This Past Weekend with Theo Von - #674 - Scott Payne

00:00:00.000 Today's guest is a retired FBI special agent who spent 28 years in law enforcement, a lot

00:00:06.600 of that undercover.

00:00:08.120 He infiltrated some of the most dangerous groups in America, motorcycle gangs, drug

00:00:13.540 traffickers, the cartel.

00:00:16.340 He has a book out called Codename Pale Horse, How I Went Undercover to Expose America's

00:00:22.440 Nazis.

00:00:23.680 We go way down the rabbit hole in this one.

00:00:26.880 We want to let people know that some of the stories in this one can be a little bit graphic.

00:00:32.020 I had a nice chat with today's guest, Mr. Scott Payne.

00:00:36.160 Scott Payne, the author of Codename Pale Horse.

00:00:56.640 That's your book.

00:00:57.680 And you had some good names, too.

00:00:59.380 I saw that big country they called you. 0.58

00:01:01.220 Yeah, I'm more like Schmedium now, but yeah. 0.95

00:01:03.660 Oh, yeah, you coming down, huh? 0.98

00:01:05.340 You de-escalate.

00:01:06.840 I'm aging.

00:01:07.900 Where are you from?

00:01:09.800 Born and raised in Greenville, South Carolina.

00:01:11.700 Oh, dude, that's a beautiful city.

00:01:12.820 Yeah, born and raised there, lived in Charleston, played ball in Charleston, South Carolina,

00:01:17.140 but I'm in East Tennessee now, man.

00:01:19.200 Hey, man, man.

00:01:20.200 Well, welcome to Tennessee, dude.

00:01:21.600 To catch our listeners up, for those who don't know, you spent 28 years in law enforcement,

00:01:26.360 right?

00:01:26.560 And so that was in police work, SWAT, FBI, undercover, and that was undercover with drug

00:01:33.500 trafficking, cartels, white supremacist groups. What about your life before law enforcement made

00:01:41.260 you think that that's a direction I want to go in? Well, it's not. I mean, it's one of those

00:01:46.220 things you look back and you go, oh, I can see what's happening. I didn't really know what was

00:01:49.860 happening at the time, but I just love connecting with people. I mean, I go into great detail in

00:01:55.520 the book, but like in high school, when I was in high school in the eighties, you had a smoking

00:01:59.660 area oh yeah you know you go out there with your cigarettes you know and then you had like I could

00:02:04.980 go I could hang in in in almost every crowd that's all it's not saying I could be one of them

00:02:11.400 necessarily I could just be accepted so potheads I'm there jocks I'm there musicians I'm there

00:02:18.040 you look back and you see these things uh but something about I don't know if it started when

00:02:23.420 I became a cop but like some of my mentors there's a guy named Gary Ward who was at the Greenville

00:02:30.180 County Sheriff's Office in South Carolina and he was the strongest man in the late 80s so he came

00:02:35.340 in after like Bill Kazmaier he was he was a Marine former Marine but at that time he was a Marine and

00:02:40.260 he won the heavyweight class and bench squat and deadlift so now he's on narcotics and he's this

00:02:46.900 jacked big dude with that yeah goodness gracious that's him oh my goodness baby dude look at him 0.61

00:02:54.820 and he got bigger and then look at the thighs on they would damn sell him at auction yeah when i 0.98

00:03:00.140 met him he had a i mean he had a beard and everything and yeah i bet he damn goes to the 0.97

00:03:04.420 toilet and his yard just grows better dude you know i used to ask him i go we'd be at the gym 0.72

00:03:08.880 and i'm like uh i'm like man i never see you doing like this exercise or exercise like this

00:03:13.820 but man, your neck and your shoulders are, he said, son, when you pick that much weight up off

00:03:17.800 the ground, something's going to grow. I was like, all right, man. Yeah. He used to bust my chops,

00:03:23.400 man. He helped me perfect my squat. Squat was my strongest lift. So, you know, so you had a role

00:03:28.660 model like that kind of, and he had done undercover and biker stuff and I was becoming a

00:03:33.580 bike. I mean, I grew up on motorcycles, but I mean like riding like American made, you know,

00:03:37.500 Harley out there going to rallies and all that stuff. And, uh, he had done that and I don't know

00:03:42.280 If that's what gave me the bug, all I know is that, like, it doesn't matter during that

00:03:48.360 time frame, that 80s, 90s.

00:03:50.000 It doesn't matter if it was the cheesiest undercover movie.

00:03:53.260 I loved them all.

00:03:53.960 Amen.

00:03:54.420 Loved them all, man.

00:03:55.520 Things like that have an effect on your life.

00:03:57.440 The people you meet in the gym have an effect on your life.

00:04:00.140 Yeah.

00:04:01.220 So you get into police work over there in Greenville, South Carolina.

00:04:04.380 Do you remember a day that it just got real?

00:04:06.860 You're like, oh, this is, now it really feels real, kind of.

00:04:10.280 Oh, man.

00:04:10.820 If you're uniformed patrol, I mean, most people, I guess, if you're not a cop,

00:04:17.200 you don't think this way or know it, but you just see so much trauma and stuff,

00:04:21.620 and you get desensitized, sort of.

00:04:24.440 I mean, we compartmentalize it, and we're not very good at it,

00:04:28.280 and that's why first responders, and I'm including medic, fire, and military,

00:04:34.200 if we're not number one, we're very high for divorce, suicide, substance abuse,

00:04:39.040 and dying within five years after retiring so it's a pressure cooker but like going in uniform you

00:04:44.460 could show up on all kinds of stuff i mean i've shown up and nothing more there's plenty of men

00:04:51.300 and women in law enforcement that have done more and seen more but you know you go into a place

00:04:55.820 and it's you know a trailer caught on fire and the person died in the position where they were

00:05:00.300 trying to crawl out the way i mean it's just all kinds of stuff somebody gets hit by a train you're

00:05:04.360 finding pieces of stuff.

00:05:07.440 Do you remember a day where you were like,

00:05:09.100 I don't know if we're really trained for this kind of?

00:05:13.440 Well, the thing that's jumping in my head right now

00:05:16.800 is because I'm still a tactical instructor.

00:05:18.520 I'm an instructor with ALERT.

00:05:21.520 It's spelt with two R's, A-L-E-R-R-T.

00:05:24.200 But the FBI and ALERT married in 2013,

00:05:27.700 and it's the national standard for training law enforcement

00:05:30.360 and how to respond to active shooter events.

00:05:31.800 so uh i was just i was we were just putting on a class last week in east tennessee so that's a

00:05:37.960 national organization alert yeah so we do get in all kinds of stuff stopping the killing stopping

00:05:42.160 the dying and then you got to do casual evac but that what i was saying if you're asking about

00:05:46.960 something like greenville county um i had a good friend of mine die in the line of duty and and

00:05:53.160 this is what we're trying to do a lot of times we're training we're just saying man just slow

00:05:56.160 down just a little bit you know i get it you know young gunning i'm still got plenty of testosterone

00:06:01.240 drone than me and you want to just bust in there and run into rooms and there's a safer way to do

00:06:07.340 it um but what happened to my friend is we weren't really getting the training at that time

00:06:12.480 but uh he was the city uh i was i was county but he was city but his the edge bumped up to each

00:06:18.800 other right so he sees somebody's got a lot of warrants on him jumps out chases him on foot

00:06:22.740 chases him into a building somebody clocks him in the head with a board and now you got tunnel

00:06:27.600 vision now he's like all he's seeing is this even though he got hit in the head with the board he

00:06:30.740 calls it out but he sees the guy running and and russ was in shape russell sorrow he was in shape

00:06:36.280 man he took off after him and we just hadn't had the training to slow down enough to stop and think

00:06:43.400 to pan and and use use distance and angles and he ran right because it was a hard corner and he ran

00:06:50.220 right past the bad guy and the guy shot him in the back and when he went down he walked up and shot

00:06:54.740 him three times directly in the back of the head and they rolled him over and shot him in the mouth

00:06:59.580 in the eye in broad daylight so but if we would have had that training and you got to get the

00:07:06.000 reps you got it and it's sad to say but most places are they don't have the budget anyway but

00:07:12.880 at least in my experience when they're having budget problems the first thing that gets cut

00:07:17.320 is training wow and then something bad happens and then you look and you go how did that happen

00:07:21.060 and then you look and people that are out there in the industry that have the skill sets they're

00:07:24.860 like well there's a lack of training they didn't know what to do you know oh yeah the rep i mean

00:07:29.480 yeah you you say the reps man the muscle memory just the idea you know it's like because otherwise

00:07:34.560 i'm sure you're running on adrenaline and i don't know how much i don't know chemically what

00:07:40.240 is in adrenaline if there's a part of it like of the chemical be some endorphins i mean it's

00:07:45.640 gonna be like it's gonna probably be like a epinephrine or something right right yeah there's

00:07:48.780 not something in there that's like hey relax yeah it's not that one yeah it's the opposite of

00:07:53.540 relax so we may need some new adrenaline yeah it's uh so when we're doing those trainings we

00:07:58.360 call it a stress inoculation so out there on the range get you and or maybe when we're doing force

00:08:03.740 on force with the marking cartridges you're in a mask you're in a helmet enclosed neck protector

00:08:08.680 and you'll hear people all the time say man i couldn't hear anything when we're doing the test

00:08:13.540 say hey this is how you put the mask on put it on you stand up there and you go hey can you hear the

00:08:17.060 sound of my voice and everybody raises their hand it's not it's not the helmet it's your stress

00:08:20.740 wow so you do that and we we often refer to it as you bleed on the range so you don't die in the

00:08:25.800 street but it takes the reps there's so many videos i can show you military and law enforcement

00:08:30.440 where the officer has no idea how many rounds they've shot they have no idea that they did

00:08:35.220 a magazine exchange they had no idea that they did it behind cover but they did it because they

00:08:39.800 trained so it became until it became instinctive or like you said muscle memory yeah when things

00:08:44.100 get intense man yeah it's hard to sit back and like and and and remember what occurred yeah

00:08:51.040 much less yeah yeah when you're having an adrenaline dump um and it could be any traumatic

00:08:56.300 experience it could be your first car wreck i remember my first car wreck everything that

00:08:59.340 goes to slow motion yeah you're just like whoa and everything's a time dilation so your eyes

00:09:05.180 click you're just getting screenshots because it's not a smooth transition your auditory exclusion

00:09:10.320 you sound like you feel like you're underwater everything's like you just hear whoa whoa whoa

00:09:15.940 and it's just everything so you can feel your heart beating through your whole body i will say

00:09:20.580 though studies have shown that the better physical shape you're in the quicker you'll recover from

00:09:25.860 those adrenaline dumps so adrenaline dump is a it's a real thing that you you guys yeah that's

00:09:30.920 what i call it but i mean there's probably another term for it but no this is let me see right here

00:09:34.460 it says an adrenaline dump is a sudden large release of the hormone adrenaline epinephrine

00:09:39.400 from your adrenal glands that rapidly flips your body into fight or flight mode followed by a

00:09:45.080 downshift once that surge clears and related stress hormones settle um breathing rate increases

00:09:52.900 and airways relax to pull in more oxygen quickly blood flow is redirected away from digestion

00:09:58.320 toward muscles heart lungs and brain so you can move and react faster and that's on perplexity

00:10:04.940 wow that's interesting yeah i just didn't know that and you can come in and out of it you know

00:10:08.680 you can be like in a situation have the adrenaline dump and then you start okay things are calming

00:10:13.300 down now you're coming back to normal and then something else happens you're like oh dadgummit

00:10:16.720 and you're going right back down to another adrenaline dump so and and in your work you've

00:10:20.120 probably kind of ridden those of like a lot over the years almost like waves kind of yeah like 0.92

00:10:24.660 you're surfing a little bit yeah but i don't like that kind of surfing fool gosh man i never thought

00:10:29.440 about like that that's something i mean you always hear the term oh you have an adrenaline dump but

00:10:33.820 i've never really kind of looked at it as to see exactly what's kind of occurring in that in those

00:10:37.800 moments uh so you you end up moving i'm assuming from police work uh to SWAT is that kind of how

00:10:45.640 it went because i remember i heard you talk one time about those jump out boys right yes and i

00:10:50.200 remember reading about jump out boys like even down in louisiana and stuff oh yeah it was like

00:10:54.700 these sort of like it was kind of this new thing that was happening this is what we gathered is

00:10:58.000 just regular back in the 5-0 days everybody was 5-0 everybody was 5-0 dude anybody yelling it on

00:11:03.320 the corner five oh i'm like i'm not even in a mustang bro you see a white dodge neon and people

00:11:09.060 yell five or even you just see a white guy that hadn't been out in a while yeah and people would

00:11:13.560 yell five oh man you're trying to earn some money on the corner by being a lookout those were the

00:11:17.260 day bro five oh five and everybody would run didn't even matter dude um but yeah but the jump

00:11:24.420 out boys it was it was kind of an unmarked car group that was kind of taking on drug trafficking

00:11:28.780 that's what that's how we always heard about it like so it's not SWAT uh at the sheriff's office

00:11:33.000 I didn't get on SWAT I got on SWAT in the FBI got it but I did make vice of narcotics investigator

00:11:38.820 and that's your jump out boys it's usually your narcotics unit it is we're rolling out I mean 0.53

00:11:42.840 being young and dumb you know I'd be out late at night single partying I'd come in and thankfully

00:11:49.580 Gary didn't like beat me up or nothing but I remember we've had to drive like 40 minutes to 0.94

00:11:53.540 where we're gonna do a jump out I said hey I'm just gonna nod off a little bit about five minutes

00:11:57.640 out if you'll just wake me up let me know i wake up and i'd go all right all right because you're

00:12:02.060 young i mean you're you know nothing's not popping when you stand up you know and you just go like

00:12:06.720 all right man we're rolling up and van door opens you start running from a dead sleep

00:12:11.580 chasing you and what so i guess i'm guessing they didn't breathalyze y'all before 0.58

00:12:16.680 your shift i wasn't drunk i was just tired oh damn the night before i might have been a little

00:12:22.480 snockered but yeah you know i'm just i had the hair of the dog amen what were some of those calls

00:12:28.000 like a lot of those so so the jump out stuff you're going to be going to somewhere that's got

00:12:32.920 a lot of reporting or incidents recorded of high drug trafficking so you're going to be pulling up

00:12:39.140 and it may be it may be quick buys you may run an undercover in um to make a buy and then you

00:12:45.680 either they identify them or you've got it on camera and they're coming so you go through and

00:12:49.400 It's like, all right, the dude's wearing a yellow coat, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:12:52.160 And then they just pull in right after that and jump out and grab them

00:12:54.440 because they just sold up if you want to do it that quick.

00:12:57.460 Other times it might be, for me, once I was in the FBI,

00:13:00.220 it was really source development.

00:13:01.480 I'd go out there with the state and locals and, you know, observe.

00:13:07.740 Just get involved.

00:13:08.560 Yeah, you hop in.

00:13:09.860 You hop in, and sometimes you can get some good information.

00:13:14.340 So as you're coming up through the police department, what makes you –

00:13:17.660 Like, is the police department, is the activity there kind of not enough?

00:13:21.260 Or is there, like, are you in a search for more?

00:13:24.640 Like, what makes you want to kind of evolve your career to try other genres of law enforcement?

00:13:29.820 There's a couple of things that happen.

00:13:31.580 Number one, the pay.

00:13:33.720 Okay.

00:13:34.200 You're at the sheriff's office for five years.

00:13:36.320 You don't get any raises.

00:13:37.460 County council gives themselves raises.

00:13:39.520 Happens all over the United States.

00:13:41.200 Not just Greenville, South Carolina.

00:13:42.560 What were y'all getting, Matt?

00:13:43.600 What were y'all getting?

00:13:44.040 Oh, man, I don't know.

00:13:44.920 that would have been

00:13:47.080 93 to 98

00:13:49.340 I was a cop so I don't know

00:13:51.060 50, 60 grand

00:13:52.280 who knows

00:13:53.240 but as a cop you're also moonlighting

00:13:56.440 you're doing all kinds of side jobs

00:13:57.920 you get off of work

00:14:00.540 and then you go to Frankie's Fun Park

00:14:02.100 or some golf thing and you sit there

00:14:03.780 or you go to the Dollar General

00:14:06.220 and you sit

00:14:06.980 shoplifting and stuff like that

00:14:09.960 and you get extra money

00:14:10.920 so working like security gigs, side gigs

00:14:13.060 Yeah.

00:14:13.360 Yeah.

00:14:13.840 Referee and all kind of stuff.

00:14:15.140 Yeah.

00:14:15.380 You forget that.

00:14:15.900 I forget that.

00:14:16.480 The police officers do all kind of stuff.

00:14:17.880 They would be umpires for our game a lot of times.

00:14:20.360 They'd be refereeing basketball.

00:14:21.520 I forgot about all that.

00:14:22.660 Or, yeah, or that's your side.

00:14:23.860 Maybe if you're in uniform, you might see the cop at the high school game.

00:14:27.200 That's a side job.

00:14:28.060 Got it.

00:14:28.340 You know, you're getting paid for that.

00:14:30.000 But I looked at the pay because after five years, it was kind of like, man, I'm not making

00:14:36.120 anything, even though I was a two striper at that point.

00:14:38.720 But it's like you look at they would raise that.

00:14:41.740 It was weird because they would raise the the hiring rate, the pay for the hiring.

00:14:46.320 So starting rate.

00:14:48.280 But at some point, I probably could have literally quit, walked out the door and came back in with a four year degree and make more than what I'm making, which doesn't make any sense.

00:14:55.720 And you also look at it and you're like, I'm never I'm never going to max out my retirement.

00:15:00.160 Look, look at how much we're making, how little we get.

00:15:02.360 I'm never going to hit peak unless I live to be 100 and they let me work as a 100-year-old cop, you know, in a wheelchair, you know.

00:15:09.480 But I looked at that, but I was really starting to get a lot more exposure as far as I was learning more about the federal agencies

00:15:17.580 because we would go out and help them with the rest and stuff.

00:15:20.500 And I really didn't know.

00:15:21.860 I thought the FBI just worked bank robberies because that's the only time I ever saw them.

00:15:25.380 And I had a sergeant, he said, and my nickname at that time was Kingpin.

00:15:30.020 And he said, Kingpin, if I was you and I was a single man and I had a four-year degree,

00:15:35.100 he said, man, I would put in for the FBI and I'd list New York as my first office.

00:15:38.500 And I thought.

00:15:39.080 You said, I'd list New York as my first office?

00:15:40.900 Yeah, I'd put New York as, I want to go to New York and that, you know.

00:15:47.260 New York, yeah.

00:15:48.220 And I told him, I was like, are you, what are you smoking?

00:15:51.120 I'm like, there's no way I'd go to New York.

00:15:52.680 What are you talking about?

00:15:54.420 I started applying because I thought, I said, oh, they work, what do they do?

00:15:57.240 And he goes, he said, Scott, they do everything.

00:15:59.560 and I'd heard that it was harder to get hired with them,

00:16:03.720 and I took it as a challenge.

00:16:04.580 I filled out that one first, and I never filled out another one.

00:16:06.880 It took about probably a year to get through the whole process,

00:16:10.280 but the polygraphs and the physical fitness and all the backgrounds,

00:16:14.640 and then there's tests you have to take,

00:16:16.020 and then there's another interview test,

00:16:18.000 and then you get to the academy.

00:16:20.080 You get your letter, and I arrived in Quantico, Virginia on 9-27-98,

00:16:25.860 and 9-28's your first day.

00:16:28.160 Dang.

00:16:28.260 and before we go into your first day when it comes to the fbi what were some of the like the the

00:16:33.200 criteria that they were looking for were there unique tests and stuff that they had you do along

00:16:37.800 the way that that uh or even experiences that in hindsight may have been used to weed people out

00:16:43.280 that you're able to notice now oh yeah i mean there's all i mean the like the phase one test

00:16:49.680 because you tickle me i'll tell you what's going on yeah right right you know i'm saying that's i

00:16:55.180 I mean, I was very truthful on the polygraph I did,

00:16:57.180 but I sat in the box for like three and a half hours.

00:16:59.220 I'm like, I don't know what you mean to tell you.

00:17:00.480 I'm not lying, you know?

00:17:03.020 But that phase one test, it has like,

00:17:05.820 there's like questions they ask you, you know,

00:17:07.740 would you be more likely to,

00:17:09.060 and they're giving you scenarios and stuff.

00:17:10.480 But there was this math part.

00:17:12.600 And I had to go back,

00:17:14.160 and I had good grades in college and stuff,

00:17:16.060 but I don't remember any of that.

00:17:17.260 I didn't remember any of the geometry

00:17:19.360 and all the other stuff, algebra.

00:17:21.260 I was like, I don't remember this stuff.

00:17:22.540 Yeah, nobody does it.

00:17:23.140 So I go, unless your job has you doing it for something, right?

00:17:26.600 Nope.

00:17:26.880 If you walked up to 95% of people that graduated those classes right now, 1.00

00:17:30.560 I bet they couldn't tell you shit. 1.00

00:17:32.600 They couldn't tell you shit. 1.00

00:17:33.640 I walk in and— 0.99

00:17:35.120 Because nobody's using it because sometimes it's like there's a missing dog in your neighborhood or something. 0.98

00:17:38.760 If somebody shows up with geometry to find a damn missing dog, I'm pointing at them, brother. 0.98

00:17:43.600 They got that pup. 0.99

00:17:44.780 I look at it like this.

00:17:45.960 It helps you find ways to solve problems is the way I kind of look at it.

00:17:49.860 That's a good attitude.

00:17:50.600 That's, you know, but—

00:17:53.140 My, so the middle section was math.

00:17:55.800 Okay.

00:17:56.240 Now, they do look for certain backgrounds.

00:17:58.220 When I was coming in, if you were an accountant, CPA, that's good.

00:18:01.700 Attorney with you past the bar, that's good.

00:18:04.580 Former military, intel, foreign language speaking, and diverse.

00:18:09.080 And I came in under diverse.

00:18:10.380 So four-year degree, three years of experience, but I was a former cop.

00:18:13.680 So that helped if they're looking for that.

00:18:16.560 So they're bringing all types into the FBI.

00:18:18.200 Oh, it's completely diverse.

00:18:19.300 Yeah.

00:18:19.520 I mean, you got former doctors, former biochemists.

00:18:22.880 Really?

00:18:23.200 Yeah, it's insane.

00:18:24.220 So it's not just police officers, huh?

00:18:26.360 No, no, especially not in the FBI.

00:18:28.600 Huh, I never thought of that.

00:18:29.960 I always just feel like it's police and then it's, and they evolve.

00:18:33.800 Or military, yeah.

00:18:34.440 Yeah, or military, and they evolve into working with the FBI.

00:18:37.160 One of my best friends that went through the academy with me,

00:18:39.500 he was a former Walmart manager, and he smoked the fitness test,

00:18:43.080 and he was a great agent.

00:18:44.360 So, I mean, it's like, yeah, all kinds of backgrounds.

00:18:46.720 Actually, I think that's one of the strongest points of the FBI

00:18:49.040 is their diversity.

00:18:52.280 but sometimes we place people in the wrong places you know yeah oh once they're in yeah yeah oh i

00:18:58.000 could see that like you got knuckle dragger like me and you want to stick me on some highfalutin

00:19:03.060 i don't know health care fraud squad yeah it's not me yeah yeah now but if you want to put somebody

00:19:09.960 into the health care fraud squad that's familiar with rolling back prices yeah an accountant or a

00:19:15.260 former medical person right or a former walmart employee there you go there you go and that's

00:19:20.220 the guy we need so i'm more of the greeter yeah yeah i'm that guy oh yeah yeah yeah like oh they

00:19:25.360 got him out here for a reason you know um yeah and sorry i interrupted you man so so uh so you're

00:19:31.160 going through the phase one test right yeah so there's questions there's there's a there was

00:19:36.560 basically three parts but the middle part was all that algebra and geometry and all this stuff and

00:19:42.180 i mean i studied i studied and studied but as i walk in i see i've already met some people and

00:19:47.060 And they're full-blown CPA accountants who've been doing this.

00:19:50.080 When we walked out of that thing, I saw them going, I don't even know what that was.

00:19:54.520 I think I failed.

00:19:55.360 And I'm like, well, if you failed, I know I failed, man.

00:19:58.440 I'm like, this is your world, man.

00:20:01.020 But I just started just circling stuff when I was running out of time.

00:20:04.880 I know, dude.

00:20:07.400 The law of averages was on my side that day.

00:20:09.960 And you passed.

00:20:11.020 Pick C.

00:20:11.760 I just went out.

00:20:12.720 Yeah, that's what you hear.

00:20:13.900 Yeah, I guess I did.

00:20:16.160 I don't know if it was something to break you, like to throw you off mentally, just to stress you out.

00:20:21.740 Because then the third part was backed into questions again.

00:20:24.520 So, like if you've ever taken the MMP2 for a job, it's MMP2 something.

00:20:29.560 It's like 547 questions.

00:20:32.600 And a lot of places have it.

00:20:33.840 And even our psychological unit has it.

00:20:35.900 And I think you have to take it like once every two years or four years.

00:20:39.500 But, I mean, it's like so many different ways to ask the same question.

00:20:43.740 but if you are hiding something under the surface,

00:20:47.940 I don't know, maybe when you get stressed somewhere in there,

00:20:50.580 psychologically, it's going to slip out on the back end.

00:20:52.980 Oh, that would make sense.

00:20:53.800 Yeah.

00:20:54.020 Because sometimes a simple word, one word changing something.

00:20:56.420 It's a little change.

00:20:57.160 A little bit of thing, an angle, how, why. 0.97

00:20:59.540 So you do find your mother sexy, and you do like harming small animals,

00:21:03.080 and you are fascinated with fire,

00:21:04.840 because at the beginning of the test, you weren't, you know?

00:21:07.380 Yeah.

00:21:07.840 And then they walk you out.

00:21:09.080 Yeah.

00:21:10.500 So I have some hobbies, you know?

00:21:12.200 But, no, I love what you're saying, man.

00:21:15.040 The turn of phrase a little bitty bit can lead to something so different.

00:21:18.240 And also sometimes just waiting.

00:21:20.040 When somebody thinks you're going to talk, just waiting.

00:21:22.680 Yeah.

00:21:23.200 And then their energy sometimes is.

00:21:25.040 Oh, yeah.

00:21:25.700 Starts eating them up.

00:21:26.540 Yeah, you got to fill the space.

00:21:27.740 I got to say something.

00:21:29.020 Because what does their silence mean?

00:21:30.300 Does their silence mean something?

00:21:31.580 Yeah, they know.

00:21:32.820 And then you start to interpret in your head, what does their silence mean?

00:21:35.880 And that's kind of a crazy.

00:21:36.760 Maybe I wasn't completely truthful.

00:21:38.840 Yeah, and maybe I wasn't completely clothed.

00:21:42.200 you know? Um, yeah, man. Wow. Yeah. This is interesting stuff. Thanks for your time today,

00:21:47.220 man. Thank you for having me. Okay. So you get through, you get through the testing,

00:21:50.600 you pass that and then you were in, when do people go to Quantico? Is that then?

00:21:55.560 Pretty much. I don't know. Cause that's what you hear about in all the movies.

00:21:58.600 Yeah. If you, it depends on, uh, I know you have to pass phase two, but I can't remember

00:22:04.420 when the polygraph falls in and when the physical fitness test, but basically all that you're going

00:22:08.800 go to phase one you're going to polygraph background huge background thorough thorough

00:22:13.800 background because you could you're going to be going into a job where you could get top secret

00:22:17.200 clearance so yeah it's it's like they know everything every credit card you got any any

00:22:23.720 debt you've got do you have to sit and tell some secrets and stuff about yourself that you didn't

00:22:27.620 want to tell or how well no because i'm transparent that's just me i mean i'll just tell them i mean

00:22:32.340 i'm not gonna hold it back i'm not gonna lie and really in the fbi i don't know right now because

00:22:37.760 i didn't work under cash but um i retired under ray and i came in under louis free but

00:22:44.540 if you lie under inquiry and that's recorded you're kind of dead to us because you can't

00:22:51.860 go testify anymore and you can't go build a case because you're going to have to release that you

00:22:56.540 were caught lying and then the defense is going to eat you apart so so the truth has to the truth

00:23:01.860 is the only way to get there right so i've seen some people do some or have read about in in

00:23:08.520 quarterly reports some things that employees have done whether they're uh whether they're

00:23:14.000 gun toters or whether they're professional staff but in mitigation if they didn't lie i mean

00:23:18.940 they're gonna try to get you help and stuff but but then you read the next thing and it's like oh

00:23:23.920 somebody was called to the table on time and attendance fraud like they were

00:23:27.400 fudging the numbers under inquiry they lied dismissed fired and you're like well if i've

00:23:34.420 learned anything don't lie don't lie don't lie wow and it's crazy that you would then end up in a

00:23:40.200 world where you're going undercover where it's like okay now now i'm lying yeah yeah except for

00:23:45.100 now now i'm going back to scott yeah as you guys know moon pay is my go-to place to buy crypto

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00:26:09.760 about the training for fbi scott so it's pretty standard uh test it's like the cooper institute

00:26:15.660 standard but but basically when i came in you had to be able to pass a two mile run a certain amount

00:26:20.720 of time you had to be able to do uh at a sprint course they called the shuttle run you start on

00:26:25.640 your back you sprint like 25 yards turn on a cone back down back down that kind of stuff and then

00:26:30.700 push-ups sit-ups pull-ups um but that's just the pass or fail stuff and then you get in and you

00:26:37.140 basically, I mean, Quantico, I look at it like the, remember that old 80s movie, the

00:26:41.680 biodome with Pauly Shore and everybody, right?

00:26:43.860 That's what I look at it like, because I have been in that building for four days and realized

00:26:48.900 I have not gotten fresh air.

00:26:51.100 I've not stepped outside this building.

00:26:53.380 Yeah.

00:26:54.000 Yeah.

00:26:54.300 So you can go from, yes, so you can go from, that's Jefferson right there at the front.

00:26:57.520 That's where I stayed.

00:26:58.520 You can go in and from Jefferson, you go down to the cafeteria, you get your breakfast and

00:27:03.620 then you go to class.

00:27:04.580 You go to lunch, you go back.

00:27:06.100 You can go to your room, go to the gym, go to the boardroom at night,

00:27:08.960 hit the bar, go back, and you never step foot outside.

00:27:11.960 Wow.

00:27:13.120 And that's our track at the back.

00:27:14.420 It looks different now.

00:27:16.000 Or you know what?

00:27:16.660 No, they did put a building in the middle of it now.

00:27:18.820 There used to be a nice ropes course and all kinds of stuff.

00:27:21.540 But a lot of running, a lot more running than I ever did.

00:27:24.920 I was a lineman.

00:27:26.380 So once you were there, that became a big part of it was the physical conditioning.

00:27:29.360 Yeah, and you're in class all day.

00:27:31.260 You're learning all kinds of stuff.

00:27:32.780 I mean, you're getting legal.

00:27:33.920 You're doing this.

00:27:34.600 And then we're in Hogan's Alley learning tactics, firearms range, learning how to be a better shooter.

00:27:41.660 What was one of the more unique classes kind of that you took that kind of stood out?

00:27:45.380 I always loved anything forensics.

00:27:47.300 Like even though we all know how the O.J. Simpson trial turned out and everything,

00:27:52.860 but if you have a forensics person come in and break down exactly what was found at that,

00:27:57.360 it just got screwed up how it was collected.

00:27:59.580 And then the defense did what they were supposed to do.

00:28:01.900 They created doubt in the jury's mind.

00:28:03.280 but you can some stuff like that if a forensics person comes in they break that down on like

00:28:08.200 this is what we found here and it's just getting better and better with uh like i forget what it's

00:28:13.820 called but now they can take your d there's something that's matching up your dna let's

00:28:18.540 just say they're clearing like a 30 year old case yeah because the dna is there uh from that original

00:28:25.340 collection before we even knew we were going to be able to test this kind of stuff and then now

00:28:29.680 they're going back and they can actually pull things and you know how you kind of like do that

00:28:33.920 uh like almost like a 23 and me or that genealogy thing they're doing that and they can narrow it

00:28:38.980 down to like almost that's it testing dna on cold cases use codis we know genetic genealogy

00:28:46.100 oh genetic genealogy there you go if codis has no match labs upload the profile to public databases

00:28:51.360 like ged match um which i'll tell you this out the gate you do ged match you're gonna find some

00:28:57.640 my family. I got that family too. I'm first, first generation, first generation for your degree.

00:29:04.680 A lot of empty diploma frames in our area. My dad dropped down to 10th grade. Did he? And he said

00:29:10.260 he stopped paying attention in the eighth. Oh, 10's good. Um, yeah. Oh yeah. Gee, that was a

00:29:16.380 popular pastime in our area. Um, so they just cleared one. I was, I was putting on training

00:29:20.840 somewhere and somebody was telling me how they just cleared this case. That's amazing. Um, and

00:29:24.680 And they did that, and they were able to use that family genealogy to narrow it down to,

00:29:30.220 oh, my goodness, this is one of the suspects that they interviewed.

00:29:32.700 And, oh, this is one.

00:29:33.940 Wow.

00:29:34.500 So, yeah.

00:29:34.900 So 30 years later, somebody's getting cuffs put on them.

00:29:37.020 Dang, let's do it.

00:29:38.860 I love that, dude.

00:29:39.920 Yeah.

00:29:40.280 I feel like you can feel the timeline of existence breathe a little deeper when justice is served.

00:29:44.920 Yeah.

00:29:45.480 Yeah.

00:29:45.920 I like that.

00:29:46.700 I like a little bit of justice.

00:29:47.780 And so how long is the whole overall training for the FBI?

00:29:51.980 FBI, it's somewhere around five months.

00:29:54.880 Sometimes it adds another month, but it's somewhere around five months.

00:29:57.820 And what percentage of people do they eliminate sort of along the way?

00:30:01.120 You know, well, it depends.

00:30:03.780 It's a case-by-case basis.

00:30:05.080 There was a time where I would go back and I would,

00:30:07.460 because I was a firearms instructor, tactical instructor,

00:30:09.980 undercover guy and all that stuff,

00:30:12.000 but I would be back at Quantico with my peers who were in those units,

00:30:15.580 and you'd look at the class and you'd be like, look at the last class,

00:30:18.180 and you'd see like half of them failed.

00:30:19.580 I'm like, what is going on?

00:30:20.860 it kind of ebbs and flows. I don't think half failure is normal, but I'm not there every day,

00:30:26.540 so I don't know. Got it. And when did your undercover work start? Did that start from the

00:30:31.540 FBI? No, it started at the sheriff's office. So once I made vice of narcotics investigator,

00:30:36.740 you have an opportunity to go to undercover techniques or technical surveillance. These

00:30:41.240 are classes that they were put on in Columbia, South Carolina at the Criminal Justice Academy.

00:30:46.180 And once you get certified in that, then they'd let you go work undercover. But

00:30:49.200 I mean, just picture me.

