00:00:00.000I'm delighted to report that I have joined as a visiting professor the Declaration of Independence
00:00:06.200Center for the Study of American Freedom at the University of Mississippi. The center offers
00:00:12.600educational opportunities, speakers, internship, and reading groups for the University of Mississippi
00:00:18.580community. It is named in honor of the United States founding document which constitutes the
00:00:25.640nation as a political community and expresses fundamental principles of American freedom,
00:00:31.780including in the recognition of the importance of Judeo-Christian values in shaping American
00:00:37.600exceptionalism. Dedicated to the academic and open-minded exploration of these principles,
00:00:44.060the Center exists to encourage exploration into the many facets of freedom. It will sponsor a
00:00:50.940speaker series, and an interdisciplinary faculty research team. If you'd like to learn more about
00:00:56.840the center, please visit Ole Miss, that's O-L-E-M-I-S-S dot E-D-U slash independence slash.
00:01:05.980Hi everybody, this is Gatsad. I've got a fantastic guest today. I was all proud
00:01:09.920looking at myself in the mirror because I've got a New York Times bestseller,
00:01:13.760but the current guy has many New York Times bestseller. Let me first say hello to you,
00:01:18.940Eric Metaxas, how are you doing, sir? How sick that we have to mention the New York Times. It's
00:01:24.400like mentioning the Soviet Union or North Korea. That's the world we live in. I guess it's a0.87
00:01:30.800metric. I'm glad my books have done well. It's always funny to me every time somebody mentions
00:01:38.020that, but thank you. All right. Let me mention a few of those books. Then I'm going to mention
00:01:42.740the book that dropped i think june 2nd doing very well uh all right so here are the the the big
00:01:50.000bestsellers although you've published i think maybe 30 children's book as well and so on so i
00:01:54.680think your top one is bonhoeffer pastor martyr prophet and spy then martin luther the man who
00:02:02.320rediscovered god and changed the world you're ready look what i've got on my personal library
00:02:07.020wow 1950 edition yes sir now that is why i wrote my luther book because i said there hasn't been
00:02:16.640a kind of a definitive story of luther since that book which is a great book but it was 70 years and
00:02:22.900i said you know what i'm gonna i'm gonna but that's yeah that's okay does this guy compete
00:02:27.940with you because this is more recent do you know this one um i don't know that's my book came out
00:02:33.720in 2017 for the 500th anniversary and it was the only book i've ever written that got a review in
00:02:40.160the new york times generally favorable which is shocking they must have not looked very deeply
00:02:44.740into my background all right let me just mention the other books if you can keep it the forgotten
00:02:50.420promise of american liberty miracles what they are what why they happen and how they can change
00:02:56.060your life and then your sort of seven series seven women and the secret of their greatness
00:03:00.720Seven Men and the Secret of Their Greatness. I presume that I'm number one on that list,
00:03:05.500or you'll be coming out with a new list where I'll be number one. And then, you ready? Your
00:03:10.700latest book. I love it because I'm at the Declaration of Independence Center for the
00:03:15.440Study of American Freedom. June 2nd, this year, Revolution, The Birth of the Greatest Nation
00:03:21.980in the History of the World. Talk to us about the book. Well, first of all, I have to explain
00:03:29.920that, you know, my book Revolution has been 10 weeks as of yesterday, yesterday marked the 10th
00:03:40.940week on the New York Times list, which is a very big deal. I say this because it's a big book
00:03:46.580and because we're living at a time when, you know, well, let me put it another way.
00:03:55.100And I said about two years ago, a friend of mine, in fact, a friend of mine who introduced me to you, said to me, you should think about writing a book on the American Revolution.
00:04:06.820He read the first chapter of my book called Seven Men and the Secret of Their Greatness.
00:04:11.480The first chapter is George Washington.
00:04:13.620And he said he was so moved by that chapter.
00:04:15.740He says, Eric, you got to write the rest of the story.
00:04:18.140And usually friends suggest to write a book and you think, thank you very much.
00:06:36.440But I was not expecting to see it so dramatically present.
