeah you know

01:20:22.740 how do you how do you bring that to the other person's attention without demolishing the

01:20:27.260 relationship generally you can't well we haven't had that yeah well we haven't learned about that

01:20:33.700 that's good so i don't know what to say about that don't do it that's what i think play with

01:20:40.320 well that's the simple that's the simplest yeah right right right right well that's another issue

01:20:45.980 with sins of omission too you know it's like there's an archetypal there's archetypal

01:20:51.140 representations of women you might say that men fall back on when they're not differentiated

01:20:56.560 one would be virgin and the other would be whore right and wife gets put in the virgin category 0.99

01:21:01.480 right because who wants to have a whore for a wife at least that's the shallow conception 1.00

01:21:07.140 and the answer is well actually sometimes that is what you want but then you have to violate 1.00

01:21:14.020 your purity norm and you have to let some of the female element of this category into this category 1.00

01:21:20.900 and men have a real hard time with that so they put their wife on a pedestal and she has to be 1.00

01:21:25.380 pure and you know virgin mother type and then that doesn't work because that's an insufficient 1.00

01:21:32.920 it's not what they want either

01:21:35.140 context is everything let's put it that way right there's a time and a place for everything 1.00

01:21:42.200 right and so they'll go looking for the whore elsewhere you know and then then there are women 1.00

01:21:47.940 who just act that out and you know that's not good for them obviously either because then they 0.99

01:21:53.400 just end up used and discarded and cynical and psychopathic and bitter and and ruined and that's

01:21:59.700 not a good so you know you know tammy mentioned playing is like you want to incorporate that

01:22:05.400 other element into your relationship so that that's also satisfied and you have to admit what

01:22:10.900 you want and that's very frightening for people especially it's often frightening sexually for

01:22:17.040 people because that's in that's where you're most naked so to speak right so that's where

01:22:21.880 people's vulnerabilities are really they're right there and so people won't even admit to themselves

01:22:27.460 what they want and then that even makes it worse because if you have sexual desires that you don't

01:22:32.360 admit to that are real as you refuse to interact with them they get bitter and resent they get

01:22:39.300 twisted they get twist oh yeah they get twisted and grow into all sorts of monstrous underground

01:22:43.760 forms and then you really not that we know anything about that yeah okay i i think we

01:22:50.820 wrapped this up by we could give people a brief overview of what 2024 looks like for you for you

01:22:56.740 both well why don't you start what are we doing going on a tour huge tour right yeah huge tour

01:23:04.880 so why did you agree to that um well you have a new book so this will mean new lectures so this

01:23:12.060 will mean new ideas when is that coming out probably in november but we're going to start

01:23:16.600 talking about it right away yeah so people are going to hear the ideas yeah yeah before the

01:23:20.960 book comes so that means i have to think of new things to talk about so that's challenging

01:23:24.840 yeah and and we're going to have people travel with us pajo has already agreed to

01:23:29.740 cool jonathan pajo we're trying to get douglas murray to come along too like he did in europe

01:23:34.260 he's interested but he has visa trouble for the u.s so right we'll see if we can arrange that

01:23:39.780 and there's other people that we'll get to come along too and then we have friends that travel

01:23:43.260 with us so that in it so it isn't as lonely and we're going to be in the states and we know lots

01:23:48.220 of people well and you also changed up the tour we did but it was really under your influence so

01:23:55.340 what did you do differently well we have spread out so we have three shows in a row and then we

01:24:01.860 have four days and then we have three yeah otherwise it's just not doable i don't think

01:24:06.100 it's doable so we're going to try this out and see if this four days that we have available

01:24:11.120 takes care of the time we need off the time we need to have dinners with people podcasts and

01:24:18.040 stuff and our relationship being able to see the places we're in yeah you know it was doable

01:24:22.680 we've done it for five years but what we're trying to do one of the things that people need

01:24:28.760 understand is that if something really good is happening to you one of the things you should

01:24:33.140 think through very carefully is first of all you should notice this is unlikely this good fortune

