Timcast IRL - Tim Pool - September 04, 2026


Lindsay Clancy Case Declared MISTRIAL, Lawyers REACT | Timcast IRL


Episode Stats


Length

2 hours and 14 minutes

Words per minute

220.14

Word count

29,689

Sentence count

2,950


Transcript

Transcripts from "Timcast IRL - Tim Pool" are sourced from the Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool. Explore them interactively here.
00:01:05.000 Welcome to Tim Cast IRL.
00:01:07.000 We are currently waiting the final verdict.
00:01:10.000 I don't think we're going to get a verdict, but as of the pre record, we're doing this on a Friday.
00:01:15.000 We are minutes away from the judge in the Lindsey Clancy case coming out and telling us what's going to happen.
00:01:20.000 Now, the judge did say he was going to declare a mistrial, but the defense asked for an emergency one hour appeal citing the Americans with Disabilities Act, I guess insinuating that the juror is discriminating against Lindsey Clancy for being paralyzed, which obviously is a long shot.
00:01:37.000 But this defense.
00:01:40.000 Is really going for it.
00:01:41.000 So it's looking like it's going to be a mistrial, but we will see.
00:01:44.000 So it's going to happen in real time right now.
00:01:45.000 We've got it pulled up.
00:01:47.000 We've got a bunch to talk about.
00:01:48.000 We've got a full packed house.
00:01:50.000 Joining us, the return of the legend, Richie McGinnis.
00:01:54.000 Thanks for having me, Tim.
00:01:55.000 Who are you?
00:01:56.000 Richie McGinnis.
00:01:56.000 What do you do?
00:01:57.000 I was actually a witness in a different murder trial, Kyle Rittenhouse.
00:02:02.000 And I work with Matt over at Politibrawl, and I'm the author of Riot Diet, in which I cover a lot of that situation over there in Kenosha.
00:02:09.000 And.
00:02:10.000 I'm happy to be here.
00:02:11.000 It's good to have you both back.
00:02:11.000 Right on.
00:02:12.000 Richard, it's been a minute.
00:02:13.000 And we got a couple of lawyers joining us to talk about what's going on.
00:02:16.000 Hey, I'm Ashley Merchant.
00:02:17.000 I'm a criminal defense attorney out of Atlanta, Georgia.
00:02:19.000 And I'm also the host of the MK True Crime podcast.
00:02:23.000 Andrew Branca, also a criminal defense attorney over at lawselfdefense.com.
00:02:27.000 Do a lot of political commentary as well at The Branca Show on XN YouTube.
00:02:32.000 And the boys.
00:02:33.000 Pshh.
00:02:34.000 Sup.
00:02:35.000 Hey, Carter.
00:02:36.000 I'm hanging out here with Carter.
00:02:37.000 Do you have a camera?
00:02:38.000 His camera's off.
00:02:39.000 You know what?
00:02:39.000 It's cocked a little bit.
00:02:40.000 I'm going to go fix that in a second.
00:02:41.000 You can actually.
00:02:42.000 Cock.
00:02:43.000 Yeah, me and Ian are.
00:02:44.000 We just started the show, Ian.
00:02:45.000 That's true.
00:02:46.000 Carter said it.
00:02:46.000 Carter said it.
00:02:47.000 Sure.
00:02:48.000 I'm just pointing it out.
00:02:50.000 So we're hanging out.
00:02:51.000 The big news of the day, of course, everybody is waiting with bated breath on the outcome of this Lindsey Clancy jury.
00:02:56.000 The last we heard, there's one guy who is like, he's not budging, so they can't get a unanimous verdict.
00:03:03.000 Now, the defense said, can we pull the jury and see what they're hung up on?
00:03:07.000 Because there's a potentiality.
00:03:08.000 He might agree she's not guilty on most of the charges, maybe some others, but.
00:03:14.000 It doesn't seem like that's going to happen.
00:03:16.000 We don't know for sure, but that's why we brought these lawyers in so we can talk about what's going on.
00:03:21.000 And we actually did a show a minute ago about more of the nuances in court and all this stuff.
00:03:25.000 But as it pertains to the news, what do you think we're going to see as of the latest development?
00:03:29.000 Well, I think he's trying.
00:03:30.000 I think Kevin Reddington's trying desperately to find some judge who's willing to stay this case and let him get this jury on the record as to what they're doing for first degree.
00:03:39.000 So there's multiple different charges.
00:03:41.000 There's first degree, which is the one that actually carries the most penalty, carries life without parole.
00:03:45.000 Than their second degree.
00:03:46.000 And I think what Kevin Reddington wants is he wants a verdict of not guilty on those.
00:03:50.000 Because if he gets that and then he gets a hung jury on the other charges, all they can go back to trial on are the other charges.
00:03:57.000 So, in a perfect world for him, if he had to try the case again, he'd only have to do it on a manslaughter.
00:04:03.000 We got some lawyers here with opinions on how the law works, but let's ask the boys what you guys think.
00:04:07.000 You guys are unrelated to law.
00:04:10.000 Guilty or not guilty?
00:04:11.000 I'd say not guilty because she threw herself out of a window and paralyzed herself from the neck down.
00:04:16.000 Like, that's her placement.
00:04:18.000 It's the placement.
00:04:18.000 You would stay on my jury.
00:04:20.000 It's the waist down, though, right?
00:04:21.000 I had my jury.
00:04:23.000 It's the waist down, right?
00:04:24.000 Oh, I thought it was the neck down.
00:04:25.000 If she hadn't tried to kill herself, if she just killed three kids and was sitting there rocking in the corner, put her and sent her away.
00:04:30.000 Yeah, but what if she was trying to jump out the window to make it look like it was a suicide attempt and she didn't actually expect to break her back?
00:04:36.000 Like shooting herself in the foot to get out of the window.
00:04:38.000 When she jumped out, how did she jump out?
00:04:38.000 Wait, wait, wait.
00:04:40.000 Did she land on her butt?
00:04:41.000 It's disputed.
00:04:43.000 That is highly disputed.
00:04:44.000 You're about to get into some Patrick Clancy conspiracy theories with that.
00:04:47.000 That is a big dispute.
00:04:48.000 Really?
00:04:48.000 People think that he pushed her out and that's why she landed the way she did.
00:04:52.000 Because apparently, how she landed, they're saying, Couldn't have happened if she actually jumped out the window.
00:04:57.000 Maybe she'd like a gainer.
00:04:58.000 So I was about to say that is some major Patrick Clancy conspiracy theory.
00:05:01.000 He like jumped in front of her.
00:05:02.000 I mean, there are people on TikTok that like mapped out where her butt hit.
00:05:05.000 Oh, I love it.
00:05:06.000 We should pull it up.
00:05:07.000 Oh, my God.
00:05:08.000 Seriously, if you look up how she landed, you're going to find a ton of Patrick Clancy.
00:05:11.000 I just pulled up threads.
00:05:13.000 I'm not going to first post all of this stuff.
00:05:18.000 Patrick did this.
00:05:20.000 They were too lazy to actually investigate like they should have.
00:05:23.000 He did some shady stuff on his trip that night.
00:05:26.000 A phone handoff?
00:05:27.000 I am a little upset about the investigation.
00:05:30.000 And I do hear that.
00:05:31.000 I mean, the jury wants some answers.
00:05:32.000 And that's what fueled these conspiracies.
00:05:34.000 They didn't do any DNA testing, they didn't do anything.
00:05:36.000 There's three dead kids.
00:05:37.000 Like, do your job.
00:05:39.000 I have kids, I think, guilty.
00:05:40.000 Just lock her up, throw away the key, electric chair, whatever.
00:05:43.000 Just because you hate what she did.
00:05:45.000 We're big fans of the Oublie.
00:05:46.000 I mean, look, and I was like, having testified in the Rittenhouse trial, I saw how little the facts mattered for many people out there.
00:05:55.000 And you're seeing something similar with what's going on on TikTok here.
00:05:57.000 But I mean, I just can't have any other opinion other than that.
00:06:01.000 I think most people can't get past that.
00:06:03.000 Past what?
00:06:03.000 That's the problem.
00:06:04.000 Past the fact that she killed her three kids.
00:06:06.000 And I mean, it's, I mean, other than the conspiracy theories, that's not really in dispute.
00:06:09.000 But just legally, I think if the jury follows the law, they're going to have to find her not guilty.
00:06:14.000 What about her like Googling all of the different stuff beforehand and that implying some degree of premeditation?
00:06:21.000 Doesn't that imply that she's not as insane as she definitely, I mean, I think there's a degree of premeditation because she did plan these out.
00:06:27.000 It's whether or not she planned them out while she was in psychosis or she planned them out because she wanted them dead.
00:06:32.000 So I'll tell you, for me, for me, And a lot of jurors, they want a reason.
00:06:36.000 Why did someone do something?
00:06:37.000 Are you a thug?
00:06:38.000 Are you trying to kill someone?
00:06:40.000 Are you a violent person?
00:06:41.000 Are you a bad person?
00:06:42.000 Do you want your spouse dead?
00:06:43.000 Do you want your kids dead because you hate your kids?
00:06:45.000 She loved her kids.
00:06:46.000 And the testimony was she loved her kids.
00:06:47.000 So for me, that was really lacking.
00:06:49.000 And so it made it much more credible that she had this mental illness because why else is she going to kill her kids?
00:06:54.000 I mean, even her mother in law testified that she loved her kids and was a good mom.
00:06:58.000 Okay, but so then why isn't the thug on the street who stabs a woman to death crazy?
00:07:04.000 Why isn't that psychosis?
00:07:05.000 Right, because he actually has a violent tendency.
00:07:08.000 And so, in cases like that, if he's violent and he's doing this repeatedly, you're going to have testimony that he's violent.
00:07:14.000 Hold on.
00:07:15.000 What was that?
00:07:17.000 You want me to take this sack of silver and beat Richie to death with it?
00:07:23.000 Yes, I'm crazy.
00:07:23.000 Richie, get over here.
00:07:24.000 All right, I'm ready.
00:07:25.000 It's my time.
00:07:26.000 And they'd be like, Tim Pool has never done anything like this before.
00:07:29.000 It's completely out of character.
00:07:30.000 And I'd be like, You saw it on the show.
00:07:32.000 I said, I heard a voice told me to beat him with this.
00:07:34.000 This little case of silver coins.
00:07:36.000 I'd like to see you try.
00:07:37.000 But you're not doing it because you don't want him dead.
00:07:40.000 I don't want Richie dead.
00:07:41.000 No, it's a joke.
00:07:41.000 So the only reason that she would have her kids dead is because she's crazy.
00:07:44.000 Who would bring Corey dead?
00:07:45.000 The argument would be that she actually wanted them dead.
00:07:47.000 That's why, like, the argument with Tim is that he didn't do it because he didn't really want to, but she did it because he wanted to.
00:07:52.000 Oh, wait, wait, wait.
00:07:53.000 No, stop.
00:07:53.000 I don't want to hurt Richie.
00:07:54.000 Don't make me.
00:07:55.000 Because he's not crazy.
00:07:56.000 He's not crazy and he doesn't want him dead.
00:07:59.000 But if he was crazy, you might kill him.
00:08:00.000 There is a small elf standing on your shoulder and I have to destroy it.
00:08:04.000 Were all the kids in the room with her when she was strangling them one by one?
00:08:07.000 No, she took them one at a time to the bed.
00:08:09.000 That kind of indicates, like, after the first one.
00:08:11.000 That's the worst fact, in my opinion.
00:08:12.000 The fact that it was like 13 minutes or something, that's the worst fact.
00:08:15.000 That's where I would have a hard time with that one fact.
00:08:18.000 The husband is on her side.
00:08:20.000 Yeah.
00:08:20.000 So the husband testified for her.
00:08:22.000 So, husband, her ex mother in law testified.
00:08:25.000 I mean, these are people that should hate her.
00:08:27.000 She killed their grandkids, she killed his kids.
00:08:29.000 They testified that she was a loving mother.
00:08:31.000 She had no reason she would want her kids dead, loved them, and that she was seriously suffering and had history of mental illness.
00:08:38.000 So, for me, the fact that she didn't want her kids dead and loved her kids.
00:08:42.000 And had mental illness makes it a lot more believable.
00:08:45.000 Faith's rationale was that she wanted to kill herself.
00:08:45.000 Oh my gosh.
00:08:50.000 And she cared so much about how her children were raised.
00:08:52.000 No one could raise her kids like she could.
00:08:55.000 She didn't want them left behind.
00:08:57.000 Right.
00:08:57.000 And if she was going to be dead, she wanted those kids in heaven with her.
00:09:00.000 That was her motivation.
00:09:01.000 And the truth is, I figured it out.
00:09:03.000 I figured it out.
00:09:03.000 Patrick didn't do it.
00:09:05.000 Patrick did it.
00:09:05.000 They did it together.
00:09:07.000 Yeah, they both were like.
00:09:09.000 Let's start that conspiracy theory.
00:09:11.000 Oh, my God.
00:09:11.000 Well, that conspiracy will never fly because all of these women want to defend Lindsay.
00:09:16.000 Have you seen the memes they've posted?
00:09:18.000 There's like a poster and it's like justice for the kids and Lindsay.
00:09:21.000 You got to pull something up.
00:09:23.000 Look at the Bratz doll reenactment.
00:09:25.000 Where is that on X?
00:09:26.000 Y'all haven't seen it.
00:09:28.000 Oh, my God.
00:09:29.000 My paralegal found it.
00:09:32.000 How do I find it?
00:09:32.000 I can send it to you.
00:09:33.000 Wait, I think I've.
00:09:36.000 Is this.
00:09:36.000 I bet you found it.
00:09:37.000 Is it the TikTok lady?
00:09:39.000 Yes.
00:09:40.000 Is it this?
00:09:41.000 Yes!
00:09:41.000 Yes!
00:09:42.000 Oh my god, y'all.
00:09:44.000 Oh, it's so quiet.
00:09:45.000 It's one of the craziest things I've ever seen.
00:09:46.000 On today's episode of The Women of the World v. Patrick Clancy, I'm going to prove that Lindsey Clancy's bedroom was staged using brat stalls and a shoebox reconstruction of the crime scene because I noticed something that absolutely nobody else has noticed, not even the blood experts.
00:10:00.000 And if they did notice, they strategically omitted it from their testimony because it proves.
00:10:05.000 That Lindsay Clancy is innocent.
00:10:07.000 I've managed to semi accurately dress Lindsay in a black tank top and jeans.
00:10:10.000 I'm telling you, Lindsay Clancy.
00:10:11.000 But unfortunately, my male brush top didn't come with a weaker jawline, and he doesn't have accurate clothing to what Patrick was wearing other than the first pair of shoes.
00:10:19.000 Let's do a quick tour.
00:10:20.000 This is the doorway.
00:10:21.000 This is the navy shelves.
00:10:22.000 This represents the mirror.
00:10:25.000 Blood spot A.
00:10:26.000 This represents the pillow next to the mirror.
00:10:28.000 I've just depicted using just a pencil here just for reference.
00:10:32.000 Blood spot B. Blood spot C.
00:10:35.000 And our drawers.
00:10:37.000 Along with our knife.
00:10:39.000 And I've roughly indicated where the cups were and the spray bottles on the bedside table there.
00:10:46.000 Then we have our Lindsay.
00:10:47.000 I would hire her to put the phone on the bed.
00:10:49.000 Excuse the old vintage phone.
00:10:51.000 Wasn't really a thing back when Brad's was.
00:10:53.000 Showing this to the jury and, like, just give me a minute.
00:10:55.000 Like, here's the plausible evidence.
00:11:00.000 Women on the jury would buy it.
00:11:02.000 This is 10 minutes long, so.
00:11:05.000 Oh, yeah.
00:11:06.000 She does a lot of work.
00:11:08.000 You don't need to watch the whole thing.
00:11:12.000 You get the flavor already.
00:11:13.000 From here.
00:11:14.000 From the exterior.
00:11:15.000 I assume there was no video of the strangulations.
00:11:17.000 His wrist is now.
00:11:18.000 Can they tap her phone to listen to the strangulations?
00:11:23.000 That's interesting.
00:11:24.000 I mean, they didn't do much of anything, but she even had her phone.
00:11:24.000 They didn't do that.
00:11:28.000 Could the defense have said to the female jurors, this is the women of the world versus Patrick Clancy?
00:11:33.000 No.
00:11:34.000 I think they might have gotten under direction for that if they did that a little bit.
00:11:37.000 Yeah.
00:11:37.000 I didn't watch the case, but was it really just about sympathy for the human of Lindsey Clancy?
00:11:42.000 No, so what it really was about was the battle of the experts.
00:11:45.000 So in Massachusetts, the state has to essentially disprove that she's insane.
00:11:51.000 I mean, they use a different term, they use criminal responsibility, but they had to disprove that beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:11:55.000 Can the defense not entertain another killer?
00:11:59.000 Or no, because she admitted it.
00:12:00.000 She said she did.
00:12:01.000 I mean, she admitted it, but if you look at the conspiracy theorists, when she admitted it, she was heavily medicated, intubated.
00:12:09.000 I mean, she didn't admit it when she was.
00:12:10.000 That proves it.
00:12:12.000 So, if I was in Massachusetts and got high and then killed someone, I could say I was crazy.
00:12:17.000 No, you can't get high and do it.
00:12:18.000 That, no.
00:12:19.000 But I'm talking about with psychiatric.
00:12:20.000 Wait, wait, no, no, no.
00:12:21.000 I was just trying.
00:12:21.000 Hold on.
00:12:22.000 No, no, no.
00:12:22.000 He's onto something.
00:12:23.000 What if I drugged Ian and then Ian killed the guy?
00:12:27.000 Oh, you could totally use that.
00:12:28.000 Yes.
00:12:30.000 It's like a doctor.
00:12:30.000 Really?
00:12:32.000 If he drugged you and you didn't know it, oh, yeah.
00:12:35.000 What if a doctor gave me prescription?
00:12:36.000 That's involuntary manslaughter.
00:12:37.000 What if it was accidental?
00:12:39.000 You drugged him accidentally?
00:12:40.000 Yep.
00:12:41.000 I was, I had some.
00:12:42.000 It doesn't matter.
00:12:43.000 It only matters what happened to him.
00:12:44.000 No, no, no, no.
00:12:44.000 As long as he wasn't.
00:12:46.000 As long as he didn't drug himself.
00:12:47.000 But then there's no criminal culpability on me either.
00:12:48.000 Right.
00:12:49.000 You're good then.
00:12:49.000 So I had my medication prescribed to me.
00:12:52.000 And when I opened it, a pill fell out and landed in his cup.
00:12:55.000 He didn't know and drank it, lost his mind, and killed somebody.
00:12:58.000 You're both good.
00:13:00.000 But if you did it on purpose, you go down for whatever he did.
00:13:03.000 Of course.
00:13:04.000 You go down for murder.
00:13:05.000 On the basis of Tim Castiral Explains How to Get Away with Murder.
00:13:07.000 You go down for murder then.
00:13:08.000 Not if it was an accident.
00:13:09.000 That's why I asked.
00:13:10.000 She was high on pharmaceuticals, correct?
00:13:13.000 I think that there's a huge angle there.
00:13:13.000 I think so.
00:13:15.000 But the problem was they said they were therapeutic amounts, meaning that they weren't, like, she didn't take them outside of the recommended doses.
00:13:21.000 Who said they were therapeutic?
00:13:23.000 The doctors.
00:13:23.000 The doctors.
00:13:24.000 So they did blood tests.
00:13:25.000 The experts, they actually did a blood test and said, when I say therapeutic, meaning, you know, what she was prescribed.
00:13:30.000 So she didn't, like, overdose on the meds.
00:13:32.000 But she was on them and they were psychotropic meds and they were taking them off and on.
00:13:36.000 And here's the other thing that I think was important.
00:13:38.000 So she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and they gave her all these SSRIs.
00:13:41.000 SSRIs are the antidepressants, they drive you into mania if you don't have the other side.
00:13:47.000 So, like, the doctors were pumping her full of the SSRIs.
00:13:50.000 And if she really was bipolar, that'll drive a person into mania.
00:13:53.000 So, will they charge the doctors?
00:13:54.000 The other factor was she went to like six different doctors.
00:13:57.000 Yeah.
00:13:57.000 They didn't know about each other.
00:13:59.000 So they're each prescribing their own set of.
00:14:01.000 Oh, wait, we got something here.
00:14:03.000 The filing.
00:14:05.000 I'm pulling it up.
00:14:06.000 Oh, the lawsuit.
00:14:07.000 Yeah, I saw Fox had it, but they had it on one page.
00:14:09.000 Yeah, Fox.
00:14:09.000 Oh, the appeal?
00:14:10.000 The defense attorney Kevin Reddington's appeal.
00:14:14.000 The court's refusal to consider evidence that a juror is refusing to file applicable law.
00:14:18.000 Yada, yada, yada.
00:14:19.000 Here, the removal is particularly important because the juror's reasoning reflects a bias against those who suffer from debilitating mental illness.
00:14:24.000 I mean, he's pulling it out at this point.
00:14:27.000 Like, you've got to love that man.
00:14:29.000 Wow.
00:14:30.000 That's who you want if you're charged with a crime.
00:14:32.000 He's amazing at his job.
00:14:33.000 I'd hire this guy.
00:14:34.000 If you're charged with a crime, you want that.
00:14:36.000 So the argument is that.
00:14:40.000 Everyone agrees she's mentally ill.
00:14:42.000 And this guy's choosing not to say not guilty because he's discriminating against the mentally ill.
00:14:47.000 I wonder if there was something else in that note.
00:14:50.000 I will never find a mentally ill person.
00:14:52.000 Or what if you said, just because she's crazy doesn't mean she's not guilty?
00:14:54.000 The whole that juror wasn't writing that.
00:14:56.000 Right, the four person wrote it.
00:14:57.000 So who knows what they wrote.
00:14:59.000 But maybe they said he's claiming that being nuts doesn't excuse you for murder.
00:15:04.000 Maybe.
00:15:05.000 And then they're like, okay, he's holding it against her.
00:15:08.000 This is a wild argument because it's like, it's creative.
00:15:12.000 It basically means that if an expert says you're crazy, everyone has to agree, otherwise, they're discriminating against you.
00:15:17.000 Isn't half the country crazy at this point?
00:15:19.000 More than half?
00:15:20.000 What percentage of the country is on SSRIs?
00:15:21.000 But you mean the female half?
00:15:24.000 Oh, 51% then?
00:15:25.000 51% of the population?
00:15:25.000 Yeah.
00:15:27.000 It's actually just liberals.
00:15:29.000 I'm not joking.
00:15:30.000 What percentage of liberals are on SSRIs?
00:15:32.000 All of them.
00:15:34.000 Dude, if I could get a therapeutic dose of psychotropics from the doctor and kill people and be innocent because.
00:15:40.000 Don't give him ideas.
00:15:41.000 Isn't this a slippery slope?
00:15:42.000 Isn't that what she's doing?
00:15:43.000 So many people are mentally ill.
00:15:45.000 Doesn't this set a dangerous precedent?
00:15:47.000 But if you think about it, I mean, I keep going back to the fact that she doesn't want her kids dead.
00:15:47.000 It does.
00:15:51.000 You know, this is not something that she's taking a pill and then using this as an excuse.
00:15:56.000 Like, she's horrified.
00:15:58.000 And if you watched any of the trial, that lady is horrified.
00:16:00.000 I mean, she wants to kill herself.
00:16:02.000 She has tried to kill herself.
00:16:03.000 Like, she is miserable.
00:16:04.000 She did not want her kids dead.
00:16:06.000 But then why did she work?
00:16:07.000 She worked pretty hard at it.
00:16:09.000 I know, but I fully believe that in a sane mind, she didn't want those kids dead.
00:16:11.000 But just like every other law and every other precedent, if you, okay, good faith, yeah, she didn't want to kill her kids, but aren't there evil people who could exploit that and then create a paper trail that makes.
00:16:21.000 People think they didn't want to kill their kids, but they actually do.
00:16:24.000 And then they kill them and say, Whoops, I'm insane.
00:16:25.000 They could.
00:16:26.000 Whoops.
00:16:27.000 So the difference is, so the difference here, though, is that they had this, the defense actually had some really good experts, like credible experts, experts that work for the state regularly that said she was insane.
00:16:37.000 So, I mean, yeah, you could buy an expert, of course.
00:16:41.000 I mean, you can find an expert that'll say just about anything, but you can't find a good one.
00:16:44.000 And they were really credible.
00:16:45.000 So that's what the state was really.
00:16:46.000 How would they know?
00:16:47.000 Right?
00:16:48.000 They weren't diagnosing her at the time.
00:16:50.000 They're talking to her later.
00:16:51.000 And they can't go back in time and get it in their mind and see somebody else's mental illness.
00:16:56.000 Right.
00:16:56.000 So, to me, that's an inherent impeachment of their testimony.
00:17:01.000 But would you never tell?
00:17:02.000 They're giving what they think is their best guess.
00:17:05.000 But they can't have any degree of certainty.