00:06:40.740So my book is not about that, but it's there.0.67
00:06:43.480I mean, I really have to say I was just so astonished that everywhere I looked, I mean, in fact, the actual impetus for the revolution, the guys who really started the trouble in Boston, the Massachusetts Bay, they were all descendants of Puritans, very strong Reformation theology that really, this was the focus in a sense that pushed them to Lexington and Concord to that moment.0.68
00:07:10.280So all of that comes into the story. But I'll finally say in answering this question that I really felt we need to celebrate what's good. And a lot of times we hear the negative news and we need a template for it. Here's some good news. Here's where we started the idea of governing ourselves and liberty and equality and all this. Where did that come from? I think we need to know that story. That's why I wrote the book.
00:07:38.660Do you think that if you were to place all of those figures at the start of the revolution in today's world, would they sort of pat themselves on the back and say, my goodness, look what we started? Or would they say, what the hell is going on with the United States? Why are we teaching our children to be self-loathing about the country that they live in? Or is it maybe a bit of both?
00:08:03.720I think it's unquestionably both. I think they would be astonished that this experiment succeeded
00:08:10.660because this is one of the things that I hope I get across in the book, the wildness of the idea,
00:08:16.300the implausibility of an idea that people would govern themselves. We kind of take it for granted.
00:08:22.120This had never been done. Everybody had kings. You have a king or a tyrant, a bad king or an
00:08:29.180okay king, but the idea that we will have no king, we will govern ourselves. What a crazy idea. Why
00:08:35.240would that work? And the fact of the matter is, it won't work unless you do what they did. The
00:08:41.000reason my book is titled The Revolution or Revolution and not The American Revolution is I
00:08:46.100say it's the only revolution in the history of the world that genuinely succeeded in doing what it
00:08:51.360set out to do. The French Revolution is a bitter tragedy and a joke. I mean, it turns into a blood
00:08:56.800bath of terror. It's like a proto-Marxist revolution. And they end in trading their
00:09:02.880king for an emperor dictator. It didn't go the way they thought. And the same thing with
00:09:09.080these demonic parodies of revolution, the Bolshevik revolution or the Chinese communist0.74
00:09:15.000revolution that ended in enslaving millions who they promised were going to give the power to
00:09:19.900the people. So the American revolution really stands in a unique position in the history of
00:09:26.500the world. And I think in the 250th year, we need to understand how it happened, what led to it,
00:09:33.560not just, you know, the revolution starting with the war in 1775 and Lexington and Concord, but
00:09:38.260what led up to that, to that moment, and then what it was that kept them going. And we do need
00:09:43.760to understand that, you know, to talk about what they would think today with the lunacy around us,
00:09:49.160they knew back then they were in an existential crisis. What they were doing should never have
00:09:54.180succeeded. Apart from the hand of God, apart from providence, it doesn't make natural sense that
00:09:59.360this group of people would defeat the greatest nation and power in the world. And I think we're
00:10:06.140in a similar existential crisis now. And one of the reasons I wrote the book and hope people will
00:10:10.740read the book genuinely is because we need to be reminded in the midst of an existential crisis,
00:10:16.220how do you get through an existential crisis? The fact of the matter is you could lose,
00:10:22.340But I think, you know, as a man of faith, I would say I think it's God's will that we don't lose, that we succeed.
00:10:46.260I mean, whatever you name it, you know, mix in a little transgenderism.1.00
00:10:50.360is madness. How do we deal with that? Well, the question is, how did they deal with it? Because1.00
00:10:56.480they were dealing with something rather similar, even though we don't think so. It's always the
00:11:01.800same thing. The forces of good versus the forces of evil, depending on what manifestations those
00:11:07.580forces are taking. But it's very similar, and there are dramatic similarities.
00:11:12.800In psychology, when you are trying to ascribe causality to something, there's something called the fundamental attribution error whereby you can either ascribe something to the situation, right, or to the disposition of the individual who was in the situation.
00:11:32.920So using that framework, I want to link that to the revolution. Did the revolution happen because these ideas that were simmering were there in that moment? And it could have been different actors who instantiated those ideas? Or did it require the unique disposition of those great men that I guess you cover in one of your other books for them to pull it off?
00:12:00.320Or we could have replaced them with other courageous, enlightened people, and the movie would have ended up the same way.
00:12:08.040I think it's hard to say because I think we really, I mean, it ends up being both because the ideas could not have existed without these people.
00:12:16.960These people were the existence of these ideas.
00:12:19.800I mean, you know, because not everybody agreed with these ideas.