01:24:40.440 and then you should think okay what impediments are there in the path of this iterating that

01:24:46.900 would accumulate across time you know and we've had to work that out on the tour because

01:24:50.960 it got too intense at times and at some point you think well we i just won't do this anymore

01:24:58.480 but then when you have an opportunity like this that's an insane conclusion right because it's

01:25:03.900 so unlikely and it's so positive that what that means is you didn't make the right sacrifices 0.55

01:25:09.740 along the way and so now you have to sacrifice the whole damn thing and so you know we've negotiated 0.66

01:25:15.560 along the whole way and i've tried to listen very carefully to tammy too to see 0.93

01:25:19.520 what has to be modified so that she's enthusiastically on board you know that meant

01:25:25.560 modifying the schedule that schedule was crazy I mean I opened for you guys I a couple years ago

01:25:33.000 for like a month and I was working at the same time which was and it was not doable it's like

01:25:38.360 this isn't even it was fun it was really exciting but I was exhausted a new city every day so light

01:25:45.680 every day oh man so I think I was on a bus at that point so I didn't have to do the flight

01:25:50.340 but the bus is easier um but i think the four day off we'll see how that goes we'll see how that goes

01:25:56.540 and we're going to go to south america so the 50 cities are in the u.s we're going to go to central

01:26:02.220 and south america for a week oh cool that's in june oh that's fun maybe so we have till and then

01:26:09.180 we're going to be at our cottage for most of the summer and fall that's the plan and the fall is

01:26:16.540 still indeterminate apart from the fact that the book is coming out plus we're launching peterson

01:26:21.240 academy in february and so that's a that's a big deal and this arc enterprise that has got

01:26:29.420 underway in london will unfold we're planning some regional events major regional events next

01:26:35.180 year likely in the united states possibly in the middle east so that's exciting um we're going to

01:26:42.180 do a conference yep we're gonna do a conference next fall yeah for peterson academy yeah i think

01:26:49.660 so peterson academy but we're still figuring it out we're gonna do a conference for sure

01:26:54.380 under what rubric remains to be determined oh i see right so and i'm very much looking forward

01:27:01.720 to i'm just about finished my book and two books actually because it's going to be two books um

01:27:06.920 and i'm very excited about that so it's i've had the most fun writing this book of any books i've

01:27:15.380 written and it's come easiest and i think i got the balance i wrote maps of meaning it's very hard

01:27:22.040 and then i wrote 12 rules and beyond order and they're more publicly accessible this one is kind

01:27:26.880 of somewhere in the middle it's harder for sure it's denser but it's easier to understand than

01:27:33.280 maps of meaning and i think that it'll be revelatory that's that's the idea i don't

01:27:40.160 i cannot see that people will read this book and understand it and

01:27:44.920 like i think it'll demolish the atheistic argument that's demolished his atheism i guess

01:27:51.500 well that happened a long time ago oh i see but that'd be wild well you can see it happening

01:27:57.980 already i know i think there are people like ian hersey ali and neil ferguson douglas murray who

01:28:03.020 have come to either like full-fledged acceptance of a theistic viewpoint or at minimum a deep

01:28:10.520 understanding of the fact that like a moral humanistic endeavor in the absence of an

01:28:16.540 underlying metaphysical foundation isn't that isn't it has no staying power it's weak it's

01:28:23.320 it's going to be blown over immediately by ideology by competing religious claims by

01:28:28.540 by new spontaneous religious forms veganism or vegetarianism or climate yeah or nature worship

01:28:36.800 that's right the climate thing like that's become pretty obvious so i'm very excited about and that's

01:28:42.900 partly why we're also so happy to be going on tour because it's going to be very interesting to see

01:28:46.980 the response and you know it's good that we can still do our podcasts because i really like doing

01:28:53.300 my podcast yeah yours has been learning a lot i really like you know you've done how many oh i

01:28:59.300 don't know over a hundred yeah you're gonna surpass me well you've been busy oh my gosh yeah you've