00:17:06.000 They weren't there.
00:17:07.000 They had a medical degree, is what they said.
00:17:09.000 Medical degree of certainty.
00:17:10.000 But honestly, how would you ever?
00:17:11.000 Mental illness is the best.
00:17:12.000 Well, if she'd been diagnosed with psychosis before she killed her kids, that would be more credible to me, right?
00:17:18.000 It makes it look much less like a fabricated legal defense.
00:17:20.000 Because psychosis was never mentioned until after she killed her kids, got a defense attorney who knew he needed psychosis for the legal defense.
00:17:27.000 That's not true because she was diagnosed with bipolar.
00:17:29.000 Too, which does have psychosis as symptoms, and she had had some hallucinations, but it's not common, she didn't have another one of these really uncommon things, right?
00:17:38.000 It is right.
00:17:39.000 So, having psychosis and being able to plan, very unusual.
00:17:42.000 Can it happen?
00:17:43.000 Yes, but it's very uncommon.
00:17:44.000 Yeah, having bipolar and it's extensive psychosis, very unusual, very uncommon.
00:17:50.000 And when you take uncommon events that only to be strung together like pearls on a string, and everyone's uncommon, and you multiply them out, the fact that that would lead to this kind of insanity that would release criminal culpability that's what I don't find credible.
00:18:02.000 Why can't we just throw people?
00:18:04.000 Who have psychosis in jail along with somebody else?
00:18:06.000 Huh?
00:18:07.000 Oublie.
00:18:08.000 Oublie.
00:18:08.000 Explain it to you.
00:18:09.000 It's a hole.
00:18:10.000 It's a deep hole.
00:18:12.000 And back in ancient France, it means to forget, oublie.
00:18:12.000 Dark.
00:18:15.000 And they would take people and they'd throw them down in this 40 foot pit with rats and other dead bodies that are rotting.
00:18:21.000 Have one of those here.
00:18:22.000 And you'd close it up and walk away.
00:18:25.000 Yeah, oublie.
00:18:26.000 Yeah, you would basically.
00:18:27.000 In today's French law, if you wanted someone to die but you didn't want to kill them publicly, you would put them in the oublie and be like, I guess they died in prison.
00:18:33.000 Oh my God.
00:18:34.000 That's so embarrassing.
00:18:35.000 That seems like a little bit too much.
00:18:36.000 What about an island?
00:18:37.000 Yes.
00:18:37.000 You mentioned the island.
00:18:38.000 I have that idea.
00:18:39.000 Actually, wait, wait, hold on.
00:18:40.000 They're not talking about sending her to, you know, the Cape.
00:18:43.000 They're talking about sending her to a mental institution, a forensic.
00:18:46.000 It's jail.
00:18:47.000 What difference?
00:18:47.000 Wait, wait, wait.
00:18:49.000 So we have an idea here at Timcast about the island.
00:18:52.000 And as a criminal defense attorney, I'm curious what you think.
00:18:53.000 The idea is when someone, it's just, you know, they're really bad, we just drop them off on an island and leave.
00:18:58.000 Oh, my God.
00:18:59.000 And there's no laws and they can just deal with it.
00:19:01.000 Anyone who wants it.
00:19:01.000 Oh, my God.
00:19:02.000 I love it.
00:19:02.000 I've always thought that was fun.
00:19:02.000 Yeah.
00:19:03.000 Let's monetize it, set up cameras, you turn it on, you get to watch it.
00:19:06.000 I think it's like if you had, I mean, they kind of do that.
00:19:08.000 It's kind of prison.
00:19:09.000 Kind of what, yeah, exactly.
00:19:10.000 Just like, we don't know what Seattle is.
00:19:12.000 That's basically the chess.
00:19:12.000 We don't gotta spend.
00:19:13.000 Yeah, that's the chess.
00:19:14.000 Yeah, that's kind of what we don't gotta spend any money on.
00:19:17.000 I mean, a chapter in the book is called Lord of the Chess because they just gave him an island just like the kids in the Lord of the Chess.
00:19:21.000 Well, that's like those places where you can use drugs, like out in public and stuff.
00:19:25.000 Yeah, but then you get Greta Thunberg sailing up and freeing them and being like, we need to rid them off the island.
00:19:31.000 Yeah, it's too much.
00:19:33.000 It's too dangerous to punish people.
00:19:36.000 Just send them the portal.
00:19:38.000 I think Kate Clancy should be in prison.
00:19:39.000 This is gross.
00:19:40.000 She killed her kids.
00:19:41.000 Killing children isn't a symptom of psychosis.
00:19:43.000 Home, she's going to a forensic mental institution, which is not, I mean, it's just like prison, but it actually treats you and actually gives you.
00:19:50.000 But can you explain to me, like, why it is that that precedent was established where if you have psychosis, then all of a sudden you're no longer treated the same way?
00:19:58.000 Just a public policy, mostly.
00:20:00.000 Yeah, it mostly goes back to old England where they did not think so.
00:20:03.000 The original goal of punishment is deterrence, it's to make sure that people don't do it.
00:20:07.000 Well, if you're crazy, you can't be deterred because you're crazy.
00:20:10.000 So, why are you culpable?
00:20:12.000 Why should you be locked up if you can't deter someone who's mentally ill?
00:20:15.000 They didn't have TikTok back.
00:20:16.000 Then they did not, and they did not have brat stalls right now.
00:20:19.000 When half your population is completely crazy, they didn't.
00:20:22.000 And I think we need to change.
00:20:23.000 Honestly, most juries don't go with insanity.
00:20:26.000 I mean, it is a defense that loses almost all the time.
00:20:29.000 Like, I've had one client, I've been doing this 25 years.
00:20:31.000 I had one client that was found insane, and it's crazy because I say crazy, but the state's doctor said he was completely sane.
00:20:38.000 I go to try to go to trial with him, and he literally crawls under the table and wouldn't come out.
00:20:41.000 I'm like, He's sane, let's go.
00:20:43.000 Like, it's not sane.
00:20:45.000 Do you think that she'd be found guilty if the jury was 12 men?
00:20:49.000 I don't know if she'd be found guilty.
00:20:49.000 Yes.
00:20:51.000 I think it might still be hung.
00:20:52.000 I think there's some men that are just like postpartum, like, I trust you, but I'm not touching that.
00:20:59.000 You know what I mean?
00:20:59.000 Like, I've never done it.
00:21:01.000 I don't want to go there.
00:21:02.000 I don't want to say it's not real.
00:21:02.000 I don't want to say it's real.
00:21:04.000 You get crazy sometimes, you know?
00:21:06.000 Like, maybe something's going on.
00:21:08.000 Like, I think there's men out there that think that.
00:21:10.000 I mean, Patrick doesn't think she's guilty.
00:21:12.000 Her own husband.
00:21:13.000 Well, clearly a man of poor judgment, though.
00:21:16.000 Yeah.
00:21:16.000 Yeah, agreed.
00:21:17.000 I wouldn't trust that guy.
00:21:18.000 But I mean, well, I mean, don't even get me started on him.
00:21:21.000 But, like, if, you know, if he doesn't, I mean, he's intimately involved.
00:21:24.000 He knows everybody and he's not finding her.
00:21:26.000 Responsible, so that could be completely self protective, right?
00:21:29.000 I mean, if he looks back and says, Oh my god, I should have seen something, I should have done something.
00:21:33.000 Just said he could say, Hey, for all I knew, she was fine, fine mother, she loved her kids, right?
00:21:37.000 Nothing, no red flags for me to see.
00:21:40.000 I mean, he should have done something though, like everybody kind of should have done a little bit more to protect the kids, but yeah.
00:21:45.000 If you have a crazy spouse, I mean, I had one and she kept threatening suicide, and I eventually was like, You know what?
00:21:50.000 I gotta go, I'm going to the park with my friends, and I left her there.
00:21:53.000 On our way to the park, an ambulance came driving by me in the other direction.
00:21:56.000 I was like, I think that's for her.
00:21:58.000 Yeah.
00:21:58.000 And we just kept going to the park.
00:21:59.000 I found out later it was.
00:22:00.000 She had taken a bunch of pills.
00:22:01.000 There were no kids involved.
00:22:03.000 She easily.
00:22:04.000 It's just at some point, you just can't make someone kill them.
00:22:07.000 The camera jostled.
00:22:08.000 Are they coming back?
00:22:09.000 We are way over time.
00:22:10.000 That's usually an indicator.
00:22:12.000 We are.
00:22:13.000 Yeah.
00:22:13.000 Like they're getting the framing ready.
00:22:15.000 I mean, I think the cameraman like steps up and hits it.
00:22:18.000 Right, right, right.
00:22:19.000 Or steps on the platform and it moves the camera.
00:22:21.000 So what is this?
00:22:23.000 Is it anticipated to be a hung jury on the murder charges alone?
00:22:26.000 It sounds like it may be.
00:22:28.000 So if his appeal that he just did doesn't work, it's going to be a hung jury.
00:22:31.000 On everything, period.
00:22:32.000 Which means they can charge it again?
00:22:33.000 Everything.
00:22:34.000 Whole thing over.
00:22:34.000 How long, how far away until they can bring up the case next week?
00:22:38.000 Do they have to be different attorneys?
00:22:39.000 Nope.
00:22:40.000 Different jurors?
00:22:41.000 Yes, different jurors.
00:22:43.000 Different jurors, right?
00:22:44.000 Yep.
00:22:44.000 They have to start from square one.
00:22:45.000 So they start over, same judge, all that, but they get different jurors.
00:22:49.000 The thing for me about retrials that sucks is you have a transcript from the first trial.
00:22:53.000 So it becomes so cumbersome and longer because you've got prior testimony that you're going through.
00:22:57.000 And it's like, it just takes forever.
00:22:59.000 Do they call the same.
00:23:01.000 People to retestify.
00:23:02.000 Yeah, but they can call new people.
00:23:04.000 So, like, if one of the witnesses sucked or the jury didn't like them, they can fix that.
00:23:07.000 Gee, I was terrified.
00:23:08.000 They should not be allowed.
00:23:09.000 With the Rittenhouse trial, do you remember that NBC reporter followed them back to their hotel?
00:23:12.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:13.000 I was after I testified and I was like, am I going to have to do this again?
00:23:16.000 Yeah.
00:23:16.000 Wow.
00:23:16.000 Can you imagine, right?
00:23:18.000 So traumatic.
00:23:18.000 It was, yeah.
00:23:19.000 But then what if you refuse?
00:23:21.000 Like, so he's a witness.
00:23:22.000 Let's say he.
00:23:23.000 I could have refused because the subpoena out of state, I didn't have to honor the subpoena out of state.
00:23:27.000 Only if they domesticate it.
00:23:28.000 They would have.
00:23:29.000 They didn't domesticate your subpoena in that trial.
00:23:31.000 I have no idea.
00:23:33.000 I don't think they had to because I told them.
00:23:35.000 The prosecution called me because they knew the defense was going to call me.
00:23:38.000 So I just told them I would do whatever I had to do to tell the truth.
00:23:42.000 But yeah, apparently I didn't have to honor the out of state subpoena.
00:23:47.000 No.
00:23:48.000 What if you get subpoenaed, like they compel you to testify, and then there's a mistrial?
00:23:52.000 How many mistrials until they give up?
00:23:53.000 Like, is it usually just like if there's a mistrial and another mistrial?
00:23:56.000 Depends on the DA.
00:23:57.000 That's the thing.
00:23:57.000 The DA can totally decide to keep retrying it.
00:24:00.000 But can they compel me to keep coming back?
00:24:03.000 What if I say I'm not doing this?
00:24:04.000 They can compel you to keep coming back.
00:24:05.000 There is a point where they could probably read your prior testimony.
00:24:08.000 Oh, okay.
00:24:08.000 But.
00:24:09.000 That's nobody wants to read testimony.
00:24:10.000 What if your testimony changes?
00:24:11.000 Oh, oh, oh, that's a big one.
00:24:13.000 Testimony changes, then they impeach you at your prior stage.
00:24:16.000 Yes, yes, but which one's true?
00:24:18.000 What if you're like, you know what, honestly, I misremembered and I made a mistake, which is likely to be the more accurate memory the one closer to the event or the one today?
00:24:26.000 Yeah, but that one was three years after, so it's you know, the whatever statement you gave right after the event, but you're gonna read your testimony, yeah, you're gonna prep, you know, they zoomed out again, you're gonna there because something's happening, but you're gonna read your testimony, but that's a lot of work.
00:24:39.000 I mean, retrials are not fun.
00:24:42.000 What if they come out and it's just like somehow they all change their mind?
00:24:47.000 She's guilty.
00:24:49.000 Like the ADA filing was so offensive to the jury that they all said, oh, screw this.
00:24:54.000 She's guilty.
00:24:55.000 I think if they retry it, though, I think they'll fix the prosecution.
00:24:58.000 I mean, they could retry this in a week and make it clean.
00:25:01.000 What did the prosecution do wrong?
00:25:04.000 They, so in closing, they were sympathetic.
00:25:07.000 They were not sympathetic during the trial.
00:25:10.000 They know she's mentally ill.
00:25:11.000 Like she's mentally ill.
00:25:12.000 She tried to kill herself.
00:25:13.000 I mean, they just didn't accept that.
00:25:15.000 And they went overboard with like a lot of the gruesome details.
00:25:17.000 And prosecutors do that a lot.
00:25:18.000 Here we go.
00:25:19.000 Here we go.
00:25:21.000 It's happening.
00:25:21.000 Where's the popcorn?
00:25:23.000 We actually have a problem.
00:25:24.000 I want to hear the Boston girl.
00:25:25.000 Close now in session.
00:25:26.000 Please be seated.
00:25:26.000 Your Honor, for the purpose of the record, we return back to the matter.
00:25:30.000 Commonwealth Forces, Lindsay Clancy, all parties are present, excluding the jury.
00:25:34.000 All right.
00:25:35.000 Council, it's my understanding that the SJC issued their order that the emergency request for relief was denied and the temporary stay is lifted.
00:25:48.000 And so it would be my intention at this time to call the jurors back in.
00:25:53.000 And as I indicated to you before, to declare mistrust.
00:25:57.000 I understand, Your Honor, and at the risk of incurring the wrath of the court, I'd like to raise an additional issue just for purposes of the federal law, because this, I believe, constitutes a violation of the United States Constitution and federal issues.
00:26:14.000 The Supreme Court shut him down in Massachusetts, so he wants to go federal.
00:26:20.000 He's great.
00:26:23.000 Refuses to follow the law.
00:26:25.000 The issue is handled under federal rules of criminal procedure 23B, but the law itself that we're dealing with clearly indicates that a judge has the authority to excuse a deliberating juror for, quote, good cause, end quote, and allow the remaining 11 jurors to return a valid verdict andor with the substitution of one of the jurors that have been waiting, obviously, as alternates.
00:26:53.000 While the First Circuit acknowledges that a juror's refusal to follow the law or instructions constitutes good cause for dismissal, it does impose procedural issues as to how the court would navigate, which would require a hearing.
00:27:09.000 The core standard is United States versus Sepulveda, First Circuit 1993.
00:27:17.000 And in that case, Your Honor, which is significant precedent, the First Circuit addressed the underlying concept of nullification, where a juror Refuses to follow the court's instructions.
00:27:27.000 And in the Sepulveda case, the court held that while jurors possess a raw power to acquit for any reason, they have a significant duty, and their duty requires them to apply the law as given to them by the court.
00:27:42.000 If a juror abdicates this duty, it triggers the court's authority to intervene, and the court would then have a procedure where you would inquire, just like a hearing, like we were suggesting that the court should have a hearing.
00:27:54.000 So I would suggest, Your Honor, that clearly.
00:27:57.000 Under the First Circuit law, federal law, as well as the argument to the court, Massachusetts law, that we have a juror who has, according to the foreperson, is the only person who is basically holding out, so to speak.
00:28:12.000 And unfortunately, they're not holding out based on a good faith issue with the facts or with the law, but they're holding out as a result that even though they have agreed and expressed doubt, they are refusing to apply the law as you've given it.
00:28:25.000 So I would ask again that you conduct a hearing and understand that you're.
00:28:29.000 Probably going to deny that.
00:28:31.000 For reasons, as I stated earlier this morning, that request will be denied.
00:28:36.000 Shocker.
00:28:36.000 Wow.
00:28:36.000 So, are we ready to bring the jury in?
00:28:41.000 So, it's a mistrial then?
00:28:42.000 Mistrial.
00:28:43.000 Yep.
00:28:43.000 Confirmed?
00:28:44.000 Well, he's going to be confirmed now.
00:28:51.000 The jury's not telling the judge anything.
00:28:53.000 The judge is going to tell the jury it's a mistrial.
00:28:56.000 So they don't read anything.
00:28:58.000 The jury won't read anything.
00:28:59.000 The jury's not making the decision here.
00:29:02.000 They made their decision.
00:29:05.000 Can she go home now?
00:29:06.000 No.
00:29:06.000 She's still institutionalized.
00:29:09.000 So she goes in the same position she was in before the trial, and she's not on bond.
00:29:19.000 What an advanced group of monkeys we are, man.
00:29:25.000 Why are they showing that?
00:29:27.000 Why are they showing that?
00:29:28.000 Everyone winking?
00:29:29.000 Your Honor, for the purpose of the record, we return present for the court 12 deliberating jurors and six alternates in the matter of Commonwealth versus Lindsey Clancy.
00:29:38.000 All other parties are present.
00:29:40.000 All right.
00:29:40.000 Thank you, Madam Clerk.
00:29:41.000 All right, members of the jury, at this point, I'm going to declare that the jury is deadlocked.
00:29:49.000 And I'm going to declare a mistrial.
00:29:51.000 All right?
00:29:52.000 I just wanted to make a comment.
00:29:57.000 Oh, God.
00:29:58.000 I'm kind of a history buff.
00:30:00.000 I love it.
00:30:01.000 Buff.
00:30:02.000 And during World War II, Winston Churchill.
00:30:05.000 This could only cause trouble.
00:30:06.000 He's got the.
00:30:07.000 Yep.
00:30:07.000 Shut up, say less.
00:30:09.000 When England pretty much stood against Nazi Germany alone.
00:30:13.000 And so Churchill oftentimes had to talk to the citizens and say, let us brace for our duties.
00:30:22.000 I always liked that phrase.
00:30:24.000 And I thought of that phrase when all of you were agreeing to be on this jury.
00:30:30.000 You agreed to brace for that duty.
00:30:32.000 And you turned out to be trash.
00:30:33.000 You knew how long the case was going to go.
00:30:37.000 You knew how difficult the case was going to be to listen to, facts wise.
00:30:42.000 But still, you braced for that duty.
00:30:45.000 And I just kind of wanted to also let you know I watched every day, day after day, week after week, all of you.
00:30:56.000 Performing that duty that you braced for.
00:30:59.000 And I just kind of wanted to let you know I understood how hard everybody worked in this case.
00:31:04.000 I understood that you all gave everything you could and probably more than you thought you could.
00:31:11.000 And so, on behalf of myself, I just want to thank you so much that you should be proud for what you did.
00:31:18.000 You braced for that duty, you performed that duty.
00:31:21.000 And I just kind of wanted to thank you on behalf of myself and on behalf of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
00:31:27.000 Thank you so much.
00:31:29.000 The only thing I am going to ask one more thing is that what I'd like to do is be able to come back and thank you personally.
00:31:37.000 I'm going to have to talk to the council for just a couple of minutes.
00:31:41.000 So if you could stay just for a couple of minutes, not to go over the deliberations or anything like that, but just to thank you personally again for just an incredible commitment and dedication that each and every one of you showed here.
00:31:56.000 So I just want to thank you so much.
00:31:58.000 And with that, you're discharged.
00:32:01.000 Thank you.
00:32:01.000 All right.
00:32:03.000 Good.
00:32:04.000 Just finished.
00:32:17.000 So, is Clancy Hitler then?
00:32:19.000 I don't know what.
00:32:19.000 Is that his point?
00:32:20.000 That's right.
00:32:21.000 That's right.
00:32:22.000 I saw a poll on Twitter.
00:32:23.000 Who would you rather have look after your kids?
00:32:25.000 Oh, my God.
00:32:27.000 I mean, that's actually a tough question.
00:32:28.000 That actually is.
00:32:32.000 That legitimately is.
00:32:33.000 I love my kids.
00:32:34.000 But Hitler when?
00:32:35.000 Art school Hitler?
00:32:36.000 Yeah.
00:32:37.000 Were you wearing like 1942 Hitler?
00:32:38.000 I think what I had said at the end of the evidence, I just kind of wanted to echo again.
00:32:45.000 I wanted to compliment all three counsel.
00:32:48.000 A trial like this is so hard, so difficult.
00:32:51.000 And so I just kind of wanted to thank the three of you for your efforts in regards to this.
00:32:57.000 And so, with that, if you talked, I think we should probably pick a status date, where we are, a trial assignment date.
00:33:10.000 So we can talk about where we are.
00:33:12.000 I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
00:33:14.000 I know I would like to argue a 25B2, and that has to be done within five days.
00:33:18.000 So, I mean, I would like.
00:33:21.000 If possible, to have this on for a hearing on a motion for required finding reconsideration 25B2 on Tuesday.
00:33:28.000 And my request, assuming that you deny that motion, would be that we impanel the following Monday.
00:33:35.000 Oh, in fact, that would require Kevin Reddick to check my schedule.
00:33:40.000 And also, so to clarify, I'm saying come in on your day off.
00:33:44.000 As a defense lawyer, that's a lot.
00:33:46.000 My thinking is to try it sooner rather than later, but I'm not sure that's sooner.
00:33:53.000 Kevin Reddington just bounced the trial court schedule off the table.
00:33:57.000 He totally did.
00:33:58.000 That's good.
00:33:59.000 Witnesses' schedule.
00:34:01.000 Setting aside the atrocity, like Kevin Reddington does.
00:34:04.000 We'll do it maybe sometime later in the fall.
00:34:08.000 How did she get you to get a lawyer?
00:34:09.000 Why not pick a date maybe a couple of weeks down the road so everybody could get their calendars together?
00:34:15.000 Monday?
00:34:16.000 Monday, let's go, and I'll take the first 12.
00:34:18.000 You meant the next month.
00:34:19.000 She wants to argue on Tuesday and then the next Monday.
00:34:19.000 Oh, okay.
00:34:21.000 She's required finding reconsideration within five days.
00:34:23.000 But you can file it.
00:34:25.000 We have to have a hearing within the five days.
00:34:27.000 I'd like to, but I mean, I know you'd like to, but I, you know, maybe we could do it later in the week, maybe not Tuesday, maybe Thursday or so.
00:34:38.000 Sure, I'm gonna be out of the state until the 22nd.
00:34:42.000 I have a dinner.
00:34:42.000 You don't need her.
00:34:43.000 As long as it's filed, go forward with that.
00:34:45.000 Do you want to pick what we can do is pick that status date, trial assignment date, and actually then do the argument.
00:34:56.000 For the 25, Rule 25.
00:34:58.000 I'm not sure the prosecutor's availability is going to be relevant.
00:35:01.000 No.
00:35:02.000 Of course, the government is like, I'm actually on vacation.
00:35:05.000 Among the 28th?
00:35:09.000 This single juror is going to write a book and be a legend.
00:35:12.000 No.
00:35:13.000 Oh, he's going to.
00:35:14.000 Every single show everywhere.
00:35:15.000 What's it called in 30 Rock?
00:35:17.000 The rural juror.
00:35:18.000 Yeah.
00:35:22.000 I would ask if it's agreeable.
00:35:23.000 I mean, X is blowing up with like legend, hero.
00:35:27.000 He refuses.
00:35:27.000 Kevin Reddington?
00:35:28.000 No, the juror.
00:35:30.000 Once people find out who this juror is, Fox News, Rogan, you name it.
00:35:35.000 So the juror admitted doubt, but then refused to call innocence?
00:35:40.000 So the four person sent the note.
00:35:41.000 So we only know what the four person said that juror was doing.
00:35:45.000 That's essentially what the case was saying.
00:35:46.000 And imagine this.
00:35:47.000 Imagine like we're deliberating and everyone's saying not guilty and I'm the one saying not guilty.
00:35:54.000 And then you say something like, but you have to admit it's at least possible that she was crazy.
00:35:58.000 Sure, but I don't think so.
00:35:59.000 Ah, that's doubt.
00:36:00.000 So they might be saying he expressed doubt when he was actually saying, but not enough.
00:36:05.000 Or he could have been saying, I don't care that she's mentally ill.
00:36:10.000 I know that the law says that that's reasonable doubt, but I don't care.
00:36:14.000 And the other thing, too, is they wanted to pull the jury.
00:36:18.000 Counsel, thanks.
00:36:19.000 Because it might be doubt only on like one issue.
00:36:22.000 Yeah.
00:36:23.000 So, like, it was what, three charges first, second, and manslaughter?
00:36:25.000 Yeah.
00:36:26.000 So they could all agree on first and second, but the one guy is saying, no, I think it's manslaughter.