00:12:22.300So you have to have enough people that sort of get this or that can convince others of
00:12:27.940the importance of fighting for these ideas.
00:12:48.880But the point is that the radical idea that our rights come from God, you really have to go back to the Sinai Covenant.
00:12:57.760And most of the figures, especially in Puritan, Massachusetts, in New England, they were looking to the Old Testament.
00:13:05.100They're looking to the Sinai Covenant.
00:13:06.860They're looking to the Jews, to the Israelites, to the Hebrews of 3,000 years earlier, who come out from under Pharaoh, who come out from Egypt, delivered by God.
00:13:18.140They don't do this on their own exactly.
00:13:44.460This is a reprisal of the Sinai covenant.
00:13:47.860And in fact, it's an amazing thing, you know, because the centrality of God in this kind of narrative, most people say, well, wait a minute, they were deists or they were, you know, and the more research I did, the more I thought, this is nonsense.
00:15:48.040They are all quoting the Bible, I mean, involuntarily.
00:15:54.180I mean, it just comes out of them as they're talking and so on and so forth.
00:15:57.420And I thought, even if you're not a person of faith, you need to be historically honest, to be intellectually honest.
00:16:05.020You have to acknowledge that these men did these things because they thought this was God's idea of how to govern ourselves.
00:16:12.220That this idea that our rights come from God and that government exists simply to protect those rights.
00:16:18.960This is a sacred idea. And that to, in a sense, you know, to bow before man when God is requiring something else of us, we cannot do that. We're men of honor. We will rather die than be enslaved or bow to a statue of Nebuchadnezzar or, you know, pinch some incense to an image of Caesar. We refuse to do that.
00:16:45.800That's really what they were thinking. And I think that, you know, today, living in such a secular world, we sort of forget about that. And it's like, well, you can't really forget about it. You don't have to agree with it. I mean, I do agree with it, but you don't have to. But you have to acknowledge that's why they did what they did. That's why they risked their lives, their fortunes, their sacred honor. This wasn't just for power. This was, in fact, not for power. It was for principle. And that's a very beautiful and noble idea. And I think we need to acknowledge the nobility of it.
00:17:14.080But earlier you mentioned that, you know, the angle that you ended up taking was one that was coming from faith.
00:17:21.140And you've often, in our current conversation, mentioned faith and God, which is actually a really good segue to link your book to mine.
00:17:29.700Because as you know, and you were kind enough to invite me on your show last week, we talked about suicidal empathy.
00:17:35.240And so you're going to see in a second how I'm going to tie these two together.
00:17:38.100The First Amendment, of course, has the freedom of religion, you know, edict. And of course, many of the suicidally empathetic Americans, whenever I intervene and say, you know, not all religions are the same, not all religions are equally likely to operate within an ethos of plurality.
00:18:00.400And of course, I usually point to Islam. Then they say, but no, we can't. It's right there in the First Amendment, freedom of religion. And then, of course, the argument is, for those who understand my point, is that, well, the Constitution and the amendments are not a suicide pact.
00:18:17.500So I recognize as a Jewish person that the United States, yes, it's built on Judeo-Christian ethics, but it's a Christian nation, to your point, right? And the fact that I can come to the United States and flourish whatever faith I have, or if I had no faith, is wonderful, but I don't espouse any positions that are contrary to the foundational principles of the United States.
00:18:44.760So how can we get, Eric, the suicidally empathetic people who just through rote parroting keep repeating, but we have freedom of religion, but we, but if, well, listen, again, they're absolutely ignorant. And this is people, it's one thing to be ignorant. It's one thing to be ignorant. Many people are ignorant. I'm ignorant of many things. But it's another thing to be ignorant of your ignorance.0.98
00:19:09.240It's even the worst thing to be proud of your ignorance.1.00
00:19:12.760And these people are proud of their ignorance.0.99
00:19:14.600They have no idea what they're talking about.0.98
00:19:16.440They should absolutely feel free to shut up, to learn a little bit about what they're talking
00:19:21.140about, because this idea of freedom of religion, I mean, if I say my religion has killed the0.96
00:19:25.420Jews, are we going to say, okay, you're entitled to your religion?0.53
00:19:30.020We don't have that kind of freedom of religion.
00:19:35.980What does this mean, freedom of religion?