01:29:05.420 been busy too yeah i've had the babies baby makes you really busy yeah it does it does yeah no not

01:29:12.420 that busy well and you've had well that's another thing that's sort of on the table for you we're

01:29:17.680 going to go back to italy and both of us are much are interested in pursuing artistic endeavors to

01:29:23.080 much greater degree than we have and like that's something that beckons in the future for me

01:29:27.220 and for you um i told you we're gonna find out you've made money through touring and through

01:29:33.320 your books and things but you're gonna be an artist and that's actually what's gonna be the

01:29:37.660 most valuable thing you do that'd be pretty funny that would be pretty funny that would be funny i

01:29:42.300 can certainly see that it would be the most fun i mean i've had such a good time making music and

01:29:46.740 that's been just a blast and tammy and i have both really really enjoyed that we have really

01:29:51.500 good people to work with so that's been ridiculously fun so i could imagine doing that for like 10

01:29:56.560 years in music videos yeah nice and well and i wrote a screenplay on a brother's grim story and

01:30:03.660 marshall and i and tammy and sonia and victor have recorded five or six six or seven songs for that

01:30:10.860 and so marshall's already put them together so and it's getting easier and easier to make a movie

01:30:16.500 not that that's necessarily a good thing but it's more straightforward thing for me especially if i

01:30:21.120 want to do something animated so you know that's more like a three-year plan so so all good things

01:30:29.180 yeah good things that's right grandkids good things yeah yeah well in our various enterprises

01:30:35.820 like i enjoy working with julian on essay and that's going very nicely and we're having quite

01:30:40.560 a blast with our various ventures and peterson academy can be well it's an adventure i mean

01:30:46.560 you know i'm very happy with the way it's going and so congratulations on that you've done a bang

01:30:52.020 up job and we have excellent professors and they're all thrilled to be everybody seems very

01:30:56.340 happy yeah oh and i have we have the gospel seminar coming up in the beginning of april

01:31:02.360 right and so everybody's on board with that because they were we had a great time when we

01:31:07.260 did the exodus seminar everybody loved it and so i everyone i invited back said you know tell me when

01:31:13.060 it's going to happen and i'll be there and the daily wire has been very enthusiastic about it

01:31:17.500 and so i'm really looking forward to that because i walked through the gospels in great detail

01:31:24.020 writing this book gospels will be fine yeah well the book yeah what people can expect from the

01:31:29.140 book is the same thing that they saw in the genesis lectures in 2017 except much that wider and much

01:31:37.220 deeper so that's the tour too that's the similar to that yes yes oh okay yeah that's very cool

01:31:43.780 i wonder if i can come along for some of that i don't know you're welcome i have multiple children

01:31:48.460 now yeah that's well it's a little tricky see if you can come along for some of it bring people

01:31:53.240 he's pretty young he's pretty little yeah but they do travel bring they do they do bring people

01:31:58.400 along that can help you yeah okay you know make it work make it work but do come along maybe some

01:32:05.020 maybe like mexico or something would be fun yeah well and we'll probably go out on the road again

01:32:11.080 next fall yeah yeah so you know even if you miss the first six months that doesn't i don't think

01:32:16.560 it doesn't look we'll see how these tickets sell but what so far it's looking good because when we

01:32:25.900 announced the new tour we put the tickets up on sale and some of the venues were 40 sold out

01:32:31.440 within a week without us advertising so if the our sense is at least so far like as long as public

01:32:40.660 demand stays high and as long as we have something new to offer there's no real reason to stop doing

01:32:49.880 this that's very positive experience and it seems to be good for people and it's helped the arc

01:32:54.460 thing grow and we've made crazy connections all over the world we want to extend those into

01:32:59.880 africa and into southeast asia and south america southeast asia would be cool yep i'm gonna join

01:33:06.700 for that yeah come to south korea yeah that would be really fun okay i'll do that one take a whole

