The Tucker Carlson Show - The Truth About the Biggest Act of Domestic Terrorism in American History

00:00:00.480 Recently, our company's softball team lost the big game by one run.

00:00:04.800 Then Dale tried to console us with the quote,

00:00:07.200 winning isn't everything.

00:00:09.060 Well, Dale and I are very different.

00:00:12.740 I get early payout from Bet365.

00:00:14.680 If my team goes up big, I get paid out instantly,

00:00:17.480 even if they blow the lead later.

00:00:19.540 Sound familiar, Dale?

00:00:21.280 Thanks, Bet365.

00:00:22.920 Must be 19 or older, Ontario only.

00:00:24.420 Please play responsibly.

00:00:25.240 If you have questions or concerns about your gambling

00:00:26.660 or the gambling of someone close to you,

00:00:27.720 please go to connexontario.ca TNC Supply.

00:00:30.000 ever notice whenever there's a history changing act of violence it was a lone wolf it was a lone

00:00:40.680 wolf was a random crazy guy we have no idea why he did it that would be uh the guy who killed jfk

00:00:46.260 and rfk and mlk and the butler shooting i mean it just goes on and on and on almost all shootings

00:00:52.720 in real life are between people who know each other we're trying to steal something from one

00:00:57.440 another, but all the political killings are just some random crazy person. It's weird, isn't it?

00:01:03.120 What are the chances? But when you question the official story, the people in charge

00:01:07.720 don't even respond. They react like people have got something to hide. They just attack you.

00:01:13.640 That's what liars do. Journalists doing their job, which is seeking real answers,

00:01:18.780 are a massive threat to their power. So noticing is the crime. And that's certainly the case with

00:01:25.580 the subject of our new series, The OKC Bomb Files. This is the story of what actually happened,

00:01:32.580 to the extent we know, at the 1995 bombing in Oklahoma City that killed 168 people.

00:01:38.900 Now, you'll recall that the feds told us the bomber was a guy called Tim McVeigh,

00:01:42.840 and he was a veteran white supremacist lone wolf. But over the past 31 years, a lot of evidence has

00:01:50.420 accumulated to suggest, well, really to show, that's a full-blown lie. There were many more

00:01:56.540 people involved in that crime. We're talking to a person today who lost her two young grandsons

00:02:02.740 in that bombing, and she has spent the last 30 years investigating the attack herself. She's

00:02:08.440 smart, she's methodical, she's not crazy, and she has a lot to say. She's here today to tell us why

00:02:15.420 she believes that the FBI's story about Tim McVeigh acting alone is a lie, and who else

00:02:21.300 may have been involved, and how the government knows more than it has admitted. Here's Kathy

00:02:25.760 Sanders. Kathy, thank you so much for doing this. Well, it's my pleasure. Thank you. I think most

00:02:32.200 Americans under, let's say, 40 have only a dim understanding, if any knowledge at all,

00:02:39.180 about what happened in Oklahoma City.

00:02:43.140 Can you tell the outline of the story for us?

00:02:48.120 I'll be happy to.

00:02:53.280 People don't know about Oklahoma City

00:02:55.060 because it's not even in the history books,

00:02:57.660 not even in Oklahoma.

00:02:59.380 What happened to me was on April 19, 1995,

00:03:04.040 I woke up one morning and I went to the bedroom next to mine

00:03:09.100 because my grandchildren lived in my home.

00:03:11.940 My daughter was a young divorced mother,

00:03:14.740 and Chase and Colton lived in our home,

00:03:16.380 and everything in our life evolved around these little boys.

00:03:20.080 And I went in to wake them up, and they weren't in there.

00:03:25.820 And I thought, how strange.

00:03:27.460 So I walked down the hall to the end of the hallway,

00:03:31.120 and sometime during the night, Tucker, those two little boys,

00:03:34.960 two and three years old, had toddled down the hall

00:03:38.460 and gotten in bed with their mother where they spent the last night of their lives.

00:03:43.760 I turned on the light in the bedroom like I did every morning.

00:03:48.300 At our house, we always started with a song.

00:03:50.460 It's like, good morning to you, good morning to you.

00:03:53.040 We're all in our places with sunshiny faces.

00:03:55.680 What a nice way to start a new Wednesday.

00:03:57.940 And the little boys begin to giggle, and we get them ready for school, for daycare.

00:04:03.220 In our home, it was a group effort.

00:04:05.000 Edie's working on the boys, I'm working on the boys, brushing their teeth, and we get

00:04:12.380 them all dressed and take them into the kitchen where we feed them breakfast, and Edie and

00:04:21.240 I load them in the car, because she and I not only lived together, we worked together

00:04:24.780 downtown, and we took the boys and dropped them off at the daycare.

00:04:29.380 I remember the little crumbs on Colton's face when we left him.

00:04:35.920 We went on to our office to go to work.

00:04:40.660 Adie had been sick on Monday and Tuesday before the bombing on Wednesday,

00:04:44.780 and she had kept the boys at home with her.

00:04:47.280 She was going to stay home on Wednesday as well.

00:04:50.680 But on Tuesday night, she got a call from a co-worker that said,

00:04:53.820 Adie, you've got to come to work tomorrow because we're having the office birthday parties.

00:04:58.540 for the people whose birthdays were in April, and it was Edie and another girl's.

00:05:04.560 And so Edie agreed she would come in, but she might go home afterwards if she still felt bad.

00:05:11.160 So she went into the office.

00:05:15.140 I'm two floors above her, and she's walking across the floor to blow out the candles on her birthday cake

00:05:21.060 when the bomb goes off.

00:05:23.260 it's this huge explosion unlike anything I'd ever heard before I knew something had happened and it

00:05:31.400 was bad so she and I I ran the two floors down to her office and I opened the door and everybody's

00:05:41.300 looking out the windows they're trying to figure out what happened someone uh is on the phone and

00:05:49.460 they hang up the phone and they said they just blew up the bank and I said Edie let's go see

00:05:53.480 so we run down three flights of stairs and out the front door of the

00:05:57.300 of our office which was three blocks from the Murrah

00:06:02.140 and there wasn't a car one moving in the street it was like we'd entered the twilight zone

00:06:09.760 we look up the street the bank's intact Edie there's big sheets of plate glass falling down

00:06:17.500 around us. I had no idea what had happened, and Edie turned to go back in the building where it

00:06:24.660 was safe, and I'm walking behind her, and then I look up the street, and I see the smoke rising

00:06:31.540 from the Murrah building, and I said, Edie, the babies. So we take off running, and we get to the

00:06:39.600 south side of the street, and she had tennis shoes on because she was planning on going home in the

00:06:44.920 parking lot was a long way from our building. I didn't, I couldn't keep up with her. I said,

00:06:49.460 80, wait, wait, wait up. We stopped at the South side of the building and we're surveying the

00:06:56.340 damage. And the windows were all blown out of the windows. And there were blinds just

00:07:03.520 dangling in the air, like ruptured blood vessels. It's there. It was just a mess. I've never seen

00:07:09.300 anything like it and then we hear boom boom boom and we see this black billowing smoke

00:07:16.760 and I didn't know what that was but we turned and we ran to the north side of the building

00:07:26.460 and when we did it was the cars in the parking lot blowing up and

00:07:33.040 I turned back to look behind me, and we saw the daycare. The Murrah building was nothing left

00:07:47.260 but just a pancake pile of rubble. And my daughter falls to her knees, and she begins to cry,

00:07:54.860 my babies, my babies. And Tucker, that was the first time in my daughter's life she had a problem

00:08:01.340 that her mother wasn't going to be able to fix.