00:30:52.220 Now, number one, I don't want to mess up.

00:30:53.940 Number two, you're around a bunch of older guys and gals who are seasoned in street-level buys and all this stuff,

00:31:02.100 and I'm just trying to—you're going to have to show up.

00:31:04.800 It's not up to them to like me.

00:31:06.340 It's up to me to get them to like me, right?

00:31:07.920 Got it.

00:31:08.860 Yeah, you've got to ingratiate yourself for sure.

00:31:10.740 Yeah, and it's a tough crowd.

00:31:12.640 It usually is.

00:31:13.480 Military, law enforcement, we're pretty tough crowds.

00:31:16.720 So imagine me, number one, not wanting to screw up.

00:31:19.580 Number two, being scared to death.

00:31:21.580 And number three, thinking about them watching it

00:31:23.500 and not wanting to screw up in front of them, too.

00:31:25.740 Some of them like Gary Ward and some of those people, you know.

00:31:29.120 But, yeah.

00:31:31.340 I mean, the first Crack Rock I bought, I was probably 275 pounds

00:31:35.460 with low body fat, you know, just jacked.

00:31:39.220 And I'm like, I don't look like I smoke crack unless I just started.

00:31:44.140 I just started back, you know.

00:31:46.200 buy a cracker I can drive around for 15 minutes and come back and buy another one

00:31:50.100 I'm not the guy smoking it you know and so so something like that that's a real instance you

00:31:54.540 have to come back another one and would you have to seem cracked out when you came back around well

00:31:59.060 what I was told because I never smoked crack was that it would wear off in 15 minutes that's why

00:32:03.780 they didn't care if you came back and bought again so yeah but they were probably giving me

00:32:08.420 little slivers of soap or something who knows but once I did it the bug got me yeah like the

00:32:14.020 like the undercover bug i don't know what it was it's not lying it's not like you know i i used to

00:32:19.460 like it's the infiltration yeah i mean getting to know people but during the book process i can't

00:32:25.080 remember what i used to term it as but now i just realized i go holy crap i just love connecting

00:32:29.960 with people wow i don't care even if you even if i get called out at three in the morning

00:32:33.460 because i was considered a good interviewer so you know to either get information a confession

00:32:37.840 or you know flip them and maybe they work with us and i would go and uh i didn't mind getting 0.97

00:32:43.360 called out like that and and i love it the crazier the better i mean rich poor big tall smart dumb i 0.79

00:32:50.480 love it all did you guys have groups that would like like say you go on uh like you're get put 0.88

00:32:55.100 on an assignment is that what it's called basically yeah for undercover yeah um and they could be very

00:32:59.260 small or they could be bigger ones deeper deeper or shallow ones um do they do you go to like

00:33:04.380 wardrobe and stuff like that like do they have all of that like who creates your backstory how

00:33:08.640 does all that happen i say ultimately ultimately it's on you um and what i teach you what i what

00:33:14.420 i know right yeah you know you're gonna come out i i believe i did used to call the unit i'd go

00:33:19.120 when are you gonna call me for because i was big country even though i'm not big anymore but

00:33:22.940 they'd be like i'd call headquarters and i'd go when are you gonna let me do one of those wall

00:33:26.780 street jobs you know one of these big old tycoon jobs and they're like no and i'm like i can say

00:33:31.640 buy sell you know put a big hat on and have that boss hog long horn on the front of my car rolling

00:33:38.340 and they're like no and I go fine because it's my skill set my skill set leads me to backwoods

00:33:43.380 with meth heads and white supremacists and whatever else you know oh yeah dude those are

00:33:48.300 some of my neighbors probably um what what were some of those early spots that you got put into 0.83

00:33:53.360 um well early on at the sheriff's office it was the you know you gotta go buy a crack rock which

00:33:59.020 was terrifying to me and then it might be yeah because I never bought crack I'm pulling down

00:34:03.520 there man I barely cracked the window you know I was just like they go what you want because they

00:34:07.940 come up around the car.

00:34:08.700 He'll go, what you want?

00:34:09.400 I'm like, I want a 20, you know. 1.00

00:34:12.920 He's like, roll down the window, you idiot. 1.00

00:34:14.680 You know, I'm like, I'm sliding money through the. 1.00

00:34:17.760 You're like, let me Venmo you.

00:34:20.180 They didn't have no Venmo back then.

00:34:21.800 That'd have been good, though.

00:34:22.940 What's your cash at, bro?

00:34:24.220 You know, I'll send it to you right now.

00:34:27.080 Oh, dang, man.

00:34:28.700 That's pretty good.

00:34:29.580 And then type in, what's it for?

00:34:31.140 Drugs.

00:34:31.900 Yeah.

00:34:32.540 Crack.

00:34:34.420 Yeah, but that was the odd stuff there.

00:34:36.420 But I started cutting my teeth.

00:34:38.500 But when I got in the FBI, my first long term, I mean, I was doing some cameo stuff,

00:34:44.360 which a cameo is basically what it sounds like, like on a TV show.

00:34:47.020 You're there just to help somebody else, or it's a quick, it's not even a full-blown undercover operation.

00:34:52.340 It's just going to be one meet.

00:34:53.600 Give me an example of that.

00:34:54.920 Like a buy bust, or we're going to deliver.

00:34:58.440 L.A. takes off a huge load of dope.

00:35:00.600 It's supposed to be coming to New York.

00:35:02.040 So L.A. gets on the phone with FBI in New York.

00:35:04.100 We're like, okay, what does it look like?

00:35:05.560 we want measurements all this we would go build the exact same shipment and then we would deliver

00:35:10.960 it to where it was supposed to go so we can get the bad guys on that end no and that's just a

00:35:15.360 one time so i mean i'm in a truck with an nypd detective and we're just dirtied up and going to

00:35:20.160 deliver so in that way were you able to bust both ends of the of the yeah yeah what is the reason

00:35:25.640 that they would do it like that as opposed to just showing up at the actual meet because sometimes

00:35:30.320 you don't know if it's getting delivered to a fictitious address or where is it going to go

00:35:34.540 But we were delivering it, and it depends on the assistant United States attorney

00:35:39.640 because everybody's a little different.

00:35:41.360 So maybe this one says, this is all I need to charge them.

00:35:44.340 Somebody might be a little bit more thorough.

00:35:45.920 They go, no, I want to actually know that they opened the box.

00:35:48.960 Well, how can we do that?

00:35:49.980 Well, let's build something so when we walk away, it's not enough that they take possession.

00:35:54.420 We want to walk away and know that they popped the box before we hit it.

00:35:58.180 And how would you guys know that?

00:35:59.280 Would you guys put cameras in the box?

00:36:00.640 Oh, something.

00:36:01.320 Some tech guy is going to do something.

00:36:02.920 I mean, there's so much technology now.

00:36:04.320 I mean, I don't know what they can do.

00:36:05.500 Yeah.

00:36:05.740 But, of course, my people watch TV and think we can do stuff we can anyway.

00:36:08.560 Is that true?

00:36:09.640 Well, it's getting better.

00:36:12.220 I've seen some things since I retired.

00:36:13.840 I'm not going to say what they are because it's tradecraft,

00:36:15.520 but it really made me want to go back undercover just to use it for a recording device.

00:36:19.440 I was like, I cannot believe.

00:36:20.860 I'm like, you know.

00:36:21.800 Well, they just had those SUVs that they bought.

00:36:23.840 I think they had Israeli technology in them.

00:36:25.840 I don't know if you saw that.

00:36:26.600 There was these SUVs that allegedly can drive by an area and read your phone, basically.

00:36:33.160 Can you bring that up, Trevin?

00:36:34.260 It's probably like if you're on Bluetooth or Wi-Fi

00:36:36.520 and it's pulling stuff off of your phones.

00:36:39.880 Israel's Palantir rival is selling $1 million spy vans to U.S. cops.

00:36:44.280 Is this a recent story?

00:36:46.180 Because this was like three days ago.

00:36:47.780 Oh, yeah, this is good.

00:36:48.700 There we go.

00:36:49.560 Let me see.

00:36:50.340 Cognite, which sells technology to snoop on phone locations

00:36:53.680 largely in Israel and Europe,

00:36:54.840 is making inroads in America by tricking out trucks with spy tech.

00:36:58.740 Texas State Police's purchase of four brand-new Chevy Tahos

00:37:02.760 this march was unusual not just because of the staggering 4.5 million dollar price tag

00:37:08.340 but because the vehicles were kitted out with technology that could monitor the locations

00:37:14.260 of nearby cell phones made by Israeli surveillance company cognite the tech simulates a mobile phone

00:37:18.860 tower which forces nearby phones to connect to it that enables cops to keep tabs on any phones in

00:37:24.120 the vicinity whether they're owned by a suspect in a case or not huh you're gonna have some issues

00:37:29.980 there uh because i'm reading i'm listening to what you're reading but i'm telling you you've

00:37:35.600 got the fourth amendment protection so if i'm going to be able to track you at a minimum i'm

00:37:40.360 probably gonna have to get a court order a lot of places a lot of times now you have to get a

00:37:45.620 full-blown search warrant do you think though that maybe they're buying these in advance and they know

00:37:50.340 that the laws are going to change that could be but i can tell you right now if somebody's coming

00:37:54.340 by and pulling your stuff um and they're actually tracking you i mean like you can like if say if

00:38:00.400 you've got a scanner and you're riding through apartment complex back in the day you could pick

00:38:04.160 up different cell phones and stuff is that i mean is that a title three wiretap i mean if you're

00:38:10.140 using it for evidence it is but for us like that's a huge invasion of privacy for me everybody

00:38:17.240 listens to your phone a pen register trap and trace that's just going to let me track your phone

00:38:22.040 and maybe see where you are off of Towers.

00:38:24.620 I'll get to see phone numbers coming in and calling in and calling out

00:38:27.600 and texting and texting out, but I can't read.

00:38:30.060 Got it.

00:38:30.480 I can't read the content.

00:38:31.700 Got it.

00:38:32.040 If you start getting into that kind of stuff,

00:38:33.720 like if somebody puts a camera in your house, that's a Title III.

00:38:38.040 And it's not easy to get.

00:38:40.100 It's not TV.

00:38:40.940 It's not like, hey, I need to be on this phone in five minutes.

00:38:43.840 It's different.

00:38:44.620 Now, you can track a phone in an emergency,

00:38:48.440 uh or there are some it's maybe it's harder especially if you got a burner phone but um

00:38:54.620 there are things like if somebody's missing or it's a threat to life or maybe a cop goes down

00:39:00.980 and we're trying or somebody yeah we're trying to do that that's that's the we might be able to

00:39:05.520 expedite it a little bit but you're still going to get some type of order got it and now sometimes

00:39:09.800 it seems like

00:39:11.400 that police or FBI

00:39:14.160 they may use these tactics

00:39:16.000 for the moment

00:39:17.640 knowing that they're not

00:39:19.400 just to behoove them to advance

00:39:21.640 in whatever that moment is

00:39:23.260 to have strategy

00:39:24.180 knowing that it may not hold up in court later

00:39:26.700 well I wouldn't do that

00:39:28.180 really for me

00:39:30.300 but does it make sense what I'm saying

00:39:33.100 I know it does

00:39:34.040 the way I've always done it

00:39:36.980 do it now ask permission later

00:39:39.060 like that's for forgiveness right ask for forgiveness it seems like i could see that

00:39:42.880 being a part of maybe this strategy i don't know well that would be an on the spot kind of thing

00:39:48.260 but generally or for let's just say for the most part i would not i'm retired i'm not bonded right

00:39:56.020 now um but i wouldn't build a bad case or do something like that because that's a violation

00:40:03.600 but if there was a gray area if if this is just me personally speaking i'm not saying it's covered

00:40:12.420 it's not covered by policy but there have been horrific cases where girl young girl goes missing

00:40:19.440 uh i'm kicking myself for not remembering her name right now but she goes missing in florida

00:40:24.340 and everybody's looking for her so you go out and you start canvassing the neighborhood well you

00:40:28.200 might look and you can see hey man we've got like registered sex offenders right here where she went

00:40:32.500 missing well that's the first doors i'm knocking on sorry if that offends you but you're a registered

00:40:37.080 sex offender yeah and it's your trade yeah and and they're and and they uh after the fact they

00:40:44.440 found her she was dead she was buried alive with her with her stuffed animal but in the original

00:40:51.440 canvas they went and talked to the guy at the trailer that was holding her but they never got

00:40:56.340 in so me uh that i would i would violate i'm getting in there if you feel it yeah i'm getting

00:41:05.240 then if you don't have a problem you're not holding anything you mind if i walk in here and

00:41:09.180 look and if you say no well okay well we'll find a way to get in here right but i'm not leaving

00:41:14.980 yeah you know what i mean have you had instances like that where you had to trust your instincts

00:41:19.360 oh yeah yeah as a case agent well not even as an undercover but as an undercover you're in a

00:41:24.920 situation and you're you're basically playing chess you're trying to be five steps ahead of

00:41:29.620 them and they're thinking you're also like tennis like i'm serving it to you and i have no idea which

00:41:34.000 way you're hitting it back but i'm over here going you know i'm that goalie i don't know what you're

00:41:37.600 throwing but i'm trying to be ready um as a case agent out there trying to um call a shot call

00:41:44.580 call shots right there on the spot you know um i had a case uh in mccallan texas where i was at

00:41:52.740 for six and a half years and what it was is that the the they were undocumented aliens being

00:42:00.340 smuggled in we get the call because the undocumented family is already in virginia

00:42:05.760 they had paid for two sisters and a daughter to come through and what happened is the smuggling 0.92

00:42:12.880 organization got them across the river so you get them across the river at least in rio grande

00:42:17.380 valley you get them across the river and then they're usually at a staging location a house

00:42:20.920 or something because now they've got to get picked up by a coyote a walker and they're going to be

00:42:25.760 handed off and now they're going to be walked through the brush around the checkpoints to

00:42:28.760 where they'll be picked up and then carried to wherever um where this one happened was one of

00:42:33.560 the sisters was physically and mentally challenged and they left her in the brush to dry to die they

00:42:38.240 left her in the brush to die and border patrol found her she was 16 but they couldn't figure out

00:42:45.360 a lot so they called child protective services they came over and were able to figure out

00:42:50.360 you've got family they actually figured out the the other family was in virginia and they were

00:42:55.920 now being extorted they got them across the river got them into a house and now they're calling

00:43:00.220 saying hey we already dumped one of your sisters your five-year-old daughter's sick and we're not

00:43:05.140 getting her anything to make her better unless you pay us more money so they're extorting them 0.89

00:43:09.800 even though they paid and in my mind i think that's truly a victim even though undocumented

00:43:14.180 alien is it's an illegal charge but i'm not working undocumented alien i'm working kidnapping

00:43:19.980 in extortion well yeah especially if i mean i think there's a moral code inside of a lot of us

00:43:24.680 yeah where you have to decide what's going on yeah you know and and sometimes you can't even

00:43:29.420 decide it's just a built-in thing you're like this is how i'm gonna operate in this space right it's

00:43:33.460 a very human thing yeah so in that case particularly we're probably running for three four days

00:43:38.420 non-stop because we're trying to find this phone that they're calling on that the bad guys are

00:43:43.940 using to call the family i've already hit fbi up in virginia and say hey can you go over and give

00:43:49.660 them recording devices all that all the stuff they need and uh it was a honduran family and

00:43:55.380 about that third day we're out and all we know is that the phone like i said just location stuff

00:44:02.460 it's not i'm not giving away right you're not getting text messages you're just getting some

00:44:05.360 location tags but it's not it's not like it's always it's not always pinpoint you know it's

00:44:10.180 not like hey that's it moving right there 10 feet away that's right not at least when i was working

00:44:14.500 it then and we know pretty much that the phone is somewhere in the store and they're like hey

00:44:20.940 it's moving and then at the same time four different people come out and they're all

00:44:26.140 walking into cars and we've been up for three days straight and we're all most of us are parents

00:44:31.260 which doesn't matter if you're a parent or not you're still going to be like but you're getting

00:44:35.620 personally involved in this case because it's a five-year-old girl and uh I had to make the call

00:44:41.340 they're like what are you because i was leading it and they're like which one and i'm like look

00:44:44.640 i'm going oh son of a i'm going okay here we are here we are here yeah it's like the mass singer

00:44:49.260 or whatever yeah i'm like come on lord and i'm like hit me and then i'm like let's go with that

00:44:53.660 one and we follow it away and get to a point to where that one stops and uh then we were able to

00:44:59.660 say yep the phone moved and it's somewhere close to there so then we go in and hit the house but

00:45:03.920 the house didn't have the undocumented people in it it had it had the guy had the ledgers had all 0.82

00:45:09.720 the names of course the phone was in there they were trying to flood they were trying to flush 0.67

00:45:13.120 stuff and everything we get in there and uh cut the phones on and i call the bad guy phone and

00:45:18.160 it rings and i go it's you so we're doing a long interrogation and luckily the guy broke and took

00:45:26.040 us to the stash house and we recovered the girl and her sister yeah amen and of course we're all

00:45:31.140 crying like all the all the grown men my friend who's the female board patrol agent she's like

00:45:36.060 She's like, all of us are like, you know,

00:45:39.100 because we put the young girl on the phone with her Honduran mother,

00:45:41.420 and she's like, Mommy, and, you know,

00:45:42.620 and she still had her schoolgirl outfit on.

00:45:44.180 And, man, they went to dry. 0.65

00:45:45.400 They went to dry.

00:45:47.560 Dang.

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00:48:54.760 What's those interrogations like?

00:48:56.620 Do they get pretty intense sometimes?

00:48:57.860 It can.

00:48:58.980 Yeah, that one did.

00:49:01.860 Because, I mean, you know, it's like.

00:49:04.060 It's life or death.

00:49:05.260 Yeah, but think about it.

00:49:07.040 Say you're, I'm like, I've interviewed, not that case,

00:49:10.100 but you're interviewing somebody that his nickname is El Ocho.

00:49:13.140 It's because the cartel's already cut two of his fingers off.

00:49:15.960 They've been tortured.

00:49:17.000 They've been all this.

00:49:18.160 Me yelling at them?

00:49:19.440 How am I going to work this to where I can get something out of you?

00:49:23.040 i can't i can't chop your fingers off right we have a constitution yeah that would be frowned

00:49:29.400 upon yeah maybe yeah yeah i mean yeah i mean you gotta you've hoped to play by the rules yeah

00:49:35.720 did you see some pretty severe stuff that came across the board like how how intense is some of

00:49:41.000 those scenarios and stuff down there like you hear so much about the cartels and like the level of

00:49:45.800 violence that's like um almost something that we can't even maybe fathom sometimes a lot of people

00:49:50.900 don't um they value life a little differently i'm not saying hispanics because i'm somebody's

00:49:59.120 gonna say oh you're saying all hispanic i'm not i love i mean i got tons of latino friends and

00:50:04.200 uh but the cartel at the time i was down there oziel cardenas was running it um which once

00:50:11.620 department of justice took him off it actually created a vacuum because now everybody's like

00:50:16.320 who's going to run the gulf cartel and then you got the enforcers the safeties that are saying

00:50:20.400 And you know what?

00:50:21.300 We're the ones that kidnap everybody and torture them.

00:50:23.220 We're going to run it.

00:50:23.880 And then you got maybe the government saying they're going to do it.

00:50:26.560 And then Senyoloa cartel comes in and says, we're taking over.

00:50:29.160 And then you just end up with a bunch of heads and bags and vans.

00:50:32.400 Really?

00:50:32.940 Yeah.

00:50:33.400 I mean, it's, you would.

00:50:34.600 Is that a real thing?

00:50:35.320 Heads and bags and vans?

00:50:36.400 Yeah.

00:50:36.880 Yeah.

00:50:37.140 I mean, if you like, it was getting bad enough to where, this was shortly after I left,

00:50:41.780 but it was getting bad enough to where, because everybody's vying for the territory.

00:50:45.380 if you're in a territory and you have a decent vehicle like it looks like you've got some kind

00:50:51.040 of money because there's really not a lot of middle class you're either low or high and you're

00:50:55.520 going through the wrong territory neighborhood whatever and and maybe it's the safety that's

00:50:59.700 going well you're not one of us are you one of the sinaloa cartel and they pull it over and i mean

00:51:04.840 yeah and there's there's been innocent bystanders lost you know because they didn't know any better

00:51:09.900 and you know. Man, I almost invested in a damn zoo down there in Sinaloa with a buddy of mine. 0.97

00:51:16.460 We almost bought into a zoo down there. Well, I mean, I've never been to Sinaloa, so there's 0.99

00:51:21.020 probably like a lot of places that are outside the United States. There's going to be, well,

00:51:24.960 it's just like in the United States. There's going to be good and bad. Yeah. Oh yeah. My

00:51:28.160 friend Andrew just went fishing down there and he said he had one of the best experiences of

00:51:31.120 his whole life. Some of the greatest fishing he's ever done. Yeah. Um, what, what's, what

00:51:35.480 smuggling did you see? Did you see any human trafficking? We hear about, we hear about that

00:51:39.760 terms so much what did you see so when i got there i was working drugs obviously on the border but 0.99

00:51:46.480 you got every federal agency there legacy ice dea atf us fbi dtf if there's some hotties

00:51:54.340 yeah i saw all kinds of stuff when i got down there i was working drugs at first

00:52:01.280 um i mean it could be 50 kilos of cocaine and a tire oh you see that much what's the most you

00:52:07.240 ever saw man uh i personally probably get into that 100 kilo mark how much is that show me with

00:52:15.160 your hands well a kilo is 2.2 pounds so 100 of those wow i saw two eight balls once i know

00:52:22.060 way bigger than that indestine it was indestine yeah two eight balls i used to buy them five at

00:52:27.500 a time undercover undercover undercover yeah all the time yeah but you get deeper and you get into

00:52:34.220 more serious now you're getting up to like ounces you're getting up to kilo buys and

00:52:37.820 so you'd see real that much cocaine you saw real yeah real cocaine yeah yeah but that's

00:52:43.600 hard was it hard not to smile when you saw it no you smile after the takedown and then you get your

00:52:49.200 you get the get the photo you go up there and do your uh trophy shot you know but but that's

00:52:55.780 nothing just picture if you were working in miami and then like i'm saying where i worked man 100

00:53:00.220 kilos or you but you go down the border well man you can trip over 500 pounds just riding up and

00:53:05.280 down the river yeah um because it's so porous and stuff but the biggest weed seizure i got was

00:53:12.200 5 000 pounds wow we literally filled up two trucks i mean my truck was loaded i was sitting in the

00:53:19.100 seat like this just but i couldn't even it was just packed and we've loaded another truck that's

00:53:23.660 it was a lot did you even get a buzz driving with it because you smell it was it that strong of a

00:53:27.140 Yeah, well, yeah, it's strong, yeah.

00:53:28.380 Yeah.

00:53:28.740 Yeah, but...

00:53:30.080 Dude, one time me and my friend Billy Conforto, RIP,

00:53:33.380 and he was one of the first gay male prize fighters in America,

00:53:38.660 but we got taken out of a car.

00:53:42.040 We had some weed on us, some pounds of weed. 1.00

00:53:44.200 The cops pulled us over like, shit. 0.99

00:53:45.760 So we put it in our front, like in our pants, 0.99

00:53:48.400 and the cop was like, I'm going to sit y'all in the cruiser

00:53:50.840 while I search the vehicle.

00:53:52.120 So he sat us in there, and we just had it.

00:53:53.980 Was it reeking, though?

00:53:54.920 Huh?

00:53:55.300 Did you smell it?

00:53:56.180 I don't know why he thought that, but it was like, well, he just put us in there.

00:54:00.460 We had it in our – so now we're sitting with it in the cruiser.

00:54:03.320 He searched the car and then just said, okay, nothing to see there.

00:54:06.480 Put you guys back in it.

00:54:07.480 You guys take it easy.

00:54:08.340 There you go.

00:54:08.880 So I don't know what made him think it.

00:54:10.340 Maybe he did smell it originally.

00:54:11.940 You lived to fight another day.

00:54:13.280 We got lucky that day.

00:54:14.180 Yeah, you lived to fight another day.

00:54:15.620 And we didn't do too much.

00:54:16.720 You know, we weren't doing anything real heavy over there. 1.00

00:54:18.860 And I think back then, if you were gay, you had to be high to even just get through it. 0.99

00:54:22.220 It was just a different time. 1.00

00:54:23.120 Yeah.

00:54:23.460 If you're prize fighting, too.

00:54:24.960 Yeah.

00:54:25.160 you know but um anyway what were you talking about so so i've seen a lot of the dope stuff

00:54:30.200 but just picture if you're in miami like i just told you 100 kilos and you think that's a lot

00:54:35.300 well what if you bust up in the hole of a ship and you've got 2 000 kilos i mean you see that

00:54:41.380 stuff and i'm like i've never seen 2 000 but i've seen i've seen some big stacks does it get

00:54:46.040 competitive to be on a big bus yeah sure friendly competition or uh i call it friendly uh you know

00:54:53.880 DEA versus FBI, yeah, we always bust chops, and you're working cases together.

00:54:59.760 But then I switched to alien smuggling because at that point in time in McAllen,

00:55:05.940 well, I guess in the Bureau, it was becoming a serious topic

00:55:10.080 to look at special interest alien smuggling.

00:55:12.760 And it's not just, you're not saying, hey, I'm looking for the normal human trafficking.

00:55:19.780 We are looking for people being smuggled in from threat countries. 0.57

00:55:23.880 so like your threat countries russia china um and why would they be being smuggled in like what is

00:55:29.860 well that's what we're trying to figure out got it so you are they up to bat are they up are they

00:55:34.000 going to come in here with nefarious plans or are they legitimately trying to get out of where

00:55:38.060 they're at is it better at life got it it's it's interesting to me that like that that would be

00:55:44.480 kind of an assignment for you guys right or like that would come down as part of the uh detail 0.68

00:55:50.280 But then at the same time, you would have the government that would like lackadaisically, it would seem, allow people to come into the country. 0.60

00:55:58.460 Right. 0.94

00:55:58.900 Like it seems like they're trying to play both sides of the scale there.

00:56:02.360 Yeah, I don't like it.

00:56:03.060 Did it ever feel to you like the government was starting some of the problems that you guys were then being hired to go and solve?

00:56:13.540 Well, ATF's fast and furious.

00:56:15.480 That would be a yes.

00:56:17.660 I mean, you know, there's plenty of document.

00:56:19.520 documentaries out there and some good books uh oh is that i'm not even familiar with that fast

00:56:24.740 and furious that's when the movie no no no no no that was their operation fast and furious

00:56:29.300 where they were it was it was alleged that they were allowing guns to go to the cartel

00:56:37.480 and then those guns would show back up yeah those guns would show back up

00:56:42.140 and one of those guns killed a border patrol agent wow but you're smuggling so look at it like this

00:56:48.160 And I'm not trying to bash anybody.

00:56:50.020 No, it doesn't seem like it.

00:56:50.900 I'm asking you.

00:56:51.760 Everybody's got, every agency has their black eyes.

00:56:55.120 But just look at it this way.

00:56:57.480 If I released a kilo of cocaine into the streets and it came from me, an FBI agent,

00:57:04.320 anybody gets sick, hurt, killed over that, that's my fault.

00:57:08.800 That's a liability.

00:57:09.880 So I'm looking at it the same way with fully automatic weapons and stuff.

00:57:13.280 Yeah.

00:57:13.820 I just know that, I know as a case agent, working what I've worked,

00:57:17.140 how hard it is to get approvals for anything close to that.

00:57:20.680 So I was a little dumbfounded at how the heck that happened.

00:57:25.620 Let me just so our listeners know about it.

00:57:27.720 Operation Fast and Furious, a controversial 2009 and 2011 Bureau of Alcohol,

00:57:33.560 Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives sting operation,

00:57:36.160 used a gun-walking tactic letting illicit firearms pass to Mexican cartels

00:57:40.440 to track high-level leaders, which failed when tracked weapons were lost

00:57:44.120 and used in violent crimes.

00:57:45.520 Wow.

00:57:45.720 So they let them through to be able to kind of maybe, I guess they would tag them or find some way to follow them so they could know who these people were that were getting them the high levels.

00:57:54.380 But then those were used to kill our own people.

00:57:57.160 Led by the Phoenix, Arizona field office under Project Gunrunner, allowed straw buyers to illegally purchase thousands of weapons with the intent to trace them to major cartel leaders.

00:58:08.480 Agents were ordered not to interdict or seize weapons during purchases, losing track of roughly 2,000 firearms.

00:58:14.360 they were exposed after the border patrol agent brian terry was killed in 2010 by rifles tied to

00:58:20.880 the operation resulted in attorney general eric holder being held in contempt of congress in 2012

00:58:26.900 for withholding documents through a department of justice report cleared though a department

00:58:31.520 of justice report cleared him of direct knowledge of the tactic so was this this was happening while

00:58:36.100 you were working yeah and did that scare you i'm probably going to get a lot of hate from atf i'm

00:58:41.180 sorry about that i love atf i got a lot of friends at atf well i have a lot of friends that do a lot

00:58:45.880 of things and it doesn't mean that their bosses or the people above them may not be having some

00:58:50.240 separate interests at times right and and the fbi we're an easy target too they can they can

00:58:56.700 they can name plenty of things that that organization's done too but yeah i'm just

00:59:01.360 thinking off the top of my head like um and you know you got to be careful because like let me

00:59:06.320 use an example like i'm a vice and narcotics investigator so in greenville south carolina

00:59:10.480 at the time I was there,

00:59:11.440 it was illegal to gamble.

00:59:12.900 So maybe we identify

00:59:14.700 three major gambling operations.

00:59:16.780 Well, maybe we pop one of the ones

00:59:18.320 or go and interview them

00:59:19.940 and flip them,

00:59:20.800 but the head of that one

00:59:21.840 is now giving us information

00:59:23.020 on the other two

00:59:23.740 and we're working the other two.

00:59:25.180 But you don't want 0.99

00:59:25.920 a Whitey Bulger situation 1.00

00:59:27.120 where you're letting your source 0.88

00:59:28.920 go and wreak havoc for free.

00:59:31.300 It's always a,

00:59:32.580 you know what I mean?

00:59:33.360 It's a balance.

00:59:34.620 Yeah, and that's why

00:59:35.840 when we do stuff like that,

00:59:37.360 if you're providing information

00:59:38.800 and we let you know

00:59:39.600 what you can and can't do and i've told many many sources that i've had for 28 years of career um

00:59:46.120 i'll be like look if you do this i cannot take up for you at all but if you call me before it

00:59:50.200 happens i can take up you know what i mean it's kind of that thing understood oh wow yeah are

00:59:54.980 there so when dealing with informants this has got to be pretty fascinating so you dealt with

00:59:59.060 a lot of informants a bunch for me operating an informant for me is a lot like undercover and they

01:00:06.060 they mesh because when i'm an undercover i'm essentially being a source for another fbi agent

01:00:11.260 it's just that i'm not a criminal i don't have a felon on my record i'm actually a bonded law

01:00:16.940 enforcement officer but i'm still going in and getting the information i'm still getting the

01:00:21.060 recorded stuff i'm still that person so for me when i'm dealing with sources i go you're doing

01:00:26.080 what i do on other cases but i'm asking you to do it for me first of all what what people in like

01:00:31.800 towns and regular towns in america are actually end up being like informants or narcs or whatever

01:00:36.220 because dude when i was in school you always hear like ricky's a narc or whatever you know

01:00:40.060 yeah dude bro ricky it would be like one kid like wore the wrong pe outfit and like that guy's a 0.96

01:00:46.380 fucking narc you know like narc was the biggest thing bro and people were and sometimes that 0.95

01:00:51.700 you'd even find somebody snitch yeah snitch who got a little card from like the local police 1.00

01:00:56.480 department that said they were helping them and stuff like every now and then they had like this 0.97

01:01:00.760 like i don't think it was laminated bro that bitch got wet and it didn't exist yeah um but 0.95

01:01:06.080 what types of people like in towns are actually are the first types of people you would get as 0.91

01:01:12.020 informants for for certain things or is that not even a real thing like or like at a high school

01:01:17.340 i'm just trying to think where like i would say it depends on what violation you're working okay

01:01:22.060 if i'm working gangs and i'm working transnational organized crime which is what i worked for a long

01:01:27.940 time well then maybe i'm gonna try to find and develop a source that can give me information on

01:01:33.760 this like this car this whatever this this group that's been bringing in drugs that we've heard

01:01:38.340 about or what if it's multiple robberies we're trying to find somebody that knows something

01:01:41.880 about have you heard any scatter i mean any scuttlebutt maybe you maybe you talk to ladies

01:01:47.980 of the night some prostitutes escorts and say hey if you know you know things like that but 0.92

01:01:53.160 you can also be a highfalutin case. I'm saying highfalutin because look at me. I'm not highfalutin. 0.53

01:01:59.380 But it could be like an espionage case. It could be like a white collar case. And maybe,

01:02:05.100 maybe the sources for those are very upstanding members of society. And you can go talk to them

01:02:10.180 and say, hey, I was wondering if you could give me some information. They'd be like, I would love

01:02:13.460 to give you some information. Me, I'm talking, when I say developing sources, when I was working,

01:02:18.120 I'm like, I'm talking about going to somebody that you may never would hang out with, that you may think is a piece of trash or not, but those people have never liked law enforcement.

01:02:29.240 And I'm talking to that person, and after our conversation, I've heard things, you hear things like, man, for a cop, you know, for a cop, you're not that bad. 0.62

01:02:38.360 Or, I didn't know there were cops like you.

01:02:40.300 So you just, it's on you, but yeah, I mean, that's the way I would do it.

01:02:44.600 And I do think it goes hand in hand.

01:02:46.000 but being if if you don't know in my opinion if you don't know how to develop and operate sources

01:02:52.540 um i don't think you're probably going to be an awesome undercover

01:02:56.180 did you ever have to pick like uh disguises or was there like a war like yeah did somebody help

01:03:02.020 like fit you for a scene did they give you a photo or like a look book like hey here's what

01:03:07.220 you can wear and not wear were there like was there ever a thing where you couldn't wear a

01:03:11.080 certain patch like if it was like a a certain gang affiliation of course like how did you manage that

01:03:16.640 take me into a little bit of that it really comes down to the intelligence of the case team that's

01:03:20.480 bringing you in hopefully they've done their due diligence and as an undercover you can ask those

01:03:25.940 questions now is there a wardrobe department no but do we have things in the undercover program

01:03:31.560 where maybe you could get some jewelry and stuff like that yeah we've got that but as far as like

01:03:36.440 wearing the wrong patch or not that's going to be again ultimately it's on me as the undercover

01:03:41.680 um like if i if i well but if if i want to know

01:03:45.880 if i if i want to know like if i ask for a weapon that doesn't come back to law enforcement

01:03:52.100 well i shouldn't just take their word for it i probably need to run that number in ncic to make

01:03:57.040 sure it doesn't come back to fbi quantico because i've been on cases that that happened like what

01:04:01.240 does that mean like it means like it so you got serial numbers on your weapons if they check that

01:04:05.700 an NCIC it's going to come back to something right well sometimes bad people have contacts

01:04:09.980 that can run that kind of stuff whether it's through corruption or whatever oh I see so if

01:04:13.720 your weapon has your number on it and they see that and they run it and it says oh this is a

01:04:17.960 Glock 22 uh FBI Quantico right and that's so I was undercover and I had requested a fully

01:04:24.840 covert weapon whatever it's supposed to be working with ATF and everything and and I was probably

01:04:30.780 six months in to the undercover and somehow i was on the call with quantico and uh asking how

01:04:38.920 we get the way it was it's it's drawn out but basically uh the guy's like whoa at that point

01:04:44.600 in time he goes we really don't have any covert weapon i was i looked i said go run this weapon

01:04:48.880 right now to the trainee and they ran it it said fbi quantico and i'm like i'm like bro i mean i

01:04:55.440 could have just carried my normal weapon yeah that goes back to quantico too but it really is on you

01:05:00.260 But for me, I'll tell you what I have done.