01:33:11.820 busload of people yeah yeah that would be fun you know we'll do a big stadium in in seoul cool

01:33:17.960 okay well thank you guys both for coming on what are you excited about what are you excited about

01:33:24.760 2024 oh i mean i mean i'm really excited about launching peterson academy and why are you so

01:33:32.660 interested in that what does it mean about you know what maybe maybe part of it is you put such

01:33:40.700 an emphasis on needing a degree you're a university professor so i grew up i actually was a bit

01:33:48.080 confused because i knew i wanted to have kids young and young to me was in my 20s and i also

01:33:53.900 thought that the best thing i could do for my career would be to get a phd and i remember being

01:33:59.440 like i was like 18 being like yeah i remember that doesn't really line up like it doesn't really line

01:34:05.560 up you can't really have kids in your 20s and get a phd it's like what how am i gonna have time for

01:34:10.300 both so that was always kind of in my maybe that's a problem we're gonna solve with peterson academy

01:34:14.140 yes maybe we can offer people phd level training if we get this thing really humming and a hundred

01:34:21.580 And so that young women could still have children when they're, that would be good. 0.95

01:34:25.320 So it solves, that would be great.

01:34:26.240 So it would solve that problem.

01:34:27.600 But I also, when I went to university, I had such an abysmal time, like everybody I learned

01:34:32.300 from, I mean, I had you as a dad that probably didn't help, but everybody I learned from

01:34:36.120 was like, this person is not very smart.

01:34:39.060 That's kind of the, and I, I don't think I came from like a haughty place.

01:34:42.980 I was just listening and it wasn't that interesting.

01:34:45.380 And there were things that were pretty wrong and a lot of it felt like a waste of time.

01:34:50.760 and i took a loan out to go too and i was like this is not what i thought it was going to be

01:34:56.760 and then i had scarlet and i quit like i dropped out anyway so i have i have like four years and

01:35:03.860 two half degrees from switching universities and trying to pursue different things and

01:35:07.440 find something that was interesting and i guess i'd like that disappointment

01:35:12.820 it's annoying the university problem is annoying i think they take advantage of a lot of young

01:35:18.540 people put them in a boatload of debt don't teach them anything that's worth learning and bettering

01:35:24.320 themselves and then say yeah you need this degree to get a job it's like why why do i need this

01:35:30.280 random degree to get a job that has nothing to do with it that's just some weird societal thing that

01:35:36.640 isn't even relevant anymore apparently 54 of businesses in 2024 aren't going to require a

01:35:42.420 bachelor's degree anymore yeah well it's like it's honest way out new pen and mit advertised

01:35:47.440 themselves the way they did in congress there's no there that certainly comes as no surprise

01:35:51.780 yeah i think the education system the you know k to 12 and the university is going to change i mean

01:35:59.340 we've gone from kids used to go to school maybe from grade 8 to maybe grade 12 but maybe grade 10

01:36:05.260 like maybe a couple years of school and then they went off and worked and now we have kids in school

01:36:10.200 from like three until 25 yeah say what what are we doing and if we could if we could help children

01:36:18.460 to find an avenue of interest and depth when they're young and then launch them out into the

01:36:24.980 world then that'd be much better you know that was that was a fundamental ambition of mine back

01:36:29.260 in junior high when i was sitting in my class oh tearing my hair out thinking there was this is

01:36:34.220 this is awful well and the thing is it's way more awful now yeah because like my teachers were

01:36:41.780 uninspiring but they weren't uninspiring and ideologically addled and malevolent

01:36:50.020 right right so i thought it was bad already now it's unconscionably bad yeah well hopefully when

01:36:58.580 we expand i mean the other thing that excites me about peterson academy i think is the social

01:37:03.100 element because it's like social media i mean you can find people you like on instagram you can make

01:37:08.280 connections and things but i think having people who are interested in learning and improving their

01:37:12.840 lives on a platform where they can communicate with with each other because we have the social

01:37:16.780 media component could be really beneficial for people yeah um and then who knows how that'll