00:19:37.880How did the founders see it? And I mean, I have to say, you know, the idea of equality, the idea of liberty, these ideas do not come from the Koran, ladies and gentlemen. The Koran is antithetical to those ideas. Be honest about it.
00:19:56.720Now, in America, if you say, I'm a Muslim, can I live in America? Our answer is usually yes. You don't have to agree with everything, but on the basics, if you want to take over and institute Sharia law, we're not going to allow that. We have a set of values, and even the value that welcomes people with whom we differ is a biblical value, okay?
00:20:32.480We welcome people with different ideas because we are Christians, because we're people of the book.
00:20:38.260So, again, there's an irony here, you know, that when people sloppily say we have freedom of religion, you have to say, well, first of all, where did that idea come from?
00:20:47.580Yes, it came from the Bible by way of the Reformation. That's where that idea came from. Theocracy is an idea that we have realized. I mean, what I keep saying is that the value of the Enlightenment critiques of Christian faith is that it forced the Christian faith to kind of squeeze the Bible harder to say what's really here and out pops liberty, out pops this idea of religious liberty, that this is fundamental to the Bible.
00:21:16.780We now see this clearly. Martin Luther didn't see it. He just wanted freedom from the Vatican.
00:21:23.660Okay, well, what about freedom from the Lutherans? What about freedom? In other words, religious
00:21:27.860liberty is a sacred idea. It takes centuries for us to kind of figure it out. But I mean,
00:21:32.360I've written about, I wrote a biography of William Wilberforce called Amazing Grace.0.97
00:21:36.700You know, it took centuries for Christians to figure out that, ah, slavery is an abomination0.97
00:21:41.760before God. The Bible teaches us to treat others as we would want others to treat us.0.95
00:21:47.760It takes centuries for these ideas, these biblical ideas, to work their way into history.
00:21:53.200And the United States of America, this idea of people governing themselves and the sanctity of
00:21:58.620the individual, that we're going to set up a government to protect the minorities so that
00:22:04.020it can't be mob rule, which is pure democracy. All of this stuff comes from the Bible. And even
00:22:10.440if you don't agree with the Bible, you have to acknowledge that's where these ideas come from.
00:22:14.400And so it's, again, there's a lot here. Now, my book, to be clear, it's not about those things.
00:22:18.140My book is not a religious book. It's just a kind of a gallop through the history. And it's a
00:22:24.640beautiful history, how it all happened and the figures and their funny stories, crazy stories,
00:22:29.420incredible heroes, and some real despicable villains. But behind it all, you know, whenever
00:22:35.380I just have a few minutes to talk about it, I realized this is the piece that I was missing
00:23:32.680He writes an essay, one of the first chapters of my book is about an essay that he wrote
00:23:36.640in 1765. I'd never known it before. Most people have never mentioned it. It is an astonishing
00:23:42.440essay that lays everything out brilliantly. So he's a huge figure. And I think he had a great
00:23:48.320sense of humor, very acerbic and funny. When he comes to the Continental Congress in 1774,
00:23:55.660when they first gathered, the first gathering where they're meeting each other, because they
00:23:59.600have no idea what lies ahead. They gather in Philadelphia, no clue that there's going to be
00:24:04.820a second continental Congress and a war or whatever. And he, in his diary is noting these
00:24:10.820people that he's meeting that, you know, he's going to make history with them, but he's never
00:24:13.700met them before the Rutledges and, uh, you know, Caesar Rodney, uh, and these different figures
00:24:19.680and his descriptions of them are hilarious. And anytime I find anything like hilarious,
00:24:25.900I have to put it in my book because I said, I want this to be entertaining and people need to
00:24:29.560know that, that people back then had a, had a sense of humor. And I don't know that he was
00:24:34.100trying to be hilarious, but just these sly comments that John Adams makes. He's an amazing
00:24:40.420figure and a profound Christian who really right in the beginning was making sure that things don't
00:24:49.900go off. I mean, the Boston Massacre, I tell that story, of course, in 1770, he defended the British
00:24:55.820soldiers in the Boston Massacre because he said this is the right thing to do. If we're going to0.81
00:25:01.580move forward, we have to be the ones with 100% integrity, which brings us back to this Old
00:25:07.460Testament idea of covenant, that if we honor God in how we behave, God will honor us. So we're not
00:25:14.880going to do whatever it takes to win. We're going to honor God in how we fight, in how we move
00:25:21.280forward, because we trust that God will be with us. And that's a radical position. Deists don't
00:25:29.720do that. George Washington was not a deist, because he's another one I'd want at the dinner
00:25:34.360table. My goodness, my goodness, what a towering figure in history is this man. George, you think,
00:25:41.260did we make him up? He's like a cartoon character. No, he was a real human being
00:25:44.440with an absolutely towering character, amazing man of virtue, public virtue, private virtue.