01:05:04.240 If I go in and I meet a source, I'll ask them.

01:05:07.620 Like sometimes my beard's this long and I'm long hair,

01:05:10.440 which is getting less and less now.

01:05:13.220 I'm going to be thinning out here even more soon.

01:05:17.080 Looks healthy, man.

01:05:18.160 But the thing is they'll go, I'll ask them, hey, I was on an undercover.

01:05:24.860 Meet the person.

01:05:25.660 We talk for hours.

01:05:26.800 I'll come back and meet them again because I'm trying to figure out, hey,

01:05:28.980 am I the right fit?

01:05:29.860 is this going to work because we're going to be basically undercover yeah we're basically going

01:05:34.520 to be undercover together and i'll say does this work and they would look and go nah man that's

01:05:39.000 too dirty we're rednecks but we're clean cut rednecks and i said well what do you do i said

01:05:43.120 how about like a nice goatee because i get a normal haircut they're like yeah that'd be perfect

01:05:46.540 man button-up shirt untucked i'm like cool now i'm just doing that so i don't look like a like

01:05:52.640 way out of place i want to look i'm mirroring them got it um but for me i always stuck really

01:05:59.240 close to who I was. I was always Scott, different last name, but I may or may not have played

01:06:04.620 football in college. I may or may not be a musician and a singer, may or may not be married

01:06:09.040 with kids for your degree, but you can bet most likely I ride motorcycles and I lift weights.

01:06:15.040 Got it. And then you just kind of go from there because my jokes are literally the same. I'm just

01:06:19.820 twisting them because it's real to me. I tell the true story. Have you ever been in an instance

01:06:26.780 where you weren't even the best choice for the role, but you ended up in it?

01:06:30.580 Yeah, absolutely.

01:06:32.460 I mean, you can word it a right case, wrong undercover, right undercover, wrong case.

01:06:38.180 But I had a buddy of mine, and he was running.

01:06:40.740 He's an undercover as well, but he was the case agent. 0.75

01:06:42.900 And he was running this undercover on like a dirty doctor selling pills 0.98

01:06:47.460 or giving pills for sex and stuff like that. 0.98

01:06:49.800 The idea was, because of my background, to come in and be the closer

01:06:54.400 to get this doctor on drug trafficking, right?

01:06:57.080 Got it.

01:06:57.420 And I came in, and I basically said I'm a competitive power lifter,

01:07:01.440 but I'm getting older, bills are getting tight,

01:07:03.780 and I need something for the pain kind of thing.

01:07:05.380 I was trying to do that because they had already had a bunch of reporting

01:07:08.120 of, like, this doctor, like, you know, a woman goes in for a visit.

01:07:13.680 He prescribes her a bunch of pills or whatever.

01:07:16.540 She leaves, and there's a used condom in the trash can.

01:07:19.240 Got it.

01:07:19.620 And you're like, okay, all right.

01:07:21.240 And then maybe somebody reports, hey, this doctor tried to do this to me

01:07:24.180 or something like that so now i'm coming in as a new patient and i knew a lot of the pill mill

01:07:29.080 stuff because i was working it as a case agent as well um but um yeah i was just the wrong guy

01:07:35.080 like i did the first meet and then the second time i came back he starts telling me well you know

01:07:39.980 scott sometimes people come in here and they get these and they go sell them on the street and i

01:07:44.320 was like i never said i was going to do that i said i'm in pain man he's like what and i i left

01:07:50.200 the meeting that day and I went to

01:07:52.360 hand over the recording to the case agent

01:07:54.220 who was my friend and I told him I said

01:07:56.180 I'm not the right guy man you don't need me

01:07:58.280 to send me back in there I said

01:07:59.980 I don't know what it is but he does not like me

01:08:02.060 it just wouldn't fit can you feel when

01:08:04.200 something doesn't fit yeah

01:08:05.300 because if you

01:08:06.680 yeah you can feel it especially if you're trying

01:08:10.260 to force it you know and I tried a little

01:08:12.340 bit that day with that guy but he was not

01:08:14.120 something about me I don't know whether he thought

01:08:16.260 I was a snitch or a fed or something

01:08:18.020 or something but he didn't maybe he

01:08:20.020 didn't feel he could control me um but I was not the right guy for the job what are some things

01:08:25.400 isn't it undercover just like general rule of thumb that you don't want to do it's like do you

01:08:28.840 not want to talk much like is there like you know are I guess is it case by case basis I guess yeah

01:08:34.580 I mean it depends on I mean there's actually attorney general guidelines on what we can and

01:08:37.860 can't do like we can't be involved in an act of violence unless it's self-defense um you can't

01:08:43.420 like instigate the crime you know because i'd be entrapment you know i mean um instigate and run

01:08:50.680 the crime and then all of a sudden now you're under arrest you know have there ever been

01:08:54.920 romantic things that happen along the way where it's like there's almost temptation for that like 0.79

01:08:58.420 where you met somebody you're like well shit i'm spending half my days in this environment you know 0.61

01:09:02.540 uh i've been in situations where yeah uh but that's you don't do that you don't do that i've 0.97

01:09:11.460 seen other things where you know maybe people fall in love it's just think about it like this if

01:09:16.260 you've got my luck and i'm doing a deep undercover and i'm at this bar and you start hitting on me

01:09:22.660 and i actually was a single man and and and we end up hooking up and dating my luck that's going to

01:09:29.780 end up being the target sister or something you know what i mean is that frowned upon can you

01:09:34.340 legally do that though no it'd be a policy violation okay got it yeah it'd be it'd be a

01:09:38.980 a policy violation now maybe in like if you go super i spy i don't know you know i don't know

01:09:44.300 all the cia's rules i don't know mi5 and mi6's rules but yeah that would be it would just be a

01:09:51.060 bad foundation period even if that person ended up not being um i'd rather you i'd rather you bring

01:09:57.540 in your real wife who isn't also an undercover fbi agent yeah then y'all just be you you know

01:10:04.000 if you got that do you think that most of us interact with undercover

01:10:09.520 officers or agents within our lives without even realizing it i wouldn't say that because literally

01:10:17.560 like in the biker world they call it like you got the one percenter biker clubs they say that if

01:10:22.380 you're an undercover um in in law enforcement you're a one percenter because there's like one

01:10:27.160 percent of law enforcement that does undercover work i see so you don't think most of us have

01:10:31.340 interacted probably with an undercover agent without realizing it you might have based on

01:10:34.840 some of your history oh yeah you know i mean depending on where i'm at i might have but

01:10:39.240 yeah i'm surprised we haven't met i know right but if i was at the uh if i was at the oak ridge

01:10:44.660 laboratory no i'm probably not running into an undercover i don't think yeah i don't know maybe

01:10:49.180 you could be if you're trying to sell you know uh uh classified material then yeah but i wouldn't

01:10:56.440 i wouldn't i don't walk around like that yeah i don't but it's not that common that most of us

01:11:01.020 just regular people have interacted with the undercover agent in our lives you don't think

01:11:04.560 so i don't think so got it what i don't think paranoid either there are some people like what

01:11:08.520 if everybody in this room is an intelligence officer i'm like what if they are right they're

01:11:13.120 trying to get information i'm trying to get information buy me a drink yeah you know pay

01:11:17.420 for this steak um yeah what is a one percenter you hear about that term a lot and that's a gang

01:11:23.620 motorcycle clubs if you are considered a one percenter motorcycle club let's see after vietnam

01:11:28.600 war um and everybody should well i don't know about these days who knows if they know about

01:11:34.220 vietnam war but you they would come in uh soldiers were coming back and they weren't treated very

01:11:39.940 well and there was no kind of a transition thing you know or decompression um and a lot of the

01:11:47.300 motorcycle clubs um i mean they started back in world war ii and stuff like that but a lot of

01:11:51.680 These motorcycle clubs were forming, and they were doing some, you know, rowdy stuff.

01:11:57.580 So the president of the American Motorcycle Association, I think is what it was called,

01:12:04.600 comes out and does this media blitz to say, hey, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good law-abiding citizens.

01:12:12.560 So they took that as a badge of honor and said, well, then we're the 1%.

01:12:16.400 We're 1%ers, and it's a patch on there.

01:12:20.100 On there, yeah. 0.83

01:12:21.360 So you see one percenter, you're going to see the big ones,

01:12:24.160 Hells Angels, Outlaws, Mongols, Pagans.

01:12:26.720 So they like to be the, well, we're not the one.

01:12:29.360 We're the non-law about it.

01:12:31.380 We're doing our own thing.

01:12:32.320 I like that.

01:12:33.220 So am I saying, yeah, that's the patch right there.

01:12:36.000 Everybody always asks, you know, they're like, well,

01:12:38.180 are you saying all one percenter biker clubs are criminals? 0.98

01:12:40.960 I go, no, but it kind of goes with being a one percenter. 0.52

01:12:44.580 I mean, you know what I mean?

01:12:45.480 Yeah, if you're not.

01:12:46.480 I mean, I'm not saying that means you've got to go break the law,

01:12:49.100 but you're definitely not.

01:12:50.180 it's just saying you got an edge yeah you don't care about the law basically yeah you like a or

01:12:55.160 you like to you got some of your own laws as well yeah yeah that's what i think one percenter

01:13:00.380 man this is it's all interesting because some of these terms i've heard before and it's nice to

01:13:04.180 just kind of get to like hear them in the use of the world that they're from yes take me into uh

01:13:10.620 your experience with the outlaws right that's a biker gang you were involved with where you went

01:13:14.560 undercover yes uh that was the longest one i did two years okay i've i've done like if i look back

01:13:20.840 at my career i could be like yeah there was a year and a half case that was a year and a half case

01:13:23.660 you go where the case takes you a lot of times uh or the case ends because something happened

01:13:29.000 they're like we're not doing this like something like somebody got hurt or something but uh for

01:13:34.640 the outlaws um i was already a certified undercover um i'd already done uh i'd already

01:13:42.020 done several undercovers in the bureau, but I had all the state and local experience too. And

01:13:47.820 I was already role-playing and helping at the undercover school that we have.

01:13:53.660 And this is in South Carolina?

01:13:55.460 No, no, no, no. By the time I was doing that, I was living in McAllen, Texas.

01:13:59.260 Okay, got it.

01:13:59.680 Yeah. So when I got hired out of the FBI, or I got hired out of South Carolina for the FBI,

01:14:06.180 when I came out of Quantico, my first office was in New York City, which goes back to the

01:14:10.020 sergeant which is funny because i did not pick it as number one it was like 36 out of 56 so when i

01:14:15.260 went back for my pick up my clothes and have the after have the going away party for scott i went

01:14:20.140 up to him i go dude you jinx me man i'm like i got new york city what is wrong um but i was

01:14:26.120 actually assigned to new york when 9-11 happened but the day of i was undercover i was in texas but

01:14:31.180 so now i'm moved down to texas i'm in mccallum i'm a case agent so i'm still doing that stuff

01:14:36.100 firearms okay okay so you're down in mccallan yeah and then as a certified undercover i can't

01:14:42.580 remember if if they canvassed through an email or did i get a phone call from somebody because

01:14:47.060 once you start going back and role playing and teaching at the undercover school i mean the best

01:14:52.400 way to describe it is let's just say well it scared me man well something bit me my phone

01:14:57.060 vibrated so i i get a call um because you're starting to get known if you're role playing

01:15:03.620 at the school and well what do you mean at the school so there's an undercover school to get

01:15:08.300 certified just like just like to become an fbi agent i mean it's not five months it's only one

01:15:12.560 so there's an undercover school yeah an academy two two weeks yeah and you learn how to be

01:15:17.780 undercover well you got to pass okay it's not so much that you're learning it's just that you're

01:15:22.040 learning techniques and stuff but jed you got to pass and what are some of the techniques you

01:15:25.380 learned there sorry that i i didn't i didn't grasp onto this before like is it almost acting

01:15:29.760 teachers that are there teaching no no so i won't give away everything for the school but i'll give

01:15:35.660 away what's kind of out there um the fbi undercover school is considered one of the toughest

01:15:39.960 certification schools the fbi puts on some say it is the toughest i'll say hrt is the toughest

01:15:45.280 because hrt is tier one swat on steroids uh is two weeks as well for the trial what does it mean

01:15:53.120 hrt uh hostage rescue team okay so you can be swat in all your divisions like i was swat and

01:15:59.600 in McAllen, San Antonio Division.

01:16:01.480 I was SWAT in Knoxville.

01:16:03.900 But HRT is at Quantico, based out of Quantico.

01:16:07.140 Hell yeah.

01:16:07.640 Hostage Rescue Team.

01:16:08.660 And I mean, they're hot too.

01:16:09.420 They train with the Tier 1 teams.

01:16:10.760 It's high speed.

01:16:11.680 I'm a high speed.

01:16:12.360 You know, helicopters, all that stuff.

01:16:15.120 But that one is also a two-week tryout,

01:16:19.300 but very physical and mental.

01:16:21.140 A lot of times, at least from what I understand.

01:16:22.860 HRT is you?

01:16:23.480 Yeah, HRT.

01:16:24.280 It's like you just want to get through the two weeks

01:16:25.760 without getting injured.

01:16:26.680 And you went through it?

01:16:27.600 No, no.

01:16:28.260 I was going to.

01:16:28.880 If I wouldn't have got out of New York City, I was going to diet down to probably around 250 pounds

01:16:34.160 because there's a lot of running, and I was going to go try out.

01:16:37.100 Does that mean I would have made it?

01:16:38.140 No.

01:16:38.700 A lot of people don't ever.

01:16:40.000 I don't know.

01:16:40.640 I haven't known anybody that made it their first time.

01:16:42.620 Wow.

01:16:43.080 But the undercover school is two weeks.

01:16:46.160 Yeah, what are some of the courses?

01:16:47.060 What are you guys?

01:16:47.740 What's the coursework?

01:16:48.420 So the gist is this.

01:16:52.600 Big on sleep deprivation.

01:16:54.440 No days off.

01:16:56.660 That sleep deprivation brings out weaknesses.

01:16:58.880 right so you're going to be getting training during the day i might teach a block on the

01:17:03.200 outlaws i might teach a block on white supremacy cases that i've worked maybe somebody else is

01:17:07.520 teaching maybe it's the legal person whatever you're going to get training during the day and

01:17:11.200 at night generally uh the way it was running when i was in it at night you're going to be doing

01:17:15.920 role-playing scenarios you're probably going to get two a night and everybody goes through

01:17:20.400 every scenario that way there's no liability in other words you can't say hey that person's

01:17:25.280 background as drugs and you only gave them undercover drug scenarios got it you know

01:17:29.220 what's like an example scenario you would probably go through they probably wouldn't want me to say

01:17:33.220 that's fair because it'll give it away that's fair but just say this you're getting tested

01:17:36.940 you may die you may die miserably in a scenario and then you got to turn around and go all right

01:17:42.460 buck up little camper we're still got one more for the night you know well if you go over two

01:17:48.140 in one night bro oh yeah yeah and then and i will tell you this uh i got certified in 02 2002

01:17:55.700 i started role playing in 2003 and i probably only missed a handful of schools in my 23 years

01:18:01.280 with fbi and i never knew or heard of a 100 graduation rate that doesn't mean that it's

01:18:06.720 hazing and none of that stuff it just means that it's a great certification school and not

01:18:12.160 everybody's cut out for undercover understood what do you think is the number one thing that

01:18:15.720 blows like an officer's cover uh blowing the cover oh man uh there could be i mean bad bad

01:18:25.400 backstopping bad having a bad legend you slipping up and not knowing your stuff like your story or

01:18:31.360 whatever yeah you need to know it and picture picture if you're undercover for two years

01:18:34.820 i'll meet you on day one whatever i say right now i need to remember two years from now so that's

01:18:40.380 why I stuck close to who I was bro and as I got older now in early in the game oh man I was making

01:18:46.400 like I'd be undercover and I'd be signing my name Scott Payne and undercover I'd the P would form

01:18:51.660 and I'd go I'm Callaway and I'd do but then I'd be home as Scott Payne and I would sign Scott

01:18:56.560 Callaway and you're like dadgum it but lucky for me I ended up getting better at it and by the time

01:19:01.480 I was when I retired I think I had like eight phones I had like one FBI one personal everything

01:19:06.960 else was undercover and i just i just get so i got so good because i'd be like i'm gonna say good

01:19:12.580 because it sounds like i'm chest beating but it just it was easier for me to do like i the phone

01:19:18.200 would ring and i'd see the skull and the color and i go okay that's that case what's up brother

01:19:22.000 how's it going blah blah you know that's that case yeah dang man yeah so at one time you were

01:19:27.620 actively involved in how many cases oh man i don't so there are again i'll say it again there

01:19:35.660 men and women out there have done way more than me for sure but i will say that for my 23 years

01:19:40.280 in the fbi if you were a full-time undercover like like you're not doing anything else but

01:19:45.280 undercover that was pretty rare uh as an fbi agent um because as i said i was still expected

01:19:51.380 to run cases and do whatever back in my office right so but you were working full on full-time

01:19:56.680 undercover uh there was i know i can remember twice maybe there was a third time that i was

01:20:01.800 listed full-time undercover in the fbi but all the other times i would it might be two weeks

01:20:05.760 undercover but i go back home and then i'm a case agent again and i've got to run training for

01:20:10.960 everybody and firearms and tactics you ever do like chef work you ever been in like a because

01:20:16.180 i could also see you i just thought of this man i'm thinking of ways i could see you doing

01:20:19.600 undercover and i'm thinking dessert chef with a hat yes with a hat because a lot of those guys

01:20:28.100 You know, they'll have a beard, they'll have some facial hair, they'll have tattoos, because

01:20:31.200 it's a lot of artistic...

01:20:31.860 Oh, no, y'all can put the hairnet on.

01:20:33.500 Oh, totally, yeah.

01:20:34.300 It's artistic people that are our kind of chefs, you know what I'm saying?

01:20:36.960 It's like, that's kind of like an artistic sort of style.

01:20:39.660 Yeah, more like, ah, squirting the, you know, doing a little thing.

01:20:41.620 Yeah, yeah, that frosting pipette.

01:20:43.260 You like a depepper?

01:20:44.240 You put a...

01:20:44.780 You want a depepper?

01:20:45.700 You put a set of handcuffs on an eclair, you know?

01:20:49.000 Yeah, I could see you doing something like that.

01:20:51.860 All law enforcement thieves, that's pretty good.

01:20:53.720 Was there pretty...

01:20:54.400 But most of the ones that you did, it was pretty close to who you were, though.

01:20:58.100 Yeah, the exception would be when I got called for murder for hire.

01:21:02.900 Because I'm a jokester.

01:21:04.580 I got a pretty sick sense of humor.

01:21:07.140 I may know or not.

01:21:08.120 I used to say this like, I might not know a lot, but I know funny.

01:21:12.400 That's fair.

01:21:13.240 So sense of humor, jovial, but when I'm doing a murder for hire,

01:21:16.660 or what I would call a closer, like if you're somebody wanting to do something bad

01:21:21.180 and you're meeting me and you want to bomb, I call that like a closer. 0.97

01:21:24.400 Like I'm providing you with a gun that you want to go shoot up a synagogue 0.99

01:21:27.160 or something like that.

01:21:27.820 got it i call that a closer so those my jovialness goes away i never i mean i wouldn't there's no

01:21:33.140 point me really building rapport with you because you think i'm a stone cold killer

01:21:36.060 got it and the stone cold kid that's usually quicker cases too have there been some murder

01:21:41.120 for hires that you got involved oh yeah really a lot and who's often trying to kill whom

01:21:45.040 uh is there a commonality there uh well i would say it would be spousal right would probably be

01:21:53.980 the most but it would be like wife cheating wife and her the man she's cheating with solicit me

01:22:03.620 to kill the husband because there's like a 92 000 life insurance plan got it i never the stuff

01:22:09.360 you see in the movies and i mean i've known some of my mentors that have done those hundred

01:22:13.960 thousand dollar payment hits i'm like i know not in my world man it was yeah it was 10 grand i'll

01:22:20.740 I'll give you $12,000 after we collect the insurance policy.

01:22:27.300 And I'm like, you're telling me you want me to go kill somebody on your word. 0.97

01:22:31.540 Wow.

01:22:31.920 And no, that's not how this works.

01:22:34.340 Yeah.

01:22:34.860 So give me something, you know.

01:22:36.320 And where would they meet?

01:22:37.240 Where does somebody like that usually try to meet you at for the first time?

01:22:40.080 Like, is there a general place?

01:22:41.620 Nah, I mean, I've met them in hotel rooms.

01:22:43.700 I've met them at their place.

01:22:45.000 Right.

01:22:45.200 But one of the ones that's in the book, I got, they believed we were bikers.

01:22:51.700 I brought in a task force officer.

01:22:53.580 They believed we were 1% of bikers, and they were hiring us to do four home invasions and murder, I think, two or three people.

01:23:01.220 But what they do is they knew where the dope was because the son was running the dope and the money.

01:23:07.680 So he knew of four different drug dealers, and he knew where the cash was at, where the guns were at, where the dope was at in every house.

01:23:14.500 so the plan was to do four home invasions 0.70

01:23:16.900 and then murder two of them 0.83

01:23:18.680 and then I get some money I guess 0.99

01:23:20.820 that seems like a lot 1.00

01:23:22.940 and she was a wild one man 0.98

01:23:24.920 this is later in my career

01:23:26.920 and I

01:23:28.880 like I told you I would joke around

01:23:32.720 and be like with headquarters I'm like

01:23:34.100 how come I don't get to go to like

01:23:35.800 you know overseas

01:23:37.580 and how come I don't

01:23:39.060 how come I don't get to get on big boats

01:23:41.600 you know yeah I can get on one if I'm cleaning it

01:23:43.840 You know what I mean?

01:23:45.740 I'm getting the chum out the back.

01:23:47.440 Yeah, why don't I get the big gig?

01:23:49.060 Yeah, what is this?

01:23:49.660 Oh, I get to carry the luggage.

01:23:51.020 That's cool.

01:23:51.620 Yeah.

01:23:52.320 If I'm in a fancy environment, it's because I was muscle for the main person there.

01:23:55.980 That's it.

01:23:56.560 Amen.

01:23:57.140 Yeah, sometimes you need that guy to stand next to the guy.

01:23:59.080 In the back, you know.

01:24:02.020 Were you ever in an environment where somebody pulled out a weapon and it was really?

01:24:05.480 Oh, yeah.

01:24:06.040 Yeah, I have been.

01:24:07.700 But let me tell you about Tammy real quick, though.

01:24:09.420 Okay.

01:24:10.320 Yeah, tell me about Tammy.

01:24:11.320 So we go for this one case, and it was in Ohio, and this lady, we think we're, we know

01:24:17.200 we're going to meet the husband, and we thought it was the husband's plan, because we've talked

01:24:21.060 to somebody, talked to them, and then we know that they're looking for somebody to do this

01:24:24.900 kind of thing.

01:24:25.960 You thought it was the husband's plan.

01:24:27.280 Yeah.

01:24:27.600 So we go to the garage, and, you know, we're talking to the husband, and he's like, well,

01:24:31.900 it's not my plan, it's my old lady's.

01:24:33.480 And I'm like, well, why are we talking to you then?

01:24:37.380 Where's the old lady?

01:24:38.400 She's like, oh, she's sleeping.

01:24:39.880 we're all staring

01:24:41.600 awkward silence

01:24:42.680 you think I should

01:24:44.120 go wake her up

01:24:44.800 and I said

01:24:45.160 I didn't drive

01:24:46.020 all the way out here

01:24:46.720 to talk to no one

01:24:47.640 yeah

01:24:48.080 we're gonna do business

01:24:49.560 let's do business 0.95

01:24:50.160 he goes and wakes her up

01:24:51.580 she hops in the truck

01:24:52.480 in the front passenger seat 1.00

01:24:53.500 they're in the back

01:24:54.280 she is tweaking 0.70

01:24:55.720 she's clawing herself 0.81

01:24:56.840 flakes of skin 0.96

01:24:57.840 are going everywhere 1.00

01:24:58.660 we're probably

01:25:00.080 inhaling it

01:25:00.680 you know

01:25:01.060 oh yeah

01:25:02.160 oh you can cook up 0.87

01:25:03.280 a little bit of that skin 1.00

01:25:04.020 you can grill you up 1.00

01:25:04.720 a little bowl of it

01:25:05.500 some fork rinds

01:25:06.020 yeah

01:25:06.280 hit it 1.00

01:25:06.920 smoke that shit 1.00

01:25:08.640 some fork rinds 1.00

01:25:09.720 That's some real poor crimes

01:25:12.500 So we're driving

01:25:14.160 And as she's showing us all these spots

01:25:15.680 She's like talking out fast

01:25:16.620 She's kind of tweaking a little bit 1.00

01:25:17.780 At least that's my opinion 1.00

01:25:18.900 I don't know if she was on drugs 1.00

01:25:19.960 And she's hiring to kill the husband? 1.00

01:25:21.880 No 1.00

01:25:22.240 It was her idea

01:25:24.180 She just

01:25:25.040 I mean the husband's involved

01:25:27.100 But it was her idea

01:25:28.080 So she's the one that gets in the car

01:25:29.320 Because it's her son

01:25:30.140 That's driving around the dope for these people

01:25:32.240 Got it

01:25:32.660 So she's showing us these spots

01:25:34.300 But while she's showing us these spots

01:25:35.520 She starts talking all this crazy stuff

01:25:37.100 She's like

01:25:37.620 She's like

01:25:39.020 you know I'm really into torture

01:25:41.560 so if you need anybody tortured that you bring

01:25:43.640 I'm really big into it and I'm like okay

01:25:45.780 driving I'm like alright and again

01:25:47.700 it's later in my career I'm just kind of

01:25:49.720 I don't know if I'm nonchalant or desensitized

01:25:52.120 or whatever you want to call it but I'm

01:25:53.760 driving she says you know that you

01:25:55.760 can take I can get graphic

01:25:57.920 on here right because it's graphic

01:25:59.500 okay so she says

01:26:01.820 it's in the book anyway

01:26:02.500 she says

01:26:04.240 you know you can take a hanger and bend it on the 0.99

01:26:07.840 end and shove it into the man's penis sorry i hit the microphone so i said it's all right 0.99

01:26:11.840 bend the hanger on the end shoving into a man's penis rip it back out and then pour salt in the 1.00

01:26:17.680 wound now the guys in the back are going oh goodness gray oh man and i'm like literally 0.99

01:26:23.880 two weeks prior to that i'd had my second lumbar fusion the surgery was great and an easy recovery

01:26:29.180 but they had messed up i had to get dry cath so as she's describing that and i'm like i that's

01:26:34.120 pretty much what i felt two weeks ago right so it's hitting home with you yeah so then she's

01:26:38.600 like and then you can take there's another one you can do you can take a pvc pipe and shove it 0.97

01:26:42.600 up somebody's anus run barbed wire up in it and rip their anus from the inside out well that's 0.97

01:26:47.380 insane right and i'm looking at her and i'm going we pull up to the red light and i lean over and i 0.98

01:26:51.040 go why are you so angry and she's like yeah she said i think one of the lines she don't know if

01:26:56.860 she used it right then or later she said i've been unlucky in love wow so as we're well she's 0.94

01:27:01.780 She's talking damn, I mean, she's looking, she's doing like, 0.87

01:27:04.520 it sounds like she's doing side quests from Home Depot or something 1.00

01:27:07.440 in Laredo or whatever, like, because that shit's, I mean, 0.99

01:27:11.180 I was undercover in Laredo. 0.99

01:27:12.280 What is she talking about, dude? 0.99

01:27:14.960 She sounds just like an angry ex-Lowe's employee or whatever.

01:27:18.920 So we're driving, and I'm like, 0.86

01:27:21.600 are you sure you don't want to kill these people?

01:27:23.380 She goes, no, no, everybody knows me around here, 0.99

01:27:25.160 but if you need somebody to torture it, I can torture them.

01:27:26.640 I'm like, oh, my gosh.

01:27:27.880 So we pull up to the next red light, and she says, you know,

01:27:30.040 my husband I told him never go on a bender again she said he was gone for three or four days up

01:27:35.460 all the time I can't think it was cocaine she said he was using but went on a cocaine bender she said

01:27:40.120 he came back she couldn't find him he came back she said he passed out so hard he didn't wake up

01:27:44.720 you know what she did to him and he's a skinny man she said so I went and got a two by four and 0.96

01:27:49.340 I shoved it under his legs and I took an industrial stapler and stapled his scrotum to the board oh 0.90

01:27:56.160 And when he woke up from it, he's trying to stand up, 0.87

01:27:59.300 but it's stapled to the board behind him, and he's trying to move,

01:28:02.900 and he's screaming for her to take it out.

01:28:04.300 She said no.

01:28:04.960 He had to call his friend over to do it.

01:28:06.980 We confirmed it with the husband.

01:28:08.500 No.

01:28:08.800 I thought, man, she's got to be full of it.

01:28:10.460 He said, nope, she did it.

01:28:12.500 And I said, and you're still with her?

01:28:13.940 He said, I ain't never had nobody doing nothing like that to me.

01:28:16.100 And I'm like, what the heck?

01:28:18.120 Sometimes love is just so violent.

01:28:22.080 I know.

01:28:22.440 And so when she said that part, as we're pulling up to stop,

01:28:27.820 because one of the task force officers, he was like, he goes,

01:28:31.500 man, remind me never to piss you off, you know, one of those things, you know.

01:28:34.540 And when we pulled up, you know, all that stuff's running through my head,

01:28:37.640 all the scenarios.

01:28:38.360 And when we pull up, I go, you watch a lot of slasher flicks?

01:28:42.200 And she goes, that's all I watch.

01:28:43.280 And I went, now it's making sense.

01:28:45.460 She's talking about human centipede, like sewing a body into a body.

01:28:48.980 And I'm like, good gravy.

01:28:51.040 I'm like, but in my mind, I'm laughing to myself because I'm going, these are my people.

01:28:56.140 This is what my skill set leads me to.

01:28:58.300 You know what I mean?

01:28:59.680 I go back in the backwoods and somebody's talking, not trying to chastise anybody, but they're talking.

01:29:05.920 They don't have any teeth and their lips aren't moving.

01:29:08.420 I had to revert back to my family, some distant people in my family to go, okay, now I know what they're saying.

01:29:14.780 This is where I belong.

01:29:15.340 Now I know what they're saying.

01:29:16.980 Because at first I'm like, what?

01:29:18.060 And I'm going, oh, I know what you're saying.

01:29:19.800 yeah this way yeah i'm translating oh yeah well you never really lose lose where you're from you

01:29:25.300 know uh just start hanging out with them hey i'll get more and more country oh dude yeah that

01:29:30.400 happens quick you go home and you just back up and home comes back to you you know because it's

01:29:35.960 always been there sometimes it's just like uh it's it's it sits on the sidelines sometimes

01:29:41.020 or it's it's intermingled with the new places you're at um was there ever any spaces where

01:29:47.060 you got involved and there was like um like human sat like any any type of like sacrificial or like

01:29:52.000 ceremonial stuff that kind of went on yeah i uh so working domestic terrorism there started the

01:30:00.220 we started seeing a shift where a lot of the white supremacist groups were claiming to be odinist

01:30:07.320 right they were claiming to be pagans um but that's not illegal and i've got some very good

01:30:14.320 friends who are pagans and they are odinist so if odinist bring that up o-d-i-n-i-s-t-s okay

01:30:22.400 odinism um is generally a racialist oriented practice that places the highest fundamental

01:30:29.400 view on the figure of odin uh odinist pagan usually refers to a norse germanic pagan who

01:30:36.400 centers their practice on the god odin but in modern usage the term odinist is heavily entangled

01:30:41.740 with far-right radical, far-right racialist groups.

01:30:45.840 In a straightforward religious sense,

01:30:47.480 Odinism is a form of Germanic Norse paganism

01:30:49.700 that honors Odin as a chief deity,

01:30:51.800 along with other Norse gods such as Thor, Freyja,

01:30:55.180 Freyja, Freyja, and Frigg.

01:30:59.500 Can you give me any better information about it?

01:31:03.100 Yeah, because I'm going to disagree with what that just said

01:31:05.180 because that's what I was getting ready to say.

01:31:06.480 Okay.

01:31:06.760 The pagan part right there, relationship to pagan,

01:31:09.240 that would read that.

01:31:10.300 Okay.

01:31:10.640 Because maybe they're tying the word Odinist to white supremacy, but that was what I was going to say, that true pagans are upset because, you know, Hitler used a lot of Odinism stuff.

01:31:22.500 You would see like the Sonnengrad, you would see all the Norse-type runes and stuff, but that doesn't mean that they're white supremacists, so maybe you want to read that.

01:31:32.360 Odinism is a modern neo-pagan religion that revives the ancient Norse and Germanic worship

01:31:38.360 of deities like Odin and Thor, emphasizing personal honor, bravery, and a connection

01:31:42.920 to nature.

01:31:44.040 While many practitioners view it as a universal nature-based faith, specific branches and

01:31:49.260 extremist groups have co-opted the movement as a racially exclusive white supremacist

01:31:53.780 ideology.

01:31:54.860 Does that sound?

01:31:55.440 Yes.

01:31:56.020 That's what I was talking about.

01:31:57.360 Okay, got it.

01:31:57.860 But so we started seeing a shift back, I guess you can say, because even under the Hitler neo-Nazi stuff, you would see a lot of Norse runes and Norse mythology and stuff like that.

01:32:10.940 What years was this when you were seeing this?

01:32:13.280 Well, I mean, so the base case that I'm going to talk about was 2019.

01:32:17.460 We took it down in 2020.

01:32:18.580 Okay, got it.

01:32:19.200 Yeah, took it down in COVID year.

01:32:20.400 So you start seeing that, and I've got close friends who are pagans. 1.00

01:32:26.400 And you look at the Asatra community, they are unhappy. 1.00

01:32:30.020 The Asatra community? 1.00

01:32:31.080 Asatra is pagan. 1.00

01:32:32.220 Asatra. 0.98

01:32:32.780 Yeah, Asatru.