00:08:05.240 We're running through the rubble trying to find the babies,

00:08:09.540 and a second bomb threat came,

00:08:13.920 and people were running all away from the building.

00:08:16.360 They were stampeding, trying to get away.

00:08:18.800 Another bomb, another bomb.

00:08:20.580 Well, we're trying to get in.

00:08:23.460 And a law enforcement official grabbed us and said,

00:08:27.980 you can't go in.

00:08:28.660 He physically made us leave the area.

00:08:32.040 We were told to go to the children's hospital,

00:08:34.560 that that's where they were going to take the children

00:08:36.900 when they were removed from the building.

00:08:41.140 So at the hospital, I lost all track of time,

00:08:48.380 but my son was an off-duty police officer,

00:08:51.240 and he had seen his mother and sister on TV,

00:08:54.660 and he came downtown and he said,

00:08:56.600 Mama, don't worry, I'm going to find the boys.

00:08:58.360 and he left

00:09:01.000 and he came back

00:09:04.100 and I knew when he walked through the door

00:09:08.720 something was wrong

00:09:10.880 and I jumped up and I said, Danny, Danny, what is it?

00:09:14.360 What is it, son?

00:09:16.140 He goes, Mama, did Colton have on little green shorts and a white shirt?

00:09:19.540 And I said, yes, son.

00:09:21.660 Yeah, that's Colton.

00:09:23.960 And I see the tears on his face and I said,

00:09:26.660 son is the baby gone is the baby gone and he puts his big old arms around me and goes yeah

00:09:34.100 mama i'm sorry colin's gone and he held me for a few minutes and then he set me in a chair and he

00:09:40.300 goes mama where's edie well by this time i couldn't stand watching her grieve the loss of the

00:09:48.200 children i was grieving the loss of the children i was grieving for her it was just horrible

00:09:53.760 And I said, son, she's around the corner in the chaplain's office.

00:10:01.660 And in a few minutes, I heard a blood-curdling scream,

00:10:04.960 and I knew my son had found my daughter.

00:10:08.400 And later that day, he found my oldest son.

00:10:12.020 Grandson had also been toe-tagged.

00:10:14.580 Nothing like this had ever happened in my life.

00:10:17.440 I mean, this was so foreign to me.

00:10:19.320 I remember Tucker telling an interviewer when asked about this,

00:10:26.380 just in the weeks after the bombing, I told him,

00:10:32.080 you know, it won't be very long when I tell someone I lost my grandchildren in the bombing,

00:10:35.980 they'll say, which one?

00:10:37.760 And haven't we come a long way?

00:10:40.660 We've had so many bombings, so many school shootings, the whole world has changed.

00:10:45.540 And I wouldn't believe this story about the bombing if it hadn't happened to me.

00:10:51.460 I would have been one of those people.

00:10:54.500 I live in la-la land.

00:10:56.880 I like to be happy.

00:10:58.580 I would have never believed anything like this could have happened.

00:11:05.040 A few weeks after the bombing, we had a dinner at our home.

00:11:11.320 i reached out to the 19 families that lost their kids we're sitting in the den we're talking about

00:11:20.000 our children people were saying well my little girl lost her arm and i remember one mother saying

00:11:27.000 the only thing i ever seen about my baby again was his toes i got to touch kiss his little toes

00:11:33.280 and another grandmother her baby was grandson was beheaded and then one mother speaks up and she

00:11:43.780 said well when i dropped my son off there i saw the bomb squad downtown we didn't believe her

00:11:50.800 the next day when she dropped her son off that morning of course before the bombing she saw a

00:11:56.140 bomb squad she saw the bomb squad downtown there at the murrah building when she was taking her son

00:12:02.980 in before the bombing before the bomb went off so electrolytes that's a term people are using

00:12:08.600 everywhere suddenly and for good reason staying hydrated is key to health you need electrolyte

00:12:14.740 salts to do that but what salts do you use well we think the answer is redmond salt most electrolyte

00:12:20.820 brands hide where their sodium comes from because the answers are a little off-putting relight by

00:12:26.940 Redmond is a exception to this.

00:12:29.320 Redmond has mined its salt from Utah since 1958,

00:12:33.080 meaning the final product is totally real.

00:12:35.780 Most things at the grocery store are not that real.

00:12:38.500 Sorry.

00:12:39.200 So there's no sugar, no artificial sweeteners,

00:12:41.500 colors, flavors, and not a single chemical preservative.

00:12:44.320 Realite has over 60 trace minerals,

00:12:46.760 great and natural for all of your bodily systems.

00:12:50.180 Whether you're getting ready for a workout

00:12:51.440 or fighting to get through the day,

00:12:53.140 Realite will work.

00:12:54.920 We especially love the mango flavor.

00:12:56.560 at Strawberry Lemonade. Visit redmond.com slash Tucker and use the code Tucker for 15% off your

00:13:02.560 first order. Redmond.com slash Tucker, code Tucker, 15% off, or click the link in the video

00:13:08.200 description or scan the QR code on the screen. Any way you do it. Imagine every time Inverse

00:13:13.860 Kramer or another top investor bought a stock, you bought it too in your own brokerage account

00:13:18.680 automatically. That exists. It's called Autopilot, built by the team behind the viral Pelosi stock

00:13:24.640 tracker you browse strategies run by proven investors and ai driven models pick the one

00:13:29.620 that fits you connect your existing brokerage swab robin hood whatever and every trade they make

00:13:35.180 you make your money never leaves your account autopilot just mirrors the moves no guessing

00:13:40.460 no staring at charts no checking the market between meetings over 1.3 billion dollars already

00:13:46.640 invested autopilot in the app store investing involves risk including loss of principle

00:13:52.340 Recently, our company's softball team lost the big game by one run.

00:13:56.600 Then Dale tried to console us with the quote, winning isn't everything.

00:14:00.920 Well, Dale and I are very different.

00:14:04.600 I get early payout from Bet365.

00:14:06.500 If my team goes up big, I get paid out instantly, even if they blow the lead later.

00:14:11.320 Sound familiar, Dale?

00:14:13.080 Thanks, Bet365.

00:14:14.760 Must be 19 or older, Ontario only.

00:14:16.300 Please play responsibly.

00:14:17.000 If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or the gambling of someone close to you,

00:14:19.580 please go to connexontario.ca, TNC Supply.

00:14:22.100 Enjoy it.

00:14:23.280 So just to be clear for people who aren't familiar with the official version of the story,

00:14:27.020 the government announced very quickly that, of course, they knew nothing about this.

00:14:31.620 And it was an act of terror committed by two white supremacists, veterans,

00:14:42.080 Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols.

00:14:44.400 And that was it.

00:14:46.020 Yeah.

00:14:46.200 Just two crazy people did this crime.

00:14:48.780 That was the version.