01:37:22.880 grow if we can turn on location so people can meet with each other and maybe in a year or so

01:37:29.080 when we see how this is going we can expand so that we can be teaching younger kids yeah that

01:37:34.680 well and maybe we'll be able to bring people together in conferences and so forth and

01:37:38.480 yeah on a relatively regular basis I mean one of the things we've envisioned as you know is

01:37:42.720 having if we have enough students to make it worthwhile is having local conferences where

01:37:47.540 we bring you know eight of our best professors in for two days and bring people together and

01:37:52.280 they can meet and they can they can get hyper educated for you know a boot camp for for 16

01:37:58.160 hours of lectures in three days and that could that could work very very efficiently and it's

01:38:03.740 it's also a model that isn't necessarily targeted only to people who are you know 18 to 22 yeah

01:38:09.580 there's no reason that university education should be targeted to people who are 18 to 22

01:38:14.220 no that just makes no sense that that's the other thing we should probably clarify is yes it's not

01:38:18.860 targeted towards a specific age it's if you want to learn the content it's there you also don't

01:38:23.320 have to pursue a diploma if you don't want to you can just take the courses and learn yeah uh

01:38:29.980 yeah yeah and we'll have quite a flexible accreditation model so yeah that's really

01:38:35.720 exciting so that's what i'm excited about and growing the podcast and doing in-person podcasts

01:38:39.820 obviously the baby is very exciting a little hormonal right now but very exciting uh and then

01:38:48.640 i don't know i've got some other things i've got the fuller health yeah uh supplements going on

01:38:53.280 that seems to be doing really well and what else there's more well i've got some ideas going on we

01:39:01.660 have this dating app idea right so yeah yeah we talked about that i want to do that really badly

01:39:06.400 i wanted to do that for a while so but that's a little bit in the future um oh yeah and then the

01:39:12.220 diet things i mean line diet's just brand of its own now um that seems to be helping people and i

01:39:17.960 want to keep expanding that um because i think it's beneficial for people and learning more about

01:39:24.640 our health right yeah and learning more about our health so yeah my plate is full that's it's

01:39:32.200 definitely is overflowing yeah well we had a great year like 2023 was was like we planned it quite

01:39:38.920 carefully and everything we planned worked yeah and we have a very good team our team has been

01:39:48.240 excellent our logistics guys our security guys our agents yeah um smooth it's smooth yeah our

01:39:54.680 tour manager deadly people like they don't cause trouble they're extremely helpful they're

01:40:00.720 completely on board our secretary jordan spencer he's great and and and very good all the people

01:40:07.920 around me are very good at dealing with the public and and and that's been a a tricky thing

01:40:13.180 to manage to find security people who are good at logistics and and dealing with the public but all

01:40:18.740 the things we planned far in advance they all laid out the arc conference was spectacularly successful

01:40:24.220 and it's worked out real well online i mean i think constantine kissin's talk on the arc site

01:40:29.780 loan has a million views it's got at least another million you know in views in distributed platforms

01:40:35.520 yeah he nailed it and it's not the most popular talk now oh no no the energy talk by uh steve

01:40:42.320 his name momentarily escapes me but it's the number one talk on the on the arc site

01:40:48.620 yeah on an intelligent energy policy not kunan right no no it wasn't kunan so so that's very

01:40:55.760 exciting the arc thing is extremely exciting and it's a new thing yeah so yeah yeah well just

01:41:01.920 getting going sounds good here's to 2024 right yeah yeah yeah well thanks for the invitation

01:41:07.480 mick and for being hospitable while we've been staying with you for the last complicated three

01:41:12.920 weeks yeah well thanks for coming it's been it's been easy well that's good that's good yeah that's

01:41:20.520 good that's high praise indeed you're staying with family yeah yeah right right

The Mikhaila Peterson Podcast - January 17, 2024

Tammy and Jordan Peterson： Love and Divorce Advice, Overcoming Hardships and Plans for 2024 ｜ EP 197

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