01:32:33.960 Asatru.

01:32:34.880 So they believe in the Norse pantheon.

01:32:38.900 So what you read, Thor, Freya, you know.

01:32:42.520 Friar.

01:32:43.200 Friar and Frigg.

01:32:44.420 Frigg.

01:32:44.960 Odin is the Norse. 0.63

01:32:47.180 And forget about it. 0.87

01:32:48.580 Forget about it. 1.00

01:32:49.560 That's the Italian one. 0.97

01:32:50.500 There are other pantheons where people might be like, oh, I'm an Egyptian pantheon or whatever.

01:32:58.360 But we started seeing this stuff.

01:33:00.900 And if you go and look at pagans, like back, well, I mean, you can find it in Christianity, too.

01:33:06.160 There were sacrifices, right?

01:33:09.180 We have the Bible as sacrifices in it.

01:33:11.100 Yeah, Old Testament.

01:33:13.960 So one of the cases I did, I whistled, sorry.

01:33:16.420 So one of the cases I did was into an accelerationist group.

01:33:21.000 So I go into great detail in the book, but it's like if you ask the average person in

01:33:26.840 America, you know, what do you think a white supremacist is?

01:33:29.460 A lot of them, they may know neo-Nazi.

01:33:31.680 They may know like a skinhead, or they're going to say like KKK, Ku Klux Klan, hoods

01:33:36.300 and robes and stuff.

01:33:37.340 That's not what this is.

01:33:38.680 These are accelerationists, and they don't believe that there's a political solution

01:33:43.720 to save the white race.

01:33:44.660 they believe that society is going to collapse either on its own or from mad made of it man 0.66

01:33:50.140 made events and they want to speed that up they want to speed it up through guerrilla warfare

01:33:54.860 tactics like just small hits just picture like power grid goes down over here water systems

01:34:00.440 poisoned over here train derailed over here anything to create chaos got it um i'm not saying

01:34:06.340 it's the best game plan in the world and this may be hard to wrap your mind around but uh we they

01:34:12.200 came onto our radar um from being online and recruiting and so they were recruiting online

01:34:19.140 and a lot of your accelerations also uh groups were big on what we call flyering or stickering

01:34:26.280 or postering so you'll put up a flyer and it'll be like uh save your race join the base you know

01:34:32.220 survivalist group there you go and see that qr code so you'd scan that qr code and it takes you

01:34:38.000 right to bit shoot and there's a recruitment video right there and that's my picture right there i

01:34:42.660 mean that that those are bibles being burnt right there in that fire they are yeah if you blow it

01:34:47.000 up you'll see holy bible on that picture you can dim it down i don't even want to see that but i

01:34:52.080 believe that it's happening and so and who's the people on the left is this that's not that christmas

01:34:56.620 thing they do on the levee over there in lafayette is it no that'd be a 20 to 30 foot cross on fire

01:35:02.340 with diesel fuel.

01:35:03.560 I don't understand it, man.

01:35:05.520 I know.

01:35:05.860 There's a lot of history

01:35:06.660 in the Ku Klux Klan.

01:35:08.680 I wonder if we should have 0.81

01:35:09.480 someone on sometime

01:35:10.080 just to learn even about it.

01:35:11.600 And there's Matt Damon.

01:35:13.340 Obviously, he was involved.

01:35:15.620 Sorry, Matt.

01:35:16.500 That's clean-cut Scott Payne.

01:35:19.180 Is it really?

01:35:20.160 That's a Polaroid picture, yeah.

01:35:21.620 Bro, oh my God,

01:35:22.700 I just realized.

01:35:23.700 Yeah, that's not...

01:35:24.320 Bro, you...

01:35:24.980 Dang, I do look like

01:35:25.780 Matt Damon right there.

01:35:26.720 Bro, you look like

01:35:27.740 Matt Damon right now.

01:35:28.900 No way.

01:35:29.680 I'm not even joking.

01:35:30.480 Bring up...

01:35:30.960 People must tell you

01:35:31.560 this all the time.

01:35:31.980 No, I used to get confused for Toby Keith all the time.

01:35:35.300 No, B. Keith, dude.

01:35:36.980 You look like Matt Damon.

01:35:38.660 Dude, that's crazy, bro.

01:35:41.360 That picture does actually look like Matt Damon.

01:35:43.220 I didn't ever realize that.

01:35:44.360 Matt Damon's going to play you in your life story one day.

01:35:46.380 That'd be pretty wild.

01:35:47.300 Pretty good.

01:35:48.280 Okay, so you're infiltrating.

01:35:49.500 So you get into this group with the base.

01:35:51.580 And, yeah, so, yeah, how do things escalate?

01:35:54.140 And what are you learning once you get in?

01:35:55.220 And you were telling me that before I interrupted you.

01:35:56.600 Go on.

01:35:57.320 So I'm going in to where they're posting because they're trying to recruit.

01:36:01.980 And it would be like, you know, if you're interested, contact us at the base underscore one at protonmail.com.

01:36:08.540 Again, ProtonMail, thinking that it's fully encrypted.

01:36:11.800 I think that was based out of Russia.

01:36:13.880 I'm not sure.

01:36:14.700 I can't remember right now.

01:36:17.020 So I start liking some of their stuff.

01:36:19.540 They start responding back, and then I start emailing.

01:36:21.820 So I go through like a week to a week and a half of emailed questions.

01:36:26.620 Pretty thorough.

01:36:27.740 What can you bring to the table, this, that, and the other?

01:36:29.320 And then I'm instructed to, I mean, my height, weight, ethnicity, all that stuff.

01:36:35.640 And then it says, if you want to read that, oh, Geneva, Switzerland.

01:36:40.480 All right, Proton Mills in Switzerland.

01:36:42.120 Okay, go on.

01:36:43.260 All right.

01:36:45.300 Thank you.

01:36:45.940 So then I'm instructed to download the Wire app.

01:36:49.340 It's called Wire.

01:36:50.580 It operates a lot like WhatsApp.

01:36:52.600 Okay.

01:36:52.800 And so I'm told to download it, reach out, and then on a Friday afternoon in July of 2019,

01:36:59.960 I did like an hour and 15-minute panel interview.

01:37:03.440 I couldn't see them, but I could hear like four to five voices.

01:37:06.780 Really?

01:37:07.180 And were you guys standing on two sides of a fence or something, or what was going on?

01:37:10.020 No, it was just on the app.

01:37:11.580 Oh, it was online.

01:37:12.260 Yeah, so I'm just listening to them, and they're asking questions.

01:37:15.040 And like I said, I don't know if they're going to tell me to cut my phone on, show myself.

01:37:18.840 And so I was in a club. 1.00

01:37:20.520 I'm picturing some damn home improvement type shit. 1.00

01:37:22.340 You're standing over the fence or whatever. 1.00

01:37:24.320 No, I jumped in my truck and drove to an abandoned parking lot,

01:37:28.600 and I was making sure I had anything.

01:37:31.740 I cleaned it, make sure there's nothing in there that says Scott Payne

01:37:34.420 or anything like that.

01:37:35.040 Yeah, they could see anything to know where you're at.

01:37:37.040 Just an old truck, you know.

01:37:39.720 So I did that interview, and there was a lot of stuff

01:37:42.300 because the accelerationists, their Bible is basically a book called Siege.

01:37:49.740 that book Siege was written by James Mason

01:37:52.460 he's a long time white supremacist

01:37:54.480 he created Adam Woffin

01:37:55.960 another accelerationist group

01:37:58.080 but

01:38:00.220 it's essentially a bunch of

01:38:02.300 interviews but he idolizes

01:38:04.100 like there's a lot of Satanism in there

01:38:06.400 he idolizes

01:38:07.240 Charles Manson

01:38:10.540 things like that but there's a lot

01:38:12.440 of that for instance

01:38:13.840 accelerationist

01:38:16.160 let me say this so accelerationist

01:38:17.900 you know you've seen the white supremacists that are out on the streets with picket signs and

01:38:22.100 yelling during pride rallies or whatever that's not accelerationist the per the siege method

01:38:27.300 number one that makes you a target number two lets everybody know who you are got it number

01:38:31.620 three it does nothing for the cause that's what they're saying so we're going to do those guerrilla

01:38:35.680 warfare hits okay that kind of thing bring it up again see just want to see that real quick and

01:38:41.060 uh cite it uh siege siege the collective writings of james mason an anthology of essays by the

01:38:48.680 neo-nazi james mason after growing disillusioned with the mass movement approach of neo-nazi

01:38:53.840 movements mason began advocating for white revolution through terrorism um though the

01:39:00.600 book was reviewed in several periodicals upon its release and was praised and distributed by the

01:39:04.800 influent influential white supremacist tom metzger most neo-nazis at the time either ignored or

01:39:10.400 criticized the book.

01:39:13.780 In the 2010s, the book found a new audience among online younger neo-Nazis due to the

01:39:18.440 book's republication by the neo-fascist forum Iron March.

01:39:23.340 In addition to its promotion of neo-Nazism, it lionizes serial killers, mass murderers,

01:39:28.800 and Charles Manson.

01:39:31.800 Siege advocates neo-Nazi lone wolf terrorism.

01:39:35.740 Yep.

01:39:36.420 Understood.

01:39:37.100 So let me go off of that.

01:39:39.880 Okay.

01:39:40.400 And so the base, I'll do that interview.

01:39:44.500 They ask me all kinds of stuff.

01:39:46.040 I answer best I can.

01:39:48.040 Again, tennis, right?

01:39:49.360 I don't know what they're throwing at me.

01:39:50.640 I'm just going to be ready, right?

01:39:53.060 And then he tells me, and I could tell who the leader is on there

01:39:56.520 because it's the deeper voice, but it was Ronaldo Nazaro.

01:39:59.960 After they've explained to me what acceleration this is,

01:40:02.640 what the base believes, siege culture,

01:40:05.540 they gave me a 24-hour rest period.

01:40:07.560 And they said, because now I know what they're about.

01:40:10.400 I can decide whether I really want to be a part of it,

01:40:12.100 and they can talk about whether they want me to be a part of it.

01:40:14.020 Got it.

01:40:14.300 And true to the word, 24 hours later on the Saturday, I got hit, ping,

01:40:19.100 something to the effect of we'd like to have you in the organization.

01:40:22.120 And I said, I'd be honored.

01:40:22.980 So they tell me, they go, where are you at?

01:40:26.880 I said, East Tennessee. 0.96

01:40:27.980 And they said, well, the closest cell, C-E-L-L,

01:40:30.560 because I know I've got a country accent, C-E-L-L,

01:40:33.160 the closest cell to me was in North Georgia.

01:40:36.080 And then I was contacted by the cell leader.

01:40:39.260 But to parlay off of what that said, terrorism, siege.

01:40:45.240 He said, forget all this grandstanding, go more terrorism, lone wolf attacks.

01:40:50.540 So a lot of people don't know this.

01:40:52.560 Al-Qaeda, translated to English, is the base.

01:40:55.980 Al-Qaeda's MO was three to five man cells all over the world training for D-Day, waiting for the phone call.

01:41:02.320 the bases mo three to five man sales all over the world training for that what they call the

01:41:08.520 boogaloo if they're still calling it that i've been retired for five years so um and when you

01:41:14.860 met them are these guys are they aggressive like males what kind of energy did you feel overall

01:41:20.660 when you met these guys it depends but it wasn't like back in the hammer skin uh white supremacy

01:41:28.100 heavy metal mosh pit crowd um but i don't want to get too much on a tangent but i will say this

01:41:36.480 when i'm instructing um number one we don't like to say the names of the the mass shooters

01:41:41.700 we don't want to give them any credit amen you know i'll name every victim from colabine yeah

01:41:46.820 i'll name every victim from charleston every victim from buffalo don't want to say the kid's

01:41:51.740 name or the or the shooter's name right but sometimes when i'm teaching undercover i have

01:41:55.900 to because we're talking about a certain thing but um what i'll say to people because it sounded

01:42:00.140 like you were like hey were these like jack dudes or whatever um all shapes and sizes but what i'll

01:42:05.660 tell people i said don't underestimate if i showed you a picture of the kids from columbine before

01:42:11.420 columbine happened what would you say if i showed you a picture of the kid from the aurora theater

01:42:15.740 shooting orange and yellowish hair what would you say before that happened charleston bowl haircut

01:42:21.900 skinny kid

01:42:22.900 but they still killed 0.94

01:42:24.240 a lot of people

01:42:24.840 right

01:42:25.240 so don't underestimate

01:42:26.820 because dad is dead

01:42:28.480 amen

01:42:28.980 we had a shooting

01:42:29.660 here in Nashville

01:42:30.380 yeah

01:42:30.900 my buddy

01:42:31.560 I'm buddies with the guy

01:42:32.920 that had the pistol

01:42:33.660 the two shooters

01:42:35.040 I met him

01:42:36.820 through some other

01:42:37.260 trainings

01:42:37.600 and I just seen him

01:42:38.620 like within a month

01:42:40.680 of that shooting

01:42:41.500 and you know

01:42:43.680 just don't underestimate

01:42:44.820 you know

01:42:45.480 so I meet them

01:42:47.080 and when I'm

01:42:48.140 they call me

01:42:48.900 and what'd you wear

01:42:49.600 to meet them

01:42:50.020 did you have to

01:42:50.560 I mean how do you

01:42:51.120 even pick out an outfit

01:42:51.820 I wore like, maybe like some hiking type pants.

01:42:55.600 You know, I didn't show up all bikerish, but I go to meet them and they tell me, they instruct

01:43:01.540 me, you come to Rome, Georgia. 0.88

01:43:03.500 I want you to park here.

01:43:04.720 I want you to take a picture of the statue downtown.

01:43:07.220 And then I want you to send it to me.

01:43:08.740 And they're watching.

01:43:10.140 I don't know how many, because at that point we knew we were going to meet somebody who

01:43:13.520 called themselves TMB.

01:43:14.900 I didn't know he was bringing a guy named Pestilence with him.

01:43:17.500 I didn't know.

01:43:18.340 We just, they're trying to cover me.

01:43:19.980 and I met the case team that I,

01:43:22.440 even though we talked on the phone,

01:43:23.520 I'd never met them before.

01:43:24.700 So I drive down to Rome, Georgia

01:43:26.500 because now I'm being,

01:43:27.820 This is crazy.

01:43:28.540 I know, because now I'm being,

01:43:29.560 now I'm being invited to meet them

01:43:31.000 for a face-to-face vet.

01:43:32.740 I like vetting in real life

01:43:34.440 because I passed the other one.

01:43:35.420 I passed the,

01:43:35.900 I passed the emails.

01:43:37.280 I passed the interview panel.

01:43:39.020 Now I got to pass a face-to-face meeting.

01:43:41.700 And when I met the case team,

01:43:43.040 again, we don't know really

01:43:44.100 who we're meeting or where we're going.

01:43:45.420 We got an inkling, I think,

01:43:46.860 but I know we didn't know

01:43:48.000 everybody in the group.

01:43:48.840 we did not at all um and the weather was bad so it's like i don't know can you get any kind

01:43:57.440 of aerial surveillance not when it's not when it's raining and stuff like that and it's hard

01:44:00.860 to light a cross in the rain too so you're not really gonna see well the okay accelerations

01:44:04.500 don't do the cross got it my bad lightings the kkk does got it um so these guys are hiding they're 0.86

01:44:11.620 all wearing fleck torn camo because the fleck torn pattern is german they're neo-nazis so they wear 0.61

01:44:16.940 nothing but the german pattern that does not mean if you have flecked on that you're white supremacist

01:44:20.840 no it just means that that's what they wear yeah so i i pull up uh meet the case team and they're

01:44:26.580 like hey they want to slap a gps tracker onto my truck just in case and i'm like yeah so i see your

01:44:30.780 squad says that yeah yeah it's my team my cover team and because let me explain it this way i was

01:44:36.660 assigned to knoxville so i'm a i'm an fbi agent in knoxville yeah but because the targets lived

01:44:42.520 than Georgia yeah well now you've got Atlanta field office and the Rome RA which is the satellite

01:44:47.480 office out of so that's who's going to be working that those targets right so I go down there to

01:44:52.020 meet that cover team or case team and we talk about some stuff I'll make some phone calls

01:44:56.780 and I see them kind of go under the back driver's side quarter panel so I don't know where they put

01:45:01.340 it but I know it's somewhere up in there I pull up I can't find a parking spot I'm going back and

01:45:06.900 forth on wire hey man I'm here okay look I found a spot but it's behind a coffee shop I'm in a

01:45:12.380 I think I was in a white Ford or something.

01:45:15.100 I can't remember what truck I was driving on that trip,

01:45:16.640 but give them the description of the truck.

01:45:18.900 And then they go, okay, I see you.

01:45:20.820 And I see them come walking.

01:45:22.100 So what comes walking up is about a 21-year-old

01:45:24.520 and soon to be 21 and a 19-year-old kid.

01:45:28.520 TMB is Luke Ling.

01:45:30.520 He's about 6'2", maybe 220, 225, but kind of frumpy.

01:45:35.600 And then Pestilence is Jacob.

01:45:39.120 And he is kind of more, not goth, but more like black metal.

01:45:43.620 But he's got BDUs bloused into his eight-inch tactical boots

01:45:47.260 and then a tank top of some black metal band, you know.

01:45:50.400 Shaved around the sides.

01:45:52.160 Probably GWAR, one of those. 1.00

01:45:53.520 Instant Pussy, one of those ones. 0.99

01:45:55.180 No, I'm talking like, we're going to talk probably like 0.99

01:45:58.960 Hell Witch, Sabbat, Satanic Goat Ritual, those kind of bands. 1.00

01:46:05.200 That kind of shit, yeah. 0.99

01:46:06.140 Yeah, and all it is, if you've ever been to a concert like that, 1.00

01:46:08.700 It's like, it's just constant.

01:46:10.660 Walla, walla, walla, walla, walla, walla, walla, walla, walla, walla, walla.

01:46:12.420 It's a lot of Home Depot noise.

01:46:13.980 Yeah.

01:46:15.600 It's like what I've seen played when they're trying to break people at Guantanamo Bay.

01:46:19.780 That's what they're playing in the background.

01:46:20.680 Got it, yeah.

01:46:21.440 With flashing lights and stuff.

01:46:22.860 Or like the accountant.

01:46:23.800 Like the accountant, you know, like Ben Affleck when he's in there cuts it on.

01:46:26.780 Yeah.

01:46:28.020 So they come walking up and, you know, it's the first meet.

01:46:32.540 So clearly I'm clean because I don't know what they're going to, I mean, if they're doing

01:46:36.700 their wherewithal, they're going to check me, right?

01:46:38.100 How many times in your head do you go over, okay, is there nothing, like, am I missing anything?

01:46:42.420 Like, that would have to be.

01:46:43.380 A lot.

01:46:44.520 And, like, I'll self-check.

01:46:46.280 I may even have somebody check me.

01:46:47.620 For sure.

01:46:48.240 I may clean my truck, but I'll be, hey, search my truck.

01:46:51.540 Is there anything on here that would let you know anything about me?

01:46:53.520 Yeah, search my truck.

01:46:54.220 Yeah.

01:46:54.740 I mean, what if you just got dry cleaning and your tag's in there, you know?

01:46:58.020 Oh, yeah.

01:46:58.740 Or prescription medicine, and it's in your real name, you know?

01:47:02.240 So they're walking up there.

01:47:03.560 You guys are behind the coffee shop.

01:47:05.200 Yep.

01:47:05.420 And he comes up and he says, you know, I'm like, hey, I came in.

01:47:09.180 It's White Warrior 88.

01:47:10.160 I'm like, hey, I'm White Warrior.

01:47:11.700 He's like, I'm TMB. 0.89

01:47:12.580 It's best.

01:47:12.940 It's like, man, cool.

01:47:14.020 Little niceties.

01:47:14.840 And then I need you to put your phone in airplane mode.

01:47:17.040 I said, okay.

01:47:17.580 I put it on airplane mode.

01:47:18.640 And he pulls out this thing that looks like the Geiger counter, man.

01:47:21.700 It had like a triangle card on it.

01:47:23.080 It was big, all kinds of lights and stuff on it.

01:47:24.780 I'm like, what the heck is that?

01:47:26.440 So he warns me.

01:47:28.060 Nothing.

01:47:28.440 I'm cool.

01:47:28.880 He starts wandering on the inside of the truck.

01:47:30.160 And I'm like, all right.

01:47:31.320 As he's walking down the side of the truck, that thing starts going nuts.

01:47:34.440 It's getting louder and louder, and lights are going off on it.

01:47:37.500 And I'm like, oh, no, it's picking up the GPS tracker.

01:47:40.940 And he's walking.

01:47:42.020 He gets right to the back fender.

01:47:44.480 And I'm like, I've already eased my right leg back.

01:47:47.340 I'm starting to get in that stance because I'm like, it's getting ready to go.

01:47:50.260 Because who knows what's going to happen right now.

01:47:53.300 I don't know if they're armed or not.

01:47:54.880 I'm going to assume they are.

01:47:57.720 And right when it was going, it's going nuts.

01:48:01.720 Pestilence says, you think it could be the power lines?

01:48:04.440 Because where we were, it was a steep hill and there were power lines right there.

01:48:07.360 So he walks over and that thing goes nuts.

01:48:10.180 What I found out is that thing picks up.

01:48:12.040 It's a $500 piece of equipment in 2019.

01:48:15.400 $500 piece of equipment that picks up everything.

01:48:17.920 Every airwave there is.

01:48:19.400 Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, RF, whatever.

01:48:22.080 And it'll color code and different sounds.

01:48:24.120 Somebody whispering loud.

01:48:25.140 Yeah, cellular.

01:48:25.980 Yeah, whatever.

01:48:26.640 Yeah.

01:48:27.140 So I lived to fight another day.

01:48:28.800 He said, hey, follow us to another place.

01:48:31.860 So at that point, I'm calling the case team.

01:48:33.560 And I'm like, you need to shut the tracker off.

01:48:35.440 I'm like, you need to shut it off.

01:48:36.760 And they're like, well, we're not sure if we can shut it off remotely.

01:48:39.880 And I'm like, well, you need to try.

01:48:41.380 And they're like, well, if we shut it off, we don't know if we can get it back on.

01:48:43.640 I said, what I'm telling you is whatever he's got is finding it.

01:48:47.800 And if you don't shut it off, it's going to be a quick undercover.

01:48:50.680 And it should be your choice.

01:48:52.400 Well, I mean, they were saying technically.

01:48:54.600 Like, they were saying, can you cut it off from a remote?

01:48:57.180 And if you did, can we get it back on?

01:48:58.960 And I'm getting the concern you don't want to lose me, but I'm like, hey.

01:49:01.740 so luckily I don't want to lose me I know right luckily they got it off and I pulled into the

01:49:06.660 parking lot of an abandoned concrete plant and I pull in I'm like looking up to the Lord I'm like

01:49:11.660 that's funny how many people have I seen die in a movie at an empty concrete plant but uh they

01:49:18.200 wandered me and it didn't go they wandered the truck and it didn't go off and I'm like cool so

01:49:21.620 then I go and that's when I started meeting everybody and then as the months went on you

01:49:25.940 would go and train um and we'd ever play ball together anything or like would you guys do any

01:49:30.680 Social excursions, field trips, or anything like that?

01:49:32.900 All shooting, all training.

01:49:34.300 Really?

01:49:34.780 Yeah, because Luke's dad had a 100-acre property in Rome, Georgia.

01:49:40.940 Got it.

01:49:41.500 And that's where we did a lot of our training.

01:49:43.320 That cell in the Maryland cell would come down and train.

01:49:46.920 And then at one point, we started finding all kinds of things like you talked about sacrifice.

01:49:54.640 That's what gets me into it.

01:49:55.560 So I'll speed up to that.

01:49:56.660 During the case, you start identifying more and more people.

01:49:59.720 and those people are some of them are outside of the united states so our world working partners

01:50:04.660 are opening cases on them some of them are in all kinds of states in the u.s but as i explained

01:50:09.080 before that means that maybe seattle is fbi is opening a case on the person that's in their

01:50:14.360 aor maybe detroit's opening cases george is opening multiple cases alabama's opening it

01:50:20.940 just goes um because at any given time there was there was a good 50 something people in the base

01:50:26.280 but the base was more like an umbrella group because every member that i knew that was in

01:50:33.160 the base they were also a part of another white supremacy group whether it be adam waffen or green

01:50:37.320 brigade or or uh man was it sunning i can't remember the name of it right now um but so you

01:50:46.960 were a member of another group as well but we did training and that first weekend and remember i'm a

01:50:52.860 firearms instructor certified at the FBI I was the lead tactical instructor for my division

01:50:57.100 and a 19 year old kid led carbine and it led led shooting and tactics he led the training

01:51:05.520 and it was good it wasn't bad and I'm thinking man how did you learn did you I mean you're not

01:51:11.620 you didn't run the military you're too young to be in and out to learn this he said no it was I

01:51:17.040 think it was mainly gaming and then his dad took him to um a range but he worked on it you know and

01:51:23.860 i was glad that they were safe with their weapons because i didn't know who you know what their

01:51:30.080 shooting was i was standing back when we started i was glad that they were good and safe but i was

01:51:34.600 also scared because if they were planning on doing something bad they were pretty uh good

01:51:40.220 i'd be spooked man so one of the big things like with undercover you go in there you've got enough

01:51:45.740 to go in it's all been approved there's a we've got the reporting and and people are predicated

01:51:51.520 so we're going in but do you have enough to charge them well in instances like this you've

01:51:56.140 been spewing a lot of hate online you've been saying a lot of crazy stuff but is what you're

01:52:02.080 doing just first amendment protected or are you actually planning on doing something bad

01:52:06.260 so sometimes we go in and you might just be in there for six months trying to figure out

01:52:11.300 if they're doing i've been in cases for five six months and i come back to the team and go they're

01:52:15.500 not doing anything illegal man it's all first amendment protected and we're just spinning our

01:52:20.640 wheels at this point you know and when did that turn for the base when did that kind of so i got

01:52:26.240 we were already talking about a bunch of stuff and i was starting to get the dm conversations

01:52:31.760 going on where it's more private uh direct messaging for those that don't know and what

01:52:35.860 is your wife thinking when you get home on the weekends and you got like a lot more white laundry

01:52:39.360 or whatever no dark stuff like it or i come home smelling like diesel fuel from the cliff from the

01:52:46.360 close clan they call it clan cologne because you can't stand that cross-up without the diesel fuel 0.84

01:52:50.720 pouring all over you unless somebody was holding an umbrella over you i guess oh damn yeah um but

01:52:55.400 okay so take us back in so at one point there's a uh there's somebody that gets doxed and and for 0.95

01:53:03.460 those that don't know what doxing is basically outing you right and the far left is very very

01:53:07.780 good at it they're really good at doxing you showing up to protest at your kids school at

01:53:13.200 your business at your home your parents whatever um and the right far right from what i experienced

01:53:19.840 can't stand that um because they feel like they're losing their life and their identity

01:53:23.980 that's why they're huge on anonymity so all these pictures you see if you pull up the base stuff

01:53:29.800 um where the bbc and the guardian was blasting all this stuff i mean i'm there but we're wearing

01:53:34.880 balaclavas um that one right i'll show you one it was me uh yeah that's me right there i'm on the

01:53:42.420 far right you're in that group photo yeah and who took the pictures did you guys go to a place no

01:53:47.360 no no just wanted to get one of the guys that didn't suit up um because you're always trying

01:53:51.520 to recruit well how was recruiting going overall did you feel like uh i mean ebbs and flows you

01:53:56.620 get people coming in and then you vet them and then and then some people might drop some people

01:54:00.540 might get doxxed so uh so any women in it no no um which was something i kind of

01:54:08.040 there was a lot of there was a lot of the guys that did not have partners oh you'd have more

01:54:14.960 men in it if you had more women in it yeah but they don't have partners so think about this

01:54:18.760 we're talking earlier about radicalization online picture for these cases i'm just gonna say it's a

01:54:24.140 young white guy young white man who's probably an outcast he's most definitely been bullied

01:54:31.040 uh can't get a date and they're just hating so then you go on in these groups at night 0.51

01:54:37.120 and this works on the other side too far left black separatists radical jihad kind of same

01:54:42.400 thing you're looking for somebody that's um uh like-minded individual yeah and and that's how

01:54:49.220 they start getting you um do you think that the media ostracizes white people do you feel like

01:54:55.300 it's does it boy i'm not answering that is that a tough request is that a bad no that should

01:54:59.580 probably give you my answer there you go no it depends i don't look you don't have to i i was

01:55:06.080 just thinking about it like you know i feel like there's a lot of like i don't know it's a tough

01:55:10.400 one it's a tough question i mean i'm white so what am i supposed to say i mean good point have i am

01:55:15.580 Am I privileged?

01:55:16.200 Am I not privileged? 0.99

01:55:17.020 Did I get stuff for free or did I have to bust my ass to get it? 0.98

01:55:19.700 So I don't, I just try not to answer that. 0.97

01:55:22.020 Yeah.

01:55:22.460 I mean, I know personally what I've had to do to be where I'm at.

01:55:25.860 Yeah.

01:55:26.780 That's a good point, man.

01:55:27.840 Somebody else might not believe that.

01:55:29.540 Yeah.

01:55:29.820 And it's in the eye of the beholder, no matter what I say.

01:55:32.080 I can talk till I'm blue in the face.

01:55:34.240 If you don't believe me, then that's it.

01:55:35.700 Yeah, we'll think about it another time.

01:55:37.060 But picture, you're in there, you're lonely, and you're looking for, you want to belong.

01:55:41.440 You want to belong.

01:55:42.420 It's human nature to want to belong.

01:55:44.080 yeah and want to feel a part of something to feel like brotherhood same thing same thing with gangs

01:55:49.100 same things with cults biker clubs it's a brotherhood your brother you know you're now you're

01:55:54.040 now you're one of us oh dude it was not like when you were growing up just having your friend it's

01:55:58.540 like going to the gym with a friend to go lift with anything that gives you some connection yeah

01:56:03.660 becomes a huge part of your life yeah so you get that and that's i'm glad you said that because

01:56:09.120 another way to describe

01:56:10.940 what I was describing

01:56:11.680 is isolation 0.72

01:56:12.440 and if you're a believer

01:56:14.920 when you get isolated

01:56:16.240 let's look at

01:56:17.480 the jungle 0.99

01:56:18.600 Africa 0.98

01:56:19.160 if you're a zebra 0.98

01:56:20.640 that gets isolated

01:56:21.460 you're a lot easier

01:56:22.240 to pick off

01:56:22.840 you know what I mean

01:56:23.660 just saying

01:56:24.280 undeniably

01:56:24.980 isolation is for the devil

01:56:26.760 man

01:56:27.020 I believe that

01:56:28.020 you know it's like

01:56:29.280 even though like

01:56:30.180 there's things

01:56:30.620 even in my own life

01:56:31.340 it's like man

01:56:31.860 I don't want to go

01:56:32.420 I don't want to do that

01:56:32.980 that is not the best part

01:56:36.060 to me talking

01:56:36.760 or communicating to me

01:56:37.840 yeah I'm with you on that

01:56:39.100 Anyway, carry on.

01:56:40.500 So this guy, a guy gets doxxed.

01:56:43.840 He's a member in South Africa, and he gets doxxed.

01:56:47.100 And then at that point, one of the members in the base is like,

01:56:49.840 how many of our brothers do we have to watch fall before we do something?

01:56:53.320 And he called for Operation Crystal Knot,

01:56:56.560 which was an actual operation in World War II.

01:56:59.340 Essentially, what they did is if you were not white,

01:57:04.380 you were Jewish, anti-fascist, whatever, 0.96

01:57:07.540 They would go down and smash your windows of your business, 0.99

01:57:10.500 slice the tires on your car, set stuff on fire.

01:57:13.200 So that's what he was calling for.

01:57:14.480 And some members did do it.

01:57:15.680 They went out and tagged some synagogues with some, you know, hate symbols.

01:57:23.160 I'm trying to remember if anybody set anything on fire or not.

01:57:25.320 I remember it being called for or slashing tires.

01:57:28.120 But so now we're starting to get a little bit more.

01:57:31.000 People are actually doing overt acts in furtherance of hate, right?

01:57:35.200 Even though it was just painting, and I mean, but, you know,

01:57:38.040 like I've had some people say, hey, man, I mean,

01:57:41.280 they just painted a synagogue, you know?

01:57:43.680 I mean, to be looking at this many years for a hate crime or whatever,

01:57:47.360 and I'm like, yeah, but what if you were one of those Jewish people

01:57:50.740 that went to that synagogue?

01:57:51.840 And now every time you go there, you're scared to death

01:57:54.040 because you've seen active shooter.

01:57:55.440 You've seen mass shooter events, Tree of Life in Pittsburgh, you know?