00:14:49.580 that was the story that was given to us yes and you know that's the one i thought i should believe

00:14:58.600 of course everyone did but it's like were they down there and it made my husband so mad

00:15:04.180 the next day he went down to the fire station the chief said no we didn't have our bomb squad down

00:15:10.000 down there we didn't there wasn't any prior knowledge because some other people had said

00:15:17.740 they'd seen the bomb squad truck with the bomb disposal unit on the back and so we left not

00:15:27.180 knowing what to think and then the next day we sent an article in a paper where a woman gave an

00:15:32.980 interview and said the people in her office had been watching the bomb squad truck in the alleyway

00:15:38.480 and there were reports of bomb sniffing dogs through the bushes in the alleyway I never

00:15:45.820 directly talked to that person. But as my husband was leaving the fire station, the

00:15:53.340 fire dispatcher there said, I'm not going to lie for anyone. He goes, we got a memorandum in this

00:16:04.440 office last week to be on high alert for terrorist activity. And after that, we found out that the

00:16:10.440 federal courthouse had also gotten that same high alert no one had ever mentioned that to us

00:16:17.720 we didn't know it was a bad day to go to the murrah building and drop your kids off

00:16:24.580 but the dispatcher at the fire station told your husband that i'm not gonna i'm not gonna cover this

00:16:30.820 up i'm not gonna lie yeah that's what he said he said you know we got an alert to be on to be on

00:16:38.560 alert for terrorist activity in downtown oklahoma city and the federal courthouse also got that same

00:16:44.240 alert i mean that raises all kinds of questions um which i hope we get to in this conversation

00:16:53.640 and in the documentary series but i mean if they had an alert that this was coming that raises the

00:16:58.540 question how would they know if it was just two random white supremacists who did this and there

00:17:02.580 was not a larger conspiracy than how how would the government have had warning of this so well i know

00:17:07.800 how they had their warning. As I began to investigate, this was just a first baby step.

00:17:15.440 This story is so big and it goes so far. And stop me if I'm telling too much, but I know

00:17:23.980 how they found out. I learned about an ATF informant who was living at Elohim City. I

00:17:33.160 have her documents of her reports she turned into her handler. She warned her handler that beginning

00:17:43.100 in December of 1994, the informant along with two other individuals had taken trips to Oklahoma City

00:17:55.380 and Tulsa to target buildings they planned to blow up. They took three trips. The handler was

00:18:04.460 brand new to the job, and her reports almost were just written just exactly as the informant

00:18:13.760 turned them in. So someone somewhere had some information there, and Elohim City is a big part

00:18:22.180 of it, Tucker, because not only was that informant warning the ATF of a possible bombing,

00:18:34.340 Timothy McVeigh called there two minutes after calling the Ryder Truck Rental Company.

00:18:43.180 I believe it was two weeks before the bombing.

00:18:45.640 now he asked to speak to a fella by the name of andres strassmeyer

00:18:53.320 and if i was an fbi agent i would be interested in knowing what's going on at elohim city

00:19:03.720 and who this strassmeyer is the fbi never talked to strassmeyer they never interviewed him

00:19:12.880 but they interviewed mcveigh's i don't know she was just like his fourth grade school teacher

00:19:18.880 they interviewed tens of thousands people in connection with mcveigh but they didn't think

00:19:24.840 it was important to talk to strassmeyer also who was strassmeyer he was living at elohim city

00:19:32.740 and he was taking these trips to Oklahoma

00:19:37.460 and to Tulsa planning a bombing.

00:19:42.780 They were planning on bombing something.

00:19:46.020 And the FBI never interviewed him.

00:19:47.860 Now, he was a German national.

00:19:49.120 He was a German national.

00:19:50.900 A year after the bombing,

00:19:52.960 after he was allowed to leave and return to Germany,

00:19:55.800 they called and did a telephone interview.

00:19:58.140 so i mean the only i don't know this of course i can't but the only logically the only reason i

00:20:06.860 can think of that they wouldn't interview him would be that they he was working for them

00:20:11.420 well that would seem logical to me i don't maybe it was a case if the left hand didn't know what

00:20:19.300 the right hand was doing i know that the atf informant carol howe was indeed an informant

00:20:26.320 And I know what Strassmeyer at Elohim City, according to the people there that I visited with, was trying to incite them to do bad things.

00:20:40.520 Why?

00:20:41.880 And why did he leave the country?

00:20:44.260 And why wasn't he ever interviewed?

00:20:47.040 I mean, McVeigh calls him two minutes after calling the Ryder Truck Company.

00:20:51.460 There has to be some kind of connection.

00:20:53.660 But he just disappeared.

00:20:56.320 Is he still alive?

00:20:57.540 Yes.

00:20:58.720 Has he ever been interviewed by the FBI that you know of in person?

00:21:03.320 Not to my knowledge, no.

00:21:06.880 And there's more about Elohim City if you want to hear it.

00:21:10.340 Let's go back to your story.

00:21:11.880 Okay, okay.

00:21:13.580 And I do want to hear it.

00:21:14.500 But first I want to understand how it dawned on you in the middle of your grief,

00:21:19.140 having just lost your two grandsons, that there was more going on here.

00:21:23.100 So you learn that a bomb disposal squad has been seen at the site of the bombing before the bombing.

00:21:31.840 Your husband asks the fire chief, he denies it, but the dispatcher basically confirms it.

00:21:36.400 That's right.

00:21:38.520 What happens next?

00:21:40.580 Well, next we've got the largest manhunt in American history going on for John Doe No. 2.

00:21:46.360 Who is John Doe No. 2? The accomplice.

00:21:49.360 He's Timothy McVeigh's accomplice.

00:21:51.340 that the fbi was looking for him they first they were looking for john doe one and john doe two

00:21:59.040 they found john doe one from the the vin number off of the vehicle so they traced him back to

00:22:09.240 junction city the rider truck that exploded that had the bomb in it the ammonium nitrate fuel oil

00:22:15.540 bomb exploded of course but the axle from the truck had the vin number had the vin number on it

00:22:23.160 and then the registration and the information they got from the rider truck company they located

00:22:31.080 timothy mcveigh but according to the people where they rented the truck there were two men

00:22:36.920 and so there was a john doe too and so there was this largest manhunt in american history for john

00:22:45.000 Doe two, $2 million reward. And in just a couple of weeks, the FBI said, you know what? It was all

00:22:51.560 a mistake. There is no John Doe number two. And that Eldon at the body shop was mistaken.

00:23:03.940 Well, you know, maybe I could have dropped it at that. But we started investigating

00:23:12.020 early on when I thought something was wrong and I finally went down to I talked to Stephen Jones

00:23:22.060 McVeigh's defense attorney and I said look if you want to point the finger at the other people

00:23:30.380 that were involved I'll help you and so I worked with his investigators McVeigh's investigators

00:23:38.140 so i was privy to doc documents that's how i found out about carol howe the informant the

00:23:45.900 atf informant that's why i had access to her documents uh that's how i knew that there were

00:23:55.160 way over 20 people that had seen timothy mcveigh downtown that morning in the presence of this

00:24:03.980 John Doe 2. I had their 302 witness statements. I went and talked to them. There was Rodney Johnson,

00:24:12.320 the catering guy, delivery guy. He sees McVeigh with a guy walking across the street.

00:24:22.120 There's Jeff Davis, the delivery boy that delivered Chinese food to McVeigh's room

00:24:32.340 in Junction City. It wasn't McVeigh that he gave the food to, and there was another man in the room.

00:24:41.660 There were Dana Bradley. She was on the first floor of the Murrah building

00:24:47.960 with her mother, her sister, and her two children. When the bomb went off, it killed her mother and

00:24:57.740 her two children. She fell down to the basement. You'll remember she was pinned in the rubble and

00:25:03.440 they had to cut her leg off to get her out of the rubble. She tells the FBI and I watch her testify

00:25:12.460 at the courtroom that she and her sister were people watching. They were just standing there

00:25:19.360 in front of the windows of the social security waiting for their number to be called and they're

00:25:24.920 just watching people go by and they're kind of making fun of someone i don't remember what it

00:25:29.520 was but they were just people watching and killing time and they see the truck drive up they see

00:25:36.580 mcveigh get out and they see someone get out of the passenger side and take off running and at the

00:25:42.380 trial the fbi said well she doesn't know what she's talking about because she's been traumatized

00:25:47.420 imagine crawling into bed and you feel like you're floating and then wake up rested with

00:25:52.120 No soreness from a stiff mattress.