00:25:51.700And you realize these are real people. And I think part of why I wrote the book is I think
00:25:56.080we need to understand that we we need to know their stories to help model ourselves on them
00:26:04.360these are these are amazing people real people who did something that even they were were not
00:26:10.420uh they were they were never cavalier about oh you know we should win they thought this is we
00:26:16.360humble ourselves that this is a sacred idea in history and if we're the ones to allow it to come
00:26:22.820into history we'll do our best but they were very humble uh but yeah george washington i mean what
00:26:28.340a figure he is and then there's some real villains in the book john adams george washington yeah
00:26:33.460third guy oh yeah okay so you're you're gonna push me and press me to actually come up with a
00:26:38.980israel putnam okay israel putnam a lot of people gonna mention israel putnam is a character you
00:26:46.420know when you say this guy's a character he was because i'm from connecticut today i'm in
00:26:51.280Connecticut. He was, um, a Connecticut native who, who by the time of the revolution is like an old
00:26:57.380guy. He's in his fifties. He's a veteran, a grizzled veteran. He's at Bunker Hill. What a
00:27:01.860character he is. I just, just for the joy of being around him, you, you just know you want to be
00:27:06.020around that guy. He's going to be fun, uh, to be around Henry Knox. Wow. Henry Knox. I mean,
00:27:14.520that's another one. I think, I mean, I remember when I was in fifth grade and I, I write this
00:27:19.080in the acknowledgments to the book. So at the end of the book, I acknowledge three, well, the third
00:27:25.560group of people is one man. It's my fifth grade history teacher who changed my life by being
00:27:32.440faithful to speak to fifth graders. And I, his name was Robert McDevitt in Danbury, Connecticut,
00:27:39.480Beaverbrook School, Danbury, Connecticut. And I will never forget, even though I was nine years
00:27:43.560old that year that it affected me hearing the stories. And one of the stories was the story
00:27:51.980of Henry Knox, 25-year-old, going on a crazy journey on an errand to Ticonderoga, 300 miles
00:28:00.260from Boston, to get the guns, the cannon, 120,000 pounds of cannon, to bring them from the heights
00:28:10.120of Ticonderoga down across four frozen rivers and over the icy, snowy Berkshire mountains with
00:28:17.860oxen and sleds, 250 oxen, many horses, 125 sleds. It's an insane story. It's like Hannibal crossing
00:28:28.080the Alps on elephants. And that is just one of these stories. You say, what would I do to sit
00:28:35.640down with that guy. And then, of course, Benjamin Franklin, because Benjamin Franklin, and he's a
00:28:42.440very central figure in the story, too. It's kind of amazing. I didn't realize quite how central he
00:28:47.740was all through the revolution. I mean, a very, very central figure. He was, of course, world
00:28:54.000famous before it all began. I mean, he was a world famous scientist and on and on and on.
00:28:58.940and uh there's a chapter in the book about when he is betrayed in england in 1773 uh he he is
00:29:08.340working very hard to bring reconciliation between the british and the americans before the war
00:29:13.380starts and he is humiliated publicly in england by the king's privy council it's really uh
00:29:19.880it it shows you the darkness one of the themes of the book um one of the angles of the book as i say
00:29:27.200is the corruption and cynicism of the british elites and they humiliate franklin it's it's
00:29:35.180one of my favorite chapters in the book because it really shows you something that most people
00:29:39.020don't know that story and um he is an extraordinary figure i mean absolutely extraordinary so the fact
00:29:46.580that these guys get together and there are there are others i mean i tell the story of nathan hale
00:29:51.500basically martyred for the cause at age 21, one of the great heroes of American history.