00:36:31.000 And so, when they're like, he expressed doubt, it may have been doubt on the first two charges.
00:36:34.000 He might have said, I don't think she premeditated it.
00:36:37.000 Right, right.
00:36:38.000 And then it would only be second, which is huge because the retrial then could be in front of a judge, not a jury.
00:36:42.000 Although I don't think Kevin Reddington would do that.
00:36:43.000 I think he'd want a jury, but.
00:36:45.000 It makes a difference.
00:36:46.000 Yeah, it definitely makes a difference.
00:36:47.000 And besides, if you can whittle off a charge, you want to whittle off a charge.
00:36:51.000 Yeah, as a defense lawyer, I mean.
00:36:52.000 Yeah, Massachusetts is one of those states where the defendant can demand a bench trial, meaning there's no jury.
00:36:58.000 The judge acts as the jury.
00:37:00.000 And there's nothing the state can do about it.
00:37:02.000 This is the new left right divide.
00:37:03.000 Like, all of these liberals are posting, like, this is ridiculous.
00:37:09.000 And, you know, I don't completely disagree, but I don't agree with the politics.
00:37:11.000 But the idea is you have a not guilty finding, except for one person who will not uphold the law or adhere to the law.
00:37:20.000 I would not want to be innocent and have some person on a jury for political reasons or personal reasons refuse to say not guilty.
00:37:27.000 Right.
00:37:27.000 And that's how you have to think about it.
00:37:28.000 You got it.
00:37:29.000 So the Constitution requires us to put out the atrocity, put out the kids.
00:37:34.000 Victims are not in the Constitution.
00:37:37.000 We don't protect their rights in the Constitution.
00:37:39.000 We protect citizens' rights.
00:37:40.000 We protect all humans' rights.
00:37:42.000 But that's the thing.
00:37:43.000 So everyone's caught up on what happened.
00:37:45.000 And it's atrocious.
00:37:46.000 Nobody's disputing that.
00:37:47.000 But the Constitution doesn't worry about that.
00:37:50.000 The Constitution only worries about her rights.
00:37:52.000 So here's an interesting question.
00:37:53.000 Like, we know we all know jury nullification.
00:37:55.000 They can just acquit because they're like, I don't care.
00:37:57.000 They can, but can they convict?
00:37:59.000 Can they, what's the opposite of jury nullification?
00:38:02.000 They can, classification.
00:38:03.000 I'm not sure.
00:38:04.000 Jury certification.
00:38:05.000 They actually can, and the fail safe for that is the judge.
00:38:08.000 So, so I'll tell you the answer is that so there is a standard that if they do convict and there's no evidence, they have to reverse it on appeal.
00:38:15.000 It's insufficient evidence.
00:38:16.000 It's Jackson versus Virginia.
00:38:17.000 It's a U.S. Supreme Court case that's can you get a directed verdict?
00:38:20.000 But you, yeah, the other thing is you should be able to get a directed verdict, but judges don't do that.
00:38:23.000 And what that is is like, If the jury convicted and there's no evidence, then I could argue as a defense lawyer to the judge, you need to direct a verdict of not guilty, which basically means you need to force a not guilty verdict.
00:38:33.000 They can do that.
00:38:34.000 And that can happen.
00:38:34.000 I mean, imagine a crime has like five required elements.
00:38:37.000 The state literally introduced zero evidence on one of those elements.
00:38:41.000 Just as a technical matter.
00:38:42.000 What are the elements, just for those that.
00:38:44.000 Well, I mean, just like look at murder, right?
00:38:46.000 You took a human life, it was premeditated, you did it in this county.
00:38:49.000 Venue, time.
00:38:50.000 Like it's crazy, but a lot of times cases.
00:38:52.000 Oh, yeah, here's a question.
00:38:53.000 Like, let's say somebody lives in Kentucky and.
00:38:59.000 They follow a woman from Kentucky across state lines into, I think, what West Virginia is a good state, and then kill that woman.
00:39:06.000 Ooh, I know this.
00:39:08.000 Well, yeah, so like, which venue is proper venue?
00:39:13.000 Both.
00:39:14.000 It can be, you can have the kidnapping in the state.
00:39:17.000 No, no, not kidnapping.
00:39:17.000 He just filed the person once they were in West Virginia.
00:39:19.000 They can be prosecuted in three different places they can be prosecuted where they were kidnapped, prosecuted where they were killed, and also prosecuted in the federal system because they cross state lines.
00:39:26.000 Not kidnapped.
00:39:28.000 Okay.
00:39:28.000 So a woman's like, yeah, he.
00:39:30.000 So they can be prosecuted for stalking in the first state.
00:39:30.000 Oh, they were stalked.
00:39:33.000 That state, though, is stalking, no one cares.
00:39:35.000 Let's say there's no stalking.
00:39:36.000 Let's say they're both from Kentucky and they both happenstance end up in West Virginia at a local bar.
00:39:42.000 Because they live near the state line, right?
00:39:44.000 They could be prosecuted.
00:39:44.000 All three places.
00:39:45.000 But the murder would be prosecuted in the state where the actual murder happened.
00:39:49.000 But the feds could actually prosecute for crossing the border.
00:39:52.000 So has it ever occurred where, for instance, we're in West Virginia, but Virginia, Maryland, and PA are all within a stone's throw?
00:39:58.000 It's like the quads.
00:39:59.000 It happens a lot.
00:40:01.000 Has it ever happened where, say, somebody in Maryland.
00:40:03.000 Two people from Maryland are in PA, and one person gets murdered, but then Maryland prosecuted in Maryland for that murder.
00:40:12.000 Has that ever happened like that, even though it didn't happen in Maryland?
00:40:14.000 Yes.
00:40:16.000 Is there a venue challenge?
00:40:18.000 There's a case in Georgia.
00:40:19.000 I worked on the appeal where the person, it's a death penalty case.
00:40:23.000 The guy's on death row, and he kidnapped a lady in Georgia and took her to Tennessee and killed her in Tennessee.
00:40:28.000 He got charged with kidnapping with bodily injury.
00:40:30.000 He's the only person on death row for a non homicide case because he's on death row for kidnapping with the death resulting, but the death didn't result in Georgia.
00:40:39.000 So they couldn't bring it up, but it's still there.
00:40:43.000 He's not on death row for the murder.
00:40:44.000 He's on death row for kidnapping with a murder resulting.
00:40:47.000 Murder resulted in Tennessee.
00:40:48.000 Kidnapping happened in Georgia.
00:40:50.000 Well, so let's say somebody lives in Kentucky and then he murders someone in West Virginia and then goes back to Kentucky.
00:40:56.000 Can Kentucky, or let's just say this, a guy from Kentucky goes to West Virginia, kills somebody, goes back to Kentucky.
00:41:00.000 Can Kentucky do anything?
00:41:02.000 Not if he didn't commit a crime there, no.
00:41:04.000 So West Virginia issues a warrant for his arrest.
00:41:06.000 They'll just grab him on the warrant.
00:41:07.000 They'll extradite him.
00:41:07.000 Yeah.
00:41:08.000 That's Kyle Rittenhouse right there.
00:41:11.000 So what does West Virginia do?
00:41:12.000 They file to the feds and say, we need the feds to go in and.
00:41:14.000 No, they can issue their own warrant.
00:41:15.000 The other state will honor the warrant.
00:41:17.000 Yeah, we have this thing.
00:41:18.000 It's called the Interstate Compact with all the states.
00:41:20.000 And so any state can issue a warrant, and another state has to actually get you.
00:41:23.000 The state that wants you has to pay for you to go there.
00:41:26.000 What if the state doesn't want to?
00:41:28.000 And he can live in Kentucky and not be extradited.
00:41:32.000 That's kind of crazy.
00:41:33.000 He'll have a warrant for the rest of his life.
00:41:35.000 Wasn't there a case where a woman got an abortion, and then one state issued a warrant over it, but the other state wouldn't honor it?
00:41:40.000 Probably.
00:41:41.000 I think that happened to some people.
00:41:42.000 I would guarantee that's happened.
00:41:44.000 Yeah.
00:41:44.000 There was one where two women talked, and one woman advised her on how to go get an abortion in another state, and they called it a conspiracy.
00:41:52.000 I mean, it happens a lot on the international level.
00:41:52.000 I can see that.
00:41:54.000 Yeah, I was about to say.
00:41:55.000 Somebody will commit a murder in America, flee to Europe, and we'll try to expedite them from Europe, and Europe won't send them back unless we promise not to execute them.
00:42:03.000 What about that strip in Wyoming or whatever?
00:42:06.000 You know what I'm talking about?
00:42:07.000 The strip that is not part of the U.S.?
00:42:09.000 Well, no, it's because it's like a national park.
00:42:12.000 Oh, okay.
00:42:13.000 So there's no residents, so there's no peers.
00:42:15.000 Oh, there's.
00:42:16.000 Yeah, that's.
00:42:16.000 Well, you couldn't get a jury of your peers because there are no peers.
00:42:19.000 Yeah, so how do you.
00:42:20.000 So the story as it goes is.
00:42:24.000 Let me pull it up.
00:42:25.000 I know what you're talking about.
00:42:25.000 Yeah, that's never happened.
00:42:27.000 And I think everybody hopes it'll never happen, but someone will go and commit a crime there for, you know, just to see.
00:42:31.000 But it's the zone of death.
00:42:33.000 That's what it's called.
00:42:35.000 But the thing is, there apparently was some guy who committed a crime there, and the feds charged him.
00:42:39.000 Do they have a map on this?
00:42:40.000 Well, that's actually smart.
00:42:41.000 The feds would have to do it.
00:42:43.000 Because the feds draw from like a larger.
00:42:46.000 And so he tried making the argument that this strip has no jury of my peers, therefore you can't charge me.
00:42:54.000 And they said, we're going to do it anyway, and you're going to fight the federal government to take a plea deal, and he agreed to take a deal.
00:42:59.000 Yeah, because the feds' jurisdiction is not just the state, it's the whole area.
00:43:03.000 The zone of death.
00:43:04.000 The zone of death.
00:43:05.000 That's crazy.
00:43:06.000 And that's in Yellowstone, that's where they murder everybody, if you've ever seen the show.
00:43:13.000 Oh, yeah, on the show they do.
00:43:14.000 Yeah, he's taking a train ride, and then they drive him off to the strip and dump the body because they're like, no one lives here, no one searches.
00:43:20.000 And they mention in the show, there's no jury of a peer, so nobody could be charged anyway.
00:43:24.000 Well, no one's going to find the body.
00:43:26.000 I mean, something's going to eat it.
00:43:28.000 Have you ever done criminal defense stuff?
00:43:33.000 I imagine you've done murder.
00:43:35.000 Have you ever defended murderers?
00:43:37.000 Oh, yeah.
00:43:38.000 I've never done a murder.
00:43:40.000 Only from the other side, the self defense angle.
00:43:42.000 So, when a person comes to your office, charge.
00:43:47.000 If they're charged with murder, they usually don't come to my office.
00:43:49.000 I usually have to go to the jail.
00:43:50.000 They're not out, mostly.
00:43:50.000 Right.
00:43:52.000 But every once in a while, they're out.
00:43:54.000 Do they solicit you?
00:43:55.000 Yes.
00:43:56.000 They call your office and say.
00:43:58.000 Loved one, usually?
00:44:00.000 When you meet with them in the jail, are you worried about surveillance?
00:44:04.000 Like they're going to violate, like the cops might secretly try and record you?
00:44:08.000 Oh, yeah.
00:44:08.000 Yeah.
00:44:08.000 We have certain things we do to make sure that.
00:44:10.000 White noise generators?
00:44:11.000 Well, I mean, there's certain things that I can say that they're supposed to minimize, but I don't always trust them.
00:44:16.000 But if I think they're listening or if I know they're listening because there's a wiretap, I will always say some colorful things about them on.
00:44:21.000 Because they won't be able to use it in court or anything.
00:44:24.000 They can still listen.
00:44:24.000 And they can use that for investigation and then find a justification.
00:44:27.000 Sophie says something like, look, I ditched the weapon.
00:44:29.000 They'll never find it.
00:44:30.000 It's in the room.
00:44:30.000 Or like my theory.
00:44:31.000 You know, if I'm talking about my theory, that's why I always meet with clients in person.
00:44:36.000 So when you're in a secure environment, like let's say they get bail, they're in your office, do you ask them, did you do it?
00:44:43.000 Not usually, because I usually don't want to know that.
00:44:46.000 Yeah.
00:44:46.000 Would you have to admit it?
00:44:48.000 It's not the relevant legal question.
00:44:49.000 It just isn't.
00:44:51.000 Yeah, it's really not.
00:44:52.000 It's really not part of my analysis.
00:44:54.000 I would not be able to put them on the stand and let them testify that they didn't do it if they did it.
00:44:58.000 If you knew.
00:44:58.000 Yep.
00:44:59.000 Interesting.
00:44:59.000 But I will tell you, most cases, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
00:45:03.000 Yeah.
00:45:03.000 You know, it's rare that they just did it and it's exactly how they said it was.
00:45:06.000 I do a lot of legal consults for self defense cases where I never talk to the defendant.
00:45:10.000 Yeah.
00:45:10.000 Yeah.
00:45:11.000 Unless the defendant's going to testify.
00:45:12.000 If they're going to testify, then I need to know what they're going to say.
00:45:14.000 But if they're not going to testify, I just.
00:45:14.000 Yeah.
00:45:16.000 Look at the evidence that the jury is going to be presented.
00:45:19.000 Have you guys ever had a client that you could just tell right when you looked at them they were evil?
00:45:22.000 Yes.
00:45:23.000 Yes.
00:45:23.000 Oh, yeah.
00:45:24.000 And then you were like, I got to make sure this guy goes free.
00:45:27.000 Well, I mean, so I put you guys on the spot.
00:45:27.000 Yeah.
00:45:31.000 I am a super constitution lover.
00:45:33.000 Like, I love the constitution.
00:45:34.000 Every, all of my answers, everything is based on the constitution.
00:45:37.000 I'm like obsessed with the constitution.
00:45:38.000 I have it hanging on my wall.
00:45:39.000 So I fully believe that our system only works if someone like me will defend someone that is awful and horrible.
00:45:46.000 Yeah.
00:45:47.000 And I concur with that.
00:45:48.000 I just have an odd legal practice.
00:45:49.000 So my practice is.
00:45:50.000 Consulting to other attorneys.
00:45:51.000 They're the lead counsel on their cases.
00:45:53.000 They're providing the seller's advocacy.
00:45:55.000 They call me for an expert opinion on the self defense law aspects of the case.
00:45:59.000 But I'm not going to take money from people and then give them a report that says their client's guilty.
00:46:04.000 I just don't feel that's the right thing to do.
00:46:06.000 So if I look at the case and I'm like, listen, this is just not going to work as self defense, well, obviously, then they don't want to hire me anyway.
00:46:13.000 Yeah.
00:46:13.000 Do you guys often get clients that just, I already know the answer to this, but they just think they're so smart and they cleverly covered things up, but they're dumb as a box of rocks?
00:46:23.000 Let's remember the average IQ is 100.
00:46:24.000 Most of the clients are dumber than that.
00:46:27.000 And, like, I mean, I'm trained to cross examine, so I can subtly cross examine a client and figure it out.
00:46:27.000 Right.
00:46:33.000 You know the story of the guy who robbed a bank and he rubbed lemon juice on his face?
00:46:36.000 Oh, my God.
00:46:37.000 Because he was told that lemon juice is used in disappearing ink.
00:46:40.000 And so he thought that by rubbing lemon juice on his face, the camera wouldn't see his face.
00:46:43.000 So instead of wearing a mask, he just wiped lemon juice on his face.
00:46:45.000 That's sad.
00:46:46.000 He's that dumb.
00:46:47.000 That's sad.
00:46:48.000 That's sad.
00:46:48.000 Like, maybe you would get that.
00:46:51.000 That's sad.
00:46:52.000 We actually have.
00:46:53.000 I have to.
00:46:53.000 So in Georgia, we still have mental retardation as a defense.
00:46:56.000 Really?
00:46:57.000 We use that word.
00:46:58.000 That naughty word.
00:46:58.000 Yes.
00:46:59.000 You know, I just realized Ian can kill anyone he wants because all he needs to do is make the jury watch any episode of.
00:47:06.000 Well, that's what I keep thinking about is if I get five doctors, five different medicines, they don't know, then I can be like, hey, nobody's at fault.
00:47:16.000 Are the doctors going to get charged for negligence for overprescribing Lindsey Clancy?
00:47:20.000 Well, you know, they sued.
00:47:21.000 I don't know if you saw it.
00:47:22.000 So Patrick sued the doctors for medical malpractice, which is just civil.
00:47:27.000 And they get hit with criminal charges?
00:47:28.000 Yeah.
00:47:29.000 In the future, Ian's going to be on trial for triple homicide.
00:47:32.000 Call me.
00:47:33.000 And the defense is going to be like, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'd like to play you this compilation from Tim Cast IRL.
00:47:38.000 It's 10 minutes long and it explains out clearly insane.
00:47:40.000 He is truly insane.
00:47:41.000 They're going to watch it and they're going to be like, not guilty.
00:47:44.000 I don't understand what he was saying.
00:47:45.000 The man needs help with it.
00:47:46.000 I can't convict.
00:47:47.000 Well, no, you asked that.
00:47:48.000 I pulled it up.
00:47:48.000 Less than 1% of cases end in an insanity verdict.
00:47:52.000 So, I mean, well, that's about to go up.
00:47:53.000 And also, or.
00:47:56.000 No, three don't have it.
00:47:57.000 Yeah.
00:47:57.000 I think it's three.
00:47:58.000 Something like that.
00:47:58.000 The most.
00:47:59.000 It's very rare to get more than three mistrials, but there have been documents of four trials.
00:48:05.000 How many sites have no contest?
00:48:07.000 A lot of them?
00:48:07.000 Yeah, they just call it different things.
00:48:09.000 Oh, okay.
00:48:09.000 But that's only really for traffic cases.
00:48:11.000 Oh, okay.
00:48:11.000 No contest.
00:48:12.000 Like, if you get a traffic ticket and you just don't want to go to court, so you just want to pay it, but you don't want to plead guilty, you plead no contest.
00:48:17.000 Nolo contendere, that's the Latin term.
00:48:19.000 You're not admitting guilt, but you're saying, I'll pay it.
00:48:22.000 But you know what?
00:48:24.000 They all have something called Alfred versus North Carolina.
00:48:27.000 And Alfred plea is different.
00:48:28.000 What's that?
00:48:28.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:48:29.000 Yeah, Alfred plea is where you admit guilt, but you're not admitting to the facts that the state basically believes.
00:48:29.000 We've talked about that before.
00:48:36.000 So, like, you're saying that you think the state will convict you and you want to take a plea and be sentenced, but you're not agreeing to what they said you did.
00:48:42.000 So, somehow, so like maybe I killed her, but I didn't mean to kill her.
00:48:45.000 I killed her with the knife instead of the gun, and the state thinks a lot of times it's a way of taking care of the criminal stuff without opening yourself up to civil liability.
00:48:55.000 Have you guys ever watched Better Call Saul?
00:48:56.000 Yeah, yeah, of course.
00:48:57.000 You know, the scene where uh, he's defending the liquor store robber, and then he asked the defendant, Can you point out all right, right?
00:49:04.000 He's like, Right there, he's like, Would you be surprised if I told you that's actually not the defendant?
00:49:07.000 Would you please stand?
00:49:08.000 He's in the back of the courtroom.
00:49:10.000 Uh, I feel like that's exculpatory.
00:49:12.000 Yeah, the witness misidentified a guy.
00:49:15.000 I had that happen once.
00:49:16.000 It's allowed?
00:49:17.000 So it's been 20 years.
00:49:19.000 It was one of my first trials.
00:49:20.000 I had an armed robbery, and my client had been in jail for three years.
00:49:23.000 And my client was tiny.
00:49:25.000 And all of the police reports were this tall guy had robbed three different stores, like CVS, Walgreens.
00:49:30.000 And I was like, it's not the right guy.
00:49:31.000 It's not the right guy.
00:49:32.000 It's not the right guy.
00:49:33.000 So we get into trial.
00:49:34.000 My client's been in jail for three years.
00:49:36.000 And the victim is up on the stand, and the prosecutor's like, can you identify the guy that robbed you in the courtroom?
00:49:40.000 And it was the longest, like two minutes of my life.
00:49:43.000 This guy is like.
00:49:48.000 And he goes back and he's like, nope.
00:49:50.000 It's not here.
00:49:51.000 And I literally was like, get up.
00:49:53.000 So I drag my client up.
00:49:54.000 I stand him in front of him.
00:49:55.000 I'm like, look.
00:49:56.000 And he's like, that's not him.
00:49:58.000 Wow.
00:50:00.000 Yeah.
00:50:01.000 Really happened.
00:50:02.000 It was one of those TV moments.
00:50:03.000 What if you did a stunt like that?
00:50:05.000 Would that be like a mistrial or what would that do?
00:50:07.000 No.
00:50:08.000 The judge is going to hold you in contempt.
00:50:09.000 Well, we used to have, so we don't really have lineups anymore, but we used to have lineups.
00:50:12.000 And so we had all this misidentification happen all the time.
00:50:15.000 And that used to be a theory.
00:50:16.000 Like you would have someone else who kind of looked like the guy sit at your table and then see if the witness could actually pick the right person out.
00:50:21.000 Oh, wow.
00:50:22.000 Stand ups.
00:50:23.000 That's even worse.
00:50:24.000 That's it.
00:50:24.000 Cops just, oh, my God.
00:50:25.000 Something happens on the street and a cruiser's driving around looking, just grabs the suspect and drags him over by the window.
00:50:30.000 Is this him?
00:50:31.000 And of course, the person was just beat up or whatever.
00:50:33.000 They're like, yeah, I guess so.
00:50:35.000 It's another black guy.
00:50:36.000 It's just, yeah, it's awesome.
00:50:37.000 They don't really do those that much anymore.
00:50:37.000 Yeah.
00:50:39.000 Wow.
00:50:40.000 I know.
00:50:40.000 I know.
00:50:41.000 It's crazy.
00:50:42.000 Well, I think Richie's right.
00:50:43.000 Everyone's crazy now.
00:50:44.000 Yeah.
00:50:45.000 You know what's going to happen?
00:50:46.000 Every single, every gangbanger in Chicago is going to go get a psych evaluation right now.
00:50:50.000 And they're going to be like, Oh, Doc, there's elephants everywhere and they're telling me to burn things.
00:50:54.000 And they're like, this guy's crazy.
00:50:55.000 They're not going to believe it because, in this case, so, filicide, like we were talking about earlier, when you kill your kids, there's studies that the most common reason you kill your kids is some hallucination, some altruistic thing.
00:51:05.000 I was looking it up at the break.
00:51:07.000 Like, it's, and this was interesting in the Lindsey Clancy trial.
00:51:11.000 So, the guy that wrote the book on this was Lindsey Clancy's expert, Philip Resnick.
00:51:16.000 He's like, he's the one that wrote the book on what's called altruistic filicide.
00:51:20.000 And he says that there's five motivations.
00:51:23.000 For a woman killing their kids, altruism, acutely psychotic, fatal maltreatment, unwanted child, or spouse revenge.
00:51:29.000 So we know we don't have unwanted child, no spouse revenge, no fatal maltreatment.
00:51:33.000 That's where you like starve them.
00:51:35.000 So it's acutely psychotic or altruistic.
00:51:37.000 Altruistic is like you think you're saving them.
00:51:39.000 So you combine those.
00:51:40.000 So throw them in jail if they think they're saving them and they kill them.
00:51:42.000 But throw them in jail.
00:51:44.000 So what's your.
00:51:46.000 Altruistic, acutely psychotic.
00:51:48.000 So real quick, altruistic is like I was saving my kids from hell.
00:51:52.000 Yes.
00:51:52.000 Psychotic is just like the Dark Lord told me to do it.
00:51:55.000 What's the other one?
00:51:56.000 Spousal revenge, fatal maltreatment, which is like you starve your kid, yeah.
00:52:00.000 Um, unwanted child and spouse revenge.
00:52:03.000 Would it fall under altruism if they were like, my child is possessed by the devil and was too dangerous and had to be stopped?
00:52:10.000 I think it would.
00:52:11.000 So, what he's saying, and he's the expert, and Lindsey Clancy got him.
00:52:14.000 So, altruistic occurs when a parent believes the world is too cruel for the child or because the child is enduring suffering, real or perceived.
00:52:24.000 And it's often entwined with intended suicide.
00:52:26.000 A mother who is suicidal may not want to leave her children motherless in a cruel world.
00:52:30.000 And that's exactly what they say.
00:52:31.000 Remember that.
00:52:32.000 What Goebbels did with his kids before they.
00:52:34.000 Took over Hitler's bunker.
00:52:35.000 He had made sure they all took cyanide pills so that they weren't captured by the Allies, murdered his family.
00:52:39.000 But remember that Twilight Zone?
00:52:40.000 That was crazy.
00:52:42.000 And he also killed himself.