01:58:00.020 And I know a lot of those people now because I've helped out

01:58:03.040 with eradicate hate um and eradicate hates based out of pittsburgh and i've actually met

01:58:07.560 and i'm friends with um family members of the people that were murdered at tree life so yeah

01:58:13.240 my friend michael the other day was talking about uh the shooting that had happened in australia

01:58:18.900 new zealand no i think it was in bondi okay i was thinking of the new zealand christ church

01:58:24.320 no i think it was in bondi beach um oh there we go yeah this was in december um oh yeah yeah yeah

01:58:31.040 yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's sad to say that these shootings happen more and more often and

01:58:35.920 i just they start blending in my head which shootings do you mean just overall i mean just

01:58:39.900 like active shooter events yeah yeah i do remember that that was the sikh temple or something they

01:58:46.560 shot up you'd feel like people um i don't know evil's always going to be around you know well

01:58:54.300 you know a lot of interviews a lot of this of new age stuff like say a lot of like um if there's

01:58:59.400 anti-semitic if it's jewish specific hate do you think a lot of that is coming from um like people

01:59:05.580 who have or do you know actually if a lot of it's coming from like people who have nazi ideology

01:59:11.480 from like like hitler nazi ideology or is it people that are having reactions to um some of

01:59:20.040 israel's tactics and like their government's it's going to be both because if you're pro if

01:59:25.800 I got to figure out

01:59:28.100 I want to word it right

01:59:29.060 because I don't want anybody

01:59:29.600 to say you're saying

01:59:30.180 all pro-Palestine people

01:59:31.460 or no

01:59:31.880 but if you're on that

01:59:33.260 that extreme side

01:59:35.360 that's pro-Palestine 0.52

01:59:36.800 over Israel

01:59:37.400 well a lot of those people

01:59:38.560 aren't white

01:59:39.120 so you couldn't be

01:59:40.420 identifying with Hitler 0.97

01:59:41.340 because Hitler's more 0.88

01:59:42.460 of the white supremacy 0.60

01:59:43.180 but it's definitely 0.79

01:59:44.060 anti-Semitic

01:59:45.000 wait wait hold on a second 0.99

01:59:46.300 they're hating the Jews too 0.89

01:59:47.580 do you think that's

01:59:48.560 an extremist view

01:59:49.280 that people are pro-Palestine

01:59:50.400 no

01:59:50.900 no not at all

01:59:52.060 but if you were going

01:59:53.560 to go again

01:59:54.220 if you're going to go

01:59:54.820 to extreme 0.99

01:59:55.620 are you going to be happy that people are being slaughtered and murdered and raped and tortured 0.95

01:59:59.960 you know and you're anti-semitic um then you're more probably more that extremism side got it but 0.95

02:00:06.680 you were asking me if it was like is it hitler driven or is it pro-palestine anti-israel driven

02:00:13.120 yeah anti-israel government driven like or yeah so just to be super clear yeah man i think it's

02:00:18.880 just scary like i have jewish friends that have been like who have spoken out about like just

02:00:22.320 like being in fear and like they're like going to class you know and i'm i'm like i don't i mean

02:00:29.120 heck hitler wasn't even solid white i think he i mean you can pull it out i think he it was

02:00:34.560 determined that he had some jewish in his blood and then there's probably other ethnicities who

02:00:38.540 are scared of our relationship with israel and what could happen to them in the future

02:00:43.020 i get scared sometimes if i think with the surveillance state now i feel like everybody's

02:00:47.800 getting scared i know and now now the big the big i think the fresh topic right now on surveillance

02:00:53.140 is those flock cameras yeah it's like i a lot of my black friends are starting to are starting to 0.98

02:00:58.040 fuck them up yeah i'm not hating on that i'm not saying do it i'm just saying that the block 0.98

02:01:04.540 versus flock bro that's where i'm at you see a flock camera on a cul-de-sac one cul-de-sac why 0.99

02:01:09.920 do you need a flock camera i agree are you reading plates what's going on or does it pick up phone

02:01:14.620 stuff and it's the third party here's my concern third party company that's not law enforcement i

02:01:19.360 agree what are we doing so what oversight do you have do you have policies stopping i mean we've

02:01:23.760 got a constitution that is our that's our law that's our bible if you which it goes back to

02:01:28.740 you know you're talking about the border and stuff listen if i'm a law enforcement officer

02:01:33.420 number one i'm a peace officer yeah most of the cars used to say to protect and serve that's your

02:01:38.520 job you're a shepherd you should be you're protecting the sheep yeah from the wolves that's

02:01:43.840 I mean, I'm not trying to be all, you know, Jack Nicholson on the wall and be holier than now.

02:01:52.120 It's just my job is to enforce the law.

02:01:54.380 So I used to tell people, I'm like, well, don't hate me because I'm enforcing the law.

02:01:57.540 There's been so many people I've arrested or sat down at a table with after they've been arrested.

02:02:01.780 And I'll say, man, you know, I'm not saying I disagree with what you did.

02:02:05.380 I'm not saying I think you're a bad person.

02:02:06.960 I'm saying you're an adult and you made the choice to break the law and you got caught.

02:02:11.760 So here we are.

02:02:12.380 i'm not hating did you ever get so deep and tangled during like a um during um like a sting 0.95

02:02:19.180 or during an operation or during an undercover where at the end you were like damn this is 0.56

02:02:23.680 gonna be a long day when this bust happens yeah because it's gonna bother you yeah sorry and i

02:02:28.840 and i'm kind of taking us off uh off a base or i'm kind of taking us yeah off a base a little bit

02:02:33.580 but so let's get back um so there was the doxing going on yep so they did some people tag some

02:02:39.800 stuff and also during that time we had a base member who went out in canada he was canadian

02:02:46.680 and he went and put flyers up to try to recruit and then somebody answered the recruitment they

02:02:52.220 had to go through the emails like i did they had to go through a uh interview panel like i did uh

02:02:58.240 on audio on wire and then they went and had the face-to-face meet so this guy that got recruited

02:03:04.040 one of our members who ended up being called punish snake his name is pat matthews punish snake

02:03:09.280 Yeah, so Pat Matthews, he changed his name several times.

02:03:13.380 But he was, I think it's the Canadian version of our National Guard kind of,

02:03:17.000 but he was being trained.

02:03:17.720 He was a military.

02:03:18.600 He was being trained, and he's the guy.

02:03:23.420 So we get a new member coming in. 0.93

02:03:25.560 Hey, welcome, new member, blah, blah, blah, from Canada.

02:03:28.320 I think his name was Mark or something.

02:03:30.960 And he's in the main chat group for about a week, maybe two weeks.

02:03:36.340 I don't think, definitely, I don't think it was more than two weeks.

02:03:37.920 And are you in this chat group every day, kind of?

02:03:39.620 Yeah, imagine if I wasn't.

02:03:41.860 So I work my job as an FBI agent.

02:03:43.700 I go home.

02:03:44.480 I might have dinner with my family, and then I'm back out on the porch, you know, answering stuff.

02:03:48.440 Or I'm checking in during the day.

02:03:49.920 Right.

02:03:50.320 But they also knew I was a—

02:03:51.800 What's up, fellas?

02:03:52.460 Everybody still racist or whatever? 1.00

02:03:53.840 Like shit like that? 1.00

02:03:54.440 You want to go commit some hate crimes? 1.00

02:03:57.720 But so this Canadian, he meets this guy.

02:04:01.740 This guy gets into the group, and after about a week or so, he comes out.

02:04:05.500 and it turns out that it was a journalist for a paper.

02:04:09.260 He's gay? 0.88

02:04:09.720 No, no.

02:04:11.180 I guess these days that's probably what the people are thinking.

02:04:15.020 He was a journalist for a newspaper up there.

02:04:19.080 He went and met Pat on his own, and after about a week or two,

02:04:22.440 they were like, hey, this is too deep.

02:04:23.920 You pull the chocks, write it.

02:04:25.620 So this article comes out, and it's basically doxing Pat.

02:04:31.520 So Pat, the RM's Royal Canadian Mounted Police RCMP comes to his house, takes his guns.

02:04:40.620 He's booted from the military thing.

02:04:42.120 His parents now hate him.

02:04:43.140 I think he lost his job.

02:04:44.600 And all of a sudden, he disappears.

02:04:46.540 Wow.

02:04:46.760 His truck is found at the border, the border of Canada and the United States.

02:04:51.360 So we're pretty sure he's here, but we don't know where.

02:04:54.340 Right.

02:04:55.740 Eventually, we find him.

02:04:57.040 And he ended up being down at my cell.

02:04:58.820 He was renting out one of the horse stalls under the barn,

02:05:02.660 under the residence on that 100-acre property.

02:05:05.640 So I got to go.

02:05:06.180 And he was sleeping there?

02:05:06.740 Yeah.

02:05:06.960 So I got to go spend a lot of time down there training,

02:05:10.400 and it just got crazier and crazier, man.

02:05:12.300 It was like.

02:05:13.180 And what kind of stuff were they saying or like how crazy?

02:05:16.840 Everything's preparing for the boogaloo, building your kit.

02:05:21.100 I mean, a lot of these kids didn't even have, I say kids.

02:05:23.460 I mean, I was 48.

02:05:24.860 I lied and said I was 44 at the time

02:05:26.680 because literally there was like one other 40-something.

02:05:31.900 Nazaro was 40-something.

02:05:33.260 So the leader was 40-something.

02:05:34.440 There was one other dude that was in his 40s.

02:05:35.920 There might have been two 30-somethings,

02:05:37.540 and everything else was 20s and teens.

02:05:39.440 Wow.

02:05:40.260 A lot of these kids, they didn't have a job.

02:05:43.940 They didn't have a car.

02:05:44.740 They had to borrow a car to come to the training,

02:05:46.900 but they were wearing cry-precision plate carriers.

02:05:49.400 Same thing the FBI SWAT team wears.

02:05:51.240 Got it.

02:05:51.540 They're building their kit up, their pistols,

02:05:53.880 They're semi-automatic rifles

02:05:56.260 They're ARs or they're AKs

02:05:57.840 And we're coming out and training, man

02:06:00.240 Moving drills

02:06:01.460 And it may not be the best, but

02:06:03.580 Still, I mean, I was looking at a lot of them 0.84

02:06:06.140 Going, holy crap, man 0.85

02:06:07.140 If they wanted to take on some 0.99

02:06:10.100 If they wanted to do something

02:06:11.500 They're probably going to get the drop on a lot of people

02:06:13.560 That's scary, dude

02:06:15.680 It's fascinating to think that that goes on

02:06:18.180 So once we found Pat

02:06:19.960 And we had him locked down

02:06:22.380 So we're like, okay, we feel like we're in control of the situation because we were finding out more and more stuff.

02:06:27.520 Are they plotting something or they're not?

02:06:29.080 There was inklings of things being whispered and said, and we're, as a case team and an undercover, all the case teams.

02:06:33.900 I mean, at one point, we had 100 people on a call once a month.

02:06:36.460 That's how many case teams there were in the United States working this stuff.

02:06:41.220 And it was just kind of like, did they mean that?

02:06:44.380 Did they not mean that?

02:06:45.300 You're trying to find out.

02:06:46.240 Are you going to do something bad or are you not?

02:06:48.120 Yeah. 0.94

02:06:48.280 Are you just talking trash, First Amendment protected, and then you're waiting for the D-Day, and then it's purge, you know?

02:06:57.120 So we get this all started because you asked about the sacrifice thing.

02:07:00.960 So a lot of these guys believed in the Norse pantheon. 0.88

02:07:07.760 So they were claiming pagan, but they're white supremacists.

02:07:10.980 They're not true pagans. 0.68

02:07:11.940 Got it. 0.99

02:07:12.360 They're white supremacists. 0.98

02:07:13.860 And we've already had a couple of blots, B-L-O-T, that is the ceremony. 0.94

02:07:18.280 the worship ceremony um did you ever go to those yeah yeah yeah and i'd already been cool well i

02:07:24.140 mean i had to participate i had to mirror so i would pray to a god there were some that we had

02:07:28.540 that had some people leading it that was uh really uh they were some of them were actually

02:07:33.660 priests in the asatru family just doing what side jobs or whatever no no no i'm just meaning they've

02:07:41.120 they've obtained the rank to basically be a preacher they are they're a priest and they can

02:07:46.000 run a block um so i'd attended some and it might be in the middle of the summer and you go down

02:07:50.740 there and you paint runes on your chest and we do the whole ceremony and they'd be like a take

02:07:57.160 like a piece of wood and carve carve uh some runes in it which were pagan are you nes yeah yeah yeah

02:08:04.460 and then it would be uh then but then there would be like swastikas and white supremacy stuff on

02:08:09.180 there too and then you would you would you would you would cut yourself and bleed on the wood 0.73

02:08:14.480 and then we set the wood on fire

02:08:16.520 and pray to our gods

02:08:17.960 until the wood stopped burning.

02:08:20.720 So I was getting in closer.

02:08:23.520 And then it was just going so fast, Theo.

02:08:27.460 I'll tell you.

02:08:28.040 Did you ever wake up believing it?

02:08:30.540 No.

02:08:31.560 No, not this, no.

02:08:32.820 I mean, some of these cats were cats.

02:08:35.980 Some of these guys were saying

02:08:37.000 that Hitler's still alive in Hollywood 0.78

02:08:38.600 and he's hanging out with 15-foot giant white dudes 0.97

02:08:42.660 with red beards

02:08:43.420 and they're just waiting to come back, and I'm like, for what?

02:08:46.360 Yeah, that's crazy.

02:08:47.020 I mean, come on back.

02:08:48.060 If you're saying we need to fight right now, what's Hitler waiting on?

02:08:50.700 Yeah, what are they milling around for?

02:08:51.760 Yeah, come on, you know.

02:08:53.120 Yeah, unless he's waiting for NIL money or whatever.

02:08:56.180 Yeah, exactly.

02:08:57.540 I'm switching teams.

02:08:58.940 Somebody give him a deal, probably.

02:09:01.760 But so we get to this point, and it's Halloween of 2019,

02:09:06.400 and we're going to have basically what people refer to as a hate camp.

02:09:09.920 We're going to be there training and training.

02:09:11.340 I did some hand-to-hand combat training there we'd already started doing firearms but that

02:09:16.100 that Halloween night was a Thursday night and uh in 2019 so we have a few drinks I go back to my uh

02:09:26.100 I go back to my truck I'm actually charging my phone up because the battery's dying you know

02:09:30.280 how it is when you go from like sleet ice freezing cold and you hop in that warm vehicle and you kind

02:09:35.520 just defrost and then you nod off a little bit i nodded off a little bit um and i wake up to the

02:09:42.100 pounding on my door because i was already pale horse by this time um i switched my code name

02:09:46.900 um and and they were like pale horse pale horse wake up wake up i'm like what's going on they're

02:09:52.040 like you gotta see this you're not gonna believe it i come out they go hey remember us talking

02:09:56.180 about sacrificing uh a goat and i'm like vaguely and they're like we got one and i'm like oh they

02:10:04.780 went i mean not far down the road yeah to a guy who had three and turns out that he came out because

02:10:11.080 he heard them they were armed they had their fleck tarn camo on with the balaclavas over

02:10:15.940 their face i mean it's a wonder nobody can get shot right there but they still a goat or a ram

02:10:20.900 i don't know that i mean i've asked people the difference it was big it had horns i don't know

02:10:24.880 if it was a goat or a ram but they uh i walk up and they're like uh had it in the back of the truck

02:10:32.400 and one of the members who went by Dima. 0.95

02:10:36.660 Dima says, man, this goat's shitting all over the truck. 0.99

02:10:40.080 And I said, well, hell, I would be too 1.00

02:10:41.380 if a bunch of Neanderthals with Fleck Tarn and Balaclavas 0.99

02:10:43.720 just jerked me out of the backyard at gunpoint. 0.94

02:10:45.680 I'm like, daggum, you know?

02:10:47.940 And then Eisen was going to be running the blot on this one.

02:10:51.720 And I see him over there, and he's petting the goat.

02:10:53.660 And he's like, it looks like he's showing it love and stuff.

02:10:55.800 And I walked up, and I said, hey, man,

02:10:57.520 is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat?

02:10:59.200 He says, hey, pale horse, don't let her hear the goat.

02:11:01.780 Eisen was the guy's name?

02:11:02.820 Yeah, it was his codename.

02:11:04.660 His real name was William Bilbrough.

02:11:06.240 Oh, I was going to say, because Eisen sounds like a Jewish name.

02:11:08.680 It seems like a weird name to handle that.

02:11:10.460 I think it was actually a rune.

02:11:13.360 I can't remember what Eisen stands for.

02:11:14.860 But anyway.

02:11:15.920 Eisen is German and Ashkenazi Jewish, surname meaning iron. 0.51

02:11:19.460 There you go, Eisen. 0.74

02:11:20.580 Okay, go on, sorry.

02:11:21.620 So I didn't know that.

02:11:22.840 See, I should have looked that up.

02:11:24.280 I spent seven months with a guy. 1.00

02:11:26.600 Well, shit. 1.00

02:11:27.480 But I'd be like, oh, iron. 1.00

02:11:29.840 I got it.

02:11:30.280 so he says hey don't let the goat hear you say that and I'm like okay he's like this goat we're

02:11:37.240 showing this goat love we're going to sacrifice it to start the wild hunt and it's going to Valhalla

02:11:41.860 it's going to be with Odin tonight this is a good thing for the goat no negative energy basically

02:11:46.000 and don't let the other people hear you with negative energy I said got it push that beach

02:11:49.820 ball down never think of it again you know underwater it's gonna push it down so I walk

02:11:56.100 over to uh oh let me say this the wild hunt in norse mythology is essentially odin and other

02:12:04.040 gods going out in the middle of the night and laying the smack down to all their enemies okay

02:12:07.620 but in the version of the white supremacy he's saying that this sacrifice is going to start the 0.96

02:12:12.480 wild hunt for us to cleanse the world of darkness so if you're anti-fash and you are uh non-white

02:12:20.000 when Boogaloo happens

02:12:22.580 what they were saying is

02:12:24.340 if you were not fascist you were automatically 0.88

02:12:26.980 anti-fascist and the penalty is death

02:12:28.700 I mean these dudes would talk about 0.99

02:12:30.880 shooting their own dads 0.99

02:12:31.920 like I'd have to kill my dad if he doesn't 1.00

02:12:34.640 switch to be fascist 1.00

02:12:37.100 I'm going to have to kill my dad 1.00

02:12:38.500 and then one would be like I'd cry myself to sleep 1.00

02:12:40.880 if I did and another would be like well I could never

02:12:42.860 kill my parents so you guys are way ahead of me

02:12:44.900 so you're hearing all this 1.00

02:12:46.840 crazy stuff and you're hearing Pat

02:12:48.940 down under the barn saying, I'm a ghost.

02:12:52.860 My life is over.

02:12:54.120 I don't exist anymore.

02:12:55.360 Because that's the guy that got doxxed.

02:12:57.140 Doxxed out of Canada.

02:12:58.280 And so can't y'all bust the group at this point or no? 0.95

02:13:01.420 We could, but there's, that's the, I'm going to tell you,

02:13:05.260 in my opinion, as a case agent on long-term cases

02:13:07.740 and as an undercover, that's the heart's decision.

02:13:10.300 Got it.

02:13:10.520 To decide when, do we have enough?

02:13:12.420 Or, oh, this new guy just came in.

02:13:14.980 One more buy and we can get, you know, it's tough.

02:13:16.800 Yeah, because at what point are you just like playing house

02:13:18.340 or whatever it almost seems like, or White House.

02:13:19.840 Right, but what would we charge them with

02:13:21.220 other than assisting getting an undocumented alien in right now? 0.75

02:13:24.960 Now, what charges are you going to come up with?

02:13:26.580 Because there's no federal domestic terrorism charge.

02:13:28.800 There are federal international terrorism charges,

02:13:31.380 but there's not for domestic terrorism.

02:13:32.820 Got it.

02:13:33.720 So I'm hearing all this crazy stuff.

02:13:37.040 I mean, we can form, everybody that's been doxxed,

02:13:39.520 we can have like a staging location or a clubhouse somewhere

02:13:43.640 where it's all us and we're all ghosts and we just go out and murder. 0.57

02:13:46.720 I mean, it's talking about laying out like a homeless person, learning the pattern of the lefty journalist, and then just popping them in the back of the head with a .38 one day and just walk off.

02:13:56.420 That's gorilla, that kind of small hit kind of thing.

02:13:59.320 So we've got them, and then we get to that Halloween weekend.

02:14:03.360 So they tell me they got the goat, and I go to my listening device, and I'm like, hey, talking to the case, and I'm like, if you can hear me, I'm pretty sure we're going to go down here and slaughter this animal.

02:14:13.480 I'm racking my brain trying to think if there's anything

02:14:16.320 I'm definitely not seeing anything

02:14:18.360 federal in my head

02:14:19.260 and I basically just tossed it to them

02:14:22.280 do you want me to shut this thing

02:14:24.280 down or do you want me to just drive off

02:14:25.820 come up with a ruse and kind of drive off

02:14:27.900 I said if you want me to you need to let me know

02:14:30.300 and I waited and I stared

02:14:32.080 at my device and I waited

02:14:33.900 and I waited for my phone to ring

02:14:35.600 waited nothing and I went

02:14:37.940 okay I guess I'm heading down in the woods

02:14:39.860 so we head down

02:14:41.300 we carry the goat down

02:14:43.100 there's probably

02:14:43.560 about 12 of us

02:14:44.360 there

02:14:44.740 and

02:14:45.500 Is the goat

02:14:47.380 sleeping or it's loud

02:14:48.260 no no

02:14:48.840 we're walking it down

02:14:49.680 you know

02:14:50.680 so we get down there

02:14:52.220 and 1.00

02:14:52.600 he's doing goat shit 1.00

02:14:53.820 yeah doing goat shit 1.00

02:14:54.600 so we get down there 0.99

02:14:55.920 to what was referred

02:14:56.560 to as a holy spot

02:14:57.420 the torches are lit

02:14:58.540 Isen leads the block

02:15:00.320 talks about

02:15:01.520 hey we're gonna

02:15:02.480 sacrifice this goat 0.96

02:15:04.160 to Odin 0.98

02:15:04.660 it's gonna go be 0.91

02:15:05.740 with the elves

02:15:06.260 and everything

02:15:06.820 and is he

02:15:07.360 is it pretty organized

02:15:08.480 or is the guy

02:15:08.960 like reading notes

02:15:09.660 off of his phone

02:15:10.380 No, he wasn't the best.

02:15:12.000 Now, the other guy I told you about when we were in the summer,

02:15:15.580 I think he was a legit Esau-True priest.

02:15:18.740 I mean, it was led very well.

02:15:21.700 This one was a little choppy, you know?

02:15:23.160 Yeah, that's crazy.

02:15:25.340 God dang.

02:15:26.700 But they're believing it. 1.00

02:15:27.600 This is fucking crazy. 1.00

02:15:27.940 They're believing it, right? 0.99

02:15:29.040 So then he has like a, it's bigger than a machete,

02:15:32.500 but it's not quite a sword from what I remember.

02:15:35.900 We're all around the goat.

02:15:37.040 He's already given the whole speech about the wild hunt, 1.00

02:15:39.020 and we're going to start killing all. 1.00

02:15:40.380 anti-fashion and non-whites um because if everybody's white that'll definitely save that 1.00

02:15:47.500 that'll solve the problem no it won't no it won't you know it's still gonna be fighting

02:15:52.520 yeah gonna be cheating yeah what are we talking about here but uh so i end up we're all in a

02:15:59.300 circle around the goat and somehow i ended up at the back legs and he's already given the speech

02:16:04.100 and now he's got this blade and he's he's like he's bringing it back with his hands and he's

02:16:08.760 coming down practice swing practice swing taking a breath you can hear somebody say just do it you

02:16:14.080 know and he comes down i'm holding the back of that guy he comes down with everything he's got

02:16:18.160 and all i heard was thunk i don't think it broke a single hair i don't know if the blade was dull

02:16:25.060 or the back strap of the goat was so strong and for that second i was like in that split second

02:16:29.960 in my mind i'm like oh this is gonna be bad this is gonna get bloody um because i'm holding it and

02:16:35.220 Yeah, and then you hear, it may take two swings.

02:16:37.620 Do it again.

02:16:38.500 You're all just yelling.

02:16:39.880 And then somebody says, has anybody got a gun?

02:16:42.560 I think it was pestilence.

02:16:43.400 Does anybody have a pistol? 1.00

02:16:45.480 Fucking pestilence. 0.99

02:16:46.280 The rule was is we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down there, 0.99

02:16:49.120 but the one guy, Zoom Nat, says, I got mine.

02:16:53.120 I mean, me and Luke, TMB, both were looking at it going,

02:16:56.160 this is like the least qualified guy to be holding a weapon.

02:16:59.220 This dude's been up for like two days straight on Adderall.

02:17:02.320 He worked third shift in Austin, Texas

02:17:03.980 and drove straight to Rome, Georgia.

02:17:05.720 Nuh-uh.

02:17:06.400 And I'm like, and not coordinated.

02:17:08.580 I mean, guns, I was like, oh, my goodness, man.

02:17:11.060 You're the last person down here. 0.56

02:17:12.520 What the heck, dude? 0.93

02:17:13.420 So he hands the pistol over. 0.90

02:17:15.780 Luke takes it from him.

02:17:16.640 This is like Assassin's Creed.

02:17:18.140 Oh, yeah, yeah.

02:17:18.900 So he takes the weapon, hands it to Eisen.

02:17:22.240 Eisen chambers around, kind of points towards the goat,

02:17:25.220 and then turns completely away to pull the trigger.

02:17:27.940 And that's when the instructor in me, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

02:17:30.840 Yeah.

02:17:31.340 He's like, what?

02:17:32.000 And I go, man, look at what you're shooting at, bro.

02:17:33.900 We're all in a circle on our knees, man.

02:17:36.400 He's like, oh, okay.

02:17:38.280 I know, man.

02:17:39.000 I feel like this is a Larry David sketch, dude.

02:17:41.900 I mean, part of you in the comical side, you're like,

02:17:44.240 I'll let him go ahead and shoot.

02:17:45.280 I'm over here. 0.98

02:17:45.980 You know, he's aiming that way.

02:17:47.480 Let's see who he takes out, you know.

02:17:50.180 But, yeah, so he puts one right in his head,

02:17:52.640 and then it goes down, and it twitches for a while.

02:17:55.200 And I coax him to, I said, man, why don't you go ahead

02:17:57.580 and put another round in it?

02:17:58.460 Because it was debatable.

02:17:59.580 Is it after death twitches, or is it still alive?

02:18:01.940 I said, just go ahead and put it.

02:18:03.020 I said, for the sake of the goat, because you want it to show up happy, right?

02:18:06.740 It's going, I mean, it's a good thing.

02:18:09.600 I'm using his words against it.

02:18:10.920 Right, for sure.

02:18:11.380 Let it get there quick.

02:18:12.100 Yeah, I mean, you know, I thought, so he did it,

02:18:14.780 and then you could hear somebody say, now it's definitely dead.

02:18:17.060 Oh, are we done?

02:18:17.800 No.

02:18:18.520 Now they slice the throat of the goat, fill up a cup full of blood.

02:18:22.100 Nuh-uh.

02:18:22.680 Yeah, and we're all in a circle.

02:18:24.760 And is it warm out or cold out?

02:18:26.500 It is chill.

02:18:27.500 It's cold.

02:18:28.060 Oh, it's better.

02:18:28.540 It's cold, yeah.

02:18:29.100 it's cold because it the whatever happened that halloween in 2019 it had been like 60s or 70s

02:18:35.960 and that day a cold front came it dropped to like 10 so we're down there and uh he um

02:18:42.540 they slice it they fill the cup up with blood everybody's still in the circle except me i'm

02:18:48.340 holding the flashlight because eisen decided to bring acid to help with the spiritual journey

02:18:54.300 lsd yeah yeah had the sheet had a sheet so y'all took a hit or what no i didn't um and that was

02:19:02.380 funny because they were like one of the guys was like hey i'm a i'm a how do we worded it i'm a

02:19:06.940 very experienced highly experienced psychedelic or something i'm a professional psychedelic because

02:19:11.780 we think you'd really like this pill horse i said let me tell you something you have no idea what's

02:19:15.740 in my brain you have no idea what i've done on this planet in my lifetime i don't do that stuff

02:19:21.620 somebody slips one on me and I go

02:19:24.400 on a bad trip, every single one of you

02:19:26.280 are going with me. Damn. You know, that's the only one 1.00

02:19:28.340 I got to do. That's a good call. Yes, I'm going to

02:19:30.300 use that. And then one guy was like, he was

02:19:32.340 like, yeah, don't do it. Don't put nothing in Pell Horse's 0.97

02:19:34.360 drink. But I went around and I was shining

02:19:36.400 and he would tear a tab, put it under your tongue,

02:19:38.800 chase it with the blood. Now you're

02:19:40.360 signifying the sacrifice.

02:19:42.700 We're closing the deal here. Yeah, now you're a sick 1.00

02:19:44.400 app. Yeah, so now it gets to me 0.99

02:19:46.220 and I'm one of the last ones. Well, by the time

02:19:48.500 it gets to me, Theo, I look down and it is

02:19:50.460 clotted it is chunky and i'm looking at it going man i really don't want to drink this man you know

02:19:56.000 i'm like but i think pestilence or i don't know if he said it or i thought of it but i just stuck

02:20:04.100 two fingers deep into the blood pulled out my fingers and sucked the blood off my fingers 0.81

02:20:08.420 damn and uh and luckily i carried a beer down there and i chased it with that what kind of 0.97

02:20:13.680 beer was it uh that night it might have been bud light before the controversy yeah oh i think no 0.99

02:20:21.340 it's uh i think it was a bud light but uh i uh if it wasn't a bud light it was a yingling lager 0.98

02:20:26.800 which is what i like yeah that's nice um damn brothers y'all down there eating blood and 0.99

02:20:33.400 freaking doing lsd i mean what in the fuck is going on i know right so we're supposed to get 0.99

02:20:37.420 up the next day and train no training was shot what because only like only like two or three 0.97

02:20:42.760 people didn't do acid and everybody else was up all night staring at a fire i don't even know what 0.97

02:20:47.040 y'all are training for this feels like the new york jets kind of dude i'm like what the fuck is 0.75

02:20:50.820 going so they're like we're not going to go handle weapons and be running across fields yeah because 0.96

02:20:55.220 they've been up all night and they were hot and i'm like great you just shot an entire day of

02:20:58.820 training you know um but i went to go get biscuits for everybody i went to the bojangles oh they're

02:21:04.980 good i just had one the other day actually apparently in rome georgia bojangles is where

02:21:09.400 it's at because cars will be backed all the way down downtown i mean down the main street directly

02:21:15.820 across the street from bojangles with mcdonald's there were no cars in it but i went and i picked

02:21:19.820 up about 30 bacon egg and cheese biscuits so i'm coming back and all i can smell is that butter

02:21:25.180 that bacon that cheese and them eggs that biscuit god i go to get out of my truck

02:21:29.680 punished snake says pale horse you got to try this goat it is good he's been holding that

02:21:35.920 raw goat over a fire it was not prepared at all i've had some gamey stuff in my life that was the 0.90

02:21:42.960 gamiest tasting meat i ever put in my daggone mouth yeah and as soon as i started biting it

02:21:47.100 after smelling the butter and the soon as i bit into it man i was like oh i was like that's not 0.95

02:21:52.020 too bad as soon as he turned his head i tossed it to the farm dogs i was like yeah dude i've had

02:21:56.900 bad meat on some lsd and that's you never forget that you never forget that amy yeah i mean i've 0.99

02:22:04.020 I've eaten undercooked duck on LSD, and I never forget that shit. 0.97

02:22:08.560 Sometimes I still floss my teeth years later even just to get the – 0.99

02:22:11.960 I feel like some of it's still in there.

02:22:13.880 So after the sacrifice, they chopped the head of the goat off

02:22:17.800 and we carried it around.

02:22:18.800 What the hell is going on, dude?

02:22:21.060 We took a picture because the recruitment process was this.

02:22:26.740 Whatever video, whatever new recruitment video we're doing

02:22:29.460 has to be better than the last one.

02:22:31.080 Got it.

02:22:31.400 Every time the base got infiltrated by either a journalist or whatever,

02:22:35.460 their offset got better and better.

02:22:37.420 How did that happen?

02:22:38.580 How did we get infiltrated?

02:22:39.680 How did we stop it from happening again?

02:22:41.940 So Saturday night comes.

02:22:43.760 Saturday comes.

02:22:44.440 Now we can start training again.

02:22:45.620 So we're out there shooting and running and stuff,

02:22:47.880 and now it's warming back up.

02:22:49.680 And we go down Saturday night to the Holy Spot and build a bonfire.

02:22:56.380 We burn American flags.

02:22:58.260 There it is.

02:22:59.920 Now, here's the thing.

02:23:00.960 He nicknamed that goat Gar.

02:23:03.840 His name is William Garfield Bilbro.

02:23:06.780 His grandfather's name is Garfield, so he named the goat Gar.

02:23:10.440 So everybody talked about Gar after that.

02:23:12.880 I am back row two left from the flag.

02:23:17.780 You can see my neck.

02:23:18.960 Oh, there you go.

02:23:19.540 Yeah, that's me right there.

02:23:21.020 Showing a little neck, huh?

02:23:22.020 A little neck.

02:23:22.640 Well, yeah, the balaclava didn't go all the way down.

02:23:25.140 Dang.

02:23:25.660 Somebody should have caught that and been like, 0.99

02:23:27.500 pal horse, your neck's chilling. 0.87

02:23:28.680 You bought that baby clava with you, bro.

02:23:30.400 No, they give it to you.

02:23:31.400 That's part of your initiation.

02:23:33.000 When you made it in, they gave me the balaclava and the three runes.

02:23:36.480 That smalaclava they gave you, bro. 0.98

02:23:38.620 That's a little smal for you. 0.98

02:23:40.160 I got a horse head. 0.98

02:23:42.460 Oh, yeah. 0.94

02:23:43.360 So then we go down and we burn American flags and we burn Holy Bibles. 0.95

02:23:48.440 And I remember coming back after that weekend, 0.94

02:23:52.560 and I remember just feeling kind of dirty.

02:23:54.520 I mean, maybe that's because I'd been up for four days or whatever.

02:23:56.900 I don't know, the rain and on and on.

02:23:58.360 but just the act

02:24:00.060 and just the feeling

02:24:01.120 of that

02:24:01.420 I was like man

02:24:02.040 I just feel weird

02:24:04.380 yeah your spirit

02:24:05.140 yeah because I'm like

02:24:06.200 yeah that's it

02:24:07.080 because I'm like man

02:24:08.480 I come back to the office

02:24:10.140 and I go

02:24:10.460 I've been working undercover

02:24:11.300 since 1996

02:24:12.260 off and on

02:24:13.080 started street level narcotics

02:24:15.060 I said I have never

02:24:16.540 had to burn

02:24:17.780 American flags

02:24:19.060 I've never had to burn

02:24:20.180 holy bibles

02:24:20.840 and I definitely

02:24:21.940 wasn't with a group of people

02:24:23.120 that went and stole a goat

02:24:23.960 sacrificed 0.55

02:24:24.640 and we drank his blood

02:24:25.640 at a ritual

02:24:26.760 you know

02:24:27.260 because even though

02:24:28.320 they're saying pagans some of those dudes are praying to satan some of those dudes are playing

02:24:31.700 to like order of nine angles where it's a lot more satanic um and uh yeah it's but that weekend

02:24:40.020 i guess i had passed the benchmark of trust because that saturday night after everybody's

02:24:46.360 going to bed it's me pestilence and tmb and i kind of asked him a question i go you know a while back

02:24:52.620 of course i know what i'm asking about because we're trying to figure out what it is but

02:24:55.620 a recording that I'd gotten of the case teams and myself.

02:24:59.720 We were trying to figure out what they meant,

02:25:01.380 and I kind of circled back on that,

02:25:03.720 and I said, what were we talking about there?

02:25:06.280 And they kind of whisper, and I hear pestilence say,

02:25:08.660 yeah, I think we can trust him.

02:25:10.000 So, hey, phone and airplane mode, cool.

02:25:12.460 And we start talking, and they start telling me about

02:25:14.780 that they're talking about wanting to do bigger things.

02:25:19.020 They didn't necessarily say we were going to kill people yet,

02:25:23.280 But definitely enough to lead us to believe that we need to stay in this longer

02:25:27.520 because we've got to figure out what they're talking about.

02:25:29.420 Yeah.

02:25:29.980 Right?

02:25:30.360 So let's just fast forward.

02:25:32.840 Fast forward, because this was a fast-paced case.

02:25:36.520 It was only seven months long, but I'm telling you,

02:25:38.300 it was like no sleep for seven months, you know?

02:25:40.360 Yeah.

02:25:41.800 And just running and gunning.