00:25:54.040 Well, you could do that.

00:25:55.800 All you got to do is switch to Brooklyn Bedding.

00:25:58.800 We can imagine what you're thinking.

00:26:00.440 A mattress like that must be super expensive.

00:26:02.620 It's probably made in some faraway land.

00:26:04.600 But no, Brooklyn Bedding, as the name suggests, is an American company.

00:26:10.320 It's got a 650,000 square foot facility in Arizona, an American state.

00:26:15.120 A guy called John started it and built it from the ground up right here in the U.S.

00:26:19.480 With no college degree, by the way.

00:26:21.220 That happens.

00:26:22.120 A lot.

00:26:24.020 Brooklyn makes mattresses for every sleep style, every body type,

00:26:27.000 and it uses temperature regulation to make sure you stay cool throughout the evening.

00:26:31.320 They also offer a 120-night sleep trial.

00:26:34.520 That means you can return your mattress if you're not in love with it.

00:26:37.260 We don't expect that to happen.

00:26:39.180 Brooklyn Bedding has been awarded the best mattress by CNET,

00:26:41.880 the best hybrid mattress by Wirecutter.

00:26:44.780 Lots of people love it.

00:26:46.380 Check it out.

00:26:47.580 BrooklynBedding.com.

00:26:48.660 Use the promo code TUCKER at checkout for 30% off.

00:26:51.640 site-wide during the fall sale.

00:26:53.960 It's brooklynbetting.com, promo code Tucker, 30% off, site-wide.

00:26:57.840 And if you see a survey after checkout, let them know who sent you.

00:27:01.760 Recently, our company's softball team lost the big game by one run.

00:27:06.080 Then Dale tried to console us with the quote,

00:27:08.480 winning isn't everything.

00:27:10.400 Well, Dale and I are very different.

00:27:14.020 I get early payout from Bet365.

00:27:15.820 If my team goes up big, I get paid out instantly,

00:27:18.820 even if they blow the lead later.

00:27:20.800 Sound familiar, Dale?

00:27:22.640 Thanks, Bet365.

00:27:24.240 Must be 19 or older, Ontario only.

00:27:25.760 Please play responsibly.

00:27:26.580 If you have questions or concerns about your gambling

00:27:28.020 or the gambling of someone close to you,

00:27:29.100 please go to connexontario.ca TNC Supply.

00:27:32.100 Insurance operations today are fragmented

00:27:34.400 and policyholders expect more.

00:27:37.400 That's why leading insurers run on Adyen.

00:27:40.040 From premium collection to claims payout,

00:27:42.560 Adyen supports the entire insurance value chain,

00:27:45.400 giving insurers full control over how money moves.

00:27:47.800 A single platform to reduce fragmentation, complexity, and risk.

00:27:52.940 Drive revenue, control claims cost, and power your next move with Adian.

00:27:57.600 Learn more at adian.com.

00:28:02.220 There's just dozens of people that saw McVeigh downtown with other people.

00:28:11.280 And what's really mystifying, if you were prosecuting Timothy McVeigh, wouldn't you call a witness that could place him at the crime scene?

00:28:20.240 You would.

00:28:21.800 The prosecution didn't because every witness they had that saw McVeigh downtown that morning at the crime scene saw him with another guy.

00:28:30.740 Mike Morose at Johnny's Tires.

00:28:32.620 McVeigh drives up there.

00:28:35.800 Mike comes out to his car to greet him.

00:28:41.280 And McVeigh jumps out of the truck like he's keeping Mike away from the truck.

00:28:46.280 And he's asking for directions to the corner of 5th and Harvey.

00:28:51.960 And then he jumps back in his truck and he sits there a few more minutes.

00:28:56.000 Mike watches him as he and the other guy drive off.

00:29:01.900 Danny Wilkinson worked at the Regency Tower just one block and across the street from the Murrah building.

00:29:11.280 the truck pulls up McVeigh comes inside according to Danny Wilkinson he buys two Cokes and a package

00:29:18.940 of Marlboro Reds McVeigh didn't smoke so he obviously had someone with him the the list

00:29:28.200 just goes on and on but John Doe too was totally dismissed he never happened

00:29:35.080 And when we were talking about the bomb squad being downtown, I had access to the payroll records from the ATF.

00:29:51.540 There were ATF agents brought in the night before the bombing.

00:29:57.420 They will admit that they were working on a sting operation, but they won't admit that it was at the Murrah Building.

00:30:05.080 my theory is perhaps and this is just a theory based on the evidence i've gathered but

00:30:13.760 perhaps they knew the building was going to be blown up and the information they had was the

00:30:19.420 building would be blown up in the wee hours of the night when no one came to blow up the building

00:30:24.480 they called the bomb squad to give a clean sweep and then they let everybody enter i mean i i don't

00:30:33.000 know. I can't explain a lot of things. I don't know everything, but I think I know a lot more

00:30:38.720 than some people inside the government wish I knew. Well, that's obvious from the way they

00:30:43.480 responded to you. So you got a visit from the ATF to your home, correct? We did. After, on May the

00:30:52.220 23rd, 1995, they imploded the Murrow building. And there was a lot of dissension about that.

00:31:01.400 There were some that didn't want it imploded and some that said it needed to be.

00:31:06.960 But by this time, see, that's been a month after the bombing,

00:31:10.600 and we're really hitting hard and heavy now because we're thinking things are not right.

00:31:15.240 We're making accusations and bringing things to light about the John Doe II and this stuff going on,

00:31:21.240 and we're really getting kind of scared.

00:31:23.920 So we're thinking when we go down there and we see that building,

00:31:26.980 we're going to let reporters know that we think there's a problem so I remember a CNN reporter

00:31:37.960 came over to my daughter and said Edie what do you think about the the bomb or the building

00:31:45.400 being imploded and she goes I want to know where the hell was the ATF why weren't they in that

00:31:50.260 building. And she just went off on them. And so the next day, Pat Ryan, the head of ATF, a couple

00:31:59.680 of ATF agents, and including one Luke Franey, they came because they wanted to calm us down,

00:32:07.080 that everything was okay. And they told us the ATF wasn't there because they were at a golf

00:32:12.820 tournament that was happening that morning. Luke Franey, his hands bandaged up, and

00:32:20.940 he tells us his harrowing story about how he had to karate chop his way out of the building

00:32:30.160 because he was stranded on the ninth floor, and that's how he hurt his hand. Later, I found

00:32:38.160 sheriff's video of Luke shaking hands with the sheriff. So I don't know how bad his hand was

00:32:45.620 hurt. I don't know. It just kept your mind wondering. But the thing that caused me the

00:32:51.420 greatest concern about Luke Franey was the AP reporter had a picture of him on the ninth floor.

00:32:58.880 He's holding a little silver lock box and 168 dead people behind him or underneath him.

00:33:08.160 He's standing there with this silver lock box, shaking it,

00:33:12.500 and there's 168 dead people below him and all these hundreds of walking wounded.

00:33:18.280 And I'm thinking, man, whatever's in that box has got to be really important.

00:33:22.800 Went to Franey.

00:33:24.700 We asked, what did you have in that box?

00:33:28.280 Oh, I'm sorry, I can't talk about it, can't tell you.