00:52:42.000 Well, that might have been rational because the Soviets would have done horrible things.
00:52:45.000 But who's coming up with all these categories?
00:52:47.000 Isn't it just some kind of like Freudian pseudoscience?
00:52:50.000 It's a forensic psychiatrist.
00:52:51.000 Yeah.
00:52:51.000 I took AP psych in high school and it's all a bunch of BS.
00:52:54.000 I mean, isn't it?
00:52:55.000 I mean, like we were talking earlier, you can't take a flu test or a COVID test and there's no like positive, you know?
00:53:01.000 That's what I was saying.
00:53:02.000 Can we recreate this psychosis in a scientific setting?
00:53:05.000 No.
00:53:06.000 Then it's not real.
00:53:07.000 So, what you know, we call them the soft sciences.
00:53:10.000 Pretty soft, if you ask me.
00:53:11.000 It sounds like the altruistic arguments just sounds like a very late abortion.
00:53:16.000 That's what it sounds like to me.
00:53:17.000 Well, that was one of the ones where it said unwanted child.
00:53:20.000 It's like, oh, the world is so bad.
00:53:21.000 Also, this is usually with some type of psychosis.
00:53:25.000 The meme is that when we started getting this advocacy for at birth abortions, conservatives were like, the next thing they're going to say is they can kill their kids, and then you get Lindsey Clancy.
00:53:33.000 And here we are.
00:53:33.000 Yeah, exactly.
00:53:34.000 It's nothing new.
00:53:34.000 I mean, think about it.
00:53:35.000 But it's Andrea Yates, what, 20 years ago?
00:53:37.000 Like, this is a TikTok.
00:53:38.000 I'm telling you.
00:53:39.000 The support, the argument is this.
00:53:43.000 It's never from the top to the bottom.
00:53:45.000 It's a gradient, meaning you get massive, widespread support, the women versus, and Lindsey Clancy versus the world.
00:53:52.000 And they're arguing she did nothing wrong.
00:53:53.000 She was suffering and she was drugged.
00:53:55.000 And this is pushing the Overton window over.
00:53:58.000 So eventually you get, well, yes, she should be locked away because what she did.
00:54:03.000 Next, when you get a woman who gives birth and then kills the baby right away, they're going to argue, but this is no different than an at birth abortion.
00:54:08.000 And they're going to keep moving that line.
00:54:10.000 You know, in Canada, they do that.
00:54:11.000 So, they treat the filicide, killing of a child who's eight months of age or younger, as less severe than of the child we're older.
00:54:18.000 Oh, my God.
00:54:19.000 This is nuts.
00:54:20.000 That's insane.
00:54:20.000 Wow.
00:54:21.000 That's insane.
00:54:22.000 Earlier, you said that the criminal justice system is about deterrence, not punishment.
00:54:28.000 When did they decide that?
00:54:28.000 It's supposed to be.
00:54:30.000 Because I want punishment.
00:54:31.000 Well, theoretically, from England, it's supposed to be deterrence because we want a safer society.
00:54:31.000 I know.
00:54:36.000 We're not supposed to be punitive.
00:54:37.000 We really are punitive in reality.
00:54:39.000 But in theory, it's supposed to be about making the world safer.
00:54:43.000 We're supposed to have police that prevent crime, not just prosecute it.
00:54:46.000 You know, in theory, we just don't really do that anymore.
00:54:48.000 I think that anybody.
00:54:49.000 They would never prevent crime.
00:54:50.000 No.
00:54:50.000 How would they prevent crime?
00:54:51.000 They'd have to be there ahead of time.
00:54:52.000 They'd have to be doing community policing.
00:54:53.000 Well, they do.
00:54:54.000 In cities, there's a lot of crime prevention if you're doing community policing.
00:54:57.000 If you're present in the community, people tend to not come out and do the crime in your face.
00:55:01.000 Tend to.
00:55:02.000 I mean, it does work.
00:55:02.000 No, no, but they do it to block over.
00:55:04.000 Right.
00:55:06.000 I think we don't have enough psychological manipulation of criminals.
00:55:10.000 I think we need to take a page out of the UK's book and anybody who supported Lindsey Clancy on the internet.
00:55:16.000 They should go to their house and arrest them and be like, You're not mentally stable.
00:55:20.000 Sorry.
00:55:21.000 Well, no, all the women who defended Lindsey Clancy claiming that Patrick did it are doing it because they plan to murder their kids.
00:55:26.000 And they need to do that.
00:55:27.000 Arrest them.
00:55:28.000 Jail.
00:55:29.000 Everybody, jail.
00:55:29.000 They're going to be like, I'm crazy.
00:55:30.000 Look what I was posting on the internet.
00:55:32.000 Round them up.
00:55:32.000 I don't like them.
00:55:33.000 That was the rhetoric that she got drugged because I think she chose to drug herself.
00:55:40.000 And then she did crazy things after she chose to do that to herself.
00:55:43.000 So, I mean, it's all her fault.
00:55:45.000 Hey, you're like, Whoa, like if Richie shoots Ian, it's a crime.
00:55:47.000 But if he takes drugs first, he's not guilty?
00:55:50.000 Well, that's why they didn't get that charge.
00:55:52.000 The judge said no because Kevin Reddington tried that one, tried the involuntary manslaughter, and the judge was like, no.
00:55:57.000 I thought that was ridiculous.
00:55:58.000 Was it court like documented that she was drugged and not that she drugged herself?
00:56:04.000 We don't even know how many drugs she was taking.
00:56:05.000 We know how many drugs she was prescribed.
00:56:07.000 It was 13 or 14 different medications, but they have all the bottles and most of them are full.
00:56:12.000 Most of them are missing one or two tablets.
00:56:14.000 Here's a question What if the voice was real?
00:56:17.000 I'm not saying like, I'm saying like, what if somebody literally was like intending her to drive her crazy and drove her to it?
00:56:25.000 Or demons.
00:56:26.000 She thought it was real.
00:56:27.000 That's the whole thing.
00:56:28.000 I'm saying for criminal culpability, is if.
00:56:28.000 No, no, no.
00:56:31.000 It was a command.
00:56:32.000 If you keep hearing someone say, do it or else, do it now, do you have a defense for there's a voice?
00:56:38.000 And then they find out there was a speaker secretly implanted and a guy was actually doing it.
00:56:42.000 They have technology that actually can do that.
00:56:45.000 They can put a voice into your head without other people hearing it.
00:56:48.000 It vibrates your skull.
00:56:48.000 Sure, sure.
00:56:49.000 It's like metaglasses.
00:56:50.000 Of the voice of God.
00:56:53.000 With the LRAD device, we can project sound, but we also have lasers.
00:56:56.000 So, like talking plasma Ian mentions, you can have a laser hit a wall and then create a high frequency sound.
00:57:02.000 But just back to the legal question, because I'm curious.
00:57:05.000 If they discovered, like let's say in the middle of the trial, they found evidence that there was a speaker in her couch that was actually transmitting a recording saying, kill your kids, would that be a legal defense?
00:57:16.000 Would you get off?
00:57:16.000 Or could you get off?
00:57:17.000 Can it induce psychosis, right?
00:57:19.000 If she had psychosis, then she doesn't have criminal culpability.
00:57:22.000 Well, it's not a question of psychosis.
00:57:23.000 What if she said, I kept hearing a voice and I was telling people, he told me I was crazy, and then only now did they find a speaker was actually predicting the voice and I wasn't crazy the whole time, but I thought I was.
00:57:35.000 Is she going to get.
00:57:36.000 Is there a defense there?
00:57:37.000 There's a defense.
00:57:38.000 It just depends on the jury.
00:57:39.000 But I mean, you can put that defense up without a doubt.
00:57:42.000 But is there, is there, it's like a legal doctrine for this, like you were coerced.
00:57:42.000 You could put up the.
00:57:46.000 It would be the criminal responsibility.
00:57:47.000 Because there's nothing that says, like the flu, you know, there's nothing that says you're insane.
00:57:51.000 So you don't have to have like a documented long mental illness.
00:57:54.000 That could be something that was triggered some type of psychosis or something.
00:57:58.000 Here's a question we brought up on the show the other day.
00:58:00.000 And our assessment was that you're responsible for killing someone even if you're threatened to do so.
00:58:05.000 But I'd like to get clarification from actual experts.
00:58:08.000 If Richie put a.
00:58:10.000 Like, took Ian's loved one and then said, If you don't murder this person, I will murder your family member.
00:58:18.000 Is Ian criminally responsible for that murder?
00:58:20.000 That's self defense, defense of self or others.
00:58:22.000 Because, well, no, he's not saving anybody.
00:58:25.000 No, no, no, no.
00:58:27.000 Well, it depends on how close in time it is to the situation.
00:58:29.000 Like, is he holding the gun to his head and saying, I'll kill him if you don't?
00:58:33.000 Like, he gets a call, and there's Richie with a gun to Ian's mom's head saying, I want you to shoot Breaker right now or I kill your mom.
00:58:39.000 And then Ian goes, No, I'll do it.
00:58:40.000 And he kills him.
00:58:41.000 Is Ian responsible for killing Andrew?
00:58:41.000 Yeah.
00:58:43.000 I would argue yes.
00:58:45.000 I thought the other party is responsible in their own way for their criminal conduct and inducing that coercion, coercing that.
00:58:52.000 But you're not going to get the legal system's not going to apply a lesser value on my life than on that other person's life.
00:58:58.000 And in the law, they're both equal value lives.
00:59:01.000 I would have a duress defense, it's like heat of passion.
00:59:03.000 You've probably heard the defense where you know a husband goes in and his wife's cheating on him, and then you know, in the heat of passion, he kills the guy.
00:59:09.000 Like it's a lesser included.
00:59:11.000 I think, uh And I'm not saying it's.
00:59:13.000 He's so culpable.
00:59:13.000 Yeah, he's so culpable.
00:59:14.000 It's just not like a murder.
00:59:17.000 It would be like a man.
00:59:18.000 In my opinion, if you are threatened with the harm of a loved one, unless you kill another person, the charge should be greater.
00:59:25.000 Yeah.
00:59:26.000 Well, it should be substantially greater.
00:59:28.000 Why?
00:59:30.000 Deterrence.
00:59:32.000 We're not talking about an issue of insanity, which I understand you're not going to deter a crazy person.
00:59:36.000 But if you are told, like someone says, hey, I'm going to harm your family member unless you kill the man in front of you right now, but I'm thinking I will be.
00:59:46.000 I will get a, like, the things they will do to me are so substantially worse, I can't do it.
00:59:52.000 It shouldn't be, I feel like when you say.
00:59:52.000 Right?
00:59:54.000 They're going to do worse to you than your kid dying.
00:59:56.000 Right.
00:59:57.000 Well, your kid dying.
00:59:58.000 Do you care?
00:59:58.000 I mean, do you care if you go to prison?
00:59:59.000 No, I'm going to save my kid.
01:00:01.000 See, this is the challenge.
01:00:02.000 I'm not a prison to save my kid.
01:00:04.000 How many people would you murder to save your kid?
01:00:06.000 Yeah.
01:00:06.000 A thousand?
01:00:07.000 A thousand?
01:00:07.000 Me?
01:00:08.000 I mean, three thousand.
01:00:09.000 See, that's why there's degrees of duress.
01:00:13.000 I would, yeah.
01:00:14.000 I mean, that's an interesting question.
01:00:16.000 I mean, you have a kid too.
01:00:18.000 If Xi Jinping kidnapped your kid and was like, now your kid will die, and the only thing you could do is launch a nuke and wipe out all of China to save your kid, would you do it?
01:00:25.000 Yes.
01:00:26.000 Oh, my God.
01:00:27.000 I would.
01:00:28.000 It's tough, right?
01:00:30.000 I'd do anything.
01:00:30.000 I'd die from it.
01:00:31.000 I mean, if they said.
01:00:32.000 Would you appoint him at Burisma?
01:00:34.000 Huh?
01:00:34.000 Your kid?
01:00:34.000 Would you appoint him on the board of Burisma?
01:00:36.000 No, that's not fair.
01:00:37.000 No, no, no.
01:00:38.000 How far would you go to save your kid?
01:00:40.000 Only if they give you 10%.
01:00:41.000 See, that's an entirely different question.
01:00:42.000 The gunman in this metaphor has a gun literally to your head.
01:00:46.000 Says, shoot the guy, or I'm going to shoot you in the head.
01:00:46.000 I would die.
01:00:48.000 And he does shoot the guy.
01:00:49.000 Does he go to prison for murder, or do I, as the dresser?
01:00:53.000 That's the question I was asking.
01:00:54.000 But it's even more, it's not, I'm going to go after your kid.
01:00:56.000 It's, I'm going to end your life.
01:00:57.000 Oh, right.
01:00:58.000 You'd both be charged.
01:01:00.000 He'd be charged.
01:01:00.000 Oh, yeah.
01:01:00.000 Okay.
01:01:01.000 He'd have a defense, but he'd be charged.
01:01:01.000 How high?
01:01:04.000 You're on a spaceship with a bunch of aliens, and the aliens have the Glorblot device up to your kid's head, and they say, Destroy the Earth or we kill your child.
01:01:04.000 Yeah, he'd die.
01:01:12.000 Done.
01:01:13.000 See you guys.
01:01:14.000 Done.
01:01:15.000 So it's all a matter of legal arguments, right?
01:01:17.000 So he was subject to being charged.
01:01:19.000 His legal defense would be the defense of duress.
01:01:21.000 Yeah.
01:01:22.000 And he could be acquitted on that basis.
01:01:24.000 Subject to being charged means he may not even get charged.
01:01:26.000 That's for sure.
01:01:27.000 Prosecutors can always not charge.
01:01:28.000 I think about soldiers when they're given an order to go massacre a village, search and destroy, like they don't.
01:01:32.000 Go to prison for it.
01:01:34.000 I'm not sure they're off in order to massacre a village.
01:01:36.000 They'd be more settled than that.
01:01:38.000 What's that?
01:01:38.000 Massacre a village.
01:01:39.000 Well, they say search and destroy, kill everything that moves.
01:01:41.000 They're all Viet Cong.
01:01:42.000 You know, there's no questioning it.
01:01:44.000 And you go and you do the job, you realize they were just kids.
01:01:46.000 Oh, you're going to jail.
01:01:47.000 Listen, Ian, what you need to understand is.
01:01:48.000 They're not only violating the laws of the country they're in, but it doesn't matter.
01:01:51.000 No, no, no.
01:01:51.000 U.S. is going to get them out.
01:01:52.000 You misunderstand.
01:01:53.000 If I'm like, let's say I'm like the commanding officer, right?
01:01:56.000 And you're the guy flying the helicopter, and I say, I want you to fire missiles and blow up that village.
01:02:00.000 And then you're like, oh, man, who goes to jail?
01:02:02.000 You do, because I throw you under the bus.
01:02:03.000 And I deny it.
01:02:04.000 I never told them to And then the chain of command said.
01:02:07.000 The captain apparently ordered it.
01:02:08.000 The lieutenant carried out the order and told his troops.
01:02:10.000 The troops did it.
01:02:11.000 And then the captain denied giving the order.
01:02:12.000 Of course.
01:02:13.000 The lieutenant goes to prison.
01:02:13.000 Of course.
01:02:14.000 Yep.
01:02:15.000 And the soldiers get off.
01:02:16.000 Captains.
01:02:17.000 Oh my God.
01:02:18.000 That's what the Milai message is.
01:02:19.000 Kirk's the only good one.
01:02:20.000 Milai?
01:02:21.000 Milai.
01:02:22.000 Milai.
01:02:22.000 Milai.
01:02:23.000 Yeah, Milai.
01:02:24.000 And the captain, the lieutenant and the soldiers testified that the captain gave the order multiple times and was screaming, Go, we don't have time for this.
01:02:31.000 Go, finish it off.
01:02:33.000 And then they threw the lieutenant to us.
01:02:36.000 You guys know the story of the coup in Turkey?
01:02:38.000 I think this was like 10 years ago.
01:02:40.000 So, a bunch of Turkish soldiers went to the Bosphorus Bridge, and then all of a sudden, this battle ensued.
01:02:45.000 There's like a helicopter shooting at people, and the media reported that these soldiers were attempting to stage a coup against Erdogan, who was traveling out of the country.
01:02:54.000 He turned around and came back, and then they arrested a whole bunch of scholars and politicians.
01:02:59.000 The conspiracy theory is that, and I don't even think it's actually a conspiracy theory.
01:03:03.000 I think there's some evidence this may be the case, but I'm not entirely sure.
01:03:05.000 I'm not from Turkey.
01:03:06.000 These were low level, like, you know, just low ranking soldiers in the Turkish army who were ordered by the higher ups.
01:03:14.000 That there was a terror attack and we needed to secure the bridge.
01:03:17.000 They had no intention of staging a coup.
01:03:19.000 They were just told.
01:03:20.000 Oh my gosh.
01:03:21.000 The theory is that Erdogan wanted the coup attempt so he could round up his political adversaries and remove them from power, including academics.
01:03:28.000 So they send a bunch of soldiers to the bridge, dumb as a box of rocks and clueless, thinking we're here to guard the bridge.
01:03:33.000 Then the media says they're staging a coup.
01:03:35.000 Civilians came out and beat them to death and dragged their bodies.
01:03:39.000 Yeah.
01:03:40.000 Wow.
01:03:41.000 So they're always going to throw the bottom guy.
01:03:41.000 Yep.
01:03:43.000 Here's the thing anything can be a defense in this country if the judge lets me argue it.
01:03:48.000 Pretty much.
01:03:48.000 Really?
01:03:49.000 Pretty much.
01:03:50.000 What's an example of that being kind of egregious?
01:03:52.000 Like, what's the craziest thing?
01:03:53.000 Like, the craziest defense?
01:03:55.000 Like the crazy thing a judge has let you do or someone you've seen.
01:03:57.000 Well, they usually don't.
01:03:58.000 That's the thing.
01:03:59.000 They try to curb it.
01:04:00.000 But I mean, a lot of times, a lot of cases, you've got a defense like ignorance of the law.
01:04:04.000 Like maybe you didn't know or maybe they didn't know their age.
01:04:06.000 That happens a lot.
01:04:07.000 I mean, there's a fine line.
01:04:08.000 Like in Georgia, just for example, 16 is the age of consent for sex, 18 is the age of consent for pictures.
01:04:13.000 This is not a popular subject, but it's a very interesting one.
01:04:15.000 Yeah.
01:04:15.000 That's weird.
01:04:16.000 So you can have sex with a 16 year old and it's not a crime.
01:04:18.000 But if you take a picture of her, then it's a crime.
01:04:21.000 Yeah.
01:04:22.000 Take a naked picture.
01:04:23.000 A lot of people don't know this.
01:04:24.000 Audio recording of the sex.
01:04:25.000 Nope.
01:04:26.000 That's okay.
01:04:26.000 Can't do that either.
01:04:27.000 These things are always recorded.
01:04:29.000 Sexual exploitation.
01:04:33.000 I know it's not a popular.
01:04:34.000 I'm using it as an example.
01:04:35.000 They not then go after Google for recording the sex with a baby.
01:04:35.000 It's not.
01:04:37.000 They should because it's sexual exploitation of a child.
01:04:40.000 They should.
01:04:40.000 This is actually pretty crazy that most people don't realize the average age of consent, I think, is 16 in the United States.
01:04:44.000 Yeah, it's 16.
01:04:45.000 Yeah, they think it's 18.
01:04:45.000 It's not.
01:04:46.000 No, they don't.
01:04:46.000 Well, a lot of people think it's 16 and then they get in trouble.
01:04:49.000 I have a lot of these cases where they're like, oh, well, I had sex with a 17 year old.
01:04:52.000 Oh, but I took a picture of her boobs and then they're.
01:04:56.000 I think sexual exploitation that is, but that's one of the ones where.
01:04:59.000 So, for a judge, you would want to argue, but it's legal to have sex with her, but I can't take pictures of her.
01:05:05.000 You'd want to be able to argue that.
01:05:06.000 I know a guy who got convicted of that.
01:05:07.000 Oh, I have a ton of clients on a competitive shooter.
01:05:10.000 Yeah, he's uh, he was an older guy, he was in his 40s, and somehow he was hooking up with really young girls.
01:05:15.000 Really, so it's gross anyway.
01:05:17.000 I like that.
01:05:18.000 All of them are gross, they're all, but he didn't get convicted for having sex with her.
01:05:22.000 He got convicted because they took some pictures while they were doing it.
01:05:25.000 Yeah, oh, yeah, yep.
01:05:27.000 What if she took pictures?
01:05:28.000 Like, what if it was the same thing?
01:05:30.000 Still a crime.
01:05:32.000 If she took pictures of him?
01:05:34.000 But she's the younger one.
01:05:34.000 Yeah.
01:05:34.000 Yeah.
01:05:35.000 Yeah.
01:05:36.000 So as long as he sends them to her, like she sends them, if they transmit them, then enjoy the crime.
01:05:41.000 So 20 year old and 16 year old hook up.
01:05:44.000 16 year old female takes pictures of it and then sends it to him.
01:05:48.000 Yeah.
01:05:48.000 And he responds with, How dare you?
01:05:50.000 This is wrong.
01:05:51.000 Don't do this.
01:05:51.000 I'm going to report this to the police.
01:05:52.000 He goes to jail.
01:05:53.000 Possession of child pornography.
01:05:54.000 Even though he reported it and saying this was sent to me.
01:05:56.000 So in the federal system, if you report it immediately, you can have a defense.
01:06:00.000 You still get charged, but you have a defense.
01:06:01.000 But most state courts, you don't have a defense.
01:06:03.000 What anybody can text you anything at any point, yeah.
01:06:07.000 Yep, you can the federal system.
01:06:10.000 So, so I actually have had experts that went to see if my client downloaded it and how long they looked at the image because I've had clients that were sent stuff that are like, oh, you know, like when it really happens is if you download porn, you know, you download 20 images and maybe one of them is an underage, but you didn't actually try to download someone underage.
01:06:26.000 If you delete it really quick, that's a defense in federal court, but it's not in state court.
01:06:30.000 So, this is why this comes up.
01:06:32.000 What will happen is you'll have some.
01:06:34.000 People who collect child porn, they don't have one or two images.
01:06:36.000 Yeah, they have thousands of images.
01:06:37.000 They have hard drives full of this stuff.
01:06:40.000 And it'll be a pastor at a church, and he'll have a computer problem, and someone will try to help him with the computer and discover all the child porn.
01:06:46.000 And the pastor will go, Oh my God, I had no idea that was there.
01:06:49.000 I'm insane.
01:06:50.000 I plead insanity.
01:06:51.000 Oh, no, no, no.
01:06:51.000 Someone just sent it to me.
01:06:53.000 Oopsie.
01:06:54.000 Wait, wait, wait.
01:06:55.000 Did you guys see the recent ruling that artificial intelligence, AI generated images of children is legal so long as it's not real?
01:07:02.000 What's going on with that?
01:07:03.000 Have you followed that at all?
01:07:04.000 I have.
01:07:05.000 It's weird.
01:07:06.000 I mean, I get it from the defense standpoint because the theory on child porn, why it's illegal, is because the kids are harmed making it.
01:07:14.000 So if kids aren't harmed, there's technically no harm.
01:07:17.000 But as a society, we think it's gross.
01:07:19.000 So.
01:07:19.000 Yeah, it's not that uncommon, actually.
01:07:21.000 This used to come up before AI because people would do drawings.
01:07:24.000 Was that illegal?
01:07:25.000 It varies from jurisdiction.
01:07:26.000 So Ian brought this up and he had concerns that, like, what if someone draws a picture?
01:07:30.000 So what if, like, one of the things that people do is they draw children but call them elves.
01:07:37.000 And it's like very obvious that they're making pre pubescent little girls, but it's an elf.
01:07:42.000 Well, you put it in front of a jury and ask them how they feel about it.
01:07:44.000 Yeah.
01:07:45.000 Well, so then it's like, okay, like where the challenge is.
01:07:49.000 For me, I actually think it's pretty simple like lock them up.
01:07:51.000 Yeah.
01:07:52.000 Like, we have moralities when we make these, we have moral lines for illegality.
01:07:55.000 Like, on the flock camera debate, you know, some people are like, we have to allow flock cameras to defend the First Amendment.
01:08:00.000 My answer is no, we have moral lines on different subjects and different subjects.
01:08:04.000 But the concern that people bring up is like, where is the line then?
01:08:04.000 Yeah.
01:08:08.000 What if it's clearly a child with a pig's head?
01:08:10.000 Right, right.
01:08:11.000 Is it then going to constitute?
01:08:13.000 Yeah.
01:08:14.000 For me, I'm kind of like, yep, you know, like, I don't care.
01:08:16.000 Like, stop playing games.
01:08:18.000 We know what you're trying to do and why you're doing it.
01:08:19.000 If it's AI, like, it's, I mean, the law as it is right now, no, it's not going to be illegal.
01:08:19.000 Right.
01:08:25.000 Are you lawful?
01:08:25.000 The problem with the AI.
01:08:26.000 The problem with the AI law is that how do you then determine what is real and what isn't?