02:25:44.240 So what I find out is the Georgia cell has identified a couple,

02:25:51.180 a couple of counties over in Georgia

02:25:53.260 that they believed were active members

02:25:55.960 of Atlanta Antifa

02:25:57.760 and anti-fascists, right? 0.96

02:26:00.940 So they wanted to murder them. 0.98

02:26:03.960 And so when you find out

02:26:05.280 that somebody's getting ready,

02:26:06.080 we're like, man,

02:26:07.220 what is it that they were supposed to do?

02:26:08.580 And I'm like,

02:26:09.940 Luke would never answer me on the phone.

02:26:11.820 He would just giggle.

02:26:12.780 And he goes, look,

02:26:13.400 I'll tell you to your face.

02:26:14.460 I'm just going to do it on the phone.

02:26:15.460 I said, you know what?

02:26:16.040 I'm cruising through there tomorrow.

02:26:17.240 I wasn't, obviously.

02:26:18.300 I'm like, I called the case team.

02:26:19.600 You ready to go to Georgia tomorrow?

02:26:20.700 Are you ready for me tomorrow?

02:26:21.660 Yes.

02:26:21.980 So I go down, wake him up.

02:26:23.700 I'm like, okay, you know, I like to joke.

02:26:26.340 I like to have fun.

02:26:27.440 But when it's time to do business, I'm serious.

02:26:29.800 I said, so what the F are we doing?

02:26:31.520 Because he wouldn't tell me.

02:26:32.440 They called us.

02:26:33.200 They sent out a thing like, hey, training this.

02:26:36.040 We're going on a camping trip, blah, blah, blah.

02:26:37.860 It looked like he was talking about going out and putting up stickers, posters, flyers.

02:26:42.420 But then he said, make sure you bring your weapons.

02:26:44.840 And then we were all like, what does he mean?

02:26:46.280 What would be going on?

02:26:47.700 So when I met him that day, I said, when I said, what the F are we doing?

02:26:52.440 He says, essentially, we're going to whack some people.

02:26:55.120 And I said, well, that's way different than putting up stickers.

02:26:57.460 And it's something I definitely would not want to drive my personal truck to.

02:27:00.460 That's why I'm asking you, what are we doing?

02:27:02.400 Do I need to bring something that doesn't come back to me kind of thing?

02:27:05.000 Get a rental or whatever.

02:27:05.720 Yeah, so he says, he starts laying it out.

02:27:09.760 But now I'm thinking, because the case team's thinking this too, we've got to slow this down.

02:27:14.840 We've got to slow this down.

02:27:16.260 Because if we wouldn't have found out, I would have been finding out at a camp on a Friday night.

02:27:23.180 And how am I letting my cover team know?

02:27:25.240 You know what I mean?

02:27:26.160 Yeah, you got to hurt you.

02:27:27.620 Yeah, I pointed out to him.

02:27:29.000 Because you need some space for everybody to figure things out.

02:27:30.900 So you got to slow it down.

02:27:31.480 Well, hopefully, yeah.

02:27:32.140 So I'm like, I told him, I mean, sometimes the case doesn't allow for that.

02:27:37.500 You got to take it down right then and there.

02:27:38.960 For sure.

02:27:39.320 But I pointed out to him how little planning he had put into this murder he's talking about

02:27:47.120 because the planning he drafted on putting up flyers was, like, insanely operational security.

02:27:52.960 I'm like, what's the biggest?

02:27:54.140 I'm just tired of waiting.

02:27:55.660 And I said, look, I played a—

02:27:58.520 And did he send you a JPEG of it, or did he just draw it on something?

02:28:02.080 No, he was just telling me.

02:28:03.380 Okay, so then no drawing of it.

02:28:04.680 Yeah, nothing. 0.96

02:28:05.440 Oh, you've got to at least damn draw it up. 0.98

02:28:07.000 So, well, and that's what I told him. 0.98

02:28:08.520 I was portraying a site survey specialist, and I said, dude, this is what I do.

02:28:13.560 I said, I can go in and pull demographics, homes, schools, crime rates, everything.

02:28:18.100 And I said, let me find out what's all at this house.

02:28:20.820 I mean, have you even been by it?

02:28:21.760 He said, no.

02:28:22.680 So we start building that.

02:28:24.020 I come in with fake plates.

02:28:25.300 I say, I just took these off of a car in Florida.

02:28:27.420 Throw those on.

02:28:28.220 We go by.

02:28:28.920 We case the place.

02:28:30.300 I'm not leaving it.

02:28:31.220 They're leaving it, right?

02:28:32.100 um and meanwhile punished snake has now gone back to the maryland cell he's up there with a guy that

02:28:40.640 goes by can't go back can't go back was the only one that i really knew in our proximity that

02:28:46.060 actually had a job too he was a truck driver and he had a six thousand dollar thermal scope on the

02:28:51.480 6.5 creedmoor and they were talking about now they they're up there they're plotting

02:28:56.180 the kickoff of the boogaloo because there was going to be a second amendment gun right gun

02:29:01.000 uh second amendment rally for gun rights in virginia in 2020 january of 2020 and they thought

02:29:08.880 okay you're gonna have antifa you're gonna have three percenters militia types anti-government

02:29:13.480 types you're gonna have law enforcement what if we start popping rounds into the crowd from our

02:29:17.660 sniper rifles and then nobody knows who's shooting each other and they start shooting each other

02:29:21.780 what if that's the kickoff to the boogaloo i know it's not a lot of forethought or a lot of

02:29:26.760 afterthought but this is what you're dealing with right and i'll say this that's a good plan yeah

02:29:32.900 for what they're trying to do yeah create chaos it's like when you tap somebody on the shoulder

02:29:37.960 over here and you're standing over yeah exactly you know which dude victor wimbignani you know

02:29:42.260 who that is basketball guy oh yeah yeah tall scabber imagine if he does that to people all

02:29:47.000 the time where he would like tap somebody way over there yeah and nobody knows and he's three

02:29:51.460 people over dude yeah imagine in kindergarten or whatever he must have been able to have the most

02:29:55.760 fun anyway back into the story so yeah that's absolutely insane so then we start casing that

02:30:00.840 but meanwhile we're finding out more stuff on this these the cell up in maryland and what the

02:30:06.000 baltimore division does is they do a title three wiretap and they put cameras in that apartment

02:30:11.400 if i thought if if what i thought they were talking about was crazy face to face the stuff

02:30:19.360 that they were sending me that they were saying in that apartment was just them two going i'm like 0.58

02:30:22.800 holy crap they're talking about breaking out the saints and what they refer to the saints is your 0.97

02:30:27.260 white supremacy mass shooters the charleston guy the new zealand guy the uh the norway guy i'm not 0.99

02:30:34.920 saying their names prefer on a purpose right but they have like they actually have a scoreboard

02:30:38.780 and it says the scoreboard and it's got the mass shooters the white supremacists 77 and 0 that's the

02:30:44.260 uh that's the norway guy um i think it's 55 and 0 is new zealand you go all the way down pittsburgh

02:30:49.560 seven and oh nine for charleston and it says what when will you make the leaderboard wow you know

02:30:55.160 these are the stars yeah so on the anniversary of those mass murders they'll say happy saint

02:31:00.600 right well if it were me it'd be happy saint pain day you know um and it's just crazy so but again

02:31:08.240 are you just talking trash are you going to go do something right so now we're diving down to the

02:31:12.480 end of this case and we're on the time we're on we're trying to make sure everything gets together 0.92

02:31:17.780 and I'm running nonstop I go to Baltimore I drive up and shoot all day with the the Maryland crew

02:31:24.540 trying to tighten things up make sure we got everything settle for that go down uh to the

02:31:29.560 Georgia crew have cased the place with everybody in the in the I mean you got guys saying like hey

02:31:34.500 are there any kids and another dude saying I don't have a problem shooting a comedy kid you got

02:31:39.540 another dude saying oh I'm perfect I'm an IT I work nine to five I look like a normal citizen

02:31:45.400 but I've been wanting to do this for two years.

02:31:47.920 Can I pop my cherry?

02:31:49.320 I'm like, well, popping your cherry means something to me.

02:31:50.960 What are you talking about? 1.00

02:31:52.060 Oh, he actually wants to put a bullet in one of them's head. 0.99

02:31:54.820 He doesn't want to just be standing guard. 0.99

02:31:57.140 So for this Georgia crew, they had it down to where all four were going to go in.

02:32:01.580 One was going to post in the window.

02:32:04.120 Me, and this is what I was instructed to do,

02:32:06.860 me and TMB were going to go down and murder the family and anything else. 0.99

02:32:11.300 But if they want to put a bullet in too, we'll let them take a shot, 0.99

02:32:13.960 and then Pestilence was going to set the house on fire 0.97

02:32:15.860 and we were going to leave.

02:32:17.920 And that was number one

02:32:19.440 because they had already started forming a list

02:32:21.140 of liberal journalist anchors.

02:32:24.200 And I'm like, I said, you're telling me

02:32:26.120 that you want to start taking out people

02:32:27.620 who are like popular, popular.

02:32:30.180 They go, yeah.

02:32:30.800 And I go, well, it's a good thing

02:32:31.880 we got this family to start

02:32:33.020 and get a little practice run.

02:32:35.180 So you're trying to keep them locked into this

02:32:36.920 so that you guys can take action.

02:32:40.300 Right, and you're looking at overt acts.

02:32:41.680 Okay, so what did you do?

02:32:42.780 so if you want to come back and say oh we were just talking trash no you bought catch bags to

02:32:46.520 put on ar so when you shoot if you have to shoot it catches the brass you don't leave brass

02:32:51.060 uh created a silencer for a gun um other things like uh he told us the way it was going to work

02:32:59.300 is we were going to go to a camp leave all of our digital footprint all media all phones everything

02:33:03.540 there go to a pay by the hour motel scrub all our loose skin off we're going to put on bdus or

02:33:10.120 whatever we're going to tape our pants to our boots tape our gloves to our wrist even this he

02:33:15.680 was instructing even put vaseline on your facial hair so you don't drop anything um and he'd even

02:33:21.640 done enough research to where he had read that this would be luke uh tmb um who was telling me

02:33:27.320 this he had read that um for a lot of people the first time they murder somebody they lose control

02:33:33.120 of their bowels so he was suggesting we wear depends what do you mean diapers yeah diapers

02:33:38.440 oh my god and i looked at him and i said i'll be all right i didn't say i killed anybody i'm just

02:33:43.440 saying i don't need a diaper wow you know i'm like i'll be okay just letting them let it marinate

02:33:47.920 so we were able to pull it all off we came in on a wednesday man yeah yeah we came in on a

02:33:53.320 wednesday started the arrest i picked up luke because we figured that would i mean sneaking

02:34:00.220 up on a hundred acre hold on a second man hold on a second yeah this has gone so fast man i mean

02:34:05.700 it's gone it's taken it's a long story but it's gone so now it's at this crescendo where it's like

02:34:09.940 this kind of so what are you like that day do you like i was running on fumes man i think i had the

02:34:16.920 flu at the time my back was spasming because what i didn't realize yeah well if you're gonna murder 0.54

02:34:21.480 someone i think you damn it's a l5s1 i know you're right yeah so i'm like uh uh i had a lumbar fusion 0.66

02:34:27.080 in 2002 uh after this case in 2020 i found out that my lumbar fusion had broken approximately 0.53

02:34:33.680 three to five years after

02:34:35.640 so they were telling me

02:34:36.980 for like 15 years

02:34:37.740 I was going around

02:34:38.320 with a dislocation

02:34:39.920 I mean

02:34:40.120 a back that's disconnected

02:34:42.280 just a bad hitch

02:34:43.460 or whatever

02:34:43.780 yeah maybe broke

02:34:44.640 there's nothing in

02:34:45.200 there's no cadaver bone

02:34:46.620 there's no disc

02:34:47.340 it's just floating

02:34:48.080 the old floating spine trick

02:34:50.680 that sounds like

02:34:51.300 so you would hear me

02:34:52.640 on the recording

02:34:53.160 and they was like

02:34:53.680 was that

02:34:54.700 you making that sound

02:34:55.620 I said yeah

02:34:56.040 and they go what happened

02:34:56.600 because my back jerked

02:34:57.620 you know I'm walking

02:34:58.300 I'm like

02:34:58.580 I'm walking

02:34:59.140 I go like that

02:35:00.100 you know

02:35:00.380 brother you just

02:35:02.920 you barely keep it together okay so let's get to the end of this story just because uh we should

02:35:08.460 yeah um you guys are driving over there you're driving yeah so i drive you know what y'all's

02:35:14.740 plan is you know what yes yeah because i for me personally i was dealing with swat teams because

02:35:18.980 they were going to let a swat team hit us um so i made sure that they i mean i go and meet them

02:35:23.720 they tell me what they're planning on and as long as i'm okay and i don't disagree with safety stuff

02:35:27.640 being a swat guy myself you know and i'm like okay i looked at it i'm like all these dudes are

02:35:32.000 squared away so i go and pick luke up for lunch but i've already we've already laid out all this

02:35:37.020 stuff to where i'm like hey man we're getting close to this thing he's like yeah i said you

02:35:41.560 know i've been thinking the last thing we need to do is be riding around armed and get put on the

02:35:46.040 radar but the cop stopped us like and he goes you know that's a good idea so when i picked him up

02:35:51.100 that day i said hey you're not packing right he goes no no no i left it inside i said me neither

02:35:55.080 man so i'm getting the information getting the intel that he's not carrying yeah we pull around 0.91

02:36:01.740 i like my truck has a problem i pull over i go i get it i said damn because literally it did

02:36:07.120 happen to my truck uh the calipers froze they got they locked and froze and smoke was going 0.98

02:36:12.600 everywhere i said if that damn caliber is locked again and he's like man that's a i pull over and 0.94

02:36:17.400 i get close to the fence to where he can't get out and then i go around the back of the truck 0.98

02:36:22.040 act like i'm looking and another truck pulls up well it's actually an fbi agent but uh he pulls

02:36:27.020 up and he goes hey man you need any help and i look up and i came up with the whole ruse we 0.88

02:36:30.420 practice it and uh and he says uh hey man you need any help and i look up and i go holy shit

02:36:36.420 what are you doing here now we're acting like we know each other he goes what are you doing here i

02:36:40.000 go man i ain't seen you in forever i didn't know you lived around here i go man this is a nice

02:36:44.640 truck and as i'm walking up to talk to him luke's looking at us and then what he doesn't see is the

02:36:50.120 bearcat which is the military vehicle the SWAT team uses and it's coming over the hill so he's

02:36:55.160 focused on us and i jump into the truck right when they pull up right when i'm jumping into the truck

02:36:59.280 going go go go they're right there they got i mean rifles they're up on the turret don't move and

02:37:04.060 they got him out no issues uh arrest with no nothing wrong and then while that happens and

02:37:10.520 then they go pick up pestilence at his house they pick up helter skelter um who was the pop my cherry

02:37:16.480 guy uh they pick him up at his work he's wilding and then we keep it quiet because thursday morning

02:37:23.620 he's just still more to bust yeah because wednesday that was wednesday thursday morning

02:37:27.720 the washington philadelphia swat team hit bilbro the baltimore swat team hit can't go back and

02:37:34.840 punish snake and then now it starts coming out so now it's friday and i'm still in the group i'm

02:37:40.200 just monitoring and it's friday and i'm now now the arrests are starting to come out like holy

02:37:44.560 crap did you see this did you read this and now the affidavits are starting to pop up and they're

02:37:48.840 like wait it says here that there's a fed that infiltrated this group and they're like who's 0.99

02:37:54.000 the fed in the group and everybody's like has anybody heard from pale horse no no no and it

02:37:57.740 goes on and goes i'm just watching i'm watching somewhere around five o'clock on friday nazaro

02:38:02.900 roman wolf aka roman wolf comes on and goes he says something to the effect of i'm not sure we

02:38:10.120 could have done anything to pick him up because he was one of our best members and then uh and i

02:38:15.820 was like oh he knows it's me because he's going back and i mean i'm sure he keeps recordings of

02:38:19.140 all the interviews he's done and stuff or at least say on this date i did this yeah and uh

02:38:23.600 and they figured it out and i was like oh he's got me uh and and and it says boom you've been

02:38:29.640 removed by roman wolf i screenshotted it and i sent it to all the case teams headquarters

02:38:33.800 everything and i go and i'm out damn but they were talking we had some other coverage in there

02:38:39.940 that people reported and uh um it turns out there was another dude that had infiltrated that group

02:38:45.980 not law enforcement though was doing it helping you know reporting to you know uh i don't know

02:38:51.760 whether it be the guardian something paper yeah bbc something um so we got copies of what the

02:38:59.180 chatter after i got booted and some of my case team printed it for me when i came in it was

02:39:03.740 highlighted up on my desk it says something like was are you saying the fed was the guy with the

02:39:09.880 deep voice on the cause and they're like yeah and they go there's no way dude that's one of the most

02:39:13.680 solid neo-nazis i've ever been around you know and then the other one would be like oh there was

02:39:18.220 something really endearing about him you know and i look at the squad and i'm like see they do love

02:39:23.380 me these are my people you know but yeah yeah and then and then you then you get home and you go

02:39:31.460 now i take a shower yeah how long do you take off after that it depends uh because i used to not

02:39:37.960 take any days off but that ended up being my downfall and uh and then I learned how not to

02:39:44.240 do that to myself so by that time I'm long in the tooth um I could have worked till I was 57 that's

02:39:50.860 the cutoff for the FBI but I was 50 at this point uh or at least I retired at 50. Well you look great

02:39:56.260 man. Yeah so it was like uh you know I was like that one I probably took a week off you know just

02:40:02.800 relax chill called my pastor though especially after that Halloween weekend I was like man I

02:40:06.680 I feel kind of, like you said, my spirit.

02:40:08.520 I was like, I feel kind of dirty, man.

02:40:09.580 You're not praying over me, you know?

02:40:11.480 And did you have a family during this?

02:40:13.400 Yeah.

02:40:13.800 Do you still have a family?

02:40:14.560 Yeah, but I'm going through a divorce.

02:40:16.960 Are you?

02:40:17.400 We didn't make it.

02:40:19.160 Not going to talk about it because it's still going through, but—

02:40:21.900 I'm sorry to hear that for you and your wife.

02:40:23.480 Yeah, we're a statistic now, you know?

02:40:26.200 So kids have grown up and moved out, and then I retired, and yeah.

02:40:32.920 Do you feel like the job had an effect on your marriage?

02:40:37.300 I'm sure because my wife was not law enforcement.

02:40:43.680 This was not her world. 0.96

02:40:46.740 Essentially, I was her world.

02:40:48.580 So she married me, but you married me, yeah, you married the Bureau, too.

02:40:53.600 I mean, you look back, and doing the book, we had to dive back in

02:40:58.480 because I wanted to be transparent.

02:40:59.480 That's the only way I know how to be.

02:41:01.360 But I don't want it to be all cakes and pies.

02:41:03.340 I want to tell you when it was sad, too, and when it was messed up.

02:41:05.740 So even though we were happy at the time we were doing this book,

02:41:09.380 to dive back into times where we weren't happy, that was tough.

02:41:13.340 That was tough, man, to put your mind back when, oh, my gosh, you know,

02:41:16.720 911 hang-up call, cops show up at the house, I got to call my supervisor,

02:41:20.580 you know, whatever, whatever's going on.

02:41:22.440 Me, me, going through, you know, getting stripped in a basement at gunpoint

02:41:26.620 and all this stuff.

02:41:27.300 It's just, yeah, I'm sure.

02:41:29.320 I'm sure it did.

02:41:29.920 Well, I know it did because especially during some of the cases early on

02:41:35.000 when our kids were young, like three and one,

02:41:38.440 just to get rid of her nervous energy, she'd be moving furniture and stuff.

02:41:42.360 So I'd come home and, you know, you walk in the door and trip over something.

02:41:44.700 I'm like, who put the couch here, you know?

02:41:47.080 Really?

02:41:47.680 There's that much anxiety.

02:41:48.960 Yeah, and the way she tells it is that she finally just had to give it up to the Lord

02:41:53.160 because she could worry about me all the time.

02:41:56.500 But I told her, I said, when it's my time, it's my time.

02:41:58.540 I think I'm good

02:41:59.720 at what I do

02:42:00.320 I'm not lackadaisical

02:42:01.540 I've been blessed

02:42:02.780 with this skill set

02:42:04.660 and with this

02:42:05.480 you know

02:42:05.920 whatever

02:42:06.420 I've been blessed

02:42:07.480 with all this

02:42:08.080 so

02:42:08.420 man that would be so

02:42:09.360 it would be tough

02:42:10.200 to take somebody

02:42:11.060 you love every day

02:42:11.860 and just let

02:42:12.480 and know that

02:42:13.220 the whole day

02:42:13.980 there is a risk

02:42:15.120 well welcome to

02:42:15.920 first responder

02:42:16.560 and military

02:42:17.020 yeah

02:42:17.680 thank you for saying that

02:42:19.000 no you're right

02:42:19.540 yeah I mean it's

02:42:21.160 like I said man

02:42:22.320 if you're

02:42:22.720 you think a pitch

02:42:24.640 to hire people

02:42:25.240 is like hey

02:42:25.780 we're real high

02:42:26.360 in suicide

02:42:26.980 substance abuse

02:42:27.860 divorce

02:42:28.320 and dying within five years after retiring.

02:42:30.380 Who wants in?

02:42:33.360 Sign me up.

02:42:34.540 I hate to even laugh at that.

02:42:35.880 I know, but it's like, you know, so we got to get better.

02:42:38.800 And you're seeing a lot more stuff.

02:42:40.460 You're seeing a lot more.

02:42:41.660 I don't know if law enforcement is going to open up about it.

02:42:45.400 They should.

02:42:46.580 But you see a lot of spec ops, former spec ops, former law enforcement,

02:42:50.580 and they're getting these plant-based treatments, you know?

02:42:54.480 Yeah, I can't even imagine.

02:42:55.660 I never thought about the stress that spouses and children must feel with a member of their family being involved in a service, in life-risking service.

02:43:08.480 Yeah, I think there should be more.

02:43:09.860 Actually, my wife was saying it from the jump because in the FBI, we have a psychological unit that was specifically created for undercovers.

02:43:20.380 It's called Safeguard.

02:43:22.020 So if I'm an active undercover, I have to be psychologically assessed, mandatory.

02:43:25.960 Got it.

02:43:27.320 And then we expanded it out, and it's being used to do a lot of things.

02:43:30.040 So if you're an agent or a task force officer and you work innocent images, crimes against children,

02:43:37.360 we get you assessed because it's tough to look at that stuff and see that kind of stuff on a daily basis.

02:43:46.440 Had to take a little bathroom break there, man.

02:43:49.100 That's cool.

02:43:49.460 this is the longest episode we've ever had i think man so thank you for your attention to detail and

02:43:53.980 just taking us down some being a slow talker hey just taking us down some memories of yours man

02:43:59.440 it's nice so i used to listen to a storyteller you know someone share share their story um and

02:44:05.080 share stories from their book and um well i know i know you had mentioned earlier we talked a little

02:44:10.220 bit about the one percenters um and and you had a a pretty famed case with the outlaws can you take

02:44:17.160 me into that? Sure. Again, longest undercover I did, two years. The infiltration, I kind of got,

02:44:28.640 I can't remember again if I got recruited or I saw a canvas, but it was probably just a phone call

02:44:32.360 because as I said, working at the UC school, at the undercover school,

02:44:38.500 if you, in the bureau, if you say, all right, we've got 600 certified undercovers,

02:44:43.320 how many of those undercovers have been the primary undercover on an operation, on one?

02:44:47.160 it's going to dwindle down more than one less than five it's going to dwindle down more than five

02:44:51.940 less than 10 now it's really getting dwindled down if you get to like that 10 and over mark it's

02:44:56.780 generally we all know each other because we all go back to the program we all help out with the

02:45:01.680 school and stuff and and you know who's active and who isn't so somebody reaches out i went up

02:45:06.540 and did the interview uh in massachusetts um in boston and i got the gig um we talked about all

02:45:14.840 kinds of things on like what ways to go in ways to not go in i preferred to go in cold which means

02:45:22.040 i'm not being introduced by source go into go to try to make that bump in other words

02:45:27.540 the outlaws were already predicated they've already got laws are a the outlaw motorcycle club

02:45:32.860 is a one percenter club it's the probably the second largest hell's angels is probably the

02:45:36.920 largest okay but worldwide and that's that's their that's their colors right there they refer

02:45:41.960 They refer to the Skull as Charlie.

02:45:44.440 Okay, the AOA, American Outlaws Association.

02:45:49.140 They started in McCook, Illinois in 1935.

02:45:51.920 The Outlaws MC is the oldest outlaw biker club in the world

02:45:55.460 with 441 chapters located in 43 countries.

02:45:59.300 The club is also the second largest in the world

02:46:02.580 behind the Hells Angels.

02:46:04.540 And what made you, is it still active?

02:46:08.440 Oh yeah, the Outlaws are still going strong.

02:46:10.380 And what made you want to infiltrate them?

02:46:12.720 Well, it's the case team.

02:46:14.500 It's not necessarily me.

02:46:15.700 It's that there's a case team and a task force and state and local law enforcement that have been working up there.

02:46:22.580 And they've got different crimes.

02:46:25.320 They've arrested people.

02:46:26.140 But they're at a point now in their investigation where they feel like they can get an undercover or that's the next step to do.

02:46:32.420 Got it.

02:46:32.620 And the whole group, Outlaws, is not a criminal organization.

02:46:35.080 There was just somebody that was doing crime in it.

02:46:37.060 Correct.

02:46:37.480 Got it.

02:46:37.800 That's the argument.

02:46:38.460 Like I said earlier, somebody's like, we're all one percenters criminals.

02:46:42.260 Like, not necessarily, but it's kind of the point of being a one percenter.

02:46:45.700 You know what I mean? 0.99

02:46:46.440 But like all bikers, you know, I've heard them say, or not all of them,

02:46:50.300 but the ones I infiltrate is like, I didn't join the outlaws to be a beta.

02:46:55.180 Right.

02:46:55.540 I joined the outlaws to be an alpha.

02:46:57.220 Right.

02:46:57.680 I'm going out here.

02:46:58.520 I don't care what I'm doing.

02:46:59.500 I'm an outlaw.

02:47:00.320 Yeah. 0.98

02:47:00.560 All private equity people, criminals. 0.92

02:47:03.280 Yeah.

02:47:05.760 But so these guys were predicated.

02:47:07.880 the Taunton chapter specifically, Taunton, Massachusetts.

02:47:11.260 And I went up, I interviewed, and I said, look, okay,

02:47:15.100 my idea was just let me go in there.

02:47:18.300 So what I did, because I used to work at gentlemen's clubs,

02:47:21.180 which is an oxymoron in my opinion because there's no gentleman in there.

02:47:26.560 And neither was I back then, living in the flesh as they say.

02:47:31.420 Amen.

02:47:32.200 I know, right? 1.00

02:47:32.820 And then you have two daughters, and it's all girl dogs. 1.00

02:47:34.980 I'm like, y'all stay away from any pole in this house. 1.00

02:47:37.880 I swear, no, I'm just kidding. 1.00

02:47:40.660 But I knew how those establishments worked.

02:47:44.840 So I went, I would go in when, like, day shift,

02:47:50.440 when it wasn't, and the outlaws weren't all in there.

02:47:52.980 Because we knew that they told me the bar they were at and stuff.

02:47:55.980 So that's what I did, maybe two, three times,

02:47:58.620 because human nature is to exaggerate, you know?

02:48:02.400 So the night that they're finally coming in,

02:48:04.440 the outlaws are finally coming in.

02:48:05.920 Coming into the strip club?

02:48:06.780 Yeah, because I'm there now, all right? 0.97

02:48:08.720 So they have a lot of your biker clubs, one percenter clubs,

02:48:12.500 have a mandatory meeting every week.

02:48:14.020 They refer to that as church. 0.81

02:48:16.040 Some clubs, that's where they talk dirty business.

02:48:18.240 You know, you leave your phones outside, all that thing. 1.00

02:48:20.620 Or it just might be shooting the bull.

02:48:22.700 It might be time to collect the dues, whatever.

02:48:25.180 But the surveillance team was on them. 0.99

02:48:28.340 I'm already at the Foxy Lady, which was the strip club.

02:48:31.520 And that's in Oregon?

02:48:32.420 It was in Brockton, Massachusetts.

02:48:33.760 Got it.

02:48:34.260 So Taunton and Brockton are right next to each other.

02:48:36.140 Okay.

02:48:36.320 But the strip club's in Brockton.

02:48:38.360 So I'm already at the Foxy Lady.

02:48:39.800 I'm getting some drinks.

02:48:40.720 I'm telling jokes.

02:48:41.760 People are laughing.

02:48:43.160 And then here comes like 13, 15 Outlaws.

02:48:45.860 And they take the whole back wall in the back bar.

02:48:48.100 See a black leather and testosterone, right? 0.50

02:48:50.300 Yeah.

02:48:50.880 And originally I'd been told that they weren't allowed to wear their colors,

02:48:54.580 which is the vest with the moniker you saw.

02:48:57.480 That's their cut.

02:48:58.800 And that was one of my first questions.

02:49:00.340 I'm like, hey, man, can they wear their colors in the bars?

02:49:03.280 And they're like, no, they're not allowed to.

02:49:04.520 And I'm like, oh, okay, that makes it easier for me.

02:49:06.880 Yeah.

02:49:07.320 Because now I'm just a tattooed dude, drinking whiskey,

02:49:10.500 looking at naked people, listening to heavy metal music.

02:49:12.700 It's the same thing the guy next to him is doing.

02:49:14.520 But when they come in and they're all wearing their colors,

02:49:16.600 that changes my approach.

02:49:17.620 Because listen to me, do I sound like I'm from Boston?

02:49:20.020 Absolutely not.

02:49:21.280 As soon as I start talking, they're like, where the F are you from?

02:49:24.040 And I'm like, you know, deep south, south, south.

02:49:28.660 I'm from south Boston.

02:49:30.680 I'm a Southie.

02:49:33.380 Southie Carolina. 1.00

02:49:34.220 Yeah, Southie Carolina, that's it, you know, kackalacky.

02:49:37.000 So, you know, do you walk over around the bar and go, hey, fellas, y'all ride?

02:49:41.780 No? 0.84

02:49:42.720 I'm going to take a butt kicking or something. 0.87

02:49:45.360 So I started working, doing what I do, I guess.

02:49:51.980 There was one guy that they had said that was in the group,

02:49:54.960 and they had the intel perfect on him.

02:49:56.440 He loved to be surrounded by big dudes.

02:49:58.140 He liked to be the center of attention.

02:49:59.880 So I'm laughing it up, and I'm cutting it up,

02:50:02.180 and it's getting louder and louder.

02:50:03.440 and but i've got people around me that i can see him you know it's like fishing like i can see him

02:50:08.660 looking you know and i'm like okay all right he's paying attention now i was a bigger dude six four

02:50:13.120 probably 280 then and holding it very well and uh he uh i see him talking to the bartender well

02:50:20.560 what's he saying who is that oh that dude's from texas man he comes here all the time all the time

02:50:25.300 two three times you know whatever but then eventually he yells at me and he says

02:50:32.300 Yeah, there I am, right there after a shoulder surgery.

02:50:34.560 He yells at me, and he says, hey, where the F are you from?

02:50:39.420 And I'm like, man, down near the border of Mexico.

02:50:43.040 What?

02:50:43.480 So we start joking back and forth.

02:50:45.220 I think he sent me a drink first, called me over.

02:50:48.120 I won't ever start talking.

02:50:49.420 Next thing you know, we're hitting it off.

02:50:51.640 He's giving me cards for the Lobster Festival, which is Lobster Fest.

02:50:57.220 Yeah, they love it.

02:50:58.020 Yeah, Lobster Fest.

02:50:58.660 And it was going to be, you know, like the next month.

02:51:01.140 And he said, just tell them you're with me.

02:51:03.220 And so then you start, you just start ingratiating and you start getting trust.

02:51:07.020 Yeah.

02:51:07.660 They love a lobster, man.

02:51:09.020 Yes.

02:51:09.320 They love a fish that can pinch you.

02:51:10.760 Yeah, man.

02:51:11.600 And me too.

02:51:12.780 I'm a bottom feeder.

02:51:14.260 All of them, man.

02:51:15.280 All of them shrimp. 0.87

02:51:16.340 Shrimp and crab legs. 0.78

02:51:17.380 I can eat my weight in that stuff.

02:51:18.580 Yeah, I'm a top.

02:51:19.560 Yeah.

02:51:19.880 So eventually you get in and you make more and more acquaintances.

02:51:26.000 And I came in as a site survey specialist, the same kind of thing I did on the base case.

02:51:30.740 But that allowed me to travel.

02:51:33.940 It allowed me to be there and not live there or whatever, you know.

02:51:37.400 I found quickly when I started flying a lot that even in Houston, when I was based in McAllen, 0.79

02:51:43.680 there's people that don't live in Houston, but there's so many daggum flights. 1.00

02:51:46.980 They literally fly in, work, fly home. 0.99

02:51:49.740 Or they might come in for the week and then go home on the weekend. 1.00

02:51:52.400 So I said, well, I can sell that because it's true.

02:51:55.560 I mean, I've seen plenty of people doing it.

02:51:57.180 So that's kind of what I was doing.

02:51:58.860 You were living in Texas and flying in for work?

02:52:00.780 Yep.

02:52:01.160 And then eventually they find out that I'm also a criminal.

02:52:04.720 Oh, shocker, right?

02:52:06.060 Because they're already predicated.

02:52:07.340 And what were you flying in for just to be part of the group?

02:52:10.040 No, I originally said I'm there doing site survey specialist work

02:52:13.520 for investors that are looking to buy a property.

02:52:15.740 And I would go do that.

02:52:17.500 And I would actually go legitimately go down to the clerk of court

02:52:20.880 and pull records and stuff and because again you want it to look smell taste feel real um

02:52:27.840 but uh they what they eventually learned or what i portrayed and what they believed was that i was

02:52:36.400 a high ranking if not the leader of an high ranking member if not the leader of an international

02:52:41.360 theft ring and i was moving stuff into mexico um so it started with some insurance fraud they

02:52:48.240 They would report vehicles stolen, motorcycles, and this is all based on the truth because

02:52:54.520 at that time, when I was living in the border, I'd already learned through auto theft groups,

02:53:01.220 task forces and stuff, and from the insurance company, that Harley-Davisons and V8 4x4s,

02:53:06.620 man, the cartel, they would steal them all the time.

02:53:09.100 So I'm telling the truth, and they do motorcycles first.

02:53:14.340 So they report three or four Harleys stolen.

02:53:17.060 So they get the stolen money from their insurance company.

02:53:19.300 I pay a stolen price, which is usually around 20% of what the real price would be.

02:53:24.620 And then I'm off.

02:53:26.000 Well, they don't get arrested.

02:53:27.540 And then the next thing you know, it's a truck.