00:29:57.940The Ken Burns PBS documentary, which I say to people, miss it if you can. Try to miss it because
00:30:03.320it's not really worth 12 hours for sure, but I had to watch it. They devote 10 seconds to an
00:30:10.840anodyne mention of this hero, Nathan Hale. And that to me summarizes the left. They can't celebrate
00:30:16.860greatness and goodness and beauty and truth because they don't really believe in those
00:30:20.400things. And they always have to kind of wring their hands and talk about the bad stuff or the
00:30:24.140guilt or it's there's two sides to the story. They can't celebrate something beautiful. And if
00:30:29.420there's anything beautiful in this beautiful story, it's the story of Nathan Hale. So a lot
00:30:34.960of heroes. All right. So when I answered the question of who are the 10 people that I would
00:30:41.120invite, the person that I put on top of that list, and I'll explain in a second why, would be
00:30:46.800Leonardo da Vinci, because as someone myself who is very much of a staunch
00:30:52.100interdisciplinarian, and in my academic work, I publish in medicine and in psychology and in
00:30:58.440marketing and in politics. I don't care. I just go wherever my mind is interested in going. I don't
00:31:04.980care about these sort of tight lane silos. So I admire people who are very much polymaths in
00:31:11.680their orientations. My reading of these people, and I don't nearly have as much expertise on any
00:31:18.820of these folks as you do. So you'll tell me, you'll correct me if I'm wrong. I get the feeling
00:31:23.340that if we can say that there is one thing that was common across many of these original founding
00:31:29.960fathers is that they were polymaths. They were very well read. They did know Latin and Greek and
00:31:37.440read philosophy and so on. Whereas, unfortunately, today, we see that the average person who goes to
00:31:45.200UC Berkeley to study mathematics is eight years behind. They're not breaking open a book. So,
00:31:51.680would it be correct that in addition to their courage and vision, they were all very much
00:31:57.060interdisciplinary in their orientation? Most of them, absolutely. And it's funny because you
00:32:02.060You described me, and I normally put it less positively, I say I'm scattered, I'm all over
00:32:07.920the place, because many of my books, it's the same kind of thing. I mean, I don't, I rarely
00:32:11.760write about the same thing twice. And I think there's real value in that and having a popular
00:32:16.460level of, you know, ability to communicate on a popular level, and to get excited about things.
00:32:21.300And I've never used the term interdisciplinarian, but I'm going to use that for myself now,
00:32:26.520because I think that that's that describes me, but I hadn't thought of it. Polymath is even
00:32:31.200better. But I think you're right. They were. They were men who understood. I mean, first of all,
00:32:39.340they understood the principles at stake. So this was not power politics. This was,
00:32:46.580what are these principles? And are we right? A very humble look at, you know, we don't want to
00:32:51.460just go forward to go forward. Are we right? Is God with us in this? Because this is a,
00:32:56.480We're risking our lives. This is a big deal. But if we're right, then we will risk everything.
00:33:03.000And I think that that requires breadth of knowledge, as you put it, as you're referring to what you're that's what you're referring to here, that they really were thinking deeply about this.
00:33:14.980Now, not Israel Putnam. He wasn't thinking so deeply about it. But there are, I mean, when I think of John Adams and Samuel Adams, and there are so many figures that we can't even mention. Joseph Warren, who was the leader of the whole movement before the beginning. He's killed at Bunker Hill. And they thought it's over. It was like the death of Charlie Kirk. It was like a horror. How can we possibly go on?
00:33:39.880And I mean, it's an amazing, people should know his name.
00:33:44.120John Hancock is another amazingly vital, central figure.
00:33:57.560And it's in the beginning of my book, I cover a lot of this stuff because I think it's sort
00:34:00.600of the fun stuff and how it all happened.
00:34:03.860And there's riots and street theater and crazy stuff.
00:34:06.400But these were great men. And I think God calls us all to be great men and women. And so we need to know the stories of these great men, because, you know, we're made for that. We're supposed to, you know, look at our times as they look at their times. Is there something that I can do that matters? They really were willing to do that. And you can't help but be inspired.
00:34:29.620And I think, you know, I'm thrilled, honestly, that a lot of people, I mean, if people read the Amazon reviews or whatever, that a lot of people are saying the book is extremely readable.
00:41:44.160So they become villains in the story, even though history hasn't quite painted them that way.
00:41:49.480You realize that they would have loved to see Washington fail.
00:41:53.240They cared more about their careers, militarily speaking, than they did about the cause, whereas most of the principal figures cared about the cause more than their own lives.