00:33:31.760 Well, then Hal Francis, a former FBI agent that was working on a story,

00:33:36.500 that is an acquaintance of mine

00:33:41.620 I told him about this

00:33:43.020 he took Luke Franey out for lunch

00:33:46.960 and he asked about that lockbox

00:33:50.360 and Luke Franey told him

00:33:52.240 oh it was $150 worth of my kids savings bonds

00:33:56.340 why couldn't he tell me that

00:34:00.400 and would you really be 168 dead people below you

00:34:04.500 and all that walking wounded

00:34:06.060 and you're trying to save the lockbox with your children's savings bonds,

00:34:11.060 that just didn't add up.

00:34:12.840 See, I'm a simple person.

00:34:16.060 Two plus two equals four.

00:34:18.480 The facts of this case do not lead up to there was one bomber

00:34:24.720 that came into Oklahoma City and blew the building up.

00:34:29.120 Terry Nichols was in Harrington, Kansas, the morning of the bombing.

00:34:32.640 you know they're gary terry nicholas nichols is the convicted accomplice of timothy mcveigh

00:34:40.820 who was executed terry nichols remains in prison that's right and there was a third one michael

00:34:46.300 fortier but fortier uh cut a plea deal with the government and he was every bit as good as

00:34:54.960 guilty as Terry Nichols, but he only had to spend 10 years in prison, and he was caught lying under

00:35:04.400 oath three different occasions, and he got a plea deal for his wife. She never spent a night in

00:35:11.080 prison, and she testified at McVeigh's trial how she sit at the kitchen table and watched McVeigh

00:35:16.680 show her with Campbell's soup cans how he was going to put the barrels in the back of the truck to

00:35:22.960 blow up the building so 48 spent 10 years in prison and when he got out he is now in the

00:35:31.040 witness protection program who are they protecting him from things just don't add up so 48 has never

00:35:39.600 given an interview that you're aware of no no have you ever spoken to him no i took his wife

00:35:45.520 out for dinner though i went to kingman arizona and we went to the damn bar and uh i said you know

00:35:53.200 i'd like for you to tell me about your part in the bombing you know i know about you sitting

00:35:59.300 with mcveigh and doing the barrels and and she begins to cry and said i'm sorry i can't tell you

00:36:05.100 my lawyer she told me i can't talk about it and i said well okay if you can't tell me how the

00:36:10.960 bombing affected you let me tell you how it affected me and i pulled out pictures of chase

00:36:16.480 and colton and uh and i told her how different our lives were and the tragedy that we've been

00:36:23.980 through and i said you know i really wish you would help me and uh at the end of the night

00:36:30.120 though she said you know i uh would you write to michael he was in prison at that time i said

00:36:37.140 well I don't what do you want me to say and she goes I don't know but I think you'll know

00:36:43.820 I said okay I'll write to him so I wrote to Michael Fortier told him I'd had dinner with

00:36:51.620 his wife I found found her to be a a very nice person very broken person and he wrote back

00:36:59.960 that I felt like he was deceiving me at least Lori told me she couldn't talk he said

00:37:06.980 I'm glad you saw her for the person she really is.

00:37:11.920 I've got his letter at home.

00:37:13.360 It's been 30 years.

00:37:14.300 I can't remember what it was.

00:37:15.540 But it was like he didn't have anything to do with it

00:37:18.880 or he didn't know about it.

00:37:20.840 And it's like that's so untrue based on the evidence that's been recovered.

00:37:27.400 And you have no idea where he is now?

00:37:29.740 No, he's in the Witness Protection Program.

00:37:32.000 He's probably got a new name and everything.

00:37:34.540 I suppose we're probably supporting him, right?

00:37:37.100 Oh, of course we are.

00:37:37.920 Yep.

00:37:38.540 Most people don't like thinking about life insurance.

00:37:40.660 It's one of those topics you tend to kind of put off.

00:37:42.760 But if you're married, you've got kids, you've got people who depend on you,

00:37:46.300 you probably should think about what would happen if you weren't around.

00:37:49.380 And that's why we've partnered with Ethos.

00:37:51.240 They've made getting life insurance super easy.

00:37:53.660 You can do the whole thing online.

00:37:54.940 You don't have to sit down with an agent or go through a medical exam.

00:37:57.800 You get a quote in seconds, apply in just a few minutes,

00:38:00.780 and in some cases you get coverage the same day.

00:38:02.640 You just answer a couple of simple health questions.

00:38:04.940 You get up to $3 million in coverage.

00:38:07.220 Some policies can be yours for as little as $30 a month, so it's a good deal.

00:38:12.160 If you've been putting off life insurance because you thought it would be a very complicated,

00:38:15.580 expensive process, you should probably check out Ethos.

00:38:18.660 Take a couple of minutes, get your free quote online at ethos.com slash Tucker.

00:38:23.500 Ethos is E-T-H-O-S dot com slash Tucker.

00:38:28.280 Application times obviously vary as do rates, but we think it's pretty good.

00:38:32.640 so the atf comes to your house to quote calm you down did it have that effect did it calm you down

00:38:39.260 no no we had two of the agents that were in the building they told us that when the bomb went off

00:38:48.640 they were in an elevator and that they free fell from the top of the ninth floor to the first floor

00:38:54.120 and they were they were uh trapped in the elevator and they had to pry the doors open

00:39:00.400 well it just so happened my husband uh was cpa and he worked for that elevator company

00:39:07.580 we went and interviewed the men at the elevator company they said as soon as the bomb went off

00:39:13.020 they were called to come down there and to help get people out and to check on the elevators

00:39:18.200 and they said there was no elevator that had been pried open and he they said kathy if the

00:39:26.060 elevator had free fallen from the ninth floor to the first floor they would have been dead

00:39:31.540 of course so i don't know i know i don't have answers for this all i know is that

00:39:39.900 doesn't seem to make sense to me

00:39:41.700 so if you were interviewing michael fortier's wife and the elevator company that installed

00:39:52.440 the elevators at the morrow building in oklahoma city i mean you were doing reporting on this

00:39:57.020 oh tucker you have no idea i i've spent the last 32 years i've i've had

00:40:04.560 i i've had i've had some of the bombers family come to my home mcveigh uh yeah his family his

00:40:16.520 sister came, I had her to my home for dinner when I knew she was in Oklahoma. She, most people don't

00:40:23.780 realize that she also cut a deal with the government. She, she testified against her

00:40:31.020 brother. In her confession, she says that she was laundering hundred dollar bills for her brother

00:40:38.820 that he told her came from bank robberies.

00:40:44.580 Well, there's a group of bank robbers living at Elohim City,

00:40:50.100 the place that the ATF informant warns her handler.

00:40:54.420 These people are planning a bombing.

00:40:56.800 They're living at Elohim City, and they're bank robbers,

00:41:01.500 and she's laundering money that Tim says came from bank robbers.

00:41:05.760 anyway and when the FBI came to Jennifer's home the first time she was on her back patio

00:41:15.720 with her charcoal grill burning the letters from her brother but yeah I've and Jennifer I had her

00:41:23.360 at my home and I asked her you know can you tell me about your brother's politics and she said

00:41:29.660 oh no I'm sorry he never discussed that with me well I knew that wasn't true and my daughter just

00:41:39.840 lived two blocks from me by this time and she had a new baby and I thought well I'll take Jennifer

00:41:46.540 over to meet the baby her brother didn't kill it's what I thought in my heart but I took her

00:41:53.780 over to Edie's, but I didn't get anything significant from her. But I've been to Elohim

00:41:59.940 City. I've had guns pointed at me. Edie and I did when we drove up to Elohim City. The armed guards

00:42:08.760 came out with guns. I've been to the... Whose armed guards were they? Elohim City's.