01:08:26.000 Yes.
01:08:30.000 And how, as a person, how do you comply with the law?
01:08:30.000 I know.
01:08:33.000 I mean, the answer is just don't have child porn, whether it's real or not.
01:08:36.000 But do you think that this will get overturned and they'll be like, no, you can't do it?
01:08:40.000 No.
01:08:40.000 Well, I think that they're going to, I think that it's, yes, I think they're not going to be allowed to criminalize AI porn.
01:08:47.000 So, to clarify, a judge ruled you can't criminalize if it's not a real person.
01:08:52.000 Yes.
01:08:53.000 Is that going to be appealed?
01:08:55.000 Like, is the prosecution.
01:08:56.000 I think it will last.
01:08:57.000 I think it'll stand.
01:08:59.000 I bet they could criminalize it.
01:09:00.000 It's just the state police power.
01:09:02.000 They can say, hey, we allow these images to go out, even if they're artificial.
01:09:06.000 It just encourages pedos to be more interested in kids.
01:09:08.000 Plus, like the likeness, I mean, you can have a photo of a kid on some mom's Instagram and then, you know, turn that into whatever.
01:09:15.000 That's the big fear.
01:09:15.000 Wood chipper is the anti-pig.
01:09:17.000 They start to criminalize the intent of creating it, just the data that would turn into code later that might produce the picture of not a real person.
01:09:24.000 And that's so dangerous because that data could be used for other things.
01:09:27.000 This is why I think people should be criminalized for putting their kids on the internet.
01:09:31.000 Without their consent.
01:09:31.000 Yeah.
01:09:32.000 Oh, yeah.
01:09:33.000 And get for their own social media clout.
01:09:35.000 It's just a slip.
01:09:36.000 That should be a criminal offense.
01:09:37.000 Patrick of Ohio asks How do we prove?
01:09:39.000 So now we need to prove the child is a person or not?
01:09:43.000 I know.
01:09:44.000 They have to actually prove already.
01:09:44.000 They already do.
01:09:46.000 That's a real person.
01:09:47.000 They've had to prove for years that.
01:09:48.000 They've always had to prove that.
01:09:49.000 They have to prove the years and the age.
01:09:50.000 So it's really crazy.
01:09:52.000 They actually have known images and the hashtag data for it, and they can prove it.
01:09:57.000 And here's the thing.
01:09:58.000 When you talk about child porn, everybody's like, this is disgusting.
01:10:01.000 Nobody likes it.
01:10:02.000 I mean, obviously it's disgusting.
01:10:03.000 We want to criminalize it, we want it to be bad.
01:10:05.000 But then you think about what you were talking about.
01:10:07.000 Do you make the creator?
01:10:09.000 What if someone created it and they didn't know it was a child?
01:10:11.000 I mean, there are certain defenses to it.
01:10:14.000 I see criminalizing data in general, then, is like a slippery slope towards criminalizing schematics for 3D printed guns.
01:10:21.000 Which they've tried to do.
01:10:22.000 Yeah.
01:10:23.000 And that's super risky.
01:10:24.000 Right.
01:10:24.000 Have you guys seen that woman who's in her late 20s, but she's got a genetic disorder that makes her look like she's seven years old?
01:10:30.000 No.
01:10:31.000 And she had a TV show, and there's a guy dating her, and everyone's like, it's pretty messed up because.
01:10:36.000 I mean, this woman is in her late 20s.
01:10:38.000 She wants to have a family, but no matter who she's with, that person is like basically a pedo.
01:10:43.000 Okay, so let me ask you this.
01:10:44.000 So, what is worse to you?
01:10:46.000 That someone of age having sex with someone who looked like a seven year old or having sex with someone who is actually 13, but they look like they're 27.
01:10:56.000 Both.
01:10:59.000 I feel like it's equal.
01:11:02.000 But the problem is, I kind of sympathize with this poor woman.
01:11:05.000 Right.
01:11:06.000 Because she's dating a guy that everyone is calling a pedophile.
01:11:08.000 Yeah.
01:11:08.000 And it's part of the show where it's like, When he leans down and they kiss, people start yelling at him and like they get in trouble.
01:11:15.000 But she's in her late 20s and she has every right to live her life, you know?
01:11:19.000 But I'm like, any guy, look, with all due respect to this poor woman, any guy that wants to be in that relationship.
01:11:23.000 How?
01:11:25.000 The luckiest pedophile in the world, I guess.
01:11:26.000 There's another guy called Hasbula that Mike Tyson famously was wrestling.
01:11:30.000 He thought he was a little kid.
01:11:31.000 He's like in his 20s.
01:11:33.000 I think a lot of it is the perception of youth that is criminalized because they don't really, like you said, if the woman's 16 or 15, but she looks like she's 23.
01:11:42.000 No one's gonna, I mean, they might, the legal team might use it as an opportunity to crush someone, but no one would even realize that it might be a crime to begin with.
01:11:49.000 Right.
01:11:50.000 Yeah, but nobody gets in trouble for that.
01:11:52.000 No one gets in trouble because they have a picture of a cheerleader who happens to be 15 years old.
01:11:56.000 The pictures, these, I have friends in the FBI who work these cases, and the images, they're all kids.
01:12:01.000 They're all obviously kids.
01:12:03.000 There's thousands of them.
01:12:03.000 They're awful.
01:12:05.000 This is not some incidental someone has a, you know, on the edge kind of photo.
01:12:09.000 You know, I'm wondering, I have to say, the term rape is so vague.
01:12:12.000 There's violent rape, forcing sex against someone against their will.
01:12:15.000 And then there's a guy's 20 and then a girl's 17.
01:12:19.000 And it's not rape, it's a different word should be used.
01:12:21.000 Statutory rape is too hot.
01:12:23.000 Date rape is, we don't, yeah, don't even get me started because we don't have date rape in most states.
01:12:26.000 Like, it's such a different offense.
01:12:29.000 It needs a different word, like, like, stat.
01:12:31.000 Like, we need to stop that.
01:12:32.000 Especially after me, too.
01:12:33.000 Especially after me, too.
01:12:34.000 It's insane how many people are charges because of that.
01:12:39.000 I'm wondering why we haven't seen, like, actually, I'm sorry.
01:12:43.000 No, we have seen some of these things where these, like, pedo catchers get a wrong guy or a random guy.
01:12:49.000 There was one.
01:12:50.000 It's a real risk.
01:12:50.000 Yeah.
01:12:51.000 I see those videos all the time, of course.
01:12:53.000 And, They grab some dude.
01:12:54.000 It's like, what have you got the wrong dude?
01:12:56.000 Well, this happened.
01:12:57.000 They were, apparently, the woman they were using.
01:13:01.000 So, this woman was running accounts and stinging guys.
01:13:05.000 And she made a mistake.
01:13:06.000 On one of the accounts, she never said she was underage.
01:13:10.000 So, the young guy went to meet up with her, thought he was meeting someone of age.
01:13:14.000 She then tells her team, no, look, I told him I was a minor.
01:13:17.000 And he's like, that's not my account.
01:13:19.000 Oh, because they're doing like 100 at the same time.
01:13:21.000 Yeah.
01:13:22.000 And so the guy was like, here's the messages.
01:13:24.000 She said she was older and her account says 21 or whatever.
01:13:27.000 And then they, I think, ended up suing them and they ended up getting in trouble.
01:13:30.000 Wow.
01:13:30.000 Well, it's a good way to get shot.
01:13:32.000 Right?
01:13:32.000 Yeah.
01:13:33.000 If you grab the wrong guy and he sees three or four big dudes start shoving them around.
01:13:37.000 Yeah.
01:13:38.000 Some of these videos are crazy because they'll, like, they'll walk into the store where the guy's supposed to meet the kid and they start beating the crap out of him.
01:13:43.000 And then people are just standing there watching it.
01:13:44.000 It's like, I get it.
01:13:46.000 Wrong dude.
01:13:46.000 You know what I mean?
01:13:47.000 But the, the, well, I mean, look, most of the time they're not the wrong dude.
01:13:52.000 Yeah.
01:13:53.000 I'm not going to advocate for mercy.
01:13:54.000 Most of the time they're not.
01:13:55.000 But if you're in public and you're beating a guy, you got to be careful.
01:13:58.000 Someone's going to shoot you.
01:13:59.000 Yeah.
01:14:00.000 This is what I was.
01:14:02.000 Who was I?
01:14:03.000 I was just talking to somebody about like criminal trials, and I said, Imagine, and everybody knows, especially like you guys in criminal defense, imagine there's two guys in a park, and then one guy picks up a rock and chucks at the other guy's head, and the guy dodges.
01:14:20.000 Then the guy grabs another rock and says, I'm going to kill you.
01:14:23.000 Then you walk up and see the victim draws gun and shoot and kill the other person.
01:14:29.000 You just watched a guy shoot a guy.
01:14:30.000 Mm hmm.
01:14:31.000 Right, so you call the police and they say, What happened?
01:14:33.000 Like, that guy just shot that guy, and there's no witness to say, Actually, the guy with the gun is like he was he was he was trying to murder me, had a rock in his hand, and he was throwing them at me.
01:14:41.000 But so people will come up and they will see after the fact, yeah, and they don't understand who's the aggressor.
01:14:48.000 Actually, happens that's Kenosha in a nutshell.
01:14:50.000 If we hadn't have been there, you know, I mean, people were would have made the argument that he did they claimed Rittenhouse killed three black guys, they still say it's a mistake.
01:14:58.000 I argue that all the time.
01:14:59.000 Four flock cameras is the transparency of crime, but but but no, no, no, no, hold on, the flock cameras are not.
01:15:05.000 Filming everything 247.
01:15:07.000 Many of them are like low frame rate, like nine frames per second.
01:15:09.000 The Condors are video cameras.
01:15:11.000 But what's ethically do you guys think about Condor flock cameras?
01:15:11.000 They could pick it up.
01:15:14.000 Oh, I hate them.
01:15:15.000 I hate them.
01:15:15.000 But I will say they have exonerated many people.
01:15:20.000 I hate the surveillance.
01:15:21.000 But in the criminal world, it's very helpful to have those.
01:15:24.000 I mean, I've had, I used to do work for this company that had trucks.
01:15:29.000 This was years ago.
01:15:30.000 They would, it was like the gas company, you know, and they had the trucks that went around and fixed stuff.
01:15:34.000 And they would get in accidents.
01:15:35.000 And every time they got in an accident, they would end up getting sued.
01:15:38.000 So, they thought it was cheaper to hire me to go defend all of them.
01:15:40.000 Well, they had dash cams.
01:15:41.000 I will tell you, not once did the dash cam match what the police found.
01:15:46.000 So, every single time the police would make a charge, they would charge someone with causing the accident.
01:15:50.000 And every single time when I would pull the dash cam, it would say complete opposite.
01:15:53.000 So, they would believe whoever got in the accident, you know, the other person, and disbelieve the commercial driver, the driver of the truck.
01:16:00.000 And every single time the dash cam proved that my driver was innocent.
01:16:04.000 I mean, they obviously have you can exonerate people, right?
01:16:06.000 They're capturing video.
01:16:07.000 They'll capture video of the occasional crime.
01:16:09.000 That'll help solve the crime.
01:16:10.000 To me, it's a public policy question.
01:16:12.000 I mean, we could put a cop up everyone's ass, too, right?
01:16:15.000 That would stop a lot of crime.
01:16:16.000 Put a drone on it.
01:16:16.000 Do we want to live that way?
01:16:17.000 Yeah, like that's the problem.
01:16:18.000 I don't want to live that way.
01:16:19.000 Nope.
01:16:19.000 Nobody does.
01:16:21.000 Yeah.
01:16:21.000 But a cop in every house, right?
01:16:22.000 You got a cop living in your house.
01:16:23.000 It's going to help stop crime.
01:16:25.000 But nobody wants to live like that.
01:16:26.000 You'd be shocked, though.
01:16:27.000 Now we're getting a lot of ring camera videos.
01:16:29.000 Like, it's insane how many ring cameras.
01:16:32.000 And I'll have one case and I'll have like five ring cameras because people will catch little bits and pieces of the arguments.
01:16:36.000 It's very interesting.
01:16:37.000 That's also along the argument of like some crime is good, like some law is evil.
01:16:42.000 And like the Nazis, for instance, they made things legal that were evil.
01:16:46.000 And then they would go and round up Jews and it was legal.
01:16:49.000 So the crime would be to lie to the authorities and say, I don't have Jews in my house.
01:16:52.000 And then you save these people's lives.
01:16:54.000 So there are instances where you need to let people rise up to fix the system.
01:16:58.000 Right.
01:16:58.000 I mean, imagine how flock cameras would have been used if there were a million flock cameras during COVID.
01:17:03.000 Yeah, of course.
01:17:05.000 In Britain, I heard.
01:17:06.000 So these things all have utility.
01:17:07.000 But the question is, you always have to think to yourself if I'm going to create this tremendous power, right?
01:17:13.000 And it's not just that it's a camera, it's that everything is recorded and networked and searchable.
01:17:17.000 It's the scale that changes everything, right?
01:17:20.000 A bucket of water is one problem, a tsunami is a different problem, right?
01:17:23.000 They're both water, but the scale is very different.
01:17:26.000 If you're going to give this power to somebody, you have to ask yourself, all right, I'm not worried about giving it to that dude.
01:17:31.000 I trust that dude.
01:17:32.000 He's going to do the right thing with it.
01:17:33.000 But he's not in the job forever.
01:17:36.000 Someone else gets control.
01:17:38.000 Not to change the subject, but the J6 pipe bomber, we have the FBI released one minute of footage of like choppy black and white footage because the feds are in control of who sees the footage.
01:17:49.000 So there are definitely thousands and thousands of images of this pipe bomber walking around DC, and yet they get to control what everybody sees.
01:17:56.000 Same thing with January 6th.
01:17:57.000 So if the feds are in control of that, if the cops, It's like, oh, but you know, I trust them.
01:18:01.000 I don't.
01:18:02.000 Sorry.
01:18:02.000 If this power was in the hands of my worst enemy, what could they do to me?
01:18:07.000 Exactly.
01:18:08.000 Yeah.
01:18:08.000 Nah, but the truth is, if I had the power, I would be altruistic.
01:18:11.000 Beneficent.
01:18:12.000 Yeah.
01:18:12.000 Yes.
01:18:13.000 Beneficent.
01:18:14.000 So don't destroy flock cameras.
01:18:16.000 Only off cameras, but definitely if you do destroy flock cameras, you're fine.
01:18:19.000 I would love to give, you know, if someone said, you know, like if like a being came to me and said, we're going to allow you to give one person, Supreme authority and ultimate power of earth.
01:18:31.000 I'd be like, Ian, hands down.
01:18:34.000 Hands down.
01:18:35.000 And then you take a bunch of meds and kill everybody.
01:18:38.000 Oh, no.
01:18:39.000 You got to build a better system.
01:18:40.000 This is what I want the Chinese to do set up a republic so they can go down.
01:18:42.000 And the Iranians, too.
01:18:44.000 They need a republic.
01:18:44.000 They call it the People's Republic of China.
01:18:47.000 And the Iranian Republic, they need to actually make a republic and let go of the power.
01:18:53.000 We're heading in the opposite direction.
01:18:54.000 I heard that back.
01:18:54.000 I wouldn't give Ian the power because he'd give it to a dog or something.
01:18:56.000 I don't want it.
01:18:57.000 What we need to do is decentralize the authority somehow.
01:19:00.000 But if you give everyone access to the flat.
01:19:02.000 I feel like there's this thing called like a constitution or something that we could.
01:19:05.000 Richie, if you had.
01:19:06.000 You ever see that movie with.
01:19:09.000 What's his face?
01:19:10.000 Ricky Gervais, I think.
01:19:12.000 No, no, no, no.
01:19:12.000 It's not Ricky Gervais.
01:19:13.000 It's.
01:19:14.000 Who's the guy from Shaun of the Dead?
01:19:16.000 Oh, I know.
01:19:17.000 Simon Pegg.
01:19:17.000 Yeah.
01:19:18.000 Yeah.
01:19:18.000 You ever see the movie?
01:19:19.000 Hot Fuzz?
01:19:20.000 You're talking about Hot Fuzz?
01:19:21.000 He's also in that.
01:19:21.000 You ever see the movie where he gets.
01:19:22.000 What do you call your muscles?
01:19:23.000 It's called Absolutely Anything, I think it's called, where he gets aliens to give him reality warping powers.
01:19:30.000 At the end, he gives it to his dog.
01:19:31.000 Oh.
01:19:33.000 Yeah, he's like, oh, nobody should have this.
01:19:34.000 And he gives it to the dog.
01:19:35.000 The dog is Robin Williams, I guess.
01:19:37.000 Oh, am I the dog in this situation?
01:19:39.000 No, I'm saying, how many people would you kill if you had that power?
01:19:43.000 Anybody who messes with you guys know what Death Note is?
01:19:47.000 I think I've heard it, but I don't remember.
01:19:47.000 Yeah.
01:19:49.000 I do, yeah.
01:19:49.000 The anime?
01:19:50.000 Oh, it's anime.
01:19:52.000 Manga into anime, but that's how they all go.
01:19:54.000 So, a high school kid finds a notebook.
01:19:56.000 Yeah.
01:19:57.000 There's Grim Reapers.
01:19:58.000 In Japanese, it's called Shinigami, Death God.
01:20:01.000 And one of them comes up.
01:20:03.000 They each have a notebook.
01:20:04.000 So, Death Gods can write your name down, and whatever life you had left, they get.
01:20:09.000 So, they live in this Death God realm where they just write down people's names and write their cause of death.
01:20:13.000 So, this one, he's got two because, you know, happenstance.
01:20:17.000 He drops it to see what happens in the human world.
01:20:19.000 High school kid finds it and he's like an honor student.
01:20:22.000 And he decides he writes a guy's name down, the guy dies.
01:20:25.000 I was like, holy crap, this is real.
01:20:26.000 So, he decides he's going to kill every criminal on Earth, all from heart attacks, so that everybody recognizes a pattern has emerged and that someone is killing everybody and it's an intentional act.
01:20:38.000 What would you guys do with it?
01:20:39.000 How does he know they're a criminal, though?
01:20:41.000 See, now you're getting the philosophy of Death Note.
01:20:44.000 Because, like, if he watches too much CNN, that's what he did.
01:20:47.000 He would watch TV and pull up, and he would watch TV and then see.
01:20:51.000 Which network?
01:20:52.000 So, in the anime, you have to know what they look like and know their name.
01:20:57.000 And you have to be thinking about that specific person.
01:21:00.000 That way, you don't accidentally kill people with different names.
01:21:02.000 He then got access, because his dad was a cop, to police records and he would use that.
01:21:06.000 But aside from that, if you had a notebook that you could write on anybody's name and kill them, how many people would you kill?
01:21:10.000 Oh, my God.
01:21:11.000 Nobody.
01:21:12.000 We used to kill a lot.
01:21:15.000 What you see in his eyes?
01:21:16.000 He's like a lot.
01:21:16.000 Quite a bit.
01:21:17.000 I've got a long list.
01:21:18.000 The 13, 14, 1500s in Europe, they would.
01:21:20.000 Every year they'd kill 1% of their population.
01:21:23.000 Trump.
01:21:23.000 The worst psychopaths, you know.
01:21:24.000 Trump is in it, actually.
01:21:25.000 I'm sure they would execute him.
01:21:27.000 That's what contributed to the Western civilization being a high trust society.
01:21:27.000 Trump is actually in it.
01:21:31.000 We killed off all the low trust people.
01:21:33.000 So after Death Note's one of the most popular anime and manga of all time.
01:21:37.000 Whoa.
01:21:37.000 And then this was, I think.
01:21:40.000 Donald Trump.
01:21:40.000 It is.
01:21:41.000 Wow.
01:21:41.000 Monkey Trump.
01:21:42.000 So something like, I don't know, seven years after the end, or maybe like 10 years after the end of Death Note, they did a one shot, which is like an epilogue, where some kid.
01:21:52.000 Finds the notebook.
01:21:53.000 And then I'm sorry, I think Ryuk gives the kid the death note, like, we're going to do this again.
01:22:00.000 But the kid's not stupid.
01:22:01.000 And he's like, I'm not going to use this.
01:22:02.000 I'm going to sell it.
01:22:03.000 So then he publicly announces to the world somehow, like the internet, that it's for sale.
01:22:07.000 It's actually really great writing.
01:22:09.000 And then everyone's like, stupid.
01:22:10.000 There's no way you can collect the money.
01:22:12.000 The moment they find out who has it, you're done.
01:22:14.000 So what he does is he says, you know, Donald Trump offers like a trillion dollars for the death note so they can kill anybody they want.
01:22:21.000 And he says, Deposit $5 million in the bank account of every Japanese citizen, and then I'll transfer the death note to you.
01:22:29.000 So that way they can't figure out who the beneficiary is because he's like, Everyone in Japan will get the same benefit as me, but we'll all be rich.
01:22:35.000 And so then Trump buys it, and Trump has the death note.
01:22:38.000 And then he kills everybody in Japan?
01:22:40.000 I don't remember exactly what happened.
01:22:42.000 But they don't call him Trump, but it's very obviously Trump.
01:22:45.000 Oh, it's clear.
01:22:45.000 Yeah.
01:22:46.000 Yeah.
01:22:46.000 Wow.
01:22:47.000 To be fair to Light Yagami, he did kill a lot of convicted criminals too.
01:22:51.000 Mostly they were convicted, but then he started just killing people accused that were on the TV.
01:22:54.000 Yeah, yeah, he went overboard.
01:22:55.000 It's kind of an argument for monarchy or feudal aristocracy.
01:22:58.000 Like, if you think about a family that's groomed to just care about the long term well being of that nation rather than changing of power every four years or whatever term.
01:23:08.000 Now, here's the other thing, too.
01:23:10.000 So long in the show, so long as their death is within the realm of physical possibility, you can direct how they die however you want.
01:23:19.000 So, for example, if you say a guy in New York tomorrow will die in Los Angeles, that's impossible.
01:23:25.000 So he'll have a heart attack.
01:23:27.000 If the cause of death, as written, cannot be carried out as written because it's physically impossible, they just have a heart attack.
01:23:31.000 Would you be like, I want an albatross to carry him 600 yards out into the ocean?
01:23:36.000 No, because an albatross can't lift a human.
01:23:38.000 But what Light does is he says, he says, like, the prison inmate stabs himself and then writes in his own blood on the wall and then dies, and it happens.
01:23:49.000 This is it.
01:23:49.000 I don't like it because crime does not equal evil.
01:23:52.000 There's so many criminals that, and then it's not even the argument about some things shouldn't be illegal.
01:23:59.000 Not a single person.
01:24:00.000 What's that?
01:24:01.000 That's why we have a legal system.
01:24:02.000 Yeah.
01:24:03.000 But I mean, like, there are people who are evil who are going to kill, like, Like in self defense, you wouldn't stop somebody, you know, like you wouldn't kill them.
01:24:11.000 Well, if it was in self defense, but I would be able to do that on the note.
01:24:14.000 No, no, let's put it this way.
01:24:15.000 Like, let me ask you.
01:24:16.000 You're in a convenience store.
01:24:17.000 Yeah.
01:24:18.000 And you just happen to be carrying your beautiful SCAR 20S and it's fully decked out, 30 round mag.
01:24:24.000 And a guy comes in and he puts a gun to the old lady clerk's head and says, I'd kill him.
01:24:28.000 And he pulls, you shoot him dead.
01:24:29.000 100%.
01:24:30.000 Now, what happens if you are across the street and you got your SCAR 20S fully decked out and you can hit him from there?
01:24:35.000 You're going to do it, right?
01:24:36.000 If I could do it from across the street.
01:24:37.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:24:37.000 Perfect.
01:24:38.000 Now you're on a rooftop.
01:24:39.000 You know, 500 feet out, and you see the guy point the gun and pull the hammer back, and you got the SCAR 20s, they're fantastic.
01:24:45.000 You know, 308.
01:24:46.000 You take them out.
01:24:47.000 Yes.
01:24:47.000 Now, you're watching on TV a hostage situation, and there's a guy with a knife to the throat of a child, and he's digging it in, and you have the notebook.
01:24:55.000 Oh, and they're like, John Smith right now is about to kill this child at the same time?
01:25:00.000 And you're like, oh, yeah, I'd do it then.
01:25:02.000 And then you write like after the fact, or like abstract, if it's actually right there and I can prevent it from happening, yeah.
01:25:08.000 But like you're watching on TV a thousand miles away, and you have the notebook, and you.
01:25:11.000 Yeah, I'd do it then.
01:25:11.000 So let's say that there's like, Saving a life, right?
01:25:13.000 Yeah, you're saving a life.
01:25:14.000 That's the self-sufficiency.
01:25:15.000 It's at the same time.
01:25:17.000 Where's the limit?
01:25:18.000 Driving recklessly.
01:25:19.000 What if someone's driving recklessly and you have a drone watching them and you can open fire on the car?
01:25:24.000 Hold on, hold on.