00:42:07.220And both of them are humiliatingly, well, both of these figures, Charles Lee and Rachel Gates, get humiliating comeuppances, which again, as I'm doing the research, I don't know where this is going to go.
00:42:21.080And then you discover, wow, both of them completely lose their reputations by the end of everything.
00:42:26.240All they cared about was their reputation.
00:42:28.380They worship their own reputation and they lose everything.
00:43:05.260Well, we have in front of us here a very, very successful author.
00:43:09.040If I were to ask you, if you were leading a seminar now on how to write your first book,
00:43:14.660what would be two, three prescriptions that you could offer our listeners and viewers?
00:43:18.560Well, before I answer the question, I would say, maybe don't write it, because I think a lot of people are convinced I have to write a book. And it's like, I don't know, I don't think the world needs more books. So you better be sure that you have something to say or that you have, you know, because, you know, you don't get extra credit for like producing a quote unquote book. The question is, what do you want to say? And does it need to be said in book form, you know?
00:43:39.600But the main thing I always say is read great writing, read great writing, read writers who love writing and who love words.
00:43:49.880And I pride myself on that, that that that my writing is not just correct or whatever, but that it's compellingly written in a way that I think that's very important.
00:44:00.640And so it's important to read people. Right now I'm finishing a book by Stefan Zweig. He was a famous novelist in the early part of the 20th century. And I'm writing a book by him. And just his style, his prose style is so beautiful and so compelling.
00:44:20.760And yesterday I was rereading Moby Dick and I'm in awe.
00:44:44.980If you are interested in writing, that's the key because there's just a lot of bad
00:44:49.900I host a popular podcast. I get millions of books sent to me. Most of them are not readable. Even I might agree with every syllable, but they're not particularly readable. And so that's actually very, very important to me that you have to have something to say that you're convinced it has to be said in a book form. And then you have to write it in a way that really people don't want to put it down.
00:45:11.980I think that that's if people want to put it down, I would say maybe you can say it somehow more entertainingly or whatever.
00:45:19.300We all have people who tell boring stories and you're kind of, you know, you're looking over their shoulders.
00:45:23.760But those people should have a self-consciousness to say, I don't need to tell this story because I don't know how to tell it in a way that, you know, it's supposed to be for the listener and a book supposed to be for the reader.
00:45:33.660And so I feel we have to set us a high bar in terms of what is the what is the what are the ideas?
00:46:00.840I received as a gift a first edition biography by him of Mary, Queen of the Scots.
00:46:09.420Wow. So, I mean, I should show it to you. It's absolutely breathtaking. Last question, very quick to answer, but maybe the most important question in our conversation today. Did you ever reach out to that grade five teacher that so influenced you? If yes, tell us about it. If no, why not, Eric?
00:46:29.440Well, I would have loved to. He passed away some years ago, I think five or so years ago. And I've thought of him many times over the years. I never dreamt that I would write a book on the American Revolution. I mean, if you talk to me five or four years ago or three years ago, Eric, do you think you'll ever write a book on the American Revolution? I can say, I guarantee you, I won't.
00:46:50.940So when I found myself writing about the revolution and then being haunted by what I heard over 50 years ago, so two of his children reached out to me.
00:47:01.740They heard me speaking on some podcast because I've spoken on many podcasts.
00:47:06.120And I wrote back to his kids, but I want to meet them.
00:47:10.840I really get tears in my eyes when I think of this teacher.
00:47:13.840Wow. I cannot tell I cannot express sufficiently my love for the man who for 180 afternoons taught these ungrateful nine and 10 year olds about American history and filled our minds with Ticonderoga and Henry Knox and Baron von Steuben and just being faithful, just being faithful where he was planted.
00:47:38.000And I quote at the end of my book, I quote the last passage of Middlemarch, where they
00:47:43.260talk about, you know, this woman, Dorothea Brooke, who, you know, that these people,
00:47:49.300these are the people who change the world, who lie in unvisited tombs.
00:47:54.060These are the great people of the world, and we should all aspire to be one of them.
00:47:58.380And so when I think of Mr. McDevitt, Robert McDevitt, I could, I really could cry.
00:48:04.300I look forward to meeting him in heaven because he was he was a great man.
00:48:10.060And it really it's one of the regrets of my life that I was unable to stay in touch with him.
00:48:16.140You know, I'll end very quickly with this and then we'll say goodbye offline.