00:42:16.700 I told Edie after I learned what I did, I said, Edie, we need to go to Elohim City. I want to

00:42:23.580 know what's going on out there. I had been told that if you go there, you have to, if you want

00:42:31.180 to talk to them, you have to attend their church service. They had church service every day at

00:42:35.000 noon. So we're driving up. It's just about time for church. I mean, it is in the boonies. I've

00:42:42.960 never seen anything like it. Where is it? It's at the Muldrow, Oklahoma, Arkansas border. And

00:42:50.720 you have to know, and I had learned from the defense team where it was, and you have to know

00:43:00.960 where you're going to get there, because it is in the middle of nowhere. And then we're driving up

00:43:05.280 there, and there's a sign that says Elohim City, which, by the way, is Hebrew for city of God.

00:43:11.260 There's these big domed buildings, unlike anything I had ever seen before. And I grab

00:43:19.380 the camcorder which at that time was as big as a bazooka and I put it on my shoulder and I start

00:43:28.200 filming because I'm thinking no one's ever going to believe I've been here

00:43:31.680 and then Eddie says put the camera down mom put the camera down and I throw the camera

00:43:37.020 into the floor and there are two men coming with the guns to our car pointed right at us

00:43:44.720 I rolled the window down, and they said, can we help you?

00:43:48.120 And I said, yeah, I'm here for church.

00:43:51.480 So our armed escorts took us into the church.

00:43:55.620 And when we got inside the church building,

00:43:58.500 which is another one of the round domed buildings with stuff oozing from the top,

00:44:03.260 it was set up like a horseshoe type.

00:44:06.240 The parishioners were around the perimeter of the building,

00:44:11.640 and the iron cross band was playing and these guys had guns on their shoulders and sidearms

00:44:17.840 on their waist and it'd be the iron cross band was playing and they were singing some kind of

00:44:22.580 glory and guns to god and then uh when they quit playing reverend but no reverend millar

00:44:32.240 looks at us and he says well i see we have guests

00:44:38.220 and he said would you stand and introduce yourselves so we stood up and i said well

00:44:45.780 this is my daughter edie we lost her grand her children in the oklahoma city bombing

00:44:52.300 and i said we're atf's worst nightmare and they stood up and gave us a standing ovation

00:44:59.920 and so we were welcomed into the fold afterwards they gave me a tour of the compound they showed

00:45:08.100 me Andreas Strasmeier's house, Dennis Mahon, which is the man that also accompanied Carol Howe and

00:45:17.360 Andreas Strasmeier. It was the three of them that made those three trips. So I found out where Carol

00:45:23.520 was staying. I really wanted to see where Richard Wayne Snell was buried, but they wouldn't show me

00:45:29.760 that. Who was Richard Wayne Snell? Richard Wayne Snell was a part of the covenant, the sword and

00:45:36.360 arm of the Lord. And 10 years earlier, the FBI had raided their compound on the same

00:45:45.040 day as Oklahoma City bombing on April 19th. And Snell got in a lot of trouble. He killed

00:45:54.040 an Arkansas pawnbroker, shot an Arkansas state trooper, and some of it was out of revenge

00:46:02.520 for what had happened at his compound on April 19th, 1985.

00:46:12.400 Snell then was executed in Arkansas,

00:46:17.940 and Arkansas officials chose to execute him on April 19th, 1995,

00:46:25.580 the day of the Oklahoma City bombing.

00:46:27.500 But here's what gets peculiar.

00:46:29.980 On the day of his execution, according to the prison death watch logs, Snell asked for the TV to be turned on in his cell, and he smiled and chuckled as he watched the Oklahoma City bombing.

00:46:48.220 His spiritual advisor was Robert Millar, the head of Oklahoma City.

00:46:54.580 Of Elohim City.

00:46:55.520 His spiritual advisor was Robert Millar, the head spiritual advisor of Elohim City, and he was taken back and buried at Elohim City.

00:47:10.440 I mean, all the roads keep going back to Elohim City, Elohim City.

00:47:15.680 And coincidentally, at Snell's sedition trial, it came out a trial that he had planned to blow up the Murrow building some 10 years earlier out of revenge for the raid on the covenant, the sword and arm of the Lord.

00:47:36.340 I mean, this story just is so big.

00:47:38.860 It's so big.

00:47:40.000 But all roads come back to the same direction.

00:47:43.140 If you're under 40, you might not know much about what the FBI describes as the deadliest act of domestic terror in our history.

00:47:51.060 Bombing at the federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995.

00:47:55.320 We felt this.

00:47:56.380 All the official stories are simple and they're all the same.

00:47:59.000 Timothy McVeigh, acting alone, bombed a federal building and in so doing killed 168 people, including almost 20 children.

00:48:06.000 What an emotional experience.

00:48:07.740 The government quickly declared the case solved.

00:48:10.120 But three decades later, many questions remain.

00:48:12.760 Did Timothy McVeigh really act alone?

00:48:14.900 There is a strong likelihood that other persons are involved.

00:48:18.640 Why were so many obvious warnings ignored?

00:48:21.020 It's pure chaos.

00:48:22.220 And who was he with?

00:48:23.320 A man called John Doe No. 2.

00:48:25.340 Who was John Doe 2 and where was he?

00:48:28.300 We spoke with survivors, investigators, law enforcement, even Timothy McVeigh's defense attorney.

00:48:32.700 The story that he was telling me, I did not feel was the truth.

00:48:37.720 Watch the OKC Bomb Files, streaming exclusively on talkercarlson.com.

00:48:43.440 Recently, our company's softball team lost the big game by one run.

00:48:47.700 Then Dale tried to console us with the quote,

00:48:50.160 winning isn't everything.

00:48:52.020 Well, Dale and I are very different.

00:48:55.700 I get early payout from Bet365.

00:48:57.600 If my team goes up big, I get paid out instantly,

00:49:00.440 even if they blow the lead later.

00:49:02.420 Sound familiar, Dale?

00:49:04.200 Thanks, Bet365.

00:49:05.860 Must be 19 or older, Ontario only.

00:49:07.400 Please play responsibly.

00:49:08.120 If you have questions or concerns about your gambling

00:49:09.640 or the gambling of someone close to you,

00:49:10.720 please go to connexontario.ca and see supply.

00:49:12.760 leading insurers know that fragmented operations don't cut it anymore policyholders expect more

00:49:19.260 and modern insurers meet those expectations with adion from effortless premium collections to

00:49:24.860 instant claims payouts adion's single platform automates the entire policy life cycle one

00:49:30.600 platform to manage how money moves control claims fraud and automate operations adion

00:49:36.920 FinTech built for your next move.

00:49:41.080 What do you think Timothy McVeigh's role in all of this was?

00:49:44.740 Do you believe he was the bomber?

00:49:47.800 Yes, I believe he was the bomber.

00:49:50.100 I think he was happy to be the bomber.

00:49:51.840 I think he was happy to have the credit for it.

00:49:55.400 He was the one person that I reached out to a number of times,

00:50:00.000 and he would never respond.

00:50:03.840 One time I knew a law journalist that was going in to see him,

00:50:08.340 and I sent a picture of Chase and Colton on there to him,

00:50:13.340 and I said, I'd really like to talk with you.

00:50:15.520 And the reporter said he just shook his head and said,

00:50:19.980 well, I don't know what to think of this.