01:25:25.000 I don't want to deviate.
01:25:27.000 So I'm trying to go somewhere with this.
01:25:28.000 I don't want to deviate.
01:25:29.000 So my next question was obviously international conflict, foreign affairs, war, right?
01:25:33.000 So we find out that a strike is about to be carried out somewhere.
01:25:42.000 Would you be like, I'm going to stop this and write the name of a foreign world leader or whatever?
01:25:46.000 Yeah.
01:25:47.000 Like Vladimir Putin's about to invade Ukraine.
01:25:48.000 Yeah, because I would be saving lives.
01:25:51.000 I think that's completely wrong.
01:25:52.000 Or what if they're about to bomb a school in Iran?
01:25:55.000 Ooh.
01:25:56.000 Who's about to?
01:25:57.000 Russia?
01:25:57.000 The United States.
01:25:58.000 Or the United States?
01:25:58.000 Well, I mean, it actually.
01:26:00.000 So here's the thing.
01:26:01.000 Right, so who's on my death list?
01:26:03.000 You don't know who's controlling the drone you're going to stop.
01:26:04.000 You know what I mean?
01:26:05.000 But I'm saying, you've got Putin declares we're sending troops into eastern Ukraine.
01:26:10.000 Would you write Putin down?
01:26:12.000 Yeah.
01:26:12.000 But what if that's going to kill them right then?
01:26:14.000 Yeah.
01:26:14.000 What if it triggers World War III?
01:26:16.000 You got to run out of names at that point.
01:26:17.000 You're not just writing them down like crazy.
01:26:19.000 It just never ends.
01:26:19.000 Well, that's why I don't want that power.
01:26:21.000 You know, that's the whole point.
01:26:22.000 I need to know everything.
01:26:23.000 I need to know exactly who I was killing and what the effects were from that to write them off.
01:26:27.000 Tufflin kind of tried to go down that road of killing all the bad guys.
01:26:31.000 It doesn't work very well.
01:26:31.000 Yeah, it doesn't work.
01:26:32.000 It's a pretty quick year of the bad guy.
01:26:33.000 That's why I'm like, there's a fine line.
01:26:35.000 So in your other examples, it was all immediate.
01:26:37.000 It's like self defense.
01:26:38.000 Yeah.
01:26:39.000 Am I having to do it for self defense right there?
01:26:41.000 But if I'm making a calculated decision, I'm going to kill these people to save the world, that's different.
01:26:41.000 Yeah.
01:26:47.000 It's just.
01:26:48.000 When you get to that scale, you don't know that you're actually saving the world when you do this, you know?
01:26:51.000 And I'm lucky that I'm not in that position, so I don't have to make those choices, you know?
01:26:55.000 Although, technically, I think that because the window for the death note is 28 days, you could write every world leader's name, all come together, go on TV, and declare world peace.
01:27:05.000 Because you can control their actions before they die, you'd have to sacrifice them to have them all come together and sign a treaty of world peace.
01:27:11.000 And then.
01:27:12.000 Would they have to die if they signed that treaty?
01:27:13.000 Could they live?
01:27:14.000 Well, in order to control their actions, they have to die.
01:27:16.000 You can control their actions before death.
01:27:17.000 Oh.
01:27:18.000 But what you do is.
01:27:19.000 You make the point of death, martyrdom.
01:27:19.000 It's tough.
01:27:22.000 From, like, choose your evil global, you know, terror group.
01:27:27.000 And then all the world leaders came together to end, and then this one terror group kills them.
01:27:31.000 And then you have the whole world united against one terror group, and then you get world peace.
01:27:34.000 How long is that world peace going to last, though?
01:27:36.000 I know.
01:27:37.000 Yeah.
01:27:37.000 Yeah.
01:27:39.000 And what's the other fallout from my actions?
01:27:41.000 I'm on fire at this point.
01:27:42.000 So, what's the.
01:27:43.000 It's like Colin, where I'm picking and choosing.
01:27:44.000 Like, we need a notebook that changes human behavior.
01:27:47.000 What's the story of the.
01:27:50.000 It's like Plato and Socrates or whatever, that if you were invisible, that all people.
01:27:55.000 Do you know what I'm talking about?
01:27:57.000 Like, this.
01:27:58.000 How people would treat you if you were invisible.
01:27:59.000 No, no, no, no.
01:28:00.000 That all people, when given the ability to commit crimes without accountability, will do so.
01:28:05.000 Let me look that up.
01:28:05.000 Yeah.
01:28:06.000 What is that called?
01:28:07.000 Yeah.
01:28:08.000 I know the theory you're talking about.
01:28:09.000 There's a name for it.
01:28:11.000 I think people don't realize how often.
01:28:12.000 Ring of Gygus.
01:28:13.000 Crimes.
01:28:14.000 And they don't even know it.
01:28:16.000 The story of the Ring of Gygus, it's from Plato.
01:28:20.000 And he argues that someone finds a ring that grants them invisibility.
01:28:23.000 And when they.
01:28:26.000 Let's see.
01:28:27.000 The legend is Gygus of Lydia, blah, blah, blah.
01:28:30.000 It grants.
01:28:31.000 Using the ring as an example, this section of the Republic considers whether a rational, intelligent person who has no need to fear negative consequences for committing an injustice would nevertheless act justly.
01:28:40.000 And.
01:28:40.000 You know, what do you guys think?
01:28:45.000 If you were given a ring of invisibility, would you wrong anybody for any reason, no matter how minor?
01:28:51.000 No.
01:28:52.000 You wouldn't walk into a casino and just take $1,000 chip, it's gone.
01:28:56.000 No, I don't even want to win the lottery.
01:28:57.000 Like, I want to build it from scratch.
01:28:59.000 So, I don't think I would do that.
01:29:00.000 And I know a lot of people.
01:29:01.000 Richard would snatch all the 25,000 chips.
01:29:03.000 We all have the opportunity.
01:29:04.000 We can all commit crimes all day long.
01:29:07.000 Yes, yes, but the point about the ring is that most people don't.
01:29:13.000 The argument is that.
01:29:14.000 You, an upstanding citizen, when given a ring of invisibility, would commit crimes you otherwise would not because you can't get caught.
01:29:20.000 I would go to like the best waves in the world and just drop in on everybody and surf whatever wave I wanted.
01:29:26.000 That's the only crime I would commit because no one would know that I was dropping in on them.
01:29:30.000 That's the crime I would commit because then I can surf whatever wave I want and they don't have to say, hey, you dropped in on me.
01:29:35.000 So, like environmental crimes?
01:29:36.000 Yeah, I go to Pipeline.
01:29:38.000 Crimes of inconvenience.
01:29:40.000 Yeah, yeah.
01:29:41.000 You wouldn't just want to go to a casino.
01:29:44.000 So, in all reality, if you took.
01:29:46.000 High value chips from a casino, you're never cashing those in.
01:29:49.000 It's impossible.
01:29:50.000 The moment you walk in with them, they're like, Where'd you get these?
01:29:52.000 Like, it's not like they track all of the high.
01:29:57.000 Most people are not playing with thousand dollar chips.
01:29:59.000 So, casinos, that's why that dude in Vegas who snatched all of the chips and then fled got caught because you can't use them.
01:30:07.000 Yeah.
01:30:08.000 How?
01:30:09.000 They're going to track everything.
01:30:09.000 They track everything you do.
01:30:11.000 There's no reality where you can even buy them.
01:30:14.000 So, if somebody went to a, so this was a, I think it was a Bellagio, he ran in a motorcycle helmet, ran in, grabbed a bunch of chips and ran out.
01:30:21.000 If you're like a mafioso, you can't do anything with them because when you buy 100K in chips with 25,000 chips, they write your name down, take a picture of you, and say, You have four.
01:30:32.000 You know, I had this book when I was little, and in the book, it was like a children's book, but they got this cube when they could wish for anything and it would appear.
01:30:39.000 And then they found out halfway through the book that it was coming from somewhere else, it was being taken from someone else.
01:30:45.000 So no matter how much you want and how much you desire, it's someone else, it's coming from somewhere.
01:30:51.000 Yeah, you've got to have a moral code.
01:30:53.000 Like most, I mean, most crimes aren't caught.
01:30:55.000 Most people commit crimes and it's not caught.
01:30:57.000 We just don't commit them because we have a moral compass.
01:31:00.000 We have a moral code.
01:31:00.000 I guess that's the question.
01:31:01.000 Crimes like jaywalking.
01:31:02.000 I would jaywalk more if I had an invisible ring.
01:31:05.000 Well, so how about this?
01:31:06.000 If you had telekinesis, would you cheat at a casino?
01:31:10.000 No.
01:31:11.000 You play roulette, you put the max bet $200 on $26, and then you're just like, whoop.
01:31:18.000 Because I do try and do that.
01:31:19.000 $7,500.
01:31:19.000 You use the force.
01:31:20.000 Or $7,000.
01:31:22.000 She tries to use the force.
01:31:22.000 I think that.
01:31:24.000 What do you mean?
01:31:24.000 I do it anyway.
01:31:25.000 I'm actively trying to do that?
01:31:26.000 I ask.
01:31:27.000 I asked the roulette dealers, is using magic cheating?
01:31:33.000 Yeah.
01:31:33.000 And you get flagged and they follow you around.
01:31:36.000 No, I said that.
01:31:36.000 I said, if I use magic to make the ball land where I want, is that cheating?
01:31:39.000 They just laugh.
01:31:40.000 And I'm like, how about the telekinesis device?
01:31:42.000 Yeah, you have a profile.
01:31:43.000 Oh, that one.
01:31:45.000 But because I know your head's going to end up on Woodvice.
01:31:48.000 They will kick you off any game if you're winning.
01:31:49.000 Oh, yeah.
01:31:50.000 You can't win at a casino.
01:31:52.000 Let me explain to everyone.
01:31:53.000 You can't win at a casino because they won't let you.
01:31:55.000 If you ever actually were on a heater and winning a lot of money, they will tell you to stop no matter what the game is.
01:31:59.000 Yeah, you're shut down.
01:32:00.000 Yeah.
01:32:01.000 Oh, it's crazy.
01:32:01.000 Yeah, but Polymarket is awesome.
01:32:04.000 Have you seen the Polymarket on Lindsay Clancy?
01:32:06.000 No, no.
01:32:07.000 That's why I was being sarcastic.
01:32:08.000 Oh, man, how much money they make.
01:32:09.000 The thing is, though, with prediction markets, you don't wait for the end.
01:32:13.000 You can cash out before.
01:32:14.000 So the only thing you really need to know about a prediction market is will press occur in your favor?
01:32:19.000 I wonder if there was a prediction market for the hung jury.
01:32:21.000 I bet you there is.
01:32:22.000 Well, that's basically, that's, did you see George Santos got banned because it was whether or not he would appear at the State of the Union?
01:32:32.000 Like, why are we doing this?
01:32:35.000 Do we really need to make.
01:32:37.000 Betting markets on everything.
01:32:39.000 I think it's the train AI.
01:32:41.000 It's the train AI so that our computer overlords are actually the ones engineering it.
01:32:45.000 There was a prediction market on it.
01:32:46.000 Figure out how to do it.
01:32:47.000 There was activity.
01:32:49.000 Oh, right.
01:32:50.000 Uh huh.
01:32:50.000 Yeah.
01:32:51.000 So there's one for me.
01:32:51.000 Yeah.
01:32:52.000 That's why I'm looking at you because you're probably the only person who buys in on it.
01:32:55.000 It's true.
01:32:56.000 Oh, my gosh.
01:32:57.000 That's crazy.
01:32:59.000 Yes, on the outcome of the Lindsey Clancy trial.
01:33:02.000 And see how people react to predictions.
01:33:04.000 I mean, I think we bet because it's fun to bet.
01:33:06.000 Hey, Richie.
01:33:07.000 But I got one for you.
01:33:08.000 This is sick.
01:33:09.000 Who will attend a White House press briefing this year?
01:33:09.000 Also, like desperate time.
01:33:12.000 Currently, I'm number one.
01:33:13.000 You are.
01:33:14.000 Yeah.
01:33:14.000 Really?
01:33:15.000 88,000 wage.
01:33:16.000 Not very big.
01:33:17.000 But the reason, when I found out that they made a prediction market based on me, I'm kind of offended by that.
01:33:23.000 Let me know and I'll pop a bet in there.
01:33:25.000 See, that's what I'm going to do.
01:33:28.000 I already publicly announced on this show, and you can see exactly when.
01:33:31.000 I said on this show, I was talking to Lisa and I said, let him know I want to come to a press briefing.
01:33:36.000 I don't care which one.
01:33:38.000 And they said, well, Karen Lovett's out, so we'll let you know.
01:33:40.000 Like, as soon as we do, they were like, Tim, you can come whenever you want.
01:33:42.000 Just send us a message, we'll walk you in.
01:33:45.000 So I said, I do intend to go, but I have questions.
01:33:50.000 I have questions.
01:33:51.000 So, what does it mean to attend a press briefing?
01:33:54.000 What constitutes proof?
01:33:56.000 Let's see.
01:33:57.000 Resolves yes if Tim Pool attends any White House press briefing, which takes place in the James S. Brady press briefing room after issuance and before 2027.
01:34:07.000 So, does that mean I have to be in the room?
01:34:10.000 Is it attending a press briefing if I'm just outside the room watching and filming, but I don't open the door?
01:34:15.000 You got to be in there.
01:34:16.000 And what if it's in the oval?
01:34:17.000 Because the office, you know, the whole thing has to be in the oval.
01:34:19.000 The press briefing has to be in the oval.
01:34:20.000 It says, it says in the press briefing room.
01:34:22.000 What if I take a picture of myself outside the room saying, heading to the press briefing today, I'm here, but I never actually go in?
01:34:29.000 What if I put on a beanie?
01:34:31.000 I have a White House press pass.
01:34:32.000 What if I put on a beanie and a pool mask?
01:34:34.000 Yeah.
01:34:34.000 And a mask?
01:34:35.000 You literally just wear my whole clothes.
01:34:36.000 And I'm just like, yeah, I identify.
01:34:38.000 So here's the point it resolves to yes.
01:34:41.000 As long as any news agency or I claim I was there, whether or not I actually was.
01:34:48.000 So I've thought of a couple scenarios.
01:34:51.000 What if I take a picture outside and I'm like at the White House press briefing today?
01:34:55.000 People are going to say, that proves he was there.
01:34:57.000 He took a picture outside, right?
01:34:59.000 What if I never actually go in?
01:35:01.000 How about this?
01:35:02.000 What if I say I'm going, but I don't post a picture?
01:35:04.000 I say, I will be at the White House press briefing today.
01:35:06.000 And then no one sees me on January 1st.
01:35:11.000 I post the photo saying, yeah, I was there.
01:35:12.000 I said I was there.
01:35:14.000 So, the issue is, Kalshi says, even if I was there, unless it's confirmed before the end of the day, it doesn't matter if I was.
01:35:23.000 So, let's say I go and say nothing.
01:35:24.000 And then next March, I post that I was there.
01:35:26.000 Like, it doesn't matter.
01:35:27.000 It had to have been proven before the closure.
01:35:30.000 But what if I tweet, just text, I am currently here?
01:35:33.000 And you're wearing a burqa and nobody.
01:35:34.000 No, I'm here.
01:35:36.000 So, no one actually sees any photos or evidence.
01:35:38.000 Like, what if I tweeted right now from the studio in West Virginia?
01:35:40.000 I am at the White House press briefing.
01:35:41.000 There needs to be something in that that says what it takes to prove it.
01:35:46.000 My understanding is that if I go live from the studio and I point the camera, I pull the screen, I say, I am about to tweet right now that I'm actually at the White House press briefing, and then I do, that will count as me having been here.
01:36:00.000 This is like the invasion of Venezuela.
01:36:02.000 A bunch of people were mad because it didn't count as an invasion.
01:36:05.000 I guess they're like, but we put boots on the ground and.
01:36:05.000 Yeah.
01:36:09.000 And that was an invasion.
01:36:09.000 There's got to be some fine print on all these.
01:36:11.000 Some lawyer is drafting some fine print.
01:36:13.000 I read this contract and I'm like, this is going to get wonky.
01:36:16.000 It's just stupid.
01:36:17.000 It'll end up in litigation.
01:36:18.000 So, why do we need to bet on that?
01:36:19.000 So, here's the problem.
01:36:20.000 Because we're training the AI.
01:36:21.000 They get their vague either way, right?
01:36:23.000 Exactly, they're making money.
01:36:24.000 Here's the problem.
01:36:25.000 I was at a press briefing last year.
01:36:27.000 What if I take a picture from it last year, post it right now, and say, just attended, or having attended this recent press briefing was absolutely incredible.
01:36:37.000 I'm glad I get to go to the White House and see these things.
01:36:40.000 It's ambiguous that I actually go.
01:36:43.000 I said I did, but I never really said I went now.
01:36:47.000 So they're going to be fighting like crazy.
01:36:49.000 Like, does this, did he go?
01:36:50.000 Like, he said he did.
01:36:50.000 I don't understand.
01:36:51.000 Others are going to say, the people who bet no are going to be like, no, he did.
01:36:53.000 That's an old photo.
01:36:54.000 That's not old.
01:36:55.000 That's him there now.
01:36:56.000 No, you can't have your money.
01:36:56.000 I want my money.
01:36:57.000 It's insane.
01:36:59.000 And then, so that's the craziest scenario.
01:37:02.000 If I take the picture from last year that no one's ever seen before and post it now and say, really excited to have attended the press briefing, learned so much.
01:37:15.000 There needs to be a Kalshi certifier, like a team of elite people from Kalshi.
01:37:20.000 That are just all around the world at all times.
01:37:20.000 Right.
01:37:22.000 What are the odds of that?
01:37:23.000 Here's what I'm going to do.
01:37:24.000 Here's what I'm going to do right now.
01:37:26.000 Let's bet on it.
01:37:26.000 Let's bet on it.
01:37:27.000 I am going to put on the exact same clothes that I wore last year when I went.
01:37:32.000 I'm going to go.
01:37:33.000 Take a picture in the back of myself.
01:37:36.000 Then I'm going to tweet, attending the press briefing was really incredible.
01:37:39.000 It was so amazing to see.
01:37:41.000 I'll never, and then I'll write, I'll never forget how amazing Carolyn Levitt was when she was.
01:37:45.000 You know, doing the press briefings.
01:37:47.000 So it's very ambiguous.
01:37:49.000 2026 has been such a good year.
01:37:51.000 Make that a good point.
01:37:52.000 The reason why it's ambiguous is that I want it to be maybe it was 2025.
01:37:58.000 Maybe he's saying he's there now.
01:38:00.000 Everyone will start fighting over whether I did or did not go.
01:38:04.000 And then how will they be able to determine it?
01:38:07.000 Now, here's the best part.
01:38:08.000 If they can't determine based on me literally posting, I went to the press briefing because it may be the year before and they don't pay out, and then on January 1st, I just tweet, Here's the other photos from when I was there at JD Vance's press briefing.
01:38:21.000 I said I was there.
01:38:22.000 Why wasn't that good enough?
01:38:24.000 It's insane.
01:38:25.000 The point I'm bringing up is this We had a guy in New York wager on the temperature of New York, bring a blow dryer and blast the sensor so that it would guarantee to hit and he'd make money.
01:38:37.000 People are betting that I will or will not be there, and I did not agree they could do that.
01:38:42.000 So if I make it, so if I do this, everyone's going to be fighting over whether I was there or not.
01:38:47.000 Cal, she will have to make a determination as to whether or not it's proof that I was there.
01:38:50.000 What if I wasn't?
01:38:52.000 What if Cal, she says Tim Pool was there, and I say, Whoa, whoa, whoa, that was just me saying from last year.
01:38:56.000 I never, I did not go.
01:38:57.000 And what if the Secret Service guy sees you at the checkpoint and then makes the bet?
01:39:00.000 Is that like insider trading?
01:39:01.000 That's not allowed?
01:39:02.000 It is allowed.
01:39:05.000 It's not insider trading because I'm in public.
01:39:07.000 What if I go to a restaurant across the street, a cafe, and I say, Everybody in the building right now, there is a prediction market wager on me to attend a press briefing.
01:39:16.000 Oh my God.
01:39:16.000 I'm about to walk across the street and enter that building right now.
01:39:19.000 Do with that information what you will.
01:39:21.000 What if there's a predictions market on Lindsay Clancy and I'm her lawyer?
01:39:25.000 No.
01:39:25.000 Can I bet on it?
01:39:26.000 Yeah, that's insider trading.
01:39:28.000 That's insider trading.
01:39:29.000 I can't, the Telemark guy is not.
01:39:30.000 But that's unfettered trading.
01:39:32.000 And any of my employees cannot make a contract on my attendance.
01:39:37.000 Yeah.
01:39:38.000 But I'm not an employee.
01:39:40.000 I'm a contractor.
01:39:41.000 That's what that matters.
01:39:42.000 It does matter.
01:39:42.000 You're playing a stupid semantic game.
01:39:43.000 That's clearly defined.
01:39:46.000 So I have my own company.
01:39:46.000 I don't know.
01:39:46.000 I thought.
01:39:47.000 I work with Timcast from time to time.
01:39:49.000 I have a contract with Timcast.
01:39:51.000 Okay.
01:39:51.000 Is that still illegal?
01:39:53.000 Yes.
01:39:53.000 What about my brother?
01:39:54.000 It's a violation of the CFTC and it's explicitly against the rules.
01:39:57.000 And you are giving semantics.
01:39:58.000 What about my brother, though?
01:39:59.000 Your brother.
01:39:59.000 He doesn't work.
01:40:00.000 He doesn't have any contracts.
01:40:01.000 Your brother's clean.
01:40:02.000 I'm going to go hang out with my brother.
01:40:03.000 What if he tells his brother?
01:40:04.000 And then I see that beanie walking up.
01:40:06.000 Well, it's already at 71.
01:40:07.000 So you're.
01:40:08.000 I got to be honest.
01:40:09.000 Well, then I'll just put everything I got on there.
01:40:10.000 I feel like if you don't look on here, it's implicating you.
01:40:13.000 You bet $1,000 for $100.
01:40:13.000 Yeah, ads are no good.
01:40:15.000 How about this?
01:40:16.000 I see you coming with your beanie and I tackle you and then I bet no and ensure that you're not.
01:40:21.000 You break my leg so you can't go back in there.
01:40:23.000 What if you put on my clothes and I put on your clothes?
01:40:29.000 You then go in and shake the hand of some journalists be like, Tim Pool, nice to meet you.
01:40:34.000 And then they report.
01:40:36.000 Tim Poole is here.
01:40:37.000 What if you leave and change your name to Tim Poole?
01:40:39.000 Wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on.
01:40:40.000 Let me finish.
01:40:41.000 I'll part of short it.
01:40:42.000 So they say Tim Poole is here because they don't know who you are and they're like, oh, wow, it's Tim Poole.
01:40:46.000 Or someone looks back and then they tweet it.
01:40:48.000 I'm outside and then everyone starts tweeting Tim Poole's the press briefing.
01:40:53.000 It resolves to yes, Tim Poole attended.
01:40:55.000 I then immediately go live outside and say, that's not me.
01:40:58.000 I'm not in there right now.
01:40:59.000 Who is this?
01:41:00.000 But it already paid out.
01:41:01.000 Yeah, I think the question that we're really driving at here is what is Tim Poole?
01:41:07.000 My point ultimately is this.
01:41:09.000 It doesn't matter what's true.
01:41:10.000 These things are predicated upon nothing almost.
01:41:14.000 And what's going to happen is everyone's going to go to war over what really happened because they want money.
01:41:18.000 I think there's some precedent over you being able to sue Kalshi for putting your name on their server and promoting you and using you for their tools.
01:41:25.000 Like people have a right to not be descriptive, not to be, maybe they don't have a right to not be like objectified and used for like malfeasant purposes.
01:41:34.000 And if they're playing games with you to make money and they're using you, that doesn't sound right.
01:41:39.000 Like who decides these are?
01:41:40.000 I will say this.
01:41:40.000 We have a, Kalshi sponsors the show.
01:41:43.000 From time to time.
01:41:45.000 So, we do have a sponsorship from CalSheet that has never stopped me from saying these things, and they've never had an issue with it.
01:41:50.000 I respect that.
01:41:53.000 But I have a question for the lawyers.
01:41:54.000 I mean, what is the legality of them selling contracts in my name about whether or not I will or will not do something?
01:42:00.000 Yeah, who comes up with that?
01:42:01.000 Yes, but like they're using my name and likeness to sell a contract.
01:42:06.000 Do they have a right to use my name and likeness on contract sales?
01:42:09.000 I think they have a right to do that.
01:42:10.000 My concern would be how you can't profit off of it, obviously.
01:42:15.000 You know, like you said, like you obviously can't profit off it because you could manipulate the outcome.
01:42:19.000 But I also argue so they've said that it's a violation of the CFTC inside of.
01:42:24.000 Well, hold on.
01:42:25.000 I am not party to this contract sale.
01:42:27.000 Right.