02:53:29.700 And the next thing you know, and then we get full-fledged.

02:53:32.000 Now it's like, when you're coming back, Tex, when you're coming back, I got three things lined up.

02:53:36.540 So you pull up, and, man, we would load F-350s.

02:53:39.260 Yeah, steal my wife.

02:53:40.540 Yeah, F-350s, stuff like that.

02:53:43.740 But even if you were worried about predication, like, if you're predicated, and for the people that don't know that, it just means that we've got evidence that you either talked about it or doing it.

02:53:55.620 So if we have nothing on you, and I'm coming up to bump you, and I'm just going to go, hey, man, you want some marijuana?

02:54:02.860 Or you want a kilo of coke?

02:54:04.720 That's odd, and that's not right.

02:54:06.640 I'm now leading it.

02:54:07.380 But when the first time I walk outside with the president of the Outlaws chapter who went by Joe Dogs, so he's the chapter president, we walk outside and he goes, where do you live?

02:54:18.460 I said, McAllen.

02:54:19.240 He goes, where's that?

02:54:19.800 It's right on the border.

02:54:20.780 Next question.

02:54:21.760 How much can you get a kilo of cocaine for?

02:54:24.100 I'm like, about 13 right now.

02:54:25.680 Lives between 11 and 13 on the border.

02:54:27.860 He goes, man, if I could get them for 13.

02:54:29.600 I said, no, you don't get them for 13 unless you come to the border and then you drive them back up.

02:54:35.200 The reason they cost $25 to $30 up here is because it has to make it here from the border.

02:54:39.780 Not a good drug dealer.

02:54:42.860 Or his math was off.

02:54:44.360 Not a good businessman.

02:54:45.580 I'm like, no, that's not how it works.

02:54:47.040 There's risk involved.

02:54:48.140 Well, it's a good pitch.

02:54:49.140 I want to get it for the same as you.

02:54:50.840 I know, yeah.

02:54:52.660 So, next thing you know, like I said, F-350s, 4x4 Tahoe.

02:54:58.980 So, it's a lot of insurance fraud at first.

02:55:00.620 At first.

02:55:01.160 Got it.

02:55:01.680 Then, I've gained trust.

02:55:02.880 Now they carjack somebody, and they're calling me Tex.

02:55:05.280 We got one that is hot.

02:55:06.680 I mean, it is on fire right now.

02:55:08.040 We just took this dude at gunpoint.

02:55:09.320 We almost killed him, blah, blah, blah.

02:55:11.020 And I'm like, don't worry about it.

02:55:11.960 I got it.

02:55:12.400 And now I'm moving that.

02:55:13.700 Now I'm gaining more trust, right?

02:55:15.840 So as the case goes on.

02:55:17.640 And are y'all using code language?

02:55:18.980 Like, we got a bad lobster up here or something like that?

02:55:21.320 You can, but what's comical about that, Theo, is I've sat on so many wiretaps,

02:55:25.540 and we've run wiretaps, and you're listening,

02:55:27.740 or you get on the phone yourself as undercover,

02:55:29.860 and you're being all, like, super operational security.

02:55:32.320 You're like, okay, the bird is in the cage.

02:55:35.820 I've got three cheeseburgers out back.

02:55:38.820 Five minutes into the conversation, I'm telling you, 99% of the time,

02:55:42.760 they're just talking openly dirty.

02:55:44.220 It's like they start with it, you know what I mean? 0.99

02:55:47.060 Yeah, there's like a whisper in the wigwam or whatever. 0.62

02:55:51.240 Yeah, like I had a guy on another case. 0.68

02:55:53.440 I won't go into it because I will stay on the outlaws.

02:55:55.400 But this is when he's like, you know, Scott, you know, I don't do cocaine anymore.

02:56:00.380 And I'm looking at him going, I know, man, I know.

02:56:02.080 He goes, I used to do a boatload of it, but I don't do it anymore.

02:56:05.140 I said, I know.

02:56:05.740 He said, this right here, that's just a bump.

02:56:07.800 And he goes on, and I go, you just did cocaine.

02:56:12.200 And he said, okay.

02:56:13.340 And he says, you know, I don't sell it anymore either.

02:56:15.260 I said, I know, Mike.

02:56:16.200 He said, I used to sell truckloads of it, but I don't anymore.

02:56:19.740 I said, I know, man.

02:56:20.620 He goes, but if you want them 5-8 balls, I'll get them for $7.50.

02:56:23.720 It's just like, I'm like, what?

02:56:25.500 You're a little tank.

02:56:27.500 I'm like, I am confused. 0.72

02:56:28.780 So during this case, a guy I didn't tell you about,

02:56:33.340 there was actually a picture of him in that picture you pulled up,

02:56:35.260 the red shirt, red T-shirt, that's Scott Town.

02:56:38.200 I talk thoroughly about Scott Town in the book.

02:56:41.080 Again, I told you, I worked undercover from 96 to 2022 roughly.

02:56:45.420 And how much cocaine are you on right there with that bad arm?

02:56:47.860 Brother, look at you grinning.

02:56:50.220 That would be muscle relaxers and pain pills.

02:56:52.740 Yeah, my God, boy.

02:56:55.740 I'm like less than a week out, I think, right there.

02:56:57.980 your smile did a gram at least brother no i did not uh just joking yeah i know okay so scott town

02:57:06.280 uh so this is legitimately the closest relationship i've ever built undercover

02:57:13.000 we bonded so well i mean it was scary like i mean i'm talking like we could complete each

02:57:19.540 other's sentences we thought the same it was literally the story of that proverbial fork

02:57:24.920 in the road he went that way and i went that way and i easily could have gone his way and maybe

02:57:30.120 that's why i was good at my skill set in these types of environments because y'all was just

02:57:35.640 friends well he was he was he went to jail he was a target i mean he he was not a patch member um

02:57:41.820 his story was he was going to be patched but he was also doing some stuff for the mafia

02:57:46.420 and somewhere his group got pinched and he was he was he was looking at time and at that point in

02:57:52.700 time he had four daughters and he said i don't want to i don't want to go to prison with my

02:57:56.620 four daughters and i was like hey man cool um but there would be like a lot they would be talk like

02:58:01.580 man grenades bazookas whatever rocket launchers not a bazooka rocket launcher yeah um but those

02:58:07.540 things would talk and then it wouldn't come to or somebody would come in talking big and we'd like

02:58:11.500 oh this looks good and then it wouldn't come through but but after the carjackings and thing

02:58:15.420 like that we start getting more and more because the case team is also running the title three

02:58:19.840 wiretap um and eventually we got to the point in the case where i let them know not all at once

02:58:28.740 but i let them know that yes i did used to be in the drug trade but heat was getting close people

02:58:35.080 were getting pinched and i backed out of it because running everything south most of the

02:58:41.440 time law enforcement is looking for money or guns going south to trade for dope or buy dope got it

02:58:47.620 I'm like, if you got a – this is my story to them.

02:58:49.820 I'm like, if you got a truck full of stolen vehicles, if the bill of laden –

02:58:53.440 I mean, what's the truck driver know?

02:58:54.480 He sees a bill of laden, he does what he does.

02:58:56.520 I was just talking, blowing smoke, but kind of making it –

02:58:59.680 making them comfortable, relaxed, I think, enough.

02:59:04.620 But I eventually let them know I did used to be in the dope game

02:59:06.800 because from day one, they were hounding me.

02:59:10.560 When are you going to introduce somebody down there?

02:59:12.260 Because think of it.

02:59:13.580 What does a drug dealer want?

02:59:14.580 they want the purest dope they can get at the cheapest price they can get so that way you can

02:59:19.200 step on it and make some money right so imagine having a pipeline in little old taunton massachusetts

02:59:25.280 directly from the cartel let's go yeah right you're getting keys so that's what they saw in you

02:59:30.200 yeah got it yeah and that was all fictional that was my backstory yeah that was my legend yeah but

02:59:36.120 it wasn't really happening right um and like all the stolen vehicles they would think they're going

02:59:40.680 No, we'd make sure nobody's following them,

02:59:43.600 but then that semi would turn around

02:59:45.340 and head up north of Boston or something to a warehouse,

02:59:47.960 and by the end of the case,

02:59:48.900 you got a warehouse full of stolen parts and cars

02:59:51.860 and motorcycles and stolen cars and whatever.

02:59:55.760 Dang, bro.

02:59:56.600 Big trucks, big trucks.

02:59:58.540 So the case gets to a point like, yeah, sorry.

03:00:01.120 It's good.

03:00:01.700 So I start laying out that I wasn't a dope game,

03:00:05.280 and Joe Dawgs is chomping at the bit, man.

03:00:07.100 And he's like, dude, you got to introduce me.

03:00:10.960 And I started saying, my guy's Manny, Manny, Manny.

03:00:14.220 And they're like, man, if I can meet Manny.

03:00:16.240 Well, the whole ruse was, and this technique's been used, and it was a drug protection.

03:00:21.880 I said, look, here's the deal.

03:00:23.360 I laid it out over a long period of time.

03:00:25.500 But I'm like, look, Manny reached out to me, wants to know, he wanted my truck drivers

03:00:30.400 to deliver a load into Canada. 1.00

03:00:31.620 And the reason I told them that a white guy, the gringo, never got kicked out of a Mexican 1.00

03:00:35.940 drug trafficking organization or international theft ring is because I was the guy with the 1.00

03:00:41.100 dirty contacts at the port of entry and at the checkpoints and yes there's corruption not all

03:00:46.660 but I'm saying it it's there's corruption cases on the border I mean think about this you get

03:00:51.940 somebody offers you 15 grand to do this next I don't know if you're broke I mean you know what

03:00:58.340 I mean um so not saying everybody's dirty uh but I'm saying that's why that was my story and they

03:01:04.580 believed it because why else would they keep me in so when i did that story about going to canada

03:01:09.400 i said hey um does your guy do you still have your people at the checkpoint or the point of

03:01:15.600 entry no they fell through i said i'm not letting my truck drivers do it i said but i've been being

03:01:21.380 hounded we just want to meet them and i'm like what if they come here and we just meet and we

03:01:27.280 help this because we want to make sure nothing's getting ripped and all that stuff and they're like

03:01:30.280 yeah man that'd be awesome so that's what we started laying out now scott town jumps on

03:01:34.600 and scott town i even look at him and i'm like dude why are you doing this what you told me

03:01:40.020 no there's a strong argument to be made that the reason he did that is because he liked me so much

03:01:46.360 no way because he so you kind of let him into it even just by being buddies it's not an entrapment

03:01:51.260 thing but it's like if you ask him he's probably going to say something like this um i didn't want

03:01:59.560 to do it and i was suspicious but he knew joe dogs and the other people involved could screw

03:02:05.620 it up really bad and if i got hurt and he wasn't there he'd never forgive himself you see what i'm

03:02:10.960 saying y'all were close huh yeah tight real tight um but so there's a point in the case and

03:02:20.300 i'm i'm bouncing his daughter on my knee his daughter's one my youngest daughter's one

03:02:27.260 So they kind of are making the same noises and moving the same.

03:02:30.560 But I'm not at home with my daughter.

03:02:31.820 I'm there with his.

03:02:32.900 And, you know, you're looking.

03:02:33.800 I know the training.

03:02:34.700 I know I put the training on.

03:02:37.060 But I'm looking at everybody going, man, I love this guy.

03:02:40.220 I mean, yeah, I mean, if he does criminal stuff, okay.

03:02:43.260 But, I mean, we think the same.

03:02:45.680 He likes to do this.

03:02:46.720 I like to do it.

03:02:47.300 We work out, fight, ride, all that stuff, man.

03:02:51.220 Do you miss him?

03:02:53.740 Yeah.

03:02:55.100 Yeah.

03:02:55.640 You still keep in touch with him?

03:02:56.880 maybe maybe now after after all this came out yeah it's uh it's pretty amazing actually

03:03:07.680 i've also been trolled by people we put in jail too it's pretty funny but uh maybe i'll end it

03:03:14.160 on that but so i'm looking at the refrigerator and i'm thinking all these thoughts and i'm like

03:03:21.880 man i'm looking at the refrigerator he's got all kinds of stickers and magnets and stuff and i saw

03:03:25.480 one that said WWSD.

03:03:27.660 Now, if you're in the Christian faith, you see

03:03:29.580 WWJD a lot. What would Jesus do?

03:03:31.560 What would Jesus do? Wristbands and stuff.

03:03:33.540 And I looked over, and I go, WWSD?

03:03:35.620 And I looked, and it said, what would

03:03:37.540 Satan do? And I went, oh, no,

03:03:39.480 he's different. He's different.

03:03:41.540 But it was just like a tough guy thing.

03:03:43.840 And then... So he wasn't a real Satanist?

03:03:45.880 No, no, he was just

03:03:47.260 bolstering. Just joking around with

03:03:49.480 magnets. Yeah, but

03:03:50.920 I was like, oh, no, we're not the same.

03:03:53.420 You're going to jail.

03:03:55.480 But is that weird, man, to be hanging out with somebody and always thinking in the back of your head,

03:04:01.540 they're going to go to jail?

03:04:02.660 Yeah. 1.00

03:04:03.120 It sounds like a fucking power trip. 0.99

03:04:05.140 No, actually, it could give you some stress. 1.00

03:04:07.800 It could give you some PTSD.

03:04:09.180 You could start getting anxiety because you're sitting there going, okay, you're fearing the end of the case.

03:04:14.440 You're fearing them finding out who you are.

03:04:16.180 You're fearing this relationship that you built.

03:04:18.080 And I know there'll be plenty of maybe law enforcement or even people on the case that'll be like,

03:04:21.940 I can't believe you're talking like that.

03:04:23.240 Look, man, I'm human.

03:04:25.080 I love that guy.

03:04:25.900 Yes.

03:04:26.720 Would it ever be weird if you were leaving a room together or something

03:04:29.640 and you wouldn't want to walk out first?

03:04:31.680 That would be my fear all the time.

03:04:33.000 I'd always be like, I've got to walk behind because I don't want to.

03:04:35.920 You know what I'm saying?

03:04:36.360 What if they know something or they're leading me somewhere?

03:04:38.540 Well, I'll say this.

03:04:40.320 A lot of cops sit in a restaurant, they keep their back to the wall

03:04:44.240 because you want to see everything.

03:04:45.760 When you're undercover, can you do that?

03:04:47.480 I mean, can I come in there and hug the wall with my back the whole way through

03:04:49.800 or do I just got to look like I'm a normal person?

03:04:51.480 People would catch on.

03:04:52.360 Yeah.

03:04:52.580 So you don't want to look, you don't want to raise suspicion.

03:04:54.840 Got it.

03:04:55.240 So the case is going and we get to the point where we're going to do the drug deal.

03:04:59.360 Got everything lined up months and months and months.

03:05:02.260 Scott's in.

03:05:03.420 There's some outlaws from Brockton that are in it.

03:05:06.180 There's some outlaws from Taunton that are in it.

03:05:08.820 And, you know, you asked one percenter, are they all criminals?

03:05:13.480 I mean, you look at the Brockton chapter, let's say most of them had day jobs.

03:05:17.600 Maybe they bent, maybe they did time, maybe they didn't.

03:05:19.820 but you go to the taunting chapter and out of like 13 uh 13 to 15 outlaws one and a half had a job

03:05:26.400 i say half because that guy was a tattoo artist and a piercer but i don't think he worked

03:05:30.140 you know nine to five yeah seven days a week it was more like a part-time thing the other guy had

03:05:35.100 a towing company everybody else was a straight thug all criminal activity didn't make money

03:05:39.660 whether it's robbing home invasion carjacking theft dope you know yeah so um i would do the dope

03:05:48.420 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'd probably do that every car theft for sure. But I don't even like driving at night that much. Really? I don't love it. So we get to the night before we've lined everything up and the assistant United States attorney is like, hey, they're talking. Are they talking about this in the clubhouse? You know, kind of thing about this drug deal that we're getting ready to do and all this. I said, yeah, I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about it.

03:06:17.280 You know, from an investigative or evidence standpoint, it would be good to have.

03:06:22.820 Because if they're talking about that planning and all that, that'll help with, like, asset forfeiture and getting search warrants for the property and stuff.

03:06:29.820 So just having recordings of them talking about it.

03:06:31.380 Yeah, yeah.

03:06:32.120 So I go to the clubhouse.

03:06:34.960 Joe Dawgs tells me to come over.

03:06:36.440 It's the night before we're going to do the big drug deal.

03:06:38.700 They don't know it, but we've got 50 kilos of real cocaine, and we've got 1,000 pounds of real weed.

03:06:43.460 Let's go.

03:06:44.220 And we're going to have to move it from one truck to another.

03:06:46.740 Now, snipers are up on the roof.

03:06:48.740 I mean, we got SWAT all in the hotel.

03:06:51.060 I mean, I literally did, like, the TV thing where you walk in

03:06:53.620 and you can't see nothing because the projector's on your face,

03:06:56.360 and they're like, this is the guy that's going to be the undercover, you know.

03:06:59.140 And I'm like, yeah, I look a lot like the other dudes.

03:07:02.560 Don't shoot me.

03:07:05.680 Just tell me.

03:07:06.440 I'll be real still, man.

03:07:08.540 You know?

03:07:09.940 Yeah, dude, I'd be like, I'm the guy wearing, like,

03:07:12.400 i would wear like a special neck brace or like a um maybe like a john elway jersey or something

03:07:17.500 yeah something to stand out dude i would wear like a yeah like a mason crosby jersey i would

03:07:23.280 wear something that like do not shoot this crash test dummy full jumpsuit you know right with

03:07:28.960 reflections on it yeah yeah like a suicide voice shirt or maybe not that that might not help

03:07:33.240 that might not help so so uh i remember here's a funny one joe dogs i said hey man we got to be

03:07:39.020 nonchalant we're gonna be out here doing all this stuff i was like hey uh wear wear something that

03:07:43.780 doesn't attract a lot of attention yeah yeah not the way he dressed you walk out there with a shirt 0.98

03:07:50.720 that says f that bitch oh yeah in all caps and i'm like that's low-key all right well i mean who 0.96

03:07:57.600 knows what he'd told her before that i know right so so it's the night before i get there uh and 0.99

03:08:04.500 they're having church they're still having church i'm banging on the door and it's weird man nobody's

03:08:08.800 coming and all of a sudden Joe dogs does that you know like hey uh uh we're not ready yet I'm like

03:08:14.180 well why'd you call me over here yeah I'm not thinking nothing I go uh he tells me to take a

03:08:19.800 probate which would be somebody on probation or they call them prospects you're not a full patch

03:08:24.380 member yet you're you've advanced from hang around status you're trying to become a full patch member

03:08:30.120 so he says hey take probate obi y'all go get something to eat so we went down to the restaurant

03:08:35.580 got a couple of drinks something he came back and i go into the clubhouse and when i go in the

03:08:42.640 clubhouse i've been in that thing like umpteen time i don't know there's one door i'd never been

03:08:47.560 in now for the listeners that may not know um at least with this chapter if you weren't a patch

03:08:53.780 member which i wasn't um you're not allowed to touch the door you're not allowed to touch the

03:08:58.300 phone but they're giving you drinks for free right i had been asked i actually been told

03:09:03.420 that I need to become an outlaw.

03:09:06.340 But I painted it as, like, I travel all over the country, man.

03:09:09.140 I can't have that bullseye on my back, you know,

03:09:12.120 but I'm very humbled by it kind of thing.

03:09:15.260 But so I go in there, and at this point in the case,

03:09:20.240 it's been a year and a half.

03:09:21.180 I'm a year and a half in, and my closest relationship is Scott Town.

03:09:26.800 My second closest relationship at this point is the enforcer

03:09:29.920 who went by the street name Clothesline.

03:09:33.420 His real name is Brian De La Vega.

03:09:35.580 So that was my second closest relationship.

03:09:37.200 My third closest was the president, Joe Dawgs,

03:09:39.360 and then it just trickled down from there.

03:09:41.000 But by this time, I've been all over the country.

03:09:43.220 I've been to Sturgis.

03:09:44.160 I've been to, you know, Daytona, wherever,

03:09:47.460 riding all over the place.

03:09:49.060 So I've met outlaws all over.

03:09:50.740 Actually, I've met outlaws from all over the world.

03:09:53.540 And they were actually recruiting myself in Scott Town

03:09:58.820 because I was bigger then too.

03:10:01.500 But Boston's a little weird because Boston in north is Hells Angels territory.

03:10:07.220 Boston in south was outlaws territory, and they were arts rivals.

03:10:11.320 And then you get to Cape Cod, and Hells Angels had a chapter there.

03:10:14.480 Got it.

03:10:14.900 So the outlaws were looking to set up a chapter in Cape Cod,

03:10:18.380 but they wanted to fill it with big, strong dudes that could handle themselves.

03:10:22.440 Okay.

03:10:22.760 And they were recruiting us for that, you know.

03:10:26.320 So I go into the clubhouse.

03:10:29.680 Door shuts behind me.

03:10:30.760 uh dead bolts uh steel frame door they had a door you'd never been in no no no this is this is just

03:10:37.560 the entry door got it right so if you if you get inside you'll see that they've mel uh welded metal

03:10:43.420 hooks to the steel frame of the door and put a steel bar across it so that's gonna from a breacher

03:10:48.640 standpoint it's gonna be a little harder it'd be tougher to breach got it um so i'm in there

03:10:53.960 i'm having some drinks and i've been there like i said maybe 20 times who knows there's one door

03:10:59.820 i've never been in uh and clothesline my second closest friend says uh he signed a friend right

03:11:07.020 friend uh he liked scott calloway i don't think he likes scott payne too much but he says hey tex

03:11:13.280 can i talk to you for a minute or he says do you got a minute either can i talk to you for a minute

03:11:17.360 you got a minute i'm like yeah so as i'm walking he grabs an ashtray and a lighter and or he tells

03:11:24.460 somebody too and we turn in and it is a very tight stairwell it's a very to call it a basement down

03:11:30.060 there is being very generous more like a cellar cross base i couldn't stand up straight in it

03:11:35.660 but it's a northeastern home kind of split level and as i'm walking in chocolate scott another

03:11:41.600 member comes in right behind me yeah chocolate scott this guy yeah they call him chocolate scott

03:11:47.740 or or or black scott but the thing is is uh he looked like a black guy and what you can't be

03:11:53.860 in the outlaws oh yeah he can't be i guess i was assuming he said he said he was indians but they

03:12:00.680 named him chocolate scott oh yeah um that would be my name yeah so i i followed as soon as i turn

03:12:07.860 in behind clothesline and chocolate scott comes in right behind me i know something's not right

03:12:12.380 and now it's really tight and you get down there it was a little bit of a false start because there

03:12:16.920 was something down there that that another member veg did not want me to see and they come down so

03:12:22.040 going down those steps i'm already getting an adrenaline dump like i was talking about earlier

03:12:25.560 right we come back up i'm not free to leave outlaws everywhere they're hiding whatever they

03:12:31.500 needed to hide i'm not sure what it was but then it's like okay let's go back down so i get down

03:12:39.720 there and so they take you halfway down they take you back up yeah they take me down that'd be weird

03:12:46.020 oh it's terrible it's almost like you're surprised probably but they're not ready yeah yeah because

03:12:50.000 So Ved just walks down there, and he's doing this.

03:12:51.820 I see him doing a movement that's like, hey, get out.

03:12:55.760 And I'm like, I don't know what's going on, but I'm looking.

03:12:57.760 I'm looking for plastic on the floor.

03:12:59.040 I saw a rope, and I'm like, oh, great.

03:13:00.800 You saw a rope?

03:13:01.700 Yeah, yeah.

03:13:03.080 And I'm like, oh, man.

03:13:03.880 And you've got to be thinking, I'm getting out of here then.

03:13:06.780 No, I wasn't.

03:13:08.460 What did you think they were going to do?

03:13:10.560 I didn't know yet.

03:13:12.000 But even if you saw a rope?

03:13:13.180 Even if I tried to leave.

03:13:14.340 I mean, think about it.

03:13:15.080 Like, if I see a rope at all, I never see a rope, right?

03:13:17.420 because I'm 13 outlaws but I'm and they're they got guns they already showed me their guns oh got

03:13:22.000 it yeah so I'm basically at gunpoint you know okay um so I go back up and we walk back down 0.90

03:13:27.680 and that's when we get down there and clothesline says hey there's a lot of shit going on it's my

03:13:32.520 job to take care of my brothers because he's the enforcer and he says um I need you to take all 0.85

03:13:38.220 your clothes off everything boots and everything and would you have on boots or sneakers I had

03:13:42.960 boots um and uh he said i need you to write down your full name your date of birth your address

03:13:49.960 your wife's name he goes i'm not gonna ask for your kids names even though i can find them out

03:13:55.240 if i need to and he goes everything social security everything i said okay but you can

03:14:00.920 hear my voice already because i'm having an adrenaline dump my voice is higher my throat's

03:14:05.260 tighter i'm hearing that i'm hearing that underwater auditory exclusion it's going wolf

03:14:10.340 oh i would be so scared my time dilation my eyes are clicking everything i'm hearing is going

03:14:16.640 i need you to write down your that's what i'm hearing it's like on one of those boxing video

03:14:22.040 games when you're about to get knocked out or whatever and you're like and it starts to get

03:14:25.800 kind of blurry yeah yeah so and did you write your real stuff on there yeah no no i didn't i

03:14:31.380 didn't but i forgot my middle name because of the stress i forgot my middle name was uh

03:14:35.620 Andrew.

03:14:37.740 Did you just make one up?

03:14:39.000 No.

03:14:39.620 No, I should have.

03:14:40.640 That would have been a smart thing to do.

03:14:41.880 But then again, maybe not if they're really going to run it.

03:14:44.160 Yeah.

03:14:44.520 Right?

03:14:44.840 So I'm like, I'm going Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway.

03:14:48.520 And I go Scott Joseph Calloway.

03:14:49.660 And I'm like, nope.

03:14:50.140 I'm going through this Rolodex in my head.

03:14:51.560 It feels like it's eight minutes.

03:14:52.780 It's a couple of seconds.

03:14:54.980 And then I remembered my initials.

03:14:57.160 And I remembered, oh, I'm Scott Andrew Calloway.

03:14:59.480 But what I did is, like when we talked about shootings and stuff

03:15:03.120 and officers not knowing that they did it, certain things.

03:15:08.520 The same thing happened to me, but it was on a verbal thing.

03:15:11.040 I would have never known I said this unless I didn't listen to the recording,

03:15:15.060 unless I listened to the recording.

03:15:17.580 But while I'm forgetting my middle name, I turn and I go,

03:15:21.240 and what else do you need?

03:15:22.240 But it sounds like this, and what else do you need?

03:15:24.500 Because I'm freaking out.

03:15:26.560 Yeah, my diction's terrible, talking through my nose, higher-pitched voice,

03:15:30.860 And then I hear them yell, what do you need for that website?

03:15:33.380 And I go, oh, okay, because I'm listening.

03:15:34.920 I'm still listening, even though I'm freaking out.

03:15:36.360 I'm like, oh, okay, they're going to write this down.

03:15:38.000 They're going to run me.

03:15:38.740 They're going to Google me.

03:15:39.560 And back then they had like a who's a rat.com you could go to and run.

03:15:44.520 Were you on there?

03:15:45.220 No, no.

03:15:47.400 But I said, okay, I'm feeling better.

03:15:49.360 Feet Finder they had, too.

03:15:50.460 Yeah, right?

03:15:51.060 So then he says, and then I need you to take all your clothes off, everything. 0.96

03:15:55.160 Oh, damn, they want you on Feet Finder. 0.97

03:15:56.480 He says, because I got to check you for a wire. 0.98

03:15:59.780 Here's the issue, Theo.

03:16:00.880 I was wired to the hilt.

03:16:02.100 Nuh-uh.

03:16:02.740 I had two recording devices on me and a transmitter.

03:16:06.000 And I won't say where, what, but. 1.00

03:16:08.940 Fuck, he was a damn iPhone at that point. 1.00

03:16:10.780 Yeah, well, back then. 1.00

03:16:12.580 No, I mean, you were one.

03:16:13.560 Yeah, yes. 1.00

03:16:14.340 I mean, all that shit he had on you. 0.99

03:16:16.420 And back then, that would have been like circa 2006-ish, 7-ish. 0.99

03:16:21.800 They were big on Nextels.

03:16:24.000 So, you know.

03:16:25.160 I know, yeah.

03:16:26.680 Great radio.

03:16:27.700 Yeah.

03:16:27.880 but terrible to call somebody

03:16:29.540 bring some milk on

03:16:31.160 I could key you up in Japan

03:16:32.840 and it'd be like

03:16:34.140 what's up

03:16:34.900 hey you know

03:16:35.640 fine but if I tried to call you

03:16:36.700 we couldn't hear nothing

03:16:37.480 I'm like I don't know

03:16:38.400 it sounded Japanese

03:16:39.920 yeah I'm like

03:16:40.720 I don't know what you're talking about 0.99

03:16:41.680 so damn 0.99

03:16:41.880 so they trying to strip search you 0.99

03:16:43.240 they did

03:16:43.940 and were you wearing underpants

03:16:46.000 or boxers you think

03:16:47.000 boxer briefs

03:16:48.300 nice

03:16:49.180 yeah

03:16:49.620 the comfort of a boxer

03:16:51.680 but the support of a brief

03:16:52.620 yeah

03:16:52.980 look I got them on right now

03:16:54.500 I do too

03:16:55.200 pretty cool 0.98

03:16:57.120 And much like that night, they're not white, which I was happy. 1.00

03:17:00.920 Oh, yeah. 1.00

03:17:02.400 Oh, yeah, if you'd have sold them up.

03:17:04.020 Sold them up, yeah.

03:17:04.880 You know what I'm saying?

03:17:06.300 A little of that back bay chowder, son.

03:17:08.000 Well, I tell them, I say.

03:17:10.100 So were you joking at this point, or were you scared?

03:17:12.140 No, I was scared to death.

03:17:13.680 I was scared to death.

03:17:14.180 I joke about it now, but I was scared to death.

03:17:15.680 So you took your clothes off?

03:17:16.600 So what I did is I took my coat, and it was cold because it was like November,

03:17:21.860 so I probably had like more than one T-shirt on.

03:17:24.180 Took all that off.

03:17:25.300 Took my boots off.

03:17:26.180 and i dropped my underwear and jeans down to my ankles i never kicked them off so from the ankles

03:17:31.280 up i'm completely naked they checked me for a wire um he missed one thing that was that was

03:17:38.020 i had in my sock it was a device but you know um so i go he passed me down and i'm having

03:17:48.300 adrenaline dump right everything's slow motion i can feel my heart beating my my man parts felt

03:17:55.500 like they were in my throat you know and are they calling you or anything are they calling 0.99

03:17:59.500 your names and shit no no but during the talk there's that's a good question because 0.99

03:18:02.940 we at least the way i was trained you just don't want a vapor lock you don't want to get the deer 0.99

03:18:08.820 in the headlights looks at least keep talking at least keep trying to find something right find a

03:18:13.160 way up get some information what are you doing guys what's this about what's it i did i go should

03:18:16.820 i ask what's going on and they're like hey man this is some precautions blah blah blah and what

03:18:20.560 he says to me he goes trust me man he goes i like you a lot he goes but i've got my doubts too 0.98

03:18:25.320 he said um if somebody accused me of being a fed i'd probably smash him in the effing mouth and i

03:18:31.020 said i'm not i looked at him i said i'm not happy and he goes i wouldn't be either but what you

03:18:34.920 can't see is because we know each other even though my words may be saying one thing what

03:18:38.920 my face is saying the clothesline is tell me i'm okay tell me i'm gonna be all right his facial

03:18:44.200 expressions back to me were it's okay but i was in fact undercover and i was wired and if he found

03:18:51.580 it i don't know what's going to happen so i pull my pants back up i think i'm putting my boots on

03:18:57.880 and he grabs a piece of clothing and it had something in it and he says i'm not going to

03:19:03.800 find anything in here i don't want to like some pictures of my old lady and he laughs and he goes

03:19:08.200 and i go i hope not now i'm standing there i can't stand up straight i'm on the wall

03:19:15.060 and i'm watching him need this piece of clothing with his hands he's doing this

03:19:18.680 and i know circa that year what our equipment was and all that stuff if he would have felt it

03:19:25.820 now uh he misses it he looks right at it he misses it and even while he's searching it

03:19:33.980 i don't know i'd do it but you can hear me because i'm just standing there and you can hear me go

03:19:37.760 because i'm like what am i gonna do right so here's the thing um

03:19:46.260 he misses it

03:19:48.500 he hands me back

03:19:49.660 my stuff

03:19:50.140 I immediately go

03:19:50.940 into joking

03:19:51.420 because that's

03:19:52.800 not only me

03:19:53.740 it's also a defense

03:19:54.820 mechanism

03:19:55.240 when you're scared

03:19:56.080 right

03:19:56.460 been joking my whole life

03:19:57.460 cracking jokes

03:19:58.560 like I said

03:20:00.320 I'm glad I didn't

03:20:01.300 wear white underwear

03:20:02.040 yeah

03:20:02.600 you know

03:20:03.140 and we go back

03:20:04.900 into business

03:20:05.380 you just keep saying

03:20:06.140 that glad I didn't

03:20:06.700 wear white

03:20:07.060 you just keep glitching

03:20:08.060 glad I didn't

03:20:08.920 wear a point

03:20:09.400 and it's like 0.99

03:20:10.980 what the fuck 0.99

03:20:11.520 what's wrong with him 1.00

03:20:12.440 he's a robot

03:20:13.020 yeah yeah 1.00

03:20:13.840 bring in Choco Stain

03:20:15.480 or whatever that guy's name was.

03:20:16.900 Chocolate Scott.

03:20:17.800 Chocolate Scott.

03:20:19.600 So people always ask me,

03:20:23.020 what would you have said

03:20:24.360 if Clothesline would have found it?

03:20:26.180 And I said, well,

03:20:27.140 I remember it like it was yesterday.

03:20:28.800 It also helps that I teach it all over the place 0.88

03:20:30.480 and I still relive it all the daggone time.

03:20:32.960 So there's really little room for error there

03:20:35.820 as far as exaggerating and stuff.

03:20:37.880 So I, or remembering it wrong.

03:20:41.360 I said, man, I remember it like it was yesterday.