00:50:23.560 You think he was happy to take credit for it?

00:50:25.500 You don't believe he acted alone?

00:50:27.840 No, there is no way he acted alone.

00:50:30.280 At Gary Lake, where they built the bomb, the prosecution and the defense agreed that the bomb was built at Gary Lake.

00:50:41.280 Well, there were several eyewitnesses at Gary Lake that watched men coming and going from the truck.

00:50:53.100 The activity went on all day.

00:50:55.120 sergeant sergeant had just uh retired his first day of retirement he went to the lake to go

00:51:02.100 fishing to celebrate he watched those men there all day you know there were people with him there

00:51:09.640 were people in the dreamland motel room the chinese delivery uh delivery person jeff davis

00:51:17.620 that's not who he left he didn't leave the uh chinese food with tim mcveigh it was

00:51:23.620 some other people. The maid, Hilda Sostra, she took towels to the room, and the man that answered

00:51:33.120 the door wasn't McVeigh, and she was complaining to Leah McGowan, the owner of the hotel,

00:51:40.360 about that there were other men in that room. David King, he was a guest at the hotel.

00:51:46.620 He saw the men coming and going from McVeigh's room.

00:51:53.300 Leah McGowan that rented in the truck, she would walk the perimeter,

00:51:57.960 and she heard men talking in there.

00:52:01.480 It's like, who were these men?

00:52:03.640 Because McVeigh drove the Ryder truck with the bomb in it

00:52:09.580 from the front doors of the Dreamland to the front door of the Murrah building.

00:52:15.640 whoever was there with him were important and the fbi never bothered to find them i wonder why

00:52:23.940 well i wonder why too i mean the most obvious explanation is that the people with mcveigh

00:52:31.700 were fbi informants and the fbi knew all of this was happening and that they were monitoring it

00:52:37.820 but for whatever reason didn't stop it and they're hiding that fact that's i mean i think that's the

00:52:44.580 conclusion most people would draw it's very logical i've taken all the information

00:52:49.860 that i have gathered over the last 32 years and i've written three books about the bombing i mean

00:52:57.640 my life the the bombing really changed my life uh the first one was when i started asking questions

00:53:06.320 the second one's when i learned to forgive which is the greatest story and this third one that i

00:53:11.920 just wrote, Shadows of Conspiracy. I call it a historical novel because I've created the story

00:53:20.120 based on the facts that I have, but I've had to include the dialogue that I believe the men would

00:53:25.080 have been having to create this thing. And it is a page-turner, barn-burner kind of book. It's a

00:53:32.080 really good read. If you want to know, my story in that book is much closer to the truth than what

00:53:39.320 the american people so what if you could just summarize what you think likely happened what

00:53:45.560 is the truth of oklahoma city after 32 years of looking into it do you think

00:53:50.400 well i don't have the whole truth of course i have the uh you know i think they knew

00:54:00.140 carol howe had warned them the government knew the government knew i think they tried to stop it

00:54:06.400 I think they were there the night before, and I think that's why they called the bomb

00:54:13.000 squad in, and, you know, if they were trying to stop it and just flubbed it up, I could

00:54:21.080 appreciate that, you know, say, you know, we worked hard, we tried to stop it, we're

00:54:25.560 really sorry, but we tried.

00:54:29.760 It's been hanging like this, I don't know what to think.

00:54:33.100 there is to me there's something not right there's something sinister about it clearly

00:54:39.000 what kind of contact have you had with the fbi since that day since april of 95

00:54:44.320 well oh i've talked to i've talked to different ones i've had uh

00:54:52.780 uh danny colson uh i write about him in my book he was the agent that was brought in

00:55:02.640 after the bombing, and they brought in the team of the FBI's elite to

00:55:10.660 cover the story of the bombing, or to investigate the bombing, I should say.

00:55:18.840 And I found out 10 years after the bombing that Danny had retired, and I thought, well,

00:55:25.480 maybe he'll tell me, now that he's retired, he'll tell me about what, you know, what really

00:55:32.540 happened. I called him on the phone, and he lives in Dallas. He agreed to meet me. I took all, I have

00:55:41.340 three ring binders. I had a trunk full. I loaded my car with those three ring binders. I went to

00:55:47.880 Motel 6. I put all those binders out on that bed, and then a tap came at the door, and I knew it

00:55:57.500 was Danny because we had a specific time. I answered the door, and at that time, he looks

00:56:03.300 like Simon Cowell. He's got on that black tight t-shirt and blue jeans and had hair. He doesn't

00:56:11.100 anymore, but he comes in and I said, I just have some questions, you know, and I start pulling out

00:56:19.500 binders. Why didn't you talk to Carol Howe? You know, why didn't anybody pay attention to the

00:56:25.540 information that she's given him? And he's looking at, then I'm pulling out Jennifer McVeigh's

00:56:32.620 confession that she was laundering the hundred dollar bills for her brother. I said, look at

00:56:39.260 this the Midwest bank robbers that's the name the FBI gave them they're living there at Elohim

00:56:45.320 City why didn't why didn't they do anything and Andres Strassmeyer McVeigh calls him two minutes

00:56:53.380 after calling the Ryder Truck Company why didn't you why wouldn't he ever interviewed

00:56:59.480 and I could, Danny's countenance was changing and he said, man, he goes, that explains it.

00:57:13.280 I said, explains what? And he said, Kathy, after the bombing, the FBI brought in their finest

00:57:21.260 to investigate and he said, I was called off and put on leave with pay

00:57:28.420 I've been on leave with pay the last 10 years I don't know anything about these things he said

00:57:36.220 you probably have more information in one place than any other organization because I've had

00:57:41.900 information from everybody and he said he was very very nice he said you need to get a federal

00:57:48.400 grand jury is the only way you're ever going to get this solved well before I could get to Nichols

00:57:54.240 to tell him to do that.

00:57:56.680 He doesn't trust anyone.

00:57:58.620 Terry Nichols.

00:57:59.060 Terry Nichols.

00:58:01.160 They came and I approached him about a grand jury

00:58:06.120 and he wouldn't agree to it.

00:58:08.040 But Danny, I'll never forget that day

00:58:10.840 because at the end of our meeting that day,

00:58:14.140 he said, aren't you afraid?

00:58:18.160 I said, I don't know.

00:58:19.560 Who should I be afraid of?

00:58:21.520 And he said, well, the people that you could get convicted

00:58:23.860 possibly put to death. I said, no, I don't have that much sense. I'm just doing what I believe

00:58:30.220 is the right thing to do. Edmund Burke said, evil flourishes when good men do nothing.

00:58:36.680 Something needs to be done. Will something be done?

00:58:44.500 I don't know. I've been trying for 32 years. I hope we come to the truth.

00:58:52.260 You said that you forgave Timothy McVeigh?

00:58:56.840 I did.

00:58:58.540 How and why?

00:58:59.800 Okay.

00:59:02.760 I never set out planning to forgive anybody, really.

00:59:09.860 I didn't.

00:59:12.880 But I had such grief.

00:59:16.860 There wasn't anything I could do about that grief.

00:59:21.380 But there was something I could do about the anger.

00:59:25.440 And I watched my husband die.

00:59:29.500 And I believe his anger and the bitterness and hatred that he harbored in his heart killed him.

00:59:39.020 Oof.

00:59:39.900 And I said...

00:59:41.140 How old was he?

00:59:41.940 47.

00:59:43.060 Oh, gosh.

00:59:44.380 And I remember...

00:59:45.820 He was mad.