01:42:28.000 I have nothing to do with it.
01:42:29.000 You're not party to this at all.
01:42:30.000 You want to sell a contract on my name, I can do whatever I want.
01:42:33.000 You can't tell me what I can or can't do.
01:42:35.000 Yeah.
01:42:35.000 You're not a party to it.
01:42:37.000 So I take a lot of issue with this because they've told me I cannot participate, nor anyone in my family or who works for me, in the sale of a contract as to my own actions.
01:42:50.000 I have nothing to this company.
01:42:51.000 I did not approve this.
01:42:52.000 I never signed anything saying they could do it.
01:42:54.000 Yeah.
01:42:55.000 Because if you tell me you're going and then I tell my brother you're going and he bets a shitload of money and makes a ton of money.
01:43:00.000 Yeah.
01:43:01.000 It's complicated.
01:43:01.000 Well, let me ask.
01:43:02.000 And how is it even regulated?
01:43:03.000 Like, where is this incorporated?
01:43:05.000 Is it in a state?
01:43:06.000 Kalshi is all over the country.
01:43:09.000 It's banned in some states.
01:43:10.000 But here's a question for you guys.
01:43:11.000 So if they're allowed to post a picture of me with my name saying you can buy a Tim Pool contract, why can't I do that for LeBron?
01:43:18.000 Why can't I sell pictures of LeBron and call them LeBron contracts and charge people $100 per contract?
01:43:24.000 But what would you be saying about LeBron?
01:43:26.000 He's going to go somewhere?
01:43:27.000 Well, you get a physical contract with his picture on it.
01:43:29.000 Yeah.
01:43:30.000 And it's a rare photo that he sells, but it doesn't matter because they're using my photo without my consent.
01:43:35.000 Right.
01:43:35.000 And it's a contract that he'll eat a banana, at least one banana pudding this year.
01:43:40.000 I think they can use your photo.
01:43:42.000 It's the outcome.
01:43:43.000 You can sell my photo.
01:43:44.000 They're not selling your photo.
01:43:45.000 They're selling contracts in my name.
01:43:47.000 They're not selling your photo.
01:43:48.000 They license those photos?
01:43:50.000 Yeah, that photo is copyrighted.
01:43:51.000 I think that's a.
01:43:53.000 I'm ready to get this photo.
01:43:55.000 Yeah.
01:43:55.000 I mean, I do foresee this becoming a lawsuit, but I think more about how the payout is.
01:44:01.000 Like someone's going to bet and then.
01:44:03.000 There's going to be a photo, and they're going to be disputing what's real and what's not real.
01:44:07.000 I'm going to go ahead and say this.
01:44:09.000 It's an $88,000 pool.
01:44:11.000 I am a small fry in the world of Calci, but AOC is currently sitting on a $200 million pool.
01:44:17.000 Now, hold on.
01:44:18.000 She's a public figure.
01:44:20.000 That's different.
01:44:21.000 So you're allowed to use the images of Trump or Trump's name because of public figure.
01:44:26.000 But there are many people in this who are not.
01:44:29.000 And I do not see how it is legal to create an industry that sells contracts.
01:44:34.000 Using celebrity names when the business of the celebrity is their name and likeness.
01:44:38.000 Well, the contract's a bet.
01:44:40.000 I mean, that's what they're selling.
01:44:41.000 They're selling a bet.
01:44:42.000 Indeed.
01:44:44.000 And you're not a party to it.
01:44:46.000 And they're making money off of it.
01:44:47.000 Right.
01:44:47.000 Yeah.
01:44:48.000 As soon as he reads it, he becomes a party to it.
01:44:50.000 As soon as he sees that it's real, he's now party to the contract.
01:44:53.000 But he's not benefiting from it.
01:44:54.000 Like, he's not part, he's not one of the sides of the contract.
01:44:58.000 He didn't make the contract.
01:44:59.000 He's not benefiting.
01:45:01.000 I just, I'm not knowing that his actions are going to determine who gets money and who doesn't.
01:45:04.000 That's not what I'm talking about.
01:45:05.000 That's a type of benefit.
01:45:06.000 Can I sell a product using Robert Downey Jr.'s name?
01:45:08.000 Yes or no?
01:45:10.000 It doesn't matter what the product is.
01:45:12.000 I'm going to sell you a piece of paper that says Robert Downey Jr., the actor, with a picture of him on it.
01:45:17.000 And you can buy that off the page for 20 bucks.
01:45:18.000 They're selling the opportunity cost.
01:45:20.000 They're selling a bet.
01:45:21.000 You buy an actual contract with my name on it.
01:45:23.000 Do they actually give a picture?
01:45:25.000 You can actually pull up the contract and what it says.
01:45:27.000 What's the contract?
01:45:28.000 There's no picture on it, though.
01:45:29.000 So I'm quiet.
01:45:29.000 Hold on.
01:45:30.000 If I posted Robert Downey Jr., and then under it, it said, buy this contract that says Robert Downey Jr., and it's underneath a picture of Robert Downey Jr., I can do that.
01:45:39.000 So for a contract to exist, There's got to be something on the other side.
01:45:42.000 You've got to actually get some consideration.
01:45:44.000 So, what am I getting if a person buys the contract, the Robert Downey Jr. contract?
01:45:49.000 What do they get?
01:45:50.000 If Robert Downey Jr. eats a banana split by the end of the year, I will send you a second picture of his name.
01:45:56.000 Yeah, because you're not selling Robert Downey Jr.
01:45:59.000 You're selling a bet on whether or not he does something.
01:46:02.000 But you're getting a piece of paper with his name on it to hang up.
01:46:06.000 The contract itself.
01:46:07.000 Are you buying that piece of paper?
01:46:09.000 Are you buying the chance to win more money if you win the bet?
01:46:12.000 I suppose the question is, why would it matter?
01:46:14.000 What if you write a magazine article about Robert Downey Jr. and use a picture of him and then you sell the magazine?
01:46:19.000 Yeah.
01:46:20.000 If I want to.
01:46:21.000 Just take the picture.
01:46:21.000 Okay, question.
01:46:22.000 If on my website, I wrote an article, timcast.com, with a picture of Robert Downey Jr., framed those images of him, and put a quote from my article, I can do that?
01:46:31.000 You can't sell his image like that.
01:46:33.000 It's a newspaper article.
01:46:34.000 It's called fair use, though.
01:46:34.000 It's mine.
01:46:35.000 Yeah, I was going to say, where'd you get it?
01:46:37.000 You can take a piece of.
01:46:40.000 I'll go and find.
01:46:41.000 No, but that's not fair use because the product itself is the.
01:46:45.000 If you're making commentary, that's fair use.
01:46:48.000 So, if that's the product that you're selling, is my commentary on this.
01:46:52.000 If what you're selling is the piece, their likeness, and that's the basis upon which you're selling it, then that's not the same.
01:46:59.000 So, I'm going to take this picture, right?
01:47:02.000 I like that one.
01:47:02.000 Good.
01:47:03.000 Because it's on Wikipedia, so it's in the Creative Commons or it's in the public domain.
01:47:07.000 It might be Creative Commons, but let's just say hypothetically, it's in the public domain.
01:47:10.000 Click in and find out.
01:47:12.000 And then I say, more details, it'll tell you.
01:47:15.000 This is probably Creative Commons non commercial.
01:47:19.000 It's got an author.
01:47:20.000 And if it is Creative Commons non commercial, then you can't use it.
01:47:23.000 Sometimes they say you can use it.
01:47:24.000 You are free to share and make a tribute and share alike.
01:47:26.000 Is there a personality rights warning?
01:47:27.000 Some rights, yeah.
01:47:29.000 Freely licensed public domain.
01:47:31.000 So, oh, it says public domain?
01:47:33.000 Yeah.
01:47:35.000 They've retained some rights, it says.
01:47:36.000 Although this work is freely licensed or in the public domain.
01:47:39.000 Right.
01:47:40.000 It says some rights were raped.
01:47:42.000 But my point is this there are photos in the public domain.
01:47:47.000 I can sell the photo.
01:47:49.000 If it's in the public domain.
01:47:50.000 Yeah.
01:47:51.000 You can put it in your book.
01:47:52.000 Yeah.
01:47:53.000 You can put it in a book and sell the book.
01:47:55.000 I just think that there's an issue with.
01:47:56.000 Are you adding value?
01:47:57.000 Are you doing commentary?
01:47:58.000 Are you doing all those fair use things?
01:48:01.000 My issue with this is.
01:48:03.000 They are monetizing my work without my permission.
01:48:08.000 Are they monetizing your work?
01:48:08.000 Are they, though?
01:48:10.000 They're monetizing your image.
01:48:11.000 No, no.
01:48:12.000 Will I attend a White House press briefing this year?
01:48:14.000 So they're telling people, based on the work Tim Pool does, if certain conditions are met, we get to profit off of it and you can buy a product from us.
01:48:22.000 But it's not really your work.
01:48:23.000 It's a chance of the work happening.
01:48:25.000 Yeah.
01:48:25.000 Well, no, no, no.
01:48:26.000 My work is something different.
01:48:27.000 This is my work.
01:48:28.000 Whether I cover a story or not is a question of the work that I do.
01:48:31.000 Coverage is the work.
01:48:33.000 So what they are doing is they're saying Tim Pool does stuff.
01:48:36.000 Yes.
01:48:36.000 Yeah.
01:48:36.000 And we are selling, they're selling yes and no.
01:48:40.000 So you can buy no, Tim Pool won't go to the White House.
01:48:42.000 Sure.
01:48:43.000 But you're still buying odds.
01:48:44.000 They're not buying your work product.
01:48:45.000 Yeah.
01:48:46.000 They are profiting off of the work that I do.
01:48:48.000 That you did it.
01:48:49.000 Yeah, but people are profiting off the work you do when they talk about you.
01:48:51.000 If they can take your video and do commentary, or someone can go outside and be like, blah, about Tim Pool, and then it goes viral.
01:48:59.000 But when people do that, I can take that video and I can use it.
01:49:02.000 But you can take this and use this to.
01:49:02.000 Right.
01:49:06.000 I cannot engage in this the way I can with it.
01:49:08.000 Right.
01:49:09.000 But you are using this.
01:49:10.000 You're actually using their content right now, right?
01:49:13.000 No, no, no.
01:49:14.000 I am not selling contracts on whether or not.
01:49:16.000 Okay, here's what we can do.
01:49:17.000 So I can make a contract that says, Will CalShee pay out yes on Tim Pool attending the White House press briefing?
01:49:21.000 I guess you could.
01:49:22.000 What would prevent that?
01:49:23.000 Then, okay.
01:49:25.000 That'd be kind of fun.
01:49:26.000 You should do that.
01:49:27.000 Let's do it right now.
01:49:27.000 That's actually a really good idea.
01:49:28.000 Yeah, you should totally do it.
01:49:29.000 Do it on real time.
01:49:30.000 What are the rules on can an individual sell event contracts?
01:49:34.000 Oh, the problem with the contracts like that are the betting and gambling rules.
01:49:38.000 We are heavily rigged.
01:49:39.000 You need to be licensed.
01:49:40.000 Yeah, how about I call Polymarket and I'm like, hey, run a contract.
01:49:44.000 Will Kalshi pay out yes on Tim Pool attending the White House press briefing?
01:49:48.000 And then I can sell those and be like, it's not insider trading.
01:49:52.000 I don't know what they'll end up doing, but I am going to go.
01:49:55.000 If I were to quit my job, liquidate all my Bitcoin, and then just hang out for the next, whatever, three months, four months outside of exactly where you have to enter to get into the White House with a bunch of big dudes just to ensure you don't go in there and bet no.
01:50:07.000 The pool isn't big enough.
01:50:08.000 The pool is not big enough.
01:50:09.000 What do you mean?
01:50:11.000 You can't make any money.
01:50:13.000 If you bet $10 million, you'll get paid out $2,000.
01:50:17.000 A no.
01:50:18.000 I'm betting no.
01:50:20.000 I'm not allowing you to enter.
01:50:22.000 I'm going to physically keep you from entering.
01:50:25.000 Is that insider trading?
01:50:26.000 If you bet $5 million, you'll get paid out $53,000.
01:50:30.000 They had a lawsuit over something similar.
01:50:32.000 Yes, there's no point in betting on that.
01:50:33.000 There's no money in the pool.
01:50:35.000 That's the point.
01:50:37.000 You blow out the odds if you add this.
01:50:39.000 But if I put a lot more money in the pool, then doesn't it go up?
01:50:43.000 I'm going to try to, let's see.
01:50:45.000 $350.
01:50:46.000 It's only $80,000.
01:50:47.000 $350 pays $855.
01:50:50.000 No becomes a favorite.
01:50:53.000 How she has good lawyers.
01:50:54.000 The question is if you can bet no and then ensure that it doesn't.
01:50:58.000 What I don't like is that they're selling contracts in my name, barring me from participation through threat of criminal enforcement.
01:51:06.000 I never agreed they could make wagers in my name.
01:51:08.000 I'm not party to those wagers.
01:51:10.000 I'm not benefiting from them.
01:51:13.000 Why can't I buy something?
01:51:15.000 So let's try this.
01:51:17.000 Someone's selling pictures of LeBron James from the public domain, and LeBron says, I would like to buy one, saying, You're not allowed.
01:51:23.000 Legally.
01:51:24.000 Don't look at me.
01:51:25.000 You'll go to prison if you buy that.
01:51:27.000 That seems insane to me.
01:51:28.000 I don't like this.
01:51:28.000 Yeah, that seems insane.
01:51:29.000 Yeah, George Santos agrees.
01:51:30.000 Yeah.
01:51:31.000 Well, I mean, yes, George Santos, the bet was whether he'd attend the State of the Union.
01:51:35.000 He bet no?
01:51:35.000 What did he do?
01:51:36.000 It's less about pictures, more about selling, will LeBron win the next game?
01:51:40.000 And he can't bet on that.
01:51:42.000 But that's because he's part of an organization that has agreed to these rules and he's a prize to them.
01:51:47.000 So if you're a boxer and you agree to throw the match so that someone can win money, that I understand is criminal.
01:51:54.000 But if you made this wager outside of me with no permission from me or questions or anything, I can do whatever I want.
01:52:02.000 You have no right.
01:52:04.000 Oh, there's a ton of lawsuits on this right now.
01:52:06.000 Really?
01:52:06.000 Yeah.
01:52:07.000 Using people's names and likenesses?
01:52:09.000 About Kalshi and, yeah, essentially who governs them, if it's what you said, the FTC or.
01:52:14.000 Right.
01:52:15.000 They're arguing that.
01:52:18.000 They've argued that if I were to buy on myself for this, now it's banned.
01:52:24.000 But let's say, you know, I told Richie, like, hey, I'm going to go buy that.
01:52:26.000 We'll split the money.
01:52:27.000 That's a criminal element.
01:52:29.000 Let me know.
01:52:29.000 That's under the CNC.
01:52:30.000 Let me know.
01:52:31.000 They can't split the profits.
01:52:33.000 Right?
01:52:33.000 No, no, no.
01:52:34.000 But.
01:52:35.000 They're arguing they would refer it as a criminal action.
01:52:38.000 Like the reporting is that Santos is being criminally investigated for it.
01:52:38.000 Yeah, like you could.
01:52:41.000 I understand, but sure, but if it's criminal, it's not their rule being enforced.
01:52:45.000 Yeah.
01:52:45.000 Some legislature created a rule.
01:52:45.000 Right?
01:52:47.000 Yeah.
01:52:47.000 But this is the point.
01:52:48.000 What gives, how could there be a system created that creates criminal culpability for me without my permission based on actions I would take?
01:52:58.000 I don't think they could ever.
01:52:59.000 I would defend you to the death of the law.
01:52:59.000 I don't know.
01:53:01.000 It's like a law being passed saying specifically Andrew Branca can't buy a hot dog from the store, otherwise, you go to jail.
01:53:06.000 Right.
01:53:07.000 Like that, that's illegal.
01:53:07.000 What?
01:53:08.000 No, that's ridiculous.
01:53:09.000 Or you text me, you say, I'm coming to DC.
01:53:09.000 That's ridiculous.
01:53:11.000 I say, let me know next time you're in DC.
01:53:12.000 Hey, I'm coming to DC for the press briefing.
01:53:14.000 I bet on it.
01:53:14.000 Boom.
01:53:15.000 Yeah.
01:53:16.000 I make a bunch of money.
01:53:17.000 And then I go, hey, Tim, come on.
01:53:18.000 I got a vacation for you.
01:53:20.000 There's no, you know, is that illegal?
01:53:24.000 They decided to sell a contract in my name.
01:53:26.000 And if I decide to buy on it, yes or no, I've committed a crime.
01:53:29.000 That's the argument.
01:53:30.000 But if Richie buys on it, it's not.
01:53:31.000 And then I take you on another contract.
01:53:33.000 No, that's still a crime.
01:53:33.000 It's going to be just like a.
01:53:34.000 I build a skate park.
01:53:35.000 That's still a crime.
01:53:36.000 Why?
01:53:36.000 Inside of trading.
01:53:37.000 I was going to say it's insider trading.
01:53:39.000 If you tell me you're coming to DC, this is the issue that I do not like with this.
01:53:43.000 If I tell you, hey, I'm heading to the press briefing, and then you have inside information as to my actions, and if you buy on it, that's insider trading and it's a crime.
01:53:53.000 But I'm not a trader.
01:53:55.000 Doesn't mean anything.
01:53:56.000 And this isn't regulated.
01:53:57.000 Why am I beholden to that?
01:53:57.000 What if Bill Gates came to you and said, yeah, the stock's going to tank, and then you sold all your stock?
01:54:01.000 It's insider trading.
01:54:02.000 I would never invest in Bill Gates.
01:54:04.000 This is my point.
01:54:05.000 They've created a weird insider trading criminal culpability.
01:54:09.000 Crazy, like the on the fly, random.
01:54:09.000 This is.
01:54:11.000 And now, here's the crazy thing what if, uh, like I tell Ian, I'm going to the press briefing, he's he happened, Richie happens to overhear it and then buys it.
01:54:23.000 Exactly, it says Tim Pool never gave me any information.
01:54:26.000 I heard it from Ian.
01:54:28.000 Then they say, Well, but we know your friend, so we're gonna argue that he informed you, and then I have to defend myself against someone that I know buying this.
01:54:35.000 It's insane.
01:54:36.000 This is absolute insanity.
01:54:37.000 It is crazy.
01:54:38.000 It's, I understand, lawsuits are crazy.
01:54:39.000 I understand if you are a corporate officer.
01:54:43.000 And your wife sells all her stock, and you're like, I never said anything to her, and they're investigating you.
01:54:47.000 But I don't work for Kalshi.
01:54:49.000 I never agreed to let him do this.
01:54:51.000 How could it be possible that Richie has criminal culpability now if he happens to guess right?
01:54:56.000 Or Santos, for that matter?
01:54:57.000 Let's do it and then take it to the Supreme Court.
01:54:59.000 So, yeah, if you get charged with that, I'm your girl.
01:55:02.000 I'm your defense lawyer right here.
01:55:03.000 I'm not.
01:55:04.000 I've actually asked a long time ago why don't we get certain gun restrictions like the machine gun stuff overturned?
01:55:10.000 Yeah.
01:55:11.000 I think I asked you, actually.
01:55:12.000 And it's because nobody wants to get arrested buying a machine gun to then be the precedent.
01:55:17.000 It's insane.
01:55:17.000 Right, it's a 10 year federal felony.
01:55:19.000 Yeah, you've got to have standing.
01:55:20.000 So you go to prison for 10 years.
01:55:22.000 Maybe you win, but nobody wants to go to prison on a gun charge.
01:55:26.000 Yeah.
01:55:26.000 Right.
01:55:27.000 And the courts won't deal with something that's hypothetical.
01:55:30.000 You can't challenge something that's hypothetical.
01:55:32.000 What are some of the court cases up against Kalshi?
01:55:38.000 It's a lot of states that are having a problem because the federal government's allowing it and the states want to regulate it because the states super regulate gambling activities.
01:55:46.000 It's lucrative.
01:55:48.000 There's a couple different states that are suing over that.
01:55:51.000 It's interesting.
01:55:53.000 Yeah, that's the interesting part.
01:55:55.000 I will say this.
01:55:57.000 Kalshi, generally.
01:55:59.000 I think it's fun to track how people are putting money on contracts.
01:55:59.000 I think it's fun.
01:56:02.000 It's the wisdom of the crowd.
01:56:03.000 I think it's informative.
01:56:04.000 I think it's better than polls.
01:56:06.000 My gripe is this one particular issue with what responsibilities do I have when they chose to put my name on there without my permission?
01:56:15.000 Maryland does not like Kalshi.
01:56:17.000 I can tell you that.
01:56:18.000 Maryland definitely does not like Kalshi.
01:56:20.000 Nevada and New Jersey, that's interesting.
01:56:22.000 They're two of the ones that sued.
01:56:24.000 New Jersey, because they had like the most losses.
01:56:27.000 Like everybody's losing money.
01:56:28.000 That's what I'm thinking.
01:56:29.000 So it makes sense if you think Nevada and New Jersey.
01:56:31.000 You've got Atlantic City, and you've got.
01:56:32.000 That's why.
01:56:33.000 Yeah, there you go.
01:56:35.000 What do they have in Maryland?
01:56:36.000 They have Ocean City.
01:56:36.000 Is that gambling?
01:56:37.000 Ocean City?
01:56:38.000 Is that gambling?
01:56:38.000 I don't know.
01:56:38.000 Ocean City, Maryland.
01:56:39.000 They have gambling?
01:56:40.000 No gambling in Ocean City.
01:56:40.000 Why does Maryland care?
01:56:41.000 I'll find out.
01:56:42.000 Maryland does have.
01:56:42.000 Because Maryland has four or five casinos.
01:56:45.000 That's why then.
01:56:45.000 Maryland.
01:56:46.000 So those are the three states that are really into it.
01:56:48.000 It's all mud.
01:56:49.000 Let's grab some of the questions.
01:56:51.000 Interesting.
01:56:52.000 From the members.
01:56:53.000 Settle down says question for Tim.
01:56:55.000 Cal she had to sue the government just to let Americans bet on elections, and you won.
01:56:59.000 Why is DC so scared to let us bet on politics when Wall Street can bet on literally everything else?
01:57:06.000 I find that most of these things, you find a lot of this stuff, there's no reason.
01:57:10.000 It's just, it's the way it's always been, and it's hard to make things move.
01:57:13.000 Like, so what I'm dealing with in West Virginia is why is poker, social poker, not casino poker, illegal?
01:57:19.000 So if me and the boys want to play a game at Texas Hold'em amongst ourselves, there's no house.
01:57:23.000 Why is that illegal?
01:57:25.000 Pokemon is legal.
01:57:26.000 So children can get Pokemon decks, wager money, they can put money in a pot, play a game, and the winner gets the money.
01:57:32.000 That's legal, despite the fact the law says it's illegal.
01:57:36.000 Well, it's because this is how things are done.
01:57:38.000 And to make these changes, you have to tell someone it has to be changed.
01:57:43.000 So, I can tell you why DC doesn't like it.
01:57:45.000 It's because it's too easy to manipulate these things.
01:57:48.000 And you can set up one of these contracts, two politicians are running against each other for office, small numbers like 80 grand, like you have in your thing here.
01:57:55.000 And one of the parties dumps $3 million into it.
01:57:59.000 Yeah.
01:57:59.000 Now it makes it look like their candidates overwhelmingly favored, and perception becomes reality.
01:58:04.000 People say, well, I'm not going to send that guy money.
01:58:06.000 He's going to lose.
01:58:07.000 Kalshi says so.
01:58:08.000 Yep.
01:58:10.000 Indeed.
01:58:10.000 If you guys want to get some questions in for the last few minutes of this year's amazing show.
01:58:15.000 I won a bunch of money in 2016.
01:58:17.000 Oh, yeah.
01:58:18.000 That would have been illegal.
01:58:19.000 That was Predicted back in the day.
01:58:21.000 Remember that?
01:58:22.000 I just met with my buddies who were all like, there's no chance.
01:58:24.000 And I was like, really?
01:58:25.000 Give me your odds.
01:58:25.000 Wow.
01:58:27.000 Predicted was the original, I think.
01:58:31.000 And what's fascinating is that despite being one of the originals, it's basically non existent as far as Polymarket and Kalshi own everything.
01:58:38.000 Yep.
01:58:40.000 He says, How long do you think Clancy would stay in the mental hospital if found not guilty?
01:58:40.000 We got this from Kevin.
01:58:45.000 Massachusetts only requires six months and she hasn't had an episode since the murder.
01:58:48.000 I think she'd be out within a year.
01:58:49.000 And I think it's a good, legitimate question because look, she was only ever a threat to herself and her kids.
01:58:55.000 Well, her kids are safe now, right?
01:58:57.000 I mean, they're gone.
01:58:58.000 And all she has to do is convince somebody that she's not going to kill herself anymore.
01:59:01.000 She's not feeling suicidal and not feel suicidal ever.
01:59:05.000 It's crazy.