03:20:44.520 maybe my first response would have been

03:20:47.620 I don't know some pictures if he said what is this

03:20:49.820 maybe I would have said I don't know some pictures of you 1.00

03:20:51.720 old lady as a joke because he already 1.00

03:20:53.660 threw that line to me you know am I going to find 0.63

03:20:55.680 anything in here

03:20:56.360 the only other thing that I had in my head

03:20:59.080 and again I remember like it was yesterday

03:21:00.860 I would have looked at him and said the gig is up

03:21:03.400 I'm an undercover FBI agent

03:21:05.380 and we can I can walk out of here and we can

03:21:07.540 see each other in court or all hell is going to break

03:21:09.600 loose the problem is

03:21:11.220 is that would have been a bluff on my part because as far

03:21:13.560 as i knew every time i'd been in that clubhouse my cover team couldn't hear me whether it's

03:21:17.740 equipment walls whatever i mean it's 2026 and i've got first net and i can walk into a building and

03:21:23.480 i can't get out you know and i'm like i don't so it's above my pay grade but for as far as i knew

03:21:28.140 well i mean they had surveillance you know right right right but but uh as far as i knew they can

03:21:35.400 never hear me that night at the end of the shift you know you go meet somewhere to predetermined

03:21:41.340 location and i'm turning over my recording equipment to the case team and whatever maybe

03:21:45.000 they're giving me more money for the next day or whatever and they do a debrief well when i got

03:21:49.920 there that night what i found out was is that the first two guys covering me were part of the main

03:21:56.420 case team it was a sergeant higginbottom from uh massachusetts state troopers uh everybody called

03:22:03.180 him higgy and then uh detective cummings uh from brockton pd and because they had known me for a

03:22:10.780 year and a half or a little more uh whatever happened at that first interaction with joe

03:22:16.740 dogs at the door it made them think something was up and they had pulled close enough or whatever

03:22:20.920 they were able to hear everything when they heard me getting stripped um of course they can hear

03:22:27.640 that i'm scared because they know my voice right they're radioing back to boston saying hey anybody

03:22:32.380 and they'll get down here and as far as the way i was told is everybody was coming blue lights and

03:22:36.260 siren down there. And they didn't hit it. They went ahead and they had a plan because they've

03:22:42.140 been in that clubhouse on other law enforcement activity. And they know how it's set up and they

03:22:46.780 knew how that door was fortified. So their plan, they put their vest on everything and their plan

03:22:51.200 was if they felt like it was time to pull the trigger to save me or whatever, they were going

03:22:55.760 to drive the van into the cinder block wall beside the door to kind of breach the wall.

03:23:00.800 So you're standing there. That's what you're thinking. If he knows what's going on,

03:23:04.360 Yeah.

03:23:04.720 That's what, those are your two plans of action, and they, and.

03:23:08.820 And they're out there waiting on, I mean.

03:23:10.500 And your case team is out there.

03:23:12.020 Listening.

03:23:12.540 Is out there listening, and there's help on the way.

03:23:14.900 Yes.

03:23:15.480 Okay.

03:23:15.900 Because Clothesline didn't find it, and also because that case team, Higginbottom and Cummings,

03:23:22.720 they knew me, and they didn't pull the trigger.

03:23:25.560 They were like, hang on, he's still okay, he's still okay.

03:23:28.020 Got it.

03:23:28.300 So we go out that night, and it's me, Joe Dawgs, and Scott Town, and I am livid.

03:23:33.740 I'm raising hell, you know, and even Joe Dawgs is like, Tex, you got to understand this has happened to other brothers, other people where everybody shows up and it's just, you know, we're the only people there and everybody else is an undercover, you know, and I played it off.

03:23:46.340 I'm like, I'm like, who the hell would spend that kind of time and money and try to, you know.

03:23:49.520 Yeah, for sure.

03:23:50.500 Besides us, you know, besides me.

03:23:53.480 But I go back.

03:23:54.940 I probably sleep maybe 30 minutes at night.

03:23:57.020 I go and meet everybody.

03:23:59.260 I think it was outside of IHOP.

03:24:01.240 I hand out the radios, and I tell them where we're going to go.

03:24:04.700 And it's pretty comical on recording because I say, all right,

03:24:07.340 we're going back up to the Westgate Mall in Brockton,

03:24:09.920 and Chocolate Scott starts bitching. 0.98

03:24:11.540 And he goes, man, I live right next to there.

03:24:13.960 I could have slept another 40 minutes.

03:24:15.700 Oh, yeah.

03:24:16.360 I hate it when that happens. 0.98

03:24:17.460 And Joe Dog starts, he goes, you guys are the laziest. 0.99

03:24:20.180 He goes, you guys are the laziest. 0.99

03:24:22.040 Let me get it right. 0.99

03:24:23.940 Yeah. 1.00

03:24:24.520 He goes, you guys are the laziest bunch of damn criminals I've ever met in my entire life. 1.00

03:24:28.260 You know, and I'm even busting this, I go, hey, I thought I left my wife at home. 1.00

03:24:31.560 Can you stop complaining, you know?

03:24:33.680 Talk to this guy.

03:24:34.600 Yeah, yeah.

03:24:35.340 So we go, we do the deal.

03:24:38.060 One truck pulls up.

03:24:40.300 It's fake drugs?

03:24:41.280 No, it's real.

03:24:42.240 Yeah.

03:24:42.520 It's real drugs.

03:24:43.560 So, I mean, they're smelling the weed.

03:24:45.460 You almost have a good budget up there then.

03:24:47.460 Well, I don't know where the case team got it.

03:24:50.660 It's probably evidence from another case.

03:24:52.600 Got it.

03:24:52.980 And it gets signed out.

03:24:54.040 But can you imagine if we lost that?

03:24:56.300 FBI loses 50 kilos of cocaine.

03:24:58.080 are you kidding me so yeah snipers are up and everything so uh the trucks back up the undercovers

03:25:04.380 joe dog's on the truck obi's on the truck we're covering stuff they're pulling surveillance you

03:25:09.160 know and just like normal surveillance i mean they got people i've been burnt i've been burnt

03:25:12.940 there's a guy staring at me calm down dude yeah you know and if a cop shows up let us know we're

03:25:17.940 gonna pull the trucks away and we pulled off the deal and then i went and paid everybody so y'all

03:25:22.380 did the deal yeah it went it went across they got to meet manny joe dogs wanted to meet manny who

03:25:27.080 Of course, he was an undercover, but he is a Hispanic guy that did all kinds of cartel stuff. 0.71

03:25:32.780 Shout out, Manny. 1.00

03:25:33.540 Yeah, shout out, Manny, man.

03:25:35.180 Martin Suarez.

03:25:36.120 He's actually got a book out, too.

03:25:37.760 Oh, wow.

03:25:39.920 Got to check it out, Martin Suarez.

03:25:41.680 Martin Suarez.

03:25:43.800 You do the deal.

03:25:44.780 Yeah, and we get up the next day, and like I said, we do the deal.

03:25:51.860 And then that night, maybe I slept a little bit, you know?

03:25:54.540 I'm going to need a massage after all this year and all of this.

03:25:57.080 And then I fly home, and I miss my flights.

03:26:00.500 They're delayed, canceled, whatever.

03:26:02.900 And then I go home to, when I landed in McAllen,

03:26:06.700 I drove straight to the house.

03:26:07.960 I brushed my teeth, changed my shirt, loaded up my daughters,

03:26:10.700 my wife, and my mother-in-law,

03:26:11.840 and we went to the Rio Grande Valley FBI Christmas party

03:26:15.180 for Laredo, Brownsville, and McAllen offices,

03:26:18.720 and I was Santa Claus for the kids

03:26:20.740 after being stripped in the basement at gunpoint

03:26:24.100 about two nights earlier.

03:26:26.180 Yeah.

03:26:26.760 Yeah.

03:26:27.080 And I don't stop.

03:26:28.940 So what happens, if you fast forward a little bit, now we're doing all this stuff.

03:26:34.700 We're still getting more things.

03:26:36.420 We got the big dope deal.

03:26:37.520 I'm getting trust here.

03:26:38.800 During that case, a president of the Hells Angels was murdered riding down the road.

03:26:45.520 We knew that it was a green truck with Florida plates.

03:26:48.720 We knew that we had outlaws from Florida up there.

03:26:51.800 And the case kept going.

03:26:53.500 and eventually i end up down in daytona at a world run and by this point i'm kind of a zombie

03:27:01.700 um because my mo always was i'm a workaholic i get it honestly from my parents but

03:27:07.440 my my mo always was like look if i can be above average or if i can on the squad that i'm on as

03:27:15.280 a case agent or if i can have some good cases and good sources maybe that lets my management not be

03:27:21.980 able to say no to me like you know hey you're a top producer Scott so you can't say no you can't

03:27:27.600 go on that SWAT call out or that SWAT school or that undercover or that undercover school

03:27:31.680 but what I was doing to myself is I was taking the warrior mentality which I think is imperative

03:27:37.400 for the line of work the warrior mentality yeah the war mentality and I think that's imperative

03:27:42.300 but I was applying it to every situation in my life so I was not taking days off because I didn't

03:27:46.900 want management to get mad i was not sleeping hardly at all i got to the point to where i was

03:27:51.960 drinking i wasn't a big energy drink guy um but you were huffing them huh well no what it was is

03:27:57.860 i was drinking like a pot of coffee and taking hydroxy cuts with ephedrine in them and i was

03:28:01.420 still falling asleep so i get down to daytona we've got murders that have happened we get we've

03:28:07.860 had sturgis where i arrived and the day i arrived uh the hell's angels shoot five outlaws point

03:28:14.100 blank range it was I think it was two patched one probate in Sturgis that happened yeah in Sturgis

03:28:18.740 and then um and then two two what they would refer to as old ladies um and it was some serious

03:28:24.660 wounds like people were paralyzed and stuff um it's just dangerous and put them on a gold wing

03:28:30.860 yeah um yeah you know uh hopefully they turned out uh okay um but so they got all that going on

03:28:39.280 And now we're kind of winding down towards the end of the case.

03:28:42.760 So I didn't know.

03:28:44.560 You're still going.

03:28:45.680 But I'm in Daytona.

03:28:47.220 And, again, by this time, here's my cocktail.

03:28:50.240 I woke up one morning.

03:28:51.280 I could still feel the whiskey and eggs swishing in my belly. 0.99

03:28:54.440 I felt like a piece of trash. 0.96

03:28:56.360 I'm like, all right, this is it. 0.97

03:28:57.300 I'm working out.

03:28:58.120 So I did like an in-room workout, something like a P90X kind of deal.

03:29:01.320 I'm doing push-ups, sit-ups, squats, burpees, mountain climbers.

03:29:05.320 uh and but before i did that by this time i wake up i take antihistamines decongestants

03:29:13.920 hitting an inhaler uh which is also a vasodilator makes you shake and stuff opens up your lungs

03:29:19.760 then i drank two cups of coffee the strongest coffee i can possibly make and then i uh hit 0.99

03:29:27.440 three hydroxy cuts with ephedrine in them yeah so as i learned later on from the you're a damn 0.97

03:29:31.920 jet ski well from the from what the doctors told me they go uh scott that is a cocktail for an 0.99

03:29:37.560 anxiety attack and that's what happened i started working out and all that shit hit me and i was so

03:29:41.980 beat down like i started hyperventilating um i mean it's humid it's daytona you know yeah but

03:29:49.120 i'm in there but whatever i came up and i forgot all about combat breathing i forgot about you know

03:29:54.480 some people call it was it like four box breathing box breathing same thing you know i forgot about

03:30:00.280 a paper bag i just i turn as white as your shirt and an undercover knocks on the door he was the

03:30:06.120 guy that was playing the truck driver and it just he sees me and i'm just pouring sweat out every

03:30:10.800 pour white as your shirt my lips are all tight and he's like are you okay and i'm like i don't

03:30:15.800 think so so we start talking what i should have done it said i don't feel good i think i'm heading

03:30:22.640 home but i didn't i took a nap i got up self-medicated went back out with the outlaws

03:30:27.960 mongols were there fights breaking out all kinds of stuff and uh but when i flew home from that

03:30:34.560 trip i didn't know it but my body was already done they wanted to expand the case because the

03:30:39.680 guy that was now went by the road named hillbilly who i knew through the case and he liked me and

03:30:45.500 i liked him um he was the southeast regional president at that point and they and they

03:30:51.940 wanted me to come down to they wanted the boston not to take the case down and for me to move to 0.86

03:30:56.940 florida and patch under hillbilly dude i don't care if you meet damn sam elliott from mask bro

03:31:02.480 you love that role dude i've always loved him as a biker better than anything else 0.98

03:31:06.300 but damn man to keep pushing yourself out there like yeah well i wasn't smart and and i mean i 0.98

03:31:12.980 lied and i'm not judging you man no i'm just saying i lied to safeguard like i took the 0.99

03:31:16.680 psychological test and i lied i knew i was exhausted i knew i didn't know how to relax

03:31:20.200 anymore even because it's almost like i'm reading the story and it's like you know it's like oh man

03:31:25.340 it's just that's harrowing

03:31:27.360 it's harrowing

03:31:27.940 and it reminds me of times

03:31:29.280 that I think a lot of us

03:31:30.280 probably a lot of listeners

03:31:31.640 can relate to

03:31:32.400 when they just

03:31:32.880 you know

03:31:33.760 just this thing

03:31:34.360 I gotta keep going

03:31:35.340 and at what cost

03:31:36.760 doesn't matter what you

03:31:37.540 you can be a doctor

03:31:38.200 you can be whatever

03:31:38.940 yes for sure

03:31:39.680 that's what I'm saying

03:31:40.220 you can put

03:31:40.700 yeah you can

03:31:41.220 you can wear yourself out

03:31:43.000 so what happens is

03:31:44.060 I go home

03:31:45.280 I sleep

03:31:46.960 the first day

03:31:47.520 I probably slept 20 hours

03:31:48.600 I wasn't depressed

03:31:50.000 I wasn't sick

03:31:51.540 I know what they both feel like

03:31:52.700 for the rest of the week

03:31:54.900 uh i slept over 16 hours a day so come friday a i still love this guy i don't think he loves me

03:32:03.860 anymore it is what it is uh but we were friends at that point he calls me and my again country

03:32:11.580 he's like he goes how you doing country and that was all he said and i said i'm not doing too good

03:32:16.860 so for the next hour we talk on the phone i'm explaining to him everything's going on

03:32:20.600 and he basically let me convince myself i need to call safeguard so i called and i knew one of

03:32:25.880 the psychologists personally and i called and i said hey uh i don't know what's going on man

03:32:30.340 i'm 30 something years old i'm i'm crashing i don't know what's happening um so they came out

03:32:35.960 and did a on site in other words i didn't have to fly to them they flew to me they did the test i

03:32:41.320 answered it honestly amen um and uh i got put on timeout but what they did is they said and by

03:32:47.280 timeout I mean no more undercover for at least six months but what they did is they said hey

03:32:52.140 for the purpose for this case specifically we'll let you stay on the phone so I make a ruse I'd

03:33:00.460 already told him that I'd gotten married so I'd make up a story that hey me and my wife are getting

03:33:05.140 divorced her family's in El Paso I gotta re I gotta get this house finished I gotta relocate

03:33:10.540 her and the kids out there because I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror again if I

03:33:14.100 didn't got it and you got you got father scott town's a loving father four daughter you got

03:33:18.760 and they're like they all they're like oh yeah oh we got it man i said but as soon as i get them

03:33:22.560 there i'm coming north i'm sick of this heat amen so we just kept talking and during that there was

03:33:28.320 one other guy that we didn't get but he was calling me and he was like he just got out of

03:33:32.280 prison recently and he was an outlaw and he's like hey man i heard about you know we'd met before

03:33:36.860 scott town introduced us but he's like i got a hummer i got this 100 000 bmw i need to get rid

03:33:42.400 of and he starts talking about cocaine and he's like hey um you know what kind of business i'm in

03:33:47.800 i said i can maybe take a guess and he goes i'm into that magic powder and i said the white he

03:33:53.120 said yeah so cocaine yeah and he said yeah and he says how much can you get me uh basically a kilo

03:33:59.220 for and i said and he said if you can get me a kilo at 18 a piece i got enough to buy 10 right

03:34:05.400 now he had 180 grand ready to go and um of course i call the case team and i go do you guys want me

03:34:13.600 to pursue this and they said your friend though right well this guy i met he wasn't like scott

03:34:19.040 town introduced me to him his name was tim sylvia not ufc tim sylvia but yeah but who is a friend

03:34:24.960 but tim sylvia the outlaw and uh so what happens is is i broker the deal for my truck driver and

03:34:34.400 another undercover who always just he didn't always but by half of the case he would sit in

03:34:38.380 the passenger seat um and they go like I'm literally in my garage in McAllen and I'm on

03:34:45.540 the phone with Tim Sylvie and I'm on the phone with him I'm going he's over here and I'm guiding

03:34:49.240 them in to meet each other well when they meet each other you can hear the other undercovers

03:34:53.140 talking even if you see the recording from the back of the semi truck you can even hear me on

03:34:58.400 the phone they're calling uh the truck driver calls me he's like text okay what's going on man

03:35:04.440 uh we're calling him tony hey tony man he's like yeah he goes uh i'm here and he goes i'm with he

03:35:09.820 goes what's your name again yeah tim silly he goes tell him it's big timmy i go okay and he says uh

03:35:13.820 they're going back and forth he goes hey he wants to talk to you so tim gets on the phone and i say

03:35:18.300 hey um you got the same vehicles yeah i'd agree to pay him 21 grand uh for the vehicles that i was

03:35:24.700 buying from him stolen um and he says uh i said when are you going to report the bmw stolen because

03:35:30.900 i had a tracker on he said friday i said can you make it saturday i'm just trying to make it real

03:35:34.620 right i said can you make it saturday give me one more day and it'll be in mexico for sure

03:35:38.060 and he says absolutely so then i get back on the phone with the undercover and the undercover says

03:35:42.960 how much am i supposed to pay him i said 21 grand so when they go to load the vehicles uh on the

03:35:48.920 stolen vehicles onto the truck tim hits them and says can you guys get 10 kilos at 18 a piece

03:35:54.960 and they said yes and that's how we ended the case i was drawing up diagrams of all the club

03:36:01.040 houses and houses i'd been in for all the swat teams that were going to be hitting it and stuff

03:36:04.460 which was nerve-wracking to me because i'm a tactical guy and i'm like well what if i get

03:36:07.540 this wrong and somebody gets hurt and then um also my scott and myself uh with another guy had

03:36:16.860 we're creating our own motorcycle club called the righteous few it had already been approved by

03:36:21.180 the president the national president of the outlaws to be the number one support club for

03:36:25.000 the outlaws in the northeast um all i had to do was go back up one more time and i'd have got my

03:36:29.200 cut but you know it is what it is um yeah you were also you were not done yeah i was done you 0.99

03:36:34.660 weren't even being real it would have been cool yeah you know ego wise oh yeah for sure but damn 0.98

03:36:40.220 bro this whole thing's insane so we're taking down the case i'm actually at an undercover school 0.98

03:36:46.100 teaching um i wasn't there i'm pretty sure safeguard said i couldn't go and this one you're

03:36:50.500 just doing stuff on the phone still okay yeah and how do we get to the end this is it okay because

03:36:55.180 they said they were going to deliver the 10 kilos that's going to be a reversal and that's going to

03:36:59.140 be the first arrest right so when they show up when tim sylvia shows up to deliver the hummer

03:37:05.960 and to get whatever swat team's going to take him down right he's got the money and all this stuff

03:37:10.580 SWAT team's gonna take him down and that starts all the arrest happening um so I can't tell you

03:37:17.220 what time it was in Nevada where I was at versus what time it was I don't know about three hours

03:37:22.560 behind or whatever um from Massachusetts but I go back to my room and these are long nights at the

03:37:29.040 UC school like I told you I go back to my room and my phone's chirping and I listen and it's a

03:37:33.660 message from Scott Town and I chirp him up and I go hey what's up and he says he's all raspy

03:37:40.200 voice he goes hey i just want you to know somebody just called me your truck drivers tony and that

03:37:44.100 other dude and big scotty big t uh big timmy they got locked up and i'm like okay and he goes i just

03:37:53.100 wanted to let you know and i said well you know they're not up there for something for me i said

03:37:57.540 but sometimes they do things on the side for themselves he said listen i'm gonna go to something

03:38:02.480 to affect it like this he said listen i'm gonna go to i'm gonna get up i'm gonna get showered up

03:38:06.120 and I'm going to find out what's going on

03:38:07.960 and I'm going to call you back

03:38:08.780 and I said okay

03:38:10.200 and our last words to each other

03:38:12.480 he said I love you brother

03:38:14.140 and I said I love you too

03:38:15.340 and about 40 minutes later

03:38:17.140 a SWAT team hit his house

03:38:18.120 and he went to prison

03:38:19.140 they all pled guilty

03:38:20.860 you ever talk to him again?

03:38:27.800 it's very possible

03:38:28.800 I can either confirm or deny

03:38:30.120 but since

03:38:31.400 since the

03:38:34.340 New York Times bestseller

03:38:36.540 and being on

03:38:37.560 a podcast or two.

03:38:40.860 Yeah.

03:38:45.460 The bond was real.

03:38:46.940 The bond was real?

03:38:47.720 Was real.

03:38:48.720 Like how happy is the ending?

03:38:50.380 Like I'm just wanting to like...

03:38:52.040 It's pretty good so far.

03:38:53.160 Is it?

03:38:53.520 Yeah, pretty good.

03:38:54.500 Yeah, really good.

03:38:55.360 So you guys still communicate often?

03:38:58.140 Mm-hmm.

03:38:59.040 Yeah.

03:38:59.640 Like in what type of manner

03:39:00.760 do you feel like?

03:39:03.200 Call me.

03:39:03.800 whatever

03:39:04.620 I will tell you

03:39:06.140 that Chocolate Scott

03:39:06.860 started troubling me

03:39:08.140 and he'll probably

03:39:08.720 get a kick out of this

03:39:09.580 he did?

03:39:10.400 yeah

03:39:10.600 he started

03:39:11.020 all of a sudden

03:39:11.620 you know how

03:39:11.900 somebody finds you

03:39:12.640 on Instagram

03:39:13.200 and they start

03:39:14.380 liking all your stuff

03:39:15.360 and it's like

03:39:15.860 from six months prior

03:39:16.920 but you start

03:39:17.360 getting all these

03:39:17.840 dings

03:39:18.180 ding ding ding

03:39:18.920 like they liked

03:39:19.500 your real

03:39:19.880 liked your

03:39:20.220 well it was like 1.00

03:39:21.140 this guy sucks 1.00

03:39:22.460 screw you 1.00

03:39:23.800 oh Chocolate Scott 0.99

03:39:25.120 yeah

03:39:25.640 Chocolate Scott

03:39:27.120 is like that

03:39:27.700 dude

03:39:28.040 so he

03:39:29.420 Chocolate Scott

03:39:30.140 is me Chocolate Scott

03:39:31.060 you know

03:39:31.520 so

03:39:32.560 i almost wish i knew him actually so here's the thing i he's like he's like hitting me with like 0.99

03:39:37.960 yeah you suck you f this you know this and the other and i saw it and it was like i could kind 0.97

03:39:43.020 of see the picture but i saw that it was doom 666 and i'm like who the hell is it i don't respond 0.99

03:39:47.820 to negative stuff but i'm like because most of the time you're arguing with an algorithm anyway 0.60

03:39:51.480 it's some ai you're arguing against it's not even a real person yeah some pervert but i click on it 0.73

03:39:56.300 and i open it up and it's chocolate scott and and for his instagram it says f you scott pain you 0.99

03:40:01.940 big bitch so he really but he's got a right to be pissed i know i know man but i could i giggled 0.98

03:40:08.860 because i could totally see him high laughing typing that stuff you know uh but the last thing 0.98

03:40:13.700 he put out there that uh that before i blocked him uh is he put he actually validated me because

03:40:19.280 a lot of people are like oh you're making this up i'm like dude pull pull the court records pull

03:40:23.640 the reports it's in there the recordings that happen i don't know what you may tell you i'm

03:40:28.220 not making it up it's there but he put he put he would go he found another one he goes i've seen

03:40:35.260 this guy naked in the basement not much there all right so i so wanted to respond because the first

03:40:41.300 thing i was going to say is you're still picturing me naked in the basement from 2006 yeah must have

03:40:46.980 been tough in prison second thing i would have said is i don't find you or clothesline attractive

03:40:53.020 The third thing I would have said is, it was very, very cold in that basement.

03:40:59.560 Yeah, and it's in Massachusetts.

03:41:01.440 Yeah, and the fourth thing I would have said is, I thought I was getting ready to die.

03:41:04.880 And that's a whole new level of shrinkage.

03:41:06.620 The last thing I was concerned about is what I look like naked.

03:41:09.360 Oh, I can't even stay erect around that in broken glass.

03:41:13.440 You know, I hear a window shatter.

03:41:16.040 Dude, I won't get hard for a month.

03:41:18.800 That's just who I am.

03:41:19.840 My dad was the same way.

03:41:21.060 Yeah.

03:41:22.520 Did Towns go to jail?

03:41:24.940 Yeah.

03:41:25.840 Yeah, we pretty much dismantled the whole Taunton chapter.

03:41:29.480 I don't know if it's back up, but yeah, we pretty much got everybody.

03:41:31.600 Have you seen him since he went in?

03:41:32.980 Mm-mm.

03:41:33.600 Nope.

03:41:33.960 No.

03:41:34.260 How long will he be in for?

03:41:35.440 He's out.

03:41:36.080 Oh, he's out now?

03:41:36.620 Yeah, he's out.

03:41:37.100 So you haven't seen him since he got out either?

03:41:38.380 Mm-mm.

03:41:38.760 Okay, got it.

03:41:39.720 No.

03:41:40.080 How long has he been out for?

03:41:41.640 I don't know.

03:41:42.380 I don't know if he did six or eight.

03:41:45.300 And let's just say, I think we arrested, I think we took that case down in 2008.

03:41:49.100 Got it.

03:41:49.440 But let's see if it says.

03:41:53.140 The Outlaw's MC Taunton chapter is no longer active,

03:41:55.560 having been effectively dismantled following a major federal sweep.

03:41:58.800 Woo-hoo.

03:41:59.660 There you go.

03:42:02.400 Did you have to miss a lot of things?

03:42:05.120 Yeah.

03:42:05.460 Like a lot of family stuff?

03:42:06.460 Yeah.

03:42:07.220 You missed a lot of, like, birthdays, things like that?

03:42:09.180 I did pretty good with that,

03:42:10.800 but I missed, like, some recitals and stuff like that.

03:42:13.220 Yeah.

03:42:13.440 Or Father's Day, you know,

03:42:15.040 because it might be putting on the undercover school.

03:42:17.180 they might be being on the on the case because like I said you kind of go where the case takes

03:42:21.680 you um if you get an opening to go to Sturgis with the I mean yeah that's yeah no I mean it's

03:42:28.960 all it's just so it's so fascinating you know because life itself you're kind of we're all

03:42:33.300 trying to be ourselves and and then to go into life and then go into another life kind of you

03:42:38.820 know like an other exist you know like yeah my my big uh my big uh I guess my my Clark Kent walking

03:42:46.800 into a phone booth and coming out of superman is i i have a cross on my necklace and before i would

03:42:53.240 go undercover i'd take the cross off and it'd either be it would either be a norse you know

03:42:58.060 like thor's hammer but for most of it it was just a skull but that was kind of my thing like i'd go

03:43:04.320 back in i'd take the skull off put the cross back on it was kind of like me saying trying trying to

03:43:10.160 leave it there and now i'm scott again but truthfully the the job creeped in all the time

03:43:16.420 I mean, how's it not going to when I'm on an undercover call

03:43:19.460 and my daughter's chasing me through the house

03:43:21.040 and I'm trying not to let her hear me cuss

03:43:22.920 because I'm on the phone with a bad guy, you know?

03:43:24.600 For sure.

03:43:26.360 Are you ever, before you go, Scott,

03:43:28.240 are you ever worried about somebody coming back from the past,

03:43:31.480 something coming back to haunches?

03:43:32.760 It could happen, yeah.

03:43:34.820 Retaliation?

03:43:35.940 Yeah, you know, I'm not trying to be a tough guy or nothing like that,

03:43:39.100 but I do have a belief system.

03:43:41.120 And for me, I mean, I wouldn't want any family members

03:43:46.580 or anything like that to be in fear.

03:43:49.320 Usually, for me, your best defense is a good offense.

03:43:52.340 That's me.

03:43:53.340 Like, just being a uniformed cop, how many people in your town

03:43:57.260 do you think you arrest in a year?

03:43:59.320 And do you, I mean, they're not all like felony charge.

03:44:01.100 They back out.

03:44:01.820 That's a good point.

03:44:02.380 So how many times as a uniformed cop do you go to the mall

03:44:05.740 or to a movie theater or to the grocery store

03:44:07.680 and you run into people that you've like,

03:44:08.900 it might have been somebody you had to fight.

03:44:10.640 Amen.

03:44:11.120 You know, so.

03:44:11.860 I never thought about that.

03:44:12.560 And I just walk right up to them.

03:44:14.000 That's me.

03:44:14.440 I'd see them and I'd go, if they're eyeballing, I'm not even going to let them plot.

03:44:18.200 I'm just going to go right up and go.

03:44:19.280 Good game.

03:44:19.860 Hey, no, I'm going to be like, brother, how are you doing?

03:44:22.580 When did you get out? 0.99

03:44:23.520 Oh, damn. 0.99

03:44:24.300 How's the family, man? 0.99

03:44:25.360 Hey, are you clean right now?

03:44:26.460 Are you good?

03:44:27.000 How are you doing?

03:44:27.940 Listen, as long as you're on that, up and, you know, straight and narrow, on the right path, I'll help you.

03:44:33.260 And I have.

03:44:33.840 I've actually, people that I put in jail, that I infiltrated, put in jail, but they've taken a turn for the better.

03:44:39.520 i at their sentencing i wrote uh an acknowledgement letter or a letter for their character amen so

03:44:46.040 they and they got probation instead of going to jail so that's not a i mean no it's you know it's

03:44:51.380 if you get for me for the most part what i've found because i do really make friendships i mean

03:44:57.960 you're creating relationships but you're betraying them a little i mean you're going to be betraying

03:45:01.520 them if you're undercover yeah um but it's almost like the old bugs bunny cartoon you got the cheap

03:45:09.020 dog and you got the coyote and it's ralph and sam and they clock in in the morning and all day the 0.99

03:45:13.660 coyote's trying to steal sheep and all day the shit the sheep dogs beating the crap i'm trying 0.99

03:45:17.960 to get and at the end of the day they clock out see you in the morning sam see you in the morning 0.99

03:45:22.600 ralph it's just you know i i've been told i've been told this if you were a biker and and you

03:45:30.800 were part of the club and you snitched they'd never forgive me but i was just doing my job

03:45:34.700 so you see that a lot professional snitch i'm not a snitch i'm not i'm you know i'm a bonded

03:45:41.880 law enforcement officer and we had reports of you doing criminal stuff and i infiltrated you

03:45:47.960 and or somebody did and we found evidence of that criminal stuff if you're not doing anything wrong

03:45:52.440 don't worry about it yeah um do do they ever oh just this is kind of like a question almost like

03:45:58.040 the movies do they ever bring retired agents in for like you know they ever try and get you back

03:46:03.100 out there for one more show oh yeah yeah but you would be if you're a retired agent because you're

03:46:08.060 retired now yeah yeah i mean you could come back in as a source that's a that's a whole different

03:46:12.100 ball game though but they're never like scow we got to wheel you out one more time here you know

03:46:16.020 not now i'm overt now man you know what i mean oh yeah people know now i know anybody ever told

03:46:23.180 you like matt damon you know what as a matter of fact the other day somebody did and as soon as

03:46:28.380 they pulled up the picture I went dang you know yeah who would have thunk it uh no I mean no I

03:46:34.520 mean it could happen but once I was done I mean obviously I mean you do Rolling Stone magazine

03:46:39.680 and then this and yeah would you do it again absolutely absolutely man but you know okay

03:46:45.860 they always say man you'll know when it's time to retire I thought I was going to work to 57 I

03:46:50.840 thought I'd be the undercover coordinator for the state of Tennessee and maybe I could extend

03:46:54.580 because that's a skill set that a lot of people don't have in the Bureau

03:47:02.240 as opposed to being a tactical instructor.

03:47:04.480 I mean, there's a lot of tactical instructors,

03:47:06.260 but I thought I was going to stay until 57.

03:47:08.700 But after the base case, I was like, man, I had to get the back lumbar.

03:47:13.220 I got a lumbar fusion.

03:47:14.780 A week and a half after the lumbar fusion,

03:47:16.420 I got Tammy talking about PVC pipes and everything else in my truck.

03:47:21.780 And you just start thinking. 1.00

03:47:22.840 She loves to torture people. 1.00

03:47:23.960 Yeah, I know. 1.00

03:47:24.580 like torture you like torture i like torture i love shit you need somebody torture you call me 0.99

03:47:28.860 i swear i know that torture but uh the thing is is i i was 48 going on to 50 0.99

03:47:35.160 how many more oh how many more bait like i can't go i mean if okay now i'm gonna look like a

03:47:42.520 pedophile oh there's an old dude buying beer for young boys and he's teaching them widespread no

03:47:48.260 i'm not but how can i infiltrate 17 year olds right you know and you just start realizing

03:47:52.520 just one day it hit me and it was right after the base case it was in february we took it down

03:47:57.160 january of 2020 february of 2020 i'm in phoenix arizona we're putting on training we're training

03:48:02.660 online covered employees for domestic terrorism and i don't know what we were discussing about

03:48:07.900 i don't know what it was i know it was my birthday um but i just this overwhelming feeling

03:48:14.440 hit me in the face like a brick i can't remember what we're talking about but i remember like

03:48:18.820 everything just kind of going calming down and me saying this in my head i'm satisfied with my

03:48:24.100 career yeah never said it before not saying i've done everything but if i do something now i'm just

03:48:30.440 starting right back over i'm like i think holy cow i'm okay i think i'm okay amen yeah well

03:48:36.980 scott pain man boom big country it's medium country thank you so much for coming in man 1.00

03:48:44.040 Scott Payne, bitch. 1.00

03:48:45.760 Codename Pale Horse. 1.00

03:48:46.900 That's his book. 0.79

03:48:49.940 How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis.

03:48:53.240 I was going to say, and the paperback's out now.

03:48:54.720 Sorry.

03:48:55.280 Oh, nice.

03:48:55.680 And the paperback is out now.

03:48:57.420 Is that true, Scott?

03:48:57.980 Yes, true.

03:48:58.820 Thank you so much for being here today with us, man.

03:49:01.520 Thanks for sharing your stories.

03:49:03.500 Yeah, dude, what a fascinating existence you've had so far, man.

03:49:07.760 We appreciate your time, brother.

03:49:09.000 Thank you so much.

03:49:09.840 Give our best to your family, man.

03:49:12.240 Will do.

03:49:13.000 Yeah.

03:49:13.880 Scott Payne, thank you, bro.

03:49:14.860 Thank you, bud.

03:49:15.360 Now I'm just floating on the breeze

03:49:18.040 And I feel I'm falling like these leaves

03:49:21.000 I must be cornerstone

03:49:24.320 Oh, but when I reach that ground

03:49:28.880 I'll share this peace of mind

03:49:31.040 I found I can feel it in my bones

03:49:35.220 But it's gonna tell you

This Past Weekend with Theo Von - August 10, 2026

#674 - Scott Payne

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