00:59:47.000 He was mad at God for not answering our prayer.

00:59:51.380 Because we came home the day of the bombing, and one of the parents of a child that lived

00:59:58.240 is by his side in the hospital, and he says, well, looky here, God answered our prayer,

01:00:05.660 our boy lived, which I would have said too if our boys would have lived, but I've learned

01:00:09.940 don't do that.

01:00:12.000 You can thank God that your boy lived, but God's not a cherry picker.

01:00:16.480 He didn't go through that day and think, oh, I'll let this one and this one and this one

01:00:20.380 perish and I'm going to save these others. I mean, because it made us feel really bad. So Glenn was

01:00:25.480 really mad at God. He was mad at Timothy McVeigh. I heard him say a dozen times the day he dies,

01:00:33.420 he's going to spit on his grave and toast his death with a bottle of fine champagne. Well,

01:00:38.980 Glenn wound up dying before McVeigh, but he was really mad at the government because he didn't

01:00:44.120 believe he had been given the truth. And watching him die scared me. I said, God,

01:00:51.160 I don't know why this happened, but I know if I have a chance of making it, I'm going to have

01:00:58.100 to depend on you. I can remember after the bombing, John Walsh of America's Most Wanted,

01:01:05.320 he spoke to a group of survivors and he looked at us and he said, you will grieve and you will

01:01:13.080 grieve deeply, but you will survive. Up to that point, I didn't know if I would survive. I'd even

01:01:18.960 thought about killing myself because I didn't want to live in that kind of pain, but I couldn't do

01:01:23.800 that to my husband and to my daughter. So I said, Lord, you're going to have to help me.

01:01:31.740 I can't live like this. You're going to have to help me.

01:01:36.320 I've since learned that forgiveness isn't an event. It's a process.

01:01:41.140 I can remember when I read my Bible, I read the Lord's Prayer,

01:01:46.580 Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

01:01:52.380 And when I got to that part, I said, Lord, I don't know how to do that.

01:01:58.620 I said, Lord, you're going to have to sit your Holy Spirit to intercede for me.

01:02:03.380 I don't know how to do this.

01:02:05.300 and Tucker when I began to pray for Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols it began to change

01:02:12.400 my life I don't know what it did for Terry or Tim I I went to

01:02:20.660 Terry Nichols trial right after my husband died and in there was a break in the in the hallway

01:02:32.780 there was a little lady there with a brown coat on long brown coat she was over there by herself

01:02:40.020 nobody was talking to her but I could see they were talking about her and I thought oh my god

01:02:45.760 that's Terry Nichols mother and I go over and I begin to introduce myself and she begins to cry

01:02:52.140 and I put my arms around her and I said I'm so sorry for your family

01:02:57.960 and we became great friends during the court I sit with my friend Joyce I sit with Joyce we ate

01:03:09.120 lunch together I know the other families didn't understand why I was sitting with the Nichols

01:03:14.920 family but she did became I felt like she was a forgotten victim and she did become my friend

01:03:24.060 when the trial was over the jury forewoman said we can't give terry nichols death

01:03:34.320 because we don't know how he's guilty but we don't know how guilty who were those other people with

01:03:41.420 him at the dreamland motel who was with them out there building the bomb at gary lake and so they

01:03:47.520 got off. But Oklahoma had a backup plan. So after his federal trial, he didn't get the death penalty.

01:03:57.640 They brought him to Oklahoma and Oklahoma planned to have a state trial and hope to get him

01:04:04.020 executed. Well, just a couple of days after I returned home, I went to my mailbox and there's

01:04:11.160 a letter from Terry Nichols. And I'm looking at that and I'm thinking, I'm not looking for a pen

01:04:18.600 pal. And if I was, it wouldn't be the Oklahoma City bomber. And then I thought, who's going to

01:04:25.440 know more about the bombing? That's crazy. So I began to write to Terry. And he said, if you'll

01:04:32.600 send me your phone number, I'll call you. So he began to call me. I learned a lot from him.

01:04:40.600 He wasn't raised at a Christian home.

01:04:43.660 He said they only went to church for weddings or for funerals.

01:04:47.880 And he said, we went then for a free meal.

01:04:49.760 And he just kind of laughed about it.

01:04:52.400 But he said once he was arrested, in his cell was a Gideon Bible,

01:04:58.520 and he read it cover to cover.

01:05:00.760 And then someone gave him an AM radio,

01:05:03.640 and he listened to an old radio preacher that told him

01:05:07.040 if he'd invite Jesus into his heart, that Jesus would cleanse him of his sins

01:05:12.160 and forgive him for all unrighteousness.

01:05:15.140 And he said, Kathy, I did that.

01:05:17.560 Now, I know a lot about, you know, there are no atheists in the foxholes,

01:05:23.140 and I know a lot about jailhouse religion.

01:05:26.480 I'm nobody's judge, but I chose to believe him.

01:05:31.580 Some people would say, oh, Kathy, he doesn't deserve mercy.

01:05:38.840 And I said, well, yeah, you're right, he doesn't.

01:05:41.700 If he deserved it, it wouldn't be mercy.

01:05:44.380 Fair.

01:05:45.420 So Terry's son hadn't seen him, Josh, in four years.

01:05:51.840 He was 12 at the time of the bombing.

01:05:53.680 He was 16 at that time.

01:05:56.200 McVeigh had just been executed.

01:05:57.820 and Josh was very disturbed his mother called and said you know Josh is having a hard time

01:06:06.080 where I'm going to bring him to Oklahoma to see his dad I said well come stay with me

01:06:10.840 and she said well I'm not sure that Josh would be comfortable I said well that's okay just come

01:06:17.560 by and have dinner he's not comfortable I understand so when they came to the door that

01:06:23.180 night. I answered the door, and what was a short, fat kid's not a tall, good-looking kid, and I look

01:06:30.380 up at him. I mean, what do you say? Me being the wise woman that I am, I said, well, I knew you

01:06:36.880 were coming, so I baked a cake, and we began to laugh. We had dinner. Josh and I stayed up until

01:06:44.640 the wee hours of the night. He told me how the kids at school had nicknamed him Bomber, and how

01:06:50.200 he'd randomly get beat up when he walked down the street and how that he dropped out of school

01:06:55.280 and i had not told anybody i didn't tell my family i didn't tell my neighbors i told no one because

01:07:03.680 i didn't want it to be a press release or press event that i've got the bombers family at my home

01:07:10.220 and they wound up staying for four days and the last day Josh asked me and I didn't take them

01:07:20.500 anywhere I just cooked for them kept them at the house and Terry's lawyer would come over and see

01:07:27.640 them and stuff and they'd go see Terry but I didn't go out publicly with them and on the last

01:07:33.180 day josh said kathy would you take me to the memorial and it's like oh at that time everyone

01:07:41.320 knew who i was in oklahoma city i'm thinking oh no i hope they don't recognize him but

01:07:46.060 how could i tell him no after what he had been through

01:07:49.160 but i could tell you to hug her when i took him to the memorial

01:07:55.360 and I stood at chairs number 60 and 61 with my arm around the bomber's son that God had done a

01:08:06.600 work in my life and I've just it it amazes me the transformation you know John Walsh was right

01:08:16.760 I did survive here I am 32 years later I made the decision to forgive and I think it changed

01:08:25.340 the ending to my story

01:08:27.200 it's a wonderful story

01:08:31.620 thank you

The Tucker Carlson Show - September 04, 2026

The Truth About the Biggest Act of Domestic Terrorism in American History

Episode Stats

Transcript