01:59:05.000 She's got to convince two state doctors and she's got to convince.
01:59:08.000 There's no mandatory duration that she has to stay in there?
01:59:10.000 No.
01:59:11.000 Six months for observation.
01:59:12.000 This insanity thing's got to go.
01:59:14.000 But hold on, hold on.
01:59:15.000 So, Andrea Yates has been under an insanity, same facts, almost essentially, for 20 years.
01:59:21.000 But she's saying she's a danger to herself.
01:59:24.000 Right, she hasn't challenged it.
01:59:25.000 So, you know, the question is if she doesn't want to be there anymore, how hard is it for her to get out?
01:59:25.000 Right.
01:59:30.000 All she has to do is say, I'm just, I don't feel suicidal anymore.
01:59:33.000 Yeah.
01:59:34.000 I don't feel like she would get out, though.
01:59:35.000 I mean, honestly, the likelihood, but it's possible.
01:59:38.000 That's the problem.
01:59:38.000 I think it's.
01:59:38.000 Sounds stupid.
01:59:39.000 Sounds like somebody's going to game this thing.
01:59:41.000 But I don't think a judge is ever going to let her out.
01:59:42.000 I have the best question ever.
01:59:44.000 Uh-oh.
01:59:45.000 You both have seen Better Call Saul?
01:59:45.000 Okay.
01:59:46.000 Yeah.
01:59:47.000 Of course.
01:59:47.000 Oh, God.
01:59:48.000 It's been a while.
01:59:49.000 Overall, can you give us a ruling on how realistic the courtroom parts are in the show?
01:59:52.000 Okay.
01:59:55.000 It's not that realistic.
01:59:56.000 I mean, some of the lifestyle stuff.
02:00:01.000 When he's doing the hearing, I think this might have been an arbitration with his brother, and he hides the battery, the cell phone battery.
02:00:06.000 Oh, my God.
02:00:06.000 Do you remember that one?
02:00:07.000 No.
02:00:08.000 His older brother had a phobia of electricity.
02:00:11.000 So he's like, anything electronic?
02:00:11.000 Oh.
02:00:13.000 And he's like, there's a phone in your pocket.
02:00:14.000 Yes.
02:00:15.000 And then he opens it, and there's no battery, and he's like, I knew it.
02:00:17.000 And then he's like, actually, and they had the battery in his pocket.
02:00:19.000 He's like, ooh.
02:00:21.000 I mean, that stuff is, yeah, that doesn't really happen.
02:00:23.000 But I will tell you, court is kind of wild, especially like the lower level courts.
02:00:26.000 I don't know if you guys ever watched Night Court.
02:00:27.000 Years ago.
02:00:29.000 Like, you remember Night Court?
02:00:30.000 Like, years ago, you can watch old episodes of it.
02:00:33.000 That stuff happens in the lower level courts.
02:00:35.000 It's crazy.
02:00:36.000 It was like the people that would come in in the middle of the night.
02:00:39.000 Yeah, pro se.
02:00:40.000 It's like the drunk tanks, you know?
02:00:41.000 Pro se people overnight.
02:00:43.000 People who are arrested on petty crimes and stuff.
02:00:45.000 People who are drunk.
02:00:45.000 Is it like lawyers laughing about it to each other during the trial?
02:00:49.000 And you're like, I think.
02:00:50.000 It's like comedy because you're like drunk people.
02:00:53.000 My cousin Vinny is the most accurate legal movie ever made.
02:00:56.000 It's taught in law school, isn't it?
02:00:58.000 Oh, yeah.
02:00:59.000 Yeah, it is the cross examination.
02:01:00.000 But I will tell you, the most accurate ever is the practice.
02:01:03.000 It's old.
02:01:04.000 The practice.
02:01:05.000 Not Law and Order?
02:01:06.000 No.
02:01:07.000 Oh, God.
02:01:08.000 I can't even watch it.
02:01:09.000 It unnerves me so much.
02:01:10.000 I'm like, oh, the practice.
02:01:12.000 Have you ever seen?
02:01:13.000 Didn't they do?
02:01:15.000 I think there was a single season of Law and Order trial by.
02:01:18.000 Yes.
02:01:19.000 And it was mostly the court proceedings and less of the.
02:01:22.000 But it got canceled because it was boring.
02:01:23.000 It was stupid because you don't get breaks like that.
02:01:26.000 It was so wonderful.
02:01:27.000 It was like they go to court for an hour and then they get six hours to prepare.
02:01:30.000 No.
02:01:30.000 Like I'm in court for nine hours straight.
02:01:32.000 I mean, the other thing too.
02:01:33.000 I'll keep, I get a granola bar.
02:01:34.000 Even in Law Order, when they show the court case, I don't think people notice that when they actually, in the show, will mention it's six months later.
02:01:43.000 In the next scene change.
02:01:43.000 Oh, yeah.
02:01:44.000 They're like, this was not, they came back.
02:01:47.000 It was like six months later they came back.
02:01:47.000 I know.
02:01:49.000 I know.
02:01:50.000 And those cases don't happen.
02:01:51.000 I mean, that's not, those crimes don't happen.
02:01:53.000 Well, actually, the writing for Law Order is based on real crimes.
02:01:57.000 Wow.
02:01:58.000 So.
02:01:59.000 No, I guarantee not the SVU.
02:02:00.000 There is no way.
02:02:01.000 No, I was going to, no, I'm thinking the SVU.
02:02:03.000 Oh, the regular Law Order I love.
02:02:04.000 With SVU.
02:02:05.000 OG Law Order.
02:02:06.000 OG Law Order was awesome.
02:02:07.000 There was an SVU that was based on a real case.
02:02:10.000 And it won.
02:02:11.000 But it blew my mind because I knew the case.
02:02:13.000 It was out of Illinois.
02:02:14.000 It was a woman who worked at O'Hare Airport.
02:02:18.000 And I can't remember exactly what it was.
02:02:19.000 It was like a body was found in the trunk or something.
02:02:21.000 But I'm watching this episode of, I think it's SVU, and I'm like, What is this?
02:02:25.000 It's like, How do I already know what's going to happen?
02:02:27.000 And I'm so confused.
02:02:28.000 And I'm like, Now the lady's going to run away.
02:02:31.000 I'm like, They're going to find the car.
02:02:33.000 There's the.
02:02:34.000 That's crazy.
02:02:34.000 What's going on?
02:02:35.000 And then I was like, Oh my God, this is that famous case.
02:02:38.000 They made a TV show out of it.
02:02:39.000 Oh my God.
02:02:40.000 So, what they like to do, the reason, the secret to law and order, why it's been on the air so long, is that they just look through court records for interesting cases.
02:02:46.000 That makes sense for the regular, for the OG one.
02:02:48.000 The OG one was great.
02:02:49.000 But SVU is like everyone's being raped all the time.
02:02:51.000 All the time.
02:02:52.000 And there's like 17 people are being raped and it's just crazy.
02:02:55.000 And then they're being tortured while they're being raped.
02:02:56.000 And I'm like, this doesn't happen.
02:02:57.000 And Stabler's beating them up in the interrogation room or whatever.
02:03:01.000 Yeah.
02:03:02.000 Yeah.
02:03:03.000 All right.
02:03:04.000 But, you know, they're fun shows.
02:03:07.000 I haven't seen, was it my cousin Vinny?
02:03:09.000 Yeah, the movie was a good movie.
02:03:10.000 I haven't seen it in so long.
02:03:11.000 Yeah, it was a good movie.
02:03:11.000 It's a good movie.
02:03:13.000 Is that the one where, like, the Jersey hooker lady realizes something or whatever?
02:03:13.000 They do play that.
02:03:18.000 It's like Joe Pesci.
02:03:19.000 No, no, no.
02:03:19.000 Yep.
02:03:20.000 Like, there's a woman on the stand.
02:03:21.000 Yeah, Marissa Tomei.
02:03:22.000 Yeah, she's a car.
02:03:23.000 She had a perm, right?
02:03:25.000 She would never get a perm.
02:03:26.000 Oh, no, that's legally blonde.
02:03:28.000 Oh, legally blonde.
02:03:29.000 That's legally blonde.
02:03:30.000 I love legally blonde.
02:03:31.000 That's also very realistic.
02:03:32.000 Very realistic.
02:03:33.000 Definitely.
02:03:33.000 Oh, yeah, that's right.
02:03:34.000 Elle is like, she wouldn't have done that because she's just gotten a perm and she can't get it.
02:03:37.000 That would have made the whatever go out of her hair.
02:03:39.000 Have you ever seen anything like that where the hobby of some legal expert realized a story couldn't be true because they were involved?
02:03:47.000 No.
02:03:48.000 Nothing like that.
02:03:49.000 But we do go down some rabbit holes, I will say.
02:03:50.000 Well, so what I can say is, I'm sure it's very often that someone's story might involve an esoteric story.
02:03:58.000 Like, let's say this.
02:04:00.000 Let's say, like, a skateboarder was charged with a crime or whatever.
02:04:03.000 And in his story, he mentioned doing, he said he did a McTwist down a stair set.
02:04:10.000 And you're just going, like, okay.
02:04:11.000 So, after I was skating, like, I did this McTwist on the stair set.
02:04:14.000 And then, you know, that's when I saw the body.
02:04:17.000 Anybody who skates knows he's lying.
02:04:18.000 You can't do a McTwist on a stair set.
02:04:20.000 But if you didn't skate, you'd just be like, I would have looked that up.
02:04:24.000 I would find that out.
02:04:25.000 But I don't think you can even look up McTwist and understand why it can't be done downstairs.
02:04:29.000 I would find a skater.
02:04:30.000 I would 100% find a skater.
02:04:31.000 Yeah.
02:04:31.000 Because then they'd be like, I guess technically you could do it.
02:04:36.000 It's basically a McTwist is kind of like an inverted 540.
02:04:39.000 It's a stylized 540.
02:04:40.000 I don't know how you're doing that on a stair set.
02:04:41.000 Right.
02:04:42.000 That story doesn't really make sense.
02:04:43.000 I tried to get my husband to do a stun gun on me once because I was convinced that it wouldn't leave the marks that the lady had said it was left.
02:04:49.000 And he was like, I feel really uncomfortable with this.
02:04:50.000 I was like, I need a demo.
02:04:52.000 I need to see if it'll actually leave the marks.
02:04:54.000 See, that's like the TV show, though.
02:04:55.000 No idea.
02:04:55.000 I'm like that.
02:04:56.000 Yeah, I do that.
02:04:57.000 That'd be a funny TV show.
02:04:58.000 He's like, I feel like that.
02:04:59.000 We got to prove it stunned me.
02:05:00.000 Like, I need to see what the mark looks like.
02:05:03.000 Wow.
02:05:04.000 I mean, I didn't think the mark matched.
02:05:06.000 You ever feel like it's weird?
02:05:07.000 It was actually weird, huh?
02:05:08.000 Like being in a courtroom.
02:05:10.000 Does that ever feel like weird?
02:05:11.000 Because you're playing a role.
02:05:13.000 It is like acting, but I love it.
02:05:13.000 Yeah.
02:05:15.000 It was very weird testifying on the stand.
02:05:16.000 It was like, that's weird.
02:05:17.000 This is what I wanted to say.
02:05:19.000 Surreal.
02:05:20.000 The last thing I'll say is we wrap up.
02:05:22.000 The emotional manipulation always, like, have you guys seen good lawyers who have done an Oscar winning performance with crying?
02:05:34.000 Because what I would do to those female jurors, I would have them bawling their eyes out and begging for Kleenex as I told this story to defend or prosecute.
02:05:44.000 You want the jury to feel what it's like to sit in your client's chair.
02:05:49.000 So that is, but we call it storytelling, you know?
02:05:52.000 But what we try to do is we try to do storytelling because we want the jury to understand what it feels like in the jury.
02:05:56.000 How far can you go with it?
02:05:58.000 You go as far as the judge will let you.
02:05:58.000 It's a layer.
02:06:00.000 I mean, you should test the judge, right?
02:06:02.000 If you really want to push the boundaries, you just keep going and going and going.
02:06:05.000 So if you said something like, hey, calm down.
02:06:07.000 What if you said, You can directly address the jury, right?
02:06:11.000 We can talk to the jury, but only during certain arguments.
02:06:15.000 But like in closing?
02:06:16.000 Yeah.
02:06:17.000 Okay, so.
02:06:17.000 Oh, yeah.
02:06:17.000 Oh, yeah.
02:06:18.000 Closing, I'm talking right at him.
02:06:19.000 What if you said, I want you all to close your eyes right now?
02:06:23.000 I want you to imagine the look on your child's face.
02:06:26.000 Yeah.
02:06:26.000 I want you to feel.
02:06:28.000 State can't do that.
02:06:29.000 But defense can.
02:06:30.000 And you can.
02:06:31.000 We can do certain, yeah.
02:06:32.000 But would you get away with this?
02:06:33.000 Certain parts of it, yeah.
02:06:34.000 I want you to start getting in trouble when you start saying, just imagine yourself as the victim here.
02:06:39.000 You know, how would you feel if this had happened to you?
02:06:42.000 I want you to imagine.
02:06:44.000 That moment when you woke up, you saw your child, they look up to you, they're everything.
02:06:51.000 You're their everything.
02:06:51.000 They love you.
02:06:52.000 You love them.
02:06:53.000 You would do anything for them.
02:06:54.000 I want you now to imagine everything's blurry.
02:06:59.000 And when you wake up, you are holding your child's dead body.
02:07:01.000 You could do that.
02:07:02.000 You're allowed to do that.
02:07:03.000 Yep.
02:07:03.000 And then you start crying.
02:07:05.000 Yeah.
02:07:05.000 And then you say, you realize what you've done.
02:07:07.000 I mean, what the best lawyers do is they make, you need to make your technical legal argument.
02:07:11.000 You mentioned earlier, maybe it was the prior show.
02:07:14.000 Of in your closing argument, you're speaking to the jury instructions, right?
02:07:17.000 Because it's an algorithm the jury has to follow.
02:07:20.000 They have little verdict boxes, and you want to make their job easy.
02:07:24.000 So, you want to kind of explain to them, this is how I want you to do this to equip my client.
02:07:28.000 So, what if you said you're holding your child's dead body, your hands around their neck?
02:07:35.000 You couldn't have done that.
02:07:37.000 There's no way you would have ever done that.
02:07:40.000 Something was within you that you lost control.
02:07:44.000 And I think it starts to get problematic.
02:07:45.000 That's when the judge is going to be like, stop.
02:07:47.000 Yeah, the defense could do that, though.
02:07:48.000 The defense can get away with that.
02:07:50.000 Yeah, the state would have a hard time doing that.
02:07:50.000 Yeah.
02:07:52.000 Because what I would want to do is I'd want to say.
02:07:53.000 It's prejudicial, it's inflammatory.
02:07:55.000 I'm sure they would object just to cause a scene and then it would be okay.
02:07:58.000 They want to interrupt the storytelling too to break the emotion.
02:08:00.000 Of course.
02:08:00.000 That'd be.
02:08:01.000 That's what I would do.
02:08:01.000 Yeah.
02:08:02.000 But you basically say, like, do you feel it is possible for a loving mother, the way you've felt with your kids, do you think it's possible that in your sound, being sound of mind, you would do that?
02:08:15.000 You could do that.
02:08:16.000 I don't think it would work very well, though.
02:08:17.000 You know?
02:08:18.000 Not for the defense.
02:08:19.000 No, I don't think that would work that well for the defense.
02:08:21.000 Getting them all crying?
02:08:22.000 In this case, for example, you don't want them thinking about what happened because what happened is awful.
02:08:28.000 You want them thinking about her mental illness.
02:08:31.000 So that would probably backfire, but you could do that.
02:08:33.000 And I would say, with the crying, I mean, you asked about the crying, like if it's natural, but that's kind of, I don't know.
02:08:39.000 I haven't seen a lot of lawyers cry in court.
02:08:41.000 That's why I'm not a lawyer and I wouldn't presume to know, but like some of the most impactful fundraising I've ever done is when I started crying and got them crying.
02:08:52.000 And then they hand over their wallet.
02:08:54.000 Oh, if you get the jury crying for your case, yeah.
02:08:57.000 That's what I'm saying.
02:08:57.000 Yeah.
02:08:58.000 The reason, so if you want to invoke crying in someone else, particularly with a woman.
02:09:02.000 I've definitely had jurors cry.
02:09:04.000 You need to be crying a little bit yourself.
02:09:05.000 Yeah.
02:09:05.000 Because women are more empathic or empathetic.
02:09:09.000 Yeah.
02:09:10.000 Guys will be aggressive.
02:09:11.000 So actually, some guys, it's tough.
02:09:14.000 Depending on the subject matter, if you try pulling my heart is breaking for this loss, a guy might get mad at you.
02:09:19.000 Wow.
02:09:20.000 Guys might get aggressive and they'd be like, stop being a bitch.
02:09:20.000 Yeah.
02:09:23.000 Yeah.
02:09:24.000 There's a few things that's true, though.
02:09:25.000 There's a few things you can get away with with men in emotional manipulation, like your kids dying or your dog dying.
02:09:33.000 But there are some things where you never know, it's risky, where if you try to pull on the heartstrings of a guy, see, so I'll put it this way.
02:09:40.000 It could backfire.
02:09:42.000 When, see, I don't know, like when I was a little kid, if I stubbed my toe, I'd cry.
02:09:47.000 It's like uncontrollable.
02:09:49.000 You know, it's just like, then after puberty, I get angry.
02:09:54.000 When my skateboard hits my shins, I'm beat red with rage, punching something, angry in the pain.
02:09:59.000 And so I think for a lot of guys, testosterone may do this.
02:10:03.000 Guys don't get sad about things, they get angry about them happening.
02:10:07.000 So you run that risk.
02:10:08.000 Women will empathize with you and have a sympathetic response.
02:10:11.000 So if you start welling up, they're always crying.
02:10:15.000 Oh my God.
02:10:17.000 And then you wanna inject that emotion.
02:10:20.000 I'll tell you, you really learn your jury.
02:10:22.000 Because I mean, when you do void here, like you're asking them personal questions, very personal questions.
02:10:26.000 And then you watch them, especially like this case, like a six weeks trial.
02:10:30.000 I mean, you know what they said in Voitier.
02:10:32.000 So I've already identified who you are and who you are.
02:10:35.000 So when I'm making a certain argument, I'm making it to you.
02:10:38.000 I'm making it to you.
02:10:39.000 Like, I know because you told me that you had been in a car accident.
02:10:42.000 And so I'm making an argument and I know you're going to take that back in the jury room and you're going to talk about that.
02:10:46.000 You told me that your mom did something.
02:10:48.000 And so I'm talking to you about that.
02:10:50.000 Do you guys write down the jurors and then you have like mini profiles on them?
02:10:55.000 Oh, yeah.
02:10:55.000 Yeah.
02:10:56.000 And then at some point, I imagine you've like, I think we've convinced.
02:11:00.000 One, four, three, nine.
02:11:02.000 Right.
02:11:02.000 We always, well, we always kind of try to figure it out.
02:11:05.000 And there's usually some jurors that we weren't thrilled about being on the jury because you can't get rid of everybody.
02:11:09.000 You only can get rid of nine.
02:11:10.000 So there's always the jurors you love.
02:11:12.000 The jurors you love, I always say, state cuts, they're gone.
02:11:15.000 The jurors I love, you know, like we're not going to get our favorites.
02:11:19.000 I always tell my clients that.
02:11:20.000 So, we're going to get people in the middle of the road.
02:11:21.000 But there's always going to be a couple that you're like, I didn't really want them on the jury, but they were, you know, the best out of what was left.
02:11:27.000 And those are the ones that you're kind of like not really talking to, but there's a couple that you're talking to and you're kind of hoping that they become the four person because the four person can be sort of.
02:11:35.000 And keep in mind, when you're going into trial, you already know what the legal arguments and evidence is going to be, right?
02:11:40.000 In theory, the trial should be completely scripted for you.
02:11:43.000 It's only a blank slate for the jury.
02:11:45.000 And because you know what the legal arguments and evidence are going to be, you're already thinking not just about your opening statement, you're thinking about your Closing statement, and you're thinking about what you want available as building blocks for that closing statement.
02:11:57.000 So, when you're doing voidir, you're looking for the jury for signs that you can leverage in that closing statement.
02:12:03.000 What's voidir?
02:12:05.000 Oh, it's when you select the jury.
02:12:06.000 So, voidir, it's French to find the truth, which is crazy.
02:12:10.000 So, you're actually trying to get jurors to talk to you.
02:12:13.000 So, we're allowed to ask them certain questions.
02:12:15.000 Some judges give us a little more leeway.
02:12:17.000 The judges that do give us leeway, I can tell you my cases, they're usually won or lost in jury selection.
02:12:21.000 And I can tell you once my jury's seated, they probably already know my theory of the case before they've heard anything about it.
02:12:25.000 I think, uh, I think the defense should have final say on all jurors.
02:12:30.000 I do too.
02:12:31.000 And I think we should be able to talk to them.
02:12:32.000 Like in the federal system where they just put them on you, it's ridiculous.
02:12:35.000 My peers, what does that mean?
02:12:37.000 My peers.
02:12:38.000 That's really just.
02:12:39.000 That's why it's the choice of the accused to choose who his peers are.
02:12:42.000 Yeah.
02:12:43.000 It's a fair cross section, is what they say.
02:12:45.000 You disagree?
02:12:46.000 No, I agree.
02:12:47.000 In fact, that's literally what it means.
02:12:49.000 It was an option under English law where the peers could have a jury of other lords to sit on them.
02:12:55.000 Yes.
02:12:56.000 How would the common people know?
02:12:57.000 Right.
02:12:58.000 Common people couldn't decide.
02:12:59.000 The reason why is because.
02:13:01.000 If you're someone whose children were killed and someone who killed children and you have a jury, none of them have kids.
02:13:06.000 That's hard.
02:13:06.000 Right.
02:13:07.000 Yeah.
02:13:07.000 Come on.
02:13:08.000 We do got to wrap it up.
02:13:09.000 We are over, but I want to give a shout out to Hades.
02:13:11.000 He said they want us to check this out real quick.
02:13:13.000 A mother in 1954 drowned her three children.
02:13:16.000 When the system took it easy on her, she did it again.
02:13:18.000 She had kids.
02:13:19.000 We were just talking about that case.
02:13:21.000 Lag them up.
02:13:22.000 We're going to wrap it up.
02:13:22.000 It's Labor Day weekend.
02:13:23.000 You guys got to get on the road.
02:13:24.000 We got to get on the road.
02:13:25.000 It's burger time.
02:13:27.000 It's the last time to get a good swim in.
02:13:29.000 Don't miss out.
02:13:30.000 Thanks for hanging out.
02:13:31.000 Follow me on X and Instagram at Timcast.
02:13:33.000 And actually, we had a great conversation.
02:13:35.000 These fine lawyers here will be joining me on the Tim Pool Show on Sunday.
02:13:38.000 Check out the Tim Pool Show on Rumble and YouTube.
02:13:39.000 Subscribe.
02:13:40.000 Y'all want to shout anything out?
02:13:42.000 Sure.
02:13:42.000 Attorney Andrew Branca, do criminal defense, specialize in self defense law.
02:13:45.000 Get my free book, Be Hard to Convict, if you ever have to defend yourself, at law self defense.com and follow my political commentary at the Branca Show on X and YouTube.
02:13:55.000 And I'm Ashley Merchant.
02:13:56.000 I'm a criminal defense attorney out of Atlanta, Georgia, and I'm the host of the MK True Crime Podcast.
02:14:01.000 Thanks.
02:14:02.000 Take it away, Richie.
02:14:03.000 Richie McGinnis on all social media platforms just launched the YouTube.
02:14:07.000 Check that out.
02:14:08.000 And check out Politibrawl, where I work with Matt.
02:14:10.000 And I also wrote a book called Riot Diet.
02:14:12.000 Check it out.
02:14:14.000 Matt Miller, editor of Politibrawl.
02:14:16.000 Check us out on Substack and Politibrawl Streetcast on YouTube for our man on the street videos and investigations.
02:14:22.000 Follow me at Ian Crossland.
02:14:23.000 It's my name.
02:14:24.000 You get me on X, you know, YouTube and Instagram, I think are the best places to follow me at Ian Crossland.
02:14:30.000 Carter Banks.
02:14:31.000 Yeah.
02:14:33.000 Man, I got to put two mics here.
02:14:34.000 You Y'all can't see me on screen, so I'll do one of these.
02:14:37.000 But yeah, you can follow me at Carter Banks.
02:14:38.000 It's been a pleasure having all of you.
02:14:40.000 Great conversation.
02:14:41.000 And yeah, have a great Labor Day weekend, everyone.
02:14:44.000 We're back on Tuesday.
02:14:46.000 Actually, we're back on Sunday.
02:14:47.000 You can watch the Sunday Tim Pool show.
02:14:48.000 But then we'll be back on Tuesday because it's Labor Day.
02:14:51.000 Thanks for hanging out.
02:14:51.000 We'll see y'all then.